Pantheon kickstarter

[Rec]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen

brad is our savior

[JayN]

Damn it SOUNDS Really good!

good staff team also

[JayN]

wonder if Velious will beat this games release!

[Rec]

3 years out, i think even velious might win

[Tecmos Deception]

In a time long past and forgotten, many worlds became one. When there was nothing but darkness an astral storm ignited, ripping the walls between a thousand realities. The storm reached beyond the veils to snare fragments of life, ripping them from their origin and returning them to the darkness. Crashing upon a lifeless rock the many shards of many worlds came to unite and formed the world called Terminus.

I could not, for the life of me, read that entire paragraph.

[Sobee101]

Backed :) get a P99 guild going :P

[Eldaran]

I was gonna post this! I backed it and am very very very excited to get the opportunity to see another of Brad's creations! :D :D :D :D

[Eldaran]

Backed :) get a P99 guild going :P

Do it!

[Sobee101]

Do it!


If there is interest and people willing to share the load i would be more than happy to get something rolling. Already have a vent i could expand on... but seeing i work full time and have family commitments my time is not as plentiful as it once was, I would need other mature P99 players to make this work.

[Rec]

alpha is easy to get in on, they made it so cheap compared to other kickstarters

[Eldaran]

I work from home so have a lot of spare time during eastern time business hours. My time is limited during the evenings, but i do play for a couple hours most nights. I'll add you to friends, we can talk on messages if you want.

[Sobee101]

Sounds great to me :)

[Grubbz]

800k goal in 40 days? i dont know if they will hit that mark.

[Eldaran]

800k goal in 40 days? i dont know if they will hit that mark.

I'm really hoping they do. There are a lot of old EQ players out there floating around still looking for a home game. I know I'm one of them. All we can do is share and hope.

[Rhambuk]

Thats a game I can get excited about. Hope he hits his marks and doesn't have to compromise his game for funding.

[Grubbz]

Im done with EQ once TESO launches but i hope you guys find a new game for the future and i really do hope this project succeeds

[Rhuobhe]

Support this. This is the REAL Everquest 2

[Rec]

Camelot unchianed hit 2 million for a niche pvp game. 800k is a problem?

[Grubbz]

That it may be but sadly i don't think you can have a real "Everquest" game anymore. Everquest was a hardcore grinding game and there are very few people who will play a game like that in this generation. I cant see any game that is not quest driven have a solid million+ playerbase.

I really do hope i am wrong, everquest was the best mmo ever.

[Rhambuk]

150 pledgers right now, $12,897 with 39 days to go.

on the fast track in my opinion

[Pringles]

Pledged.

[Genedin]

Alpha is not until 2017 though... I'll forget this game existed by then. Still backing though. Damnit.

[Rec]

I can't believe alpha is january 2017 when the kickstarter lists january 2017 for both alpha and beta. I am sure something will be clarified.

[Enxienty]

Everquest was like that too though, there's times where you wanna ragequit out but something draws you back to it.

There's no doubt if that if this game is anything close to EQ1 , it will succeed

[IronLionn]

sounds like a crackhead asking for money for drugs.

"what you gonna do with that money i gave you?"

"aww man why u gotta ask that? ummm theres gonna be groups, and elves and dragons, its gonna be a friggen mmo experience alright?" *itches face* *glances around nervously*

[a_gnoll_pup]

*glances around nervously*

An iron lion glances nervously about.

[Pringles]

Alpha is not until 2017 though... I'll forget this game existed by then. Still backing though. Damnit.

My thoughts exactly heh.

[Loto]

Meh. Promises alot. So did EQNext. And then we hit the debut, and now we call it LionkingQuest.

We are about as critical of MMO's as anyone will ever get. Nothing will satisfy our thirst for a new Everquest.

Except Velious. And Teams.

[Bruman]

Pledged.

[MrSparkle001]

"emphasis on grouping"

"group focused"

"for players who like to group"

See to me that all means "you cannot solo" and I don't like that. I like being able to solo, being able to log on whenever I want and play without having to rely on others all the time or spending half my gaming session LFG. Everquest was the first and last game I've played where you are forced to group with others for everything. Even WoW lets you solo a lot of it's content. You have to group for dungeons but you don't have to group just to take on some of the open world content.

Grouping has it's place, and soloing has it's place. One should not be emphasized over the other, and Brad seems to have a hard-on for forced grouping.

[Eldaran]

"emphasis on grouping"

"group focused"

"for players who like to group"

See to me that all means "you cannot solo" and I don't like that. I like being able to solo, being able to log on whenever I want and play without having to rely on others all the time or spending half your gaming session LFG. Everquest was the first and last game I've played where you are forced to group with others for everything. Even WoW lets you solo a lot of it's content. You have to group for dungeons but you don't have to group just to take on some of the open world content.

"group

Why are you even on an Eq forum then? Did you solo all of EQ?

[MrSparkle001]

Why are you even on an Eq forum then? Did you solo all of EQ?

I dabble in EQ occasionally still but I mostly solo when I do, and it's never a serious grinding session or anything. I don't have the time or patience to LFG all the time. I did 13 years ago when I played this live but not now.

It's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to ESO so much. I can group, and have to for certain dungeons and probably for PvP, but for the most part I can run around soloing doing whatever the hell I want, just like everyone else is doing, and jump in and help others and have others help me without having to be in an actual group splitting loot and all that. You know throughout both betas I never once actually grouped with anyone, and yet I did quests and killed mobs with other players all the time, almost as often as soloing.

[Eldaran]

Sounds like you enjoy the modern mmo experience. You can probably still solo in Pantheon by doing less challenging things. Like soloing blues.

[citizen1080]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/neil-patrick-harris-poop.gif








On a more serious note, that Kickstarter fund can buy a lot of crack.









On a even more serious note.....Vanguard 2.0 Please w/ sufficient budget and not rushed out the door please.

[Rhuobhe]

I dabble in EQ occasionally still but I mostly solo when I do, and it's never a serious grinding session or anything. I don't have the time or patience to LFG all the time. I did 13 years ago when I played this live but not now.

It's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to ESO so much. I can group, and have to for certain dungeons and probably for PvP, but for the most part I can run around soloing doing whatever the hell I want, just like everyone else is doing, and jump in and help others and have others help me without having to be in an actual group splitting loot and all that. You know throughout both betas I never once actually grouped with anyone, and yet I did quests and killed mobs with other players all the time, almost as often as soloing.

Stay golden bro

[Rec]

30k they're rich!

[Rallyd]

put 150$ into it, Brad is a god.

[Nune]

Semi- off topic, on Kickstarter, if they miss their mark do

a) you get your money back?

b) if they're waaay short of their mark, and (for samples sake have to have SoE then fund it) do you get your money back?

[Rec]

if they don't make it in any way you get your money back

[citizen1080]

Yep its all or nothing. I will be starting up a Kickstarter myself in the next few months. it is snowboarding related so I don't think there will be much interest on this forum but I still plan to post something when it goes live.

[Rhambuk]

you can solo in eq, and not just the solo classes, if you really want to just hop on for a little bit and kill at your leisure theres nothing stopping that. I solod my war to 42 here on p99 no issues.

was it as fast, reliable, or safe as a necro or druid no it wasn't but It was doable, faster than grouping would have been.

the biggest thing about games that promote group group group is that they want to have a good community not a nice little community over here and a bunch of soloers who don't care just don't screw with me, and it does nothing but cause strife.

[citizen1080]

Not a fan of the stretch goals...if we don't pass 800k we don't get 70% of the game apparently.

4.7m to get EQ

[dre]

They are making this game in Unity3d

[Smedy]

wasn't really sold, but i'm extremely sceptical cause i know brad knows what to say to excite you, yet he has really never delivered since everquest and everquest might just have been a fluke.

not liking the animations/graphics i see, it looks like another mmorpg where they have spent way to much resources on the graphics, i'd prefer if someone made a mmorpg with minecraft type graphics cause graphics doesn't do shit for me in a rpg/mmorpg it's all about the content and gameplay/how it runs. if i have high resolution and shit runs at 50fps i ain't interested.

who knows but as the endless sceptic i'm gonna go ahead and say this is just gonna be another generic mmo title to grace my bookshelf

prove me wrong brad!

[arhalien]

backed it. The only thing I don't like too much is that the background story sounds a little bit alien for me. Anyway I think is the most promising game that I 've heard in years

[mrgoochio]

Mounts.

[Eldaran]

Hey I've started a guild site for anyone who would like to get together and theory craft, and or drool over the waiting of the game. I'd like to start a good community so when the game releases we can all rely on eachother. If you are interested check us out at http://risenkingspantheon.guildlaunch.com/. The guild name is Risen Kings which I feel fits well with the Pantheon lore. If you would like to help out or have suggestions on how to make the site better please let me know.

[Rec]

the graphics are unity placeholder, you shouldn't like them. It would be nice if they actually put that somewhere on the kickstarter so people would have some clue

[Tycko]

everything looks on track, excited to see results and help fund !

[A1551]

to clarify -- you dont get billed on kickstarter unless a project meets its funding goal

So if it fails (doesnt reach 800k)..theres no money to get back as you never actually get billed in the first place.

Also -- as to the timeline to collect funds, having longer timelines actually HURTS kickstarters statistically past a certain point. Basically if projects have more time to be funded people lose enthusiasm or sit on the sidelines with their $$$ and never come back. 40 days should be plenty to get 800,000 if this project has any chance at all -- and if an MMO kickstarter by brad mcquaid cant raise the 800k in 40 days the project has no chance to begin with.

The projects already up to 50k in the second day...thats a fairly good sign the project has a chance to fund. Now all that said..trying to make an MMO on 800k is fairly questionable. Expectations should be kept low =)

Still..even a remote possibility of them succeeding and making a game that appeals to people like us (who like things like classic EQ) is enough for me to throw my money at it and be excited! Self funding markedly reduces the amount of money the game needs to make to be successful and leaves the developer totally in control of the product, and that's certainly got me excited.

[Eldaran]

*SNIP*

Well said! That is why I chose to back it. I will definitely raise my backing $$ if they release new backing rewards for a higher tier. I'm really hoping that people like me see this Kickstarter as a chance for an MMO revolution. I've had enough of easy theme park games where everyone can solo everything but raids. I like to heal and be counted upon to be a vital group member. The social interactions I have in groups in Classic EQ blow any other game out of the water. We all need eachother to get by and thats a great way to make lasting bonds.

Can't wait to tackle this thing together.

[MrSparkle001]

Sounds like you enjoy the modern mmo experience. You can probably still solo in Pantheon by doing less challenging things. Like soloing blues.

I do, I really do. I guess now that I'm older I see games in a whole different way: I'm not at all serious about them, not at all interested in being a hardcore gamer or raider, and really just want to enjoy myself with others in a large world. It doesn't become my life (I will never, ever schedule my life around MMO raid times or anything like that) and I don't play them to make friends or be social. There's not too many other players my age to be social with anyway.

I've had enough of easy theme park games where everyone can solo everything but raids. I like to heal and be counted upon to be a vital group member. The social interactions I have in groups in Classic EQ blow any other game out of the water. We all need eachother to get by and thats a great way to make lasting bonds.

See I've never once formed a last bond over a videogame. The entire idea is alien to me. Videogames are where I go to get away from the world, including friends and family. I'm not saying I don't make friendly acquaintances in MMOs but I don't form bonds or actual friendships. I actually prefer to keep real life out of MMOs, not knowing a person's real name or anything. Once real life creeps into a game immersion and illusion are lost for me, and that avatar I'm killing undead with is now no longer Legolas Drizt the elf archer but Jack Thompson the 19 year old kid from St. Louis Missouri.

(and yes I don't like to be reminded that I'm playing games with kids :) I know I am but so long as real life never invades the game I can maintain the illusion)

[Taluvill]

They sold me at the 1800$ donation snippet that they gave us:

New Class: Druid
Got SOW?

:D

Fuck yeah! This game sounds awesome.

[Bamz4l]

lasting bonds in-game doesn't mean IRL too

[Pringles]

New tiers added, upped my pledge from 45 to 250. Lifetime sub ahhh yeah. Plus a free second account.... I hope they give it alpha / beta access.

[citizen1080]

New tiers added, upped my pledge from 45 to 250. Lifetime sub ahhh yeah. Plus a free second account.... I hope they give it alpha / beta access.

Dibs on your extra account sir!

[Pringles]

Dibs on your extra account sir!

K, but my boy will be pretty upset with you.

[citizen1080]

K, but my boy will be pretty upset with you.

halfsies?

[Pringles]

Probably not. P.S. my post count now 666, I'm out!

[citizen1080]

Probably not. P.S. my post count now 666, I'm out!

I debated that same idea when I hit 1337 and 1999.

[Eldaran]

New tiers added, upped my pledge from 45 to 250. Lifetime sub ahhh yeah. Plus a free second account.... I hope they give it alpha / beta access.

Same here man. So worth it!!!!

[Eldaran]

I do, I really do. I guess now that I'm older I see games in a whole different way: I'm not at all serious about them, not at all interested in being a hardcore gamer or raider, and really just want to enjoy myself with others in a large world. It doesn't become my life (I will never, ever schedule my life around MMO raid times or anything like that) and I don't play them to make friends or be social. There's not too many other players my age to be social with anyway.



See I've never once formed a last bond over a videogame. The entire idea is alien to me. Videogames are where I go to get away from the world, including friends and family. I'm not saying I don't make friendly acquaintances in MMOs but I don't form bonds or actual friendships. I actually prefer to keep real life out of MMOs, not knowing a person's real name or anything. Once real life creeps into a game immersion and illusion are lost for me, and that avatar I'm killing undead with is now no longer Legolas Drizt the elf archer but Jack Thompson the 19 year old kid from St. Louis Missouri.

(and yes I don't like to be reminded that I'm playing games with kids :) I know I am but so long as real life never invades the game I can maintain the illusion)

Sir, I agree with you that I don't schedule my life around video games, nor am I "hardcore". I can't get away with the 16 hour days my brother pulls because he has no girlfriend, job, or real life engagement except part time work, and if they are between jobs they only take naps and continue to game. I can't fathom that. I do however not want my hand held in game, I enjoy the downtime of medding and regenerating hp because I've had great conversations with people during those times. The fact that you might spend 5 hours together at the wall in Crushbone means that you have a significant time to learn the way eachother play and to even have a few laughs or close calls. I have made many lasting friendships throughout the years of gamers I met online and continue to talk to even though we have moved on from our games.

What Pantheon is preaching and what this Project 1999 server shows me is that I enjoy this older mentality of MMOs. Nothing has compared to EQ not just because it's EQ, but because it challenges me and delights me in all the right ways. If Pantheon can save that mentality while making a new game with new people I am sold 100%.

We are just very different people. i don't play a massively multiplayer online game to solo, although you can find me soloing if I only have a short amount of time to be online between tasks or something.

[radditsu]

This a new transformers game?

[mrgoochio]

They sold me at the 1800$ donation snippet that they gave us:

New Class: Druid
Got SOW?

:D

Fuck yeah! This game sounds awesome.

Why need SOW if have MOUNT?

[mrgoochio]

New tiers added, upped my pledge from 45 to 250. Lifetime sub ahhh yeah. Plus a free second account.... I hope they give it alpha / beta access.

What if the game goes F2P like every other MMO within <1yr?

[MrSparkle001]

I do however not want my hand held in game, I enjoy the downtime of medding and regenerating hp because I've had great conversations with people during those times.

Don't get me wrong I like that too. I quit Rift because it became so casual friendly I felt like I could beat any content blindfolded with one hand and almost no downtime. Dude they even removed falling damage. Doesn't get more newbie friendly casual than that.

My gripe is with having to group to do most things. Dungeons yeah that's fine, they're for groups. But questing? Hell no. Questing is me time. Gathering crafting components is me time. Grinding in a certain area (if I ever want to grind) is me time. Basic leveling or even camping a spot is me time.

Again, it's one reason why ESO appeals to me so much. It's a good mix of me time and group time. Some content is virtually impossible without help, but you can help and get help without having to LFG or worry about splitting loot or anything. There were plenty of quests where a bunch of us ganged up on quest mobs, and some tough quest mobs virtually impossible to solo where someone would wait until help arrived then both would kill the mob. No actual grouping required. It's perfect. Tackle that content as a group then go do your own things when done. Plus there's the fact that there's no such thing as grinding or camping or anything like EQ had, it's mostly quest-driven and that's where the major XP comes from, not from killing mobs.

(for a game called Everquest there isn't a whole lot of questing, it's mostly grouping to grind mobs or obtain items.)

[Swish]

Another 100 backers in less than a day, would love to see those $10k spots fill :)

[deezy]

I threw in $250. I hope they get enough money to include bards. I have a hard time imagining an EQ-like game without bards.

[Man0warr]

Are you guys insane? Did you play Vanguard? Brad flamed out in a drug-fueled haze last time he tried to do this.

Plus most of their team is made up of people who worked on EQ2 and Vanguard. Scott Hartsman is literally the only man I'd trust with a new MMO these days.

[Rhambuk]

Loved vanguard's design, just had no playerbase.

EQ2 was one of my favorite mmo's until they got 3 or 4 expansions deep.

Pretty pumped for this tbh.

[Rec]

There are very creative people throughout history that have done amazing things while drugged up so that part doesn't bother me

[Man0warr]

Loved vanguard's design, just had no playerbase.

EQ2 was one of my favorite mmo's until they got 3 or 4 expansions deep.

Pretty pumped for this tbh.

They built a huge world and then ran out of money to fill it, so 80% of it was barren art assets. The actual content they did get in and the classes they made were awesome.

The technical issues were what killed the game (high end computers couldnt run it smoothly in beta, chunking, etc) - no one who played the beta thought buying it at release would be a good idea - thus no playerbase.

There are very creative people throughout history that have done amazing things while drugged up so that part doesn't bother me

Has nothing to do with being creative - you can't run a company and manage your team if your high on cocaine or whatever it was they found out he was doing. People said he would literally come in some days and never leave his office.

Here's the start of a bigger rant but...

The bigger issue was the rampant nepotism going on at Vanguard - both the hiring of bad managers from the old Verant days to literal nepotism of hiring your uncle/brother/cousin to do something important when he has no business doing it. The whole MMO industry does it and it's a big reason why the same shitty games keep getting released to failure - if you fail as a producer/directory of one big MMO you can just get hired a year later to do the same job at another company (see Matt Firor now making ESO after failing with Warhammer and semi-failing with DAOC expansions).

If you suck at your job you shouldn't get another job doing the same thing after failing multiple times, but that's not how the game development industry operates.

You know who has done a good job after his predecessor failed and he finally got a chance to be the lead decision maker of an MMO? That guy that remade Final Fantasy 14 from a shitshow to a pretty decent game in less than 3 years. Other companies need to give promising junior guys more chances instead of re-hiring the same failures.

[Rec]

I don't care that he flopped on vanguard. We'll have no games if we got rid of the people who flopped on a game. At least he had one success that should surely command the loyalty of everyone here.

[Byrjun]

Are you guys insane? Did you play Vanguard? Brad flamed out in a drug-fueled haze last time he tried to do this.

From a design perspective, Vanguard was the best MMO I ever played.

It was plagued by technical problems and business drama. Get rid of that shit and we would have had a real EQ 2. Hoping Pantheon can be it.

[Swish]

It was plagued by technical problems and business drama. Get rid of that shit and we would have had a real EQ 2.

I was one of the many 100s of people raging on the forums about what happened at the time... it really was better than EQ2 ever could have been.

[Eldaran]

I agree that Vanguard at a design and concept level was amazing and definitely the spiritual successor to classic Everquest 1. I think Brad has the best idea of what I want to play in an MMO and I will probably always give him another chance. I am very excited that he is back in the game making business and hopefully he will have enough time and money to make it 100% what he wants without being a slave to big company deadlines.

[Rec]

Brad is getting nervous we have to get the word out more

[Rec]

woot someone bought one of their own raid zones

[Eldaran]

Brad is getting nervous we have to get the word out more

Hell I'm nervous. I started a pre-launch guild and am way too excited about this game. I NEED it to be successful during this KS campaign! GAHHHHHH!!!

[Eldaran]

The Kickstarter has now received over 100k in pledges! Hoping this trend continues and someone even bought one of the 10k pledges last night!

[eqravenprince]

I do wish Brad the best on creating this game. But the rewards need to be better for me to donate. The first 100,000 backers of $50 or more should get a free copy of the game and 2 year membership, and alpha/beta invite. There's 5,000,000 million to cover just about the entire list of goals. What is scaring me away right now is only 1,008 backers. I wish I knew how many people are thinking about backing but haven't yet.

[moklianne]

I do wish Brad the best on creating this game. But the rewards need to be better for me to donate. The first 100,000 backers of $50 or more should get a free copy of the game and 2 year membership, and alpha/beta invite. There's 5,000,000 million to cover just about the entire list of goals. What is scaring me away right now is only 1,008 backers. I wish I knew how many people are thinking about backing but haven't yet.

Its a subscription based game. They would lose some serious money if they did a 2 year membership for only $45.

[Jobober]

This is absolutely worth supporting already dropped $5,000 on it.

[moklianne]

This is absolutely worth supporting already dropped $5,000 on it.

I dropped $250 on it. Lifetime sub for $1 yearly will be worth it after 1.5-2 years.

I hope they hit the $800K. I'm nervous that they won't make it. They can always release the stretch goal content in paid for expansions down the road. If the content is there, I have no problem whatsoever in going back to original EQ game/expansion/sub model.

[Rec]

Some idiot in the comments section of the kickstarter that says everyone wants it to be everquest next.

[Gaffin 3.0]

2 new question and answer vids, really interested in this game so far

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9nYMMluAMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slve6F4aM9w#t=38

[eqravenprince]

Its a subscription based game. They would lose some serious money if they did a 2 year membership for only $45.

As of right now with the kickstarter awards being as shitty as they are, the risk they are running is not getting nearly enough cash to get this thing off the ground. But I hope I'm wrong.

[A1551]

What is scaring me away right now is only 1,008 backers. I wish I knew how many people are thinking about backing but haven't yet.

It'll fund..125k on day 4 is great. The question more likely is how much in excess for 800k will they hit. The majority of the backers out there who will eventually back it haven't even heard this exists yet.

If you look at kickstarted games with similar goals they usually fail miserably (this ones already past that) or they end up getting a very large percentage of their donations towards the end.

As an example, a very recent game with a similar goal (500k) was The Mandate. Looking at the daily pledges they averaged about $11.5k a day overall and hit 700k in the end. However, of that 700k they made ~$420k(!!) in the last 25% of their time. Obviously each project varies but as a trend that is generally true.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1964463742/the-mandate/dailypledges.png

[Grimfan]

Also I'd like to add, while they are stretch goals there's nothing that says this game cannot be like Star Citizen and keep taking your money after the kickstarter ends. They can add more incentives on their website as well like having some sort of set of heirloom gear or whatever that you can add on for another 250$ for your pledge and all kinds of shit. I mean what, Star Citizen is working on its 37 million dollar goal right now. Even if this only hits 800k now does not mean it will not hit 5+ million in the future to allow the features that make it like EverQuest.

I wouldn't sweat it, I think there is a big enough market for his game.

[dre]

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/minichart.png (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/)

[Swish]

Need some of those big 10k packages to start moving...

[Gaffin 3.0]

yall hatin

[Thulack]

Giving out Naming rights to over 2300 items seems like a stretch to me lol.

[moklianne]

totally gonna make it.

They had the initial bump, then another large bump when they introduced the $250 tier due to essentially lifetime subscriptions. I do worry about the longevity of the pledging support though. Its an incoming trickle currently. Stretch goals can always be repackaged into expansions. If the core game is great with enough content, most will gladly pay for them in expansions. If for no other reason than to say "Thank you" to Brad for his work on EQ1 and Vanguard. They don't concern me at all.

[Brad_mo123]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen

-group focused!
-unique classes that play like EQ monk or enchanter!
-Hard and rewarding dungeons and raids!
-For a target audiance, not all things for all people!
-Pantheon will feature traditional spells like root, snare and mesmerize and you’ll also be able to fizzle your heart away like the good old days of EverQuest, so get to practicing!

I have high hopes for this.

[Rhambuk]

yes can't wait!

just fyi this is at least the 3rd if not 4th post about this game 1 is only a few threads down :)

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

I pledged.

[Brad_mo123]

I like how EQ Titanium is on the bookshelf to the top left of the screen.... wonder what he does with that, I bet hes Sirken. http://pjpantheon.com/threads/pantheon-kickstarter-q-a-2.112/

[Grubbz]

Im sorry to tell you guys but there will NEVER EVER BE ANOTHER GAME LIKE EVERQUEST. Everquest required tons and tons of time to play, remember back in 1999? How long did it take to get 1 level? Do you really REALLY think the kids of todays generation (the core consumers the mmo companies focus on) can and will set through those hell levels like we did back in day? HELL NO and we also had AOL to deal with.

You guys can all hope and dream for the next everquest game but it will just never happen, the loyal fanbase has grown up and the new generation of kids will not play a game that makes you grow a neckbeard.

Its the reason why wow is so popular, deal with it.

[JackFlash]

Another thread about "breaking" news.....

[Rec]

they have a tier for now for what is basically going to be internal testing. Don't let that one run out, grab it now

[Brad_mo123]

Im sorry to tell you guys but there will NEVER EVER BE ANOTHER GAME LIKE EVERQUEST. Everquest required tons and tons of time to play, remember back in 1999? How long did it take to get 1 level? Do you really REALLY think the kids of todays generation (the core consumers the mmo companies focus on) can and will set through those hell levels like we did back in day? HELL NO and we also had AOL to deal with.

You guys can all hope and dream for the next everquest game but it will just never happen, the loyal fanbase has grown up and the new generation of kids will not play a game that makes you grow a neckbeard.

Its the reason why wow is so popular, deal with it.

They are going for a targeted audience, not for "the kids of today" First mmo in a long ass time that has the balls to make a truely enjoyable game for one audience and not a mass market. It might not make the numbers WoW did back when it was the highest populated mmo but it will have enough to make profit I predict. FYI, if you think WoW has the highest population.. you are living under a rock my friend, that ship sailed after lich king.

[Grubbz]

Brad_mo123;1279657It might not make the numbers WoW did back when it was the highest populated mmo but it will have enough to make profit I predict. FYI, if you think WoW has the highest population.. you are living under a rock my friend, that ship sailed after lich king.

Sorry to tell you but wow, even at 6mil active subbs still beats every mmo on the market, hell i would be shocked if anything besides ff14 had more then a million subbs. Keep on dreaming for the mmo that can live up to our everquest standards.

[Rec]

you poor baby

[Bamz4l]

even some of the kids today realize they are being spoonfed/handheld in MMOs and want more challenge, risk vs reward

[Grozmok]

I'm down.

[oldhead]

Need some of those big 10k packages to start moving...

If I wasnt a working stiff with wife/kids I'd totally splurg 10k for a trip out there.

[stormlord]

People need to realize we're not talking about EQ1 here. We're talking about a game that might have some similarities to EQ1, but it'll be modern in most other ways you can imagine.

Whatever lessons Brad carried with him from Vanguard is probably what he's taking with him into this. So in fact I'd say his new game idea is probably more related to Vanguard than EQ1.

Now, there's a market for "tough" games. But when I say "tough" I don't mean EQ1 as it used to be.

I play Wurm Online and in many ways it's more hardcore than EQ1 was. It has corpse runs. It doesn't have an in-game map. There's no in-game radar. There's no instant travel. There's skill loss when you die. The forests are very thick in non-winter months and it's hard to see monsters. New players are thrown into the world, basically. Creatures don't even have hovering names above them nor do they light up if you target them. And so on. I know some players do not like these kinds of features, but for me it has always increased the tension and I like it. Some players will just never get it and will never like games with this. I guess all I got to say is I like it. The danger makes sucks me into the game and it's satisfying. Other games feel too safe.

Wurm Online it has many improvements over EQ1. The most important improvement to me is its sandbox. One thing I never liked much about EQ1 was the world didn't really change and the players weren't able to shape the world. A sandbox allows this and it in turn makes it more lifelike. Another improvement is its skill-based system which I think is more freeform than EQ1. While I think classes offer a lot more direction to players, they can also be a hindrance for the same reason. They tend to focus so much on giving direction they kill the feeling of character development. I say this because character development is as much choice as it's progression. When I have a path prearranged for me then I'm not making choices and it's not character development.

In some ways, Wurm Online falls far short of my ideal mmorpg. Its skills are underdeveloped in many cases and as a result there's a lot of grind. Another problem is how players come together in villages and because of how the skills work they're encouraged to grind for high skill and/or use too few skills. I've suggested several ways to address the problem in their forums, but I don't think anybody is listening. Unfortunately, I feel this is a very serious problem. It's producing negative effects players are mistaking for other things.

I will say though Wurm Online had a tremendous impression on me in 2012 and into 2013. The memories I'll take with me I'll cherish. Wurm Online is the best mmo experience I've ever had, greater than EQ1. What it boils down to is the tension; the danger. And also the sandbox. Those two things stand out to me. It all combined to create an incredible immersion that absorbed me completely and had its way with me.

Wurm Online was like a kiss from an angel. Of course, all good things eventually come to an end. I don't know where Wurm Online will go from here, but it'll probably mudflate and become more carebear-ish. You know every game that's hard-ish is always pushed to become more carebear-ish by the casuals. I have no hate towards casuals and I don't go after their games, but when they come after mine I don't like it. I've had some crashes with it last month that turned me off and so I did other things. Crashing is somethign I just can't stomach. Evenso, I built a nice place and made a boat and saw a lot of things during that time.

Other mmo's I'm interested in are Mortal Online and Secret World and Xyson, I've just never tried them. I tend to like MMO's with more risk and punishment and less hand holding.

Right now I"m not playing any mmo's. Been playing single player games. In fact, for the first time ever, I played Fallout 1. I was lucky GoG allow members to buy Fallout 1/2 for free free pre-2014. I finished Fallout 1 and it was a great experience to play a classic game and come away with lessons from it. I don't think anybody will even notice this post or even get as far as to read this, but if you try Fallout 1 you should keep in mind it has far less content than Fallout 2 and if you're not careful it'll cause you a lot of pain. A lot of hte pain has to do with crits and radiation damage. Some of these problems are in Fallout 2 too. Other than that, some players complain about irreversible changes, but most aren't game stopping and I like to play through it.

[Ennewi]

The more people post this damn game repeatedly the more I hope it fails miserably.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mK2fNG26xFg

[Rec]

People need to realize we're not talking about EQ1 here. We're talking about a game that might have some similarities to EQ1, but it'll be modern in most other ways you can imagine.


3. EQ is definitely the foundation we are building everything upon.

-Brad

Damn I'm good

Can you feel that captain compost?

[Rec]

Both 10ks sold out in under an hour!

[stormlord]

3. EQ is definitely the foundation we are building everything upon.

-Brad

Damn I'm good

Can you feel that captain compost?
EQ1 serving as the inspiration or foundation does not mean the game will be EQ1.

Actually, if you watch the Kickstarter Q&A video you'll see Brad explicitly respond to a question about corpse runs and big penalties and other like things causing you to grind which were associated to EQ. He responds by saying difficult is what they want, not tedious or repetitive. In fact, if you watch the rest of the video you'll see it's clear this game is not going to be EQ1. Just a minute or two after his comment about what difficult gameplay means, he also responds to a question about raids and states his aim with this game is to try to merge raiding and grouping in such a way they're not two separate areas. He also mentions adding instances for groups along with an open world - which btw was not in eq1 until ldon.

It's pretty clear to me Vanguard IS fueling some of his ideas too.

If the game was EQ1 exactly with just better graphics, I wouldn't even consider playing. Why? Because I expect a lot more. I expect things to improve and more to be added and for more engaging things. I may favor higher penalties than normal and also prefer less hand holding, but I don't like repetitive gameplay.

He does make a comment at one point that turns me off somewhat. It's something I've heard before. The arguemnt developers use is they don't make NPC's smart because that wouldn't be fun. One common scenario they spin is if NPC's always attacked the player cleric(s) first or if they maximized their dps or healing to prolong a fight. IMHO, a lot of this is based on assumption and until some developers actually try to make a game with smart NPC's, all of this pretentious banter just irritates me and makes me trust them less. I think it's precisely the dumb brained NPC's that leads to the repetitive tactics we're forced to use to kill them.

This guy has too much money and expectations running on him to do anything real risky and that's the crutch in all this. This is why I don't think the kind of games I like to come from any bigger companies or well known people. Once they become big they become risk-averse and stick to the same ol' formulas.

However, I don't care whether I like this game or not, I still want to see Brad succeed. If he doesn't succeed with this one, I hope he succeeds somewhere somehow. Just because I may not like a game, doesn't mean I can't respect the people who made it or the things I do like about it. There's always a lot to like.

[Rec]

EQ1 serving as the inspiration or foundation does not mean the game will be EQ1.

Actually, if you watch the Kickstarter Q&A video you'll see Brad explicitly respond to a question about corpse runs and big penalties and other like things causing you to grind which were associated to EQ. He responds by saying difficult is what they want, not tedious or repetitive. In fact, if you watch the rest of the video you'll see it's clear this game is not going to be EQ1. Just a minute or two after his comment about what difficult gameplay means, he also responds to a question about raids and states his aim with this game is to try to merge raiding and grouping in such a way they're not two separate areas. He also mentions adding instances for groups along with an open world - which btw was not in eq1 until ldon.

It's not going to be EQ1, but it's definitely not going to be "We're talking about a game that might have some similarities to EQ1"

put that in your pipe and smoke it

[Kagatob]

Didn't put a penny in, not gonna. I still haven't forgotten Vanguard.

[Rec]

It's amazing how you stand on your principles you should be proud

[stormlord]

There're 1359 backers at the moment. Not enough.

Just think there must be 100,000 people out there that played EQ1 that would like to see what he can do with Pantheon. If they donated $8 each it could be done. If 50,000 donated $16 each it could be done. It's just hard to get everybody in one place and coordinating. The biggest thing is there's no game right now. We can't login and try it and then donate our $8. A lot of it's on faith or maybe even something worse than that.

Look how many people are playing p1999. Every single one should be donating if they can. Granted, p1999 is free, but it's an old game and you never know when sony might decide to finally kick in the doors. People who're on p1999 need to think about the future and about whether they actually like the game. There're plenty of other free games out there that're modern and it's less likely someone will shut down the servers.

[Swish]

3 people backed $10,000 ... magically they stretched the dungeon making experience another 2 places. Fingers crossed they'll be inspiring and not just clones of Guk, SolB, Shadowfang Keep, etc etc

[Sirken]

I like how EQ Titanium is on the bookshelf to the top left of the screen.... wonder what he does with that, I bet hes Sirken. http://pjpantheon.com/threads/pantheon-kickstarter-q-a-2.112/

if you dont support pantheon, brad will ban your p99 account. thats why he has titanium.




http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p57/Paladinramoth/TinFoilHat.jpg

[Swish]

Important

Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. It is the responsibility of the project creator to complete their project as promised, and the claims of this project are theirs alone.

lol'd... and still jumped in and pledged $20

[HeallunRumblebelly]

3 people backed $10,000 ... magically they stretched the dungeon making experience another 2 places. Fingers crossed they'll be inspiring and not just clones of Guk, SolB, Shadowfang Keep, etc etc

Heh, maybe they'll be like those Neverwinter player made exp farm zones. Shit trapped in cages standing around your spawn point that you just aoe'd down. #1 Player made content!

[Itap]

I donated my life's savings

[Swish]

I donated my life's savings

It barely moved?

I've put $20 in (gonna be trolling those forums hard), I've heard reports that it's more fun than DOTA2 even pre-alpha.

[Rec]

I think the idea of someone spending 10k to keep the allmighty Estate of unrest alive for another 20 years is wonderful. We can call it The Mansion of Discord and improve every aspect of the original dungeon.

Now if the only dungeons in the game were the ones made by the 10k tiers then i would be sensitive to the lack of entirely new concepts but no way that's happening!

[stormlord]

Ain't going to make it. That graph being posted shows the story.

Brad is proposing a game that has to start another way. Even if he changed the game to be more casual he'd still struggle because others may have lost faith in his ability to run a project of this sort. Granted, a more casual offering would probably get a lot more backers. They're turned off by the heavy linkage to EQ because they remember the corpse runs and downtime associated with it. While Brad has somewhat distanced himself from those extremes, he still hasn't removed himself completely from the idea of enforcing downtime to produce social relations. On his kickstarter page, you read "A mindset that Designed Downtime should be a part of the game to ensure players have time to form important social bonds." Although in his Q&A video he uses less strong language to describe his goals and states something on the level of "We want difficult, not tedious."

This is why these kinds of less casual games have to start open source or by small indie times who work another job to pay their bills (or just happen to be fortunate). They build a prototype of the game and that's how they grab investors. If they don't find investors they better plan on paying for it themselves and getting plenty of other people to pitch in and have the expectation the graphics and other effects will be low quality.

This reminds me somewhat of Wurm Online. It had terrible graphics when it started. It did not have the time or development resources to produce high level graphics or effects. It had to focus on things it could do, like the sandbox environment or the designs for the game or the renderer or some of the textures. Many of the kinds of players which played it did not play for the graphics, but for the sandbox (much deeper than Ultima Online). Since it's less casual than average, its population has always been low. It has had several graphical updates over the past several years, but these came after the game produced some profit to pay for them.

A lot of open source (or non-commercial) games have low populations. I'm thinking of planeshift right now. The bonus is they get to do a lot of risky things they couldn't otherwise do. It frees them up.

Think about Minecraft. This JAVA game was made by one man and released in 2009. By 2013, it had sold over 12 million PC copies and over 33 million across different platforms. This is how much one person can do and it's impressive. The thing about Minecraft is it's not an mmo and it can be tailored to both casuals and non-casuals by allowing players to change how the game plays and thus it can increase its audience more. Minecraft also adopted a stylish blocky graphical style which reduced the demands. Another technique it used to reduce the demands was to procedurally generate most of its content. People who ended up playing Minecraft played it because of its sandbox, not so much its graphics. There're also now minecraft servers.

Minecraft is the World of Warcraft of single player sandbox games and even holds its ground on servers. It did all that mostly because it did what it could do, not what it couldn't do. Its creator did not start making the game with the goal of producing something on the level of a 100 million dollar production.

And that's the thing about World of Warcraft too. While it DID have millions of dollars to spend, it wisely used all of its resources to produce something that exploited every nook and cranny.

[whitebandit]

I pledged 100, will probably jump to 150 if something new and exciting pleases me...

that 250$ option for 1$/year sub is soooo tempting..

[Rec]

Ain't going to make it. That graph being posted shows the story.



Graphs mean nothing genius when graphs can't account for the surge every kickstarter gets in the last days.

[SamwiseRed]

one of the 10k donations was a player from red.

[stormlord]

Graphs mean nothing genius when graphs can't account for the surge every kickstarter gets in the last days.
That's a big surge you're expecting. Look at the possible pledges and look at the numbers. There will have to be a lot of new backers coming into the fray for it to be successful.

I just don't see that many new backers showing up. I believe there're enough people in this world to want a game like this, but I don't think it's going to happen this way. I'd be happy to be wrong.

And even if it does work do you think Brad can do better than he did with Vanguard? He's already had his chance to make a game like EQ and it barely got off hte launch pad. Prospects aren't good.

[Rec]

You are not prepared

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/541/884/9d3176970f806fc6bbf68f1c7a9628c6_large.jpg?1390158 952

[Treefall]

Anyone know if the $250 stand-alone's previous tiers includes the non-stand-alone $250 tier?

I just want to be sure before I dump $250...because I would take the $1 a year sub over super early access.

Brad did let me down for Vanguard, but I have some damn hope that's he's straightened himself out and can deliver a game that is a close, spiritual successor to EQ.

PS Someone in China please remake EQ in a modern graphics engine, k thanks.

[Rec]

At this time the pre alpha tier doesn't include the lifetime sub. They are suppose to clarify a lot of tier stuff this week so i don't know if it will continue to be that way.

[Rec]

new guild tier with pre-alpha for everyone. where are all these super p99 guilds?

[Grozmok]

Out poop socking?

I backed $250 because: nostalgia.

Brad still claims he was the fall guy for Vanguard because his name was tied to it. Professes his innocence and being forcibly required to release six months too early.

[oldhead]

Out poop socking?

I backed $250 because: nostalgia.

Brad still claims he was the fall guy for Vanguard because his name was tied to it. Professes his innocence and being forcibly required to release six months too early.

Did you ever read the 3 page blog Brad wrote in 2009 about what went down with Vangard?

Was pretty interesting. MS screwed him on funding. SoE bailed him out but pushed for early release.

Brad made mistakes in the dev and admitted as such but releasing early wasnt one of his.

[oldhead]

meh, he has since pulled them down... can not find them. Were 4 parts

http://www.bradmcquaid.com/Brad_McQuaid/Blog/Entries/2009/6/29_Vanguard__Post-mortem_Part_1.html

[stormlord]

Idk bros.

It seems that Brad and crew are wanting static classes, so your warrior will do shit dps, your druid won't be able to do anything but patch heal, your shadowknight is only good for tanking.


Without dynamic classes, shit's going to get stale as fuck unless you got the time to roll a billion alts.
World of Warcraft had static classes and had millions of subscriptions. In fact, the sum total of mmo's with static classes in the past 10 years would yield tens of millions of players.

I think these're the most important things to make an mmorpg popular:

1) Solo-play to max level for all classes with no penalty to experience versus group-play
2) Balance quest and combat experience to favor quests
3) Hand holding everywhere - in-game map/radar, glowing paths, hovering icons, quest markers, etc
4) No downtime or punishment for failure (failure, as in dying)
5) No exclusive content or locked content - all content can be completed on easy/hard
6) Fast travel and fast pickup groups for grouping games
7) Instanced content to reduce or eliminate competition for spawns and to tailor it to the player
8) Less crowd control and more action - crowd control is associated with downtime
9) Semi-dynamic content and sandbox features - becoming more popular
10) Battlegrounds-style PvP - NO open world PvP
11) Eliminate technical bloat - like excessive inventory management

Those're some things off top of my head that're more important than what you brought up. It does look to me like Brad is probably going to fudge many of those trying to make a more niche sort of game.

Besides, most games with static classes have deep classes, so players are occupied with learning them. I think the inclination with dynamic classes games is the classes will lose their depth and thus their distinctiveness. In the end, the developers will spend just as much developing it. It's just a different set of clothes.

Ideally developers would spend MORE time allowing for static classes to be dynamic, but that's not how it will be. They'll actually cut back on the class depth to make room for making them dynamic.

The question is not whether this game can get people playing, but whether it can get enough playing to pay for its planned budget. That to me is the most important part of all this. If Brad sets his expectations too high and the playerbase doesn't meet those expectations then he'll hit bottom and sell out.

My opinion is the kickstarter will fail. Brad will have to find another way or give up trying to revitalize EQ in the modern market. Maybe he should give up developing mmorpgs altogether, if he can't change.

EDIT: Tell ya what, I'll agree dynamic classes are better IF they spent extra time making the individual classes dynamic or combinable rather than cutting back on the classes to make time for it.

[Rec]

Idk bros.

It seems that Brad and crew are wanting static classes, so your warrior will do shit dps, your druid won't be able to do anything but patch heal, your shadowknight is only good for tanking.


Without dynamic classes, shit's going to get stale as fuck unless you got the time to roll a billion alts.

Sounds like you should be playing WoW

[Grozmok]

Seen this?

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/#chart-daily

[Grimfan]

Seen this?

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/#chart-daily

Not to put a fire under anyone, but many kickstarters do not see a huge amount of funding until the last week or so. There are a lot of people like me that are still considering things like the size of their wallets and other things. I imagine that projection will actually go to not making in a couple weeks with the last week being crazy as heck for them.

[baalzy]

What I want in a next gen MMO.

1) Static classes with the ability to blend attributes from other classes. See FFXIs Main/Sub job system.
2) Group combat systems that reward teamwork over DPS-zergs. See how people used to play FFXI before they realized that more DPS = faster xp. By this I mean, coordinated skill usage which results in additional effects beyond what the skills would have done individually. Example, a rogue uses 'Trip' which would normally create a small stun or snare effect just before the warrior uses 'bash' which would do a small amount of damage and a stun. The result is the mob gets knocked down (stunning it for a longer period of time than either individual ability would) AND because the mob is prone it takes increased damage from all sources for the duration of the knockdown.

3) The limited ability to solo, without making it impossible. Encourage group play but don't make solo play impossible.

4) Integrated/meaningful travel. Taking boats back in the day was a wonderful/terrorfying experience the first time or two you did it. Afterwards it was just a tedious task though. Integrate a system where the act of traveling can cause an encounter you have to battle through while you try to reach your destination but provides a spot for people who desire to just passively travel. Allowing for players to travel closer to on demand (10 minute maximum waits instead of 30 minutes) but only between major hubs. Areas that are more off the beaten path still require significant travel time or the help of classes with specific abilities for travel (ports).

5) The ability to reuse and twink with gear without massively retarded random itemization. I despise the Diablo style loot system that Blizzard introduced for WoW. Constantly changing your entire gearset every 2-3 levels and no reusability. Plus blocking equipment via level restrictions. I want to be able to go with a group to an area to gear up in a certain way and I want to be able to be able to pass that gear to other players or newer characters later on.

6) Meaningful deaths. Experience loss that is noticable as well as the travel implications of having died and not having a person nearby to resurrect you. When the worst thing that happens is you lose a trivial amount of money and have to spend maybe 5 minutes getting back to where you died it just becomes meaningless.

7) A crafting system that requires some time and effort but isn't overly bloated with absolute shit. Seriously, these systems where every mob drops 3 items for some random stupid tradeskill and your inventory just gets filled to the brim with absolute dogshit and you have to spend 20 minutes at a time sifting through it to find out if any of it is worth anything.

EQs classic crafting did this fairly well, mobs didn't inundate you with random scraps and before massive amounts of twinkage started to happen people could use tradeskills to gear themselves up at the earlier levels.

8) A certain level of respectability to quests. You don't just come into a 'quest hub' and grind through 50 quests to level up for the next quest hub with 9 out of 10 quests being functionally identical to the set of quests you just came through. Quests which require a bit of a crawl and reward you with something significant. Where there are maybe 1-2 quests you can work on at a time which require some significant investments and reward you with something significant. Instead of training every ability you get at a trainer, do a quest to earn it.

9) The ability to remort/rebuild into a 'Hero' or 'Champion' class. Once you've maxed out a class, you can go on quest which causes you to be reborn as the new class. Starting over at level 1 , naked, and requiring more time to level up but also with more power at your disposal. Make the quest sufficiently difficult that few people ever actually do this. Balance it by making the Champion classes no better than the original class at that classes particular niche (Clerics heal just as good as Champion Clerics, just Champion clerics have more DPS/CC options available type things). Making it so that champion classes are never required to participate in end-game.

10) Varied group dynamics where a group working together to take on a 'really tough' mob gets just as much (or maybe more) experience than a group who is chewing through weak mobs at a fast rate. Allowing for 'uber tanks with no dps' to match up with 'glass cannons with moderate downtime' classes

[Eldaran]

Today they confirmed the Pantheon version of the Shadow Knight class! Cleric has also been confirmed a few days ago. Looking forward to more releases this week!

[mitic]

u guys better watch this q/a vid. http://youtu.be/mMc0NC6T-VE

no pvp at launch, instanced bosszones, no extended grinding, etc. this game is shit

[Eldaran]

u guys better watch this q/a vid. http://youtu.be/mMc0NC6T-VE

no pvp at launch, instanced bosszones, no extended grinding, etc. this game is shit

Instances will be limited from what brad says. There will be open world bosses. PvP may he in at launch with proper funding. Its a stretch goal. Excessive grinding is hard to determine. I think it will still take time to level and there may very well be group based camp gameplay just like EQ. Stop trolling.

[Grozmok]

This does in fact apply to the same experiences people have when playing games like EverQuest:

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/21/all_i_needed_to_know_about_life_i_learned_from_dun geons_dragons/

[Swish]

Introducing "The Dark Knight" pals... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/725112

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/548/225/4e53aaca1221586b5b79759f75837db8_large.jpg?1390321 052

Remind you of anything?

[Eldaran]

I enjoyed that read thank you

[Eldaran]

Introducing "The Dark Knight" pals... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/725112

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/548/225/4e53aaca1221586b5b79759f75837db8_large.jpg?1390321 052

Remind you of anything?

Reminds me of the amazing EQ SK symbol. Very glad of it too.

[Rec]

These people who would pull their pledges because it's called a dark knight

[Eldaran]

I like the name. I dont care if it changes butbindoncare that the description involves raising dead servants

[Swish]

I like the name. I dont care if it changes butbindoncare that the description involves raising dead servants

Eldaran - High Elf Cleric

:D

[Eldaran]

Come on... Everyone has an SK alt right? The eq1 SK is such a cool class. Everyone was hoping for SK pets in pantheon and I believe the description confirms it.

[Eldaran]

So anyone else see about a 5k loss for today lol?

Some dude pulled his 10k again. We've gained about 5k from there.

[SamwiseRed]

3 million for pvp?


lol naw

[Grozmok]

They keep fucking around and moving the stretch goals around.

I would have thought they would have come up with that shit before they posted the kickstarter.

No wonder people are pulling funding lol.

It's like they keep moving the goal post down the field.

[Swish]

Before long every WoW kid will be naming his own item, creating a stupidly thought out dungeon and nobody will want to play :p

[Rec]

WoW kids are terrified of anything like EQ

[Eldaran]

They keep fucking around and moving the stretch goals around.

I would have thought they would have come up with that shit before they posted the kickstarter.

No wonder people are pulling funding lol.

It's like they keep moving the goal post down the field.
You can't move the pledge levels or edit them after some one backs them. They have only added some more tiers.

[Grozmok]

IIRC wasn't the UGC at like $3.5m?

Maybe I'm trippin'

[Eldaran]

IIRC wasn't the UGC at like $3.5m?

Maybe I'm trippin'

I'm sorry they did move the stretch goals because people wanted more classes and races first.

[stormlord]

EDIT: Sorry I just sprayed a wall of text. /delete

Maybe it'll reach 400k.

S*** may as well drink the koolaid. Maybe in 2017 some of us will be playing it.

[Rhuobhe]

I was expecting this to be 200k by now. Maybe there is a problem.

[Rec]

Too many people cried that shadow knight was named dark knight

[Swish]

I swear it's been sitting on about 190k for 3-4 days.

[deezy]

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/#chart-daily
The amount of funding has been decreasing every day. Rapidly on some days.

[Bruman]

There was someone who kept jerking around a $10k pledge. That's what made the last two days weird.

After that - that's 100% typical KS trends. Lots at the start, then trickles in the middle (sometimes with small boosts as the team does more media releases, new tiers, new rewards, etc), then a last large boost at the end.

All that said - the team has really went about this very poorly, and they have an uphill battle.

[Grozmok]

Too many people cried that shadow knight was named dark knight

Yeah, I don't love the name but at least the concept is the same.

I think most of the good names are taken or copy written at this point?

:cool:

[Ceythos]

Hey gang,

I'm Ceythos, one of the designers on Pantheon. I just wanted to drop in and say hello and thank you everyone for the discussion and support so far!

-Ceythos

[Ceythos]

Before long every WoW kid will be naming his own item, creating a stupidly thought out dungeon and nobody will want to play :p

That's why we put the disclaimer in that any submissions are subject to dev team approval. We're all for folks being creative (and perhaps a bit cheeky), but we have to draw the line somewhere ;)

[Thulack]

Introducing "The Dark Knight" pals... http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/posts/725112

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/548/225/4e53aaca1221586b5b79759f75837db8_large.jpg?1390321 052

Remind you of anything?

Remind me of He-Man

[nilbog]

Thank you, Ceythos.

I will donate regardless if I eventually play or not. Thanks again for continuation of mmorpg worlds!

[Rellapse36]

Nilbog getting famous

[Grozmok]

LOL

[Grozmok]

Ceythos, you went from being an Associate Game Designer to a Senior Game Designer?

That's quite the promotion.

;)

[Swish]

They broke $200,000 today.

[citizen1080]

Hey gang,

I'm Ceythos, one of the designers on Pantheon. I just wanted to drop in and say hello and thank you everyone for the discussion and support so far!

-Ceythos

Thanks for stopping by our part of the internet sir =)

Tell Brad not to let the copper counters push it out too soon! I was an alpha tester on Vanguard and enjoyed it for years...even with the disaster of a launch. If Pantheon is anything like VG I will give you lots of my money over the years.

[deezy]

Q&A #4
http://youtu.be/aIYhJi-0rpchttp://youtu.be/aIYhJi-0rpc

[Rec]

They need to take that unity placeholder screenshot with the slash off the kickstarter page. It's not doing anything positive for em, people see it and go eww.

[Swish]

29 days to go and $600,000 left.

They need to average $20689.66 per day to hit that target... it needs to pick up quickly!

[Bruman]

Well, many Kickstarters looked doomed until the last couple of days where they get a huge deluge of pledges. You can't really use trends to predict if it'll fund or not.

That said, we're in the "trickle" phase. Definitely an uphill battle. I bet we'll be doing good to have $300-350k going into the last couple of days, so even with a big pledge push at the end, I don't know if it could overcome a gap that large.

Gonna be a long 29 days.

[Rec]

new class crusader with warrior only path

dual shields option

[Rhambuk]

dual shields option

ha love it

[Ceythos]

Thanks for stopping by our part of the internet sir =)

Tell Brad not to let the copper counters push it out too soon! I was an alpha tester on Vanguard and enjoyed it for years...even with the disaster of a launch. If Pantheon is anything like VG I will give you lots of my money over the years.

The idea is to have a long Alpha and long Beta to get it right this time. We all remember the launch experience of Vanguard, so optimization, scope, and performance (as well as the time needed to refine them) is ever present in our plans.

Thank you all for the warm welcomes :)

We've got a couple interviews with Ten Ton Hammer and ZAM up today, as well as the aforementioned Crusader class information. There'll be more Q&A vids to come soon as well.

[stormlord]

I read this comment on the kickstarter comments list:
Christopher Estep about 3 hours ago

I think there needs to be a new way to "camp" items. I'm sorry, but killing a ph every 6 minutes until a rare spawn that MIGHT drop what you want IS boring. I don't know what the solution is, but sitting and doing the exact same thing for hours on end can't be the best idea that one could come up with. I like extreme effort for great rewards but that effort should be something better than "wait...pop...kill...repeat"

There's got to be a better way to have exceptionally great and rare loot require extreme effect without mindless repetition.
I COULD NOT AGREE MORE! Of all the old school mechanics in EQ1 - love em or hate em - I hated the camping mechanics! I think of all of them, that's the one I'd want killed first or redone totally.

I LIKED the kiting mechanics and root/snare/cc/debuff/etc. Glad to hear Brad wants those in Pantheon. I'd be even happier if he found a way to make it more interesting. Figuring out a camp is fun but not camping. Part of figuring out a camp was being able to kite and do all these other nifty tricks!

PS: The comment came from: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/comments

[stormlord]

Well, many Kickstarters looked doomed until the last couple of days where they get a huge deluge of pledges. You can't really use trends to predict if it'll fund or not.

That said, we're in the "trickle" phase. Definitely an uphill battle. I bet we'll be doing good to have $300-350k going into the last couple of days, so even with a big pledge push at the end, I don't know if it could overcome a gap that large.

Gonna be a long 29 days.
I don't see it happening, not enough backers, but I guess it's all good for the attention it'll get. It gets many of the former players together somewhat and gets us all thinking about the future.

One of the things which crosses my mind is how a lot of the former EQ players are older now and don't have as much time to play these kinds of games. We all know how much time was required in EQ and how much more time "we" had back then. How do you find a way to please the older generation while also pleasing the younger crowd who're newly introduced? Granted, there might not be as many young people interested in a game like this, but I think there're still a "lot" of young adults interested in a mmorpg more like the old WoW than the newer WoW. There's places popping all over for classic WoW servers. I think classic WoW potentially has a lot in common with Pantheon, more in common than many might think. Perhaps Brad or the people doing Pantheon should review what classic WoW was like and see if they can't capitalize on it.

While I've always been hardcore and thought of WoW as being a carebear mmorpg, I confess I regret not experiencing WoW before the expansions. I haven't tried it, but if I did I'd try the older version.

Of course, modern gamers have probably moved well past memories of classic WoW, but keep in mind WoW was a big phenomenon and there're still probably hundreds of thousands of them reminiscing. So even though producing a game this way isn't going to be the latest and greatest, it might still be successful. This is assuming a game similar to classic WoW would be able to capitalize on the interest shown by some former or current players of WoW. It's possible only a replica of classic WoW would be able to pull this off.

One thing I'm thinking of is Pantheon needs to find a way to make it so when you're in a group you can still ninja-afk without huge consequences. Perhaps your character can disappear when you're afk or it can become like a mercenary. Anyway, I think finding a way to make Pantheon friendly to parents (who're more susceptible to 5 minute ninja afk's) and others in general who live a busy life is not a terrible idea. And of course there're those people that just need to go to the toilet or cook something fast. All in all, it'd be nice if the game could still feel hardcore while also not making us feel like we can't afk to fulfill basic functions.

[citizen1080]

One thing I'm thinking of is Pantheon needs to find a way to make it so when you're in a group you can still ninja-afk without huge consequences. Perhaps your character can disappear when you're afk or it can become like a mercenary. Anyway, I think finding a way to make Pantheon friendly to parents (who're more susceptible to 5 minute ninja afk's) and others in general who live a busy life is not a terrible idea. And of course there're those people that just need to go to the toilet or cook something fast. All in all, it'd be nice if the game could still feel hardcore while also not making us feel like we can't afk to fulfill basic functions.

I like the Merc idea very much. Would allow for those afk moments, and open a whole new world to boxing for those of us who like it. Think how many more people would box (and pay for the extra accounts) if they didn't have to struggle with the setup and software to make it work.

Personally I have boxed most games I have played, 2-3 boxed eq2, vanguard, swg, tabula rasa, firefall, 4 boxed EQ live and 16 boxed on Wow.

Boxing for me was a way to work on harder group content without having to sit lfg for hours. And let's face it, most MMO's are not rocket science, so just playing 1 toon would get boring for me.

I realize my opinion on boxing is counter to many people who play these games to socialize as they are mmorpg's. But I have a life and a social job and personally I don't play these games to make friends, I play to relax and enjoy myself and in the brave new word of instances and multiple shards on a single mega server, people boxing is not going to effect or impact other people really. I understand the argument against it in classic EQ as one person can lock down a group camp, but that is not an issue in todays gaming.

[A1551]

This kickstarter is still trending fine. It's certainly not doing as well as it *should* be doing and I am pretty sure the dev team was hoping to easily make the 800k well before the time was up with a lot of progress on the stretch goals. The way things are playing out is pretty standard for large budget gaming projects that meet their goals (without massively exceeding them). Assuming the team behind the project is doing what they need to be doing to get the word out this still probably has the potential to hit the million dollarish mark, maybe more if they can hit the right populations.

its been mentioned before but these things follow a pattern in terms of pledges where you get a big initial bump then things slow down (often to a virtual crawl) and then slowly speed up as the project gets near the end, with a major uptick right near the end.

It is very common to see >50% of the $$ to come in the last 25% of the kickstarter. If you see this at $400,000 with 10 days left, (29 to go currently at 221k) chances are pretty good it succeeds.

Expect a major PR blitz near the end -- the team should be generating a lot of media content to release and lining up coverage from a lot sites for the same timeframe. It's a balancing act for them as they need to do a certain amount of PR work now to keep funds going up at least slowly, but at the same time any PR work they do now will be a lot less valuable than similar work done near the end, and opportunities are not endless.

For example, a published interview on RPS today might net them a $$ bump but the same interview with 5 days to go will result in a much larger bump. And RPS will only run so many pieces on pantheon. And when(if) this does finally fund, RPS probably runs another article saying it funded, and then a bunch of people pledge because it succeeded. Which all just reinforces that a lot of the funding will come nearer the end.

[stormlord]

This kickstarter is still trending fine. It's certainly not doing as well as it *should* be doing and I am pretty sure the dev team was hoping to easily make the 800k well before the time was up with a lot of progress on the stretch goals. The way things are playing out is pretty standard for large budget gaming projects that meet their goals (without massively exceeding them). Assuming the team behind the project is doing what they need to be doing to get the word out this still probably has the potential to hit the million dollarish mark, maybe more if they can hit the right populations.
..............
That'd definitely be something new to me. I look at the kickstarter and I just don't see enough backers. Count me as someone who learns something new if this comes to place as you say.

[Treefall]

No...no...no..................
--------
Skill Chains and Sympathetics

Skill chains are a series of super abilities executed in a particular order. These abilities are executed by multiple players. When a skill chain is completed an additional effect fires, this effect is called a sympathetic ability. There is only a certain window of time between each ability activation that the next qualifying one can be. If the player has discovered the chain their ability will light up if they have a qualifying ability letting them know they need to fire that ability next in order to take the chain to the next level.

Chain discovery occurs through experimentation. In order to discover they must try different combinations until they successfully complete the chain. When a chain is initially discovered it is entered into the tome of war. Only through practice can the player unlock the chain, fully gaining its biggest benefit.
-------

What I hated most from EverQuest 2 is making its way into Pantheon. FML.

[Grozmok]

Sounds a bit like the way the abilities worked in DAoC.

[stormlord]

It'll be itneresting to see how the systems in Pantheon evolve.

I particularly liked this comment from earlier on the kickstarter comments page:

Eadren about 8 hours ago

I think where Gazz's viewpoint is coming from is, as he mentioned the Divination school in EQ. Most classes had spells that weren't cast nearly as frequently as, say, their damaging spells. Which caused you to have to cast it for the heck of it just to level it up rather than as you played, as with your damage spells, buffs, etc. From an immersion stand point, you're practicing the spell to get more proficient. But from a fun standpoint, if there's no reason to cast that particular spell over and over (invisibility, for example) you notice the tedium, where its hidden with damage spells. Oberon also brings a good point.

Link:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/comments

I really like that comment because it highlights an important point, in my mind. If you're going to require skills be trained, do in such a way it happens more naturally as a result of the gameplay. Standing still and casting a spell repeatedly (and uselessly) to train it is not fun because there's no gameplay mixed in to keep you occupied. I hope Brad can keep all this in mind so as to not repeat mistakes made in EQ.

This is the same reason I did not like camping. Figuring out a camp is fun because there're things to do in the process of figuring it out. However, after that it's repetition. Oftentimes, you'd just be sitting there and hiding and afking for 10 to 20 minutes. It's possible you may be in a camp where you'd be continually killing things to get the ph to pop, but even in that case you're still killing the same things over and over, resulting in repetition. If Brad can resolve all this somehow by making loot acquisition less repetitious, it'd be a great sign.

In modern MMO's the answer to loot acquisition and camping seems to be a continual flow of quests moving you around. Because you're being moved around and engaged in the quests, there's less repetition. In the process of loot acquisition you're actively playing and going to new areas, thus avoiding having to camp.

One other note about quests is they're handmade, not random. Many games try to insert random content, but it always seems to be less effective at producing enjoyment because it's computer generated. Perhaps knowing this can make finding a solution easier, so you don't rely too much on random things.

And one finale note about repetition. The reason it happens is because developers fail to create enough content to keep players occupied. The secondary reason it happens I feel is because some developers use it as a means to separate players, so that some can rise above the others. This usually happens in more competitive games. The problem is repetition is not fun and by enforcing it a game will become exclusive and more isolated. Bottom line, repetition is a poor substitute for content AND competition. It's not what makes games great.

[Grozmok]

I like the concept of practice to get the skill up, but in the spectrum of fun vs tedious, EverQuest was way far on the tedious end.

I think a system like that can be implemented that strikes a balance so you aren't standing around in the EC tunnel casting your shit over and over lol

[Ceythos]

No...no...no..................
--------
Skill Chains and Sympathetics

Skill chains are a series of super abilities executed in a particular order. These abilities are executed by multiple players. When a skill chain is completed an additional effect fires, this effect is called a sympathetic ability. There is only a certain window of time between each ability activation that the next qualifying one can be. If the player has discovered the chain their ability will light up if they have a qualifying ability letting them know they need to fire that ability next in order to take the chain to the next level.

Chain discovery occurs through experimentation. In order to discover they must try different combinations until they successfully complete the chain. When a chain is initially discovered it is entered into the tome of war. Only through practice can the player unlock the chain, fully gaining its biggest benefit.
-------

What I hated most from EverQuest 2 is making its way into Pantheon. FML.

I'm glad you brought up Eq2 in this example. We've already discussed that as a team as one of our concerns, we don't want it to take on that implementation in Pantheon. If I had to cite an example though, FFXI's skillchain system would be a better one for what we want to do.

[a_gnoll_pup]

Dear Ceythos,

You and your team are amazing. Can we make an EQEmulator zone for you and have it added to Pantheon?

Much love,
Secrets

[Ceythos]

I like the concept of practice to get the skill up, but in the spectrum of fun vs tedious, EverQuest was way far on the tedious end.

I think a system like that can be implemented that strikes a balance so you aren't standing around in the EC tunnel casting your shit over and over lol

Agreed, striking a balance between naturally skilling up through regular gamplay vs tediously casting an ability will be on our minds. Using Divination as an example, what if there'd been a skill that let you tell more about a mob beyond just /conning them, like you could see hidden buffs or debuffs on the mob with the right spell? Maybe not the best example, I'm still working on my first cup of coffee ;)

[sajbercub]

Ive backed Pantheon with $100 dollars!

[Ceythos]

Dear Ceythos,

You and your team are amazing. Can we make an EQEmulator zone for you and have it added to Pantheon?

Much love,
Secrets

Unfortunately I think SOE and their legal team might take issue with that, but thank you for the thought and the compliment :)

[Ceythos]

Ive backed Pantheon with $100 dollars!

Thank you! and to everyone else for any pledges and the continued discussions.

[a_gnoll_pup]

Unfortunately I think SOE and their legal team might take issue with that, but thank you for the thought and the compliment :)

Oh, I meant in terms of content itself - ie; we'd prototype the zone in EQEmulator/EQ Client, and change the models/textures on production. We have the ability to add doors to make a flat, grassy zone into an entirely new area. Please see the following if you have time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuIMrW7QOzI

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGRINKNVx5A

[Rec]

skilling up was only annoying because a class wouldn't get an ability of that school at an early level. Even if it's from a lame spell at least we will have access to something from the beginning to use in the course of normal play and it won't turn into this have to sit somewhere casting over and over for half the day.

[Grozmok]

Any thoughts on your death mechanic yet?

[Swish]

Any thoughts on your death mechanic yet?

From what I could gather from the first couple of Q&As with Brad, there won't be "tedious" corpse runs... but he agreed that the players should "fear" dying and there will be some kind of XP loss.

EQ2 had it nailed at its launch, super hardcore. If someone in your group died you'd all lose XP. I remember a group wipe in some CB type zone and everyone raging in group chat :D

[Rec]

It's in the faq you lazy bastards

[Ceythos]

Oh, I meant in terms of content itself - ie; we'd prototype the zone in EQEmulator/EQ Client, and change the models/textures on production. We have the ability to add doors to make a flat, grassy zone into an entirely new area. Please see the following if you have time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuIMrW7QOzI

and this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGRINKNVx5A

Oh wow, good stuff! I'll ask the team about it, thanks - might be a bit before I have an answer, Brad and Salim have interviews lined up today with KTAM and a few other things, but I'll let you know if I hear anything back on that.

[Ceythos]

Any thoughts on your death mechanic yet?

Originally we were shooting for death mechanics similar to Vanguard's - exp debt, gear durability hit, and leaving a tombstone. The more we've talked about it though, we're considering going with something a bit more severe - nothing set in stone just yet, though.

[a_gnoll_pup]

Oh wow, good stuff! I'll ask the team about it, thanks - might be a bit before I have an answer, Brad and Salim have interviews lined up today with KTAM and a few other things, but I'll let you know if I hear anything back on that.

Awesome! I mentioned it already to Brad & I think it'd be pretty cool to involve P99/EQEmu's efforts in developing content somehow, as EQEmulator is a familiar platform for us.

I know some of us here and elsewhere would be dying to prototype some content that could ultimately be re-textured/remodeled with actual lore-specific NPCs to Pantheon, myself included.

[Grozmok]

Originally we were shooting for death mechanics similar to Vanguard's - exp debt, gear durability hit, and leaving a tombstone. The more we've talked about it though, we're considering going with something a bit more severe - nothing set in stone just yet, though.

Having an attachment to the outcome is important but I think too severe will drive away players.

I think this too is about striking a balance.

[Ceythos]

Having an attachment to the outcome is important but I think too severe will drive away players.

I think this too is about striking a balance.

Couldn't agree more. Death should be feared, but it also shouldn't kick you too hard in the privates every time, either. Otherwise you end up getting far more frustration than enjoyment. Also if it's *too* harsh, it could lead to discouraging exploration.

[Pringles]

Apparently it came out in the KTAM interview that some of the devs play here on p99........

Listening to it now but thats pretty cool. http://173.193.205.96:2197/ondemand/ktamradio/Epic%20Sunday%20w%20Tony%20Jan%2019%202014.mp3

[Grozmok]

There's a shocker!

It's the best 'vanilla' EverQuest experience you can get IMO.

SOE tried to do it, but fucked up their own shit lol

[Rhambuk]

Apparently it came out in the KTAM interview that some of the devs play here on p99........

Listening to it now but thats pretty cool. http://173.193.205.96:2197/ondemand/ktamradio/Epic%20Sunday%20w%20Tony%20Jan%2019%202014.mp3

couldnt click the link but that is pretty cool that they play here.

[cyryllis]

backed pantheon with $100, but I'm sad to say I am not really sure if they will reach their goals. Hopefully some crazy people out there toss in a few grand each. Dont have high hopes- but maybe something great will happen

[stormlord]

I wonder what the popularity of cross-server travel or mentoring down AND up would be? Personally, I'm beginning to think as long as the game is trying to challenge us and is able to explain these things with lore and it all fits together then I'm not sure I'm against it. Typically I would be, but that's because the games which do these things first are usually the casual ones. I guess it depends how it's done. If I can group with someone on any server and get going in an instance almost immediately, how is reputation and a sense of community or home going to be preserved? Wouldn't that be like playing in a sea of other players? Maybe it could somehow and I'm open to it, I just hope some resemblance to a smaller-scale environment can be preserved.

I do think players like us as a community have to be more open to these sorts of things. An interesting idea is if they're going to use these typically casual features, why not innovate on them? So rather than just copying XYZ features from other MMO's, take em and rethink them on some level to make them Pantheon-esque. This way it's distinctive and if players are critical of it they can't say it's - in precise terms - cloned.

Imagine for a moment through some miracle Pantheon passes the kickstarter and proceeds to pass its future budget goals and launches in 2017-2020 and does so in a reasonably bug free fashion with a game that has enough in common with other modern mmo's that when players play it they don't immediately criticize it. If the game stays niche and doesn't adopt some of the modern features it'll be a lot easier to criticize. And when a game is criticized in various reviews other players will be less likely to give it a try.

Brad has stated they expect upwards of 25,000 to 50,000 players. In my mind, that means they should be developing this game with the expectation their population will be considerably more casual. If they do this then this can give them some extra room for error. The future is very hard to predict, after all.

The sooner Brad and his team can "casualize" the Pantheon vision the better for its future. If they can do this while convincing the majority of us it's still an EQ-like game then it has a chance.

Just having "Brad McQuaid" on the game gives me a feeling of nostalgia. I wonder if anyone else feels that? I want to see Brad make a game that works and doesn't fall apart like the last one did.

[Kuldiin]

Couldn't agree more. Death should be feared, but it also shouldn't kick you too hard in the privates every time, either. Otherwise you end up getting far more frustration than enjoyment. Also if it's *too* harsh, it could lead to discouraging exploration.

Make it zone based? The tougher the zone, the greater the reward, but also the harsher the penalty. Can't handle the penalty? Then stay the hell away from the zone!

Im sure I'm not alone in saying I want there to be zones I literally fear to enter.

[Grozmok]

Without that challenge you lose the group centric sense of accomplishment that you get in EverQuest and other games (to some degree).

[stormlord]

Without that challenge you lose the group centric sense of accomplishment that you get in EverQuest and other games (to some degree).
I'm thinking of Diablo 2 Hardcore mode right now. If you died it was permanent. There were various stages in the game where you'd be caught inbetween crowds of monsters and it was split second choices that could save you or kill you. It was a good challenge, but the problem is the perma-death mechanic encouraged you to stay in lower level zones to squeeze every drop of experience from it before going to the harder zones. As a consequence, it became more like a grind. Inevitably, I still died anyway too, mostly to random critical hits or misjudging the number and severity of enemies. Once or twice I died because of a lag spike. My highest level was a 47 paladin. I don't regret it, since dying and losing everything permanently is never going to be an easy thing, unless all the value of those things is removed or replaced over time.

What I'm saying here is I'm not convinced PUNISHMENT is necessary to give a game challenge. It might be necessary to hook adrenaline junkies, but challenge is another beast. A challenge is like trying to get a good score - for yourself - in golf. Punishment is like having to restart ALL holes everytime you fail to get a hole-in-one. The key to take away is golf and other games are fun not because of any punishment (unless you're hooked on adrenaline) but because of the process of learning the game and getting better with time. Few humans if any would learn to walk if they had their legs cut off if they failed their first attempt.

I think repetition and punishment can be ways to divide players and to allow for some to rise above others, but this normally applies to competitive games and only the most mediocre. Lets face it, some players are better able to tolerate repetition or punishment and thus better able to rise up and over others. This is as opposed to making better choices which is hte preferred method to divide players, so some can rise above others. I think developers of games turn to tactics like using repetition or punishment because it's cheaper to produce. Producing gameplay which urges players to make intelligent decisions requires more effort.

I think challenge increases the sense of accomplishment for both soloing and grouping. I think what you said has to do with the synergy between group members being better and more rewarding if it's a challenge.

I think a challenge is also somewhat subjective. If I was playing golf a challenge for me would be making an inferior score. Tiger Woods would cast scorn. Either way, I rise up in the ranks as I improve.

Sometimes I wonder if people take up challenges they tend to be better at. For example, I remember enjoying the hell out of nintendo games when I was growing up. My sister, on the other hand, died repeatedly and didn't enjoy them as much. Thing is, I died a lot too, but I had better reflexes than her. The difficulty curve for me was not as extreme as it was for her because of my better ability to play the game.

Why do I enjoy tactical games more than story games? Like I can enjoy the hell out of combat and figuring out ways to winning, but slogging through a story or scene is much more boring to me. Maybe this is because I don't follow a story as well or don't get attached as much emotionally to hte characters. I've always thought of myself as sensitive, but I've rarely connected with others on a deep emotional level.

So how do you make a game please to everyone if challenge is somewhat subjective and different players have different aptitudes and thus different players respond differently to the same challenge?

May I ask what your post was in response to?

[Rec]

First race is real fat ogres

take that eq next

[Sirken]

Hey gang,
I'm Ceythos, one of the designers on Pantheon. I just wanted to drop in and say hello and thank you everyone for the discussion and support so far!
-Ceythos

no sir, a big THANK YOU to all you guys, we're all here cheering you guys on and wishing you the very best on Pantheon. it means a lot to gamers when devs take the time to reach out to different communities to engage their fans.

<3

[Grozmok]

First race is real fat ogres

take that eq next

Huh?

[Derubael]

no sir, a big THANK YOU to all you guys, we're all here cheering you guys on and wishing you the very best on Pantheon. it means a lot to gamers when devs take the time to reach out to different communities to engage their fans.

<3

this x1000

Thanks for dropping in on our little corner of the internet! I think the whole staff is kind of in awe that you are even posting here, or that we're even being mentioned in any capacity by the people who are making these great games. :D

It makes us all feel warm and fuzzy inside that anyone in the current MMO industry even knows we are here. Wishing you guys tons of luck and good fortunes.

Also, please implement Iksars regardless of kickstarter funding. They are the master race, after all ;)

~Deru

[Pringles]

no sir, a big THANK YOU to all you guys, we're all here cheering you guys on and wishing you the very best on Pantheon. it means a lot to gamers when devs take the time to reach out to different communities to engage their fans.

<3

Damn... I R blind. I guess thats what I get for not reading the whole thread.

Thanks for posting Ceythos!

[Sirken]

Visit this youtube channel to check out some Pantheon Q&A videos
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD6T5fuhHipPUEtrcpgsYGA/videos

[a_gnoll_pup]

Pantheon livestream interview with Aradune!

http://www.twitch.tv/mmobuff

[Rec]

Huh?

EQ next ogres are not blubbery fat bodies. In other words not the real ogres

[Treefall]

I'm glad you brought up Eq2 in this example. We've already discussed that as a team as one of our concerns, we don't want it to take on that implementation in Pantheon. If I had to cite an example though, FFXI's skillchain system would be a better one for what we want to do.

Ok, that's good to know!

[Rec]

race number 2 is undead

[Potus]

Shit even Warcraft/WoW got Ogres right.

Shameful when MMORPGs try to make Ogres thin and intelligent yet still malevolent. That's called "Elves"

[Grozmok]

Hahah

[nndiro]

What I'm saying here is I'm not convinced PUNISHMENT is necessary to give a game challenge. It might be necessary to hook adrenaline junkies, but challenge is another beast. A challenge is like trying to get a good score - for yourself - in golf. Punishment is like having to restart ALL holes everytime you fail to get a hole-in-one. The key to take away is golf and other games are fun not because of any punishment (unless you're hooked on adrenaline) but because of the process of learning the game and getting better with time. Few humans if any would learn to walk if they had their legs cut off if they failed their first attempt.

so instead of punishment...rewards? like a bonus xp % for every level you don't die?

[stormlord]

so instead of punishment...rewards? like a bonus xp % for every level you don't die?
If you miss a putt in golf then your score isn't as good. If you're in a competition it can hurt because you may not get in the top 3 or whatever. If you're just playing alone or with a buddy, a lower score is just the loss of some bragging rights. If you're alone it's mostly just the time lost finding the missed balls.

Competitively, what we're talking about is a lower score. BUT this score should be more individual or be graded on a curve. My score should not be compared to Tiger Woods because I can't hit the ball straight, like ever. I'd have no fun if Tiger was my opponent. Competition is fun if it's reasonably fair.

If I'm playing alone then I'm limited by how many balls I have. If I miss I have to go get that ball. The more I'm actually swinging and playing the game the better I'm feeling. If I have to run too far to get my balls or if I lose too many then it starts to become too much hassle. Yes, I'm trying to get a good score, but missing doesn't affect me as much because I'm not playing competitively against someone else.

Soo.... WTF am I saying?

1 If I'm a competition and die then my (relative to my skill level) score is lower
2 If I'm not in a competition and die then it's just the time consumption itself which can hurt me

So punishment combined with competition can make a loss more painful.

Am I being punished if I have to run down a golf ball that missed or if I throw the ball out of bounds during a basketball game and the refs have to set up an inbound play to get the game going again? See, when we miss there's always the potential for some time consumption, but determining when that becomes punishment is just something you have to find out by asking the players and judging the majority vote.

I don't think there's a way to get rid of negative feelings when we lose or miss or fail or die or similar. The important thing is to not kick someone when they're down or to make it any worse. People who're having a string of losses actually need some encouragement if the start to not believe in themselves. So if you're going to help someone, target those people who're not doing well on a consistent basis.

[fadetree]

Make things hard. Leave some boring annoying things in. The heart of any game is actually about what you can't do, not what you can.

[Rust1d?]

This game is going to fail hard. They barely put any effort into the game name. Rise of the Fallen? Seriously?

[Melissa]

Will there be racial innates? Will everyone who wants to be a tank be making theirs ogre? Will we see enraged discussions on which race and stats to pick upon character creation?

As an ex-zerker-main on live...please don't fuck them up like soe has done.

Please don't fuck up fun mechanics like fd pulling, chaining pets, etc.

Oh yea and don't forget about how much Complete Heal pigeonholed soe on content!

[Mehrk]

I'm glad you brought up Eq2 in this example. We've already discussed that as a team as one of our concerns, we don't want it to take on that implementation in Pantheon. If I had to cite an example though, FFXI's skillchain system would be a better one for what we want to do.

I think I loved classic EQ and FFXI equally, to be honest, but melee in EQ was a tad dull. Skillchains(and magic bursts) were a major draw for me in FFXI, so if you are telling me that you are essentially adding skillchains to everquest... omgwtfbbq.

Also glad to hear about the other Everquestian mechanics like corpse runs, death penalties and factions having a point beyond pvp, but the skillchain comparison was definitely unexpected.

[Rec]

This game is going to fail hard. They barely put any effort into the game name. Rise of the Fallen? Seriously?

Yeah there was a lot of effort put into the name EverQuest. Pretend to care about something worth bitching about

[Aeolwind]

Also if it's *too* harsh, it could lead to discouraging exploration.

I don't see this as a bad thing. EQ made you pay, dearly, for being curious. The punishment should be as severe and rewarding.

Hill giants in WC, Sand Giants in NRo/Oasis.
Lord Shinree.
Gryphons in EC.
Babinsbort in Befallen.
Kithicor Forest at night.
Kizdean Gix

Make the game feel like it is actively out to 'get' the player. Adversarial confrontation with a AI. Example: You got killed by a HG in WC while camping dervs, and then on your CR you get gaffled by a gryphon in EC so you hug the wall on your 3rd trip only to aggro the god awful rare spawn of Lord Shinree and take another face plant. It 'feels' like the game is out to get you.

Getting curb stomped by something 20 levels above you for example, should be less punishing than getting taken out by 'appropriate' encounters. Also, corpse retrieval, it needs to be there.

The sense of urgency of rez and rot timers were awesome. The guild I was in rescued a pickup raid that Nilbog was apart of on EMarr from Fear. It was at the 23rd hour for some of those folks, so corpse rot was staring them in the face and, what they had killed had repopped already. The sense of urgency & excitement we felt jumping in with 12 to break Fear I think during Kunark was astounding. I still get stoked when I think about it.

That feeling was created by a difficult zone and a sense of urgency. Clearing TOV was nothing compared to that Fear rescue. AOW wasn't even there. Me yelling "dick in yo ass bitch" in the middle of LOIO and getting reported after finally downing Xenovorash after several failed tries because of bugs was REALLY close 2nd however. But, that is associated with the game being 'out to get you' scenario.

[Issues]

Hopefully he learned from Vanguard to have viable end game content in at release. Game was very solid just no staying power.

[Kope]

Hey gang,

I'm Ceythos, one of the designers on Pantheon. I just wanted to drop in and say hello and thank you everyone for the discussion and support so far!

-Ceythos

Thank you very much for taking the time and coming to these boards as well as having your representatives do interviews here on P99.

I have pledged $250, hopefully we can get this going :).

[mnemonikos82]

Backed at $55. Wish I had more to give, but it seems like a copy of the game (w/ 30 days, access to Beta, name reservations, and access to the forums is the best value at $55 if you can't afford the $250.

[Zadrian]

My girl and I are having our 10 year anniversary Feb 21st. She said I can have whatever I want up to $200.... Considering just using it all on the kickstarter..

Should I do it?

[mnemonikos82]

If you can't spend the whole $250 for the 1 year membership with lifetime $1 renewals, the best option is the $55 one. IMO.

[Thulack]

My girl and I are having our 10 year anniversary Feb 21st. She said I can have whatever I want up to $200.... Considering just using it all on the kickstarter..

Should I do it?

Any decent hookers for 200? probably more worth it :D

[Eldaran]

The best value over time is the $1 sub. Its a worthwhile investment.

[Eldaran]

And early alpha for the next Brad McQuaid mmo I mean cmon. This is gold.

[Grozmok]

The best value over time is the $1 sub. Its a worthwhile investment.

Only if the game is amazing and you plan on sticking with it long enough for the money to pay for itself.

;)

Are you a gambling person?

[Eldaran]

I would definitely gamble on Brad and his team.

[Grozmok]

I would definitely gamble on Brad and his team.

Cool.

I backed them $250 because of nostalgia and my love for group centered gameplay.

To me, it seems like gamers are a very fickle bunch with very long memories that like to hold grudges.

:D

[Zadrian]

Any decent hookers for 200? probably more worth it :D

*shudder* wouldn't want to know any hookers round these parts.

[stormlord]

I don't see this as a bad thing. EQ made you pay, dearly, for being curious. The punishment should be as severe and rewarding.

Hill giants in WC, Sand Giants in NRo/Oasis.
Lord Shinree.
Gryphons in EC.
Babinsbort in Befallen.
Kithicor Forest at night.
Kizdean Gix

Make the game feel like it is actively out to 'get' the player. Adversarial confrontation with a AI. Example: You got killed by a HG in WC while camping dervs, and then on your CR you get gaffled by a gryphon in EC so you hug the wall on your 3rd trip only to aggro the god awful rare spawn of Lord Shinree and take another face plant. It 'feels' like the game is out to get you.

Getting curb stomped by something 20 levels above you for example, should be less punishing than getting taken out by 'appropriate' encounters. Also, corpse retrieval, it needs to be there.

The sense of urgency of rez and rot timers were awesome. The guild I was in rescued a pickup raid that Nilbog was apart of on EMarr from Fear. It was at the 23rd hour for some of those folks, so corpse rot was staring them in the face and, what they had killed had repopped already. The sense of urgency & excitement we felt jumping in with 12 to break Fear I think during Kunark was astounding. I still get stoked when I think about it.

That feeling was created by a difficult zone and a sense of urgency. Clearing TOV was nothing compared to that Fear rescue. AOW wasn't even there. Me yelling "dick in yo ass bitch" in the middle of LOIO and getting reported after finally downing Xenovorash after several failed tries because of bugs was REALLY close 2nd however. But, that is associated with the game being 'out to get you' scenario.
Goal setting is what causes people to do these things, not punishment or "urgency". All punishment and/or urgency do is cause adrenaline to fire up which is not necessary to make a good game. You still would have helped your friends in hate even if the only impediment was numbers or intelligence, if only to achieve the goal of helping them and maintaining a high status in the game. Danger, as a driving force to make you help them, is not the reason you do. You don't need the danger to act, you just need the goal.

You know why there're risk takers in history? It's not because they liked adrenaline. Risk takers are not the same thing as thrill seekers or adrenaline junkies. Risk takers are successful at it. It's because they set smart goals and strive always to achieve them. We know from research that established successful risk takers have high amounts of dopamine. Dopamine is explicitly linked to goal setting. We also know people who're addicted to adrenaline make terrible explorers and/or risk takers because they do not calculate risk. Adrenaline is only a limited function and is only a short-term response to a life or death situation. Being an effective risk taker means not being addicted to adrenaline and thinking clearly about the risks.

What I'm saying is we need games with environments that sprout goal setting, not environments that trigger adrenaline. It's not adrenaline that makes us strive or have purpose, it's goals. We can effectively remove all adrenaline from the MMORPG equation and still have a successful game based on goals. In fact, if you examine EQ, you'll find most of the complaints have to do with the high level of punishment and "urgency".

Did you know constant exposure to adrenaline has negative health effects? Why play a game which will expose you to this and make you unhealthy when you can choose a game which won't do that?

Ever seen one of those "casual" games where people play and strive to achieve goals and yet there's no obvious danger or threat posed to them? Here you see: witness the power of dopamine. Dopamine doesn't need risk. Goals don't need risk. They just need an interesting world and interesting things to accomplish.

BUT living in a dangerous world does lend benefits to people who're good goal setters. This allows htem to better survive. However, goal setting itself doesn't require danger to exist.

People who like danger are thrill seekers. They're not comparable to Christopher Columbus or Neil Armstrong or Ferdinand Magellan or the bold travelers who ventured outside of africa 60,000 years ago. In fact, it's a slap in the face to compare reckless dumb f**** to people who molded the face of the modern world.

[Kope]

In case anyone cares Boogie2988 will be doing an interview with Brad today around 2 pm.

Link to youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45XrbsBt34c

[Grozmok]

Caught that, Brad appears to have matured quite a bit.