Freakish
01-12-2014, 08:00 PM
I've found reference that the listings in the wiki and what is currently in game is incorrect but I can't find definite proof.
The only patch notes listing I've found is here:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020319.html
Demi Lich is now a level 56 spell.
Arch Lich has been improved.
There is not much to go on here, but this leads me to believe that Arch Lich in its original state was not what is listed on the wiki.
For reference, current Arch Lich information on wiki / aggregate sites:
Arch Lich
Description
1: Add effect: Specter Form
2: Increase Mana by 35 per tick
4: Ultravision
5: See Invisible (1)
7: Decrease Hitpoints by 36 per tick
The lucy spell history lists some interesting changes. Especially interesting is that these changes occur on the SAME day as Arch Lich gets its spell improvements.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=1416&source=Live
2002-03-19 05:50 Changed Slot 3 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 31 per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 53 per tick"
2002-03-19 05:50 Changed Slot 2 from "Increase Mana by 20 per tick" to "Increase Mana by 35 per tick"
2002-03-07 11:32 Initial Entry
It was later changed again in 2006 to
2006-09-27 12:11 Changed Slot 7 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 53 per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 36 per tick"
On to Demi Lich. This is the current spell information.
Demi Lich
Slot Description
1: Add effect: Skeletal Form
2: Increase Mana by 31 per tick
4: Ultravision
7: Decrease Hitpoints by 32 per tick
Going through lucy spell history again, I see on 3/19/2003 (The patch date listed earlier) we have a listing.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=1611&source=Live
2002-03-19 05:50 Changed Necromancer level from 60 to 56
Nothing interesting there. BUT if we look further up on the page we see this.
2003-04-23 11:08 Added Slot 7: Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick
2003-04-23 11:08 Removed Slot 3: Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick
and even further up we see that in 2006 another change was made.
2006-09-27 12:11 Changed Slot 7 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 32 per tick"
I've found two references of players mentioning this change. One was on a thread reminiscing.
http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2261
The old casters realm is definitely correct. They revamped all of the spells later on, making them all RIDICULOUSLY powerful by classic EQ standards, and completely trivializing the lower end game. Modern EQ sites cannot be used for spell info these days, unfortunately.
Arch Lich was added with the Velious expansion, as just a "cool" alternative to Demi Lich, with better efficiency. They later moved Demi Lich down to a level 56 spell, making it a lot more accessible, but this wasn't until after classic. Also keep in mind that arch lich had a longer duration, making it less annoying to keep up all the time.
I'll have to check my spell guide and see what that says - it's a really old print-out from my early EQ days when I wanted a full spell list. I'm pretty sure I would have printed it out pre-Luclin 'cause I can't imagine I played the game for more than seven months without wanting a spell guide on-hand. I do recall, however, that it said pretty much what you guys have said here - that Demi Lich was better for mana regen whilst Arch Lich was more for the "Whee I look cool and I'm gonna scare the pants off the newbies in Oasis" effect .
It could also be that Arch Lich was better to just leave up all the time. Demi Lich's 48 Hps / tick is going to drain your life a lot faster than you might think. I don't remember what self buffed caster HPs were like back in classic, but I'm guessing not more than 1500 or so for the average guy, maybe 2k for the uber geared? At that rate you'll be dead in just over 4 minutes (for 2k hps), so at ~2-3 minutes you're getting uncomfortably low.
You'll last 50% longer with Arch Lich, which may be preferable depending on your play style and what you're hunting.
Small discussion on Allakhazam.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1611
48hp/31mana ? What?
Quote
Reply
#Jul 08 2003 at 11:20 PMRating: Decent
poopitypoop
34 posts
This is Interesting:
I'm a 59 Necro. I regen 9hp/tick sitting and 6 standing, I have innate regen 3. According teo eq.castersrealm.com I shoudl be 10sitting/7standing but whatever. Here is what is interesting:
With Demi-Lich on I lose 30 standing and 29 sitting. which means Demi-Lich is taking away 38hps TOTAL when I'm sitting(29+9), and 36 TOTAL when I'm standing(30+6). What is wrong with this picture, this isn't even close to the 48hp/tick mentioned. Now Demi-Lich is Alteration, so I'm assumng it lowered the amoutn of damage I take because of that. So I tried casting it several times, I thought maybe I had to meet the specialization check.. I did every time either that or spec Alt. doens't have anything to do with it and the stats of this spell are incorrect, or mei-lich with spec alt will always lower the amount of damage that one takes. Do some tests, what did you guys find out.
RE: 48hp/31mana ? What?
Reply
#Mar 10 2004 at 4:57 AMRating: Decent
Ibamn
9 posts
The answer to this is actually quite simple. The damage that all of our convergence spells do is considered to be a detrimental PvP spell and all detrimental PvP spells will only do 75% of thier damage. You can do tests with all of the convergence spells and see that they all only do 75% of the hp damage to you compared to what is stated by lucy.
Conclusion:
Demi Lich should be 31 mana / tick, 48 hp / tick loss
Arch Lich should be 20 mana / tick, 31 hp / tick loss (when velious comes)
These changes should be permanent to the Velious timeline as they were improved in 2003.
The only patch notes listing I've found is here:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020319.html
Demi Lich is now a level 56 spell.
Arch Lich has been improved.
There is not much to go on here, but this leads me to believe that Arch Lich in its original state was not what is listed on the wiki.
For reference, current Arch Lich information on wiki / aggregate sites:
Arch Lich
Description
1: Add effect: Specter Form
2: Increase Mana by 35 per tick
4: Ultravision
5: See Invisible (1)
7: Decrease Hitpoints by 36 per tick
The lucy spell history lists some interesting changes. Especially interesting is that these changes occur on the SAME day as Arch Lich gets its spell improvements.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=1416&source=Live
2002-03-19 05:50 Changed Slot 3 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 31 per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 53 per tick"
2002-03-19 05:50 Changed Slot 2 from "Increase Mana by 20 per tick" to "Increase Mana by 35 per tick"
2002-03-07 11:32 Initial Entry
It was later changed again in 2006 to
2006-09-27 12:11 Changed Slot 7 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 53 per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 36 per tick"
On to Demi Lich. This is the current spell information.
Demi Lich
Slot Description
1: Add effect: Skeletal Form
2: Increase Mana by 31 per tick
4: Ultravision
7: Decrease Hitpoints by 32 per tick
Going through lucy spell history again, I see on 3/19/2003 (The patch date listed earlier) we have a listing.
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=1611&source=Live
2002-03-19 05:50 Changed Necromancer level from 60 to 56
Nothing interesting there. BUT if we look further up on the page we see this.
2003-04-23 11:08 Added Slot 7: Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick
2003-04-23 11:08 Removed Slot 3: Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick
and even further up we see that in 2006 another change was made.
2006-09-27 12:11 Changed Slot 7 from "Decrease Hitpoints by 48 per tick" to "Decrease Hitpoints by 32 per tick"
I've found two references of players mentioning this change. One was on a thread reminiscing.
http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2261
The old casters realm is definitely correct. They revamped all of the spells later on, making them all RIDICULOUSLY powerful by classic EQ standards, and completely trivializing the lower end game. Modern EQ sites cannot be used for spell info these days, unfortunately.
Arch Lich was added with the Velious expansion, as just a "cool" alternative to Demi Lich, with better efficiency. They later moved Demi Lich down to a level 56 spell, making it a lot more accessible, but this wasn't until after classic. Also keep in mind that arch lich had a longer duration, making it less annoying to keep up all the time.
I'll have to check my spell guide and see what that says - it's a really old print-out from my early EQ days when I wanted a full spell list. I'm pretty sure I would have printed it out pre-Luclin 'cause I can't imagine I played the game for more than seven months without wanting a spell guide on-hand. I do recall, however, that it said pretty much what you guys have said here - that Demi Lich was better for mana regen whilst Arch Lich was more for the "Whee I look cool and I'm gonna scare the pants off the newbies in Oasis" effect .
It could also be that Arch Lich was better to just leave up all the time. Demi Lich's 48 Hps / tick is going to drain your life a lot faster than you might think. I don't remember what self buffed caster HPs were like back in classic, but I'm guessing not more than 1500 or so for the average guy, maybe 2k for the uber geared? At that rate you'll be dead in just over 4 minutes (for 2k hps), so at ~2-3 minutes you're getting uncomfortably low.
You'll last 50% longer with Arch Lich, which may be preferable depending on your play style and what you're hunting.
Small discussion on Allakhazam.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=1611
48hp/31mana ? What?
Quote
Reply
#Jul 08 2003 at 11:20 PMRating: Decent
poopitypoop
34 posts
This is Interesting:
I'm a 59 Necro. I regen 9hp/tick sitting and 6 standing, I have innate regen 3. According teo eq.castersrealm.com I shoudl be 10sitting/7standing but whatever. Here is what is interesting:
With Demi-Lich on I lose 30 standing and 29 sitting. which means Demi-Lich is taking away 38hps TOTAL when I'm sitting(29+9), and 36 TOTAL when I'm standing(30+6). What is wrong with this picture, this isn't even close to the 48hp/tick mentioned. Now Demi-Lich is Alteration, so I'm assumng it lowered the amoutn of damage I take because of that. So I tried casting it several times, I thought maybe I had to meet the specialization check.. I did every time either that or spec Alt. doens't have anything to do with it and the stats of this spell are incorrect, or mei-lich with spec alt will always lower the amount of damage that one takes. Do some tests, what did you guys find out.
RE: 48hp/31mana ? What?
Reply
#Mar 10 2004 at 4:57 AMRating: Decent
Ibamn
9 posts
The answer to this is actually quite simple. The damage that all of our convergence spells do is considered to be a detrimental PvP spell and all detrimental PvP spells will only do 75% of thier damage. You can do tests with all of the convergence spells and see that they all only do 75% of the hp damage to you compared to what is stated by lucy.
Conclusion:
Demi Lich should be 31 mana / tick, 48 hp / tick loss
Arch Lich should be 20 mana / tick, 31 hp / tick loss (when velious comes)
These changes should be permanent to the Velious timeline as they were improved in 2003.