Weighted Axe and Pets

[Daldaen]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30935

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32012

Evidence:

5/14/2000 - Everlore (https://web.archive.org/web/20010512112918/http://www.everlore.com/items/items.asp?mode=show&IID=123408)

LoL i found a true use for this weapon. Since delay no longer affects pets( do you see it comeing). While i was with a group camping Forest Arbor Gaints in Fironia Vie we looted quite of few of these along with the others stuff like Hammer of Flatening and Leg Choppers. But i guess some 1 didnt want the axe and GAVE it to my pet. (you cant sell the axe at vendors). And i cant wait till my pet can duel weild 2 handers hehe.

2/9/2001 - Allakhazam (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=3579)

Enchanter, Necromancer, Magician, and Shadow Knight pets would use a 150 delay weapon, since the dagger "nerf" made it so weapon delay has no effect on the pet's attack speed. Don't you just love seeing your pet quadding for 91 each at 25 delay? =)

I think after it was shot down twice by previous developers and then the 50% exp cost for letting your pet out damage you was properly introduced, it is high time to make this server a bit more classic

Weighted Axe for all the pets in the world!

[Nirgon]

I'll second dual wielding 2handers on pets for now.

[Mac Dretti]

I'll second dual wielding 2handers on pets for now.

[Potus]

I used to farm/buy weighted axes for this very purpose. They're fantastic pet weapons. Once SoL/PoP came out you had even more of these kinds of weapons, weighty polearms were great newbie pet weapons to hand to young necros and mages.

[tristantio]

My post 3 years ago with more links and dev reply:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30935

[Daldaen]

Bump this is extremely important and affecting my immersion.

[Rhambuk]

make pet classes more op please.

do it now.

[Daldaen]

make pet classes more Classic please.

do it now.

Fixed that for you.

[Rhambuk]

let my rogue steal magic items, and ill stop complaining about op pet class's.

wheres my classic fix....

[Tecmos Deception]

The overpoweredness of it isn't all that bad really. A summoned pet is going to either be stealing xp with no chance of outdamaging it (since you aren't going to reclaim a pet you give a wep to), or the pet class is going to be in a group so that other people benefit from the pet anyways.

It might help charmers level depending on what method you're using, otherwise it doesn't help charmers really at all because high-level mobs hit harder than 91 anyway and lower-level mobs are gonna kill a level 30 chanter if they quad for 91. Lol.

[Daldaen]

Bump for classic.

[Nirgon]

They'd wield them for sure, but I don't know if they'd be hitting for 91 with them :P.

Just like when a forest giant type drops the weighted axe he isn't hitting for 180-250 with it.

[Daldaen]

But do they hit for 90 with it? Cause I'm pretty sure that's all pets or NPCs cared about with weapons. Just DMG x 2. No DMG bonus or STR effects.

[Tecmos Deception]

Summoned pets will do (weapon damage * 2) + 1 max damage if you give them hard-hitting weapons (besides weighted axe)... so like oggok cleaver, deathbringers rod, etc.

Charmed pets don't seem to hit harder with weapons. I've been trying to get mobs in EC to hit for 61 on and off for quite a while and it never works :)

[Nirgon]

Them being able to dual wield 2h was proved in a screen shot OUT OF NOWHERE someone popped for me in another thread.

I looked for this thread but its an earth pet in Qeynos Hills dual wielding I think 2 scythes or a scythe + fs 2hander. There's some common 2handers that drop that I'm sure people would like to give to their pets for dual wielding, so this is a pretty valuable fix.

I'd be real interested to see if there's any accounts/images of mobs dropping a pair of 2handers and wielding both.

I'm strongly against any memory of pets hitting with 91 with weighted axes at normal speed.

The memory I have is weapon DELAY having an impact and them hitting for their usual damage a ton faster (removed pretty early in classic iirc).

[Nirgon]

O no... wait....

I DO remember the lvl 4 mage pet hitting for 20 with a fine steel 2hander.

Not sure about this 91dmg weighted axe business.

[Skydash]

The memory I have is weapon DELAY having an impact and them hitting for their usual damage a ton faster (removed pretty early in classic iirc).

I remember always saving FS daggers for my necro friends pet, at level 60 thats what we gave them every time. It would make them swing faster.

But I don't remember if/when this stopped working.

[Nirgon]

They cut the swing faster shit off before Kunark.

[Sinestria]

O no... wait....

I DO remember the lvl 4 mage pet hitting for 20 with a fine steel 2hander.

Not sure about this 91dmg weighted axe business.

21pts and you must have been a baller if using fine steel. A rusty 2h had the same 21pt impact

[Nirgon]

We'd hand out fine steel 2handers to the local lvl 5 PKs in Nektulos.

Or to the people fighting them if it was more entertaining. Sometimes they just happened to be pet classes.

Scumbog (lvl 5 troll SK) was my favorite, easily.

[Aelzrith]

Them being able to dual wield 2h was proved in a screen shot OUT OF NOWHERE someone popped for me in another thread.


Do you mean... THIS:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3307&stc=1&d=1348107956

Or THIS:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3306&stc=1&d=1348107944

OR THIS?!?!?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3308&stc=1&d=1348107965

Evidence exists. I believe.

[Asap]

Pets don't get dual wield until you can cast the 24th level spell, until then you are better off giving your pet a high damage 2h weapon. This is because a good 2h weapon has a better damage rating than your pet's normal damage, since attack speed is no longer affected by what your pet is wielding, giving it a weapon that doesn't up it's damage is pretty pointless (except for the coolness factor, and having it hit magic only creatures, like wisps). My advice would be either to collect stuff like scythes and 2h swords, or try summoning a staff and give it to your pet and see how it goes.
Tirranna Daystar

http://web.archive.org/web/20010611131927/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=294

[tristantio]

There was supposed to be a significant time period where the following would occur on proccing weapons + pets:


Pets could proc spells like Dismiss Summoned and it would work on any mob type (human etc.)
Pet weapon procs were not constrained by level (ie., a level 1 pet could proc Dismiss Summoned or Combustion etc.)


Seems there is a bias against re-implementing some of the classic pet features though in the name of balance. :)

[Nirgon]

Ya I meant all of the things you posted there Aelzrith. The shit is classic.

[Juhstin]

I'll second dual wielding 2handers on pets for now.

[Daldaen]

Bump. Weighted Axes should be equip able by pets through Velious. It should also modify their max damage to 90+STR calculations.

2handers should be Dual Wieldable by pets that can DW

[Haynar]

Dual weilding 2h weapons. Not prolly gonna fly.

Tried mod for damage before. Not well received. But can see what opinions are again.

H

[Daldaen]

The damage for other weapons works fine. Stuff like Lamentation Blade / Arbitor's Combine Greatsword will increase a pets damage to DMG*2 as is classic.

Weighted Axe itself is a classic issue, and in 2002 I believe it was, the item was flagged 'NO PET', along with the Chardok 2.0 Slow Staff. That is the issue.

[Potus]

Dual weilding 2h weapons. Not prolly gonna fly.

Tried mod for damage before. Not well received. But can see what opinions are again.

H

Is it because pet dual wielding is a shitstorm? :(

[tristantio]

I anticipate the day when all pet weapons are created equal

[derpcake]

Dual weilding 2h weapons. Not prolly gonna fly.
H

Why? Its classic.


Tried mod for damage before. Not well received. But can see what opinions are again.
H

On red 99 this feature already works at lower levels. Low lvl necro pet will hit for low 20s with a 11 damage weapon.

The impact of this is way bigger at low level then at higher levels, so I don't see why making it work at higher levels would be received badly.

[Jaxon]

Bump for mage pets dual wielding weighted axes. Let's play some classic EQ.

[Daldaen]

Bump.

Weighted Axe should be equippable by pets through Velious. It was not until far later on when they added the NO PET tag to Weighted Axe and Di'Zok SlowStaff

[Brocode]

bump it up! Super Pet seems fun.

[Daldaen]

Bump.

Weighted Axe should be equippable by pets through Velious. It was not until far later on when they added the NO PET tag to Weighted Axe and Di'Zok SlowStaff

[Nirgon]

I know that pets would do the same damage regardless of weapon but would accept the weapon's speed. This was nerfed real early in the game.

But notice it didn't gimp their damage when you gave them the fine steel dagger and they hit for the same during that period ... just really fast.

I do, however, remember pets being given 2 handed swords and doing more damage at low levels.

Take from that to theorycraft what you will. That shit is confusing.

Dual wielding 2h or a 1h+2h is classic tho. Makes those finesteel 2 handed staves a little less worthless.

[Grimjaw]

basically if your pets a weakling (low levels) then you could actually increase their damage by giving them a higher damage weapon. for example your pets hitting for 8s you give him a 2h with 10 damage, he'll start swinging for 20. that ratio never seems to scale its usually (weapon dmg x 2) but then once your pet starts hitting for 20s naturally, then theres very few weapons left in game to boost damage higher than that. in classic most people wouldn't be giving those to their pets that would die in a few minutes.

so ya, in classic weapon damage did matter, to an extent, but weapon speed mattered also. I guess the only question I have is would a 2h weapon actually slow their attack speed? or was it like the damage factor where it could only increase speed if it was lower delay than their natural delay? (just like giving pet a 5 dmg sword doesn't Decrease their damage output)


also can someone quote me the proof on dual welding 2h being classic? id like to see that. the only way I could see it work is if 2h went in primary and then 1h was in offhand, because no way the game would let it equip a 2h in the offhand. just like you cant equp a shield in the primary

[Nirgon]

also can someone quote me the proof on dual welding 2h being classic? id like to see that. the only way I could see it work is if 2h went in primary and then 1h was in offhand, because no way the game would let it equip a 2h in the offhand. just like you cant equp a shield in the primary

Do you mean... THIS:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3307&stc=1&d=1348107956

Or THIS:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3306&stc=1&d=1348107944

OR THIS?!?!?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3308&stc=1&d=1348107965


Dude came out of the woodwork to put the prof down for me. RE-spekt.

[Kutsumo]

I definitely remembers pets with dual scythes, and giving my lowby necro weighted axe for pet pwnage. I suppose they're letting this go non-classic because they consider it imbalanced?

[Daldaen]

I definitely remembers pets with dual scythes, and giving my lowby necro weighted axe for pet pwnage. I suppose they're letting this go non-classic because they consider it imbalanced?

It's really not that imbalanced. You need to actually carry the weapons on you, they get eaten when the pet dies, the pets still have to live through fights, with the increased damage they do they are eating 50% of your EXP each kill when solo, trains that force you to zone will make the weapon a wasted turnin.

[dafier]

I'll quote a famous person on the forum. "Shits Classic!"

Enough of that.

Yes, considering the time frame, pet's should be able to equip it and the dmg will be a noticeable difference.

[dafier]

They'd wield them for sure, but I don't know if they'd be hitting for 91 with them :P.

Just like when a forest giant type drops the weighted axe he isn't hitting for 180-250 with it.

I do remember NPC/Mobs having their dmg output changed if they were wielding X or XX weapon. Example: If they had a rusty 2H sword compared to a rusty dagger. I remember fighting a decayed skelly in GFay, with a dagger and it hit more often with less dmg, and when it had a 2H it would attack less often but sometimes hit for double digits.

As for Forest Giants in Kunark that had the weighted axe...no, I do not remember them ever hitting for the dmg you are speaking of. However, giving that same axe to my Mage pet...before the nerf, ya....it was a very nice perk.

I am referring to classic live.

[Nirgon]

Ya I got nothing on pets hitting for 100+ on a single hit when given a weighted axe

[Daldaen]

They hit like 90ish. (45 x 2)

Which is roughly in their normal hit range anyways.

Weighted Axe should increase pet and NPC damage up to 91.

See the 2nd quote on my OP.

[dafier]

Same. On the other side of it, I would have a problem with a level 28 or 29 Giant hitting me or my pet (double) for 150 or 280.

Yaaaaaaaahhhhhh

[Kutsumo]

It's really not that imbalanced. You need to actually carry the weapons on you, they get eaten when the pet dies, the pets still have to live through fights, with the increased damage they do they are eating 50% of your EXP each kill when solo, trains that force you to zone will make the weapon a wasted turnin.

I agree with you, and I don't think that "twinking" a pet class with a bunch of weighted axes is any worse than an epic rogue at level 7.

[dafier]

Weighted Axes are about to go from 2pp sold to venders to 43298794021374901237409127304982710934723147320891 74093274901237409231740923874092318749023874091238 74.....

or over 9000.

Wait for it.......

EDIT:

Just joking around there. I don't want to get off topic. Anyway, please Devs/Admins/Masters of the server. Please fix this. Allow pets to equip weighted axes. This is a humble request coming from P99 devout followers. Amen

[Uuruk]

I definitely remembers pets with dual scythes, and giving my lowby necro weighted axe for pet pwnage. I suppose they're letting this go non-classic because they consider it imbalanced?

I don't think the devs change many things based on balance. Have you played red?

[Haynar]

I don't have too big of an issue with this, except for one thing.

When equipping weapons like this, it needs to set the delay too. And the code currently doesn't support that part. I will work on it. I have to go fix torches being equipped, and treated like weapons anyways.

H

[Kaosu]

I don't have too big of an issue with this, except for one thing.

When equipping weapons like this, it needs to set the delay too. And the code currently doesn't support that part. I will work on it. I have to go fix torches being equipped, and treated like weapons anyways.

H

Delay for what? Just curious. Weapon delays shouldn't affect NPCs in general, as per OP info. Otherwise you'd get a buncha people running around, giving mobs weighted axes as some sort of indirect slow.

[tristantio]

Delay doesn't effect it classically as delay was removed from the pet weapon equation due to fine steel daggers and necro pets attacking for base damage too quickly.

Letting delay effect 2h weapons would be a nerf to existing 30/40 weapons that are given to low level pets.

Is the intent to be timeline classic or just arbitrary with pet weapon code based on personal opinion?

[ArumTP]

Weapon delay on pets was removed at the same time mage pets got to duel wield

[Daldaen]

I don't have too big of an issue with this, except for one thing.

When equipping weapons like this, it needs to set the delay too. And the code currently doesn't support that part. I will work on it. I have to go fix torches being equipped, and treated like weapons anyways.

H

The history of it went like this:

1st in EQ - Weapon Damage didn't affect NPC/Pets at all, however Delay did. The result of this was Necromancers giving their pets Fine Steel Daggers to greatly reduce the delay in their attacks (they continued to hit for their innate amount) and it allowed them to do more DPS

Then Verant decided to nerf this.

The final version (Kunark - Modern EQ) is what I am suggesting here. NPC/Pets should use the Weapon Damage and ignore the delay. The reverse of the above situation.

In our timeline, the Weapon Delay should NEVER impact Pet/NPC attacking, its not classic unless we are looking at 1999, Pre-Kunark stuff.

[Haynar]

So basically... uber pet dmg, is wanted.

[Baler]

Accurate Classic is wanted.

If this is accurate to the classic experience of kunark. (soon velious) it should be required for p99 to add it in the classic manner it was at that time period. Perhaps more sufficient evidence is needed to put the nail in the coffin.

P99 isn't about fixing the classic experience, It's about reproducing it. At least that is what I thought.

[Daldaen]

So basically... uber pet dmg, is wanted.

Its no different than feeding pets Baton's of Faith or other high DMG weapon. The only thing being asked here is that pets shield be able to wield the Weighted Axe in classic.

It does increase pet damage, yes. However with this increased DPS you have to keep your pet alive, if you are solo and your pet is doing this DPS it will out DPS you and steal 50% of your XP, you have to farm/buy Weighted Axes, etc.

[Kaosu]

So basically... uber pet dmg, is wanted.

Pretty much yeah, but the evidence does lean towards this direction.

How about this, per http://samanna.net/eq.general/pets.shtml#tulisin

6. Ratio is unimportant on weapons given to pets.
To start with, pets have a built in delay, they'll swing a 100 delay weapon and a 5 delay weapon at exactly the same speed. Damage on a weapon *can* have an effect on pet damage, however, damage on the weapon must be more than half of the pet's regular hit. Thus, if a pet hits for 50 normally, the weapon must have a damage of at least 26 (25x2 being exactly 50). So while giving a low level pet a high damage weapon will yield massive DPS increases (a level 12 pet can hit in the triple digits with a 60 damage weapon), high level pets are impossible to find damage upgrades for due to the fact that half their max hit is 50 +, and such high-damage droppable one-handers don't exist.

Ok, so thats in a few expansions past.

However

Section #5: Special notes.

There are two very special items that SoE decided pets could not use:

1. Weighted Axe, back in the day people were using this to let pets hit for massive amounts due to the high damage and the fact that pets ignore the downside (the delay). This item has a hidden "No Pets!" tag on it.

2. Di`zok Oracle Shillelagh, AKA "The Slowstick". SoE didn't like mages getting such a powerful slow. This is the only item marked with the "No Pets" tag. However, this is not the only slow proc that could be given to pets, just the only one nerfed.

There isn't very many dated timestamps for how long this actually worked for. This is my current best guess:

From alla:
Date: Feb 09 2001 at 7:43 AM
Enchanter, Necromancer, Magician, and Shadow Knight pets would use a 150 delay weapon, since the dagger "nerf" made it so weapon delay has no effect on the pet's attack speed. Don't you just love seeing your pet quadding for 91 each at 25 delay? =)


Date:May 01 2001 at 12:20 AM
Well first off im a 56 warrior on Vazaelle. I use this weapon often for opening blows. Well now i got a sash of dragonborn (i believe 50 % haste) and when my enchanter friend casts swift like the wind (75 % haste) thats 115 % haste. Which brings the ratios of this down to aroun 75 - 85. A fairly deecent delay and some beat down damage. also, its amazing seeing a friends magician pet quadding consistently for 100 damage at 25 delay.

TOP Crit.. 234 Top Crip... 512


Date: May 24 2001 at 3:26 PM

I tried giving it to my pet, it doesn't work. Sorry:( Too good to be true. Was a good thought though:) In fact, I think this worked at one point, but not anymore.

46th SK

My best guess when this was acutally nerfed: 2 months post velious release to five months at best.

Uber pet damage indeed, but considering this was a thing in kunark and pet classes haven't been able to utilize it at all even though this was during the timeline.

[Grimjaw]

so the only 2 hand weapon that was bugged and allowed pets to dual wield them was scythes?

[blondeattk]

so the only 2 hand weapon that was bugged and allowed pets to dual wield them was scythes?

no. they were just cheap.

[Halius]

My best guess when this was acutally nerfed: 2 months post velious release to five months at best.

Uber pet damage indeed, but considering this was a thing in kunark and pet classes haven't been able to utilize it at all even though this was during the timeline.

I'm not so sure about the when this stopped working. I found this post here from 2004 from elitegamerslounge saying they were able to equip a weighted axe and get 103 hits.


Katrasle_TZ

Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 11:00 am
Posts: 15
Server:
Guild:

Post
I decided to play with weapons and pets a little while ago. Gave a weighted ax to my lvl 56 monk pet (axes sell for about 20pp each on my server), pet was hitting for 103, the 150 delay doesnt effect pets.

Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:56 pm

There there is also this, from 2007 on the necrotalk forums.


encephalitis
12-18-2007, 08:21 PM
You cant give pets no drops so had to have been the regular one. Even on FV where nothing is no drop pets still follow normal rules and cant wield No Drop weapons. There are still a number of 40+ damage weapons that will work which are nice. I usually use big 2 handers up until lvl 34 pets and have done so on every mage/necro/BL I have played. Even if pet can dual wield it doesnt mean he should. Also for a laugh anyone tried a full set of 450 HP dwerium gear lol. That would be 3600 HPs from those 8 pieces not counting prime belt :P

Best bet for pet weapon is a Weighted Axe (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=11543) from the giant fort in Frontier Mountains.

45 base dmg plus 196 damage bonus is pure own at lower levels. Nice if it had HP. No biggie though. As mentioned in another thread, an easy way to level shrouds (if you so desire) is to kill in Upper Guk to get the brazier that has a charge of Summon Fire Elemental pet, shroud to level 10 or so, get a Forgotten Halls instance, click the brazier to make pet, give pet pet armor and that spiffy Weighted Axe and then just go to town on the bats.

The pet will mow them down.

Lots of people prefer proccing pet twink weapons. I just like weighted axe because I can get it in like 5 min at the giant fort, and can collect multiples to have one on hand in the bank.

Anyhow, works the same for regular pet as for this clicky-item pet. Give him armor, give him axe, and get the eff outta the way.

So I think it's safe to say that IT was possible to do, just a matter of when it stopped. Either way, it clearly should be in the timeline now. So Bump for awareness.

[Nirgon]

I can definitely attest to at least the lvl 4 necro/mage pets hitting for 20 as lowbie pks early on RZ with a fine steel 2h and delay having no effect after the fine steel dagger pet nerf (lots of info on that last one)

Got nothing on people using weighted axes on pets, gl with your research

[nilbog]

For changes to be made, Haynar will need extremely detailed information. We need these questions answered. I'm sure there will be other questions as well.

1. Pets that have a 2h weapon in primary - Should it dual wield if given another weapon? What about another 2h weapon?

2. Pets that are given two 2h weapons at once - Should they dual wield them? Or should they just visually appear to have two, yet use one?

3. Pets that are given a non-weapon item, such as a torch or shield - How should this change their behavior?

4. If an enchanter pet has a shield, and you give it a weapon - Should it dual wield? Does it matter the level?

[Daldaen]

For changes to be made, Haynar will need extremely detailed information. We need these questions answered. I'm sure there will be other questions as well.

1. Pets that have a 2h weapon in primary - Should it dual wield if given another weapon? What about another 2h weapon?

2. Pets that are given two 2h weapons at once - Should they dual wield them? Or should they just visually appear to have two, yet use one?

3. Pets that are given a non-weapon item, such as a torch or shield - How should this change their behavior?

4. If an enchanter pet has a shield, and you give it a weapon - Should it dual wield? Does it matter the level?

1. Yes it should DW when given another weapon. Yes it should wield a second 2h in offhand.

2. It should take the damage from both and double it for new max hit. If innate max hit is higher than this value no change is made. It should swing both if high enough to DW. Obviously a 2h won't make a pet magically DW at level 4. Low level pets I think will graphically use them but not DW. High level pets will DW with them.

3. Pets given a Shield or Torch should not be impacted. If they were able to DW beforehand, they will continue to do so. If they were not able to DW beforehand, they will not. It shouldn't have any impact on their swings basically.

4. Will investigate. I'm pretty sure the answer is yes you can DW a pet with a shield at a certain level, but I'll look around.

[Nirgon]

1. pet should be able to wield a pair of weapons so 1h/2h, 2h/2h is possible they will use and proc if wep has a proc

2. appear with 2, so use 2

3. honestly i never put much stock into a pet dual wielding if given torches or a shield... doesn't seem right

4. pet should check for having dual wield skill before dual wielding from my memory. i see quadding froglok shamans charmed in seb and i just know it can't be right... from memory only didn't play a chanter. Likewise I remember giving low level pets a parrying dagger to appear as if they were dual wielding and they still just went about business as usual pre-dual wield (lvl 8 necro pet for example).

Anyone got a link on the evidence that a pet with a shield or torch should dual wield? I'm not finding it just yet but could use another look

[curtischoy]

Sorry to side track a bit, but this has me a little confused.

At this time, I could give a lvl 24 mage pet a Baton of Faith and it will dual wield hit for 60s? Or I could give a lvl 4 mage pet a Baton of Faith and a torch and it will dual wield hit for 60s?