Pre-Torpor: Cann II or Can III

[loramin]

I had originally planned to just skip Cann II, and go straight to Cann III since the latter is cheaper and the quest for Cann II is a giant pain at lower levels. But then I was talking to another shaman who was saying that the ratio of Cann III is so bad I'll be wanting to use Cann II even at 60, until I get Torpor.

So I'm just curious: of those of you who are 54+ but don't yet have Torpor, which one do you use?

[thieros]

only 37, so cant guarantee the answer is right, but:

canni 2 more efficient (marathon mana)
- soloing
- main healer in groups

canni 3 less casts (sprint mana)
- buffing
- groups as not main healer

Can you get by without canni 2? probably. Is it worth getting? definitely. read through this thread for people that have tried without canni 2 and their impressions: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118326

[loramin]

Thanks for the response. The thing about that thread is, it basically says "Cann II will be worth it to get 54", but that's not relevant for me because I'm 53 closing in on 54 though.

So, getting to 54 isn't what I'm worried about; what I am worried about is memming a 3k spell that I could have sold (to get JBB money) and then never using it because I'm using Cann III instead. So I was hoping to hear from other shaman in the 54-60 range to either hear "yeah I only use Cann III now" or "I'm still using Cann II".

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I only use canni 3.

Here is a typical breakdown for Yums soloing with epic.

I will have 4 mobs root rotting at a time at 56 using paralyzingly earth. Sometimes 5 but usually 4. The epic click is best during its final ticks so you never overwrite it early. The epic dot will last 84 seconds. So, here are the numbers:

- total elapsed dot time: 84 seconds per mob.
- root cast: 2.5 seconds for paralyzingly earth (maybe 2) with 2 sec casting cool down: 4 seconds total.
- epic cast: 9 Seconds, 0 cool down.

Send suicide doge in, 4 mobs engage doge. Cast root (2cast)+(2cooldown), cast root (2cast)+ (2 cool down), cast root (2cast)+(2 cool down), cast root (2 cast)+(2 cool down), cast epic (9), cast epic (9), cast epic (9), cast epic (9).

Total time so far is 60 seconds or 10 ticks. During this 10 ticks and assuming you've already canni'd down you will have regenerated around 200hp as Barb or Ogre or about 250 as Troll/Iksar. You will need to cast canni 2 5 times in order to bring you back down to where you were for the next round meaning, if you are dancing correctly, need to spend the next 30 seconds canni dancing in order to be able to "beat" your regeneration rate.

Canni 3 Allows you to beat your regen rate and maintain mana. Oddly enough, this scenario appears to show that canni 3 would be best with enstill vs. paralyzingly earth with canni 2 coming back into the picture at 56.

FYI you can be slightly more efficient if you take advantage of the 0 cool down on epic.

Canni 2 - epic - canni 2 - epic etc...

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I only use canni 3.

Here is a typical breakdown for Yums soloing with epic.

I will have 4 mobs root rotting at a time at 56 using paralyzingly earth. Sometimes 5 but usually 4. The epic click is best during its final ticks so you never overwrite it early. The epic dot will last 84 seconds. So, here are the numbers:

- total elapsed dot time: 84 seconds per mob.
- root cast: 2.5 seconds for paralyzingly earth (maybe 2) with 2 sec casting cool down: 4 seconds total.
- epic cast: 9 Seconds, 0 cool down.

Send suicide doge in, 4 mobs engage doge. Cast root (2cast)+(2cooldown), cast root (2cast)+ (2 cool down), cast root (2cast)+(2 cool down), cast root (2 cast)+(2 cool down), cast epic (9), cast epic (9), cast epic (9), cast epic (9).

Total time so far is 60 seconds or 10 ticks. During this 10 ticks and assuming you've already canni'd down you will have regenerated around 200hp as Barb or Ogre or about 250 as Troll/Iksar. You will need to cast canni 2 5 times in order to bring you back down to where you were for the next round meaning, if you are dancing correctly, need to spend the next 30 seconds canni dancing in order to be able to "beat" your regeneration rate.

Canni 3 Allows you to beat your regen rate and maintain mana. Oddly enough, this scenario appears to show that canni 3 would be best with enstill vs. paralyzingly earth with canni 2 coming back into the picture at 56.

FYI you can be slightly more efficient if you take advantage of the 0 cool down on epic.

Canni 2 - epic - canni 2 - epic etc...

Blah blah blah blah blah.

Never actually got to the point. Illustration to show tedium of min-maxing with canni 2. Just use canni 3.

[Seducio]

With a Fungi: Canni 3 because the extra mana is noticeable but loss of hitpoints are easier to regain

Without a Fungi: Canni 2 due to efficiency

Really depends quite a bit on play style.

Balls to the wall vs. maximizing every tick

[Zeonick]

Yeah one thing i've noticed while soloing is that i'll go round up a couple mobs, get them positioned, rooted, dots started, etc. By this time i'm usually at 100% HP from sitting there regenning as i'm running about doing this. It's just nice to quickly pop a canni 3 in between casts to keep my hp down(never sit at 100% hp!) That's the main reason I switched to using canni 3. Also, canni 2 is only a little bit more efficient, yet canni 3 is faster.

[DrKvothe]

Yums, I'm still 7% from 56 so I'm using enstill in CoM (see evil shm lvling guide). I'm typically root rotting 3-5 mobs at once, needing twice as many roots and also malisement on each mob. That's considerably more casting, but I still use canni 2 to great effect.

No GCD when moving between spells and clickies helps make it work, but the real key is having the enstill/epic cycles slightly offset so that I've got room for the occasional canni and/or med tick between targets.

I'm catching very, very few med ticks. Using canni 3 would allow the occasional extra med tick, but I doubt it'd happen often enough to make up for the difference in ratio.

From the perspective of a new 54, I'd definitely get canni 2. Don't think of it as 3kpp you're losing, think about it this way: it takes 100pp (strange ocre clay) and ~2-3 hours of running around to farm one. Is it worth this cost? Yes,imho. If you want to then pay another 100pp and run around for another 2-3 hours for another to sell, go for it.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Yums, I'm still 7% from 56 so I'm using enstill in CoM (see evil shm lvling guide). I'm typically root rotting 3-5 mobs at once, needing twice as many roots and also malisement on each mob. That's considerably more casting, but I still use canni 2 to great effect.

No GCD when moving between spells and clickies helps make it work, but the real key is having the enstill/epic cycles slightly offset so that I've got room for the occasional canni and/or med tick between targets.

I'm catching very, very few med ticks. Using canni 3 would allow the occasional extra med tick, but I doubt it'd happen often enough to make up for the difference in ratio.

From the perspective of a new 54, I'd definitely get canni 2. Don't think of it as 3kpp you're losing, think about it this way: it takes 100pp (strange ocre clay) and ~2-3 hours of running around to farm one. Is it worth this cost? Yes,imho. If you want to then pay another 100pp and run around for another 2-3 hours for another to sell, go for it.

Good counter argument! I'll have to see how it all shakes out.

The only thing I really like to stagger are the roots in case I get too baked and fuck up the timing. Then I'm in trouble with 4 angry mobs on me.

Really, as long as you're able to keep your health below 100% at all items you could make the argument for canni 2.

[loramin]

Thanks for the responses everyone. It sounds like the Cann III users aren't really missing Cann II, which is encouraging. Out of curiosity, do you Cann III users (Yums and Zeonick) have Fungal Tunics?

Don't think of it as 3kpp you're losing, think about it this way: it takes 100pp (strange ocre clay) and ~2-3 hours of running around to farm one. Is it worth this cost? Yes,imho. If you want to then pay another 100pp and run around for another 2-3 hours for another to sell, go for it.

I'm actually working on doing the quest a second time now, but even once I complete it I'll still be torn, because of course I can sell both copies. Since each copy is 3/40ths of a JBB, it's not so much a question of "do I spend 2-3 hours and 100 plat or not". Instead, it's a given that I'll spend those hours/plat, and a question of "Cann II vs. 3/40ths of a JBB".

When you look at it that way, do you still think the spell is worth 3/40ths of a JBB (to a level 54)? The JBB is so awesome, and I'm so poor ...

[Exmo]

Just a note, at 54, you could solo Frenzy and get 1/4 of a JBB pretty quickly.

Or just keep getting in Seb Groups and you'll come up with some plat (or a JBB) eventually.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Thanks for the responses everyone. It sounds like the Cann III users aren't really missing Cann II, which is encouraging. Out of curiosity, do you Cann III users (Yums and Zeonick) have Fungal Tunics?



I'm actually working on doing the quest a second time now, but even once I complete it I'll still be torn, because of course I can sell both copies. Since each copy is 3/40ths of a JBB, it's not so much a question of "do I spend 2-3 hours and 100 plat or not". Instead, it's a given that I'll spend those hours/plat, and a question of "Cann II vs. 3/40ths of a JBB".

When you look at it that way, do you still think the spell is worth 3/40ths of a JBB (to a level 54)? The JBB is so awesome, and I'm so poor ...

No fungi here. Have a rubicite Bp making me the most badass looking shaman.

In terms of the jbb, I don't have one either so in couldn't tell you it's worth. It's better than nothing but not worth 40k IMO.

[Zeonick]

I do not have a fungi. Dont focus too much on getting a jbb. 40k is a ton of plat for someone to farm on their sub-60 main. Just focus on getting levels and working on your epic. The epic is a far better item than the jbb, but both combined a great also.

[Estu]

I have to concur with the above posters - there are way more important things to save money for than a JBB. Fungi is much more useful, for one thing; for another, at high levels you'll need to buy some very expensive spells (e.g. Torpor).

[DrathMaximus]

At level 59 pox costs 20% of 2150 mana, and bane 22%. So after slow/root/epic/bane/pox you're down to 44% mana - Canni2 won't come close to regening it to 100% so you can JBbracer-nuke before the dots wear off. If you have trouble with hp falling too much/fast, just wait ~ 3 to 3.5 secs after each canni for that extra hp tick using Canni3.

[loramin]

Thanks again for all the responses. I'm surprised to hear that no one thinks the JBB is that important though: back on live it was considered necessary gear for every Shaman on the Shaman's Crucible forum. I had one myself (on live) back in the day, and I remember it being awesome, but then again it's been 10+ years (and I smoked a lot of pot), so my memories are a bit fuzzy.

Just a note, at 54, you could solo Frenzy and get 1/4 of a JBB pretty quickly.

I wish: I've tried doing Guk several times now and every time I go all of the good camps are taken. If I'm ever on during off hours maybe I'll give Frenzy a try.


As for focusing on other items ...

Epic - I've got max True Spirit faction, just waiting for my guild to do some more Fear runs
Fungal Tunic - Had one of these on live too, and would love to have one again, but I'll hit 40k for a JBB *long* before I hit 100k for a fungi (and if I ever do get 60k and the JBB I could always sell it)
Spells - A lot of these are very affordable (eg. Cannabalize III), and the ones that aren't (eg. Torpor) seem so expensive that I'll never be able to afford them anyway. I figured I'd just have to do a lot of Skyfire and Seb groups and hope that some drop and I win the roll.

Is there anything else I'm missing that I should be saving my plat for instead of a JBB?

[Aaron]

I never even got Canni II - too lazy.

Count me in the camp that says JBB isn't gamebreaking. It's okay, but not required. I camped mine, so didn't spend the money on it.

JBB is a 10 second cast timefor 263 dd. During the time it takes for a couple of JBB blasts, you could have Canni'd enough mana for another DoT usually.

Fungi is much more important.

[mgellan]

Yeah one thing i've noticed while soloing is that i'll go round up a couple mobs, get them positioned, rooted, dots started, etc. By this time i'm usually at 100% HP from sitting there regenning as i'm running about doing this. It's just nice to quickly pop a canni 3 in between casts to keep my hp down(never sit at 100% hp!) That's the main reason I switched to using canni 3. Also, canni 2 is only a little bit more efficient, yet canni 3 is faster.

Yeah, this. I never tend to care about efficiency because 1. I'm sitting at full health and canni now and then to make sure I never waste regen or 2. I need mana NOW (eg buffing a raid) and I'm counting on some heals from patch healers in my group to keep the mana pool full.

Regards,
Mg

[mgellan]

JBB is a 10 second cast timefor 263 dd. During the time it takes for a couple of JBB blasts, you could have Canni'd enough mana for another DoT usually.

Spamming JBB is nice as essentially a 200ish damage manaless "DOT" in addition to epic so you can burn targets down quickly instead of waiting 3-4 cycles of epic, which can be handy if you don't want adds from repops etc. especially once you get PE at 56 and often you can take a mob down to dead without breaking root. Or, killing greens for farming mats for hats and such like with 0 downtime. I still use mine all the time at 58.5. Of course I got mine for 20k so not sure if I could justify 40k when I'm trying to save for Torpor.

Regards,
Mg

[Byrjun]

I remember no one going out of their way on live to do Canni 2 because it was considered less efficient than the original Canni spell. Apparently here it's the most efficient Canni, which is strange to me. I know the spell eventually got buffed so all I can assume is that P99 is using incorrect spell information. Although apparently they have the spdat files from this era, so who knows what I'm talking about.

Anyways, I skipped Canni 2 and I did fine. That quest is absolutely insane for a level 39, and I'm not really sure what Verant was thinking with that. Even if Canni 2 is slightly better from 39 to 54, is it worth the effort or plat required to obtain it? I don't think so.

Plus, once you get decent regen (some combination of Regrowth/Fungi Staff, Fungi Tunic, Torpor) speed is much more relevant than efficiency. So Canni 2 quickly gets phased out anyways.

Regarding spending plat... don't do it. You need to buy Torpor at level 60 because no other shaman ability even begins to compare. About a year ago it was 70-90k... apparently nowadays it goes for 135-160k. Until you have a copy of Torpor in your bags, don't worry about anything else. I don't think JBB is overrated, but it's mainly a level 60 solo tool. Without Torpor it isn't very useful. Get your epic with your guild and root rot with your epic dot solo to 60... JBB doesn't help you at all with that.

Once you get 60, Torpor, and epic, then you can consider stuff like JBB, fungi tunic, puppet strings, etc. But don't get ahead of yourself. Being a shaman can be very expensive.

[blondeattk]

wow am stunned how lazy some folk are.

FInished the quest at 38 without even trying hard. Need help of tracker in TTeeth, but theres often one there.

My advice - Get off yer lardy arse and get it done!

(the bones in KC rot all the time)

[Seducio]

This is my experience with Labido, a twinked level 56 Ogre Shaman with an HP dominant build.

The number 1 item that contributes to the all-around badassery of a shaman is a fungi tunic. This is true for all levels 1-59 and a fungi tunic appears to have major value though slightly diminished even at level 60.

At level 60, the most important item/ability of a shaman becomes Torpor which effectively alters a shaman into a demi-god compared to a 59 shaman. It's a significant jump in power and allows for long drawn out battles vs. summoning mobs.

The rest of the game changing items for a shaman all have their advantages and disadvantages that make different types of players with different play styles favor certain items while disparaging others. In truth they are all useful.

Game Changing Items/Spells for a Shaman

1. Fungi Tunic (level 1-59) = cost 90K+

tied with...

1. Spell: Torpor (Level 60) = cost 130k+

2. JBB (Level 45-60) = cost 35k+

3. Epic (Level 50-60) = cost 30k-55k depending on fight assistance

4. Fungi Covered Great Staff (Level 35-52) = cost 35k

5. Spells: Bane of Nife/Pox of Bertoxxulus (Level 56 and Level 59) = cost 30k + 25k

6. Puppet Strings (Level 60) = cost 250k+

That's over 500k right there for someone trying to max out a shaman's ability and the spells/epic can't be resold.

But with all of those clickies/tricks a shaman can rise above encounters in ways that rival a chanter. And with puppet strings they can solo kill a few mini-bosses that a enchanter might struggle with.

For the young shaman that can't afford all that stuff. I'd focus on attainable DPS style weapons/items for fast kills if you have a solo hunting style. For those looking to pursue that, I'd look into acquiring things in this order. Selling old things as you upgraded.

Level 1-19 - Jade Mace, Poison Wind Censor

Level 20-44 - Granite Face Grinder

Level 45-55+ - JBB (this thing does amazing DPS)

Level 50+ - Epic

Level 1-59+ - Fungi Tunic

Level 60 - Torpor

Yes, I am suggesting a young shaman buy a JBB before you consider a fungi tunic. It allows for self-twinking at level 45. Simply because it is more affordable than a full on fungi tunic and useful right away. It can always be sold if needed. Some would make this same argument for a fungi staff allowing for early self-twinking as low level 35.

If at any point up to level 59 a fungi tunic is a purchasable with acquired funds, it is better for a young shaman to have a fungi tunic on than a jbb or a fungi staff. The goodies do stack though. Having more than one magnifies a shaman's power.

I would agree in order to buy Torpor at 60 that all goodies should be sold needed to fund the spell, even a fungi tunic if necessary. Its silly to have platinum building up in your account like a piggy bank waiting to be spent at level 60. Use those funds early on and buy the items I just listed on your way to 60. It'll make leveling way easier.

Once a young shammie gets a pre-level 60 fungi or turns level 60 and gets torpor, Canni becomes a different animal altogether.

The short and sweet of this is that Canni 3 works better if you are rich or have some of these goodies. While Canni 2 works great for those in their 40s and early 50s that are not quite so geared out. Most shaman in their mid 50s or higher tend to start using Canni 3 anyway despite its less efficient conversion. The extra mana begins to make it worth the lack of efficiency.

Come Velious and level 58 there will only be one option though.

Canni 4 changes everything.



Regarding spending plat... don't do it. You need to buy Torpor at level 60 because no other shaman ability even begins to compare. About a year ago it was 70-90k... apparently nowadays it goes for 135-160k. Until you have a copy of Torpor in your bags, don't worry about anything else. I don't think JBB is overrated, but it's mainly a level 60 solo tool. Without Torpor it isn't very useful. Get your epic with your guild and root rot with your epic dot solo to 60... JBB doesn't help you at all with that.

Once you get 60, Torpor, and epic, then you can consider stuff like JBB, fungi tunic, puppet strings, etc. But don't get ahead of yourself. Being a shaman can be very expensive.

[Toehammer]

Although this thread sort of changed from Can III/II discussion, that is ok. What that should tell you is that it really isn't that important if you use Can III/II.

I am not so sure I agree with all the people saying you should buy certain things. The epic is very easy to get (just time consuming to get truespirit faction). Once you hit 46, you should have all the faction you need and can ask around for some help in Fear and in CoM... shouldn't be an issue. Once you have an epic and hit 51... life becomes so easy. I didn't get mine till 55 or so, but then it was faster to level 55-60 than it was 50-55.

Also, I suggest you don't buy Torpor. You should join a guild and it will probably drop for you before level 60. And if not, your guild bank might have a copy. Yes, if you have 500k, buy it... but if you are a little patient your guild will find it.

That being said, some spells are so rare you might never find them. Been looking for Bane of Nife for 2+ years. I have been in groups and seen 3 torpors, 2 pox, 2 55 shaman pets, 3 malos, but never bane of nife!

About Canni II/III, personally, I think you should do whatever you have the easiest time managing. Canni II might be best for min/max... but it takes a lot more clicking for a slight increase in efficiency. Diminishing returns. And yeah, once you get torpor... you need to use whatever can suck life out of you the fastest. In the old world Torpor+Manastone is better than Torpor+Canni III. Whatever drops your health fastest... because you can essentially be on Torpor 24/7.