What is BDA doing to work towards a raid agreement?

[Handull]

Edit: The plan BDA supports:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133456

Thank you for your concern regarding our guild's position.



OP:
All I see on the Raid Discussion forum are proposals from GMs, FE, TMO, and A-Team. To every single proposal I see BDA (most Chest), making short one liners over and over saying they don't like the proposal that was presented with little to no explanation. Other "Tier 2" guilds occasionally chime in with constructive and positive feedback.

So what is BDA doing to actively try and come to an agreement? Kicking and screaming just doesn't cut it, you need to post logical arguments, alternate plans, and in general be willing to compromise.

Yes, BDA made one post of their own on those boards, but it was an explanation of why they are angry, not what they want to do about it. Right now it seems to me that the whole server is trying hard to work together, but BDA is just saying no to everything to make waves. Am I wrong?

[arsenalpow]

FE member. Spare me the rhetoric

[Handull]

/thread

[Vandy]

Someone must have selective reading.

[Handull]

Someone must have selective reading.

sorry, missed that Divinity also made a nicely detailed raid plan. Care to link to BDA's approved plan in Raid Discussion?

[Autotune]

sorry, missed that Divinity also made a nicely detailed raid plan. Care to link to BDA's approved plan in Raid Discussion?

VS, Trak, CT, Inny should cycle by spawns T1(ffa)/ T2(ffa) / Server (ffa)

all those other targets should be T1(ffa) / T2 (ffa)

VP is just FFA

Server repops FFA

then just add your other rules

No poopsocking
disband guilds who oops train
No stalling (position and engage only, shouldn't take half a minute)

Let the retards in each tier (guilds) determine how they "FFA" their targets, let server rules (staff) determine how the rest of the FFA targets are done.

T2's don't get 50/50 T1 mobs (but they have the chance too) just like T1's don't get 50/50 (but have the chance too).

No guild has to bump out of any tier they don't want to. You don't want to race sometimes against those other guys you consider assholes... well now you don't have to.

I heard it's been approved.

[Buriedpast]

Bag limit means racing to mobs; and all the competition in the world. But with fair distribution.

[Sadad]

sorry, missed that Divinity also made a nicely detailed raid plan. Care to link to BDA's approved plan in Raid Discussion?

The plan BDA supports:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133456

Thank you for your concern regarding our guild's position.

[Hitpoint]

Anicheck seems to be reasonable. He's actually open to negotiating a little bit. Which is what all this is, a negotiation.

Edit for the guy above me: It's already been rejected like so many other plans. Lets move on.

[arsenalpow]

No need to rethink the wheel. Divinity came up with a very detailed plan and we put our support behind it.

That same plan was also agreed to by every guild except TMO and FE. Even IB signed off on it initially.

Every plan that has been proposed since by FE, Sirken, and Derubael have all had the same characteristics. Tiers to restrict the choice mobs from the casual crowd, poison pill clauses that drag guilds into the FFA shitshow against their will, inequitable splits on mobs, or all of the above. Proposing plans under different names with the same inherent characteristics isn't negotiating, it's a ruse.

There are two sides to this argument. Those who support a hardcore mindset, and those who support the casual mindset. Each side not budging is the fault of each side, not a specific party or a faction within a specific party.

[Autotune]

No need to rethink the wheel. Divinity came up with a very detailed plan and we put our support behind it.

That same plan was also agreed to by every guild except TMO and FE. Even IB signed off on it initially.

Every plan that has been proposed since by FE, Sirken, and Derubael have all had the same characteristics. Tiers to restrict the choice mobs from the casual crowd, poison pill clauses that drag guilds into the FFA shitshow against their will, inequitable splits on mobs, or all of the above. Proposing plans under different names with the same inherent characteristics isn't negotiating, it's a ruse.

There are two sides to this argument. Those who support a hardcore mindset, and those who support the casual mindset. Each side not budging is the fault of each side, not a specific party or a faction within a specific party.

hey, mine has tiers and it restricts nothing.

[Vandy]

Tier Lock Options - Anichek's edits/comments in RED

Tier 1 Mobs: Veeshan’s Peak
Tier 2 Mobs: Trak, CT, VS, Inny, Draco, Gore, Fay, Tal, Sev, Noble, Naggy, Vox


Proposal D: Tier Rotations with Tier Lock

• For the first 12 full days of every month, each tier will have staff enforced internal rotations. During this period of time, no guild may engage a mob that is not in its respective tier.
I have a concern about 10 days, but I also don't think that you will agree to 14-15 days. In order to make an educated decision, we need to know what's EXACTLY happening with variance - but I'd push for 12 days and hope that the improvement in variance makes more mobs available on both sides of the period.

• The rest of the month (Starting on the 13th at 12:01am EST: GMT-5) is FFA - No guild is excluded from any tiered mob.
Starting on the 13th at 12:01am EST: GMT-5 (plus your math is wrong if you start on the 10th at 12:01am you only gave 9 days)

Proposal E: Tier FFA with Tier Lock

• For the first 10 days of every month, each guild will be limited to the mobs within its respective tier under FFA conditions (or any conditions the respective tiers wish to work out amongst themselves). During this period of time, no guild may engage a mob that is not in its respective tier.
• The rest of the month (Starting on the 13th at 12:01am EST: GMT-5) is FFA - No guild is excluded from any tiered mob.
Same as above for Tier Rotations but FFA inside each Tier. The issue with rotations inside each Tier is that Server Staff is likely going to REQUIRE Tier mobility and entry. There's simply not enough mobs to hand out to 10-14-hell 20 Tier 2 guilds in 10-12 or even 14 days. I more support the bag limit concept - say 4 or 5 kills as the limit in the Tiered Lockout period for T2.

Restrictions to entering Tier One rotation:

• Guild must have existed for at least 2 months;
• When a guild has killed Trakanon, Inny, CT, VS, it is locked into Tier One until the expiration of the entire 30 day period.
This needs to be tweaked. I'd say any guild killing 3+ during the Tiered lock bag limit period would have to move up the following month (after the FFA period as well) - so if a guild is making a push to go to VP they actually have 30 days to ramp up by bagging out on Trak and seriously pushing during the server FFA period.

• If a guild fails to kill Trakanon, Inny, CT, or VS in a 30 day period, it is automatically moved to Tier Two for the next 30 day period.
I have no problem with this - it means you technically can push yourself out of T1 by just laying off those mobs for a month...and this only comes into play if my previously mentioned progression up to T1 tweak is applied.

Restrictions to entering Tier Two rotation:

• Guild must have existed for at least 2 months;
• Guild must have killed the Spiroc Lord in the Plane of Sky in the 30 day period previous to entering the Tier
Need to add the requirement he lists in his other option- quoting Sloan
• Guild must have killed at least one of the Tier One or Tier Two listed mobs under any condition in a one month period or risk being removed from the Tier Two bracket.

Simulated Patch Day Repops would not change anything. if the repop happens in the first 10 days of the month, they are to be handled as the above Proposals outline.
Recommended bag limits : VP (no bag limit) + 2 other mobs. Once bag limit is reached, you are on engagement lock out for 3 hours on any other raid mobs, but once 3 hours has passed you are completely FFA to engage any remaining respawns. This provides protection, should the T1 guilds opt to agree to leave VP and kill world spawns first, that they bag out at 2 each and then are locked out of VP and all other raid spawns as well. Puts a little gamesmanship into it PLUS insulates both sides of the argument

Side Rules:

• anyone caught intentionally training at raids eats a four week raid suspension along with their guild;
• respect FTE messages, anyone that ignores FTE and Kill Steals a mob will earn their guild a four week raid suspension.
This is good - but add a 60 day probationary period for once you come off of your four week raid suspension. If you do it AGAIN inside the 60 day probationary window, you are re-suspended for the remainder of the probationary period PLUS 60 more days. After that, probationary for a year, any infractions move you out of the raid scene permanently.

Okay guys, this is just what brainstormed up after a bit of reflection on Sloan's plans. Feedback? Keep in mind I'm not proposing this officially on behalf of anyone - I'm just brainstorming what I see as potential barriers, and offering potential solutions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanthallas View Post

Tier Lock Options

Tier 1 Mobs: Veeshan’s Peak
Tier 2 Mobs: Trak, CT, VS, Inny, Draco, Gore, Fay, Tal, Sev, Noble, Naggy, Vox

Proposal D: Tier Rotations with Tier Lock

• For the first 10 days of every month, each tier will have staff enforced internal rotations. During this period of time, no guild may engage a mob that is not in its respective tier.
• The rest of the month (Starting on the 10th at 12:01am EST: GMT-5) is FFA - No guild is excluded from any tiered mob.

Proposal E: Tier FFA with Tier Lock

• For the first 10 days of every month, each guild will be limited to the mobs within its respective tier under FFA conditions (or any conditions the respective tiers wish to work out amongst themselves). During this period of time, no guild may engage a mob that is not in its respective tier.
• The rest of the month (Starting on the 10th at 12:01am EST: GMT-5) is FFA - No guild is excluded from any tiered mob.

Restrictions to entering Tier One rotation:

• Guild must have existed for at least 2 months;
• When a guild has killed Trakanon, Inny, CT, VS, it is locked into Tier One until the expiration of the entire 30 day period.
• If a guild fails to kill Trakanon, Inny, CT, or VS in a 30 day period, it is automatically moved to Tier Two for the next 30 day period.
Can you clarify the restirctions for entering Tier One for me?

As I read this, youa re saying that as soon as a guild in tier 2 kills a single mob of Trak, VS, CT, Inny they are automatically moved to Tier 1 for the next month?

Also, the first portion of the month rotates these mobs from T1 to T2, so there will, in theory, every month be several guilds moving up to tier 1.


I could see this plan as possibly working with 2 changes. The first being a 14 day rotation between tiers. The second being a larger requirement to move to tier 1. Killing a single mob that is already designated for tier 2 shouldn't automatically put you into tier 1. Perhaps killing 3 of those mobs (or killing 2 of then during the FFA period). Or something similar


Look at BDA just stomping their feet.... Also I don't see anywhere that it was stated each guild had to develop their own proposal.

[arsenalpow]

Anicheck seems to be reasonable. He's actually open to negotiating a little bit. Which is what all this is, a negotiation.

Sure, Anichek has some thoughts and that's well and good, but the modifications needed to make any of Sloan's plans adequate to the casual guilds won't fly with the hardcore scene.

[Hitpoint]

Sure, Anichek has some thoughts and that's well and good, but the modifications needed to make any of Sloan's plans adequate to the casual guilds won't fly with the hardcore scene.

Curious what you think of Stealins plan? I think it's actually one of the best ones. For both it's simplicity and fairness. I don't like breaks where we can't kill mobs either. Hope this gets considered when you guys meet tomorrow.

[Mezzmur]

Curious what you think of Stealins plan? I think it's actually one of the best ones. For both it's simplicity and fairness. I don't like breaks where we can't kill mobs either. Hope this gets considered when you guys meet tomorrow.

Hitpoint, don't lie, my plan is the best. You love it.

[Tasslehofp99]

FE member. Spare me the rhetoric



One of the most objective FE members at that. He is making a fair observation, not that it matters to you. I understand your desire for change and your hard headed approach to getting things done, though. However you have to realize any good compromise is the one in which all sides walk away feeling unsatisfied after giving up something. You can't get everything you want all the time, a lesson best learned at a young age.


Good luck either way, the attitude youre bringing to the table isn't going to change anything other than people's perception of you as an individual.

[arsenalpow]

Curious what you think of Stealins plan? I think it's actually one of the best ones. For both it's simplicity and fairness. I don't like breaks where we can't kill mobs either. Hope this gets considered when you guys meet tomorrow.

I don't like the tier1/tier2/FFA rotation, a FFA target is tantamount to giving the mob directly to TMO/FE. We've all agreed that VP is the true endgame so we've all agreed to keep VP out of almost all discussions. Walling off mobs like VS and Inny from the casual guilds isn't fair to the casual guilds, they can be easily killed with two groups, they're special because they drop nice loot, not because they are hard to kill which seems to be a common argument as well (see doraf's posts in the raid forum)

[radditsu]

http://underthebutton.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Herman_Cain.jpg


My plan is still on the table

[Handull]

Thanks Sadad for a normal answer, put that in the OP.

At Vandy, not going to quote all the Chest foot stomping, waste of time for everyone.

At Chest, you don't HAVE to make your own proposal, but without reading every thread over and over, its really hard to honestly find BDA's position on things. You can think I'm just a trolling FE scum if you want, but as someone who doesn't really care and just wants to have fun (I'm having fun exping atm), I couldn't easily find your position on raiding, other than you hate all of the GM/FE/TMO plans, which you continue to make clear.

[Hitpoint]

I don't like the tier1/tier2/FFA rotation, a FFA target is tantamount to giving the mob directly to TMO/FE. We've all agreed that VP is the true endgame so we've all agreed to keep VP out of almost all discussions. Walling off mobs like VS and Inny from the casual guilds isn't fair to the casual guilds, they can be easily killed with two groups, they're special because they drop nice loot, not because they are hard to kill which seems to be a common argument as well (see doraf's posts in the raid forum)

I do think that VS and Inny are the two mobs that tier 1 can certainly lose to tier 2 in FFA weeks. Taken has inny on lock already. VS is a mob that requires "work," but it can be done by just about anyone. Full Circle got FTE and were awarded the kill on their first attempt. I know you guys don't want to do that kind of thing, but it's at least an option if other tier 2 guilds choose to.

[arsenalpow]

One of the most objective FE members at that. He is making a fair observation, not that it matters to you. I understand your desire for change and your hard headed approach to getting things done, though. However you have to realize any good compromise is the one in which all sides walk away feeling unsatisfied after giving up something. You can't get everything you want all the time, a lesson best learned at a young age.


Good luck either way, the attitude youre bringing to the table isn't going to change anything other than people's perception of you as an individual.

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

2) something else learned at a young age, sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I don't give two fucks about what any individual thinks about me. I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA and now I'm taking up the mantle of the casual as well. All of these agreements are stilted to benefit the hardcore guilds, and don't even acknowledge any guild that could be up and coming. The casuals are squarely behind rogean's plan which would give 7 guilds a 50% split of the mobs outside of VP. That's very little pie to divvy up, and even less when more guilds eventually form and work their way up to killing dragons, and you know what, we the casuals don't care. We would rather keep dividing the 50% of the pie ever smaller with more people to maintain a casual environment just to stay away from the hardcore shitshow, but apparently the hardcores need even more than 50% to satiate that pixel thirst

[Handull]

I don't like the tier1/tier2/FFA rotation, a FFA target is tantamount to giving the mob directly to TMO/FE. We've all agreed that VP is the true endgame so we've all agreed to keep VP out of almost all discussions. Walling off mobs like VS and Inny from the casual guilds isn't fair to the casual guilds, they can be easily killed with two groups, they're special because they drop nice loot, not because they are hard to kill which seems to be a common argument as well (see doraf's posts in the raid forum)

unfortunately how hard a mob isn't doesn't matter to how much people will want to kill it. Gore is a fairly hard mob, but I think most people could care less to kill it, since most of Gore's loot drops off of other mobs, and Gore isn't an epic roadblock for any class. While VS might be easy, VS almost always drops great loot (trade-able, and loot for every class). Silverwing, on the other hand, will most likely drop nothing of any value. However he can drop a few very unique and desirable items. The only reason the server is happy to leave SW to 100% ffa is that he is in a limited access zone.

this can be expanded to so many other mobs. Inny is desirable because many people have a Mage and mage epic loot is rare, as is the necro focus item. While Fay is a druid epic roadblock, since the pod became 100% drop (which was my doing, high end raiders actually try to help the server, you're welcome), its fairly common, so there isn't any huge desire for anyone to kill fay over and over.

[goshozal]

A charlatan always insists that his personal agenda coincides with the interests of the downtrodden.

[arsenalpow]

I do think that VS and Inny are the two mobs that tier 1 can certainly lose to tier 2 in FFA weeks. Taken has inny on lock already. VS is a mob that requires "work," but it can be done by just about anyone. Full Circle got FTE and were awarded the kill on their first attempt. I know you guys don't want to do that kind of thing, but it's at least an option if other tier 2 guilds choose to.

Taken doesn't want to sock Inny, they only did so because of the environment that was created by TMO/FE. They got tired of being trained each time so their hand was forced. I was there for the Full Circle FTE, in fact I was the one that ordered BDA to hate to provide support for the cause after everyone let Full Circle sock unbothered until TMO showed up and wanted to sit on the spawn point too, also actions dictated by the environment TMO created and they basically won the coin flip. I'm not willing to tolerate that type of raiding environment any longer. Full Circle's Inny sock is the current day VS sock where FE/TMO sit on VS for 100+ hours for a coin flip, how is that possibly sane and/or "competing" and that's the main problem with the hardcore mindset.

[arsenalpow]

unfortunately how hard a mob isn't doesn't matter to how much people will want to kill it. Gore is a fairly hard mob, but I think most people could care less to kill it, since most of Gore's loot drops off of other mobs, and Gore isn't an epic roadblock for any class. While VS might be easy, VS almost always drops great loot (trade-able, and loot for every class). Silverwing, on the other hand, will most likely drop nothing of any value. However he can drop a few very unique and desirable items. The only reason the server is happy to leave SW to 100% ffa is that he is in a limited access zone.

this can be expanded to so many other mobs. Inny is desirable because many people have a Mage and mage epic loot is rare, as is the necro focus item. While Fay is a druid epic roadblock, since the pod became 100% drop (which was my doing, high end raiders actually try to help the server, you're welcome), its fairly common, so there isn't any huge desire for anyone to kill fay over and over.

I'm not sure what point you're making here except that the hardcore contingent also wants loot from mobs like VS and Inny, same as the casual crowd.

[Autotune]

I don't like the tier1/tier2/FFA rotation, a FFA target is tantamount to giving the mob directly to TMO/FE. We've all agreed that VP is the true endgame so we've all agreed to keep VP out of almost all discussions. Walling off mobs like VS and Inny from the casual guilds isn't fair to the casual guilds, they can be easily killed with two groups, they're special because they drop nice loot, not because they are hard to kill which seems to be a common argument as well (see doraf's posts in the raid forum)
It's not giving them anything. It allows the first group and the 2nd group to compete against each other if they wish it. It allows guild like yours that claim they don't want to compete with the other side to stay out. It rewards people that put forth effort (from both sides).

I like you, so don't take what I say the wrong way, but I think you're only looking at it from your guild's point on this one.

I do think that VS and Inny are the two mobs that tier 1 can certainly lose to tier 2 in FFA weeks. Taken has inny on lock already. VS is a mob that requires "work," but it can be done by just about anyone. Full Circle got FTE and were awarded the kill on their first attempt. I know you guys don't want to do that kind of thing, but it's at least an option if other tier 2 guilds choose to.

This, plus Trak spawns relatively fast and will spawn faster when variance is reduced.

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

2) something else learned at a young age, sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I don't give two fucks about what any individual thinks about me. I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA and now I'm taking up the mantle of the casual as well. All of these agreements are stilted to benefit the hardcore guilds, and don't even acknowledge any guild that could be up and coming. The casuals are squarely behind rogean's plan which would give 7 guilds a 50% split of the mobs outside of VP. That's very little pie to divvy up, and even less when more guilds eventually form and work their way up to killing dragons, and you know what, we the casuals don't care. We would rather keep dividing the 50% of the pie ever smaller with more people to maintain a casual environment just to stay away from the hardcore shitshow, but apparently the hardcores need even more than 50% to satiate that pixel thirst

1)The hardcore guilds, in my proposal, "give up" Half of the T2 targets and have a chance to only gain 1/3 of T1 targets. (they can gain as much as they lose)

2) That's the whole point of the proposal I linked. Everything is shared, but no one is given anything by the proposal.

3) No proposal is going to put a casual guild "getting" equal mobs (without effort) with the mobs that the non-casual guilds "get."

Overall, the proposal I gave you gives your guilds the most room to grow and the most raiding over the period of a month and it doesn't punish your guild for wanting to step into VP if you ever wanted to (or any other guild that wishes to step in).

I agree, TMO/FE/IB have better chances to kill FFA targets in my proposal, but that's because they are better and not because they are "given" the targets.

No socking, No alt armies (when nilbog gets to it), and severe punishments for training... what do you have to worry about for BDA now (serious question so people can try to address it)?

[Handull]

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"
before 'negotiations' the hardcore guilds got almost all of the mobs and the casuals got almost nothing. during the global suspension, everyone gets nothing, so how are the hardcores being rewarded?

the hardcores are happy to give up at least some mobs to the rest of the server, so we ARE giving up something. the details of higher end mobs are contested, but can be negotiated.

even before the gm forced negotiations, fe was drafting a server raid plan.

on the last day before the global suspension, ~6 guilds were mobilizing for a CT pop. FE could have 'zerged' him down within a few minutes of him spawning, but leadership adamantly insisted on waiting 20 minutes to let other guilds engage. Taken got a chance to go in and rush CT, BDA members were zoning in, and about 90 other players were sitting in The Feerrott. After CT died another guild (Azure Guard?) zoned in, and we offered to rez their dead when they asked if they could drag corpses to us. FE wants a fun, competitive raid scene, and we are actively working for that with our words and actions.



2) sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA

riiiight......

[Handull]

Taken doesn't want to sock Inny, they only did so because of the environment that was created by DA/TR/IB/TMO & the GMs

fixed

[Tasslehofp99]

Many of the proposals being agreed upon are giving free mobs to guilds who have never even attempted to kill them/track them. Why is this not enough?

Also, your claims of taking up the mantle lf the casuals is laughable. BDA is the biggest guild on project1999 and would swallow any truly casual guild in head to head competition. This is why you are against any agreement that calls for any head to head competition. Your guild isn't tier 2(too big and capable), and you damn sure aren't tier 1 (unwilling to track/mobilize/compete)

That leaves you with 2 options, agree to compete with guilds on your level (fe/ib/tmo, also why you oppose them at every turn) ..or stomp feet till server is devoid of competition.

[arsenalpow]

It's not giving them anything. It allows the first group and the 2nd group to compete against each other if they wish it. It allows guild like yours that claim they don't want to compete with the other side to stay out. It rewards people that put forth effort (from both sides).
Again, you call it effort, i call it the toxic raid scene that i don't think deserves to be rewarded

No socking, No alt armies (when nilbog gets to it), and severe punishments for training... what do you have to worry about for BDA now (serious question so people can try to address it)?
I won't make an agreement on maybes (reduced variance, anti shithead coding)

[arsenalpow]

before 'negotiations' the hardcore guilds got almost all of the mobs and the casuals got almost nothing. during the global suspension, everyone gets nothing, so how are the hardcores being rewarded?

the hardcores are happy to give up at least some mobs to the rest of the server, so we ARE giving up something. the details of higher end mobs are contested, but can be negotiated.

even before the gm forced negotiations, fe was drafting a server raid plan.

on the last day before the global suspension, ~6 guilds were mobilizing for a CT pop. FE could have 'zerged' him down within a few minutes of him spawning, but leadership adamantly insisted on waiting 20 minutes to let other guilds engage. Taken got a chance to go in and rush CT, BDA members were zoning in, and about 90 other players were sitting in The Feerrott. After CT died another guild (Azure Guard?) zoned in, and we offered to rez their dead when they asked if they could drag corpses to us. FE wants a fun, competitive raid scene, and we are actively working for that with our words and actions.

we were zoning in to assist to Taken, BDA was still on 2hour lockout remember?

[Alarti0001]

1) the hardcore guilds are giving up nothing in these negotiations, in fact they are currently being rewarded for their behavior in the endgame. Things were shut down because of all the comPETITION and now the shitshow they've propagated is being used to say "we compete super hard, and you don't compete, so you don't deserve mobs"

2) something else learned at a young age, sharing, which I guess hasn't been learned from your side either

3) I don't give two fucks about what any individual thinks about me. I'm in these negotiations to represent the best interests of BDA and now I'm taking up the mantle of the casual as well. All of these agreements are stilted to benefit the hardcore guilds, and don't even acknowledge any guild that could be up and coming. The casuals are squarely behind rogean's plan which would give 7 guilds a 50% split of the mobs outside of VP. That's very little pie to divvy up, and even less when more guilds eventually form and work their way up to killing dragons, and you know what, we the casuals don't care. We would rather keep dividing the 50% of the pie ever smaller with more people to maintain a casual environment just to stay away from the hardcore shitshow, but apparently the hardcores need even more than 50% to satiate that pixel thirst

You are either lying or really fucking stupid. What plan has the hardcores giving up "nothing" as you put it.

[arsenalpow]

Many of the proposals being agreed upon are giving free mobs to guilds who have never even attempted to kill them/track them. Why is this not enough?

Also, your claims of taking up the mantle lf the casuals is laughable. BDA is the biggest guild on project1999 and would swallow any truly casual guild in head to head competition. This is why you are against any agreement that calls for any head to head competition. Your guild isn't tier 2(too big and capable), and you damn sure aren't tier 1 (unwilling to track/mobilize/compete)

That leaves you with 2 options, agree to compete with guilds on your level (fe/ib/tmo, also why you oppose them at every turn) ..or stomp feet till server is devoid of competition.

many guilds have refused to track mobs simply because of the environment that has persisted for a very long time, stop trying to make the argument that because a guild refused to sink to that low level of "competing" means they don't deserve to see content

bda doesn't want to swallow any casual guilds, we only want to raid without having to worry about all the BS that has been the root cause of the problems in the endgame

[Handull]

Taken doesn't want to sock Inny, they only did so because of the environment that was created by TMO/FE. They got tired of being trained each time so their hand was forced. I was there for the Full Circle FTE, in fact I was the one that ordered BDA to hate to provide support for the cause after everyone let Full Circle sock unbothered until TMO showed up and wanted to sit on the spawn point too, also actions dictated by the environment TMO created and they basically won the coin flip. I'm not willing to tolerate that type of raiding environment any longer. Full Circle's Inny sock is the current day VS sock where FE/TMO sit on VS for 100+ hours for a coin flip, how is that possibly sane and/or "competing" and that's the main problem with the hardcore mindset.

my point is you say vp is the true endgame, and I'm saying that easily over 50% of BiS gear does NOT come from VP. Feel free to give your definition, but I would say End Game = Best in Slot. If VP was a key-less zone the server would want to share that as well.

[Autotune]

Again, you call it effort, i call it the toxic raid scene that i don't think deserves to be rewarded


I won't make an agreement on maybes (reduced variance, anti shithead coding)

It's not maybes, it's going to happen.

I'll summon sirken if you wish, or deru, or ambrotos, and I'd say Nilbog and Rogean, but they're usually busy as hell.

So everything you consider toxic is being done away with (poopsocking, alt armies, training) and you're sitting here being hung up on it. The only way they are going to start removing this is when a proposal is agreed on.

Edit: Variance will be reduced as well, but I can't say by how much or in what increments once guilds are done poopsocking/raid spawn camping (hopefully because any guild that does it ends up being hit with a guild disband).

[Alarti0001]

my point is you say vp is the true endgame, and I'm saying that easily over 50% of BiS gear does NOT come from VP. Feel free to give your definition, but I would say End Game = Best in Slot. If VP was a key-less zone the server would want to share that as well.

I will gladly share Nexona/Druushk/Xygoz/Silverwing lol

[Handull]

we were zoning in to assist to Taken, BDA was still on 2hour lockout remember?

/applause?

[arsenalpow]

/applause?

ask Taken, we were all in the FE vent when it happened, thanks for the applause though

[Handull]

I will gladly share Nexona/Druushk/Xygoz/Silverwing lol

sounds good to me. we definitely need a separate vp agreement to avoid hate and rage, and rotating the ones that dont drop much would be a great start. hopefully leadership from both sides can come to an agreement on this kind of thing. and if we do a partial rotation, we can easily put in an engage time limit and allow any other guilds to compete with us if they wish, despite us not competing with each other. /cheer for getting along

[Handull]

ask Taken, we were all in the FE vent when it happened, thanks for the applause though

just don't know what to say to your comment, i was saying that we waited to promote competition, and you sounded defensive. we didn't care who engaged CT, so long as they didn't train us. I'm glad to hear other guilds were trying to work together, its the same reason FE and IB work together, its fun and we get more done. /cheer^2 for guilds getting along.

[arsenalpow]

sounds good to me. we definitely need a separate vp agreement to avoid hate and rage, and rotating the ones that dont drop much would be a great start. hopefully leadership from both sides can come to an agreement on this kind of thing. and if we do a partial rotation, we can easily put in an engage time limit and allow any other guilds to compete with us if they wish, despite us not competing with each other. /cheer for getting along

and that's the sticking point for everyone, the hardcore side is absolutely willing to give up all kinds of mobs that don't matter for the most part (gore, tal, vox, naggy, maestro, etc) but VS/Trak/Inny/CT have been the issue. Every casual player deserves to finish an epic on their own terms. No one says we don't want to track the mob, it's not a handout, we simply want to avoid all the toxic elements that have persisted since the beginning of the server.

The rogean plan allows for new guilds that are just now forming to someday jump into tier 2 and get on a rotation list and kill a VS to finish an epic. I think that's something that the majority of this server needs.

[Autotune]

If you don't think changes are coming to how things are done here, I'd just ask you to look at what's happening right now with raiding. Perhaps you guys are too deep in the thick of it to realize raiding has been stopped all together and staff members are telling you they are bringing change.

This isn't sponsored by Obama.

All you guys have to do, is show that you can pick a plan and follow through with not poopsocking.

Sirken already said he would raid suspend a guild for 4 weeks and perma ban the offending trainer (First fucking offense).

Multiple staff members cited for saying variance will be reduced if poopsocking/raid target camping is obliterated.

Nilbog was in IRC asking for suggestions on how to stop alt army parking at raid targets.

So I ask again, why are you so hung up on the past raiding practices when they are being done away with when it comes to these proposals?

[arsenalpow]

If you don't think changes are coming to how things are done here, I'd just ask you to look at what's happening right now with raiding. Perhaps you guys are too deep in the thick of it to realize raiding has been stopped all together and staff members are telling you they are bringing change.

This isn't sponsored by Obama.

All you guys have to do, is show that you can pick a plan and follow through with not poopsocking.

Sirken already said he would raid suspend a guild for 4 weeks and perma ban the offending trainer (First fucking offense).

Multiple staff members cited for saying variance will be reduced if poopsocking/raid target camping is obliterated.

Nilbog was in IRC asking for suggestions on how to stop alt army parking at raid targets.

So I ask again, why are you so hung up on the past raiding practices when they are being done away with when it comes to these proposals?

i'm hung up on it because a new method is always developed, always, that's the nature of the game. So they stop socking or training, you don't think that the hardcores will find new ways to "compete" ?

[Alarti0001]

i'm hung up on it because a new method is always developed, always, that's the nature of the game. So they stop socking or training, you don't think that the hardcores will find new ways to "compete" ?

Will probably bring in aliens.

[Autotune]

and that's the sticking point for everyone, the hardcore side is absolutely willing to give up all kinds of mobs that don't matter for the most part (gore, tal, vox, naggy, maestro, etc) but VS/Trak/Inny/CT have been the issue. Every casual player deserves to finish an epic on their own terms. No one says we don't want to track the mob, it's not a handout, we simply want to avoid all the toxic elements that have persisted since the beginning of the server.

The rogean plan allows for new guilds that are just now forming to someday jump into tier 2 and get on a rotation list and kill a VS to finish an epic. I think that's something that the majority of this server needs.

VS/Trak/Inny/CT

You aren't geting 50/50 of these. Staff already said that. The best you guys could hope for is what I mentioned and that's only because if you agreed to it, then the guilds who talk about being better and put in more effort would have to put up or shut up when it comes to the FFA round.

I know for a fact, that with the raiding changes, there are T2 guilds who will get some of the FFA VS/Trak/Inny/CT's that spawn on those days (CT probably being the least likely, but also the most likely for a guild to end up with 4 weeks of vacation).

[arsenalpow]

Will probably bring in aliens.

there has never not been an escalation of tactics, the most hardcore will always find a way, you can't pretend that this hasn't been the nature of the game since it started

[Autotune]

i'm hung up on it because a new method is always developed, always, that's the nature of the game. So they stop socking or training, you don't think that the hardcores will find new ways to "compete" ?

There will always be the most efficient way to do something. However, I can assure you that if it's anything resembling rule lawyering or rule skirting that it's going to be met with the end of a nasty ban hammer.

CSR is done playing around (if people haven't noticed).

Even then, say it does happen and it's not dealt with swiftly.

You still have the option of falling back completely into your own set of targets that are outside of the FE/TMO/(IB?) guilds which still consists of the same mobs they gain.

[Uteunayr]

and that's the sticking point for everyone, the hardcore side is absolutely willing to give up all kinds of mobs that don't matter for the most part (gore, tal, vox, naggy, maestro, etc) but VS/Trak/Inny/CT have been the issue. Every casual player deserves to finish an epic on their own terms. No one says we don't want to track the mob, it's not a handout, we simply want to avoid all the toxic elements that have persisted since the beginning of the server.

The rogean plan allows for new guilds that are just now forming to someday jump into tier 2 and get on a rotation list and kill a VS to finish an epic. I think that's something that the majority of this server needs.

It's such a big part. There is probably nothing more fundamentally EverQuest than the epics. That's a big part for a lot of people who come to the game. It doesn't deserved to be locked behind one particular type of raiding attitude, going after one particular type of classic. Yes, they are hard, and yes, the resources are scarce, and nothing about this plan changes that. It just makes it so you're not forced to buy them due to the content being on lockdown.

VS/Trak/Inny/CT

You aren't geting 50/50 of these. Staff already said that. The best you guys could hope for is what I mentioned and that's only because if you agreed to it, then the guilds who talk about being better and put in more effort would have to put up or shut up when it comes to the FFA round.

I know for a fact, that with the raiding changes, there are T2 guilds who will get some of the FFA VS/Trak/Inny/CT's that spawn on those days (CT probably being the least likely, but also the most likely for a guild to end up with 4 weeks of vacation).

GMs have said this, but not all staff nor all GMs are of a single mind. This is compromise, it is discussion, and everyone has a different view. It is the "staff" proposal that suggests a 50/50 split on these.

[arsenalpow]

VS/Trak/Inny/CT

You aren't geting 50/50 of these. Staff already said that. The best you guys could hope for is what I mentioned and that's only because if you agreed to it, then the guilds who talk about being better and put in more effort would have to put up or shut up when it comes to the FFA round.

I know for a fact, that with the raiding changes, there are T2 guilds who will get some of the FFA VS/Trak/Inny/CT's that spawn on those days (CT probably being the least likely, but also the most likely for a guild to end up with 4 weeks of vacation).

i could get on board with the VS/Trak/Inny/CT being a 1/2/ffa split only if other concessions were made as well from the hardcore side, such as full repops carrying over the current tier of mobs, fairly large windows (something like 6 hours to benefit the very casual) and that tier 2 mobs never fall into a sitaution where they can just be sniped by tier 1, and no clauses that drag tier 2 guilds into tier 1

[Handull]

and that's the sticking point for everyone, the hardcore side is absolutely willing to give up all kinds of mobs that don't matter for the most part (gore, tal, vox, naggy, maestro, etc) but VS/Trak/Inny/CT have been the issue. Every casual player deserves to finish an epic on their own terms. No one says we don't want to track the mob, it's not a handout, we simply want to avoid all the toxic elements that have persisted since the beginning of the server.

The rogean plan allows for new guilds that are just now forming to someday jump into tier 2 and get on a rotation list and kill a VS to finish an epic. I think that's something that the majority of this server needs.

imo VS is more about all the nice legs that drop, (and wizard epic). I still don't have my VS legs, and its not for lack of trying. Trak is both a super rare epic block, great BPs, and access to VP. Inny is fairly rare epic loots that, again, 'Tier 1' guilds still need for mains. CT also has rare epic loot as well as some really nice items and probably the best vanity item in the game that everyone wants. TMO and FE do get new members who are just starting out, and they also want epics, as do older members who haven't been so lucky. Yes, when epic MQs were being sold left and right, it was a bit insulting to the general player base, which is part of the reason why FE got off the ground, and now you don't see such rampant epic MQ sales. we all agree things need to change, and we can agree on the 'lesser' mobs, but we need to find a real compromise for the high end non-vp mobs. one side wants 100% ffa, other sides wants an even split. neither side will get what they want. Stealin's proposal offers a compromise, I haven't read up on some of the newer proposals otherwise to know what they offer. If you want to present a plan that compromises the two sides, I think it would be appreciated by everyone.

I wonder if there's any chance we all make an agreement to the "lesser mobs" now and get started raiding/rotation/whatever them, while we figure out the bigger mobs. Obviously VP would be off limits until everything else was settled to be fair.

quick edit: also keep planes +draco/maestro locked until full agreement to also keep it fair

[Uteunayr]

i could get on board with the VS/Trak/Inny/CT being a 1/2/ffa split only if other concessions were made as well from the hardcore side, such as full repops carrying over the current tier of mobs, fairly large windows (something like 6 hours to benefit the very casual) and that tier 2 mobs never fall into a sitaution where they can just be sniped by tier 1, and no clauses that drag tier 2 guilds into tier 1

So, you suggest that:

1st CT: Tier 1 Lock (Tier 1 guilds likely do FFA as their tier's preferred allocation style)
2nd CT: Tier 2 Lock (Tier 2 guilds likely do some form of friendly raiding, however they decide), with a few hours of leeway for the Tier 2 people to clear their lock, in whatever way Tier 2 guilds decide to allocate their locks.
3rd CT: FFA (Most likely Tier 1, but with the potential for a Tier 2 to put up and try to take it through more aggressive competition)
4th CT: Tier 1 Lock
etc.

This is less than 50% of the split, but it maintains that there are epic mobs in the casual play base for them to get their epics. Not as much, but enough, and a casual guild that really puts up (for the FFA) can earn through a hardcore style of play, an additional CT.

If that's right, that seems interesting. The most important thing is that it creates a system in which no one guild can stranglehold epic mobs again, so players that work hard in their respective tiers have the potential to earn their epic, without being forced to buy it from the upper tiers.

[Autotune]

i could get on board with the VS/Trak/Inny/CT being a 1/2/ffa split only if other concessions were made as well from the hardcore side, such as full repops carrying over the current tier of mobs, fairly large windows (something like 6 hours to benefit the very casual) and that tier 2 mobs never fall into a sitaution where they can just be sniped by tier 1, and no clauses that drag tier 2 guilds into tier 1

I think you guys are going to find that Repops are going to have a rule set by the staff entirely and that it's most likely going to contain bag limits. Nearly every staff suggestion I have seen puts repops down like that.

My proposal doesn't promote guilds from one category to the other. You guys can stay in T2 forever for all anyone cares, as long as you aren't upsetting your peers.

My proposal doesn't mention any clause that allows a T1 or T2 guild to pick up a target that isn't spawned for that bracket. Everything I've seen talked about before would leave it around 4hrs before something like that happened (a raid target being left up for 4hrs would become FFA << Example).

[Autotune]

So, you suggest that:

1st CT: Tier 1 Lock
2nd CT: Tier 2 Lock
3rd CT: FFA (Most likely Tier 1)
4th CT: Tier 1 Lock
etc.

This is less than 50% of the split, but it maintains that there are epic mobs in the casual play base for them to get their epics. Not as much, but enough, and a casual guild that really puts up (for the FFA) can earn through a hardcore style of play, an additional CT.

If that's right, that seems interesting. That should be considered thoroughly as a way to compromise on the "Staff" plan.

That's exactly right and being that it's split over 4 different raid targets, the odds that the overall count (all spawns of those 4 mobs during a month) it has a great chance of evening out around 50% for both sides. (this is excluding repops atm)

[arsenalpow]

how close did i get?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134043

[Autotune]

how close did i get?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134043

I'd kiss you for the ban alarti from the forums part.

Close enough, I'm sure some refining can be accomplished.

[Handull]

as for repops, I think the best way to do things is to force the 'tier 1' guilds to clear VP before they can leave. they will all be racing for PD first, almost hands down, but forcing them to clear all 6 vp dragons before leaving will give the general server plenty of time to get to work on the rest of the mobs. if you really want to add a kill limit to that as well, I would suggest making it an "outside vp" kill limit. last repop everything was dead in about 2 hours, with maybe vox taking a little over 2 hours to kill. if you say 2-3 mob limit outside VP and put in a place nice policy (to be explained), then the VP guilds can pick up the loose trash, but won't get any of the main targets. place nice policy should be if another guild is in zone with a force, let them go first. IE TMO leaves VP once all 6 are dead and rushes out of VP into Sky through PD's room. They see Taken has 25 in zone and Dojo is still up, they give Taken first engage on Dojo, since Taken was there first, unless of course Taken had just wiped and is CRing. (speaking of which, Dojo is often missing from these raid agreements). Sure, it can happen where its not clear who was there first, and maybe then you race for fte, but gm's can enforce any guild being a dick, and they have now proven their desire to step in. to say the GM's haven't done anything in the past is a valid point, but now they have stopped all raiding, the times they are a-changin'. (this is just one idea)

[arsenalpow]

as for repops, I think the best way to do things is to force the 'tier 1' guilds to clear VP before they can leave. they will all be racing for PD first, almost hands down, but forcing them to clear all 6 vp dragons before leaving will give the general server plenty of time to get to work on the rest of the mobs. if you really want to add a kill limit to that as well, I would suggest making it an "outside vp" kill limit. last repop everything was dead in about 2 hours, with maybe vox taking a little over 2 hours to kill. if you say 2-3 mob limit outside VP and put in a place nice policy (to be explained), then the VP guilds can pick up the loose trash, but won't get any of the main targets. place nice policy should be if another guild is in zone with a force, let them go first. IE TMO leaves VP once all 6 are dead and rushes out of VP into Sky through PD's room. They see Taken has 25 in zone and Dojo is still up, they give Taken first engage on Dojo, since Taken was there first, unless of course Taken had just wiped and is CRing. (speaking of which, Dojo is often missing from these raid agreements). Sure, it can happen where its not clear who was there first, and maybe then you race for fte, but gm's can enforce any guild being a dick, and they have now proven their desire to step in. to say the GM's haven't done anything in the past is a valid point, but now they have stopped all raiding, the times they are a-changin'. (this is just one idea)

fanfuckingtastic idea

[Uteunayr]

how close did i get?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134043

Could probably be rewritten more diplomatically... But yes, all the key points seem there, lol.

I'd kiss you for the ban alarti from the forums part.

Close enough, I'm sure some refining can be accomplished.

Electrolytes had me laughing, personally. It's what plants crave.

[Autotune]

as for repops, I think the best way to do things is to force the 'tier 1' guilds to clear VP before they can leave. they will all be racing for PD first, almost hands down, but forcing them to clear all 6 vp dragons before leaving will give the general server plenty of time to get to work on the rest of the mobs. if you really want to add a kill limit to that as well, I would suggest making it an "outside vp" kill limit. last repop everything was dead in about 2 hours, with maybe vox taking a little over 2 hours to kill. if you say 2-3 mob limit outside VP and put in a place nice policy (to be explained), then the VP guilds can pick up the loose trash, but won't get any of the main targets. place nice policy should be if another guild is in zone with a force, let them go first. IE TMO leaves VP once all 6 are dead and rushes out of VP into Sky through PD's room. They see Taken has 25 in zone and Dojo is still up, they give Taken first engage on Dojo, since Taken was there first, unless of course Taken had just wiped and is CRing. (speaking of which, Dojo is often missing from these raid agreements). Sure, it can happen where its not clear who was there first, and maybe then you race for fte, but gm's can enforce any guild being a dick, and they have now proven their desire to step in. to say the GM's haven't done anything in the past is a valid point, but now they have stopped all raiding, the times they are a-changin'. (this is just one idea)

I don't think that's going to fly. I think an overall baglimit and letting every guild go for whatever is the only way it's going to work.

I personally would love to see guilds(other than tmo/fe/ib) going into VP to kill targets on repop days without having to deal with TMO/FE/IB breathing down their necks and at the same time not having to worry about getting promoted out of their bracket.

TL;DR, I don't think T1 guilds should be forced to kill VP and I don't think T2 guilds should be punished for attempting VP (on repops at least).

[Handull]

as for moving between tiers, I think with stealin's system and guild can voluntarily move tiers, provided they aren't active in VP, as long as they are forced to wait 1 month to switch from their declaration of wanting to switch, to prevent tier hopping.

[Autotune]

as for moving between tiers, I think with stealin's system and guild can voluntarily move tiers, provided they aren't active in VP, as long as they are forced to wait 1 month to switch from their declaration of wanting to switch, to prevent tier hopping.

This is what you have

T1 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3
T2 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3

VP is FFA as well as 1/3 of the Inny/CT/VS/Trak spawns.


T1 is more "competitive" and stands to gain the FFA targets more (they put their money where their mouth is)
T2 is more leaning towards a rotation and don't stand to gain as much among each other.

The top tier mobs that FE/TMO/IB want Inny/CT/VS/Trak (which has been the reason every proposal has failed almost) basically have their rule set applied twice (unless they decide to change their FFA mentality)

FE/TMO/IB would be retarded to not take this proposal, unless they are afraid to lose the FFA rounds.

[Handull]

I don't think that's going to fly. I think an overall baglimit and letting every guild go for whatever is the only way it's going to work.

I personally would love to see guilds(other than tmo/fe/ib) going into VP to kill targets on repop days without having to deal with TMO/FE/IB breathing down their necks and at the same time not having to worry about getting promoted out of their bracket.

TL;DR, I don't think T1 guilds should be forced to kill VP and I don't think T2 guilds should be punished for attempting VP (on repops at least).

yeah, its a tough matter of opinion. i think that right now only bda is capable of going into vp, and chest has said they'd just as well stay out of vp.

if you are going to put a mob limit and time lock out, i think you need to add in that its not a 2hour from repop lockout, but a 2hour from last kill lockout. otherwise if 2 vp mobs are left up, tmo/fe will have a field day with who gets first engage. but if we know that tmo killed two vp dragons b4 fe did, then they get first shot by default. i just really want to avoid any situation where a mob is 95% of the time going to be up and FTE will be open at a set time, which is likely for vp mobs.

on a repop PD will be the hardcores first choice, if it wasn't, hardcores would jump guilds imo. finishing vp after pd makes sense to me from the standpoint of a raider who hasn't cleared VP ad nausium. I can see where tmo might not like this idea, for understandable reasons.

[Handull]

This is what you have

T1 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3
T2 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3

VP is FFA as well as 1/3 of the Inny/CT/VS/Trak spawns.


T1 is more "competitive" and stands to gain the FFA targets more (they put their money where their mouth is)
T2 is more leaning towards a rotation and don't stand to gain as much among each other.

The top tier mobs that FE/TMO/IB want Inny/CT/VS/Trak (which has been the reason every proposal has failed almost) basically have their rule set applied twice (unless they decide to change their FFA mentality)

FE/TMO/IB would be retarded to not take this proposal, unless they are afraid to lose the FFA rounds.
your proposal sounds good to me, but i'm not an officer, and i'm also pretty flexible at this point cause i just want to have fun and not bicker on the forums.

[Autotune]

yeah, its a tough matter of opinion. i think that right now only bda is capable of going into vp, and chest has said they'd just as well stay out of vp.

if you are going to put a mob limit and time lock out, i think you need to add in that its not a 2hour from repop lockout, but a 2hour from last kill lockout. otherwise if 2 vp mobs are left up, tmo/fe will have a field day with who gets first engage. but if we know that tmo killed two vp dragons b4 fe did, then they get first shot by default. i just really want to avoid any situation where a mob is 95% of the time going to be up and FTE will be open at a set time, which is likely for vp mobs.

on a repop PD will be the hardcores first choice, if it wasn't, hardcores would jump guilds imo. finishing vp after pd makes sense to me from the standpoint of a raider who hasn't cleared VP ad nausium. I can see where tmo might not like this idea, for understandable reasons.

Imagine it like this. You have BDA who has keys, FE/TMO/IB all bag'd out and mobs still in vp.

BDA hosts a VP on a repop day and allows other t2 guilds to bring their VP keyed characters to experience VP and BDA uses their baglimit in VP.

I think it's incredibly reasonable.

Chest, his guild, and T2 guys from other guilds get to experience VP without TMO/FE/IB in the mix and without punishment of "advancing to a toxic bracket". I think Chest would like that, as well as the other T2 guys.

[Handull]

Imagine it like this. You have BDA who has keys, FE/TMO/IB all bag'd out and mobs still in vp.

BDA hosts a VP on a repop day and allows other t2 guilds to bring their VP keyed characters to experience VP and BDA uses their baglimit in VP.

I think it's incredibly reasonable.

Chest, his guild, and T2 guys from other guilds get to experience VP without TMO/FE/IB in the mix and without punishment of "advancing to a toxic bracket". I think Chest would like that, as well as the other T2 guys.

same scenario, remove the "moving tiers" thing for repops, and bda+randoms can go for VP ez mobs (SW is best bet) while tmo/fe race for PD. We'll want to get to PD asap, and if gms are serious about no training, should be a "non toxic" environment

[Handull]

and if epics are their concern, they'll all be going for non-vp targets anyway.

[uygi]

Chest, you're still the best friend I have on this server. You know as well as I do that BDA is capable of competing with just about any guild; the issue is that you don't want the level of poop intensity historically required. Beyond any lawyered out rules, both TMO and FE have made it clear we're hoping to un-poop things because the extremes of the one-upsmanship game are, as you and so many others are quick to point out, absolutely fucking stupid. Nobody blames you for not wanting to, and you've made it clear over the last 2.5 weeks that BDA is certainly capable when they choose to make the effort.

When TMO got raid suspended you came to me looking to open up some dialog, and that's exactly what happened and a good thing came about. The idea behind having an agreement isn't supposed to be about legislating exactly who gets what when and how. The idea is to clean up what is currently a toxic environment, and to allow some access to content for guilds willing to do an appropriate amount of work. Nobody is insisting that 4AM batphones, instant engages with endless DA stalls or VP trainwars are appropriate, because just about everyone agrees that things have gone way too far. You reached out to me and FE to foster a non-toxic environment, even temporarily, and it honestly worked out pretty well. BDA ended up with a large share of mobs, and guilds willing to do a modicum of work got in a kill or three.

I personally think that guilds willing to go to greater lengths need to be rewarded with a larger share of the pie. If we're REALLY trying to split all the guilds into two categories, BDA is a strong contender to be in the top tier. Set head-to-head, BDA would have no trouble defeating the IB of today, and over the last year there have been a lot of mob pops that, had BDA been even loosely tracking, they could have mobilized to (without even having camped out) and gotten a kill on. The primary reason I left BDA was because there was virtually no will to put in even some effort to go after opportunistic situations. In the last... 5 months or so?.. BDA has put in effort to take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves, and I've been really happy to see it. If the spirit of Rogean's original ultimatum gets followed at all, BDA will do just fine.

[Autotune]

same scenario, remove the "moving tiers" thing for repops, and bda+randoms can go for VP ez mobs (SW is best bet) while tmo/fe race for PD. We'll want to get to PD asap, and if gms are serious about no training, should be a "non toxic" environment

Yeah, nothing would stop BDA on repops to entering VP and going for targets (nor should it imo) right away.

I'm just saying, if he wanted to avoid them all together, he could hold his baglimit and then go or hit a target outside and then one in VP... or whatever.

The whole proposal is about dividing the different styles, keeping the competition between the styles, and remaining flexible and easy to follow.

I don't see a less complicated system that is anywhere as close to fair for all parties involved as this one.

[Handull]

Yeah, nothing would stop BDA on repops to entering VP and going for targets (nor should it imo) right away.

I'm just saying, if he wanted to avoid them all together, he could hold his baglimit and then go or hit a target outside and then one in VP... or whatever.

The whole proposal is about dividing the different styles, keeping the competition between the styles, and remaining flexible and easy to follow.

I don't see a less complicated system that is anywhere as close to fair for all parties involved as this one.

also can't igore that chest liked my idea :P

[Handull]

PS are we really making progress in this thread? it seems like it to me, which i find very exciting

[Autotune]

PS are we really making progress in this thread? it seems like it to me, which i find very exciting

I think I can get just about any guild on board with this and even staff, if people put aside their pride.

Just all depends on what person from the guild I have to deal with directly.

[khanable]

this thread started off like my parents

angry as hell at each other and drinking

and then they made something beautiful

[Handull]

this thread started off like my parents

angry as hell at each other and drinking

and then they made something beautiful

i stared out sober and serious, got more drunk as i went on, if we're being honest ;)

edit: tho i was being a bit cheeky

[Razdeline]

No need to rethink the wheel. Divinity came up with a very detailed plan and we put our support behind it.

That same plan was also agreed to by every guild except TMO and FE. Even IB signed off on it initially.

Every plan that has been proposed since by FE, Sirken, and Derubael have all had the same characteristics. Tiers to restrict the choice mobs from the casual crowd, poison pill clauses that drag guilds into the FFA shitshow against their will, inequitable splits on mobs, or all of the above. Proposing plans under different names with the same inherent characteristics isn't negotiating, it's a ruse.

There are two sides to this argument. Those who support a hardcore mindset, and those who support the casual mindset. Each side not budging is the fault of each side, not a specific party or a faction within a specific party.

Then why even play? Seriously, this game is purely and fundamentally FFA.

Stop using the argument that there will be trains, that you won't get mobs(you will get more mobs with ANY of these plans than in the past), and that the raid scene will be this absolute quintessential shit show that it was. Everyone has agreed and is trying to move past that, however it seems you are unable to.

I am hoping you do not represent BDA entirely. By reading everything in the raid discussion it is clear you are overly emotional to make any type of logical and sane argument or proposal.

[Autotune]

Then why even play? Seriously, this game is purely and fundamentally FFA.

Stop using the argument that there will be trains, that you won't get mobs(you will get more mobs with ANY of these plans than in the past), and that the raid scene will be this absolute quintessential shit show that it was. Everyone has agreed and is trying to move past that, however it seems you are unable to.

I am hoping you do not represent BDA entirely. By reading everything in the raid discussion it is clear you are overly emotional to make any type of logical and sane argument or proposal.

T1 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3
T2 - 50/50 of all raid targets outside VP, excluding Inny/CT/VS/Trak which is 1/3

VP is FFA as well as 1/3 of the Inny/CT/VS/Trak spawns.


T1 is more "competitive" and stands to gain the FFA targets more (they put their money where their mouth is)
T2 is more leaning towards a rotation and don't stand to gain as much among each other.

The top tier mobs that FE/TMO/IB want Inny/CT/VS/Trak (which has been the reason every proposal has failed almost) basically have their rule set applied twice (unless they decide to change their FFA mentality)

T1 = TMO / FE / IB (if they choose)
T2 = all other guilds

T1 = their own rules
T2 = Their own rules

Any new guild can choose which to jump into, but are locked into it. This means any guild can choose between 2 different raiding styles and there are still ffa targets for the entire server (however they are heavily contested).

Repops still need to be addressed on how they'd be handled by staff/players, but everything seems to suggest FFA with a small bag limit.


Tier lock duration, as well as many other things are left open to debate and refine.

Raz, would you support this?

Also, where is my sig picture i made you?

[Razdeline]

I just read the raid discussion and it seems that Chest is coming around, great.

Personally, I always thought a simple system(like this one) would be best and has room for flexibility in the future. No one is really going to know if they like any of these proposals until they are implemented, that's why I think a variety of them should be implemented in some sort of consecutive manner. If we take a step back and actually read and think about each proposal, you would see that all of them cater to specific play-styles and philosophies.

This game was designed purely FFA. Maybe because instancing was not thought of for this at the time. I think because of this, it has given us wonderful drama and stories that we remember 10+ years later. I played WOW for a few years and can't recall any specific exciting or overly shitty moment. I enjoy that this game relates to real life in terms of survival of the fittest, social interaction, and economics. Definitely an phenomena of it's time.

The big picture here is that we can't forget the philosophy as to why everyone is playing here in the first place.

P.S. I can't remember! I think I was drunk one night and changing them a while ago. I am not sure! Make me a new one?!

[Autotune]

I just read the raid discussion and it seems that Chest is coming around, great.

Personally, I always thought a simple system(like this one) would be best and has room for flexibility in the future. No one is really going to know if they like any of these proposals until they are implemented, that's why I think a variety of them should be implemented in some sort of consecutive manner. If we take a step back and actually read and think about each proposal, you would see that all of them cater to specific play-styles and philosophies.

This game was designed purely FFA. Maybe because instancing was not thought of for this at the time. I think because of this, it has given us wonderful drama and stories that we remember 10+ years later. I played WOW for a few years and can't recall any specific exciting or overly shitty moment. I enjoy that this game relates to real life in terms of survival of the fittest, social interaction, and economics. Definitely an phenomena of it's time.

The big picture here is that we can't forget the philosophy as to why everyone is playing here in the first place.

P.S. I can't remember! I think I was drunk one night and changing them a while ago. I am not sure! Make me a new one?!

Ah, good to hear (see). Seems several people from all the guilds I have talked to so far could go for raiding under something like this. Just have to get them to see what people can and can't live without from the different guilds (looks like everyone still has hang ups about things that can be adjusted)

P.S. WHAT!? That thing was a one of a kind... I don't know if I can pull something like that off again. Maybe I'll give it a shot one day when I'm feeling artistic.

[Brut]

Beyond any lawyered out rules, both TMO and FE have made it clear we're hoping to un-poop things because the extremes of the one-upsmanship game are, as you and so many others are quick to point out, absolutely fucking stupid.
/cheer

Just going on endlessly about how toxic the raidscene is and how these and those want nothing to do with it is silly. What the raidscene needs is antibiotics, not amputation. Pretty sure the big idea was to make this more playable for everyone so that we can go into Velious and beyond (as if - no yiffing allowed), but past days have consisted of nothing but bickering about # of CTs and VSs per month.

[doraf]

Will probably bring in aliens.

HAHAHAHA

[YendorLootmonkey]

If one of the points of contention is guilds taking down targets they don't need to sell epic MQs, is it a possibility to turn off the ability to MQ epics?

Or to bring in the Velious changes that remove epic bottlenecks (VS Remains, etc) ahead of schedule?

[Swish]

If one of the points of contention is guilds taking down targets they don't need to sell epic MQs, is it a possibility to turn off the ability to MQ epics?

This. Why do guildbanks with 100k-millions of plat need to sell epic MQs? Or twink a member's 6th alt?

Remove MQs and I'd say the raid agreement would be much easier to reach.

[Rhambuk]

This. Why do guildbanks with 100k-millions of plat need to sell epic MQs? Or twink a member's 6th alt?

Remove MQs and I'd say the raid agreement would be much easier to reach.

You can remove mq's they will still try to keep those mobs on lockdown and either

1) the items will rot

B) they will sell the loot rights

[YendorLootmonkey]

You can remove mq's they will still try to keep those mobs on lockdown and either

1) the items will rot

This is exactly the kind of douchebaggery that landed us in this position, so I hope this sentiment is history.

B) they will sell the loot rights

Make this bannable, as it is counterproductive to the community/health of the server and, again, part of the reason we are in this position now.

[radditsu]

At least with "loot rights" they would have to be a decent level to get the item. 46 for planes etc etc.

[Thulack]

your proposal sounds good to me, but i'm not an officer, and i'm also pretty flexible at this point cause i just want to have fun and not bicker on the forums.

Monopolizing content is fun to you? Should go play Monopoly then.

[Draagun]

Another reason people want to come back to EQ is that most MMOs have done away with winners and losers. Life hasn't. In some schools, they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. Failing grades have been abolished and class valedictorians scrapped, lest anyone's feelings be hurt. Effort is as important as results. This, of course, bears not the slightest resemblance to anything in real life. This element on P99 makes it more real.

[radditsu]

Is eq real life?

Parents need to teach children about real life. Not 15 year old elf sims

[Rhambuk]

Is eq real life?

Parents need to teach children about real life. Not 15 year old elf sims

That's a grade A sig right there

[Daldaen]

I'm a bit torn on the epic MQ thing.

On one hand, I think if you have lots of plat, you should be able to throw it into a twink or a new guildmates Rogue or Cleric Epic.

On the other hand, people are making a 'living' (in that it is their primary source of in-game income) off these MQs. To the point that you will see an Epic'd Rogue pick-pocketting in Neriak or Kaladim, or an epic'd Cleric camping Bergugle or Gimblox. (or a toon not of that class even). This blocks players who are trying to do their epic for themselves, which I have a problem with. Forcing players to have to buy their epic and blocking them from really doing the quest as it was intended.

The Velious epic changes are long overdue IMO. SOME of these are fixes to Kunark content, not Velious content. SOME are indirectly Velious content.

Bards - Spawned Trak via UDB --- Post-Velious Content?
Clerics - Spawned Zordak via Pearlescent Shards (/wrists) --- Post-Velious Content?
Druids - Spawned VSR / Fay
Magicians - Earth Staff off male revenants
Necros - Slime Blood off Golems --- Velious Content
Necros - Eye of Innoruuk off Hate Minis --- Velious Content
Rangers - Spawned VSR
ShadowKnight - Soul Leech off Golems --- Velious Content
Warrior - Hand off Hand --- Velious Content
Wizard - Cazic Skin replaced by broken golem

I forget when the Bard/Cleric epics were changed but I seem to recall hearing it was post-Velious. Some of those fixes coincide with Planar updates in Hate and Fear.

Unfortunately you really need the Velious Planar update to remove the issues on VS, CT, Inny as far as epics go. But the 4 bolded ones would lessen it a little bit. I'm to the point where I think just releasing the Velious Planar updates, with Iksar Armor, Minis and Epic pieces moved to trash/minis would be beneficial to the server. No more 1.0 Planes... 4 years has been enough.

[Rooj]

Whether MQing epics is classic or not, it should be removed. We've already dealt with so much stuff that isn't classic already, I wouldn't see what the big deal is. MQing epics is not one of my EQ classic memories, and is not the reason that we play EQ. It is detrimental to the server... So frankly no one should want it. I'd say Nilbog probably agrees.

[Rhambuk]

Whether MQing epics is classic or not, it should be removed. We've already dealt with so much stuff that isn't classic already, I wouldn't see what the big deal is. MQing epics is not one of my EQ classic memories, and is not the reason that we play EQ. It is detrimental to the server... So frankly no one should want it. I'd say Nilbog probably agrees.

It does have its benefits, which with the new raid rules may be very useful.

once the new raid rules go in we'll be seeing casual guilds getting these mobs and it would be too bad to see epic drops rot because of missing class's, especially when those guilds and players need them/have been waiting so long to just log on and hear oh btw we killed vs last night and your drop rotted, sorry!

its just a shame it has been abused so badly here.

[heazels]

It does have its benefits, which with the new raid rules may be very useful.

once the new raid rules go in we'll be seeing casual guilds getting these mobs and it would be too bad to see epic drops rot because of missing class's, especially when those guilds and players need them/have been waiting so long to just log on and hear oh btw we killed vs last night and your drop rotted, sorry!

its just a shame it has been abused so badly here.

whether it helps someone or not, it makes sure mobs that drop epic pieces arent overcamped bc people want to make some plat.

[Rhambuk]

whether it helps someone or not, it makes sure mobs that drop epic pieces arent overcamped bc people want to make some plat.

its true, it needs to happen(imo).

people here are too knowledgeable we know all the loopholes, we know how every aspect of the game works, except for bugs which are exploitable and bannable. If theres a way of profiting on it, people will do it.

[Man0warr]

Fix the epic MQ's somehow, or implement the post-Velious epic mob updates, and I have no doubt the Tier 2 guilds will agree to one of the non Rogean proposals.

Everything hinges on people wanting to get their epics and not having to pay TMO's outrageous prices.

This also seems to be the reason TMO/FE don't want to let the Tier 2 people have any rotation on Trak/Inny/VS/CT - they would lose their biggest source of income.

There's a reason Verant made those changes - this same shit had started to happen on Live servers.

[Aaron]

Whether MQing epics is classic or not, it should be removed. We've already dealt with so much stuff that isn't classic already, I wouldn't see what the big deal is. MQing epics is not one of my EQ classic memories, and is not the reason that we play EQ. It is detrimental to the server... So frankly no one should want it. I'd say Nilbog probably agrees.

Actually no. Nilbog doesn't agree at all. He has stated as much.

Wells, I always hoped to get an mq for quillmane cloak for my magician epic on live, so as far as it being classic, it is. If you're purely referring to players < lvl 45 obtaining epics, there's an open bug report needing more information and discussion.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=91574

Willing to listen to reasonable arguments.

I did spend quite a bit of time making sure all those quests, individually perl written, were mqable, because that's fucking classic.

The argument you're trying to make, I think, is for the lower level players not being able to get them with platinum.

So, the same as anything else, I want to certainly try the classic method before modifying anything. As an example you mentioned, variance.

[Tycko]

hardcore side is absolutely willing to give up all kinds of mobs that don't matter for the most part

I'm not a chest fan but this seems to ring truth .

[heartbrand]

As a red player can someone explain the differentiation between a tier 1 and tier 2 guild? VS is two groupable as is faydedar. Almost all mobs in the game excluding hoshkar / nexona are doable with sub 20 players. What am I missing here?

[Man0warr]

The difference seems to be those who are willing to log in at 3am to kill mobs or poopsock are considered Tier 1.

The guilds who don't want (not can't) to resort to such tactics are "casual" Tier 2 guilds.

[Hitpoint]

As a red player can someone explain the differentiation between a tier 1 and tier 2 guild? VS is two groupable as is faydedar. Almost all mobs in the game excluding hoshkar / nexona are doable with sub 20 players. What am I missing here?

Reward is the difference. The more rewarding targets are t1.

[Arteker]

As a red player can someone explain the differentiation between a tier 1 and tier 2 guild? VS is two groupable as is faydedar. Almost all mobs in the game excluding hoshkar / nexona are doable with sub 20 players. What am I missing here?

20 perfect players in a ideal set up, aka wow style, a guild in everquest isnt made of 2 wars-4 clerics -1 shaman-1 enc -2 monk and 10 rogues .

[Clark]

Kicking and screaming just doesn't cut it, you need to post logical arguments, alternate plans, and in general be willing to compromise.

Also BDA is the largest guild on the server and has the most people online any given point of day 24/7. Tier 2? I think not.

[kotton05]

I like mr cumbers and skarry a lot, but my god why must chest just say opposed to everything. You're the largest guild on the server yet you have had littlest impact. I cringe at the posts I read :-/

[Ravager]

Also BDA is the largest guild on the server and has the most people online any given point of day 24/7. Tier 2? I think not.

If you're saying tiers should be based on guild size, that's fine. We'll take VP, you can be tier 2.

[Aeaolena]

Also BDA is the largest guild on the server and has the most people online any given point of day 24/7. Tier 2? I think not.

http://i.imgur.com/c8eSBDC.gif

[Uteunayr]

http://i.imgur.com/c8eSBDC.gif

^

You know, on the other thread, I wrote out about 1000 word response to the comment that BDA is tier 1 because of capability, rather than because of our intent. This gif does that job far better than my brief essay to elucidate the counter-point. So, if anyone wants to see it articulated, switch over to Page 13 of "With all due respect, Sirken, you're no Solomon.", but really, this gif does the work.

[Beguiled]

As a red player can someone explain the differentiation between a tier 1 and tier 2 guild? VS is two groupable as is faydedar. Almost all mobs in the game excluding hoshkar / nexona are doable with sub 20 players. What am I missing here?

Just my two cents.

I am not a big name nor am I able to heavily influence guilds.

From paying some attention to the forums this appears to be the source of confusion that should be clarified. Whether on the server forums or in the raid discussion forums.

People are bandying T1 and T2 about with regards to two different things and it should be clarified better imo.

Some people are referring to what appears to be a ranking of guilds or guild abilities and the other are ranking the Raid Target in a degree of usefulness or value of loot table. If that makes sense.

I think it is quite possible that because of the terminology without clarification it is just creating further confusion.

[khanable]

I like mr cumbers and skarry a lot

I like you too, friend.

<3

[Uteunayr]

People are bandying T1 and T2 about with regards to two different things and it should be clarified better imo.

This is exactly the issue. The people I see writing from FE seem to be splitting it based on capability, as they want everyone to still be playing the same cutthroat competitive game. The people I see from BDA and others are splitting it on intent, as each side wants to play their own type of classic experience. By FE's split, BDA would be tier 1, but from what I gather from many of my guildmates, that is not the game we're looking to play, which is why the staff proposal is so adored, as it lets each side play the game their own way, all the time. Even the other propositions offered, such as 10 days of mob rotation between the tiers, etc., and the rest of the month is FFA, that's still making the casual/tier 2 players play the game the hardcore/tier 1 players want to play. And that's atrocious. That is morally and philosophically a horrible thing to do. Let the two sides play their own game all month long, in the style that they like the most. Done.

What's the fear here? What's the problem? Are hardcore/tier 1 raiders afraid that their environment isn't welcoming enough or appealing enough to players that they will be able to sustain their own playstyle independent of doing it on the backs of putting down casual guilds? Are they fearful that people will see casual competition, or casual rotation, and see that as a far better alternative to cutthroat competition, and refuse to be a part of their hardcore cutthroat style? Or do they feel that the game would become meaningless without casuals to stomp over, and drag into their shitshow? It clearly isn't just competition, because the staff plan lets each side have the type of competition they want. There is some secondary motive at work here. If tier 1 wants to offer a type of competition that can appeal to the people of the server, then people will join Tier 1 in greater numbers of compete. If they don't, it's because they don't like the style, and the environment those guilds create for themselves.

If it really is just mobs, then the amended Rogean/Staff plan that gives the epic mobs a Tier 1->Tier 2->FFA rotation should be passed immediately, as it fulfills all requirements. The only thing it doesn't fulfill is forcing casuals to play the way they don't want.

[Vandy]

Also BDA is the largest guild on the server and has the most people online any given point of day 24/7. Tier 2? I think not.

Just because a guild has a lot of players online doesn't mean that everyone has multiple lvl 60 characters that can be camped out at targets that are in window. They may have 150 people online in various spots all over Norrath but they still have no chnace when Trak spawns against a group with a full force buffed and ready to go at Sebilis.

[Rupertox]

supremacy, tier 1?

[Sadad]

Also BDA is the largest guild on the server and has the most people online any given point of day 24/7. Tier 2? I think not.

If we are the biggest guild on the server, it's because people want to play our style of EQ rather than yours. It's not an indication that we should play your style of EQ.

[Clark]

If we are the biggest guild on the server, it's because people want to play our style of EQ rather than yours. It's not an indication that we should play your style of EQ.

Sure as hell doesn't mean you are entitled to terrorize the rest of the server with fucking ridiculous demands.

[Uteunayr]

Sure as hell doesn't mean you are entitled to terrorize the rest of the server with fucking ridiculous demands.

If you truly see it as ridiculous, you really need to read some theory about what is fairness, and then really question what your definition of fair is. You'll find you're terribly mistaken. Fairness as defined the way you have been, to justify these claims as ridiculous, is archaic. To say that BDA has been "terrorizing" is rather silly, given the entire argument from the guild through the negotiations has been about defending the equal rights of those that seek to enjoy this game in a different way than your conception of fun, in their sense of what is a classic EverQuest experience. You are the one seeking to maintain every inch of power by asserting and forcing your play style over the rest of the server to force them to play the game the way you want, and in other words, make them come down to your level.

[kotton05]

you act like you don't want our playstyle or that our playstyle is so wrong, but you def batphoned vox tal draco all at varying hours from early early morning/mid day/late night. so don't act like you have some play style that's so unique and diff than us. FE did what they had to do to get pixels from TMO unlike most.

[Swifty]

you act like you don't want our playstyle or that our playstyle is so wrong, but you def batphoned vox tal draco all at varying hours from early early morning/mid day/late night. so don't act like you have some play style that's so unique and diff than us. .

30 BDA logs in 30 secs after Vox pop, Casual as fuck.

[Verenity]

you act like you don't want our playstyle or that our playstyle is so wrong, but you def batphoned vox tal draco all at varying hours from early early morning/mid day/late night. so don't act like you have some play style that's so unique and diff than us. FE did what they had to do to get pixels from TMO unlike most.

The ignorance is astounding. It's cool though, this isn't the first time a hardcore guild has had an odd obsession with flaming BDA. Funny, the last time it was happening it was when we as a guild tried to do exactly what FE is trying to do now and we decided that it wasn't worth it.

Congrats that all your hard work is finally starting to pay off, but don't act like what you're doing makes you so superior to us or any other guild who doesn't want to play how you do.

[BlkCamel]

I know I have no standing on this but here would be my tier's and what separates them.

Tier 1: TMO/FE,IB/BDA
Tier 2: Every other guild on the server.

Here is why. Tier 1 guilds prior to all of this were actively competing for Raid targets against each other. All 3 guilds Forum-quested and socked multiple in game targets trying to get as much as they could.

Tier 2 guilds either went along their business or only targeted 1 or 2 targets that were important to their guild. They were not actively trying to engage the other guilds on every Raid Target.

TMO/IB,FE/BDA were all neck n neck in both forum-questing and Everquest-ing on multiple raid targets. I did not see this from the other guilds and that is what separates tier 1 from tier 2. Tier 1 guilds want to compete for all Raid Targets and get as much as they can. Tier 2 guilds just seem to want a piece of the pie and are happy to have it. Tier 2 guilds may change targets from time to time but they are not trying to monopolize content like tier 1 guilds are.

Some will argue Taken should be included if BDA is but if using the above criteria, I say no way.

As far as VP is concerned. It is the top raiding content in the game. If you are competing for VP loot you are a Tier 1 guild. If anything this is a separate qualifier not related to the previous argument. A guild like Taken, or A-team, or Divinity. If they go after VP loot they must accept they are doing the highest tier content in this game and are Tier 1 guilds no questions asked.

If a guild wants to stay tier 2 or claim tier 2 status, all they have to do is stay out of VP, and not contest every raid mob on the server. The second you do either it is clear where you stand.

If BDA wants to be a tier 2 guild give them that chance, but remind them that this means they cannot compete on every mob. If they want to, then they accept their Tier 1 status.

[Swifty]

Tier 1: TMO/FE,IB/BDA
Tier 1 status.

Donde esta la Taken?

[BlkCamel]

Donde esta la Taken?


Tier 1: TMO/FE,IB/BDA
Tier 2: Every other guild on the server.

TMO/IB,FE/BDA were all neck n neck in both forum-questing and Everquest-ing on multiple raid targets. I did not see this from the other guilds and that is what separates tier 1 from tier 2. Tier 1 guilds want to compete for all Raid Targets and get as much as they can. Tier 2 guilds just seem to want a piece of the pie and are happy to have it. Tier 2 guilds may change targets from time to time but they are not trying to monopolize content like tier 1 guilds are.

Some will argue Taken should be included if BDA is but if using the above criteria, I say no way.

Taken does not compete for every mob, nor from the outside appear to want to.

[Razdeline]

The ignorance is astounding. It's cool though, this isn't the first time a hardcore guild has had an odd obsession with flaming BDA. Funny, the last time it was happening it was when we as a guild tried to do exactly what FE is trying to do now and we decided that it wasn't worth it.

Congrats that all your hard work is finally starting to pay off, but don't act like what you're doing makes you so superior to us or any other guild who doesn't want to play how you do.

But the ones that did think it was worth it broke off and formed FE. Your history is missing that fine detail :)

[Uteunayr]

you act like you don't want our playstyle or that our playstyle is so wrong, but you def batphoned vox tal draco all at varying hours from early early morning/mid day/late night. so don't act like you have some play style that's so unique and diff than us. FE did what they had to do to get pixels from TMO unlike most.

Doing what is necessary to see the content is not the same as aspiring to that style.

First off, yes, by and large, the majority of us do not want that play style. We join BDA because it is advertised and lives up to being a casual raiding guild.

Secondly, no, your playstyle is not wrong. I never said it was wrong. I said that it is not the play style we seek. There are two major differences between those two things. In one case, the first, I'd be saying that what you are doing is morally reprehensible. No, I am not saying that. You clearly enjoy the hardcore competition, the cutthroat behavior, and that's just fine. Some people like League of Legends, others don't. It doesn't make you right or wrong for liking something.

Third, I will state for a fact that many of us don't like this play style. You all may enjoy waking up at 3am while trying to get sleep for work, to drag yourself to your computer, and race for a mob. You all just might, and again (see above), that's fine. The rest of us don't. The others of us, the casuals of us do not enjoy doing that shit. That isn't the classic we seek. But that's the classic that is created when you have tyranny forcing their play style upon others on the server just to see content.

Lastly, do not make the fallacy of equating the fact that BDA has people who are willing to play your game, with BDA having people who want to play your game. The vast majority of people in BDA come to this game to have a lot of fun with a group of friends in a relaxed raiding environment. It is purely because of people like You, that we have to do shit like batphone, just so see the content. In return, we try to be as relaxed and and fun loving as possible given the requirement to do what hardcores do just to see the content.

So, please try to read what I have written, and understand the words, rather than lashing out. You are saying that just because we do what we are forced to do by your system that you force down our throats, that we want that system. That is not correct.

If a guild wants to stay tier 2 or claim tier 2 status, all they have to do is stay out of VP, and not contest every raid mob on the server. The second you do either it is clear where you stand.

If BDA wants to be a tier 2 guild give them that chance, but remind them that this means they cannot compete on every mob. If they want to, then they accept their Tier 1 status.

I am not my guild leadership, by any means, but reading through the responses, and the proposals from my guild's leaders over the course of the negotiations, I do not think anyone was saying that you could go into VP and try to bring the casual playstyle with you. So, I do not think this qualifier is going to be difficult. If BDA decides that VP is something we want, and we decide we want to continue to play the shitshow of a raiding scene created by the top guilds for the sake of hardcore, cutthroat competition (which is fine for them, but a lot of others don't like, neither is right, these are opinions and feelings of fun we're talking about, not everyone enjoys the same stuff).

But the ones that did think it was worth it broke off and formed FE. Your history is missing that fine detail :)

You weren't responding to me, but I am taking this quote to point out that, again, those people had a different conception of what is fun, and what they wanted to do with their time in the game to build their classic experience. That's fine, but not everyone thinks the same way. This is the issue that comes up between our guilds so much, because FE members or leaders (I truly do not know who is who without a tag in their signature) seem to want everyone to compete, everyone to play their style of hardcore competition, whereas not everyone wants to do that.

That is why I fully supported Rogean's Plan. Not only because there exist years of scientific research that are applicable to these types of situations, and that Rogean's is one of the strongest forms for a lasting resolution of conflict, but that it lets each side do what they want with their share of the toys, and balance is preserved so long as neither side gets more greedy. Let each play the way they want, all month long, rather than playing the way they want, only for the first week, or first two weeks, or what have you. That way, each side plays the game they want, relives their classic experience, and never has to delve into the other style's atmosphere. It is, with certainly, what will bring about conflict. The current resolution and agreement is a great step, but it still has casuals playing the hardcore game for a hefty portion of the month, and this will not, and there is absolutely no scientific or logical reason to think it will, create lasting reduction in conflict between guilds.

[radditsu]

Doing what is necessary to see the content is not the same as aspiring to that style.

First off, yes, by and large, the majority of us do not want that play style. We join BDA because it is advertised and lives up to being a casual raiding guild.

Secondly, no, your playstyle is not wrong. I never said it was wrong. I said that it is not the play style we seek. There are two major differences between those two things. In one case, the first, I'd be saying that what you are doing is morally reprehensible. No, I am not saying that. You clearly enjoy the hardcore competition, the cutthroat behavior, and that's just fine. Some people like League of Legends, others don't. It doesn't make you right or wrong for liking something.

Third, I will state for a fact that many of us don't like this play style. You all may enjoy waking up at 3am while trying to get sleep for work, to drag yourself to your computer, and race for a mob. You all just might, and again (see above), that's fine. The rest of us don't. The others of us, the casuals of us do not enjoy doing that shit. That isn't the classic we seek. But that's the classic that is created when you have tyranny forcing their play style upon others on the server just to see content.

Lastly, do not make the fallacy of equating the fact that BDA has people who are willing to play your game, with BDA having people who want to play your game. The vast majority of people in BDA come to this game to have a lot of fun with a group of friends in a relaxed raiding environment. It is purely because of people like You, that we have to do shit like batphone, just so see the content. In return, we try to be as relaxed and and fun loving as possible given the requirement to do what hardcores do just to see the content.

So, please try to read what I have written, and understand the words, rather than lashing out. You are saying that just because we do what we are forced to do by your system that you force down our throats, that we want that system. That is not correct.



I am not my guild leadership, by any means, but reading through the responses, and the proposals from my guild's leaders over the course of the negotiations, I do not think anyone was saying that you could go into VP and try to bring the casual playstyle with you. So, I do not think this qualifier is going to be difficult. If BDA decides that VP is something we want, and we decide we want to continue to play the shitshow of a raiding scene created by the top guilds for the sake of hardcore, cutthroat competition (which is fine for them, but a lot of others don't like, neither is right, these are opinions and feelings of fun we're talking about, not everyone enjoys the same stuff).



You weren't responding to me, but I am taking this quote to point out that, again, those people had a different conception of what is fun, and what they wanted to do with their time in the game to build their classic experience. That's fine, but not everyone thinks the same way. This is the issue that comes up between our guilds so much, because FE members or leaders (I truly do not know who is who without a tag in their signature) seem to want everyone to compete, everyone to play their style of hardcore competition, whereas not everyone wants to do that.

That is why I fully supported Rogean's Plan. Not only because there exist years of scientific research that are applicable to these types of situations, and that Rogean's is one of the strongest forms for a lasting resolution of conflict, but that it lets each side do what they want with their share of the toys, and balance is preserved so long as neither side gets more greedy. Let each play the way they want, all month long, rather than playing the way they want, only for the first week, or first two weeks, or what have you. That way, each side plays the game they want, relives their classic experience, and never has to delve into the other style's atmosphere. It is, with certainly, what will bring about conflict. The current resolution and agreement is a great step, but it still has casuals playing the hardcore game for a hefty portion of the month, and this will not, and there is absolutely no scientific or logical reason to think it will, create lasting reduction in conflict between guilds.

Hah saw the sig, you need to admit they were LONG sentences!

Also you have typed roughly 100k words on this subject. It was finally time to bust the chops of this young lawyer.


We live in the twitterverse, deal

[Gnomersy]

Couple guilds shit the server up, in response the GMs give them more merbs!!!!! Eeeerrrmmmaaaggghheeerd. Time for a changing of the guard with the CSR staff. You cater to the 15% I'd imagine mostly because they donate. If that's the case call a spade a spade "deruken" and tell us you are catering to the people that financially support the server. That way we at least know this is a pay to win server.

Status quo unflinching.

Thank you to Div/taken/Ateam and the other guilds not part of the inner circle for trying to unseat hitler and Stalin.

Come up with a plan together they said, we'll enforce it they said. Hehe nvm "The staff"( read FE) came up with an awesome plan and YOU ARE GONNA LIKE IT damnit. Oh we hedged with the "ongoing talks" farce too.

[Razdeline]

Doing what is necessary to see the content is not the same as aspiring to that style.

First off, yes, by and large, the majority of us do not want that play style. We join BDA because it is advertised and lives up to being a casual raiding guild.

Secondly, no, your playstyle is not wrong. I never said it was wrong. I said that it is not the play style we seek. There are two major differences between those two things. In one case, the first, I'd be saying that what you are doing is morally reprehensible. No, I am not saying that. You clearly enjoy the hardcore competition, the cutthroat behavior, and that's just fine. Some people like League of Legends, others don't. It doesn't make you right or wrong for liking something.

Third, I will state for a fact that many of us don't like this play style. You all may enjoy waking up at 3am while trying to get sleep for work, to drag yourself to your computer, and race for a mob. You all just might, and again (see above), that's fine. The rest of us don't. The others of us, the casuals of us do not enjoy doing that shit. That isn't the classic we seek. But that's the classic that is created when you have tyranny forcing their play style upon others on the server just to see content.

Lastly, do not make the fallacy of equating the fact that BDA has people who are willing to play your game, with BDA having people who want to play your game. The vast majority of people in BDA come to this game to have a lot of fun with a group of friends in a relaxed raiding environment. It is purely because of people like You, that we have to do shit like batphone, just so see the content. In return, we try to be as relaxed and and fun loving as possible given the requirement to do what hardcores do just to see the content.

So, please try to read what I have written, and understand the words, rather than lashing out. You are saying that just because we do what we are forced to do by your system that you force down our throats, that we want that system. That is not correct.



I am not my guild leadership, by any means, but reading through the responses, and the proposals from my guild's leaders over the course of the negotiations, I do not think anyone was saying that you could go into VP and try to bring the casual playstyle with you. So, I do not think this qualifier is going to be difficult. If BDA decides that VP is something we want, and we decide we want to continue to play the shitshow of a raiding scene created by the top guilds for the sake of hardcore, cutthroat competition (which is fine for them, but a lot of others don't like, neither is right, these are opinions and feelings of fun we're talking about, not everyone enjoys the same stuff).



You weren't responding to me, but I am taking this quote to point out that, again, those people had a different conception of what is fun, and what they wanted to do with their time in the game to build their classic experience. That's fine, but not everyone thinks the same way. This is the issue that comes up between our guilds so much, because FE members or leaders (I truly do not know who is who without a tag in their signature) seem to want everyone to compete, everyone to play their style of hardcore competition, whereas not everyone wants to do that.

That is why I fully supported Rogean's Plan. Not only because there exist years of scientific research that are applicable to these types of situations, and that Rogean's is one of the strongest forms for a lasting resolution of conflict, but that it lets each side do what they want with their share of the toys, and balance is preserved so long as neither side gets more greedy. Let each play the way they want, all month long, rather than playing the way they want, only for the first week, or first two weeks, or what have you. That way, each side plays the game they want, relives their classic experience, and never has to delve into the other style's atmosphere. It is, with certainly, what will bring about conflict. The current resolution and agreement is a great step, but it still has casuals playing the hardcore game for a hefty portion of the month, and this will not, and there is absolutely no scientific or logical reason to think it will, create lasting reduction in conflict between guilds.

My point is that not everyone in BDA or any non-hardcore guild wants to settle for the "Status Quo". Some of those members want to raid more often, and by doing so there are only a few choices. Join IB/FE/TMO. People from the "lower tier" guilds have, and will continue to leave for a more profound raid scene. This is something that has happened from the beginning of time in MMO's.

Now the more interesting thing is, people that typically leave lower tier raid guilds for guilds such as IB/TMO/FE rarely ever return to their lower tier raiding.

[uygi]

This also seems to be the reason TMO/FE don't want to let the Tier 2 people have any rotation on Trak/Inny/VS/CT - they would lose their biggest source of income.

TMO has made massive amounts of cash from epic MQs, although it seems/seemed to me like there were only a lot of them sold back when TMO got 95-100% of mobs. Once the loot pie got sliced by FE I didn't see nearly so many epics sold... do remember that both guilds still need at least some epics for their members. Also, both TMO and FE reimburse their members for raid expenses like portstones, EEs and peridots, financed through guildbank sales.

Also, AFAIK FE has sold just one epic MQ, a Maestro hand.

Another note... I think having at least some epics be sold as MQs gives epic access to people that couldn't get them otherwise. If the raid scene is going to open up and more people will have access to these drops (than before!), that should hopefully cut down on the people that NEED to buy them; many will get them free when they wait their turn, others could choose to buy them.

[Droog007]

What's the fear here? What's the problem? Are hardcore/tier 1 raiders afraid that their environment isn't welcoming enough or appealing enough to players that they will be able to sustain their own playstyle independent of doing it on the backs of putting down casual guilds? Are they fearful that people will see casual competition, or casual rotation, and see that as a far better alternative to cutthroat competition, and refuse to be a part of their hardcore cutthroat style?

^ This ^

Hardcores have lost their exclusivity, which I believe so many of them thrived on... I predict that many of them will get bored and move on now that casual scum will be able to get their hands on much of the same coveted loot that used to immediately identify them as being among the elite. Maybe Velious will come in time, maybe it won't ...

There's also a high road now; one that doesn't lead the kinder, gentler guilds into their ugly trap of rampant asshattery.

<narrowly resists quoting Stairway to Heaven>

[sanluen]

So many words in this thread.

[Blink]

I hate Chest for making me agree with TMO for the first time in my life.

[Blink]

Fun fact: FE was formed because of Chest's inability to compromise.

Kinda funny to see it yet again.

[Hitpoint]

^ This ^

Hardcores have lost their exclusivity, which I believe so many of them thrived on... I predict that many of them will get bored and move on now that casual scum will be able to get their hands on much of the same coveted loot that used to immediately identify them as being among the elite. Maybe Velious will come in time, maybe it won't ...

There's also a high road now; one that doesn't lead the kinder, gentler guilds into their ugly trap of rampant asshattery.

<narrowly resists quoting Stairway to Heaven>

Why are no hardcores complaining about the new deal then? While basically every bda member is.

[radditsu]

Wasnt that hand part of extinuating (bouncerr) circumstances as well?

Fe has never even had the chance to shit up the server!

Fe fought the power dawgs.

[Uteunayr]

Hah saw the sig, you need to admit they were LONG sentences!

Also you have typed roughly 100k words on this subject. It was finally time to bust the chops of this young lawyer.

We live in the twitterverse, deal

I'll never accept making my language more dumb for the sake of the general population. :P

I'll accept elaborating things in more simple ways, but I'll not give into twitter speak.

I do not think they were long sentences. A long sentence takes up 4-5 lines of a regular sheet of paper.

As for 100k words, is that in every post I have written, or in the post you're responding to? Because I am quite certain that that wasn't in the post you responded to. Further, how certain are you that it is 100k? Did you copy and paste everything I wrote into a word document and do a word add? Just curious how you came to 100k. Lol.

My point is that not everyone in BDA or any non-hardcore guild wants to settle for the "Status Quo". Some of those members want to raid more often, and by doing so there are only a few choices. Join IB/FE/TMO. People from the "lower tier" guilds have, and will continue to leave for a more profound raid scene. This is something that has happened from the beginning of time in MMO's.

Now the more interesting thing is, people that typically leave lower tier raid guilds for guilds such as IB/TMO/FE rarely ever return to their lower tier raiding.

And if Rogean's Plan was successful, this is what would be seen. If BDA decided, as a group, that we wanted to be hardcore, and we wanted to get the vast majority of the mobs on the server (or a shot at them, rather), and we wanted VP, then we would enter the hardcore territory. However, if BDA continued to decide, as a group, that we wanted to remain more casual, earn our epics, have a fun time through cooperation or through friendly competition, we can do that. Those that don't like the decision will find a place that better suits them, and in the end, they would be happier with that choice because they are playing the game the way they want to play it. The problem is, most casuals on this server are being forced to play it the hardcore way, the way they don't want to play it, if they want to see the content they never got to. Hardcores would be equally as upset if they were forced to play casual all day.

Again, that's the beauty of Rogean's System. Each side can be themselves, and they can do it within their own sphere. People can decide "Hmm, do I want to be more hardcore, or casual? Well, my guild is more (hardcore/casual), but I don't really want to deal with that play style, as it isn't fun for me. I'll go join this other guild, or I'll see if my guild wants to switch styles". This way, everyone gets the experience they want. The cost? The hardcores get to compete over only 3 mobs a day. The benefits are endless. Hardcores can compete, casuals can casual, and both can do it without fucking with the other. People can sort themselves into the sphere of play style they want, and they can do it without feeling they are forced to take one to relive their classic experience (unless they really want VP, but that was surrendered in the plan).

Why are no hardcores complaining about the new deal then? While basically every bda member is.

Those that are fine, and accepting of the deal in BDA are quiet about it, as many others in other guilds are. It is a human nature bias that those who are discontent are more loud, and that negative information sticks to the mind more than positive.

Edit to Clarify: I agree with the logic and spirit of your post, that the person you responded to is likely incorrect as we don't see pushback from hardcore guild members about the agreement. You're correct there. I am responding to the idea that basically every BDA member is complaining about this.

[radditsu]

I'll never accept making my language more dumb for the sake of the general population. :P

I'll accept elaborating things in more simple ways, but I'll not give into twitter speak.

I do not think they were long sentences. A long sentence takes up 4-5 lines of a regular sheet of paper.

As for 100k words, is that in every post I have written, or in the post you're responding to? Because I am quite certain that that wasn't in the post you responded to. Further, how certain are you that it is 100k? Did you copy and paste everything I wrote into a word document and do a word add? Just curious how you came to 100k. Lol.



And if Rogean's Plan was successful, this is what would be seen. If BDA decided, as a group, that we wanted to be hardcore, and we wanted to get the vast majority of the mobs on the server (or a shot at them, rather), and we wanted VP, then we would enter the hardcore territory. However, if BDA continued to decide, as a group, that we wanted to remain more casual, earn our epics, have a fun time through cooperation or through friendly competition, we can do that. Those that don't like the decision will find a place that better suits them, and in the end, they would be happier with that choice because they are playing the game the way they want to play it. The problem is, most casuals on this server are being forced to play it the hardcore way, the way they don't want to play it, if they want to see the content they never got to. Hardcores would be equally as upset if they were forced to play casual all day.

Again, that's the beauty of Rogean's System. Each side can be themselves, and they can do it within their own sphere. People can decide "Hmm, do I want to be more hardcore, or casual? Well, my guild is more (hardcore/casual), but I don't really want to deal with that play style, as it isn't fun for me. I'll go join this other guild, or I'll see if my guild wants to switch styles". This way, everyone gets the experience they want. The cost? The hardcores get to compete over only 3 mobs a day. The benefits are endless. Hardcores can compete, casuals can casual, and both can do it without fucking with the other. People can sort themselves into the sphere of play style they want, and they can do it without feeling they are forced to take one to relive their classic experience (unless they really want VP, but that was surrendered in the plan).



Those that are fine, and accepting of the deal in BDA are quiet about it, as many others in other guilds are. It is a human nature bias that those who are discontent are more loud, and that negative information sticks to the mind more than positive.

Edit to Clarify: I agree with the logic and spirit of your post, that the person you responded to is likely incorrect as we don't see pushback from hardcore guild members about the agreement. You're correct there. I am responding to the idea that basically every BDA member is complaining about this.

Fake pixels. Dragon simulator.

[Iliilliill]

Ute your posts are insightful, very well thought out, and articulate. Please continue 100k wording, I enjoy the reads.

[Iliilliill]

forreal doe, reeding is for quears.

[Troubled]

Why are no hardcores complaining about the new deal then? While basically every bda member is.

No, every BDA member really is not complaining. There's only a few that are.

[Hitpoint]

No, every BDA member really is not complaining. There's only a few that are.

That's true, I was a bit flippant. The few that are, are definitely quite a vocal minority.

[SeruScars]

That's true, I was a bit flippant. The few that are, are definitely quite a vocal minority.

But we should definitely accuse all of BDA because that's how it works here.

[Troubled]

That's true, I was a bit flippant. The few that are, are definitely quite a vocal minority.

Sure, agreed. There's also a good portion of the t2 crowd that are just ready to take a crack at these newly available mobs and finish some epics, on the other hand. Myself included.

[Raavak]

Again, that's the beauty of Rogean's System. Each side can be themselves, and they can do it within their own sphere. People can decide "Hmm, do I want to be more hardcore, or casual? Well, my guild is more (hardcore/casual), but I don't really want to deal with that play style, as it isn't fun for me. I'll go join this other guild, or I'll see if my guild wants to switch styles". This way, everyone gets the experience they want. The cost? The hardcores get to compete over only 3 mobs a day. The benefits are endless. Hardcores can compete, casuals can casual, and both can do it without fucking with the other. People can sort themselves into the sphere of play style they want, and they can do it without feeling they are forced to take one to relive their classic experience (unless they really want VP, but that was surrendered in the plan).qft

I posted elsewhere that VP is endgame. Its "reserved" for the "hardcores" during the current expansion. And that is Classic.

[Uteunayr]

That's true, I was a bit flippant. The few that are, are definitely quite a vocal minority.

And vocal minorities, regrettably, are the way humans tend to work. It is sad, and it is a particular challenge to people in my line of work (comparative public opinion), as people tend to focus on the negative, and be loudest about the negative things, when those that are happy and content rarely make as much of a fuss about how happy they are. It's also something good to keep in mind if you ever look at player ratings in metacritic scores.

[Droog007]

Why are no hardcores complaining about the new deal then? While basically every bda member is.

I'll admit I didn't read the entire thread - but several posts in the last few pages seemed to indicate that the hardcores are mad that that BDA will be able to get mobs outside of a head-to-head with them.

Also, plenty of off-the-cuff remarks in other threads from ostensibly hardcore players whining about items being devalued, sarcastic "grats on your pixels", etc...

You're really telling me that everyone but BDA is completely in love with this new arrangement?

I'm sure plenty of people wished for a punitive outcome, rather than all-inclusive... because, hey - we hate your frickin' guts for being dicks all these months and years. But pixels will go a long way to salve that sore.

[Sadad]

Fun fact: FE was formed because of Chest's inability to compromise.

Kinda funny to see it yet again.

Well that's just blatantly false.

[Sadad]

Sure as hell doesn't mean you are entitled to terrorize the rest of the server with fucking ridiculous demands.

What are you even talking about, bro? 7 out of 9 guilds were in lock-step throughout the process. 2 out of 9 dissented from them. Who's terrorizing who in that situation?

you act like you don't want our playstyle or that our playstyle is so wrong, but you def batphoned vox tal draco all at varying hours from early early morning/mid day/late night. so don't act like you have some play style that's so unique and diff than us. FE did what they had to do to get pixels from TMO unlike most.

Difference being that we don't force our members to PM us when they park a toon somewhere.

30 BDA logs in 30 secs after Vox pop, Casual as fuck.

Casuals can't be organized, then. Well, they can, but don't even think about beating the shit out of TMO or they'll belittle what you did while simultaneously accusing you of striving for too much.

[Hitpoint]

Difference being that we don't force our members to PM us when they park a toon somewhere.


We do not, and have never required this. I'm not even sure who we would PM if we wanted to.

[Razdeline]

BDA's attitude is sadly reminding me of TMO in their infancy.

[YendorLootmonkey]

BDA's attitude is sadly reminding me of TMO in their infancy.

What attitude is that, sir? The attitude where we eschew the douchebaggery of the raid scene and seek to work with the Tier 2 guilds to develop a rotation that caters to casual raiding, much to the chagrin of Tier 1 guilds that have a chip on their shoulder about wanting us to play their way and get our hands dirty with them?

[Byrjun]

Not sure why anyone would want a rotation at this point. What we got instead was a way to keep a competitive aspect to the game, while EVERY guild on the server gets more raid mobs. This has been a win-win-win outcome, in the words of the venerable Michael Scott.