With all due respect, Sirken, you're no Solomon.

[goshozal]

A better analogy would be:

Server staff sets up a dogfighting ring. Guilds are the dogs. Only the most vicious and relentless dogs get enough to eat (loot). Dogs fight for three years. After the first year, one top dog emerges that is a freaking machine at killing the other dogs. He ends up getting almost all of the food, and he hoards it, burying stockpiles everywhere and rewarding other dogs who join his pack. Every now and then a good challenger comes along, but for the most part it's a one-dog show.

Then the server staff comes in one day and decides that they're tired of the noisy dogfights, blames the whole debacle on the dogs, and now all the dogs have to figure out how to divide the food, or all of them will starve.

Conveniently ignored is the fact that there isn't enough food for all the dogs to eat their fill.

Or, if you're not an analogy fan:

Roughly a couple dozen high-value targets, spawning approximately a couple times a week. I'm no mathematician, but this translates into about 1250 spawns per year, not factoring in drop-rate rarity.

P99 blue has over 1000 players online at peak periods and between 400-500 players during lower population periods. Given the server's age and the result is a recipe for disaster: A mature server with high demand and low contested spawn rate, and no new content for over two years.

I understand the Dev's frustration, but there has to be some recognition by those who run this environment of this problem. It is a problem that wasn't experienced in classic Everquest because expansions were far more regular than we will ever experience on P99.

In classic Everquest where expansions were released annually or sooner, the more "established" guilds would progress on to harder targets, leaving older content for younger and newer guilds. This helped contribute to a more balanced raiding environment.

Everyone playing on P99 wants to experience "classic", at their own pace, but some of the "slower progressing" players have caught up to the most established players, and we have reached a boiling point. There just isn't enough content to meet current demand, and a solution is going to require a combined effort of negotiation between the player base and the server admins to work something out. Barring players from content is only going to create frustration, and players will leave. This will change the landscape of P99 indefinitely... for better or for worse.

It needs to be said that the majority of P99's player base truly appreciate the efforts put forth by Sirken, Rogean and his team to provide this venue for those of us who quite frankly don't want to play "modern" games. There is obviously a strong market for people who prefer the classic experience that comes from pre-PoP Everquest without the taint of newer expansions, and right now P99 is the only way to experience it. We also understand that Velious content is being worked on feverishly, but until then... how do we meet demand without bloodshed, and without content bans that punish players from doing exactly what this server was created for?

The answer (to me), seems fairly clear: There needs to be enough content to meet demand.

The players can't create more content, and the developers can't make players who have been forced into content-starvation behave more considerately to each other.

There needs to be a compromise that not only involves guilds, but also involves the Dev team of Project 1999 to come up with a strategy that alleviates content starvation. Current demand has reached critical mass, and this is why we are seeing the intensity of shit-flinging that has brought us to this point.

I would like to request that the Devs to at least consider presenting the population with a content-based solution that will help alleviate some of the stress and strain on demand for spawn rarity.

In turn, guilds need to acknowledge that until Velious comes out, we are all challenged for content in a mature server environment. In addition to ideas that have been presented, it is also going to mean some in-guild restructuring that promotes policies for loot distribution that encourages a main-vs-alt mentality, and enforces zero-tolerance attitude towards non-NBG behaviour (which spawns RMT). This is, after all, what started this debacle. TMO's particular raid-style attracted this kind of player, and this is the biggest problem I feel they faced as a guild. It burned them, badly. Hopefully they have learned from it, as many others certainly have from their tragedy.

As hard as it may be, until new content is available we all have to try to acknowledge that other players who don't share our guild-tags are trying to accomplish the same goals that each and every one of us are trying to achieve. While there may be a market for selling raid content, this behaviour is undermining the entire reason that we all started playing here. If the shoe was on the other foot, would you want to experience project 1999 in any way other than the way you have been? If the answer is "no", then it's time to change your behaviour a little bit, as much as it might suck right now.

Other Suggestions (pipe dreams maybe, but since we're throwing out ideas... why not!):

Open up another blue server... from scratch (this could mitigate some of the demand, possibly permanently.)

Remove Variance (this would decrease the spawn timers enough so as not to be harmful to the "economy", and absolutely would alleviate some of the stress)

Poop-socking ends... period. In fact, if devs could brilliantly figure out a way to detect poopsocking and make it impossible to "camp in" within a certain radius of a contested spawn... this would be ideal! Sure it's not classic, but this situation isn't classic either and needs some patch-fixes to solve our unique problems.

Random "Server Repop" events, at least twice monthly. The one that happened over Christmas has got to be the best demonstration of inter-guild cooperation I have experienced on P99... ever. It also attracted veterans who gave up on the raid environment of blue P99 long ago... which speaks volumes about the critical situation we have here. More events like this will likely create a healthier, happier and friendlier environment.

I look forward to future posts on this thread.

***edit disclaimer: My opinions are my own, and not endorsed in any way by my guild. But I logged into Server Chat to see Sirken comparing himself and the staff to King Solomon the Wise. And I just hate bad analogies. Solomon would have never initiated and perpetuated such a mess, and he would at least have taken responsibility for it if he had.
***second edit disclaimer: hoards, not hordes.
***third edit disclaimer: I like edits.

[Rhambuk]

thats the best description yet.

[Man0warr]

If the server admins ignore this, they are idiots.

[citizen1080]

Dead on sir

[fullmetalcoxman]

Oh God, this is excellent. Oh, bravo. Bra-fucking-vo.

[mitic]

the entertainment value of the blue forum is matchless

[Unidus]

Looks like more people are finally seeing the fix to the problem. Now if only the gms could. There has to be an increase in raid targets.

[Tann]

Poop-socking ends...
anyone logged out for more than 10-15min within X yards of a raid target spawn location is sent to bind point, or in case of VP/planes camping anywhere in zone sends you to bind.

[Telin]

Well said. I actually read it all. Other than a new server, the suggestions would avoid a lot of headaches and policing for both devs and players.

[Nirgon]

Timeline isn't classic, too many guilds/max level players now. Learn to share.

[goshozal]

Timeline isn't classic, too many guilds/max level players now. Learn to share.

Ever heard the saying, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks?"

[jaybone]

10/10

[Nirgon]

Is that a new meme with the youngins

[goshozal]

10/10

Oh, stop it, you. You're making me blush.

[Babayaaga]

And some people thought guilds couldn't agree on anything...

So much for that! :)

Cheers Mak!

[Xelris]

Doesn't seem to matter how good the argument is to reduce the competitive factor, even if it is poisoning the server.

[Byrjun]

+1 to this.

I also heard someone say something like, "it's as if Obama told Israel and Palestine that they have 3 days to become best friends, otherwise we'll nuke em both."

[mitic]

+1 to this.

I also heard someone say something like, "it's as if Obama told Israel and Palestine that they have 3 days to become best friends, otherwise we'll nuke em both."

this could cause some problems since israel would nuke back :D

[Lune]

How does a dog continue to fight when it is too fucking corpulent to walk, having eaten enough to fill itself a first, second, third, and fourth time over? And then sell what it absolutely could not shove down its throat for exorbitant prices?

Your metaphor sucks, and here you dumbfucks are in this thread nodding along like a bunch of redneck trailer trash watching Fox News bash poor people.

[JayN]

A better analogy would be:

Server staff sets up a dogfighting ring. Guilds are the dogs. Only the most vicious and relentless dogs get enough to eat (loot). Dogs fight for three years. After the first year, one top dog emerges that is a freaking machine at killing the other dogs. He ends up getting almost all of the food, and he hoards it, burying stockpiles everywhere and rewarding other dogs who join his pack. Every now and then a good challenger comes along, but for the most part it's a one-dog show.

Then the server staff comes in one day and decides that they're tired of the noisy dogfights, blames the whole debacle on the dogs, and now all the dogs have to figure out how to divide the food, or all of them will starve.

Conveniently ignored is the fact that there isn't enough food for all the dogs to eat their fill.

Or, if you're not an analogy fan:



***edit disclaimer: My opinions are my own, and not endorsed in any way by my guild. But I logged into Server Chat to see my fellow players being compared to bickering women trying to divide something that can't be divided. And I just hate bad analogies.
***second edit disclaimer: hoards, not hordes.

Confirmed us dogs need velious!

[Xelris]

they mentioned new server... careful what u wish for... wake up to a new blank char select :) oh the tears would flow

Would also destroy the trust of the playerbase and would make a lot of quality people leave.

[Xelris]

u do know that hacks still work on server and massive RMT plat operations still run?

it was a good first run. accept that it can no longer continue after all the advantages and exploits, accept the great data you have, and start the real project.

its the responsible thing to do and would allow the cheaters to be caught. or are u against taking away unfair advantages cause u have one?

Wiping everything won't stop the hacks. It will temporarily slow down RMT. It would also render every hour I've spent on my characters fleshing them out to be wasted, and I know I wouldn't be the worst hit by that aspect.

I've been thinking on the subject a while as to what a plausible solution might be. Closest thing I've come up with is allowing a naked transfer, with a limited number of "exemption" items. Pick somewhere between 3 and 5 items to take with you. Epic automatically included, and your choice of (we'll say three) other items. Maximum two characters per account transferred, maybe with a level limit of 46 or greater to prevent mule transfers (gotta make it count).

This is all pipe dreaming afaic, as neither scenario will actually happen, and it would still be subject to abuse unless you made the items nodrop only. I would hope that'd be avoidable but I doubt it.

[JayN]

if we restart damnit, they better add Moss covered branch 5/15 2hb this time! Im so pissed it never dropped here....


or they could just release http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=18092&type=sigpic&dateline=1388224171!

[JerSar]

if we restart damnit, they better add Moss covered branch 5/15 2hb this time! Im so pissed it never dropped here....


or they could just release !

I REALLY wish you guys had copied my sig from my server, I would have been a very, very bad person.

[salimoneus]

A wipe now would give us a last shot at a realistic timeline for this server. The whole economy and game mechanics have been altered in such a way that there is no undoing it at this point. Velious will help matters but there are so many existing geared toons out there and so much plat. And to think how many dormant accounts are out there with multiple geared 60's just waiting for Velious? If you think we have a numbers problem now just wait.

Also considering how much the admins have learned about mitigating cheating and RMTing, those activities would have much less of an impact on the second go around.

Wipe now and we may be lucky to have Velious completed in the normal time frame with raid content available when it was in the original. If the aim of this server is to be as close to classic as possible, I would urge the admins to reconsider this option, it's the only true way to restore balance to this environment.

March 1999: Original Release
April 2000: The Ruins of Kunark
December 2000: The Scars of Velious


I'm sure the playbase would be just fine, this is still the best show in town for a classic MMO experience. Some may leave but so what, those are probably the people who won't be missed much anyway - the ones who thrive on domination.

[fastboy21]

http://imageshack.us/a/img838/3962/7vp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/7vp3.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[Butthead]

theres alota things that are great bout rules but alot def need some fine turning.

look way back at server launch, holo was the op guild for awhile. no1 could exp if holo was in zone lol. and even tho they got banned, they knew their stuff.

nihi then begins to mass invite, creating a zerg. which in time won over holo... that and nihi never got caught using that exploit that holo got caught using in sol b.


its part of the game fighting over mobs and setting up our own rules, so to speak.
if we cant deal with nihi or whoever mass killing every1, then instead of crying to gm's, they should b crying out for others in similar situtations and created a guild to work together. Thats what we got guilds for lol. makea mass team and then try fixing the problem.

i Hated it about eq live but looking back , it sorta made the game. gms would only cause change if they absolutely had to. they'd let players work it out , or not. as long as no rules wer broken, the game continued.

nihi clearly won and should get the dank raids, and the gimp players who cant get a raid going themselves, and cant coordinate around nihi then you're not ready for that raid.
it shouldnt be gifted. not every1 gets a turn to 'raid the pony'. by max level, only the truely dedicated remained. but now that the xp is much easier, we're getting ppl who are use to an ez ride...
look at alll the other mmos.



the players need to fix this up, WITH the guidance of the gm's.
dropping a set of rules of such great change, without huge warnings everytime u logged on, almost seems shifty lol.


theres gota b more resolutions to this. banning those who appose will only lower our pop. we need to attract more ppl here, to the PVP server. we had it perfect. blues went to blue, reds went to red. both had different views so we played ondifferent servers. now its like they're coming and infecting red99 with the blue. plz dont make it purple99.

=o

[Xelris]

I've spent on my characters

ur not going to handle real death very well i suspect. my condolences. :()

I'm getting the feeling I'm responding to trolling but I'll bite one last time for the sake of clarification.

I'll be fine. The real currency of an MMO is time. If I consider the most fun aspect of the game to be the high end and having a pixel collection, a wipe kind of adversely affects my enjoyment of the game, wouldn't you say? It would most definitely force me to look elsewhere for entertainment, and again, I doubt I'm alone in that regard.

Unless we're re-creating the classic test server and the subsequent wipe (which, by the way, was met with great wailing and gnashing of teeth), the most benevolent solution to those problems is either the creation of a new server or some sort of limited transfer.

[goshozal]

http://imageshack.us/a/img838/3962/7vp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/7vp3.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

More like TMO:

http://allamericanpits.com/files/cms/uploads/images/rain.jpg

and BDA:

http://www.zastavki.com/pictures/originals/2013/Animals___Dogs_Beautiful_beagle_puppy_jumping_0499 39_.jpg

While we're at it, A-Team:

http://www.fullpunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Cutest-Puppies-Altogether-To-Make-You-Say-Aww-20.jpg

This thread is now about puppies (and bad comparisons).

[Treats]

What's the difference in starting a new server/wiping before or after Velious.

Think about it.

VELIOUS WILL HAVE BUGS

Will you be crying for another wipe because of this? Probably.

So the server should be wiped twice INSTEAD of having a brand new server when Velious is complete with the majority of bugs fixed.

Stupid.

[salimoneus]

What's the difference in starting a new server/wiping before or after Velious.

Think about it.

VELIOUS WILL HAVE BUGS

Will you be crying for another wipe because of this? Probably.

So the server should be wiped twice INSTEAD of having a brand new server when Velious is complete with the majority of bugs fixed.

Stupid.

Sorry this doesn't hold water. Was the server wiped when Kunark was released due to bugs? Not hardly. That's what betas and test servers are for, to work out the majority of issues. Sure some issues may slip through, just like they did with Kunark, but the server will make it through fine just as it did then.

[citizen1080]

While we're at it, A-Team:

http://www.fullpunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Cutest-Puppies-Altogether-To-Make-You-Say-Aww-20.jpg

This thread is now about puppies (and bad comparisons).

That picture of A-Team was taken after reading Raiding threads all week. We don't sock so we aren't used to all these hours in front of the computer!

[Rhambuk]

this could cause some problems since israel would nuke back :D

I think someone would honestly.

Remember how dedicated the ddoser was, sure he was against the server but there are people that extreme out there.

Keep your doors locked Rog!

[Morgander]

your brain is dumb but it still got it right...yes, they should wipe after velious out two years as well. will keep server fresh. moran.

http://i.imgur.com/aigBS4A.jpg?2

Alright, I can't stand it anymore.

Look Langrisserx... Stop. Just stop.

Half of your posts...well, I can't even understand what in the hell you're trying to say. You can't punctuate, you can't spell.

Dude, the epitome of the finalization of relentless ignorance often precludes with spelling the word MORON, with "moran".

Seriously, just stop. For your own damned good, stop. You're massively hurting my brain. Really.

[goshozal]

Look at the puppies, Morgander. Trolls gonna troll.

[Auvdar]

Adding a second blue server could bring back a lot of retired players who were just fed up with the end game scene. And it would help with the "bloat" at the end game, since there would be less people on each server.

Seems like this server is continually getting around 1k population at prime time, add in the amount of people that would come back if a new server opened, I could easily see both servers running 700 people or so at prime time.

I dunno, I've always liked the idea of a second server. It could have some very bad problems too.

[Rhambuk]

Adding a second blue server could bring back a lot of retired players who were just fed up with the end game scene. And it would help with the "bloat" at the end game, since there would be less people on each server.

Seems like this server is continually getting around 1k population at prime time, add in the amount of people that would come back if a new server opened, I could easily see both servers running 700 people or so at prime time.

I dunno, I've always liked the idea of a second server. It could have some very bad problems too.

That's a lot of extra stress on our csr.

HI AUV!!

[Auvdar]

That's a lot of extra stress on our csr.

HI AUV!!

Hey bro!

Lot of stress sure, but imagine if the raid scene lightened up and they didn't have to deal with the mess as much.

Get a few server guides for the new server, I'm sure there are tons of people willing.

Only part I would be scared of is one server turning into a ghost town.

[Zade]

I respect OPs opinion. I see where you are coming from, but I got another analogy for you in return:

The US National Debt is over 17 trillion dollars. The government could easily throw those printing presses in overdrive, printing enough money to pay their own debt off. But, they don't, because it would thoroughly and completely DESTROY the economy and the value of the dollar, much more worse off than it already is.

Flooding the server with mobs won't make your problems go away. The mobs are the mobs, and there won't be more mobs till the next xpac. The server needs to figure a way to work it out without having trak pop every 29 minutes.

[goshozal]

I respect OPs opinion. I see where you are coming from, but I got another analogy for you in return:

The US National Debt is over 17 trillion dollars. The government could easily throw those printing presses in overdrive, printing enough money to pay their own debt off. But, they don't, because it would thoroughly and completely DESTROY the economy and the value of the dollar, much more worse off than it already is.

Flooding the server with mobs won't make your problems go away. The mobs are the mobs, and there won't be more mobs till the next xpac. The server needs to figure a way to work it out without having trak pop every 29 minutes.

And yet the government regularly does manipulate the economy, to alleviate the effects of inflation and deflation and keep the populace from eating one another. Furthermore, the government acknowledges that this role is their responsibility. A government that shuts down the economy to punish the populace would experience riots in the streets.

I am not proposing that the server staff cause repops every 30 minutes, but it is undeniable that more to go around would make negotiations between the guilds far easier on all parties involved.

[Zade]

you missed the point and are nitpicking about government policies :P

[Lune]

TMO member blaming the terrible raid scene on staff, lol

[Rhambuk]

Hey bro!

Lot of stress sure, but imagine if the raid scene lightened up and they didn't have to deal with the mess as much.

Get a few server guides for the new server, I'm sure there are tons of people willing.

Only part I would be scared of is one server turning into a ghost town.

I agree it would be incredible and healthy but its just not something they want to deal with.

you're sig makes me nostalgic haha

[Autotune]

You guys are ridiculous.

There was no problem. You wanted classic, you got classic kunark. You wanted classic raiding, you got that too. You got it for a classic amount of time and now you're getting it for more than a classic amount of time (not-classic). Guess what, now you're getting not-classic raiding rules to go with your not-classic timeline.

Fucking deal with it until Velious.

[goshozal]

you missed the point and are nitpicking about government policies :P

I addressed your point. I'm not suggesting flooding the raid scene. I'm saying that staff participation in a solution that increases the number of targets in a crowded, dog-eat-dog raid environment would help achieve the end result that everyone seems to want.

And I just couldn't help myself with the dog-eat-dog part.

TMO member blaming the terrible raid scene on staff, lol

Don't hate the players, hate the game.

[Messianic]

And yet the government regularly does manipulate the economy, to cause inflation, slowly depleting the incomes and value held by people not in finance and keep bankers and investors rich or waste a bunch of money on stupid ideas just for the sake of spending money.

FTFY

[odiecat99]

one of the few tmo members I like right thurr ^

[goshozal]

FTFY

What we're really facing here is another bad analogy.

[Butthead]

shoulda stayed classic, we had the right idea and now its bending to ppl crying.

i strongly feel any change was a mistake. even the extra exp. (not the holiday, exp thats cool, i remember alota games doing that)

mayb its my fault for not checkin the site n posting more. who voted to change it from classic to randomcustom emu server ><

[goshozal]

yea, a wipe would do that. increase the number of targets.

not the amount of people who can kill them, but still. thats not what you asked.

evil genie, out.

i think at this point you can safely hate the players. nice try though tmo

Here, honey, have a puppy:

http://cdn.cutestpaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/cute-puppy-l1.jpg

[goshozal]

how much money u make off the game

Enough to buy you another huggable baby mammal. I named this one Langrisserx:

http://cdn.petkaria.com/pictures/www.wallsave.com/wallpapers/1024x768/puppies/79891/puppies-cute-puppy-big-videos-79891.jpg

He's so mad! Adorable.

[odiecat99]

we still on that?

[odiecat99]

it's tiresome that's all. and trust me I dislike TMO. See my previous posts and subsequent bans from TMO Guild Recruitment.

It's over and done with.

[odiecat99]

I give zero fucks at this point. mofos cant share the sandbox. that's when I move on.
lots of sunlight

[goshozal]

admits to RMT in game. Joke or not, ban per policy. Thanks TMO

http://i.imgur.com/OyeW81Q.jpg?1

ur guild cheated to win and ruined server =\ either u knew or didnt cause dumb, but you all benefited.

BURN IT DOWN

I don't know if you realize it, but google image search puppies are free.

Also none of my chars were involved in cheating or have ever taken any bans or suspensions or any disciplinary action. You have nothing but your rage.

And this puppy:

http://media.heavy.com/media/2013/03/fail-copy.jpg

[odiecat99]

Meanwhile... at TMO headquarters..

http://windowsitpro.com/content/content/136189/bkw-angrybirds.jpg

[odiecat99]

and also this.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tFtnvEP0yg4/T5xyNH5MvYI/AAAAAAAAAKg/dO9V3wiNGl4/s1600/angry+dog.jpg

have a wonderful night.

[odiecat99]

and this. sorry. I am now done.

http://cl.jroo.me/z3/V/k/A/d/a.aaa-angry-dog-3.jpg

[goshozal]

Thanks, dawg.

[odiecat99]

Thanks, dawg.

http://www.pictures.desijunks.com/funny1/funnydog47.jpg

[goshozal]

Giant Embedded Scrolling Sig Says, R E L A X

[Redstars]

I'd like to see server restart. but it wont happen im sure.

[Wudan]

2 years of broken raid scene rules, epicMQs, account selling+army of alts, account sharing, etc., all not being dealt with by GMs along with some shitty players abusing the lack of well thought out rules brought us the problems we are dealing with today.... and we get 2 weeks to fix it. Something does not add up. Not really fair if you ask me. Its like GMs dont accept any kind of responsibility and its all players fault.

Most did not dupe plat, did not buy army of 80 alts to share with guildies, did not farm raid mobs they dont need to sell their drops for epic MQs, yet they cant raid now, because they have been given 2 weeks - DURING CHRISTMAS HOLIDAYS - to fix something that has been building up for 2 years.

Its like neglecting your car for 2 years and then being angry at the service man, because he cant repair all the shit in 2 days.

nahmeen?

[Arteker]

2 years of broken raid scene rules, epicMQs, account selling+army of alts, account sharing, etc., all not being dealt with by GMs along with some shitty players abusing the lack of well thought out rules brought us the problems we are dealing with today.... and we get 2 weeks to fix it. Something does not add up. Not really fair if you ask me. Its like GMs dont accept any kind of responsibility and its all players fault.

Most did not dupe plat, did not buy army of 80 alts to share with guildies, did not farm raid mobs they dont need to sell their drops for epic MQs, yet they cant raid now, because they have been given 2 weeks - DURING CHRISTMAS HOLIDAYS - to fix something that has been building up for 2 years.

Its like neglecting your car for 2 years and then being angry at the service man, because he cant repair all the shit in 2 days.

nahmeen?
thats why is better having 2 cars or 3 if u have a wife like mine wich have a skill on drive art that would make Nigel mansell moustache fear in terror to be at her side inside a car.

[Wudan]

thats why is better having 2 cars or 3 if u have a wife like mine wich have a skill on drive art that would make Nigel mansell moustache fear in terror to be at her side inside a car.

Haha good one mate. I do have 2nd "car", its TF2 :) and guess what, its free to play too and no one gets punished for devs/gms mistakes. Dustbowl ftw

[Arteker]

Haha good one mate. I do have 2nd "car", its TF2 :) and guess what, its free to play too and no one gets punished for devs/gms mistakes. Dustbowl ftw

thats why original DOD > tft ,p

[Wudan]

thats why original DOD > tft ,p

Aw man you got some good taste :) i loved dod inits days, still have it installed actually lol

But TF2 is a lot of fun too, just differwnt

[Arteker]

Aw man you got some good taste :) i loved dod inits days, still have it installed actually lol

But TF2 is a lot of fun too, just differwnt

i always though day D dod map was one of the best ever , either u start in the water with mg 42 and kars shootin at you and u try to run to beach or defendin the bunkers.
then players complained about weapon settins being to op for germans (kar 98 nerf) and game went downhill.

[Wudan]

i always though day D dod map was one of the best ever , either u start in the water with mg 42 and kars shootin at you and u try to run to beach or defendin the bunkers.
then players complained about weapon settins being to op for germans (kar 98 nerf) and game went downhill.

that was my favourite map! and Caen too, greta maps, great game. Played source too for a bit, but it was not as good as the original

[Thulack]

See i would blame the dog fighters for not having a well rounded pack and relying on 1 dog for everything.

[radditsu]

You guys are high.
I have evidence:

http://i.imgur.com/qCpxNfs.jpg

[Clark]

Conveniently ignored is the fact that there isn't enough food for all the dogs to eat their fill.

Solomon would have never initiated and perpetuated such a mess, and he would at least have taken responsibility for it if he had.

Feel the same way sometimes I have a lot of folks tell me I should have been a GM because of the effort and care I give to everything I do. Would be incredibly easy to GM this server and invis stalk boss spawns + take extra time for things needing attention at certain periods of the server. I'm sort of thrown for a loop sometimes why the staff struggles so much operating and maintaining this server.

[arsenalpow]

This isn't about creating more "food" for everyone, it's about side each coming together on a plan. The issue is the hardcores believe they are entitled to more loot so they refused to budge.

[Rhambuk]

You guys are high.
I have evidence:

http://i.imgur.com/qCpxNfs.jpg

lol at least im the smarter of the two.

[Andervin]

A better analogy would be:

Server staff sets up a dogfighting ring. Guilds are the dogs. Only the most vicious and relentless dogs get enough to eat (loot). Dogs fight for three years. After the first year, one top dog emerges that is a freaking machine at killing the other dogs. He ends up getting almost all of the food, and he hoards it, burying stockpiles everywhere and rewarding other dogs who join his pack. Every now and then a good challenger comes along, but for the most part it's a one-dog show.

Then the server staff comes in one day and decides that they're tired of the noisy dogfights, blames the whole debacle on the dogs, and now all the dogs have to figure out how to divide the food, or all of them will starve.

Conveniently ignored is the fact that there isn't enough food for all the dogs to eat their fill.



Well said. It took me about 2 months of playing here to realize this place isn't worth investing the time. Some day they will have a temper tantrum and pull the plug. No thanks. Have fun, I'm out.

[myriverse]

Someone please shoot me the day I start thinking of mobs/loot as food.

[whitebandit]

This isn't about creating more "food" for everyone, it's about side each coming together on a plan. The issue is the hardcores believe they are entitled to more loot so they refused to budge.

Could not it be said that the "The issue is the casuals believe they are entitled to more loot so they refused to budge." ?????

[arsenalpow]

Could not it be said that the "The issue is the casuals believe they are entitled to more loot so they refused to budge." ?????

well considering the hardcores argument is that we refused to "compete" in first place is flawed, no, i wouldn't say the casuals are refusing to budge.

Had we come to the bargaining table with a full server rotation 100% of the time proposal and then dropped it down to 70% of the time, and then refused to acknowledge any other proposals then I could agree with your position. We came to the table with a less than 50% split and it would wholly rejected. The Rogean proposal came up with a 50/50 split (minus VP) and it is easily the most fair plan.

[goshozal]

The issue is the hardcores believe they are entitled to more loot

My guild is willing to race for Trakanon every time he pops, whenever he pops.

Your guild is not. You state that we believe we're entitled to more loot. You're the one asking for us to back off and leave the loot for you at your convenience.

I cannot :rolleyes: enough.

[Lune]

My guild is willing to race for Trakanon every time he pops, whenever he pops.

Your guild is not. You state that we believe we're entitled to more loot. You're the one asking for us to back off and leave the loot for you at your convenience.

I cannot :rolleyes: enough.

You are just that guy. (http://youtu.be/tcE0T8yNMOI?t=2m50s). Don't be that guy, man.

[Melissa]

wtb revamped planes...

[radditsu]

Wtb sex for pennies.

[goshozal]

Wtb sex for pennies.

Send pics pls

[radditsu]

Send pics pls

http://media.moddb.com/images/downloads/1/15/14233/Carl-ATHF.jpg

[goshozal]

Hmm. Your avatar pic is misleading. If you were more like the guy with the stache in the helmet, we could talk.

I really do look just like Benny Hill, btw.

[Aaron]

Every proposal presented so far seems to be favorable to casual guilds.

It seems like BDA specifically wants more than the others.

[Uteunayr]

Every proposal presented so far seems to be favorable to casual guilds.

It seems like BDA specifically wants more than the others.

Uh what?

BDA has primarily been arguing on the raid forums on two fronts:

1) That whatever plan is concocted, that casual guilds (non-TMO/IB/FE) should have a fair allocation of epic mobs, so that way someone doesn't have to go into a type of hardcore raiding they dislike to live out their nostalgic dreams of earning an epic.

2) The staff's plan should be the focus, and negotiating should be concise based on fixing the issues with that plan, rather than proposing new proposals to counter proposals from other counter-proposals to original proposals.

Further, it was elaborated numerous times that BDA has little issue discussing and coming to arrangements with the other casual guilds on rotations, or other policies of friendly raiding to make the raiding scene more enjoyable and accessible for those in the Tier 2 position.

The idea behind the Staff Plan is to separate the guilds into Tiers, Tier 1 and Tier 2, in which all mobs (other than VP), as they die, swap to the other tier. So if a Tier 1 guild kills CT, then the next time CT spawns, Tier 2 gets to kill it. if Tier 2 takes too long to kill it, then it becomes FFA for Tier 1 to claim. As it is written on the main proposal, once CT goes back to Tier 1, a separate guild needs to claim it.

A reasonable issue with this was brought up by FE, in that if FE+IB kills CT, and then a Tier 2 guild kills CT, it comes back, it now must be TMO, which creates a rotation. I am certain absolutely no one on the Tier 2 side would have any issue allowing Tier 1 guilds to make all kills on the Tier 1 side FFA, and by whatever rules they want.

The point is that Tier 1 players (hardcores) should be allowed to play in a hardcore way with their share of the mobs, plus all of VP (with VP, and the chance at far more kills being the main motivation to become a hardcore raider), while Tier 2 raiders (casuals) should be able to commit to friendly raiding on their half of all VP-mobs.

The vast majority of the kills (I believe it was 4-6x more, equaling out to around 2 mobs per day all month for the hardcores to fight for, and 1 kill a week for each guild in the casual) is with the competitive side. But the casual side is assured to be able to make up their own system of rotation, or play nice policies that include epic mobs so that a casual player can earn their epic without joining a type of raiding they feel is toxic, or without paying the top guild that has those mobs on lock down.

Sorry, I don't see that as greedy, I really don't. Hardcores get to exist within a hardcore sphere of players, and casuals get to exist within a casual sphere of players. If a guild wants to work their way up and get a lot more kills, they can join TMO/IB/FE, and any other guild that wants the higher amount of kills (4-6x), and play on hardcore raiding terms. In other words, let the hardcores hardcore, and let the casuals casual.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I'd just say that if the intent is to relive the classic experience, you must define it. For some classic was hardcore raiding, others casual raiding in a rotation. Others still an open raid environment. So if this is to be a 'classic experience' server, must you not cater to all of those, and not one over the others? I don't think increasing content is classic, however we did have more spawns as a result of patching, and the fact guilds were forced to progress (which the OP covered).

And while Velious, and a new server seem like great ideas it is a temporary fix. It wouldn't prevent the same people from creating the same problem, or another guild to go to that second server and create the same problem there.

And someone mentioned it earlier, how this game's currency has always. It always has been those willing to devote more time that reap the rewards, and they (who define that as 'hardcore') should absolutely reap the rewards as we/they did in classic eq. But we don't have multiple servers to choose from (blue), and we don't have progression room. Not a fault of anyone, but it is the reality. What was truly classic about time invested and how it related to the top guilds was that those willing to invest more time got more loots. Due to said lack of progression that has been twisted and tainted, it isn't about time spent improving and progressing, it has become something else entirely here. The time isn't spent towards progressing and remaining 'top dawgs' it has become time spent stagnating, and stagnation has poisoned the server in a fashion.

I was asked by someone if we wanted handouts. No, we don't want handouts, but we do want a fair shot at experiencing classic everquest. As the OP said, you can't compare this server to classic because of the limited resources and space for players available. Twitter and social media, instant messaging changes the way we do things. Having over a decade of prior of knowledge and experience changes things.You all can scream about casuals wanting free loots, and unable to 'compete, but the meaning of the word 'competition' or 'race' here is totally different. You aren't forced to pay for your accounts so right there you can stop with 'in classic'. A lot of us aren't on dialup so that ends that too. Using Roger Wilco or Twitter? Mass texts or emails?

Do sport change as players and society adapt and evolve? You can't play pro football the same way you played it in 1920, and you can't think the same dynamic exists inside a game released in 1999. You just can't approach it in a naive fashion thinking it will be the same, there are different external forces at work. I truly wonder if all of the people shouting 'classic' actually played from release through velious, or joined late and think they understand how it all was back then.

If you want another analogy, mine is a literal sandbox. You would play in there with your siblings or friends as a young child, and inevitably one would want to play with a toy the other had; be it a bucket, Tonka truck, a shovel, etc. The responsible parent or person watching us inevitably would step in once the crying or fighting started, and sooner or later it came down to sharing, usually forced sharing by the more mature individual.

We as people in society have to accede or compromise and adhere to certain rules regarding behavior in order to function as a society. Yet within our own small community some of you adamantly refuse to cooperate, or share, or concede anything so that we in our own little world can work as anything except what I can only call dysfunctional.

[mattkwi]

The GMs owe nothing to anyone. They own and operate and you play voluntarily. If you don't like it, don't play. No small guilds ever went to Verant or Sony and demanded more raid targets because they could not get them on their own.

If the GMs want smaller guilds to have clean shots at raid targets then they should just implement a ruling themselves. Asking the players to work it out and then attempting to control the outcome by forcing a compromise is just pissing people off. If you want in on the targets there are means. You can do this through alliance (more resources), force, or politics. It is no ones responsibility to hand it out. Infact it wasn't that smaller guilds didn't get content that got the server here, it was The guilds at the top taking it to far. That should be the problem being addressed. Guilds who can and do kill and control the content owe nothing to anyone. Just like the GMs don't either. And if they want a compromise they should en force it themselves.

Everyone is right. It's all about play style and personal differences. It's a MMO. You work it out yourself unless someone is breaking specified rules. Everquest was that way and this server should be that way. If you want it, find a way. Form an alliance so you have more resources to track and park. Use your own force on targets you want one at a time. Create an agreement with a larger guild. If your not interested, so be it. Don't demand mechanics change and that everyone needs to share just because you play here too. They don't.

IMO just address the bad behavior of the guilds killing the targets ( staggered engages or some sort of play nice policy). If you want the big guilds to give up targets then let them decide how to do that. If you want to ensure it happens then instead of Sirkens idea being a proposal, make it policy.

[Uteunayr]

I'd just say that if the intent is to relive the classic experience, you must define it. For some classic was hardcore raiding, others casual raiding in a rotation. Others still an open raid environment. So if this is to be a 'classic experience' server, must you not cater to all of those, and not one over the others? I don't think increasing content is classic, however we did have more spawns as a result of patching, and the fact guilds were forced to progress.

That's the beauty I find behind the staff plan. Hardcores can define their classic experience as hardcore raiding, amongst themselves. Casuals can define their classic experience of rotations and friendly raiding, amongst themselves. So long as the two tiers of players, the two types of players, can agree to let mobs go back and forth between them, awesome.

Casuals give up ever bringing a casual atmosphere to VP, even if they got the keys, and if they ever want to, they need to play on the hardcore terms. In exchange, casuals get to work in a rotation, or some form of friendly competitive raiding, that includes epic mobs, so people can earn their epics without buying them.

Let each experience what each wants, and it can be done in such a way that the experience of one isn't degrading to the other. No, it wont be a full classic experience, this server isn't a true classic experience, but it will give everyone a chance to sort themselves into one of the styles, and enjoy their classic experience.

Surely, the ideal would be to have a hardcore blue, and casual blue server, but that's asking a bit too much I think. Instead, this is the second best thing.

[Uteunayr]

The GMs owe nothing to anyone. They own and operate and you play voluntarily. If you don't like it, don't play. No small guilds ever went to Verant or Sony and demanded more raid targets because they could not get them on their own.

If the GMs want smaller guilds to have clean shots at raid targets then they should just implement a ruling themselves. Asking the players to work it out and then attempting to control the outcome by forcing a compromise is just pissing people off. If you want in on the targets there are means. You can do this through alliance (more resources), force, or politics. It is no ones responsibility to hand it out. Infact it wasn't that smaller guilds didn't get content that got the server here, it was The guilds at the top taking it to far. That should be the problem being addressed. Guilds who can and do kill and control the content owe nothing to anyone. Just like the GMs don't either. And if they want a compromise they should en force it themselves.

Everyone is right. It's all about play style and personal differences. It's a MMO. You work it out yourself unless someone is breaking specified rules. Everquest was that way and this server should be that way. If you want it, find a way. Form an alliance so you have more resources to track and park. Use your own force on targets you want one at a time. Create an agreement with a larger guild. If your not interested, so be it. Don't demand mechanics change and that everyone needs to share just because you play here too. They don't.

IMO just address the bad behavior of the guilds killing the targets ( staggered engages or some sort of play nice policy). If you want the big guilds to give up targets then let them decide how to do that. If you want to ensure it happens then instead of Sirkens idea being a proposal, make it policy.

No, they don't owe anything to anybody, but they want a meaningful improvement to the quality of the raiding scene on the server, and that can be achieved. The answer isn't to exclude people who want their classic experience, it is to try and create a way in which each can experience their classic experience, without gimping or interfering with the other.

The vast majority of issues come from two different type of raider trying to engage in playing a game the way they remember their classic experience. If you want to reduce the number of conflicts, you must keep ideologically polarized groups apart, and show them that there is a way to coexist, and experience what they want without degrading the other. This is a scientific truth that is pretty readily accepted in international relations, and if you wish to have that backed up, go read Mark Haas' (2007) book, Ideological Origins of Great Power Politics. It is very applicable here.

Any plan that keeps casuals being hardcore, and keeps hardcores dealing with casuals, it is going to lead to conflict, conflict that can be reduced. Casuals are not looking for hand outs, casuals want to earn their keep, but they don't want to do it by delving into the depths of hardcore raiding, an atmosphere that many of us have seen before, and despise. I work hard in my guild, I work hard with other guilds, I work hard with other necromancers of any guild, and one day, I hope to be able to do enough that when my guild gets a crack at CT, I am able to rip a Slime Blood off of him and know I earned it. I don't want to buy it from TMO or another top end guild because they have it on lock down. I don't want to join a raiding style that makes me feel like a horrible person because of what it encourages. I want to have fun, and I want to earn my epic, a goal I never achieved in live back in the day.

These are two sets of people who find enjoyment from totally different things, and mutually enjoyment is not going to happen. If you can create a system in which each can enjoy their type of environment without degrading the environment of the other, awesome. And that's what the Staff Plan allows for.

The big issue with the rotation side coming naturally, the more casual approach to raiding, is that there are none of the mechanisms necessary to make it come about naturally, given that the server is so heavily influxed toward the top end, more so than it would have been on live. You don't have states of relative equal power, who create lasting conflicts that are so degrading that it encourages the growth of cooperation (See Keohane & Nye, 1977, Power & Interdependence). This creates a situation in which there's no way to counter-balance a higher guild enough to encourage a rotation, there's no way to blacklist their people from ports, sales, etc. due to the high top-end population. You can't do these things to create a rotation, and a casual system, so it can't come about through natural player means as it would, for the same reasons that this server isn't 100% classic. And that's fine. But lets make an environment where each side can flourish. Why not? If it is for competition, hardcores should be behind this. If it is for schadenfreude, and their enjoyment comes from the failures of others, then it is incompatible with a harmonious, less conflict prone server.

[arsenalpow]

My guild is willing to camp out 100 alts, leapfrog, FTE snipe, oops train for Trakanon every time he pops, whenever he pops.

Your guild is not. You state that we believe we're entitled to more loot. You're the one asking for us to back off and leave the loot for you at your convenience.

I cannot :rolleyes: enough.

Fixed it

[Nivar Quartz]

I respect OPs opinion. I see where you are coming from,. The server needs trak pop every 29 minutes.


The real question is..

http://i.imgur.com/KfDmr4J.jpg

[skipdog]

Dead on sir

[goshozal]

Fixed it

Sure. We're willing to camp out alts and FTE snipe, because those are within the rules the gm's set forth. We do not intentionally train, except what we used to do in VP. Which, again was also within the rules.

When we found out that players were duping we never questioned their accounts being banned, and though we groused about the accounts we shared being suspended we took it and dealt with the GM's on a per-account basis because TMO, by and large, plays within the rules set forth and is willing to work with the staff. We happen to be the best at pushing those rules to their absolute limit, but that's how you get the top dog spot in this dogfight.

Chest, you're being a baby. If I were in your guild I'd be railing at you to get out of the negotations or shut your mouth, because frankly you're embarrassing BDA. And you can cry and call me a cheater or a bully all you want, but the fact is you're holding up the negotiations by being a greedy little whiner with an enormous chip on his shoulder, and everybody sees it.

You wanna call me greedy? Fine. I'm greedy. But I've got news for you: we're all greedy. You wanna call me a competitive jerk? Fine. I freely admit that I enjoy being in the top guild and pushing as hard as possible to down the most raid mobs.

But entitled? Get fucking real.

[Valoril]

These are two sets of people who find enjoyment from totally different things, and mutually enjoyment is not going to happen. If you can create a system in which each can enjoy their type of environment without degrading the environment of the other, awesome. And that's what the Staff Plan allows for.

That. And I am ready to bet that the crushing majority of P99 players and staff want exactly that. Unfortunately there is still this toxic (yet loud) minority with the habits from the past trying to prevent this from happening.

[Seltius]

I was thinking more along the lines of Austin Powers comparisons after Derubael posting about preparation H.. Err I mean C

[Uteunayr]

That. And I am ready to bet that the crushing majority of P99 players and staff want exactly that. Unfortunately there is still this toxic (yet loud) minority with the habits from the past trying to prevent this from happening.

Yeah. The issue I have with the Proposal A plan, and things like that, is that casuals can only casual for the first bit of the month, rather than having kills diffused throughout the month. So, if someone in a casual guild has shitty starts to the month, something with their job, whatever... That person will miss out on all of this. Basically, casuals only get to be casuals for the first bit of the month, and then *everything* becomes FFA, which isn't the style desired.

I am really hopeful that the people in the negotiations today realize this, and realize that the biggest reason for conflict comes from, how Ambrotos put it:

"I just don't see how any guild, GM or guide can dictate any guild to adapt to a play style they don't want to. Focus on that, figure how the two different sides can adapt it to this problem. Limiting NPCs to one tier or another and forced into the other side's play style is the second biggest issue." -Raid Discussion, Proposals and Details, Page 2.

Rogean's plan permitted that, and the modified Rogean/Staff plan permits for it too. The goal should alwyas be that no guilds can exclusively control epic content, or anything like that. And further, that guilds should be free to participate in a type of raiding that is productive to their classic experience, which is not, by definition, a competitive one. Let the casuals casual all month long, doing whatever rotation they do for their mob, and let the hardcores hardcore it up.

The addition to the modified staff proposal, of making the epic mobs be a 1/3 rotation (Tier 1 -> Tier 2 -> FFA) helps secure Tier 1 even more kills on the epic mobs, while ensuring for two things. First, it ensures that we wont have another situation in which one guild holds that content exclusively. Depending on how Tier 2 dishes out their epic mobs, a lot more people will have a chance to earn them, rather than buy them. Secondly, it means that if a casual guild wants to compete, they can step up and do so. This is a compromise, this is casuals giving up what is permissible to them by fairness (See Rawls), to share amongst 11 other guilds 1/3rd of the pops... But it is one that may be acceptable if Tier 1 permits enough time and safety for the Tier 2 guild that is trying to break into it. First time on CT? Go for it, try it, wipe, come back in, rez yourself, try again, etc. (pending how Tier 2 decides, assuming a rotation), and if they can't do it down, bumping it to another tier 2 guild on the list after giving legitimate tries without trying to force them to rush.

So if CT is a 7 day, you get 4 a month. Of the first 3, one is assured casual. Lets say we have 11 guilds in the casual side, and casuals decide to create a fair rotation. For every casual guild to see CT once, it would take 11 rotations of 3 weeks (assuming no variance inflation) for each guild in the casual side to see it. So that'd be 33 week for each guild in the casual side to see it under careful planning terms. Or, once in 8.25 months.

These guilds will still see CT through FFA rules on the following weeks, if they wish, and I am certain Tier 2 guilds will be more than willing to team up with each other so everyone can see the fight, but loot is assured to be earned by a casual guild (assuming it is downed) to each of the 11 guilds once every 8.25 months, should they be able to kill CT. Additionally, they will kill Inny/Trak/VS, also, once every 8.25 months. So they get 1 epic mob every 2 months, while they get the non-epic mobs most often.

Seems to me that in this way, MQs are still going to be useful in a more cooperative Tier 2 raiding system. You get a Slime Blood, we get a Cazic Skin. Our guild would rather award a Slime Blood (laughable proposition, but for argument's sake, damnit! lol), and we will MQ for you a Cazic Skin. This way the tier 2, with each guild (assuming 11) gets a kill with loot every 8 months and 1 week of the game, if that loot whiffs for them, they can trade it for something more valuable to them, if the opposing guilds have something they see as less valuable than that guild's drops. It may not happen, but it is possible, and it's another way to have some strong bonds formed between the casual guilds.

I don't see these numbers as fair by any means on the best definitions of fairness utilized in modern political science and studies in international relations, and I believe that it is pure greed and schadenfreude that makes this unacceptable to the higher up guilds, but it seems to be all they wish to offer is to be casual for the first bit of the month, and then you have to be hardcore to do anything for the majority of the month. That doesn't get at letting each playstyle be itself. That misses the core of Ambrotos' post, and the wisdom shared there. There is more than a bit of scientific backing for Ambrotos' argument, whether he knows it or not. It is irrelevant, because what he proposes is exactly the thing that is most prone to cause conflict between rivals for limited resources.

[Fael]

Why can't casuals be happy with 25% of raid targets? You will get to kill more raid mobs in one or two months than you've been able to get in three years.


Dolic

[arsenalpow]

Why can't casuals be happy with 25% of raid targets? You will get to kill more raid mobs in one or two months than you've been able to get in three years.


Dolic

Why can't hardcores be happy with 50% of raid targets? You will get to kill just as many raid mobs as you've been able to kill in the past three years.


Chest

[whitebandit]

Why can't casuals be happy with 25% of raid targets? You will get to kill more raid mobs in one or two months than you've been able to get in three years.


Dolic

its been said 100 times before...

5-10% players, 75% loot
90-95% players, 25% loot


the numbers are seriously skewed...

I also believe this is beyond being about Playtime, I think there are a TON of people outside "hardcore guilds" that have higher playtime than that of some of the members of said guild..

[Seltius]

Why can't hardcores be happy with 50% of raid targets? You will get to kill just as many raid mobs as you've been able to kill in the past three years.


Chest

Its not classic!

[Babayaaga]

...We do not intentionally train, except what we used to do in VP. Which, again was also within the rules.

...accounts being banned, and though we groused about the accounts we shared being suspended we took it and dealt with the GM's on a per-account basis because TMO, by and large, plays within the rules...

...We happen to be the best at pushing those rules to their absolute limit...

The areas I have underlined expose the reasoning why some people are being extremely cautious in these negotiations. What may appear to be a "chip" is nothing more than this... caution. Chest is one of many players who have experienced first hand what can happen when rules have been exposed to the ingenuity of the human brain when driven by a common goal in an environment where resources are too few to meet demand.

While we may be negotiating a more fair way to "share" these resources, the reality is that the common problem will still remain... there just isn't enough content to meet demand. If historical evidence tells us anything, and as you have clarified in your post, it can be expected that people will look for ways to bend these new rulesets to their favour using exposed grey areas all over again.

By your own post, you have exposed how this happens, the "why" is where guild philosophies disagree. What some consider acceptable behaviour, others do not.

Through these negotiations, it is the responsibility of everyone to ensure that grey areas are identified and clarified before anything is set in stone.

[Uteunayr]

Its not classic!

Sure it is. Classic means different things to different people from different servers. Classic means PvP to some, classic means hardcore cutthroat raiding, classic means cooperation and friendliness the kind of which has never been replicated in other games, classic can mean simply leveling up to 60 on your own. Of course, I get the impression you were being sarcastic, so do not take this as me attempting to say you're wrong by any means, simply to elaborate for the person that comes through here and believes that line wholeheartedly.

[Clark]

Chest, you're being a baby. If I were in your guild I'd be railing at you to get out of the negotations or shut your mouth, because frankly you're embarrassing BDA. And you can cry and call me a cheater or a bully all you want, but the fact is you're holding up the negotiations by being a greedy little whiner with an enormous chip on his shoulder, and everybody sees it.

You wanna call me greedy? Fine. I'm greedy. But I've got news for you: we're all greedy. You wanna call me a competitive jerk? Fine. I freely admit that I enjoy being in the top guild and pushing as hard as possible to down the most raid mobs.

But entitled? Get fucking real.

http://s27.postimg.org/kb7zpe003/Knock_Out_1.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also BDA has the most people online for any guild across the entire server 24/7. That isn't Tier 2 I'm sorry.

[BillyCranston]

"it's as if Obama told Israel and Palestine that they have 3 days to become best friends, otherwise we'll nuke em both."

Exactly what the staff bullshit "proposal" was/is.

[Uteunayr]

Also BDA has the most people online for any guild across the entire server 24/7. That isn't Tier 2 I'm sorry.

It has a lot of people online, because the vast majority of players are seeking a more casual experience from the game, but a lot of us want to be able to see some of the stuff that the upper tier guilds have been locking down.

Tier 1 in capacity? Probably. We've downed CT before, we've done some bigger bosses, as have a number of other "tier 2" guilds. But the vast majority of us don't like to play the game you all do. Tier 1 in terms of the attitude and the style of game we seek to play? Not even close. This isn't about anything other than that fact. Certainly, Tier 2 should have defenses so that no one guild can monopolize or even be complete douchebags in Tier 2. Numerous times I have seen the BDA representatives arguing for these things, things that are less beneficial to BDA in a purely competitive way, but far more beneficial to us in the style of play we seek. Yes, in a pure tiered raiding system, there is the threat that a guild with the capacity of BDA could dominate their tier, but that's thinking like a tier 1 guild. That's why Bregan reps have been perfectly fine with the idea of a percentage of casual kills, or wanting to go into VP as making you tier 1, so that way a guild (BDA or another in the future) can't do to tier 2 what we are arguing against.

You're looking for people to want to play in the shitshow of hardcore competitive raiding, but the vast majority don't like that. You can't pull people into it who don't want to be into that. If you can't make hardcore competition appealing enough to those involved to sustain hardcore competition, maybe the issue isn't in people are just too casual, maybe you're just too hardcore to compete for people playing a 14 year old elf simulator, many of whom are just sort of done with the stage in their lives in which they measure their epeen based on hardcore attitudes. You all can play tier 1 the way you all always have, and while I don't speak for BDA (as I am just a member), I can say that from my experiences with these people, that most people here do not want to play the game you all do. I certainly don't.

People really need to realize that not everyone thinks in terms of maximum material utility. Utilitarianism has been a corpse in political thought for at least half a century, if not more. Not everyone thinks of what they can do to take the most toys in the box. It isn't wrong to think that, nor is it wrong to not think that. But you can't expect the other to play by those rules, and for everything to work out right. Political science is against you if you think that that can work.

"I just don't see how any guild, GM or guide can dictate any guild to adapt to a play style they don't want to. Focus on that, figure how the two different sides can adapt it to this problem. Limiting NPCs to one tier or another and forced into the other side's play style is the second biggest issue." -Ambrotos

[Seltius]

Sure it is. Classic means different things to different people from different servers. Classic means PvP to some, classic means hardcore cutthroat raiding, classic means cooperation and friendliness the kind of which has never been replicated in other games, classic can mean simply leveling up to 60 on your own. Of course, I get the impression you were being sarcastic, so do not take this as me attempting to say you're wrong by any means, simply to elaborate for the person that comes through here and believes that line wholeheartedly.

Sorry that was humor.

In the end the server powers that be really need to step up and lay out how they want the server they are working so hard on to be.

Its like giving the inmates the keys and telling them to run the asylum. But first they have to come up with a non-crazy rule set.

[Uteunayr]

Sorry that was humor.

In the end the server powers that be really need to step up and lay out how they want the server they are working so hard on to be.

Its like giving the inmates the keys and telling them to run the asylum. But first they have to come up with a non-crazy rule set.

I thought you were. It's a sad state of affairs when it is difficult to know easily whether it was humor or actual belief, given that there are numerous people who would say that without any sense of humor to it whatsoever. Hence, I put in that last sentence.

It's an idea, but the reason, I think, that Rogean, Nil, and everyone else in the server staff, want the players to come to an agreement, is that then it is something they agreed to and made, so it has a greater chance of having a longer lasting influence. Rules forced down on people are less happily accepted than those made by people. That's just a truth, whether it be regrettable or beneficial. As for me, I've already made clear that Rogean's plan is not only the most fair by current political philosophy, but also provides the most justice under the same category, and when paralleled to actual political science that was researched, replicated, and taught today, has the best chance of creating a lasting reduction in conflict.