Sirken's proposal

[Aaron]

everyone under the sun has been making proposals, figured i'd jump on the band wagon and give you nerds a view into the mindset of Sirken (not the staff, just the Sirken). best proposal ever incoming.


First things first, Parameters need to be set. Top tier mobs belong in the top tier, that might be hard to understand, but luckily i specialize in common sense and offer tutoring sessions.

Tier 1 Mobs: VP, Trak, VS, CT
Tier 2 Mobs: Draco, Gore, Fay, Tal, Inny, Sev, Noble, Naggy, Vox
&
Tier 1 Guilds: IB/TMO/FE
Tier 2 Guilds: Everyone else that wants to kill a raid target



(OR if everyone insists that im crazy for putting the top tier mobs in the top tier, i would insist that any guild that kills Trak (the bottle neck mob for VP) gets moved into Tier 1 until they haven't killed Trak or a VP Mob for 30 days, at which time they would be delegated back to Tier 2).

Tier 1 Mobs: VP
Tier 2 Mobs: Trak, VS, CT, Draco, Gore, Fay, Tal, Inny, Sev, Noble, Naggy, Vox
&
Tier 1 Guilds: IB/TMO/FE/BDA
Tier 2 Guilds: Everyone else that wants to kill a raid target



ok, now that we have that all worked out, lets move on.

The first 8 days (because Derubael harbors an unhealthy vendetta against the number 7) of every month will be a "raid vacation" for all Tier 1 guilds in regards to Tier 2 mobs (ie: T1 guilds can only kill T1 mobs in the first 8 days). They can use this time to avoid burnout, help out pals, fap, or whatever as long as they aren't raiding T2 mobs. During this 8 day period only Tier 2 guilds will be allowed to raid anything they want. the rest of the month (days 9-30or31) would be a FFA for all guilds on the server.

This system allows T2 guilds to compete with other T2 guilds, while also allowing the T1 guilds to stay competitive with the other T1 guilds. no silly rotations, no silly councils, no BS. just racing for mobs the way it should be. for the people that are hell bent on a rotation, i say this; there are tons of MMOs with instanced raids and triggered bosses, EQ is not one of those games. not having instances or triggered bosses was one of the things that set Classic EQ apart from all the crap games that exist today. i know that the staff doesn't want a rotation, and would prefer to see racing/competing for the targets.

Simulated Patch Day Repops would not change anything. if the repop happens in the first 8 days of the month, T1 guilds have to sit out on T2 mobs. if the repop happens after the 8th of the month it would be treated as a FFA.


Side Rules:
anyone caught intentionally training at raids eats a perma ban, and their guild eats a four week raid suspension.
respect FTE messages, anyone that ignores FTE and Kill Steals a mob will earn their guild a four week raid suspension.
No guild will have more than two representatives present at any raid mob at any time.
Players will not be allowed to camp out at raid mobs ahead of time (would require work from either nilbog or rogean to ensure any toon camped out at a raid spot like traks lair would be relocated to zone in when they next logged in) to encourage actually racing for targets.


OMG Sirken just fixed the raid scene, PRAS

You're Welcome

I like it.

[Elements]

Sirken's plan is so close to the Simple Plan with some extra clarity around the edges. It's awesome. The only thing it needs is a stipulation preventing a T2 guild from monopolizing tier 2.

[Jaxon]

Encouraging guilds to race for FTE in a fully popped zone is not the way to keep your petition queue low.

[Mezzmur]

The first 8 days (because Derubael harbors an unhealthy vendetta against the number 7) of every month will be a "raid vacation" for all Tier 1 guilds in regards to Tier 2 mobs (ie: T1 guilds can only kill T1 mobs in the first 8 days). They can use this time to avoid burnout, help out pals, fap, or whatever as long as they aren't raiding T2 mobs. During this 8 day period only Tier 2 guilds will be allowed to raid anything they want. the rest of the month (days 9-30or31) would be a FFA for all guilds on the server.

(ie: T1 guilds can only kill T2 mobs in the first 8 days) ???

Make it 10 days. I've already proven mathematically that mobs-per-guild in this phase would be ideal and helps with the feast/famine of variance.

Otherwise this is very similar to the TMO/FE original proposal with MORE mobs in T2 pool.

For those that missed the logic and math:
http://i.imgur.com/rrvFa7J.png

Again, this is more mobs-per-guild in Tier 2 than Divinity's plan and only adds MORE to their pool with Sirken's plan.

[Alarti0001]

The first 8 days (because Derubael harbors an unhealthy vendetta against the number 7) of every month will be a "raid vacation" for all Tier 1 guilds in regards to Tier 2 mobs (ie: T1 guilds can only kill T1 mobs in the first 8 days). They can use this time to avoid burnout, help out pals, fap, or whatever as long as they aren't raiding T2 mobs. During this 8 day period only Tier 2 guilds will be allowed to raid anything they want. the rest of the month (days 9-30or31) would be a FFA for all guilds on the server.

(ie: T1 guilds can only kill T2 mobs in the first 8 days) ???

Make it 10 days. I've already proven mathematically that mobs-per-guild in this phase would be ideal and helps with the feast/famine of variance.

Otherwise this is very similar to the TMO/FE original proposal with MORE mobs in T2 pool.



Again, this is more mobs-per-guild in Tier 2 than Divinity's plan and only adds MORE to their pool with Sirken's plan.

Make it 5 days!

[Alarti0001]

Make it 15

Make it 3 !

[Ambrotos]

5 days for T1 guilds not killing T1 mobs?

Nm my math is all jacked. I need to wake up more before I read.

[Nocsucow]

make it 2

[Mezzmur]

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

Modified the sheet for 10 days with Sirken's mob schedule.

[-Catherin-]

The plan unfortunately keeps the big 4 (VS, Inny, CT, Trak) Completely in the hands of only two guilds to an even higher extreme than any other proposal yet.

These mobs are the point of contention atm in the raid discussions. And are the mobs that the T2 guilds have been blocked from (in some cases just to keep them from having them) for years.

A proposal that makes the majority of this content even more out of reach is not going to fly, except for two guilds maybe.

Not knocking you for trying Sirken. You guys must hate this whole thing more than any of us. Fact is though is I see a proposal right now (The staff proposal posted by Rogean) that would give more than 50% of the mobs to two forces (we are talking half outside of VP plus VP, to TMO and FE/IB)... and then less than 50% (only mobs outside of VP, to *SIX* other guilds. also allowing more growth in T2 for other guilds to join and take a piece of that pie.) it doesn't allow the T1 guilds to completely dominate the "big 4" but they still get the lions share regardless.

Yes im biased. but no matter how you look at it, its triple the guilds sharing a smaller piece of the pie with a complete and total concession of VP. And that is before more guilds jump in. And they are okay with it. its probably going to have to be something near this if you really want them to play ball.

[Alarti0001]

5 days for T1 guilds not killing T1 mobs?

I would say bump it up to 14, and let T2 guilds make their own rotation if that's what they want to do.

That is the essence of another proposal. It was already rejected.

[Mezzmur]

5 days for T1 guilds not killing T1 mobs?

Nm my math is all jacked. I need to wake up more before I read.

Look at the grid and the pools. 10 days is the best break.

[Alarti0001]

The plan unfortunately keeps the big 4 (VS, Inny, CT, Trak) Completely in the hands of only two guilds to an even higher extreme than any other proposal yet.

3 guilds. Also not extreme

These mobs are the point of contention atm in the raid discussions. And are the mobs that the T2 guilds have been blocked from (in some cases just to keep them from having them) for years.

T2 guilds are not prevented from raiding these mobs. You seem constantly confused by this.

A proposal that makes the majority of this content even more out of reach is not going to fly, except for two guilds maybe.

Not knocking you for trying Sirken. You guys must hate this whole thing more than any of us. Fact is though is I see a proposal right now that would give more than 50% of the mobs two two forces (we are talking half outside of VP plus VP, to TMO and FE/IB)... and then less than 50% (only mobs outside of VP, to *SIX* other guilds. also allowing more growth in T2 for other guilds to join and take a piece of that pie.)

VP raid shouldnt count to totals unless you are killing in VP. I'd split VP targets with Taken. Come get them.

[Mezzmur]

The plan unfortunately keeps the big 4 (VS, Inny, CT, Trak) Completely in the hands of only two guilds to an even higher extreme than any other proposal yet.


It doesn't. Create a tier2 rotation if you want for tier2 guilds, it splits it so that you actually get rewarded if you want to work while giving those not interested in that still a significant portion of mobs and a crack at the big 4 on a regular basis.

It's fair, not 50/50.

[Alarti0001]

It's fair, not 50/50.

[Sirken]

Not knocking you for trying Sirken. You guys must hate this whole thing more than any of us. Fact is though is I see a proposal right now (The staff proposal posted by Rogean) that would give more than 50% of the mobs to two forces (we are talking half outside of VP plus VP, to TMO and FE/IB)... and then less than 50% (only mobs outside of VP, to *SIX* other guilds. also allowing more growth in T2 for other guilds to join and take a piece of that pie.)

Yes im biased. but no matter how you look at it, its triple the guilds sharing a smaller piece of the pie with a complete and total concession of VP. And that is before more guilds jump in. And they are okay with it. its probably going to have to be something near this if you really want them to play ball.

sounds pretty selfish. T1 guilds are giving up mobs, T2 guilds are gaining mobs, nobody loves it 100%,

kinda sounds perfect to me

[doraf]

T1 guilds are giving up mobs, T2 guilds are gaining mobs, nobody loves it 100%,

kinda sounds perfect to me

+1

[Funkutron5000]

In all of these proposals TMO, FE, and IB are the only guilds losing access to mobs. Every other guild is gaining significantly more access than they had before. No matter what we lose access to mobs.

I can understand why those not in TMO, FE, and IB want access to more mobs and to play their own way, but can the people on the other side at least acknowledge the reverse without calling us all hideous no-life neckbeards?

[Alarti0001]

In all of these proposals TMO, FE, and IB are the only guilds losing access to mobs. Every other guild is gaining significantly more access than they had before. No matter what we lose access to mobs.

I can understand why those not in TMO, FE, and IB want access to more mobs and to play their own way, but can the people on the other side at least acknowledge the reverse without calling us all hideous no-life neckbeards?

How about unemployed degenerates?

[Rhambuk]

but can the people on the other side at least acknowledge the reverse without calling us all hideous no-life neckbeards?

Is this why the phrase casual scum popped up?

I hadn't seen in until I came back but im not surprised the hardcores are tired of being called "shit" all the time....

[-Catherin-]

Just saying what I see from my point of view Sirken. And that doesn't mean im right obviously. I already admitted my view is biased :p

Either way even though im in a T2 guild there really isn't anything at stake for me other than something else to do.

I'm pointing out the contention of the matter right now is the big 4. So both sides should really just get to the heart of the matter that this is what its all about and stop playing word/power games

[Ravager]

sounds pretty selfish. T1 guilds are giving up mobs, T2 guilds are gaining mobs, nobody loves it 100%,

kinda sounds perfect to me

T2 has been giving up mobs for years. Remove FTE as the defacto rule and then we can talk about who is doing the actual giving up.

[Sirken]

Just saying what I see Sirken. I already admitted my view is biased :p

<3

[Sirken]

T2 has been giving up mobs for years. Remove FTE as the defacto rule and then we can talk about who is doing the actual giving up.

you have to have something, before u can actually give it up.

[ElanoraBryght]

Without adding start of month planned server repops, some raid mobs - half? Does anyone have a chart tracking all kills and not just most recent kill time - will only spawn once in the first 10 days of any given month.

[falkun]

I like the heavy-handed PNP punishments, even though they still require fraps and petitionquest. Keep those.

Can we get something to limit FTE snipes? Seeing aggro logs where 1 man gets FTE, another guild puts 15-25 on the mob (<5seconds after), and then the original guild puts 5-10 on the mob a minute later and keep the mob due to FTE is stupid, especially on encounters that are not pulled (so excluding fay, tal, sev, and possibly gore).

That would begin to cover the PNP d-baggery.

[arsenalpow]

you have to have something, before u can actually give it up.

So by refusing to DA stall tank, FTE snipe, leapfrog, train with plausible deniability, and create mounds of petitions and issues for you to mediate we have therefore given up our opportunity to see end game content. Got it.

[Mezzmur]

Without adding start of month planned server repops, some raid mobs - half? Does anyone have a chart tracking all kills and not just most recent kill time - will only spawn once in the first 10 days of any given month.

With variance this will always change. You could have more or less in a date range. They could repop on day 1 of the first next month after an agreement to set it off right.

[Sirken]

So by refusing to DA stall tank, FTE snipe, leapfrog, train with plausible deniability, and create mounds of petitions and issues for you to mediate we have therefore given up our opportunity to see end game content. Got it.

not at all what i said, and not at all what the post i quoted said.

but A+ trying to stick words in my mouth

[Rhambuk]

I like the heavy-handed PNP punishments, even though they still require fraps and petitionquest.

big big fan of the perma bans and suspensions for training etc.

Theres no need for all of the douchebaggery that's been going on over the past years.

[Mezzmur]

So by refusing to DA stall tank, FTE snipe, leapfrog, train with plausible deniability, and create mounds of petitions and issues for you to mediate we have therefore given up our opportunity to see end game content. Got it.

Old system is gone. This new proposal is fair, it's over 50% of all targets to tier 2, but still allows for growth and a top end, yet reserves targets for guilds who want to get in a rotation and only kill in their way.

[Thulack]

So by refusing to DA stall tank, FTE snipe, leapfrog, train with plausible deniability, and create mounds of petitions and issues for you to mediate we have therefore given up our opportunity to see end game content. Got it.

[Mezzmur]

not at all what i said, and not at all what the post i quoted said.

but A+ trying to stick words in my mouth

I want to, in your mouth.

[Exmo]

So trackers for trak Must be a COTH Mage and a toon that can Lavant/Succor and the Camped force must be at the Succor Location.

Got it. Still not really a race.

But it's an Improvement for sure.

I'd like to see Rules around specific encounters to make them less a shitshow.

Whoever gets FTE on the CT Spawned Draco gets 20 Minutes to attempt CT, other guilds must leave the zone.

Tola and the 4 Juggs Can't Be Skipped Prior to Trak Engage, so whoever pulls them gets 20 minutes for trak.

Basically the Ragefire Pearl Rule for each Encounter. Shit make it 1 attempt, rather than 20 minutes, I don't care, but part of the solution has to be eliminating the incentive to pull without control over the situation, because that's what allowed the current mentality to flourish.

[Maximius]

If we get rid of the current FTE rules and use a First In Force type system it would eliminate a lot of training and therefore a lot of GM headache...

But why would the top tier let that happen when you can send a 4khp monk to javelin a mob? People are arguing about stall tactics with DA idols, whirlwind, etc. FTE timer is the ultimate stall tactic.

[Mezzmur]

By the way, on avgerage, you're talking about ONE CT, Inny, and VS PER MONTH that is FFA. Tier 2 can FTE those still but tier 1 cannot get in on your rotation of 1 less. This is 100% fair.

[falkun]

Old system is gone. This new proposal is fair, it's over 50% of all targets to tier 2, but still allows for growth and a top end, yet reserves targets for guilds who want to get in a rotation and only kill in their way.

Its one week (8 days) of non-interference on Tier2, the rest is FFA, as it has been for the last couple years. There are stipulations that hopefully decrease PNP infractions, but those will still require fraps and petitionquest. Tier2 wants to cut PNP infractions with a rotation, Sirken wants to cut PNP infractions with a heavy hand of justice. Personally, I'd rather have the justice, but justice is grey and history shows its difficult to actually enforce. Maybe the punishments are harsh enough to deter PNP infraction occurances?

[Moodie]

I don't like the part where a single Trak kill locks you as a Tier 1 guild.

[Derubael]

sounds pretty selfish. T1 guilds are giving up mobs, T2 guilds are gaining mobs, nobody loves it 100%,

kinda sounds perfect to me

[Razdeline]

If we get rid of the current FTE rules and use a First In Force type system it would eliminate a lot of training and therefore a lot of GM headache...

But why would the top tier let that happen when you can send a 4khp monk to javelin a mob? People are arguing about stall tactics with DA idols, whirlwind, etc. FTE timer is the ultimate stall tactic.

If another guild gets FTE on a mob, only the guild that has FTE should attack it.

That's how it was on live, and it worked.

[Maximius]

Maybe the punishments are harsh enough to deter PNP infraction occurances?

The death penalty works. Oh wait...

[Mezzmur]

Its one week (8 days) of non-interference on Tier2, the rest is FFA, as it has been for the last couple years. There are stipulations that hopefully decrease PNP infractions, but those will still require fraps and petitionquest. Tier2 wants to cut PNP infractions with a rotation, Sirken wants to cut PNP infractions with a heavy hand of justice. Personally, I'd rather have the justice, but justice is grey and history shows its difficult to actually enforce. Maybe the punishments are harsh enough to deter PNP infraction occurances?

I suggest 10 days. Best breakdown, that's why I make pretty pictures.

[Razdeline]

Also on my server, if guild 'a' failed on a raid target (this is velious era mind you), they knew they were giving the next kill attempt to the second person in line. And this would go vise versa until a mob finally died.

[Brut]

Still think one priority in this whole discussion should be to do something to fix the said DA stall tanking, FTE sniping, leapfrogging, training with plausible deniability, and creating mounds of petitions. Not just cut the whole server in half.

That's what the very first proposition was mostly about anyway, for example DA stalling shouldn't be hard to fix at all. The big idea originally was that you DA to engage Trak so you can position the guy properly and take the first banish before the main tank goes in. It won't be hard to monitor if some guild chains clerics and necros into lair to keep the thing going, and if there's a 4week ban looming over the guild's head, that sure as hell isn't going to be a thing they'll take a risk for.

4week guild bans alone are going to be a huge incentive to start playing nicely, and Rogeman has already thrown ideas about banishing precamped players. Throw in possible cut down variances and week and a half of hands off mobs and I rly fail to see what all the hubbub's about. Just saying "no! the competition is toxic! we don't want any of it!" is silly, just suck the poison out and let's see how it works. If it doesn't get fixed on the first try, work on it some more.

[Mezzmur]

mezzmur makes a lot of sense, should support this idea.

[-Catherin-]

you could say 10 days and it is practically the same thing as 7 though, because of variance. I hate variance in its current form :(

I think it is necessary to have it, but as large as it currently is, with extended variance on top of it is what has caused these discussions in the first place imo.

Variance as it currently is has to drive the "T2" guilds to such extremes that it is just not realistic for us to do it. I've done my share of tracking. it's turned killing a target into simply a relief for me. there is no fun involved.

I know we have been told over and over again this isn't changing. I just think an unrealistically large variance is why T2 guilds cant compete.

[Droog007]

you have to have something, before u can actually give it up.

The only way to interpret this, in our unique context here, is: You haven't sunk low enough to win these mobs in the ridiculous meta-game that has evolved on this server, so you have no claim over them.

Some of us beg to differ.

[Maximius]

If another guild gets FTE on a mob, only the guild that has FTE should attack it.

That's how it was on live, and it worked.

Way back when my guild had a FIF agreement with several other guilds. If 2 guilds were contesting Vindi whoever got kill force to the arena first got the right to engage, but only had 5 min to do so. If they wiped the other guild could snap it up.

This allowed for racing and heavy competition but kept some semblance of order.

If A-Team was raiding Juggs and Trak popped they wouldnt have to pull out a slide rule to know if they could make an attempt, they have FIF. Guilds would be free to login on poopsock mountain but would have to wait for their attempt or 5 mins before engaging. They could also pass on the chance.

It bears similarities to FTE but doesn't allow a single toon to heroquest and tag a mob for their guild to log in and kill.

All that said I don't think FIF would work here but it might be better than what we have. Racing here = alt armies and multiple accounts which is much different that live.

[Mezzmur]

Personally, for me, tracking and tagging FTE on say VS is the biggest rush in game for me and makes it worth tracking. I'm going to miss that, all of these PNP, no sock in room rules will do away with that. I'm ok with that, but let's have a reasonable system.

I'm all for whatever meta rules you want but this mob share day baseline is by far the most equitable solution for everyone. It will always yield more mobs per guild than divinity's plan in any month.

[Mezzmur]

you could say 10 days and it is practically the same thing as 7 though, because of variance. I hate variance in its current form :(

I think it is necessary to have it, but as large as it currently is, with extended variance on top of it is what has caused these discussions in the first place imo.

Variance as it currently is has to drive the "T2" guilds to such extremes that it is just not realistic for us to do it. I've done my share of tracking. it's turned killing a target into simply a relief for me. there is no fun involved.

I know we have been told over and over again this isn't changing. I just think an unrealistically large variance is why T2 guilds cant compete.

Give it a chance, if it goes well they'll consider Adjusting variance to a more reasonable phase.

Shit, it would be reasonably easy (speaking as a programmer) to have a check if mob killed in first 10 days, 0 variance. Again, not something happening immediately bit if we came to an agreement and lives with it it would be a reasonable request. People are thinking instant gratification not, put in some time and happily ever after.

[falkun]

I suggest 10 days. Best breakdown, that's why I make pretty pictures.
This one?
http://i.imgur.com/rrvFa7J.png
Am I reading Sirken's proposal wrong?
The first 8 days (because Derubael harbors an unhealthy vendetta against the number 7) of every month will be a "raid vacation" for all Tier 1 guilds in regards to Tier 2 mobs (ie: T1 guilds can only kill T1 mobs in the first 8 days). They can use this time to avoid burnout, help out pals, fap, or whatever as long as they aren't raiding T2 mobs. During this 8 day period only Tier 2 guilds will be allowed to raid anything they want. the rest of the month (days 9-30or31) would be a FFA for all guilds on the server.

Because this is how I read his proposal:
http://i.imgur.com/RjPLGML.png
That's also super generous because I doubt you'd see more than a single 7-day spawn in 8 days, let alone all five (Tal, Sev, Gore, Inny, Fay). Now maybe if the PNP is adhered to (like it was these last two weeks), it might work. I'd do well in BDA, but the rest of "tier2" would get shafted. I don't speak for BDA, but since tier2 has supported BDA, it looks like BDA is supporting tier2.

[YendorLootmonkey]

The high stakes for PNP infractions here turns this into FrapsQuest/RulesLawyerQuest.

[Troubled]

Either I'm reading these proposals wrong or they keep getting more top heavy and leave the t2 guilds worse off and trying to get them to fight for scraps.

Thanks for thinking up a proposal though, Sirken. It's definitely time consuming, and certainly not an easy task to undertake.

[Tycko]

Assumptions:
Staff wants to minimize CSR => Staff wants to let server govern themselves.
Staff does not want 1-2 guilds dominating raid content.

Over the past few months I have seen the staff take a neutral position in most things. I don't understand why the staff is getting so involved in the creation of the "Treaty of P99" , from all the posts I have read you guys seem to be moving away from a neutral position.

This entire series of events was set in motion by a guild suspension. In the process of suspending said guild, the staff ( via Rogean ) put out a message for the direction the staff wants the server to take.

What were the staffs objectives and goals?
*Lower petition ques?
*Reduce CSR time?
*Increase player base with access to specific raid mobs?

The point I am trying to make is, you obviously care about what direction this server goes to, for whatever direction that may be. Yet you leave it up for the server to "figure out on our own." Now after 2 weeks the entire server is raid banned and staff proposals that are designed to finalize a deal are being promoted.

So since your now directly involved , why not just MAKE IT the way you wanted it. Because all this wiggle room just leads to everyone's different interpretation of your "vision".

There have been enough quotes from the original post from Rogean so I'll just wrap this up by saying, everyone interpreted the intent of that post differently. You need to lead the way to reaching those objectives and goals. I may be wrong, but it appears the staff has spent WAY more time and energy on this than what was intended.

__________________________________________________ ________________________

TL/DR summary:
You obviously wanted something to change on the server. You wanted the playerbase to be apart of that change. You now have input from all raid guilds on what they want. Just make the changes so everyone can adapt or move on.


__________________________________________________ _____________________
It blows me away how much time you guys invest in this as a "hobby" and I hope you all had a great Christmas and New Year. Thanks for providing this great server , I have had a lot of fun times in my 2-3 years in the community.

[Tanthallas]

This one?
http://i.imgur.com/rrvFa7J.png
Am I reading Sirken's proposal wrong?

Because this is how I read his proposal:
http://i.imgur.com/RjPLGML.png
That's also super generous because I doubt you'd see more than a single 7-day spawn in 8 days, let alone all five (Tal, Sev, Gore, Inny, Fay). Now maybe if the PNP is adhered to (like it was these last two weeks), it might work. I'd do well in BDA, but the rest of "tier2" would get shafted. I don't speak for BDA, but since tier2 has supported BDA, it looks like BDA is supporting tier2.

The second one is Sirkens proposal.

[Rhambuk]

The high stakes for PNP infractions here turns this into FrapsQuest/RulesLawyerQuest.

its already fraps and rules lawyers man

[Troubled]

Out of all the T1/Sirken/Deru proposals, FE's, conceded to 10 days at the start of the month, is certainly the most appealing.

[Buriedpast]

Should we just come back to the idea of a bag limit style raid?

Or a raid in which you have a limited amount of people per week? So BDA can use 50 people for trak, and TMO can use 30.

Nuke soulfires though :p

[Mezzmur]

This one?
http://i.imgur.com/rrvFa7J.png
Am I reading Sirken's proposal wrong?

Because this is how I read his proposal:
http://i.imgur.com/RjPLGML.png
That's also super generous because I doubt you'd see more than a single 7-day spawn in 8 days, let alone all five (Tal, Sev, Gore, Inny, Fay). Now maybe if the PNP is adhered to (like it was these last two weeks), it might work. I'd do well in BDA, but the rest of "tier2" would get shafted. I don't speak for BDA, but since tier2 has supported BDA, it looks like BDA is supporting tier2.

You could be right, I brought TMO's hands off 20 days into it. I think that makes sense. I'll just post a hybrid version with sirken's. Would be 110% fair.

[Buriedpast]

Remember a bag limit still has all the rushing to mobs etc. Can still have the no poopsock rules, no DA stalling etc. All of those tertiary rules that we need.

And can add stuff like no bagged mob by TMOFEIB can be killed by TMOFEIB on its respawn for instance.

[Hitpoint]

Bag style has already been shot down. Lets move on.

[Buriedpast]

Bag style has already been shot down. Lets move on.

I just think it allows for strategic selection of mobs, along with rewarding individuals:
"yes johnny, thanks for the tracking hours, we'll be going after inny hard the nxt two weeks with our allowance to get you your eye" for instance.

[Imslap]

You could be right, I brought TMO's hands off 20 days into it. I think that makes sense. I'll just post a hybrid version with sirken's. Would be 110% fair.

I have absolutely no issue with the version of Sirken's plan that you posted Flippie.

[Aaron]

It doesn't. Create a tier2 rotation if you want for tier2 guilds, it splits it so that you actually get rewarded if you want to work while giving those not interested in that still a significant portion of mobs and a crack at the big 4 on a regular basis.

It's fair, not 50/50.

As a casual, I agree with this.

[falkun]

Also, Tykco is right. Rogean's post, which I understood as him posting *after* consulting with Nilbog, Sirken, and maybe some of the GMs and devs under them, reads as though the PNP is being flagrantly violated, and TMO's two weeks and now the server's current raid suspension was a big reset button to get the PNP back into the game. Sirken's proposal is the first one to implement PNP rules, or more accurately punishments for PNP infractions. The other proposals, namely the Divinity plan, enforce PNP through rotation periods. But that was due to other stipulations from Rogean to not anticipate rule or code changes. Sirken's proposal blatantly asks for a code change for the no-poopsock mechanic, and the 7 or 8 days really benefits from changes to Variance to work well. Basically, tier2 developed a proposal that met the objectives, and then CSR came in and started making proposals that do not meet the same criteria.

I like seeing the CSR proposals, they give insight into your views. But if they aren't written to the same criteria, no wonder they don't match our player-derived proposals.

[radditsu]

I kinda want one of these proposals to be an actual proposal.


Like Sirken making an honest woman out of Rogean...


Oh well, I guess only in my p99 slash fiction

[Mezzmur]

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

[Sirken]

I want to, in your mouth.
:eek:

There are stipulations that hopefully decrease PNP infractions, but those will still require fraps and petitionquest. Tier2 wants to cut PNP infractions with a rotation
as a person that has to deal with petitionquest, i think i have a better idea of what causes more petitions, and would really appreciate it if players stopped trying to use that argument. Let the staff tell you what will and what won't blow up the petition queue.

The death penalty works. Oh wait...
seriously? do u have any idea how many people i'd have murdered if it wasn't illegal?

Still think one priority in this whole discussion should be to do something to fix the said DA stall tanking, FTE sniping, leapfrogging, training with plausible deniability, and creating mounds of petitions. Not just cut the whole server in half.
reread my OP, it addresses all of that.

I hate variance in its current form :(
variance is a byproduct of poopsocking. less poopsocking could = less variance.

The only way to interpret this, in our unique context here, is: You haven't sunk low enough to win these mobs in the ridiculous meta-game that has evolved on this server, so you have no claim over them. Some of us beg to differ.
holy shit, reading comprehension. you said you were giving things up, i pointed out that were not not in fact giving things up. and (SPOILER ALERT) you are only GAINING. the only people actually having things taken off their plates are the T1 guilds. how you feel about it doesn't make it less true. you might hate it, it might think it sucks, but facts are facts.

[Imslap]

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

SIGNED

[Alarti0001]

holy shit, reading comprehension. you said you were giving things up, i pointed out that were not not in fact giving things up. and (SPOILER ALERT) you are only GAINING. the only people actually having things taken off their plates are the T1 guilds. how you feel about it doesn't make it less true. you might hate it, it might think it sucks, but facts are facts.

[Hitpoint]

holy shit, reading comprehension. you said you were giving things up, i pointed out that were not not in fact giving things up. and (SPOILER ALERT) you are only GAINING. the only people actually having things taken off their plates are the T1 guilds. how you feel about it doesn't make it less true. you might hate it, it might think it sucks, but facts are facts.

Want to make this my sig. People are taking things so far, GMs bringing us back to reality.

[Moodie]

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

Not bad

[Sinestria]

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

Maybe I didn't read his proposal correctly, but here is what I understood:

First 8 days: T1 kills T2 mobs only, T2 kills whatever
Rest of month: FFA

This is just reading his initial post in the raid section, am I wrong?

[Alarti0001]

Want to make this my sig. People are taking things so far, GMs bringing us back to reality.

Got FTE on that shit

[Alarti0001]

Maybe I didn't read his proposal correctly, but here is what I understood:

First 8 days: T1 kills T2 mobs only, T2 kills whatever
Rest of month: FFA

This is just reading his initial post in the raid section, am I wrong?

I read it differently.

[Mezzmur]

Maybe I didn't read his proposal correctly, but here is what I understood:

First 8 days: T1 kills T2 mobs only, T2 kills whatever
Rest of month: FFA

This is just reading his initial post in the raid section, am I wrong?

I'm taking Sirken's post and making a hybrid with TMO/FE's.

Sirken doesn't reserve ANY tier2 mobs in the last 20 days of the month. I'm suggesting adding that back from TMO/FE's proposal, but using Sirken's Tier1/2 mobs definition.

TMO/FE's mobs-per-guild reservation in the "hands off" areas was actually more generous than Sirken's (as I read it).

Basically this keeps everyone busy all month long, Tier 1 has a different set days 1-10 and 11-31. Tier 2 can go for FFA mobs anytime they want, but can also participate in the rotation. It allows the reward of putting in effort to have a *slightly* higher chance at the "big 4" but still gives the tier 2/rotation crew a chance at them on a regular basis.

[-Catherin-]

It's a vicious cycle though Sirken.

"Less poopsocking could = less variance"

This is wonderful, and im sure *everyone* would love that to happen. The problem however is that right now for a tier 2 guild to have any chance at all against a tier one guild we HAVE to poopsock. Taken tried to kill Innoruuk the way he was meant to be killed. Our competition just leapfrogs over us, pulls him and every mob in the path to the zone-in and kills him there. If they die in the attempt, its okay because we die to their train, and they just continue to repeat this until it succeeds for them while we try to corpse recover for 4 hours and repeatedly wipe to the trains. This is something that should not be allowed to happen.

This is not a what "may happen" it is what "does" happen and what has happened whenever we try to go the no poopsock route. we hate doing it but it is the "only" way to have any chance unless the rules change. I've gotten a few congratulations (staff included) for stepping it up and getting some of these targets. But I don't think we should be congratulated. how we do it and how T1 guilds do it are both against the spirit of PnP and continues to aggravate the situation


But Its acts like these by T1 guilds that make it impossible for us to compete without socking. Telling us less poopsocking may lead to less variance is in effect forfeiting what little we have been able to wrestle away from the T1 guilds in the current environment with no promise it will actually change variance.

I would bet people would be more willing to stop if we could get a "less poopsocking WILL lead to less variance."

<3

[Elements]

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

I think this is giving up WAY to much to people who aren't willing to put forth a fraction of the effort of tier 1 guilds. I'd say first spawn of the month to anything outside VP be Tier 2 only whether its server repop or natural spawn. If any Tier 2 guild bags more than 2 targets in a month then they are moved up to tier 1 for the following month.

[Droog007]

holy shit, reading comprehension. you said you were giving things up, i pointed out that were not not in fact giving things up. and (SPOILER ALERT) you are only GAINING. the only people actually having things taken off their plates are the T1 guilds. how you feel about it doesn't make it less true. you might hate it, it might think it sucks, but facts are facts.

I've just grown very weary of the standpoint adopted by many of the "Tier Ones" which is: If you don't want to play this game that we made up and bolted on to EQ, then you just want handouts and treasure baths...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xdIbcbzjEbs/UJmct26-aRI/AAAAAAAAEwY/4Q6C_tNfdJk/s1600/562+Treasure+Bath.jpg

... and you do not deserve to have these encounters or reap the rewards.

A quip from the staff that basically reads "You can't lose it if you never had it" seems to support that sentiment, and I find it irksome...

If it's really just pointless semantics, then fine ... :p

[radditsu]

Its got a spreadsheet/caleandar, I like it

[Daldaen]

I fail to grasp the argument that hours tracking and the ability to muster a raid force at all hours, is described by the word "effort".

These guilds are still tanking, healing, DPSing the raid mobs. The mobs are getting slowed and debuffed, pulled and CC'd. People are still having to Rez on wipes and rebuff.

Blue is PvE. They are putting in the effort to beat the NPC Environment the game places before them.

The raid environment is a player created phenomena. Suggesting people don't deserve pixels from the actual NPC environment because they don't enjoy the same player driven competition as you, is foolish.

[Mezzmur]

I fail to grasp the argument that hours tracking and the ability to muster a raid force at all hours, is described by the word "effort".

These guilds are still tanking, healing, DPSing the raid mobs. The mobs are getting slowed and debuffed, pulled and CC'd. People are still having to Rez on wipes and rebuff.

Blue is PvE. They are putting in the effort to beat the NPC Environment the game places before them.

The raid environment is a player created phenomena. Suggesting people don't deserve pixels from the actual NPC environment because they don't enjoy the same player driven competition as you, is foolish.

I don't turn on my PS3 and play call of duty and ask for all guns, skins, power ups, etc the second I turn it on. People who have been faithful to the server and have played since 2010 (like myself) will ALWAYS have an advantage because they've put more time into the game. This is about trying to share with people without buttfucking those that have been around a long time or are more interested in the hardcore gaming style.

Read this post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1254125#post1254125

[Dirkus]

I don't turn on my PS3 and play call of duty and ask for all guns, skins, power ups, etc the second I turn it on. People who have been faithful to the server and have played since 2010 (like myself) will ALWAYS have an advantage because they've put more time into the game. This is about trying to share with people without buttfucking those that have been around a long time or are more interested in the hardcore gaming style.

Read this post:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1254125#post1254125

The problem with your analogy is that there aren't a limited number of guns etc to go around. People with full time jobs and families can still obtain these things but at their own pace. On P99 you have to be hardcore to even have the chance at these pixels.

[Rhambuk]

I don't turn on my PS3 and play call of duty and ask for all guns, skins, power ups, etc the second I turn it on.

This is a bad example, they aren't wanting to be level 60 epic BiS once they hit the create character button.

instead think of cod, you get exp per kill for those guns if you had to sit and wait 10+ hours to find one guy to kill to get that exp, doesn't that seem a little extreme?

[Mezzmur]

Ok. How about getting an FBSS. Camp frenzy or farm pp?

Now you're given a free shot at frenzy already spawned with some items and no interference.

[Hitpoint]

The problem with your analogy is that there aren't a limited number of guns etc to go around. People with full time jobs and families can still obtain these things but at their own pace. On P99 you have to be hardcore to even have the chance at these pixels.

Until now. Now there is a chance for those with families and responsibilities to obtain them, in every single proposal.

Oh wait. Only the ones which take the most from FE/IB and TMO are acceptable.

[-Catherin-]

Taking off for the weekend now. hope to see a better server when I return :p

[falkun]

I don't turn on my PS3 and play call of duty and ask for all guns, skins, power ups, etc the second I turn it on.
So your CoD guns are contingent on you winning every single match? Or can you still get those guns if you lost every single match you ever played (it would just take longer)? How does you getting guns stop your clan-buddy from getting guns? Also, when you play CoD, you can attack your enemy to reach that objective? Or do the two sides just run at the objective and stand next to it together?

[Funkutron5000]

For people that missed this exchange in Sirken's Proposal Thread:

Tiers should reflect a differentiation of playstyles between guilds
Tiers should not reflect the quality of loot from each mob.

This seems to be a major sticking point between our two parties.
See, this is where you are wrong.

The guilds who are willing to put in more time and effort in any MMO are ALWAYS going to reap the most, and the best, rewards.. Yes, on Project 1999 that unfortunately means that the TMO's and FE/IB's and TR's are going to get most of the 'top tier' mobs, because they are simply willing to invest time and effort into the raid scene that the other guilds are not.

To be clear, tracking a mob over a 48+ hr window IS effort. Mobilizing for that mob with your camped out alt army IS time and effort. I understand why you don't want to play that game, and I agree with you on that point. I would not want to do so either. However, they should not be penalized and have their merbs taken away because they are willing to do so and you are not.

TMO/FE gave the opposing side several GENEROUS offers that included a huge range of mobs. FE even hesitantly agreed to Prop C, which, despite your protests, was in fact heavily weighted towards casuals. Just because it didn't have 'enough' ct/trak/vs/inny kills did not mean it wasn't in your favor.

Want the best pixels? Put the time in to get them. If another guild is putting more time and effort into those pixels, why do you deserve them as much as they do?

This is pretty much how I feel. I won't speak for Sirken, but I think he feels the same way too. The point of this was not to get casuals an even 50/50 split on mobs outside of VP. It was to allow you guys to get a little more than you were getting previously, which was pretty much 0, and to clean up some of the shenanigans that were happening on the raid scene. I see no reason why TMO/FE should accept any proposal that they feel doesn't give them what they've earned. And yes, they have earned it. Not every engage in the past year has been filled with bullshit and shenanigans. 80% of encounters go just fine.

They made concessions to give a huge number of mobs for you guys to put on rotation, and you turned it down because 'it is not enough of the mobs we want'. I guess raiding is only fun and enjoyable if you're always getting the best targets with the best pixels, right?

I really do hope you guys can work out a deal, because I really do want ALL of the casual guilds to have targets to raid all month long. I think it supports server growth, lets everyone have fun, and lets everyone experience this great game we call Everquest. I also hope it happens soon, because I do not like having to suspend the entire server while this gets worked out. But I can tell you that if I was TMO or FE, I'd tell you guys to go back to the drawing board and try again, because I sure as hell would not be giving up targets I'd been fighting to earn the past year+.

[Daldaen]

In call of duty, generally speaking, you are competing against other players. So not a great comparison. Even then, your inability to log in at all hours or spend 10 hours spamming 1 button... Doesn't hinder your ability to achieve 99% of that stuff. On P99, those inabilities or unwillingness from casual players, does stop you from getting most all raid gear, and epics from dragons/raid mobs. Without paying plat or RMTing for it.

People aren't asking to be handed the gear, just given the chance to fight for it without having to wake up at 3 AM or log on mid afternoon at work. Or track for 24 hours. They just want a chance to be able to log on every week and fight A dragon. Not all 20 raid targets. But one or two.

In what regard are you (as a high end raider) getting buttfucked? You keep VP regardless of what happens, that's 6 dragons every week. And I think most of the plans that have been proposed suggest you would retain over half or about half of the non-VP raid mobs. So you keep the majority of the content split between 2-3 guilds, while the other 8-10 guilds split the other half. I think the time/reward there is fine.

EDIT: Your frenzied example is better, but still off. It has PHers, it isn't poopsocked and it is often uncamped at all hours of the day. I got the camp at like 5PM EST on a weekend a few weeks back for example. All players can have a free shot if they wait a day or two or three. What was the last time that a dragon was alive for several hours during an evening on a weekend or even a weekday? I'm willing to bet (excluding this), it's been many a month.

Or when was the last time when you asked the person killing frenzied to let you know when they were done with the camp. LOL. I'd love to see TMO get a tell from Taken during their Trakanon where TMO replies with "sure! Next Trakanon is all yours". Like that would or has ever happened.

[Mezzmur]

So your CoD guns are contingent on you winning every single match? Or can you still get those guns if you lost every single match you ever played (it would just take longer)? How does you getting guns stop your clan-buddy from getting guns? Also, when you play CoD, you can attack your enemy to reach that objective? Or do the two sides just run at the objective and stand next to it together?

It's fine, bad example and you're not focusing on the point.

Plus, this proposal above in this thread is 110% equitable and should be agreed upon.

I'm a hardcore gamer, I don't love this proposal, I don't even like it that much because it's reserving more mobs that I can't touch in a month. I WANT to go gangbusters on all those mobs and tell you to eat a dick.

But I'm not. I'm suggesting that guilds who want more content take MORE of the raid mobs in a month than I will compete for and the participants of Tier 2/rotation don't have to do more than know the spawn time and show up. It's not perfect for anyone, but it's fair.

In call of duty, generally speaking, you are competing against other players. So not a great comparison. Even then, your inability to log in at all hours or spend 10 hours spamming 1 button... Doesn't hinder your ability to achieve 99% of that stuff. On P99, those inabilities or unwillingness from casual players, does stop you from getting most all raid gear, and epics from dragons/raid mobs. Without paying plat or RMTing for it.

People aren't asking to be handed the gear, just given the chance to fight for it without having to wake up at 3 AM or log on mid afternoon at work. Or track for 24 hours. They just want a chance to be able to log on every week and fight A dragon. Not all 20 raid targets. But one or two.

In what regard are you (as a high end raider) getting buttfucked? You keep VP regardless of what happens, that's 6 dragons every week. And I think most of the plans that have been proposed suggest you would retain over half or about half of the non-VP raid mobs. So you keep the majority of the content split between 2-3 guilds, while the other 8-10 guilds split the other half. I think the time/reward there is fine.

Like I said, you're not focusing on the point. Additionally I said we don't want to get buttfucked, not that we would be. This proposal is more like anal beads than a stright up anal gang bang. Focus on the proposal and provide feedback. Azure Guard has already said that this sounds equitable, hows by you?

[CodyF86]

Just because something takes time and effort doesn't mean you should be proud of it lol.

If any of you ever start hearing me say I'm proud about the effort it takes to track a 7 day raid merb for a potential maximum of 12.95 days or I'm proud about the effort it takes to camp alts at poop mountain someone please come take my computer away from me and stand me in front of some direct sunlight.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Mezzmur]

Just because something takes time and effort doesn't mean you should be proud of it lol.

If any of you ever start hearing me say I'm proud to want to track a 7 day raid mob for a potential maximum of 12.95 days or I'm proud about the effort it takes to camp alts at poop mountain someone please come take my computer away from me and stand me in front of some direct sunlight.

Aaradin
The A-Team

Again, not the point. Azure Guard has already stated in this thread that this seems reasonable. Lets get some thoughts/feedback and less drama. I don't see how this is anything but fair.

[Imslap]

In call of duty, generally speaking, you are competing against other players. So not a great comparison. Even then, your inability to log in at all hours or spend 10 hours spamming 1 button... Doesn't hinder your ability to achieve 99% of that stuff. On P99, those inabilities or unwillingness from casual players, does stop you from getting most all raid gear, and epics from dragons/raid mobs. Without paying plat or RMTing for it.

People aren't asking to be handed the gear, just given the chance to fight for it without having to wake up at 3 AM or log on mid afternoon at work. Or track for 24 hours. They just want a chance to be able to log on every week and fight A dragon. Not all 20 raid targets. But one or two.

In what regard are you (as a high end raider) getting buttfucked? You keep VP regardless of what happens, that's 6 dragons every week. And I think most of the plans that have been proposed suggest you would retain over half or about half of the non-VP raid mobs. So you keep the majority of the content split between 2-3 guilds, while the other 8-10 guilds split the other half. I think the time/reward there is fine.

What you are looking for is instanced raiding. Every single game from World of Warcraft onward offers that experience. Everquest is not instanced, therefore work is required in order to experience all of the content.

While you may think that tracking for 24 hours or waking up at 3 AM is too much work; it is what it takes to compete in a game where your competition is willing and capable to do just that.

What Flippie's proposed solution allows, is removing the three most dedicated player bases from competition for 10 days on the four most valued targets enabling the guilds that have the highest drive to "work" the highest chance for reward. With the remaining 20 days of the month the server is being given a chance to compete with each other on the other raid bosses with no competition from the three premiere raiding guilds.

Whether or not the "Tier 2" guilds choose to compete or rotate mobs is entirely up to them. Just appreciate that your voices have been heard, the "hardcore raiders" are conceding that many of the "Tier 2" raiding guilds do not have the desire to compete on the same level as us and we are offering a generous solution.

[arsenalpow]

For people that missed this exchange in Sirken's Proposal Thread:

In case everyone forgot, the casual guilds REFUSED to pull every dirty trick in the book to get those targets. We refused to DA stall tank, "accidentally" train, leapfrog, FTE snipe, rules lawyer, manipulate logs, ninja loot, buy up hundreds of accounts, etc etc

So PLEASE explain to me again how you'd like to punish casual guilds for adhering to the rules, being good citizens, and saying we refused to "compete." It's an asinine argument. We refused to stoop as low as TMO and FE therefore we (the casuals) just don't care enough. That's bullshit, and every single person on this server knows it's bullshit.

You want to wall off targets for yourselves then do so on the merit of the casuals being unable to kill said targets, oh wait the encounters are fucking easy but your sense of entitlement after months of shitting all over each other has made you blind to the rest of the server.

Fuck you, fuck all this rhetoric. It's a goddamn game and you're a bunch of grown ass children who don't know how to share. It's pathetic. I'm done posting in troll chat. If you want to fucking talk about some proposals you can post there.

[CodyF86]

Again, not the point. Azure Guard has already stated in this thread that this seems reasonable. Lets get some thoughts/feedback and less drama. I don't see how this is anything but fair.


I was replying to what corova quoted; I just didn't feel like quoting it to fill up half
a forum page.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Rhambuk]

While you may think that tracking for 24 hours or waking up at 3 AM is too much work; it is what it takes to compete in a game where your competition is willing and capable to do just that.


why variance needs to be removed, this "competition" is far far to intense for the average player. Youll say too bad go elsewhere but this was NEVER everquest this is p99 created competition.

[Splorf22]

What you are looking for is instanced raiding. Every single game from World of Warcraft onward offers that experience. Everquest is not instanced, therefore work is required in order to experience all of the content.

No, that work is the result of 96 hour variance which has nothing to do with classic Everquest.

[koros]

I don't raid or even play that much, but I've been watching it unfold on the forums. The ideas articulated in this thread seem like an extremely good compromise for the casuals.

To demand a rotation or closer to a 50/50 split is massive hypocrisy. TMO/IB/FE were beating the other guilds pretty much all of the time. They're giving concessions they don't have to. Expecting an even split would be like working at McDonalds, expecting everyone to have to pay a 100% tax rate, and then having all wealth distributed equally.

Also cut variance to 12-24 hours obviously. That will help everyone and allow mobs to constantly change what time of day they spawn.

[Imslap]

why variance needs to be removed, this "competition" is far far to intense for the average player. Youll say too bad go elsewhere but this was NEVER everquest this is p99 created competition.

I, and I feel comfortably speaking for all the "hardcore players", hate variance more than you will ever understand. No one enjoys spending that much time tracking. No one enjoys waking up at 3AM to raid.

But, I (and again most "hardcore players") DO enjoy raiding and killing the mobs. If this is the name of the game, then I will put my best foot forward to win.

[Rhambuk]

They're giving concessions they don't have to.

you make them sound generous and that casuals should be on the ground licking their boots.

[Alarti0001]

So PLEASE explain to me again how you'd like to punish casual guilds for adhering to the rules, being good citizens, and saying we refused to "compete." It's an asinine argument. We refused to stoop as low as TMO and FE therefore we (the casuals) just don't care enough. That's bullshit, and every single person on this server knows it's bullshit.

You want to wall off targets for yourselves then do so on the merit of the casuals being unable to kill said targets, oh wait the encounters are fucking easy but your sense of entitlement after months of shitting all over each other has made you blind to the rest of the server.

Fuck you, fuck all this rhetoric. It's a goddamn game and you're a bunch of grown ass children who don't know how to share. It's pathetic. I'm done posting in troll chat. If you want to fucking talk about some proposals you can post there.

Your argument would have merit if you competed and then weren't involved in training etc. You didn't even show up. Likely if you did you would have been called out many times just due to inexperience or ineptitude.

How are casuals being punished? Can you really speak to a sense of entitlement?

Your attitude is not at all conducive to a healthy raid scene.

[Daldaen]

What you are looking for is instanced raiding. Every single game from World of Warcraft onward offers that experience. Everquest is not instanced, therefore work is required in order to experience all of the content.
What I'm looking for, is Velious.

[Mezzmur]

In case everyone forgot, the casual guilds REFUSED to pull every dirty trick in the book to get those targets. We refused to DA stall tank, "accidentally" train, leapfrog, FTE snipe, rules lawyer, manipulate logs, ninja loot, buy up hundreds of accounts, etc etc

So PLEASE explain to me again how you'd like to punish casual guilds for adhering to the rules, being good citizens, and saying we refused to "compete." It's an asinine argument. We refused to stoop as low as TMO and FE therefore we (the casuals) just don't care enough. That's bullshit, and every single person on this server knows it's bullshit.

You want to wall off targets for yourselves then do so on the merit of the casuals being unable to kill said targets, oh wait the encounters are fucking easy but your sense of entitlement after months of shitting all over each other has made you blind to the rest of the server.

Fuck you, fuck all this rhetoric. It's a goddamn game and you're a bunch of grown ass children who don't know how to share. It's pathetic. I'm done posting in troll chat. If you want to fucking talk about some proposals you can post there.

I'd like to hear your feedback on the Sirken Hybrid. Ignore the trolls. Seriously, I don't see how it's unfair.

I realize you feel punish, but this isn't about the past, this is about now and moving forward.

[Rhambuk]

I, and I feel comfortably speaking for all the "hardcore players", hate variance more than you will ever understand. No one enjoys spending that much time tracking. No one enjoys waking up at 3AM to raid.

But, I (and again most "hardcore players") DO enjoy raiding and killing the mobs. If this is the name of the game, then I will put my best foot forward to win.

I know you didn't ask for the variance and it just pushed you to do ridiculous things, but its because you do those ridiculous things that the variance doesn't work.

[Galelor]

I have read pretty much all the arguments related to the needs/wants/ideas surrounding casuals, hard cores, instances, variance, FTE, etc. Everyone has valid points, and we all want to enjoy what we love about EQ.

The only way to make everyone happy: Just leave everything close to the way it is now with some minor changes to clear up the training and also make each raid mob have an instance with a 2 week lockout timer that is guild wide and each instance only lasts 2 hours. Hard core guilds can still race for spawns and casual guilds can still get to kill content with their guild. Hard core guilds reap the rewards of 2 spawns a month via instance + competition and the casuals will actually get to raid without getting trained and shit talked to death. Everyone gets to play the game the way they enjoy it. The downside is that the Devs have to do a little work to get stuff set up and keep an eye out that instancing doesn't /pwn the server, and content is not classic in a very slight way yet it makes the game playable for everyone.

This might even push guilds into splitting up a little bit into more classic type guild sizes...

Just a thought.

[Mezzmur]

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

[williestargell]

70%+ of the server population has agreed to Rogeans (GM proposal) - why is this not over?

[Fael]

pras sirken.

Oh, and williestargell who said: "70%+ of the server population has agreed to Rogeans (GM proposal) - why is this not over?"

Rogean also said that he wants the server to agree. What would you say if the Staff gave you the choice between something like THIS proposal and going back to the way things were before? I would imagine that you would take this proposal gladly.

If staff put that as the ultimatum--put the bargaining power back where it should be as per Classic Everquest--then these negotiations would be over. The large guilds have given up more than anyone would have imagined, they can't go back on what they've offered. The only ones holding out now are the casuals who want more more more, and to destroy what makes Classic Everquest great.


Dolic

[Bruman]

Hey guys, Vanilla Gods and Kunark launch content are top tier, makes sense. Nevermind that they have epics (which is mostly resolved with planar revamps in Velious).

Seriously though - VP is top tier from a content perspective. That's it. After that it's about having a raid scene that lets both styles do their thing.

Tier 1 - VP and hardcore tracking/alting/socking/whatever, go nuts
Tier 2 - Probably a rotation (or close to it) with a time limit on engaging

Not to mention - everyone but FE is behind Rogean's plan. TMO was some smaller changes made, and that's it. This is really just a circle jerk of FE and Sirken and Deru.

[Rhambuk]

70%+ of the server population has agreed to Rogeans (GM proposal) - why is this not over?

They don't want to make a rash decision.

besides a few days wait will be good for people. Honestly if an agreement was 100% agreed on today I would still like to see raid suspension for at least a week just to let things settle

[Alarti0001]

Hey guys, Vanilla Gods and Kunark launch content are top tier, makes sense. Nevermind that they have epics (which is mostly resolved with planar revamps in Velious).

Seriously though - VP is top tier from a content perspective. That's it. After that it's about having a raid scene that lets both styles do their thing.

Tier 1 - VP and hardcore tracking/alting/socking/whatever, go nuts
Tier 2 - Probably a rotation (or close to it) with a time limit on engaging

Not to mention - everyone but FE is behind Rogean's plan. TMO was some smaller changes made, and that's it. This is really just a circle jerk of FE and Sirken and Deru.

Top tier is where you find the most competitive raid guilds. I.E. PD, Trak, VS, CT.


You won't find too much competition for Nexona you are more than welcome to move Nex to a tier 2 target. Also Silverwing, maybe Xygoz, and Druushk.

-Your not to mention is out dated.

[ElanoraBryght]

In case everyone forgot, the casual guilds REFUSED to pull every dirty trick in the book to get those targets. We refused to DA stall tank, "accidentally" train, leapfrog, FTE snipe, rules lawyer, manipulate logs, ninja loot, buy up hundreds of accounts, etc etc

So PLEASE explain to me again how you'd like to punish casual guilds for adhering to the rules, being good citizens, and saying we refused to "compete." It's an asinine argument. We refused to stoop as low as TMO and FE therefore we (the casuals) just don't care enough. That's bullshit, and every single person on this server knows it's bullshit.


This.
(Although I'd call it a circular argument.)

[Mezzmur]

Top tier is where you find the most competitive raid guilds. I.E. PD, Trak, VS, CT.


You won't find too much competition for Nexona you are more than welcome to move Nex to a tier 2 target. Also Silverwing, maybe Xygoz, and Druushk.

-Your not to mention is out dated.

SW is mine, Been waiting on bard lute for months.

[Imslap]

Hey guys, Vanilla Gods and Kunark launch content are top tier, makes sense. Nevermind that they have epics (which is mostly resolved with planar revamps in Velious).

Seriously though - VP is top tier from a content perspective. That's it. After that it's about having a raid scene that lets both styles do their thing.

Tier 1 - VP and hardcore tracking/alting/socking/whatever, go nuts
Tier 2 - Probably a rotation (or close to it) with a time limit on engaging

Not to mention - everyone but FE is behind Rogean's plan. TMO was some smaller changes made, and that's it. This is really just a circle jerk of FE and Sirken and Deru.

Please note that Flippie and I are both members of TMO, not FE.

[Hitpoint]

Hey guys, Vanilla Gods and Kunark launch content are top tier, makes sense. Nevermind that they have epics (which is mostly resolved with planar revamps in Velious).

Seriously though - VP is top tier from a content perspective. That's it. After that it's about having a raid scene that lets both styles do their thing.

Tier 1 - VP and hardcore tracking/alting/socking/whatever, go nuts
Tier 2 - Probably a rotation (or close to it) with a time limit on engaging

Not to mention - everyone but FE is behind Rogean's plan. TMO was some smaller changes made, and that's it. This is really just a circle jerk of FE and Sirken and Deru.

Rogean's plan is literally the worst proposal for us. I've talked to IB and they want another. I find it very hard to believe anyone in TMO would accept this without major changes. And the plan is completely and totally unacceptable to FE. Our leader has posted such. I don't even know why anyone is still posting in the thread. It should go the way of all the other proposals in the past few days, which are not even relevant anymore. As far as I can tell the only reason people are even still discussing it is that Rogean posted it in the raid chat section, and nobody else can voice how completely terrible it is except the officers who are trying to maintain composure.

It's never going to happen. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. Next proposal please.

[Alarti0001]

SW is mine, Been waiting on bard lute for months.

22-23 days !

[Droog007]

Raid Scene
It continues to be an aggravating realization among CSR staff that 10% of the server population causes 90% of the problems. We are all for competition, but it needs to be fair competition. We are also all here for the same thing, to experience classic Everquest. The same guild monopolizing raid content for 2 years that they might not even need anymore is ridiculous, just to block other guilds from the chance of gearing up to take on the same end game content.

I was thinking to myself the other day and I came to ask myself.. Are we providing this server to give people the arena to compete to such bitter extremes that it has resorted to taking every absolute measure to be victorious, or are we here to provide a classic Everquest experience for everyone to enjoy?


Has Rogean secretly retracted this? It really does not seem that Sirken and Derubael are on board with this sentiment... I don't mean to pit staff against staff, but please let me know if I've misinterpreted this somehow.

Shit's gotten REAL topheavy - it's pretty tough for us casual scum to get any fulfillment from the game. If you guys don't want a bunch of legislation, back the fuck down and let some mobs live... I dunno... a few hours? You know, like it was on classic. It's not impossible to help EMULATE the classic experience with a dash of your own restraint.

But it seems we're well past that... the 90% gonna use the tools they were given. Get ready for a long winter (and I don't mean Velious).

[Fael]

"there are tons of MMOs with instanced raids and triggered bosses, EQ is not one of those games. not having instances or triggered bosses was one of the things that set Classic EQ apart from all the crap games that exist today. i know that the staff doesn't want a rotation, and would prefer to see racing/competing for the targets."

Sirken the Great

[Mezzmur]

This.
(Although I'd call it a circular argument.)

Not helpful. Focus on future, not past, we've already discussed this and it's about moving forward not QQing about what has happen.

----

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

[Hitpoint]

In case everyone forgot, the casual guilds REFUSED to pull every dirty trick in the book to get those targets. We refused to DA stall tank, "accidentally" train, leapfrog, FTE snipe, rules lawyer, manipulate logs, ninja loot, buy up hundreds of accounts, etc etc

Hey Chest buddy. Raiding actually isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Those incidents all happen but are few and far between. This is for you and everyone else who choose not to put in effort to kill raid mobs, but keep referencing all this "toxic" shit that happens and how you're morally above all that.

You know how shit usually goes? Batphone goes out, we log into VS pit, TMO has FTE and kill the mob, we go park at the next target and log off. I'm not going to search for it, but this morning I read a post from one of the GMs, that 80% of engages go perfectly smoothly and don't involve any of this drama.

I know this is literally the only argument that you (and many many others) have for why you want to do nothing, and still get free shots at mobs. But it's been debunked.

[Rhambuk]

80% of engages go perfectly smoothly with tmo engaging and moving on.


That's a problem...

[Fael]

Shit's gotten REAL topheavy - it's pretty tough for us casual scum to get any fulfillment from the game. If you guys don't want a bunch of legislation, back the fuck down and let some mobs live... I dunno... a few hours? You know, like it was on classic. It's not impossible to help EMULATE the classic experience with a dash of your own restraint.


Droog: If every 8-10 days, IB/FE/TMO stepped aside, you would have the opportunity to kill a whole host of mobs you previously believed to be out of your range for the last 3 years.

The tier 2 guilds compete like mad for ragefire, this time you'd be competing for 10x as many stuff. Why are people so unwilling to except that?

When you put this in context with the fact that velious is coming out in 3 months or less, its not like your really going to get much from a rotation on stuff youll see once or twice a year. Why not enjoy the drastically improved raid scene?

Dolic

[Exmo]

we log into VS pit

And there's something else that needs to be stopped, while we're on the topic.

Ban any toon that gets camped at a raid mob.

[Imslap]

Hey Chest buddy. Raiding actually isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Those incidents all happen but are few and far between. You and everyone else who choose not to put in effort to kill raid mobs keep referencing all this "toxic" shit that happens and how you're morally above all that.

You know how shit usually goes? Batphone goes out, we log into VS pit, TMO has FTE and kill the mob, we go park at the next target and log off. I'm not going to search for it, but this morning I read a post from one of the GMs, that 80% of engages go perfectly smoothly and don't involve any of this drama.

I know this is literally the only argument that you (and many many others) have for why you want to do nothing, and still get free shots at mobs. But it's been debunked.

Or FE/IB has FTE and TMO moves on to the next target and log out.

+100 Hitpoint the Logical

[falkun]

Not helpful. Focus on future, not past, we've already discussed this and it's about moving forward not QQing about what has happen.

----
Sadly Sirken's whole proposal is based on the past:
you have to have something, before u can actually give it up.
According to Rogean, we were to be creating equitable solutions for the future:
I was thinking to myself the other day and I came to ask myself.. Are we providing this server to give people the arena to compete to such bitter extremes that it has resorted to taking every absolute measure to be victorious, or are we here to provide a classic Everquest experience for everyone to enjoy?

A lot of you make fun of it in your own terms, but it really does come down to fighting over very old content.

Either way, we're tired of the constant bickering, the training, the ninja looting, and all the other bullshit that's going on. So here's what we're going to do.

Starting today and then evaluated when Velious is released the CSR staff will be keeping track of how the raid guilds are treating eachother. If we do not see a significant improvement in the behavior of the raiding guilds and how they treat eachother, Velious will be released without raid content. To be clear, we want an enjoyable raid scene for everyone, not just one or two guilds. This means working together to figure out a compromise when racing for mobs, and working with smaller guilds to let them have a chance at mobs you don't absolutely need for gearing main characters.

Don't think that this means you can continue shitting on each other and just not petition, the staff will still be watching..

If a proposal favors the hardcores because they have everything to lose, they are basing the agreement on the past. If a proposal favors the casuals, they are not creating an equitable solution for everyone on the server.

[Rhambuk]

the fact that velious is coming out in 3 months or less

whaaaaat since when?

[Alarti0001]

And there's something else that needs to be stopped, while we're on the topic.

Ban any toon that gets camped at a raid mob.

read sirken's proposal since you are posting on this topic.

[Mezzmur]

Sadly Sirken's whole proposal is based on the past:

According to Rogean, we were to be creating equitable solutions for the future:


If a proposal favors the hardcores because they have everything to lose, they are basing the agreement on the past. If a proposal favors the casuals, they are not creating an equitable solution for everyone on the server.

Did you read my proposal? How is it not equitable to promote both styles and share mobs? Please tell.

[Alarti0001]

Sadly Sirken's whole proposal is based on the past:

According to Rogean, we were to be creating equitable solutions for the future:


If a proposal favors the hardcores because they have everything to lose, they are basing the agreement on the past. If a proposal favors the casuals, they are not creating an equitable solution for everyone on the server.

This proposal favors the casuals too..... very greatly.

[Fael]

Deajay,

Why should the staff abandon Classic Everquest raiding, recreate a crazy ass system, for 3 months worth of raiding?

The whole point of this is to create a system where tier one guilds don't "monopolize" content.

Opening up a large percentage of raid mobs to exclusively be had by casual tier 2 guilds for 1/3 of the month is a fantastic opportunity for you guys. You guys are just too greedy and shortsighted to see it.

If you can't accept it, things should just go back to the way things were, and then bind TMO/FE and any other raid guild to fulfill the obligations of the reasonable proposals that we have already put forth.

Im sorry, you only had bargaining power because it was graciously given to you by the staff, and to the extent that you misread or misinterpreted Rogean's words.

If you were smart, and looking ahead, you would realize that you would have a strong argument to extend this sort of agreement into velious where you would have free access for 1/3 of the month to go after all the tier 2 targets in velious. But no, you can't look ahead, and are stuck in squabling over 3 months of rotated mobs, of which you will personally only see a small percentage of.

Dolic

[Exmo]

read sirken's proposal since you are posting on this topic.

Did. I was just commenting on the fact that it was posted as if the status quo wasn't an issue, since 80% of the raids happen like that.

Wasn't trying to derail, just saying that logging in the camped force isn't causing problems is backwards. It IS the problem (Among others).

I actually Like Mez's modified version of this, but I can see why FE/TMO are less receptive.

[Rhambuk]

Fael




Velious
Speaking of velious, I know you guys have been asking for an update. I plan to make a more accurate announcement at some point but Velious development is proceeding well and we may be opening Beta within a few months. Stay tuned.

I only bring this up because you've mentioned it twice now, velious release in 3 months.
not to be a dick just to let ya know )

[Fael]

Fair enough. Beta release is velious release as far as im concerned :)

Dolic

[Rhambuk]

lol it will be glorious without a doubt!

[falkun]

Dolic,
I am under the impression the raid agreement will be carried over into Velious. Why would you pour a shitty foundation now to put the house of Velious upon when you can lay a good foundation for a sturdy Velious? Or would you rather CSR raid suspends everyone again at Velious release so we can hash this out all over again? Now I'll concede you and I have different definitions of a "good foundation", but I hope we can both agree we'd only like to do it once.

Flippie,
Where did I discuss your proposal (especially in that quote)? You state focusing on the past is not good for negotiating. I'm saying tier2 is not here for a "pound of flesh." As Loraen said in the Raid forums, hardcores want 100% FFA, casuals want 100% rotation. A true compromise is the Rogean proposal at 50/50, two separate little playgrounds. The Divinity proposal, especially with excluded VP, is stacked in favor of the hardcores, but still with two little playgrounds.

Everything I'm seeing from the hardcore camp entails "competition." The casuals do not want competition, especially at the level historically defined by TMO. As a casual, I feel like every raid proposal from hardcores is attempting to justify their ideal of competition by forcing it on the casuals. I feel suppression of the casuals is what hardcores want, it provides the justification for the inordinate amount of time spent in the game. Deru is right, it is work, but its not "Classic" work, it was artificially created by Project1999-specific mechanics.

[Droog007]

Hey Chest buddy. Raiding actually isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Those incidents all happen but are few and far between. This is for you and everyone else who choose not to put in effort to kill raid mobs, but keep referencing all this "toxic" shit that happens and how you're morally above all that.

You know how shit usually goes? Batphone goes out, we log into VS pit, TMO has FTE and kill the mob, we go park at the next target and log off. I'm not going to search for it, but this morning I read a post from one of the GMs, that 80% of engages go perfectly smoothly and don't involve any of this drama.

I know this is literally the only argument that you (and many many others) have for why you want to do nothing, and still get free shots at mobs. But it's been debunked.

Yes, I imagine things go very smoothly once you've spent several months pulling the wings off the butterflies.

Most of us checked out of your stupid "competition" after a very brief exposure to it.

What did you win, really? Now you're finding out what baggage it came with.

[Mezzmur]

You didn't, I'm directing you back to the proposal as that's the basis for the thread. I see tons of rhetoric and discussion about the past and how being good was good but being bad was bad. But nothing about how you feel about this proposal. It supports PNP, splits mobs up fairly.

[Fael]

Deajay,

Im not sure how rogean's statement of intent: to let casuals have items that tier 1 guilds "don't absolutely need" fit into velious raiding. If youre suggesting that FE/TMO/IB's consent to casual proposals contemplates that casuals will get 50% of king tormax spawns on day 1, then I think we can all agree you are asking quite a bit more than we ever thought.

Dolic

[mattkwi]

Agreed. So you make further provisions. Two or three hours if you killed target last, 1 or two hour wait if you killed that target the time before that. That leaves every third spawn of every target uncontested for at least an hour or two. If variance was removed this would be huge. Add in random repops and the server gains even more
.

Again, the problem was the fighting at the top. It wasn't ever about smaller guilds not getting targets. So staggered engages solves this problem. If GMs want the players to work it out, then let them. Naturally, just like on the real servers, guilds who could and wanted to kill the content, controlled the content. If another guild wanted access they took it by force, alliance, or politics. Not Verant or Sony handing it to them. If the GMs want to control the out come then do just that. Decide on how you want it and implement it. If you want the players to work it out, then let it work itself out. Taken has taken many targets whenever they wanted them because they wanted them. It is possible.

There's no concessions to be made. No one owns anything except the GMs. But TMO, FE, IB are the only ones being asked to give up something they control at the moment. Fine, mandate they give up some targets, but as the majority contenders, let them decided amongst them how to do this. Smaller guilds can't claim
To give concessions when they have nothing to lose. Form and alliance and take a larger piece of the pie, then you can barter.

Only 5 members of the U.N. Have veto power. Not every country in the UN has the same power. A small guild with little influence of raiding should have little influence in the divvying of targets.

Staggered engages. And guilds being responsible for their own future And if you truly want the friendliness and joy brought from the first week of the 'two hour' rule week then kill variance and add repops along with these two staggered engages.


Or if you don't want the guilds to work things out naturally then just decide for them. It's done on other matters and can be done here. Not the right way to go IMO, but saying let the players choose but trying to control the out come
By forcing compromise is doing more harm than good to guild relations.


Or Implement GM approved Sirken play nice raid policy and call it a day.

[Hitpoint]

Everything I'm seeing from the hardcore camp entails "competition." The casuals do not want competition, especially at the level historically defined by TMO. As a casual, I feel like every raid proposal from hardcores is attempting to justify their ideal of competition by forcing it on the casuals. I feel suppression of the casuals is what hardcores want, it provides the justification for the inordinate amount of time spent in the game. Deru is right, it is work, but its not "Classic" work, it was artificially created by Project1999-specific mechanics.

To me, a casual is someone who doesn't have the time or motivation to be so heavily committed to a game. To most of the people on this server, "casual" seems to be anyone not in a top raiding guild. I think the use of the words casual and hardcore are ridiculous at this point.

"Casuals" do not want competition? No, players who do not want competition, do not want competition. We have a vast majority of "casuals" in tier 1 guilds. That is, players with families and lives and responsibilities. They choose to spend their EQ time tracking or raiding rather than leveling alts, farming, or doing whatever the people that YOU call "casuals" do.

I play this game A LOT. But I've never had more than 30k in the bank. You should ask some of your "casuals" how much plat they have. The ones who can afford fungi tunics, hiero cloaks and epic MQs. I see TONS of people who are in "casual" guilds that are completely decked out in best in slot purchased gear. I have one level 60 and one alt that is 57. I bet a lot of the "casuals" in your guild have much more than that.

Nothing about being "casual" stops you from raiding. Certainly not the ability to devote time to a game. The decision to spend your EQ time elsewhere is what stops you from raiding. This means you value one aspect of the game over a different one. If you want a rotation on raids, then why shouldn't I ask for an official rotation in crypt camp or chardok aoe or whatever it is that you spend your EQ time doing? It makes just about as much sense.

[Tanthallas]

Dolic,
I am under the impression the raid agreement will be carried over into Velious. Why would you pour a shitty foundation now to put the house of Velious upon when you can lay a good foundation for a sturdy Velious? Or would you rather CSR raid suspends everyone again at Velious release so we can hash this out all over again? Now I'll concede you and I have different definitions of a "good foundation", but I hope we can both agree we'd only like to do it once.

Flippie,
Where did I discuss your proposal (especially in that quote)? You state focusing on the past is not good for negotiating. I'm saying tier2 is not here for a "pound of flesh." As Loraen said in the Raid forums, hardcores want 100% FFA, casuals want 100% rotation. A true compromise is the Rogean proposal at 50/50, two separate little playgrounds. The Divinity proposal, especially with excluded VP, is stacked in favor of the hardcores, but still with two little playgrounds.

Everything I'm seeing from the hardcore camp entails "competition." The casuals do not want competition, especially at the level historically defined by TMO. As a casual, I feel like every raid proposal from hardcores is attempting to justify their ideal of competition by forcing it on the casuals. I feel suppression of the casuals is what hardcores want, it provides the justification for the inordinate amount of time spent in the game. Deru is right, it is work, but its not "Classic" work, it was artificially created by Project1999-specific mechanics.

Seriously, for the last time - my proposal does not subject anyone to unwanted competition. It is progression based and structured in terms of tiers wherein guilds can move between tiers extremely easily. There would be tiered rotations and the tiers themselves would not be difficult to bounce between. There would be no tier locking, and guilds could opt out of tier1 to be in tier 2 at the beginning of every month. Both tiers would have half the month of rotating within their respective tiers, and half the month of complete FFA.

You and the rainbow crew, however, did not want to talk about that. You wanted to talk about any possible off the wall and completely erroneous interpretation of it that would limit you in relation to 'us'. Any weight you '7/9' heroes may have had is completely and utterly destroyed at this point because the people paying attention are pretty well aware of the true colors of your intent of 'negotiating'.

FE is fully behind Sirkens proposal at this point, because there is no sense in trying to 'negotiate' with people who think they have some kind of leverage that they do not. Stop being delusional and we can maybe avoid going back to how things used to be.

[Hitpoint]

Most of us checked out of your stupid "competition" after a very brief exposure to it.


Then you don't like raiding. I do. Lets agree to disagree.

What did you win, really? Now you're finding out what baggage it came with.

I had fun.

Baggage? The only thing I hate about this is how far it has been allowed to go. I was fine when our very first proposal was drafted and posted on our guild forums. The one that gave up lots of mobs every month, and attempted to make the server's raid scene better for everyone else. This all happened the day before it was announced that we had to do this under threat of suspension. Yes that's right; FE officers, IB officers, and TMO officers agreed to that proposal on their own, without GMs forcing them to. Now every other guild is just trying to get as much as they possibly can with disregard to what's fair.

[Arteker]

To me, a casual is someone who doesn't have the time or motivation to be so heavily committed to a game. To most of the people on this server, "casual" seems to be anyone not in a top raiding guild. I think the use of the words casual and hardcore are ridiculous at this point.

"Casuals" do not want competition? No, players who do not want competition, do not want competition. We have a vast majority of "casuals" in tier 1 guilds. That is, players with families and lives and responsibilities. They choose to spend their EQ time tracking or raiding rather than leveling alts, farming, or doing whatever the people that YOU call "casuals" do.

I play this game A LOT. But I've never had more than 30k in the bank. You should ask some of your "casuals" and ask how much they have. The ones who can afford fungi tunics, hiero cloaks and epic MQs. I see TONS of people who are in "casual" guilds that are completely decked out in best in slot purchased gear.

Nothing about being "casual" stops you from raiding. Certainly not the ability to devote time to a game. The decision to spend your EQ time elsewhere is what stops you from raiding. This means you value one aspect of the game over a different one. If you want a rotation on raids, then why shouldn't I ask for an official rotation in crypt camp or chardok aoe or whatever it is that you spend your EQ time doing? It makes just about as much sense.
agree 100%.

Btw whats the difference btw mass pps farming to get decked in gear and raidin for it both very time consuming .
Back in the day tmo have a hugue proposal of a insane ammount of cash by one of the main defender tier 2 guild about purchasing one robe from pd.

the offer was there as a raider i feel insulted by the fact someone got time to farm and offer 1 millon plat for a item and then cry in forums about casual vs raider people .

[Mezzmur]

Then you don't like raiding. I do. Lets agree to disagree.



I had fun.

Baggage? The only thing I hate about this is how far it has been allowed to go. I was fine when our very first proposal was drafted and posted on our guild forums. The one that gave up lots of mobs every month, and attempted to make the server's raid scene better for everyone else. This was the day before Sirken posted that we had to do this under threat of suspension. Yea, our officers IB officers, and TMO officers agreed to that proposal on their own, without GMs forcing them. Now every other guild is just trying to get as much as they possibly can with disregard to what's fair.

Fair != 50/50 Split (yes) ///////////// Fair == 50/50 (no)

That seems to be the problem. Deru & Sirken tried to address that, but was scoffed by several individuals in the raid discussion forums.

[Rhambuk]

Then you don't like raiding. I do. Lets agree to disagree.


It's not really fair to say someone doesn't like raiding because of the p99 raid scene, its not even remotely close to classic. For someone brand new to the server reading that its supposed to be as classic as possible and then seeing how the raid scene works it would blow their mind.

its a mess....it was NEVER supposed to be like this and its why there's a suspension right now to try and fix it.

[Droog007]

To me, a casual is someone who doesn't have the time or motivation to be so heavily committed to a game. To most of the people on this server, "casual" seems to be anyone not in a top raiding guild. I think the use of the words casual and hardcore are ridiculous at this point.

"Casuals" do not want competition? No, players who do not want competition, do not want competition. We have a vast majority of "casuals" in tier 1 guilds. That is, players with families and lives and responsibilities. They choose to spend their EQ time tracking or raiding rather than leveling alts, farming, or doing whatever the people that YOU call "casuals" do.

I play this game A LOT. But I've never had more than 30k in the bank. You should ask some of your "casuals" and ask how much they have. The ones who can afford fungi tunics, hiero cloaks and epic MQs. I see TONS of people who are in "casual" guilds that are completely decked out in best in slot purchased gear.

Nothing about being "casual" stops you from raiding. Certainly not the ability to devote time to a game. The decision to spend your EQ time elsewhere is what stops you from raiding. This means you value one aspect of the game over a different one. If you want a rotation on raids, then why shouldn't I ask for an official rotation in crypt camp or chardok aoe or whatever it is that you spend your EQ time doing? It makes just about as much sense.

That's all well and good - and it warms my heart to hear how you're so fucking poor.

However - the simple fact is that these "hardcore" efforts have created a game that almost nobody actually wants to play (and most simply refuse), and creates headache for the staff. This much is known. The hardcore wouldn't soften up by choice ... so now it's time for a cold shower.

[Autotune]

You guys are getting closer and closer to what I proposed.

I give it another day or two.

[Alarti0001]

Deajay,

Im not sure how rogean's statement of intent: to let casuals have items that tier 1 guilds "don't absolutely need" fit into velious raiding. If youre suggesting that FE/TMO/IB's consent to casual proposals contemplates that casuals will get 50% of king tormax spawns on day 1, then I think we can all agree you are asking quite a bit more than we ever thought.

Dolic

This^

None of these proposals should carry on to velious. They are designed to alleviate the tension of a 3 year kunark grind. Velious solves most of these problems by itself.

[Fael]

On that note. I think sirken's proposal should include tier 2 guilds abstaining from fungi king, crypt, HS south and east, and rage fire during the first 8 days of the month!!!

Dolic

[JayN]

give it all to casuals theyll burn out in a month; then the alphas can go back to shit slinging for pixels

GG


plz velious! best thing about p99 atm is watching abbacab trains

[Hitpoint]

That's all well and good - and it warms my heart to hear how you're so fucking poor.


I give zero shits about plat. It all goes toward buying ports and rezes and peridots pretty much. So I can do other things conveniently. I don't farm money because I choose not to. I much prefer doing other things in EQ. That's my whole point. Other people do care about plat and stuff that they can buy. It's a difference of play-style. One that I'm okay with. I give up something in favor of something else. It seems many in the "non raider" scene are not okay with this, and it's illogical.

[Autotune]

best thing about p99 ever is watching abbacab trains

fixed

[Buriedpast]

Hey Chest buddy. Raiding actually isn't as bad as you make it out to be. Those incidents all happen but are few and far between. This is for you and everyone else who choose not to put in effort to kill raid mobs, but keep referencing all this "toxic" shit that happens and how you're morally above all that.

You know how shit usually goes? Batphone goes out, we log into VS pit, TMO has FTE and kill the mob, we go park at the next target and log off. I'm not going to search for it, but this morning I read a post from one of the GMs, that 80% of engages go perfectly smoothly and don't involve any of this drama.

I know this is literally the only argument that you (and many many others) have for why you want to do nothing, and still get free shots at mobs. But it's been debunked.

Rapid fire keyboard or software macros will do that.... What was it, same person on 4 vs's against some FE/IB with like 20ping tab clicking.

[Mezzmur]

Rapid fire keyboard or software macros will do that.... What was it, same person on 4 vs's against some FE/IB with like 20ping tab clicking.

Oh baby, I've transcended into mythical state. This is great!

[Uteunayr]

To me, a casual is someone who doesn't have the time or motivation to be so heavily committed to a game. To most of the people on this server, "casual" seems to be anyone not in a top raiding guild. I think the use of the words casual and hardcore are ridiculous at this point.

"Casuals" do not want competition? No, players who do not want competition, do not want competition. We have a vast majority of "casuals" in tier 1 guilds. That is, players with families and lives and responsibilities. They choose to spend their EQ time tracking or raiding rather than leveling alts, farming, or doing whatever the people that YOU call "casuals" do.

You see, to me, that's not a casual. And this comes down to why casual is a difficult term. A casual is a person, in my view, that wants an enjoyable raiding experience independent of the toxic nature that comes with cutthroat competition. I have played in hardcore guilds in a variety of different MMOs in my time, and I came away not enjoying it. It always felt like a job. I wasn't doing it to be a part of a community, or part of a group of tight-knit raiders, I was doing it because it was my job in the guild to pick up pixels.

That's not enough for me. I am a casual because I like a laid back atmosphere, one that is inclusive to more people. I love teaching new players, so much so I wrote a huge damn guide on necromancer soloing for the sole purpose of teaching new players how to necromancer while they level up, learning each new trick as they go. I don't like being in places where the minimum requirement to be in the guild is to be at the top tier of skill, at the top tier of gearing, and all that jank. I like seeing the journey people take from weak, to strong. Hardcore focuses more on getting the results of the kill, rather than the journey to it, and in that way, it encourages you to already be fully prepared to raid, already be fully prepped gear wise. That is why I have always aspired to find casual raiding guilds that can still produce results. They are out there, they do exist. But they are casual, but can produce semi-hardcore results.

I love to teach, I love to interact with people, and I love competition in a non-toxic way. Friendly competition is fine, but that doesn't happen when you have people that are ideologically polarized interacting in the same space, as shown by Haas (2007) in Ideological Origins. Casuals still can enjoy competition, we just see far too much negativity and conflict at the core of hardcore raiding. We want competition that is friendly, among friendly people. That's what raiding has been like for the last two weeks due to the agreement, and it has been, handily, the best couple of weeks I've ever had in EQ.

I feel I work damn hard, not only in my guild, but with a variety of people around the server. I have the goal of one day seeing my Necromancer epic, and not having to buy the parts from an upper tier guild. I want to be able to destroy CT with a group of friends, loot a Slime Blood, turn that shit in, and know that it was awarded to me for my hard work, and I'd like to do that without selling out my principles to an environment I find to be toxic. That would go against my principles, and against my fun. This is a game after all, and fun is kind of what it is about. I am not saying people who like hardcore competition are wrong, just that it isn't the type of atmosphere a person like me wants to play with in a game.

But that's just me. That's my brand of casual. There's many others out there in everyone's mind.

[Rhambuk]

Friendly Competition

http://gifs.gifbin.com/112010/1290455599_sportsmanship-fail.gif

[Hitpoint]

I feel I work damn hard, not only in my guild, but with a variety of people around the server. I have the goal of one day seeing my Necromancer epic, and not having to buy the parts from an upper tier guild. I want to be able to destroy CT with a group of friends, loot a Slime Blood, turn that shit in, and know that it was awarded to me for my hard work, and I'd like to do that without selling out my principles to a toxic environment, struggling through it until I earn my epic. This is a game after all.

But that's just me. That's my brand of casual.

Good post. I quoted this part because I felt exactly the same way. Even if I had 1,000,000 plat I still wouldn't have bought soul leech for my epic. I wanted to kill CT for it.

Many, many people have this conception that the raid scene is completely "toxic" because these huge drama posts about FTE sniping and trains get posted in RNF. They get a lot of attention, and all this stuff happens. But for the most part raid encounters are not like that. There probably isn't as much drama or rule breaking as you think. So many boss mobs get killed every week, without rnf drama. Some encounters will always be messy. Anything in Hate or Fear can involve training, and a lot of it. That's the nature of those zones, and it's usually not on purpose. Aside from this, most engages go smoothly even with both guilds trying their hardest to win. What I'm saying is, the raid scene can be very messy, but in my opinion it isn't actually THAT bad.

[Thana8088]

I feel I work damn hard, not only in my guild, but with a variety of people around the server. I have the goal of one day seeing my Necromancer epic, and not having to buy the parts from an upper tier guild. I want to be able to destroy CT with a group of friends, loot a Slime Blood, turn that shit in, and know that it was awarded to me for my hard work, and I'd like to do that without selling out my principles to an environment I find to be toxic. That would go against my principles, and against my fun. This is a game after all, and fun is kind of what it is about. I am not saying people who like hardcore competition are wrong, just that it isn't the type of atmosphere a person like me wants to play with in a game.

But that's just me. That's my brand of casual. There's many others out there in everyone's mind.


Just curious, have you actually raided on p99?

[arsenalpow]

Some encounters will always be messy. Anything in Hate or Fear can involve training, and a lot of it. That's the nature of those zones, and it's usually not on purpose.

it's the nature of the encounter when additional guilds try to leapfrog and be general idiots, there's no respect in this raid scene, and it's disingenuous at best to pretend like it's a factor of the encounter and not the hardcores doing whatever it takes to get dem pixels, and whether intent is there or not it doesn't matter because it's usually impossible to prove and you need HD-Fraps from 4 different angles and even then a conviction is unlikely

that's the game we don't want to play and boiling it down to "it ain't so bad" is just your opinion because you've made peace with the idea of shitting on someone else to get what you want

[Exmo]

Just curious, have you actually raided on p99?

He raids with BDA.

[Rhambuk]

Good post. I quoted this part because I felt exactly the same way. Even if I had 1,000,000 plat I still wouldn't have bought soul leech for my epic. I wanted to kill CT for it.

Many, many people have this conception that the raid scene is completely "toxic" because these huge drama posts about FTE sniping and trains get posted in RNF. They get a lot of attention. But for the most part raid encounters are not like that. There probably isn't as much drama or rule breaking as you think. Some encounters will always be messy. Anything in Hate or Fear can involve training, and a lot of it. That's the nature of those zones, and it's usually not on purpose. Aside from this, most engages go smoothly even with both guilds trying their hardest to win.

it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch.

back in the day when I played I remember specifically rogaen stated that pullers in pofear are going to train each other accidentally and that csr would not be involved.

we went up to clear for armor and another guild came up after they had appointed a person to run around with a kite and do nothing but train our pullers because they took it as training in the field was legal.

that leaves a very sour taste in the mouth, and it doesn't take but a couple of experiences like that before you don't even want to try because you know they know they are misinterpreting the rules to get the edge.

competition? please...that's being a dick for dicks sake and there is no need of that but people do it. How is that fun for anyone? and people wonder why the casuals don't want to sit for 30+ hours just to have some BS like that happen, even rarely, once is more than enough to turn most people away from raiding.

[arsenalpow]

Just curious, have you actually raided on p99?

of course he fucking has, just not to the TMO extreme level because of every fucking reason i've listed a dozen times

DO YOU EVEN RAID BRO?!?! It's such a fucking tired response.

[Uteunayr]

Just curious, have you actually raided on p99?

Yes, rather actively in fact.

[Thana8088]

it's the nature of the encounter when additional guilds try to leapfrog and be general idiots, there's no respect in this raid scene, and it's disingenuous at best to pretend like it's a factor of the encounter and not the hardcores doing whatever it takes to get dem pixels, and whether intent is there or not it doesn't matter because it's usually impossible to prove and you need HD-Fraps from 4 different angles and even then a conviction is unlikely

that's the game we don't want to play and boiling it down to "it ain't so bad" is just your opinion because you've made peace with the idea of shitting on someone else to get what you want


Kinda like stealing Draco because you thought TMO was kiting?

[Rhambuk]

of course he fucking has, just not to the TMO extreme level because of every fucking reason i've listed a dozen times

DO YOU EVEN RAID BRO?!?! It's such a fucking tired response.

If you don't shit in a sock for 3 days straight without sleep, you're not raiding

[arsenalpow]

Kinda like stealing Draco because you thought TMO was kiting?

kinda like ripping an officer core apart from the inside out because we wouldn't make your boyfriend a raid leader?

see? i can do that too

[Alarti0001]

it's the nature of the encounter when additional guilds try to leapfrog and be general idiots, there's no respect in this raid scene, and it's disingenuous at best to pretend like it's a factor of the encounter and not the hardcores doing whatever it takes to get dem pixels, and whether intent is there or not it doesn't matter because it's usually impossible to prove and you need HD-Fraps from 4 different angles and even then a conviction is unlikely

that's the game we don't want to play and boiling it down to "it ain't so bad" is just your opinion because you've made peace with the idea of shitting on someone else to get what you want

Respect is earned, also you have to give respect to get it. There has never been a time Lord Chest has respected any of the Hardcore guilds.

[Hitpoint]

it's the nature of the encounter when additional guilds try to leapfrog and be general idiots, there's no respect in this raid scene, and it's disingenuous at best to pretend like it's a factor of the encounter and not the hardcores doing whatever it takes to get dem pixels, and whether intent is there or not it doesn't matter because it's usually impossible to prove and you need HD-Fraps from 4 different angles and even then a conviction is unlikely

that's the game we don't want to play and boiling it down to "it ain't so bad" is just your opinion because you've made peace with the idea of shitting on someone else to get what you want

So, I'm under the impression you would prefer to be able to clear the entire plane before pulling a God? Yea, I guess I just don't mind the way it is. Matter of opinion. It will always be faster, even if there is some risk.

[arsenalpow]

Respect is earning, also you have to give respect to get it. There has never been a time Lord Chest has respected any of the Hardcore guilds.

respect is a two way street alarti, and there's never been a point where the hardcore guilds stopped shitting on the little guys, it's never enough and that's the issue right?

[Autotune]

Respect is earned, also you have to give respect to get it. There has never been a time Lord Chest has respected any of the Hardcore guilds.

Ex-hardcore raider here, hardcore guilds don't deserve any respect.

[arsenalpow]

So, I'm under the impression you would prefer to be able to clear the entire plane before pulling a God? Yea, I guess I just don't mind the way it is. Matter of opinion. It will always be faster, even if there is some risk.

no, we called our last CT via the p99 TM kite method, it's just incredibly messy when there's 3 guilds going after it

[Alarti0001]

respect is a two way street alarti, and there's never been a point where the hardcore guilds stopped shitting on the little guys, it's never enough and that's the issue right?

That is a wholly untrue answer. Come back when you are willing to speak truthfully.

[falkun]

Respect is earned, also you have to give respect to get it.

Says the man who can't stay out of RNF nor /OOC. Your taunts in both medias are infamous.

[Autotune]

That is a wholly untrue answer. Come back when you are willing to speak truthfully.

^ Obviously doesn't remember all the times we ran over other guilds in Hate to get inny.

lol'd

[Hitpoint]

If you don't shit in a sock for 3 days straight without sleep, you're not raiding

It's all optional. Our officers ask people not to poopsock VS room, or even be in VS room all the time. People choose to be there. AFK or at their computer, doesn't matter. If you don't want to partake in VS poopsock, you absolutely do not have to. Imo I would much rather a single tracker from each guild being there and having the raid log in, like it is with Trakanon.

[Uteunayr]

Kinda like stealing Draco because you thought TMO was kiting?

kinda like ripping an officer core apart from the inside out because we wouldn't make your boyfriend a raid leader?

see? i can do that too

The problem is the atmosphere demands it. I don't know this particular situation, so I am not taking a side on it. But when you mix ideologically opposed individuals, conflicts like this are assured to happen. There is science to back up that fact. The focus of my thesis is on exactly this subject.

If you're a person like me, and you want to see your epic, and you want to work hard for it, but you don't want the toxic atmosphere that comes along with it, you pretty much have nowhere to go. Now again, that toxic atmosphere I talk about is not toxic to everyone, some people like that atmosphere, and it is a good one to them. So please do not think I suggest it is morally wrong. My point is only that to me, it isn't the atmosphere I like, or that I enjoy. This is a game, I want to have fun, and I want to work hard to achieve my goals.

The problem is, the only way to compete and achieve your goals is to get your hands dirtied in getting involved in the atmosphere you dislike, and it's not because of a lack of hard work, but because those tactics are simply more effective. That's why right now, the conversations the guild leaders and officers are doing, it is the best moment so far on P99, because I can see the potential that the environment can become something myself, and many other casual players like, and still allow for the hardcore to create the environment they like.

I really hope good stuff comes from this. I really do. There are too many people like me out there who are willing to work hard, but don't want that type of hardcore environment to work in.

[Hitpoint]

no, we called our last CT via the p99 TM kite method, it's just incredibly messy when there's 3 guilds going after it

It absolutely is. I don't see another way, outside of a rotation. I think it would help if people didn't get bent out of shape about it, and just tried to understand why it happens and how to avoid it. Last CT there were 3 guilds going after him. There were trains. Unintentional ones. And everyone was civil about it, there wasn't petitions or drama or insanity. We rezed the dead, and helped drag other guilds. Maybe I'm naive but I actually think that it's possible to be civil about planes raids when all this is over. Maybe guild council will help with that.

[Elements]

Your argument would have merit if you competed and then weren't involved in training etc. You didn't even show up. Likely if you did you would have been called out many times just due to inexperience or ineptitude.

How are casuals being punished? Can you really speak to a sense of entitlement?

Your attitude is not at all conducive to a healthy raid scene.

Chest and BDA compete for ragefire all the time and I hear the complaints from other guilds in /ooc about them leapfrogging, training, KSing etc. I'm sure the staff can attest to the BDA petitionquest that goes on over ragefire. Chest just cannot stand to lose and as such he choses not to play the game at all.

[Alarti0001]

Says the man who can't stay out of RNF nor /OOC. Your taunts in both medias are infamous.

Shit talking doesn't mean a lack of respect. Shit-talking is an entertaining part of any competitive event. Have you ever played sports? I play in a few adult sports leagues we talk shit while we play then we get drinks after the game.

[arsenalpow]

It's all optional. Our officers ask people not to poopsock VS room, or even be in VS room all the time. People choose to be there. AFK or at their computer, doesn't matter. If you don't want to partake in VS poopsock, you absolutely do not have to. Imo I would much rather a single tracker from each guild being there and having the raid log in, like it is with Trakanon.

So again you're saying play like we want you to or we're to escalate the tactics and/or shit on you. I don't understand why you think this is a reasonable expectation.

[Xerxes]

29% lifetime raid attendance in fe...made maybe 50k in the past year and havent leveled an alt past 40 since joining fe...i still lead raids and pull mobs and help us win with what time i invest...bda dealt with raiding tmo head on while i was with them and yeah i didnt like it then i dont like it now...but id rather compete dirty on a video game then not compete at all...and i think you guys arguing over 4 vs/ct/trak/inny or 6 or 8 is pretty childish...yall should be figuring out how to get along and make a better raid scene...like fe offered bda a druushk rot on their attempt...that would have never happened w old tmo...expand on that...its getting better but maybe not as good as everyone wants...this behavior is just splitting us further apart...sorry i suck at forum posting black headband o7

[Hitpoint]

So again you're saying play like we want you to or we're to escalate the tactics and/or shit on you. I don't understand why you think this is a reasonable expectation.

What I said was confusing upon review. Apologies. I was using the hypothetical "you." What I meant to say is. FE members do not have to sock VS. Our officers don't want them to, and they choose to be there. I would rather if everyone just tracks VS instead of sits in the room with a stall force.

[Mezzmur]

You're all gay, btw.

For those late to the party.

Take TMO/FE Proposal that was originally posted with 7 day hands off, move that to 10, move Sirken's Mob list instead of TMO/FE's, ADD Sirken's PNP, Take TMO/FE No In-game Poopsock Rules. Tier 2 can have a rotation if they want, up to them. Tier 1 attacks Tier 2 on First 10 Days, Second 20 days Tier 1 on Tier 1....... YOU GET THIS:

http://i.imgur.com/CXzlmON.png

100% Fair to All, Tier 2 gets MORE mobs than Tier 1, and Tier 2 can attack Tier 1 mobs on the second 20 days. Someone decide rules on how you shift tier 1 and 2. If you don't like this idea you're donkers!

[Uteunayr]

It absolutely is. I don't see another way, outside of a rotation. I think it would help if people didn't get bent out of shape about it, and just tried to understand why it happens and how to avoid it. Last CT there were 3 guilds going after him. There were trains. Unintentional ones. And everyone was civil about it, there wasn't petitions or drama or insanity. We rezed the dead, and helped drag other guilds. Maybe I'm naive but I actually think that it's possible to be civil about planes raids when all this is over. Maybe guild council will help with that.

There are some means to de-clog raiding zones when one gets a first to engage. You can do as the guilds did shortly after TMO's suspensions a couple weeks ago, and say the previous guild to kill it cannot kill it again for X amount of time, therefore removing one guild from the equation.

You're right toward the end for sure when you say a guild council can help with that, as it can help make meaningful decisions to give reasonable means to taking down raid bosses without a lot of the bad blood that comes about from it. This last CT was also met with a lot of hesitation on the parts of guilds, as many were unsure if we were in the ban period or not yet. A guild council can help make rules among the fellow guilds as to how to approach these situations in a less cutthroat style, in a way that is beneficial for all guilds within their category of raiding style (hardcore/casual).

[Tanthallas]

29% lifetime raid attendance in fe...made maybe 50k in the past year and havent leveled an alt past 40 since joining fe...i still lead raids and pull mobs and help us win with what time i invest...bda dealt with raiding tmo head on while i was with them and yeah i didnt like it then i dont like it now...but id rather compete dirty on a video game then not compete at all...and i think you guys arguing over 4 vs/ct/trak/inny or 6 or 8 is pretty childish...yall should be figuring out how to get along and make a better raid scene...like fe offered bda a druushk rot on their attempt...that would have never happened w old tmo...expand on that...its getting better but maybe not as good as everyone wants...this behavior is just splitting us further apart...sorry i suck at forum posting black headband o7

Says the Large Bat.

[Elements]

Sadly Sirken's whole proposal is based on the past:

According to Rogean, we were to be creating equitable solutions for the future:


If a proposal favors the hardcores because they have everything to lose, they are basing the agreement on the past. If a proposal favors the casuals, they are not creating an equitable solution for everyone on the server.

Nothing in that post has anything to do with equity and if it did I'm sure it would be equity of effort=reward not social pixel sharing.

[falkun]

Effort = Reward: Half the server is casual, half the server is FFA. Put your effort in that 50% or not, IDGAF.

[Razdeline]

"there are tons of MMOs with instanced raids and triggered bosses, EQ is not one of those games. not having instances or triggered bosses was one of the things that set Classic EQ apart from all the crap games that exist today. i know that the staff doesn't want a rotation, and would prefer to see racing/competing for the targets."

Sirken the Great

This again ^

[Razdeline]

Sadly I think many people are are not taking a step back, and logically thinking of the philosophy that made EQ great.

[Elements]

Effort = Reward: Half the server is casual, half the server is FFA. Put your effort in that 50% or not, IDGAF.

Take a free mob first spawn of the month and have competiton thereafter.

[falkun]

Sure, I can start at the far casual side too: FFA the first mob of the month and rotate thereafter. But I don't think you are an idiot, so I cut the bullshit and started in the middle. I apologize for speeding this process along so you can get back to your dragons.

[Razdeline]

Serious Question: Wasn't it already an "advancement in tier" when a portion of BDA left for a more competitive raid scene? (And became Forceful Entry)

Wasn't it already an "advancement in tier" when TMO merged with DA for a more competitive raid scene? (And became TMO)

Wasn't it already an "advancement in tier" when a portion of Darkwind left for a more competitive raid scene? (And joined Inglourious Basterds)

If this is already happening, has happened, and will continue to happen; Why can't the casuals come to an agreement that guarantees them more than they have ever received before, in a rotational manner desired?

Sirken has already stated training will give entire guilds month long suspensions. Variance is going to be reduced, and all plans are on board to stop alt camping.

[Uteunayr]

Sadly I think many people are are not taking a step back, and logically thinking of the philosophy that made EQ great.

I have thought a lot on this subject, and when I think of EverQuest, I think of community. I think about what we have now in most MMOs, and how it has been destroyed through instancing the world. But I know EverQuest was a game that lived in a duality.

I once wrote on the /r/EQNext page about how I believe The Oasis of Marr, from a design standpoint, is the most telling, and wonderful zone in EverQuest. What you have in EverQuest, more than any other MMO today, is a system which Keohane and Nye would refer to as "Complex Interdependence". Normally, you have a system in which no one individual can do it all on his or her own, and they rely upon others in some way or another. You need to meet your friend? Well, you need a druid or wizard to help you. Your corpse is trapped down a well? Well, you need a necro to help you. You died and need a rez? Well, you need a cleric to help you. So this created a system in which players really relied upon one another, rather than needing to act independently of one another in a more greedy fashion, as we see exemplified in modern WoW.

This complex interdependence not only works between classes, but between levels, as higher levels tended to rely upon the lower levels to farm their bone chips, their bat wings, and all that good stuff, while at the same time, the lower levels relied upon the higher levels selling their bronze armor, their buffs, and all that good stuff.

So if you were a douchebag, and a notorious one, you were held socially accountable to people, as you'd start getting less and less help from others around you. People would be nicer to one another, not only because they are good people, but because it is a rationally smarter thing to do, given you must rely on others.

Further, lower level players and higher level players always interacted amongst each other while leveling. You had a Necro, a Cleric, someone on Spectres, an enchanter killing Giants, some high levels dishing out clarity, or killing Cazel while the low levels kill alligators and orcs. That's a level of interconnection you don't see in many games anymore. Instead, you have designated "Area A" for levels 1-5, Area B for 6-10... etc.

The issue I see is that there is very little need for interdependence, as most guilds can be more or less self-contained as you gain more and more power, and as the server continues on and content doesn't come quickly (which is in no way a rag at the speed of Velious, I completely understand, I am just saying that this is an outcome of that understandable fact), it allows for clustering of power which breaks down the complex interdependence between players. So complex interdependence has broken down on the server a good bit, but it also hangs on as many people are here due to nostalgia for this experience. EQ officially destroyed it with the Nexus and the Plane of Knowledge, which gimped a lot of the player interdependence. It was around that time, I believe, that they went to instanced raiding as well. Plane of Time, aye?

Most of that is not terribly relevant to the conversation at hand, but I truly believe that this is the single biggest philosophical contribution EQ did to online gaming, and it was shut down and destroyed by WoW's themepark model.

[svenghali]

I don't like the part where a single Trak kill locks you as a Tier 1 guild.

this. everything else seems well within reason but there should really be a different qualifier for tier 1 promotion. have only read like half of thread tho and not sure if this has been discussed more at length.

[Razdeline]

I have thought a lot on this subject, and when I think of EverQuest, I think of community. I think about what we have now in most MMOs, and how it has been destroyed through instancing the world. But I know EverQuest was a game that lived in a duality.

I once wrote on the /r/EQNext page about how I believe The Oasis of Marr, from a design standpoint, is the most telling, and wonderful zone in EverQuest. What you have in EverQuest, more than any other MMO today, is a system which Keohane and Nye would refer to as "Complex Interdependence". Normally, you have a system in which no one individual can do it all on his or her own, and they rely upon others in some way or another. You need to meet your friend? Well, you need a druid or wizard to help you. Your corpse is trapped down a well? Well, you need a necro to help you. You died and need a rez? Well, you need a cleric to help you. So this created a system in which players really relied upon one another, rather than needing to act independently of one another in a more greedy fashion, as we see exemplified in modern WoW.

This complex interdependence not only works between classes, but between levels, as higher levels tended to rely upon the lower levels to farm their bone chips, their bat wings, and all that good stuff, while at the same time, the lower levels relied upon the higher levels selling their bronze armor, their buffs, and all that good stuff.

So if you were a douchebag, and a notorious one, you were held socially accountable to people, as you'd start getting less and less help from others around you. People would be nicer to one another, not only because they are good people, but because it is a rationally smarter thing to do, given you must rely on others.

Further, lower level players and higher level players always interacted amongst each other while leveling. You had a Necro, a Cleric, someone on Spectres, an enchanter killing Giants, some high levels dishing out clarity, or killing Cazel while the low levels kill alligators and orcs. That's a level of interconnection you don't see in many games anymore. Instead, you have designated "Area A" for levels 1-5, Area B for 6-10... etc.

The issue I see is that there is very little need for interdependence, as most guilds can be more or less self-contained as you gain more and more power, and as the server continues on and content doesn't come quickly (which is in no way a rag at the speed of Velious, I completely understand, I am just saying that this is an outcome of that understandable fact), it allows for clustering of power which breaks down the complex interdependence between players.

Most of that is not terribly relevant to the conversation at hand, but I truly believe that this is the single biggest philosophical contribution EQ did to online gaming, and it was shut down and destroyed by WoW's themepark model.

Finally someone that gets it. And this is finally happening. People are being held accountable, the community is solving the problem, and a solution is going to be put into place. If everyone can agree to give to eachother(contested & rotations), the service would only give more to the community.

[Butthead]

lol, iv been tryin to reach gm's since christmas. i got banned for sayin somethin i guess. i couldnt evn get an answer back.


i msg'd sirken and drebael, petitioned on the forum thing... and have been 'bumping' it as i was told.

any suggestions? wtfs going on hurr man

[falkun]

Sven, you are reading tier1 incorrectly. According to Sirken's proposal, tier1 means you kill Trak, CT, Inny, and/or VS against *only* other tier1 guilds for the first 8 days of the month, then the rest of the time all targets are FFA. Tier1 can still decide amongst themselves to rotate or FFA their T1 mobs, but they do not have to worry about tier2 killing them for the first 8 days.

See this graphic explanation:
http://i.imgur.com/RjPLGML.png

[YendorLootmonkey]

If the barrier to competition on this server is all the herp-derp, what if the herp-derp is removed (either by coding or heavy sanctions as a deterrence?) I think that's how Sirken designed this proposal. How much herp-derp do you have to remove before similarly sized guilds are on equal footing and can no longer use the herp-derp as an excuse as to not participate in the competition?

My issues are that this relies on extremely impartial and objective rulings (Amelinda sort of tainted that for us), accurately interpreted (and filmed) FRAPS, and lack of rules-lawyering, which history has shown us we are not capable of.

[arsenalpow]

29% lifetime raid attendance in fe...made maybe 50k in the past year and havent leveled an alt past 40 since joining fe...i still lead raids and pull mobs and help us win with what time i invest...bda dealt with raiding tmo head on while i was with them and yeah i didnt like it then i dont like it now...but id rather compete dirty on a video game then not compete at all...and i think you guys arguing over 4 vs/ct/trak/inny or 6 or 8 is pretty childish...yall should be figuring out how to get along and make a better raid scene...like fe offered bda a druushk rot on their attempt...that would have never happened w old tmo...expand on that...its getting better but maybe not as good as everyone wants...this behavior is just splitting us further apart...sorry i suck at forum posting black headband o7

so around 100 mobs spawn in a month not including VP

tier 1 gets 50
tier 2 gets 50

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE

tier 1 also gets the 24 spawns from VP

so a tier 1 guild can compete and get damn near 40 mobs just by breaking even on encounters

tier 2 guilds (7 of them) will be chopping the remaining 50.. so like 5+ per guild

casual scum asking for handouts while the top 2 are getting 6-7x more mobs, inconceivable

[Razdeline]

If the barrier to competition on this server is all the herp-derp, what if the herp-derp is removed (either by coding or heavy sanctions as a deterrence?) I think that's how Sirken designed this proposal. How much herp-derp do you have to remove before similarly sized guilds are on equal footing and can no longer use the herp-derp as an excuse as to not participate in the competition?

My issues are that this relies on extremely impartial and objective rulings (Amelinda sort of tainted that for us), accurately interpreted (and filmed) FRAPS, and lack of rules-lawyering, which history has shown us we are not capable of.

let players camp outside the orb or at zone in, it still requires guilds to race/compete down to trak. they WILL NOT train shit away and risk a 4 week suspension, did u even see how butthurt a raiding guild was over their recent two weeks? and i believe it was FE's leader that told me 2 weeks could be a death sentence. and if by chance that doesnt work, then we'll disband the offending guild and ban it's leadership. really not sure how you can sit there and honestly think someone will just say "fuck it" and risk all that. Guild Leaders magically become better at managing their members when a single persons actions can effect the entire guild.

[Elements]

so around 100 mobs spawn in a month not including VP

tier 1 gets 50
tier 2 gets 50

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE

tier 1 also gets the 24 spawns from VP

so a tier 1 guild can compete and get damn near 40 mobs just by breaking even on encounters

tier 2 guilds (7 of them) will be chopping the remaining 50.. so like 5+ per guild

casual scum asking for handouts while the top 2 are getting 6-7x more mobs, inconceivable

T1 guilds working probably 100X as hard for 6-7x more and that's if the tiers stay this way into the future. seems fair.

[Razdeline]

so around 100 mobs spawn in a month not including VP

tier 1 gets 50
tier 2 gets 50

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE

tier 1 also gets the 24 spawns from VP

so a tier 1 guild can compete and get damn near 40 mobs just by breaking even on encounters

tier 2 guilds (7 of them) will be chopping the remaining 50.. so like 5+ per guild

casual scum asking for handouts while the top 2 are getting 6-7x more mobs, inconceivable

But that's exactly what you are doing, asking for a handout. You have the OPTION to lead your guild to these places and take this content. If everything in life was given to you, it would have no value.

BDA is fully capable too, and with the new raid stipulations it wouldn't be that hard. Fights in this era are trivial. With any of these plans, the gap of what is reasonably attainable through competition is severely reduced.

[YendorLootmonkey]

My issues are that this relies on extremely impartial and objective rulings (Amelinda sort of tainted that for us), accurately interpreted (and filmed) FRAPS, and lack of rules-lawyering, which history has shown us we are not capable of.



You forgot that part.

[Tycko]

Classic EQ spawn timers known.

INC POOPSOCK from casual and hardcore players

Dumb, must fix

Custom p99 EQ spawn varience.

INC POOPSOCK from hardcore players

Is this dumb? does it need to be fixed? Good question , and since the majority of the server is casuals, it would seem the majority of the player base say yes, must be fixed.


How you might ask? Well they have not found a solution for 2+ years so maybe variance needs to go.... and a NEW system be put in it's place to fix casuals and hardcores from poopsocking.

Tracking is a derivative of varience, and EVERYONE dispises tracking it seems like this is the right direction.

I think any proposal needs to be in conjunction with removing variance.

All the fighting and the real enemy is variance!!!!!!

TO ARMS!

[svenghali]

I think this is giving up WAY to much to people who aren't willing to put forth a fraction of the effort of tier 1 guilds. I'd say first spawn of the month to anything outside VP be Tier 2 only whether its server repop or natural spawn. If any Tier 2 guild bags more than 2 targets in a month then they are moved up to tier 1 for the following month.

you're high as fuck

[Clark]

"No silly rotations, no silly councils, no BS. just racing for mobs the way it should be. for the people that are hell bent on a rotation, I say this; there are tons of MMOs with instanced raids and triggered bosses, EQ is not one of those games. Not having instances or triggered bosses was one of the things that set Classic EQ apart from all the crap games that exist today. I know that the staff doesn't want a rotation, and would prefer to see racing/competing for the targets."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Only thing that needs altered is not being able to park. That isn't fair, and can't be enforced.

[Razdeline]

You forgot that part.

No, I didn't. I chose to ignore it because that is exactly why we are here. The staff DOES NOT want this type of behavior to continue, for obvious reasons. They are forcing a raid agreement from the community, for obvious reasons.

[Razdeline]

They will enforce it. Having a defined set of raid rules that everyone agrees on also assures that all parties involved know the risks before entering this type of agreement.

[Clark]

black headband o7

[Tecmos Deception]

I have thought a lot on this subject, and when I think of EverQuest, I think of community. I think about what we have now in most MMOs, and how it has been destroyed through instancing the world. But I know EverQuest was a game that lived in a duality.

I once wrote on the /r/EQNext page about how I believe The Oasis of Marr, from a design standpoint, is the most telling, and wonderful zone in EverQuest. What you have in EverQuest, more than any other MMO today, is a system which Keohane and Nye would refer to as "Complex Interdependence". Normally, you have a system in which no one individual can do it all on his or her own, and they rely upon others in some way or another. You need to meet your friend? Well, you need a druid or wizard to help you. Your corpse is trapped down a well? Well, you need a necro to help you. You died and need a rez? Well, you need a cleric to help you. So this created a system in which players really relied upon one another, rather than needing to act independently of one another in a more greedy fashion, as we see exemplified in modern WoW.

This complex interdependence not only works between classes, but between levels, as higher levels tended to rely upon the lower levels to farm their bone chips, their bat wings, and all that good stuff, while at the same time, the lower levels relied upon the higher levels selling their bronze armor, their buffs, and all that good stuff.

So if you were a douchebag, and a notorious one, you were held socially accountable to people, as you'd start getting less and less help from others around you. People would be nicer to one another, not only because they are good people, but because it is a rationally smarter thing to do, given you must rely on others.

Further, lower level players and higher level players always interacted amongst each other while leveling. You had a Necro, a Cleric, someone on Spectres, an enchanter killing Giants, some high levels dishing out clarity, or killing Cazel while the low levels kill alligators and orcs. That's a level of interconnection you don't see in many games anymore. Instead, you have designated "Area A" for levels 1-5, Area B for 6-10... etc.

The issue I see is that there is very little need for interdependence, as most guilds can be more or less self-contained as you gain more and more power, and as the server continues on and content doesn't come quickly (which is in no way a rag at the speed of Velious, I completely understand, I am just saying that this is an outcome of that understandable fact), it allows for clustering of power which breaks down the complex interdependence between players. So complex interdependence has broken down on the server a good bit, but it also hangs on as many people are here due to nostalgia for this experience. EQ officially destroyed it with the Nexus and the Plane of Knowledge, which gimped a lot of the player interdependence. It was around that time, I believe, that they went to instanced raiding as well. Plane of Time, aye?

Most of that is not terribly relevant to the conversation at hand, but I truly believe that this is the single biggest philosophical contribution EQ did to online gaming, and it was shut down and destroyed by WoW's themepark model.

I actually had very similar thoughts running through my head randomly yesterday, though mostly in the context of class interactions not levels and such. A game like WoW might "gain" something with more mechanics used in every fight, but it loses even more by removing some of the roles EQ had (debuffer, buffer, CCer, puller)... and that makes the game more boring when there are only 3 roles and their interactions with each other are very limited in scale compared to when you have 7+.

[Uteunayr]

T1 guilds working probably 100X as hard for 6-7x more and that's if the tiers stay this way into the future. seems fair.

If you're being sarcastic (difficult to tell over text): Hardcore guilds get their fun out of doing that. If you don't, enjoy it the casual way. For many other people, this is work and not a game. Instead, they'd rather have fun building alliances, maintaining rotations and peace between a coalition of guilds, introducing new raid guilds to the content, and things of that nature.

There are two indivisible types of raider on this server. Casuals don't work less hard, they work harder in different ways, because they want a different experience. Maintaining a rotation is not simple. Maintaining an alliance or an agreement is not simple. It's herding cats. But that is fun to a different type of person from those who find it fun to do all the work hardcore raiders do. So, no, that is not fair.

You want fairness? Read John Rawl's A Theory Of Justice. Not only is he one of the most renowned political philosophers of the 20th century, but he has a definition of fairness that persists to this day, even making it into a recent episode of Doctor Who as a means of conflict resolution. What is fairness? Fairness is if you make people bargain in which they do not know what their bargaining positions are. Meaning, if you can abstract yourself for a moment, and think what agreement would people come to if they didn't know if they were hardcore or casual, or if they were in a hardcore or casual guild? What policies would be implemented? That's the crux of fairness, as it isn't skewed by individual bias, not by superior bargaining position. And in such a case, the staff plan which provides for the 6-7x more mobs would probably be seen as unfair in the eyes of people in an original position, as it gives too much. No rational person betting on whether they would be hardcore or casual, and in one of 3, or one of 7, would create rules so skewed. But the casuals here have accepted that.

That's 30-35 a month for T1, and 5 for T2. So, 1 a day vs 1.25 a week, per guild. Or, for the competitive side, 3 pops a day approximately to fight over. That's not a bad compromise. Let T1 shape the way they want to use their share of the mobs, and T2 shape the way they want to use their share of the mobs. If the casuals want to rotate, let them rotate. If the hardcores want to FFA, let the hardcores FFA. That's more than enough to rotate, and more than enough to FFA.

We want a chance to earn our epics, and we want a fair share of those mobs. VP was surrendered as your playground, but things like CT/Inny/Trak... People like me do a lot of work in this game, but don't want your atmosphere. To say we have to delve into your atmosphere for the sake of achieving our goals is counter productive to the goals of lessening the conflicts between guilds. The hardcore atmosphere is toxic to me. The casual atmosphere would probably be toxic to you. The best way to reduce conflicts between guilds are to keep ideologically opposite groups separated in such a way that they can each enjoy the atmosphere they love most, without either side's atmosphere hurting the other. Let each enjoy their half. That's what Rogean's plan provides for. It lets each side enjoy their half, and leaves VP alone for now, and for when we get keys, unless we want to delve into your territory, and compete on your terms. Hardcores get to have the environment they want, and casuals get the environment they want.

This is not only just, it is fair, and it has the best chance at creating a longer lasting reduction of conflict between guilds, by letting each side experience the raiding atmosphere they want, without being detrimental to the other in any way other than sharing the pops. It even bumps back to Tier 1 if a Tier 2 raid takes too long to get it, depending on how Tier 2 decides to allocate pops for themselves. Seeking more than this seems less about wanting competition (which the plan provides for), and more about wanting schadenfreude. And that really isn't helpful to us all enjoying the game in our own ways.

So far, the best argument I have heard is that if FE + IB unite, then by Rogean's written plan (as it stands), it'd be a rotation in Tier 1, since if you previously got the kill, you can't get it again when it comes back to your tier. But I am certain no Tier 2 guild is going to care how Tier 1 handles their pops. If it bounces back to Tier 1, I am sure no one will mind letting it be FFA for the Tier 1 guilds, whether it be a 3 way fight, or a 2 way fight with the IB + FE coalition. So, that's an easy fix to let hardcores get their environment, and let casuals build theirs.

Now, if you were not being sarcastic, I agree, because that's what they find to be fun. And this is a game about fun. So to each their own. Different styles for different people.

I actually had very similar thoughts running through my head randomly yesterday, though mostly in the context of class interactions not levels and such. A game like WoW might "gain" something with more mechanics used in every fight, but it loses even more by removing some of the roles EQ had (debuffer, buffer, CCer, puller)... and that makes the game more boring when there are only 3 roles and their interactions with each other are very limited in scale compared to when you have 7+.

WoW really did lose a lot. I notice that a lot of the difference in WoW and EQ has to do with CC and the necessity for it. One thing you could never do in WoW is Fear Kite, because CC breaks on damage. In EQ, it has a chance to break on damage (unless a mez, etc), so you can create some useful, interesting strategies for engaging mobs that are actually equally as strong as you are. A level 50 character versus a level 50 mob... That's a dangerous fight, lol. Not so in modern MMOs. It is quite sad.

[Jorgam]

Would it be possible to draft a copy of the server and Xfer the top guilds, and anyone else that wanted to go with them, over to it? It would open the end game up to the lower guilds while giving the top tier players a place to compete as normal. Just an idea.

[Uteunayr]

Would it be possible to draft a copy of the server and Xfer the top guilds, and anyone else that wanted to go with them, over to it? It would open the end game up to the lower guilds while giving the top tier players a place to compete as normal. Just an idea.

I see this as being the most extreme extension of the Staff Proposal posted by Rogean. Instead of splitting server mobs (except VP), make a Casual Blue, and a Hardcore Blue. If you're on Casual Blue, you must adhere to the casual rules that the guilds put together in their friendly raiding setting, and if you're on the Hardcore Blue, you must adhere to the FFA, and never bring up the idea of more casual raiding. It must always be hardcore.

The only issue I see is that you'd want to transfer the hardcore or casual population to the other server, so how do you do that? If you just let free transfers, people will start gaming economies by shuttling money over to the other server, etc. If you lock it down, than a lot of people who have quit for a break will come back being unable to switch server to the one they want their main toon on. Lastly, if you do it by a request-by-request basis, it bogs down the server staff who do everything they do for free, thank you all very much for that.

Nevertheless, it seems like the ultimate extension of the Staff Proposal. But if we are stuck on one server (given the bag of worms of other issues that open by creating two servers), it seems to be the most fair, most just, and the most likely to work.

[Obrae]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

[Jorgam]

I see this as being the most extreme extension of the Staff Proposal posted by Rogean. Instead of splitting server mobs (except VP), make a Casual Blue, and a Hardcore Blue. If you're on Casual Blue, you must adhere to the casual rules that the guilds put together in their friendly raiding setting, and if you're on the Hardcore Blue, you must adhere to the FFA, and never bring up the idea of more casual raiding. It must always be hardcore.

The only issue I see is that you'd want to transfer the hardcore or casual population to the other server, so how do you do that? If you just let free transfers, people will start gaming economies by shuttling money over to the other server, etc. If you lock it down, than a lot of people who have quit for a break will come back being unable to switch server to the one they want their main toon on. Lastly, if you do it by a request-by-request basis, it bogs down the server staff who do everything they do for free, thank you all very much for that.

Nevertheless, it seems like the ultimate extension of the Staff Proposal. But if we are stuck on one server (given the bag of worms of other issues that open by creating two servers), it seems to be the most fair, most just, and the most likely to work.

You have valid points. There would be challenges in regards to who/when and with what they could take. And I also appreciate all that the staff does for free/love of the game! =)

[Jorgam]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

You are correct about socialism. And as anyone with eyes can see, it always fails or limps along until it implodes. There is a solution, that doesn't equal giving a man a fish. What that is, perhaps we won't know until more dialogue is had.

[CodyF86]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

Not even directed specifically at any of your points in that post, but your attitude
is part of the problem.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[fullmetalcoxman]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

Yea, except this is a fucking game, not real life. Raiding isn't supposed to be a second god damned job.

[Uteunayr]

This whole raid thing is like an experiment on socialism.

How to get more while doing less. And while it all started gloriously with some TMO bashing, the staff have rapidly realized what they were working with.

now its hilarious to read throuhg. The plebs want it all... but at one condition, they most not work for it.

Give it a couple month and they will be asking for a complete repop for each guild per month ! It's all hilarious really.

You are correct about socialism. And as anyone with eyes can see, it always fails or limps along until it implodes. There is a solution, that doesn't equal giving a man a fish. What that is, perhaps we won't know until more dialogue is had.

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda, please skip down if you want no part of this, as it is totally off topic, just as bringing up socialism here. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Back on topic!

It is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, as that is what you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible, and it will only continue more conflict. Please see my earlier posts for an elaboration on this point.

[Versus]

Yea, except this is a fucking game, not real life. Raiding isn't supposed to be a second god damned job.

Phisting: Last 30 Days: 28% of raids Last 60 Days: 28% of raids Last 90 Days: 22% of raids Lifetime (07/06/11 - 12/18/13): 35% of raids

You don't have to be a neckbeard having mouthbreather to get gear in EQ. Next excuse please.

[Jorgam]

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Lastly, it is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, if you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible.

Thanks for the information. I think, however, that you are discussing the idealized form of socialism and not the realities of the political model when employed by humans. On paper it sounds great, in practice, not so much. Schadenfreude is good term. That isn't what I want, as I am willing to earn my keep! However, much of the top end game comes off as malicious to those who aren't a part of the top end guilds. In particular I think the epic situation is beyond ridiculous. Having to buy some epics, due to top guilds possessing the spawns non-stop, is wrong.

[Eloian]

Ute da man, Original Dr.Who avatar, Political junkie, dern nice guy. Rock on brother.

Eloian Bushlover (Any Necros about? I'm a ranger...well you know the rest)
57 Halfelf Ranger
<BDA>

[arsenalpow]

Uhh, no. That's not socialism. Forgive me readers, I must digress into elucidating a term that is too heavily skewed by years of propaganda, please skip down if you want no part of this, as it is totally off topic, just as bringing up socialism here. Socialism is a system in which the product of the work of society is distributed to the producers of the product. So, a socialist system is a factory that creates a product, and the workers within that factory decide how it is distributed amongst themselves. It does not have to be even, it does not have to be fair. But the producers must be in control of the product, so that the benefit of the product goes to those that produce and create. Socialism is not giving a man a fish, it is saying that you can get all the fishermen together, and as a group, they decide how to dish out, how to sell, and how to market their fish as a company, without having managers who do not produce the product themselves.

Given that the product in this case is raid mobs, and we don't create raid mobs, this is not even close to socialism. We, the players, don't produce anything. We consume generated pixels for enjoyment.

Further, socialist systems do not historically implode, autocratic regimes historically tend to implode. Remember, your eyes are only good for so much, just as eyes once told us that the earth is flat, but science and empirical observation of the facts in more detailed analysis has shown us that is wrong. Similarly, very little is out there to say that socialist systems collapse on their face, but that's getting into political science with no relevance here.

Back on topic!

It is not about doing no work for it. I'll work damn hard for it, and I work damn hard to be a good person and help out as many of my fellow Necromancers as I can. I work hard at any game that I play, I just don't want an atmosphere of hardcore raiding that is toxic to my mental health. You all can have that, as that is what you want. Rogean's plan provides for it. If you want schadenfreude, then I think the issue is truly indivisible, and it will only continue more conflict. Please see my earlier posts for an elaboration on this point.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QebWR8vIjlk/TMnANM8hJCI/AAAAAAAAAQ8/dN6n5-umrLU/s1600/burn+her.jpg

[Uteunayr]

Thanks for the information. I think, however, that you are discussing the idealized form of socialism and not the realities of the political model when employed by humans. On paper it sounds great, in practice, not so much.

Schadenfreude is good term. That isn't what I want, as I am willing to earn my keep! However, much of the top end game comes off as malicious to those who aren't a part of the top end guilds. In particular I think the epic situation is beyond ridiculous. Having to buy some epics, due to top guilds possessing the spawns non-stop, is wrong.

But that's the mistake I am pointing you too. Every big socialism we have seen has also been an autocracy. It is not because autocracies and socialisms go together, it is because when the Soviet Union became a world power in opposition to the United States in a struggle for hegemony following World War II, each had to ideologically polarize from one another, and seed their ideological views into their blocks of states. So you have the United States using the Marshall Plan to instill capitalist democratic systems into western Europe. The USSR did similar, but did it for autocratic socialism. However, the United States still liked autocratic regimes, as they made for an easy way to control other states, such as what the United States did through much of the 50s and 60s in South American. For that reason, we ideologically polarized ourselves from Socialism as a concept, rather than from Autocracy. You cannot dissect the two of these from one another on grand scales, because of this fact.

In a similar way, you can't really segregate capitalism from democracy in many cases due to this same fact, except when looking in more recent years at anocracies and the growth of new states and new political systems in the post-Soviet era. Socialism is a common practice in many parts of the United States, but it is not called that. There are numerous places around the world that run more socialist systems, independent of autocratic regimes, but they are all small. No large socialist state has ever arisen due to the ideological polarization of the Cold War and the seeding done by the victor, the United States. Instead, you have to look at small scale versions of socialism if you're going to have a hope of understanding how it works as a system. So, if you want to say Socialism falls flat on its face, it isn't that simple, because it's confounded by even more powerful evidence that Autocracies fall on their faces, and your variables are confused.

But this is all beside the point... What is being suggested on this server by the casual raiders is not Socialism. It doesn't come in any way close to fitting what Socialism is by definition.

For anyone passing through and curious on what this all actually is in a more elaborate way than my ramblings, check out the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Whccunka4.

As for schadenfreude, as it stands with Rogean's proposal, there'd be around 2-3 mobs a day (14-21 a week for 3 guilds to fight over) for the Hardcore tier to go for, and 1 mob for each casual guild (assuming a rotation) each week. This is more than enough, really. It isn't asking for hand outs, its asking to let us enjoy the game, enjoy our more relaxed, less cutthroat competition with one another, and let them enjoy their more cutthroat competition. We each like our side of it, why make one suffer for the other? The only reason I can think is schadenfreude.

[Rhambuk]

But that's the mistake I am pointing you too. Every big socialism we have seen has also been an autocracy. It is not because autocracies and socialisms go together, it is because when the Soviet Union became a world power in opposition to the United States in a struggle for hegemony following World War II, each had to ideologically polarize from one another, and seed their ideological views into their blocks of states. So you have the United States using the Marshall Plan to instill capitalist democratic systems into western Europe. The USSR did similar, but did it for autocratic socialism. However, the United States still liked autocratic regimes, as they made for an easy way to control other states, such as what the United States did through much of the 50s and 60s in South American. For that reason, we ideologically polarized ourselves from Socialism as a concept, rather than from Autocracy. You cannot dissect the two of these from one another on grand scales, because of this fact.

In a similar way, you can't really segregate capitalism from democracy in many cases due to this same fact, except when looking in more recent years at anocracies and the growth of new states and new political systems in the post-Soviet era. Socialism is a common practice in many parts of the United States, but it is not called that. There are numerous places around the world that run more socialist systems, independent of autocratic regimes, but they are all small. No large socialist state has ever arisen due to the ideological polarization of the Cold War and the seeding done by the victor, the United States. Instead, you have to look at small scale versions of socialism if you're going to have a hope of understanding how it works as a system. So, if you want to say Socialism falls flat on its face, it isn't that simple, because it's confounded by even more powerful evidence that Autocracies fall on their faces, and your variables are confused.

But this is all beside the point... What is being suggested on this server by the casual raiders is not Socialism. It doesn't come in any way close to fitting what Socialism is by definition.

For anyone passing through and curious on what this all actually is in a more elaborate way than my ramblings, check out the video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9Whccunka4.

As for schadenfreude, as it stands with Rogean's proposal, there'd be around 2-3 mobs a day (14-21 a week for 3 guilds to fight over) for the Hardcore tier to go for, and 1 mob for each casual guild (assuming a rotation) each week. This is more than enough, really. It isn't asking for hand outs, its asking to let us enjoy the game, enjoy our more relaxed, less cutthroat competition with one another, and let them enjoy their more cutthroat competition. We each like our side of it, why make one suffer for the other? The only reason I can think is schadenfreude.

im guessing you dont cut meat at the grocery store?

big fan of socialism btw

[Obrae]

Not even directed specifically at any of your points in that post, but your attitude
is part of the problem.

Aaradin
The A-Team

I understand what you mean, myself i am only reacting to what i see with my bag of popcorn tho :)
But i did felt a change in the wind.

[Uteunayr]

im guessing you dont cut meat at the grocery store?

big fan of socialism btw

Lol. I'm a political scientist graduate student that focuses on international institutions and comparative public opinion. In the off-time, I work as a maintenance worker at a hazardous and industrial gas and chemical distributor.

The conversation really didn't need to deviate into socialism, but to suggest that what the casuals want here is socialism is just an irresponsible analogy to pander to the normal knee jerk reaction against it as a word. It has nothing to do with what is going on here, lol.

[Galelor]

"there are tons of MMOs with instanced raids and triggered bosses, EQ is not one of those games. not having instances or triggered bosses was one of the things that set Classic EQ apart from all the crap games that exist today. i know that the staff doesn't want a rotation, and would prefer to see racing/competing for the targets."

Sirken the Great

I played live up until 07ish. EQ IS one of those games in the literal sense from LDoN forward (they even went back and instances PoTime when OoW was released...) and in the metaphorical sense since go live. Once competition became intense enough, (not even close to as bad as what happens on p99,) Sony understood that they needed to instance raid zones so everyone capable of killing x raid content could get a shot at it.

During the classic days there were metaphorical versions of instancing because there were many servers and each server only had 1-3 guilds capable of killing raid mobs. When comparing classic competitive raiding to p99s competitive raiding, multiple servers was a version of instancing! In classic, most servers didn't have all raid mobs dead the second they spawned. The high level goal of getting to mobs quickly was to get to mobs before they ended up on euro time (there were obviously races to spawns, but nothing like we see here.)

Guilds had a 'raid start time' not a bat phone... (Do you remember being docked DKP because you were late for raid start times? Do you remember PUGing dragons? I do. They weren't even called PUGs then, they were 'open raids' and sometimes they were scheduled days ahead of time on the forums...) If there was too much competition on 1 server, guilds literally switched servers. There isn't really that option here...

The point is, there was less competition on live because of the vastly smaller amounts of max level characters, no bat phone/vent (for the most part), the number of raid guilds per server was a fraction of what it is here, and the fact that there were tons of servers to choose from.

p99 is horribly overburdened at level 60. It is like 5 or 7 classic servers worth of raid guilds all jammed into one server. No one is going to be happy with the results of a raid agreement, if there is one, because no guild is going to get enough raid mobs. When looking at what we have here currently, or what could possibly be agreed to in some kind of sever wide guild agreement, trying to compare this raid community to the classic raid experience is laughable at best.

The only way to keep only 1 server running, and allow even a remotely classic experience in the raid scene, is to set up some sort of instancing (or partial instancing) to alleviate some of the congestion of having so many high level guilds on 1 server.

I'd also like to add that I personally don't believe Velious is going to solve this particular problem. High value targets with top end gear are still going to be kept perma down (NToV/AoW/ST/ETC.)