Ignoring the Average Joe: Why most raid plans do nothing for those who need it most

[Frieza_Prexus]

I am hesitant to make a new post given how frequently people have been vomiting on their keyboards and pressing Enter, but I see a large problem looming, and I don't think it has been satisfactorily addressed.

The Issue

Many of the non "Tier 1" guilds do not kill raid mobs, not because they can't compete, but because they do not have the desire or ability to compete at certain times. For example, smaller guilds are certainly capable of killing Trakanon, but they are not capable or desirous of killing him at 9 AM on a Tuesday morning. These people have demanding jobs, families, and other responsibilities that hinder their ability to respond to batphones on short notice. Many of the current ideas floating around do nothing to address the issue of spawn times, and they often set a time limit on how long the mob can be spawned before it defaults to FFA. These solutions do little to address this issue.

One of the largest outcries from the community is that the current setup prevents the casual from ever seeing, much less participating in, the end game. No one can reasonably suggest that casuals should have just as much content as the hardcore, but neither can anyone suggest that the casual should never be allowed to even glimpse the endgame. The goal should be to enable both groups in a fair manner that does not unduly impact the other.

Solving the problem: Hardcores gonna hardcore; casuals gonna casual

I see a fundamental error in most plans because they attempt to create a single sandbox where both populations are to play. This is, in my view, an incorrect approach. The rift is so drastic that it cannot be satisfactorily bridged. There must be two separate schemes. This is why I personally favor hands off periods with baglimits, and similar plans that completely segregate the different populations.

The ideal situation would be a pre-announced repop every ~2 weeks wherein no guild make take more than 2 targets, and no guild may attack the repop if it claimed more than X# of targets since the last repop. The repop time can vary to accommodate time zones, but the general thrust is that it is reasonably predictable so that players may plan around them. Players do not respond to 4 AM batphones for a variety of reasons, but a 7:00 PM Tuesday Night or an 11:00 AM Saturday morning repop would certainly make the average player's personal calendar. If casuals are to have meaningful participation, they must 1) be able to plan their schedule in advance of the raid, and 2) be protected from predatory hardcores.

NOTE: I understand that the staff has said that repops are not on the table, but we've also been told that they'd never force negotiations on the players. These are interesting times, and nothing is impossible. If we appeal logically and diplomatically it may enable otherwise impossible solutions.

Recap: Why is this a problem and what does this solve? Explain Like I'm 5

Many smaller guilds do not compete because time and commitment restrictions keep them from logging in when the mobs spawn. Many of the current proposals do nothing to solve or address this issue. By segregating raid targets into completely separate groups between the casual and the hardcore you allow the casual to make time to raid with a promise of absolutely zero interference from the hardcore crowd, and you allow the hardcore to continue their activities without harming the casual.

[Razdeline]

Casuals have a time limit on mobs when they are up, I.E. don't kill in the time needed and anyone is game.

Their casualness will further improve hardcore game-play.

[Rhambuk]

Too many suggestions.

I can't lie though, It's nice to see so many people that care about the server.

[Pint]

tldr these other guilds are not going to be happy until you guarantee them mobs they dont deserve in quantities that they dont deserve with lockouts and no time limits that make encounters in anyway detrimental to them. they want handouts, and they are apparently about to get them.

[Frieza_Prexus]

tldr these other guilds are not going to be happy until you guarantee them mobs they dont deserve in quantities that they dont deserve with lockouts and no time limits that make encounters in anyway detrimental to them. they want handouts, and they are apparently about to get them.

This is not about who does or does not deserve mobs, nor is it about handouts.

This is about ensuring that any solution addresses one of the main reasons many do not raid: Mob spawn at the wrong times and the casuals have NO protection against hardcores. This lack prevents them from raiding at all, when they should at least be able to raid a little.

[Rhambuk]

tldr these other guilds are not going to be happy until you guarantee them mobs they dont deserve in quantities that they dont deserve with lockouts and no time limits that make encounters in anyway detrimental to them. they want handouts, and they are apparently about to get them.

Don't deserve?

This whole entitlement thing comes from putting in insane hours because of variance which isn't classic and...the hell with it im too tired of reading you hardcore folks who think casual guilds want shit handed to them. Who the hell WANTS to track for endless hours not knowing if it will pay off?

that's not everquest its not classic. if you want to feel entitled to a mob because you sat in a spot for 10 hours go make a server called projectpoopsock where the mobs spawn once a month.

[Pint]

im not entitled to shit, im just tired of reading post after post of people bitching that the free handouts they are getting are not enough.

[radditsu]

I am tired of the lot of you being dum.

[Frieza_Prexus]

im not entitled to shit, im just tired of reading post after post of people bitching that the free handouts they are getting are not enough.

This is not the thread for that. Please take it elsewhere.

[Pint]

This is not about who does or does not deserve mobs, nor is it about handouts.

This is about ensuring that any solution addresses one of the main reasons many do not raid: Mob spawn at the wrong times and the casuals have NO protection against hardcores. This lack prevents them from raiding at all, when they should at least be able to raid a little.

every proposal ive read has made concessions to give casual guilds more targets and a more balanced raid scene, and every one of them has been shit on unless it somehow involves guaranteed kills/attempts which is outrageous.

[Frieza_Prexus]

every proposal ive read has made concessions to give casual guilds more targets and a more balanced raid scene, and every one of them has been shit on unless it somehow involves guaranteed kills/attempts which is outrageous.

This is not about why each plan failed. It's about a problem that cannot be solved in the way people are trying to solve it.

No solution has been found because it does NOT exist where people are currently looking. That's the whole point. Only by completely segregating the populations do you address this issue.

[Derubael]

So, how do you feel about Proposition C? (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133585)

[radditsu]

See my flat point system for a fair system. The incredible advantages of raid guilds negated! 2 guilds cant dominate all spawns. Variance system taken into account. Vp for the top end until 4 guilds kill a mob in there! Scaleable! Spreadsheets!

[Funkutron5000]

So, how do you feel about Proposition C? (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133585)

I prefer RU486

[radditsu]

So, how do you feel about Proposition C? (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133585)

I have...not so much a proposition...more of a proposal
Read here:

http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html

[Frieza_Prexus]

So, how do you feel about Proposition C? (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133585)

ASSuming the rotations are properly enforced it does protect many of the little guys in that it protects the mob from predators until they are ready to kill. However, the variance will still put many raiders into a scheduling conflict when their turn does come up.

It's also somewhat complex, and it's not self-policing. Simplicity and self-management are qualities that I think are extremely necessary from any system to prosper. I favor the "protected repop" angle so heavily for two reasons:

1) it is utterly predictable if you tell them ahead of time. 3 days notice? "Honey watch the kids and order a pizza; I'm killing Dragons Thursday night."

2) Semi-regular repops allow players to load all their raiding up into large clumps that are more fun, intense, and they allow you to relax the rest of the time until you're up for another one.

[Autotune]

The funny part to me is, the "hardcore" guys want to compete and normally compete against each other, but as soon as you make it so that they only compete against each other they cry.

You want competition, you are competing against your normal competition and the new systems allow more competition to grow (you just skip a few spawns).

However, the only thing I see is people bitching that these other guilds (who don't even want to play with you) will now be able to take out targets and wear some of the same colored pixels that you are wearing.

If you're crying about not getting the targets as fast, you'll probably find that once Variance is reduced with one of the new proposals (take mine for example) you'll have to spend considerably less time at the computer tracking just to raid.

The server is already beyond a classic timeline being stuck in Kunark, you've already experienced classic EQ raiding, it's time for something else until Velious.

Shut up, accept a proposal and stop crying like a bunch of teenage girls that didn't get the right color Ipad on Christmas, even though you getting a new car for free on your 16th birthday in a few months.

[Rhambuk]

The funny part to me is, the "hardcore" guys want to compete and normally compete against each other, but as soon as you make it so that they only compete against each other they cry.

You want competition, you are competing against your normal competition and the new systems allow more competition to grow (you just skip a few spawns).

However, the only thing I see is people bitching that these other guilds (who don't even want to play with you) will now be able to take out targets and wear some of the same colored pixels that you are wearing.

If you're crying about not getting the targets as fast, you'll probably find that once Variance is reduced with one of the new proposals (take mine for example) you'll have to spend considerably less time at the computer tracking just to raid.

The server is already beyond a classic timeline being stuck in Kunark, you've already experienced classic EQ raiding, it's time for something else until Velious.

Shut up, accept a proposal and stop crying like a bunch of teenage girls that didn't get the right color Ipad on Christmas, even though you getting a new car for free on your 16th birthday in a few months.

I don't know what happened during my break, maybe it was the drugs, but I find myself agreeing and liking people I used to hate and couldn't stand.

Bravo sir, bravo.

[Frieza_Prexus]

The funny part to me is, the "hardcore" guys want to compete and normally compete against each other, but as soon as you make it so that they only compete against each other they cry.

You want competition, you are competing against your normal competition and the new systems allow more competition to grow (you just skip a few spawns).

However, the only thing I see is people bitching that these other guilds (who don't even want to play with you) will now be able to take out targets and wear some of the same colored pixels that you are wearing.

If you're crying about not getting the targets as fast, you'll probably find that once Variance is reduced with one of the new proposals (take mine for example) you'll have to spend considerably less time at the computer tracking just to raid.

The server is already beyond a classic timeline being stuck in Kunark, you've already experienced classic EQ raiding, it's time for something else until Velious.

Shut up, accept a proposal and stop crying like a bunch of teenage girls that didn't get the right color Ipad on Christmas, even though you getting a new car for free on your 16th birthday in a few months.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying that my post is some sort of sour grapes? Please elaborate.

[Millburn]

I understand where you're coming from Xasten and I think it's a discussion we need to continue having down the line. The agreement that needs to be made for tonight's deadline though has to be made with the system we have now. That's what the GM's are looking for and so far a lot of the discussions have slanted towards wanting to change the system itself instead of working with what we have.

[Autotune]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying that my post is some sort of sour grapes? Please elaborate.

No sir, this isn't against you, sorry.

Seeing all these people have nearly the same agreement, but because it's not their exact proposal they don't want to agree to it is annoying.

I guess I'm just getting irritated like some of the staff.

[Rhambuk]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying that my post is some sort of sour grapes? Please elaborate.

I don't believe it was directed towards you at all. More towards the guys that are literally crying as they scream about competition and handouts.

[Daldaen]

im not entitled to shit, im just tired of reading post after post of people bitching that the free handouts they are getting are not enough.

Oh so the dragons are just falling over dead?

They aren't using a MT warrior? Or cleric CH/spam heals? Or Rogue/Wiz DPS? Or shaman/enchanter buffs?

I'm pretty sure the bosses still have their AEs, the ability to attack and 32k HP. So they aren't asking for handouts. Just asking to play PvE.

[Autotune]

I don't believe it was directed towards you at all. More towards the guys that are literally crying as they scream about competition and handouts.

There have been people on both sides doing this as well, but the more vocal and obnoxious ones seem to be from FE and TMO (a few, not the majority).

[Frieza_Prexus]

No sir, this isn't against you, sorry.

Seeing all these people have nearly the same agreement, but because it's not their exact proposal they don't want to agree to it is annoying.

I guess I'm just getting irritated like some of the staff.

Ah, ok, that makes sense.

[citizen1080]

I am hesitant to make a new post given how frequently people have been vomiting on their keyboards and pressing Enter, but I see a large problem looming, and I don't think it has been satisfactorily addressed.

The Issue

Many of the non "Tier 1" guilds do not kill raid mobs, not because they can't compete, but because they do not have the desire or ability to compete at certain times. For example, smaller guilds are certainly capable of killing Trakanon, but they are not capable or desirous of killing him at 9 AM on a Tuesday morning. These people have demanding jobs, families, and other responsibilities that hinder their ability to respond to batphones on short notice. Many of the current ideas floating around do nothing to address the issue of spawn times, and they often set a time limit on how long the mob can be spawned before it defaults to FFA. These solutions do little to address this issue.

One of the largest outcries from the community is that the current setup prevents the casual from ever seeing, much less participating in, the end game. No one can reasonably suggest that casuals should have just as much content as the hardcore, but neither can anyone suggest that the casual should never be allowed to even glimpse the endgame. The goal should be to enable both groups in a fair manner that does not unduly impact the other.

Solving the problem: Hardcores gonna hardcore; casuals gonna casual

I see a fundamental error in most plans because they attempt to create a single sandbox where both populations are to play. This is, in my view, an incorrect approach. The rift is so drastic that it cannot be satisfactorily bridged. There must be two separate schemes. This is why I personally favor hands off periods with baglimits, and similar plans that completely segregate the different populations.

The ideal situation would be a pre-announced repop every ~2 weeks wherein no guild make take more than 2 targets, and no guild may attack the repop if it claimed more than X# of targets since the last repop. The repop time can vary to accommodate time zones, but the general thrust is that it is reasonably predictable so that players may plan around them. Players do not respond to 4 AM batphones for a variety of reasons, but a 7:00 PM Tuesday Night or an 11:00 AM Saturday morning repop would certainly make the average player's personal calendar. If casuals are to have meaningful participation, they must 1) be able to plan their schedule in advance of the raid, and 2) be protected from predatory hardcores.

NOTE: I understand that the staff has said that repops are not on the table, but we've also been told that they'd never force negotiations on the players. These are interesting times, and nothing is impossible. If we appeal logically and diplomatically it may enable otherwise impossible solutions.

Recap: Why is this a problem and what does this solve? Explain Like I'm 5

Many smaller guilds do not compete because time and commitment restrictions keep them from logging in when the mobs spawn. Many of the current proposals do nothing to solve or address this issue. By segregating raid targets into completely separate groups between the casual and the hardcore you allow the casual to make time to raid with a promise of absolutely zero interference from the hardcore crowd, and you allow the hardcore to continue their activities without harming the casual.

Well written and thought-out post. I agree completely. There is no satisfactory solution for all parties without repops on the table or as a second best solution something akin to Divinity's proposal.

Bravo sir

[citizen1080]

I understand where you're coming from Xasten and I think it's a discussion we need to continue having down the line. The agreement that needs to be made for tonight's deadline though has to be made with the system we have now. That's what the GM's are looking for and so far a lot of the discussions have slanted towards wanting to change the system itself instead of working with what we have.

The last thing we should do is hurry up and accept a sub par proposal just because a deadline is coming up. There is ZERO guarantee that the GMs will force the server to the negotiating table again so this is most likely the first and only chance to do the server some good and make it a better place for ALL the players.

[Millburn]

The last thing we should do is hurry up and accept a sub par proposal just because a deadline is coming up. There is ZERO guarantee that the GMs will force the server to the negotiating table again so this is most likely the first and only chance to do the server some good and make it a better place for ALL the players.

Totally agree with you on this Bob. I just think it's important that the discussions we do have to this end be based on the system that we have now, not a system that we want in the future. (By system I mean the mechanics and coding, not a raiding agreement) It's been a couple times now where the GM's have said something to this effect.

[Autotune]

The last thing we should do is hurry up and accept a sub par proposal just because a deadline is coming up. There is ZERO guarantee that the GMs will force the server to the negotiating table again so this is most likely the first and only chance to do the server some good and make it a better place for ALL the players.

This is only great for a short while, you can't expect that the server staff will allow this to carry on much longer.

If you want it more open, needs to be more open and if you want something more concrete, a proposal with less wiggle room.

I'd highly suggest a system that allows for both sides to make changes as they need to their own part of the raiding system.

[citizen1080]

Totally agree with you on this Bob. I just think it's important that the discussions we do have to this end be based on the system that we have now, not a system that we want in the future. (By system I mean the mechanics and coding, not a raiding agreement) It's been a couple times now where the GM's have said something to this effect.

I see your point but at the same time, and I have said this to some high level negotiators from the T1 raid guilds, they need to have 2 proposals for the GMs.

One in which there are no mechanics changes to the server where the ball is entirely in our court (which will be the worst of the two proposals in my opinion) and a SECOND proposal that includes mechanics changes via the staff. Be this variance changes, re-pops, dildos made of cheese raining from the sky, whatever.

This puts the ball in their court and hopefully they will decide to anty into the pot and help the players make this a better server.

[citizen1080]

This is only great for a short while, you can't expect that the server staff will allow this to carry on much longer.

If you want it more open, needs to be more open and if you want something more concrete, a proposal with less wiggle room.

I'd highly suggest a system that allows for both sides to make changes as they need to their own part of the raiding system.

A) Why does the staff care if we raid? There is no reason for them to rush this due to the deadline. They have proven in the past that while raider tears help sustain them, they can live without raiders. In fact I think Nilbog has stated multiple times that he would be just fine with a server with zero players...let alone raiders.

B) I don't like the idea of people changing things once the proposal is set in stone, just going to lead to more issues. At most I think there should be a 3 or 6 month review date where the proposal can be changed and ratified.

[Autotune]

A) Why does the staff care if we raid? There is no reason for them to rush this due to the deadline. They have proven in the past that while raider tears help sustain them, they can live without raiders. In fact I think Nilbog has stated multiple times that he would be just fine with a server with zero players...let alone raiders.

B) I don't like the idea of people changing things once the proposal is set in stone, just going to lead to more issues. At most I think there should be a 3 or 6 month review date where the proposal can be changed and ratified.

A) It's currently involving staff, Nilbog is already talking about instituting his own system if these guilds can't come together.

B) A system that allows Casuals to dictate their own targets and Hardcores to dictate theirs is a pretty solid system. It's the same as what we currently have (if hardcores want it that way for their targets) and it gives the casuals what they want (to be able to raid on their own terms).

[Ecguy]

Exactly on point. Not enough supply for the unique demand of this non-classic server.

Most of us have intense jobs and families now, unlike on live. If all guilds wanted to compete at the Tier-1, or whatever we're calling it, the raid scene would be much worse.

[Fael]

<<So, how do you feel about Proposition C?>>

Prop C is a better pill to swallow than the staff plan, that is for sure.

Dolic

[Arteker]

Gms should give 0 fucks about raid mobs being killer by players . be with 10 or with 200 +zerg force.

if someone petition or try for forum quest spin frap a kill trying to claim otherwise /suspension.

they want to stop bitching moans and about raid scene ? ignore everyone and begin hammering people who complain.


u wanna raid ? deal with it. now dont come to me to cry cuz guild xxxx have xxx this xxxx fucking mob.


for last weeks with all this raid shit going on off i just can think , every dude have his own one , like they have asses .


u cannot please eevryone any step u give or throw away will be itched moaned and in general victim of fucking p99 trolls .


so fuck it .

[Rhambuk]

if someone petition or try for forum quest spin frap a kill trying to claim otherwise /suspension.


I've wished this since day one, the gms were a little harsher on the playerbase.

Should be handing out suspensions for people that /petition any bullshit and if they don't get a thank you from that player for the suspension its a ban.

[radditsu]

Gms should give 0 fucks about raid mobs being killer by players . be with 10 or with 200 +zerg force.

if someone petition or try for forum quest spin frap a kill trying to claim otherwise /suspension.

they want to stop bitching moans and about raid scene ? ignore everyone and begin hammering people who complain.


u wanna raid ? deal with it. now dont come to me to cry cuz guild xxxx have xxx this xxxx fucking mob.


for last weeks with all this raid shit going on off i just can think , every dude have his own one , like they have asses .


u cannot please eevryone any step u give or throw away will be itched moaned and in general victim of fucking p99 trolls .


so fuck it .

Good job. You really know how to influence people.

[Autotune]

FYI, Nilbog does not like the zerg sized guilds. Not sure how the other staff members feel about them (if they feel anything at all).

[Rhambuk]

FYI, Nilbog does not like the zerg sized guilds. Not sure how the other staff members feel about them (if they feel anything at all).

I've always Disliked zerg guilds. I know that tmo fe ib etc whatever don't rely on numbers but that people come to them.

I just remember on live it was a disgraceful thing and youd be laughed at regardless of what you took down

[Arteker]

Good job. You really know how to influence people.

who cares rolf , you realy think u can influence people here?we talking about how to set rules in a emulated server based in a videogame wich started in 1999.


u cannot make happy everyone , they will bitch they will moan they will cry because thats how MMo community has turned over the years .

the feeling to achieve soemthing colective either be with a group of 6 players to a raid with 80 dudes is lost.

the casuals will cry for free pixels, the hardcore will cry because they cannot compete .


there is not a fucking sollution to this problem . probably at some point Gms will side with whatever make biggers numbers on their server because its like has been ever .

[Arteker]

I've always Disliked zerg guilds. I know that tmo fe ib etc whatever don't rely on numbers but that people come to them.

I just remember on live it was a disgraceful thing and youd be laughed at regardless of what you took down

the Biggest zerg i saw was from the guild Science of war in sh server, they bindrushed rallos zek in tactics with a total of 247 players . zone was so unstable he pit figth took almost 40 mins .


the best thing gms did was implement a limit on raid numbers and flags after that .

[Millburn]

who cares rolf , you realy think u can influence people here?we talking about how to set rules in a emulated server based in a videogame wich started in 1999.


u cannot make happy everyone , they will bitch they will moan they will cry because thats how MMo community has turned over the years .

the feeling to achieve soemthing colective either be with a group of 6 players to a raid with 80 dudes is lost.

the casuals will cry for free pixels, the hardcore will cry because they cannot compete .


there is not a fucking sollution to this problem . probably at some point Gms will side with whatever make biggers numbers on their server because its like has been ever .

This dude is either drunk or trolling. Go take this over to RnF, would you?

[Arteker]

This dude is either drunk or trolling. Go take this over to RnF, would you?

im not either drunk or trolling.


what im saying is no matter how many threads will post, how many ideas people will still moan and bitch .

u will not be able to get everyone happy , people keep posting and posting, at the end i doubt all will realy fixt the rift btw casuals and raiders .


i realy doubt casuals let slip this chance and raiders will moan and cringe till the last of them fall dead but the fact is .....


this is everquest .

[Rhambuk]

the Biggest zerg i saw was from the guild Science of war in sh server, they bindrushed rallos zek in tactics with a total of 247 players . zone was so unstable he pit figth took almost 40 mins .


the best thing gms did was implement a limit on raid numbers and flags after that .

I've heard of some pick up raids doing RZ with over 300 something like 375 but that's just rumor. It was done with a few hundred though. That encounter was a challenge.

[Arteker]

I've heard of some pick up raids doing RZ with over 300 something like 375 but that's just rumor. It was done with a few hundred though. That encounter was a challenge.

i will try to find you the forums and logs ,after that zerg Brenloo and Pugigi pushed the limit flag per mob and the raid limit feature lowered.

it was hugue controversial because while they did kill rallos zek u could seee naked people running to pit and dying to mobs to try to get the flag cuz rezzers have alot of bodys .and GM lead Pugigi removed the flag of everyone,

[Frieza_Prexus]

I'm seeing more threads hitting around this issue, and that's a good thing. http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133770

The basic problem is that you have two drastically different playstyles, and the only way to make them both viable is to completely segregate the populations under two different plans.

[Rheaume]

Well reasoned post.
The answer (as history shows) is to find another game. It is precisely these 'flaws/features' that other subsequent MMOs 'solved/changed' and why people left EQ for greener pastures.

A part of me understands the hardcores. They can and desire to devote more time to EQ than those who choose (it is a choice) not to do so. Original EQ raiding is more suited to their play style than to the casuals.

[whitebandit]

I don't know what happened during my break, maybe it was the drugs, but I find myself agreeing and liking people I used to hate and couldn't stand.

Bravo sir, bravo.

I find myself saying this more and more recently :-p

(Just getting back into the Game after a very long break, excited for a new change of scenery)

[SirAlvarex]

I still like the idea of doing a "Draft" at the beginning of the month to decide which guild can kill which raid target...that way guilds can concentrate on killing when their numbers are strongest and don't have to rely on 2am batphones or leaving their kid in the bathtub on a pop because pixels zomg. Oh yeah and the 40 hours of sitting at a spawn point hitting "track....track....track....track.../suicide".

Then the other half of the month the other guilds can do their FFA train fest.

This way those who play the game to try and get character advancement and to kill mobs they never got to on live get a chance. And the ones who like to track for ungodly hours can do that the other half of the month. If the FFA guys want stuff that bad, then maybe a little bit of development time can add some fudging on the drop % for the second half of the month. E.G. in February days 1-14 trak guts have a drop rate of 35%. Days 15-28 they drop at a rate of 50%. That way the FFA is still better than the rotation, given the increased difficulty.

But what do I know, I just work and drink alcohol a lot.

[Fael]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

[radditsu]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

http://welovelocalgovernment.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/south-park-because-we-can.jpg

[JayN]

Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic
Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic


Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic


Velious and undead bard would solve that problem. We are 1.5 years past the point that it would have been implemented.

Dolic

[radditsu]

http://welovelocalgovernment.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/south-park-because-we-can.jpg

[Daldolma]

I'm seeing more threads hitting around this issue, and that's a good thing. http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133770

The basic problem is that you have two drastically different playstyles, and the only way to make them both viable is to completely segregate the populations under two different plans.

That's not the basic problem. It's true, but it's not the basic problem. The basic problem is that this server has installed non-classic end-game mechanics that necessarily segregate the server population. That's not a natural or classic segregation, and it's not one that should be institutionalized.

Creating such enormous incentives for guilds to track for an obscene amount of hours and be able to log in capable raid forces at a moment's notice at any time of day is NOT classic EQ, and that is why there is such unrest. As it stands on this server, the risk/reward of tracking a raid mob decidedly favors massive zerg guilds. Any guild outside of TMO/IB/FE that even bothers to track mobs in the prime-time hours is taking a terrible gamble, statistically speaking. You're wagering 5-6 hours and your entire raid force of mains (which you must camp out at the scene to have any chance) for a -- what -- 5% chance at the mob? If that? The odds of your even having sufficient numbers to take the mob down is limited to about 6 hours out of the day, which gives you a 25% chance. And when a desirable named pops during prime time, you're probably one of ~5-ish guilds that's going to contest. So let's say 5%.

That's horrendous and has basically precluded the vast majority of the server from the raid scene. Again, that's NOT classic. You've bastardized the notion of "competition" to create a debate over whether or not we should continue to incentivize the so-called hardcore group that wants to continue devoting life-ruining hours to winning CSR-Quest, which is decidedly different from classic EverQuest.

What you should want is a mechanics system that is classic and makes it a) easier for other guilds to compete and b) essentially impossible for one guild to monopolize content. Tiny variances, server repops every 2 weeks or so, and extremely harsh rules against poop-socking/camping out raid forces. That's classic-esque.

[Fael]

Love that response radd :)

[Draagun]

The goal should be to enable both groups in a fair manner that does not unduly impact the other.

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

[Uteunayr]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

And many of us casual raiders have come to P99 as a refuge against the terrible communities that exist in games without even the slightest bit of player interdependence which brings about a drastic decline in the quality of community. We come here for a refuge from bad community, looking for actual cooperation and an enjoyable experience.

That's why Rogean's plan is likely the best. It lets each of us raid in exactly the way we want, independent of one another. You get the environment you want, I get the environment I want. VP is the sacrifice all casual/relaxed guilds give to have this, as we are surrendering our right to ever bring casual raiding to that progression. Instead, we want to be able to live out our dreams of earning our epics, getting some kills, while doing it in a positive, constructive way with a strong community.

You're not wrong, but neither are casuals like myself. Both groups exist in EQ, both groups exist as people. We all want refuge from what WoW has become, as not only is the game fucking easy to hell (the problem hardcores would have), but it also has the single most toxic gaming community until League of Legends.

I work hard when I play a game, I do everything I can to master it, but a hardcore raiding environment is not something I enjoy, in this game or in others. It makes me feel like a horrible person to be in and a part of such environments. It's alright that you don't, we're different people. What I seek is a community of like minded individuals devoted to the goal of having a great time in the best MMO created to date, at the best time it existed, rather than shutting down others. I want to earn my epic by prying the pieces I need off the corpse of Cazic-Thule and Innoruuk, and know that I earned them, not that I paid a higher tier guild that had it exclusively on lockdown, or by joining a raiding style that makes me feel like less of a person (again, no problem if you don't feel that way, we're different people). That's why those mobs are so important in the negotiations. There are few things more fundamental to the nostalgia of EverQuest Classic than being able to earn one's epic, while both highly competitive raids, and rotations/cooperative raids are seen throughout. Anyone who wants to work hard at it should have the opportunity to achieve their dreams of a time long past, and shouldn't have to sell out their principles on behalf of a game to earn some pixels when we all should be here to have fun.

Cooperation, and competition, are both core to EverQuest, and both are really good for the right people. So, how can we best create a system that allows for both systems to happen? Rogean's plan does that, by letting hardcores hardcore the way hardcore people want to hardcore, and casuals can casual in the way casuals want to casual. Instead of making hardcores become casual, or casuals become hardcore, let them each do their own thing. That's what the staff plan allows for. If the goal is competition, awesome, this allows for it. If the goal is to enjoy other people's failures, if the goal is schadenfreude, then this is not a good plan.

We have a common ground in that we don't want to go to what happened in WoW and most other MMOs, but we are each reaching for a different EQ experience. That's why I really believe the Staff proposal is the best one out there. It lets each of our groups be ourselves, amongst ourselves. Our desires are not incompatible, but they need to be given their own space to bloom in their own way, you know? We are all here to have fun, one of our groups having fun at the cost of the other isn't fair by any legitimate standard.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

Will all respect, I don't think you understand the thrust of my post.

To give you perspective, I am one of the more senior members of TMO, and I am extremely active in the hardcore environment. I am not looking for "easy mode." I am simply attempting to illustrate shortcomings in the current raid proposals. Casuals have a legitimate expectation to meaningfully, if not frequently, participate in the endgame to a reasonable extent.

The point is that both sides have valid complaints, but those complaints cannot, in my view, be satisfactorily addressed in the manner that people are now attempting. A radically different scheme is needed. To amelioriate that, I am proposing a complete segregation of the populations that maintains a classic element (repops) along side a classic theme (hardcore domination with regards to total mob kill amounts).

[Ciroco]

Many of us hardcore raiders came from EQ Live and P99 is a refuge against gaming companies that make games for casuals perhaps you'd be happier going to play WOW or some other clone of that kind.

I'm a hardcore raider from EQ Live that wants nothing to do with what "hardcore" has become here, and I'm not the only one.

[Arteker]

I'm a hardcore raider from EQ Live that wants nothing to do with what "hardcore" has become here, and I'm not the only one.

prove it

[Arteker]

That's not the basic problem. It's true, but it's not the basic problem. The basic problem is that this server has installed non-classic end-game mechanics that necessarily segregate the server population. That's not a natural or classic segregation, and it's not one that should be institutionalized.

Creating such enormous incentives for guilds to track for an obscene amount of hours and be able to log in capable raid forces at a moment's notice at any time of day is NOT classic EQ, and that is why there is such unrest. As it stands on this server, the risk/reward of tracking a raid mob decidedly favors massive zerg guilds. Any guild outside of TMO/IB/FE that even bothers to track mobs in the prime-time hours is taking a terrible gamble, statistically speaking. You're wagering 5-6 hours and your entire raid force of mains (which you must camp out at the scene to have any chance) for a -- what -- 5% chance at the mob? If that? The odds of your even having sufficient numbers to take the mob down is limited to about 6 hours out of the day, which gives you a 25% chance. And when a desirable named pops during prime time, you're probably one of ~5-ish guilds that's going to contest. So let's say 5%.

That's horrendous and has basically precluded the vast majority of the server from the raid scene. Again, that's NOT classic. You've bastardized the notion of "competition" to create a debate over whether or not we should continue to incentivize the so-called hardcore group that wants to continue devoting life-ruining hours to winning CSR-Quest, which is decidedly different from classic EverQuest.

What you should want is a mechanics system that is classic and makes it a) easier for other guilds to compete and b) essentially impossible for one guild to monopolize content. Tiny variances, server repops every 2 weeks or so, and extremely harsh rules against poop-socking/camping out raid forces. That's classic-esque.

thats called what happens when there isnt progresion and isnt a raiders fault like isnt a farmer fault when someone go to xxx dungueon camp and find you there soloing .

[kotton05]

Smh im lost for words. Xasten you're making great posts and trying to shed light but even with staff proposal guilds are still declining them-_- I say just despawn all raid mobs till velious at this point.

[Clark]

I am tired of the lot of you being dum.

lol

[Valoril]

And many of us casual raiders have come to P99 as a refuge against the terrible communities that exist in games without even the slightest bit of player interdependence which brings about a drastic decline in the quality of community. We come here for a refuge from bad community, looking for actual cooperation and an enjoyable experience.

That's why Rogean's plan is likely the best. It lets each of us raid in exactly the way we want, independent of one another.

Signed and fully agreed.
If the staff did a statistic about hours played per week, it would appear that the "competitive" guilds (now called Tier 1) represent probably 5% (or less) of the played hours. They would appear in large numbers only for 10 minutes it takes to kill some raid target. The way they play EQ with their mains (and 60 alts) is basically off-line. If you want to estimate these statistics, just do a /who and add an estimate of anon.

What makes the server a living place are the 95% of hours played by everybody else out of which probably 90% don't even post on these boards.
It seems to me an incredibly toxic idea that those 5% have the right or are even encouraged to block access to the high level content or at the very least dictate the conditions under which they generously allow the 95% to get some scraps.

If the the 5% magically disappeared, nobody would notice, P99 would still prosper and be a good place to play the game.
Without the 95% it would be a ghost town for all but a few minutes during the week.

[Draagun]

You will never get everyone to agree it's just not going to happen. The P99 staff will have to make a choice that will result in one group that will just leave the game. So comes down to whom do they want to leave more? The hardcore raiders that are here playing every day or the casuals that are just tourists here.

[Fael]

Anecdotal accounts of your /who all are not persuasive evidence of player counts val :)

For Example, i know a lot of people think that TMO purchased their alts from ib and vd, but the vast majority leveled them up. I have 4 60s and 1 52, and I've only been here for year and half. I typically don't guild tag my alts until I'm 51+.


Dolic

[Babayaaga]

There are participating raid guilds that address the situation outlined by the OP. I am in one of them.

I have a demanding career, I take courses and I have a young family. As such my time committment to any game does not equal that of someone who has no family obligations, is unemployed and has several hours daily available to play one or more games.

Yet, I see and experience raid content quite regularly. It is due to the organization of many, and my commitment to help when I am online in every and any way that I can. No, I won't gear up as quickly as someone with more time at their disposal, but I am fine with this because I have responsibilities, and my guild acknowledges and embraces this in their philosophy.

I think you would find that most raiding guilds are comprised of people like me and yourself. That said, the problem isn't about "when" things spawn, because you might be surprised to know that things will spawn when you can play.

The problem every player is faced with on P99 is more about what is required to do to engage these targets, and many people don't want to deal with the hassle that this currently entails. When a contested mob spawns and is literally engaged and killed within 4 minutes, how does one realistically compete using traditional means? This is why rules of engagement are being discussed.

Guild tags can and will change over time, but the fact will remain that there are enough players with enough characters at their disposal who can and will organize to do things like this. They do it (and in zerglike masses) because there are too many of them with too few targets to engage. Rulesets may stall this behaviour... for a while. New "problems" will appear as players find ways "around the rules". To not acknowledge this simple fact of human intelligence is folly.

[Uteunayr]

You will never get everyone to agree it's just not going to happen. The P99 staff will have to make a choice that will result in one group that will just leave the game. So comes down to whom do they want to leave more? The hardcore raiders that are here playing every day or the casuals that are just tourists here.

I'd hardly say guilds like Divinity, Taken, Bregan D'Aerth, A-Team, Europa, and every other guild that isn't TMO/IB/FE are "just tourists here". No, this isn't an indivisible issue. We have views that cannot be merged together, because we each seek something completely different.

It doesn't have to be being hardcore ruins being casual, and being casual ruins hardcore. If you let hardcores hardcore how they want in VP, and with their half of all the mobs on the server, and let the casual casual how they want on their half of all mobs except VP, each can do what they want, and each can achieve *most* of their goals. The hardcores can't get themselves off at other people's failures (hardly the main goal of all hardcores, of course), and casuals can't get into VP and turn that into a casual zone (also, hardly the main goal of all casuals).

The hardcores don't have to leave, the casuals don't have to leave. We can all raid our fair share of the server, with the hardcores having more than a fair share, giving them far more so competition remains useful. Hardcores get 4-6x more mobs to compete over in a month than the casuals do, but the casuals get enough amongst themselves that they can rotate, or they can institute friendly competitive policies that still allow their members to *EARN* their epics, rather than have to pay the top guild for it. There's more than enough mobs a month to compete over (something around 2-3 pops a day for the hardcores), and there's more than enough for the casuals (about 5 per month for each guild) to share or to compete over in a more friendly fashion.

This is not that hard of a thing. It isn't that catastrophic.

[Valoril]

Anecdotal accounts when carefully repeated and registered stop being anecdotal and begin to be a statistical sampling :) Of course I am sure the CSR have the right numbers and draw conclusions from them. I am reasonably sure that my estimate of 5% for the Tier 1 Guilds is not so far off.

As for alts, I have obviously thought about it too.
A reasonable assumption is that if you have 5 60, then the vast majority you mentionned has already 8 (most PL) what makes starting a 9th largely irrelevant both for the player, for the guild and for the contribution to total hours played what is the main parameter I consider here.

[Uteunayr]

Anecdotal accounts when carefully repeated and registered stop being anecdotal and begin to be a statistical sampling :) Of course I am sure the CSR have the right numbers and draw conclusions from them. I am reasonably sure that my estimate of 5% for the Tier 1 Guilds is not so far off.

As for alts, I have obviously thought about it too.
A reasonable assumption is that if you have 5 60, then the vast majority you mentionned has already 8 (most PL) what makes starting a 9th largely irrelevant both for the player, for the guild and for the contribution to total hours played what is the main parameter I consider here.

Well, the plural of anecdote is not data, and that would not be accepted as any form of social science. Qualitative methodology has some very strict rules of organization to how you collect and quantify your data.

However, that said, I don't think you're anywhere close to being off. You proposed a theory, and you offered the best possible way for us (as people outside of the inner system) to measure it. It may not be the best, but it is the only way we can get a snippet.

The best would be to have the inside information on which to rigorously test your theory here.

So, I don't find an issue with you bringing up your idea, just with the idea that anecdotal evidence, when carefully repeated and registered, becomes sampled data. It really doesn't come close to being considered data until you apply a framework of thought to how to interpret the empirical observations, and translate that into working data, rather than saying "This is what it looked like, so data!" Getting your framework out of your observations is sort of counter-intuitive to that, and reeks of bias.

Plus, the /who system and assumptions introduce a ton of bias.

[Frieza_Prexus]

The new plan being discussed look like it does a pretty good job of addressing the concerns I laid out in the OP.

While Tier 2 will doubtlessly work towards establishing a rotation, I think it would still be an excellent idea to pre-announce at least some of the FFA repops. Perhaps the first one of each month would be announced 24-48 hours in advance so that people can plan accordingly.

[Billfrommst1]

TMO needs more loots? 1 year later n all your mains arent geared /fail as a guild

[Frieza_Prexus]

TMO needs more loots? 1 year later n all your mains arent geared /fail as a guild

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Hailto]

TMO needs more loots? 1 year later n all your mains arent geared /fail as a guild

Do you have an extra chromosome?