Incorrect definition of casuals

[Durka]

I think a lot of people who play this game excessively have started to define raid guilds as 'casuals' inappropriately.

About 13 years ago, I raided 3-4 days a week in the top guild on my server. That was considered hardcore back then. We had 30-40 online in kunark and 40-60 online in velious during primetimes.

I am now in a guild Taken, in which I log in to raid 3-6 times a week and actively raid / level / farm. I also have more alts than I did back then. I consider myself hardcore at this point - along with many of my guildmates. BDA & A-Team also log in just as much and they are on par with the 'hardcore' title.

Now, in my day, there were a select few who 'lived' in EQ and they didn't do much else in life. Those people were in my guild and they pretty much had everything there was to be had in the game. Well deserved because they put in their time and liked to craft / quest. Poopsocking did not exist on my server then.

Those excessive hardcores existed on many of the original live servers. Now that mentality is on P99 and those players call themselves hardcore. No, its not hardcore, its excessive hardcore. Taken / BDA / A-Team are hardcore players (I think all of these guilds have a few excessive hardcore players as well).

I just cannot stand by and watch these continual posts about 'casuals' pop up attacking our dedication & collective right to play the game. How often is it that a troublemaker on this server is a extreme/excessive player vs. a hardcore player? I guess you all know that answer.

So let's stop bashing real hardcore players, keep the server friendly and if you choose to play in excess it doesn't entitle you to everything. You are not more important than anyone else.

[JayN]

Back in the day, in my guild (classic) we raided everyday we had a chance too; although we had many many members from all time zones.... So im guessing that is why we were not limited to smaller raid time frames, we accepted everyone. Kind of like America /dream

[BlackTriad]

Yes.

While we're at it why don't peeps stop attaching derogatory terms to people who's play-style is different from theirs.

[Hitpoint]

People choose to spend their time playing EQ in different ways. If you are in TMO and FE/IB and you choose spend two hours tracking one night, another person in Taken could have spent two hours leveling some alt or camping something to sell in EC. I honestly don't know why "hardcores" are hated on so much for choosing to waste their time differently than others. Raiders and groupers/soloers should be the different categories of people, not casual and hardcore. I bet the average played time of people in my guild is actually far less than some "casual" guilds. Logging in for batphones once a day doesn't exactly make you more "hardcore" than anyone else. It just means you care more about being at raid kills than leveling alts or making money.

[JayN]

People choose to spend their time playing EQ in different ways. If you are in TMO and FE/IB and you choose spend two hours tracking one night, another person in Taken could have spent two hours leveling some alt or camping something to sell in EC. I honestly don't know why "hardcores" are hated on so much for choosing to waste their time differently than others. Raiders and groupers/soloers should be the different categories of people, not casual and hardcore. I bet the average played time of people in my guild is actually far less than some "casual" guilds. Logging in for batphones once a day doesn't exactly make you "hardcore."

It really doesnt take much time either; casual players usually have way more time played unless you are a contender for the longest afk online club; I think a bard still holds the title

[goshozal]

Hi there,

Casual and hardcore aren't terms with hard definitions. They're relative terms.

See Heebo's P99 Moral Compass.

[Durka]

I agree - attaching labels is probably just the wrong practice altogether. Dedicated vs casual seem more appropriate. I myself play in excess, but I am not entitled any more than anyone else.

It is true that many just log in to track/batphone and that is what those players dedicate their time to vs leveling an alt or just grouping up. Hitpoint made a very good point there ;-)

[BlackTriad]

Hi there,

Casual and hardcore aren't terms with hard definitions. They're relative terms.

See Heebo's P99 Moral Compass.

Then what do you think about neck-beards and obama-phone carebears?

[Barkingturtle]

Fantastic observation, Durka. I too have noticed how here on Project99 a great many words have their meanings perverted.

For instance, people say "competing" when they mean "compensating".

They say "dedication" when they mean "obsession".

"Effort" when they mean "rote motions".

You've really gotta pay close attention to keep pace with the evolving vernacular.

[Durka]

Then what do you think about neck-beards and obama-phone carebears?

I think those are crappy slanders used by people who feel they lost out on something.

[Daldaen]

Best definition:

X or XX Hours spent per week online.

[goshozal]

Then what do you think about neck-beards and obama-phone carebears?

Sounds to me like those are derogatory terms that don't have much to do with the way that "casual" and "hardcore" are used in these discussions. Isn't language wonderful?

[Durka]

Fantastic observation, Durka. I too have noticed how here on Project99 a great many words have their meanings perverted.

For instance, people say "competing" when they mean "compensating".

They say "dedication" when they mean "obsession".

"Effort" when they mean "rote motions".

You've really gotta pay close attention to keep pace with the evolving vernacular.

I LOL'd - because I was the 'obsession' type back in the day (hell probably even today)

[Bones]

if you choose to play in excess it doesn't entitle you to everything. You are not more important than anyone else.
trufax

[BlackTriad]

Sounds to me like those are derogatory terms that don't have much to do with the way that "casual" and "hardcore" are used in these discussions. Isn't language wonderful?

It is when it's understood.

[goshozal]

Oh, implications are fun, too.

So tell me, BlackTriad: where exactly is the line between casual and hardcore?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I agree with this post. Time and technology contributes to the change. Both for more hardcore, to less hardcore.

How many people, good players, had to suffer from bad dialup back in 2000? How many had cellphones?

3-4 nights a week was hardcore. Plus I will add this observation. I seem to remember raid nights going quite long. Log in at 5est, go to 1-3am was not unusual. Log on, kill shit, log off, did not exist yet. I am sure there were technological and social reasons for that. Not least of which, how can we forget just how damn often, a server would crash, or a router would go down and you would lose all of your players from certain time zones?

In a sense, 3-4 days a week used to be more hardcore. Because those were long nights.

[Durka]

I agree with this post. Time and technology contributes to the change. Both for more hardcore, to less hardcore.

How many people, good players, had to suffer from bad dialup back in 2000? How many had cellphones?

3-4 nights a week was hardcore. Plus I will add this observation. I seem to remember raid nights going quite long. Log in at 5est, go to 1-3am was not unusual. Log on, kill shit, log off, did not exist yet. I am sure there were technological and social reasons for that. Not least of which, how can we forget just how damn often, a server would crash, or a router would go down and you would lose all of your players from certain time zones?

In a sense, 3-4 days a week used to be more hardcore. Because those were long nights.

Oh wow the long nights....but I had great times!

Yes, technology and knowledge of the game itself have been the clutch on the p99 experiment. We all know how to play the game too well and we have less problems than we had back in those days. Very good observation there. Its funny, because we raided fear a few nights ago, cleared it in just under 2 hours with a small group. We use to have 30-40 in fear and cleared it in 6+ hours! Pretty amazing how things are today vs yesteryear.

[BlackTriad]

Oh, implications are fun, too.

So tell me, BlackTriad: where exactly is the line between casual and hardcore?

I don't draw a line between the two as they can easily co-exist. The problems as far as this dramatic discussion are concerned is when some people who consider themselves in one faction or the other believe they deserve more than the opposition due to their own greed, lust for power, lust for bragging rights, or the lack of motivation to do what is reasonably required.

There is no need to rattle our sabers. Everyone just needs to let go of their sense of entitlement- EVERYONE. SHARE.

[Barkingturtle]

So tell me, BlackTriad: where exactly is the line between casual and hardcore?

The line, in my opinion, is the batphone tactic.

The game should slot nicely into my free time.

It should not wake me up at night. Ever. It should not disrupt my business nor my social contracts. Ever.

Somehow, stipulating these totally reasonable conditions means I'm a socialist carebear.

[goshozal]

I don't draw a line between the two as they can easily co-exist. The problems as far as this dramatic discussion are concerned is when some people who consider themselves in one faction or the other believe they deserve more than the opposition due to their own greed, lust for power, lust for bragging rights, or the lack of motivation to do what is reasonably required.

There is no need to rattle our sabers. Everyone just needs to let go of their sense of entitlement- EVERYONE. SHARE.

The line, in my opinion, is the batphone tactic.

The game should slot nicely into my free time.

It should not wake me up at night. Ever. It should not disrupt my business nor my social contracts. Ever.

Somehow, stipulating these totally reasonable conditions means I'm a socialist carebear.

This game is a persistent world MMO. That means that the game continues right on, even when you and I are not logged in. Barkingturtle, while I can understand that this is how you want to play the game, can you honestly say that it's fair to everyone else? I'm not calling you a socialist carebear. I'm just saying that, if the game must cater to your stipulations, then what you're really asking is for everyone else to work their time around yours.

[Sinestria]

This game is a persistent world MMO. That means that the game continues right on, even when you and I are not logged in. Barkingturtle, while I can understand that this is how you want to play the game, can you honestly say that it's fair to everyone else? I'm not calling you a socialist carebear. I'm just saying that, if the game must cater to your stipulations, then what you're really asking is for everyone else to work their time around yours.

I don't think that there is one person on this server that wants to be woken up by a batphone to inevitably lose out on dragon pixels.

[Durka]

I don't think that there is one person on this server that wants to be woken up by a batphone to inevitably lose out on dragon pixels.

Then don't batphone TBH. Its your choice.

[Barkingturtle]

I'm just saying that, if the game must cater to your stipulations, then what you're really asking is for everyone else to work their time around yours.

At least I'm not forcing them to acquiesce.

It's just not the way it was. The extremes here are ratcheted way up and it's a bummer to the people trying to play a game rather than win a game. I remember scheduled raids, not invasive ones. It's a sad, absurd length that a baffling number of players are willing to suffer.

[Hitpoint]

The line, in my opinion, is the batphone tactic.

The game should slot nicely into my free time.

It should not wake me up at night. Ever. It should not disrupt my business nor my social contracts. Ever.

Ok I'm going to explain the batphone for those who don't know how it works. Since there are obviously a lot of misconceptions.

For starters you never have to answer a batphone, that's why there's probably 100+ people on it but 30 people respond for targets. Many of those are choosing not to log in for it.

Next, you never have to be woken up by a batphone. With ours you can choose between what hours you recieve a text. If i want to sleep at night, I can easily make 11:00 pm - 7:00 am off limits and I'll get no texts from the batphone during those hours.

In short, you choose when to receive the texts and you choose when to respond. It can absolutely fit into your free time, and in no way has to be an inconvenience. In fact, it's for convenience. If you have a limited amount of time to play, batphone makes sure you can make the most of it.

[goshozal]

I don't think that there is one person on this server that wants to be woken up by a batphone to inevitably lose out on dragon pixels.

I have social contracts. I'm a regional manager for a healthcare company, which means I work monday to friday 9-5 and I'm on-call for problems that arise because healthcare is 24/7/365.

I am willing to wake up to batphones, even if that means losing a race to FE. If I wasn't, I wouldn't be in TMO, and I would accept that I probably wouldn't be able to compete within the established server rules for mobs like Gods & VP.

I'll even point out that my job/life requirements have increased immensely since I became a full member in TMO, and that I have not gotten hardly any loot since my raid attendance has dropped tremendously since April 2013. I accept this. Why should everyone else have to compete for mobs for my benefit? Why should FE or IB or any guild have to wait for me to log in and go kill a dragon when their needs and time schedules are just as valid and arbitrary as mine?

The reason I take that stance is because I understand that this game does not have to give me anything.

[Durka]

At least I'm not forcing them to acquiesce.

It's just not the way it was. The extremes here are ratcheted way up and it's a bummer to the people trying to play a game rather than win a game. I remember scheduled raids, not invasive ones. It's a sad, absurd length that a baffling number of players are willing to suffer.

Yes, this server is a bit different from the classic experience and it will never turn back time. We just need to find a way to play with each other nicely, regardless of what level of player you are. Hate to say it, if you want to do end-game content, you gotta answer that batphone. The server wont ever be casual. This is a server of ALL of the hardcore raiders back in the day. Hell, some of these players were kids while they watched their parents hardcore raid. Its in their blood (lol).

Ya cant take a buncha uberguilded likeminded types and put em on one server and expect the competition to be weak. FOH couldnt handle this server, I am positive on that one.

[Barkingturtle]

The reason I take that stance is because I understand that this game does not have to give me anything.

We differ here. The game owes me a good time. It stops providing that and we're breaking up. Luckily, it gives me that even without raiding. Of course, our relationship could always be better.

And honestly, the batphone thing is just me I guess. I can't imagine ever answering a call, even within some predefined parameters. Because the only time I want to play Everquest is that time I decide to log in. I am just not that into killing dragons. This does mean I am casual scum, despite the fact I could easily schedule multiple hours to play, every day.

[citizen1080]

My post from another thread that is relevant.

Not attacking you Jeremy, just saw this as a good spot to comment on this.


Many of us want to raid. Raid like we did on live. However, we have no interest in the current meta game that rules p99. The raid scene here is NOTHING like live was on any of the servers I played on. I for one don't want welfare mobs. But the current meta game required to see raid pixels is retarded. Just because we haven't been "hardcore' raiders on p99 in the past doesn't make our opinions any less valid.

You have stated many times that P99 is the first time you personally have played EQ. This is the only raiding you know. And honestly that sucks man, this is such a shit show compared to live it isn't even worth participating in for many of us.

Anyways...carry on

[goshozal]

We differ here. The game owes me a good time. It stops providing that and we're breaking up. Luckily, it gives me that even without raiding. Of course, our relationship could always be better.

And honestly, the batphone thing is just me I guess. I can't imagine ever answering a call, even within some predefined parameters. Because the only time I want to play Everquest is that time I decide to log in. I am just not that into killing dragons. This does mean I am casual scum, despite the fact I could easily schedule multiple hours to play, every day.

My post from another thread that is relevant.

Not attacking you Jeremy, just saw this as a good spot to comment on this.


Many of us want to raid. Raid like we did on live. However, we have no interest in the current meta game that rules p99. The raid scene here is NOTHING like live was on any of the servers I played on. I for one don't want welfare mobs. But the current meta game required to see raid pixels is retarded. Just because we haven't been "hardcore' raiders on p99 in the past doesn't make our opinions any less valid.

You have stated many times that P99 is the first time you personally have played EQ. This is the only raiding you know. And honestly that sucks man, this is such a shit show compared to live it isn't even worth participating in for many of us.

Anyways...carry on

Casuals are not scum, anymore than hardcore players are.

The only thing I'm trying to get across here is that these are perceived relative terms. I'm in TMO, but I actually consider myself casual!

The game doesn't owe anything to either camp. What each camp owes each other is, in Xasten's words, a meta game that rewards the hardcores for their willingness to compete, while respecting the casual player's desire to participate.'

Unfortunately, as I said to you previously Bob, this server is nothing like live. 3 years of Kunark has given rise to a completely unsustainable raiding population for the number of available targets. This is not the fault of the casuals or the hardcores. And this shortage of targets per capita has led to vast new heights of what we refer to as "hardcore."

I still boggle at the idea of the players being forced to "solve" a problem that they did not necessarily create. This is why I was so strongly supportive of Loraen's repop ideas: because I believe that the problem can be lessened only by an increase of available targets per capita. Velious or repops, or both.

But making it into a character battle between two arbitrarily defined camps is woefully myopic.

[webrunner5]

If you are are a person that has say two level 60 toons you probably spend less time raiding on them then people spend leveling up on say a 50 toon.

Who is Hard Core? The person that spends 20 hours a week leveling or 20 hours a week tracking, killing top end content?? Seems the same to me but the 60's are being bashed to hell on here. :mad:

[Fuddwin]

I'm in FE and I'm casual!

Poor Hardcores (Variety)

[Durka]

The original point of the thread was to introduce a new way of thinking about other players. If you see someone with a guild tag <The Mystical Order> some people directly assume they are in-game 100 hours a week. Then you have individuals who see a person with a guild tag like <The Alliance> and think that the player is weak and only raids crushbone (thats a joke btw...).

Make no mistake, guild tag doesnt define the players ability, dedication or entitlement. It's good to hear respect from both ends though.

[SirAlvarex]

For me back in the day, the definition between the two were:

Casual: Plays the game on their own time, when they can fit it into their schedule.

Hardcore: Plays the game in place of doing other things in their life. The game is an important aspect.

You then get fine lines with the definitions, like "so a disabled person who can only reliable play a video game like everquest does so 100 hours, is he casual because he can't do anything else?" Eh, well, if EQ is a major part of his life then he is hardcore. Same thing with a person who only plays 5 hours a week, but that entire 5 hours is the result of responding to a batphone. They actively block out time in their day to play a game.

I'd say most people in the "2nd tier" raid guilds or higher would be categorized as Hardcore players. They play the game in place of doing other things in life. Is this bad? Not necessarily. There are good people here, and socializing in a game vs socializing in a bar is a much better prospect for many, so it is no way a bad term.

But lets all be honest, the fact that any of us play a 15 year old game makes us pretty hardcore. And i don't even play that much anymore :/

[citizen1080]

Casuals are not scum, anymore than hardcore players are.

The only thing I'm trying to get across here is that these are perceived relative terms. I'm in TMO, but I actually consider myself casual!

The game doesn't owe anything to either camp. What each camp owes each other is, in Xasten's words, a meta game that rewards the hardcores for their willingness to compete, while respecting the casual player's desire to participate.'

Unfortunately, as I said to you previously Bob, this server is nothing like live. 3 years of Kunark has given rise to a completely unsustainable raiding population for the number of available targets. This is not the fault of the casuals or the hardcores. And this shortage of targets per capita has led to vast new heights of what we refer to as "hardcore."

I still boggle at the idea of the players being forced to "solve" a problem that they did not necessarily create. This is why I was so strongly supportive of Loraen's repop ideas: because I believe that the problem can be lessened only by an increase of available targets per capita. Velious or repops, or both.

But making it into a character battle between two arbitrarily defined camps is woefully myopic.

I agree with a lot of this. I too supported Loraen's repop idea and feel its the fairest solution and the only one that will actually make the server a better place. Not to mention a hell of a lot more fun. Which according to the Devs/GMs is the whole point of this.