Bandwagon Proposal Thread.

[Alarti0001]

Simple Fair Solution

Tier A Guilds: FE/IB, TMO
Tier B Guilds: All the rest of youzes


1/2 of Inny/Fay/Sev/Gore/Tal/Naggy/Vox are open for Tier B guilds to kill as they see fit. Make a rotation, compete. Your choice!
1/2 of Draco's/Maestro's are open for Tier B guilds.

Tier B guilds may choose to compete on the other 1/2 of these mobs as they want without punishment.

Tier B guilds may compete in VP and at Trak/VS/CT as they want without punishment.

Tier B guilds will become Tier A guilds for a period of 30 days if they meet any of the following conditions. Kill a VP dragon, Kill 3 Trakanon's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 Venril Sathir's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 CT's in a 30 day period.

No Poopsocking(Logged in at or near a spawn) Tracking obviously permitted.
No DA engages(this can be a flat out policy or a time limit(36 seconds))


*** Changes/Clarifications. Tier B targets raid rules can be defined by Tier B guilds. If you want to allow pooping.. go for it.
Possible change allow semi-socks for Tier B raiders during Tier A Spawn windows.(Considering)



This gives out roughly 22 raid mobs to the server per month(not competed on by FE/IB or TMO)
The rest of the mobs are competitive.

This allows "casual scum" to have lots of raid encounters, but it also allows the best raids to be competitive. This is a happy balance between full competition and rotations.

Review, and when you do explain your position, what you would like to change, and the reasoning behind your dissent.

[Nirgon]

It does what I'd personally want it to. It keeps some competition at the high level while removing soul draining poop socking.

It guarantees mobs for the other guilds, a 100% improvement.

Unfortunately I think tier B is the problem. They are going to want an uncontested open shot at every mob. However, as they are yet to draft anything even as quick as this, who really knows?

We can only guess and wonder.

How long did it take you to write this up? How long has it been for them to consider and try to work things out amongst the 5 of them?

Divinity has always been an anti-toxic element for this server. I cannot speak more highly for their respect of other players. Taken has tons of great people in it. I've grouped with BDA guys who are in some cases as skilled at their roles as TMO players, with just less time investment. The A-Team is home of the some of most exceptional solo/duo artists who have an infinitely strong grasp of game mechanics when I've talked to them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are scum or filth by any stretch. I'm just saying they need to get something going or they are going to sit with their basically 0 mobs they've always had. Right now, I see nothing other than saying "no" to everything without putting something forth.

[Hitpoint]

Alarti with probably the best proposal that I've seen yet. Don't really care about DA stalling, but whatever.

[Kope]

However, as they are yet to draft anything even as quick as this, who really knows?

This is incorrect, the "casual" proposal has been discussed between guild leaders and there was a 3+ hour discussion yesterday with another one planned on Wednesday.

[nambar]

This does nothing but kick the ball down the road while allowing TMO / IB to return to raiding immediately.

Force these knuckleheads into an agreement while you have them by the throat and say no thanks. Thank you. God bless.

[Nirgon]

The "know-it-all" actually wasn't aware of something?!? the horror!

I know nothing has been posted or signed and you've had more than enough time to get things going.

I didn't say you didn't discuss anything (in fact, you've been doing a lot "discussing" disagreeing with everything). I said you have nothing to show for it (ironic/the horror).

[Kope]

I didn't say you didn't discuss anything. I said you have nothing to show for it (ironic/the horror).

I know you weren't responding to me and I'm sorry for quoting this in this manner, but there are things to show for it, just not publicly (Look at how these boards have exploded, a public discussion will get nowhere).

I promise you it is the intention of the debates to not favor a single party but to come to a decision the entire server can live with. It's not to stop TMO and IB/FE from raiding, nor is it to promote any single or group of guilds.

[JayN]

rogean just shut p99 down, this is loler'caust happening to the server!

Somehow you expect hardcores to fall in line with casuals; it will never happen.

Just like casuals will never become hardcore.

You will need switch the the server to tokens or instances.

Its obvious you do not like competition, just get rid of it and be done with it.

[baramur]

Add in a solution to let guilds try vs/trak every now and then without tmo/fe/ib and this proposal is solid. How can people still complain when the guilds that held 97 percent of all raid content is now saying they not raid almost half of raid content at all.

[Nirgon]

I'm responding to Writ3r who, I'm sure, thinks I only want TMO to get everything again.

[Kope]

I'm responding to Writ3r who, I'm sure, thinks I only want TMO to get everything again.

I realize that which is why I apologized to you, it wasn't your intention to bring me into that discussion. I did feel that I needed to point out that there is progress and there is something to show, just not publicly yet (see some of the responses in this thread to see why, unfortunately :( )

[Spitty]

Nice. I really like the proposal, and Nirgon follows right up with solid points.

[Lune]

competition

You keep using that word to describe how things work here.

Is it competition to race your mate dragging your ballsacks across a field of broken glass?

Is it competition when someone brings donuts into work and you rush to them in a frenzied sprint to grab as many as you can?

Or when you try to hail a taxi and you're screaming "FTE! FTE!", and when one shows up you throw a javelin at the driver, then shove and claw your way inside?

Then at the end of the day you go home to your dumpster and alleycat family, and say "Boy, that was fun. I sure bested all of them. Hailed four fucking cabs". Then you drift off to sleep wondering whether you'll make it through the night without a restauranteur dumping a half eaten pizza in the alley, to which you'll need to race a pack of stray dogs.

But you'll sleep comfortably, until then; after all, you relish the competition.

[Nirgon]

I realize that which is why I apologized to you, it wasn't your intention to bring me into that discussion. I did feel that I needed to point out that there is progress and there is something to show, just not publicly yet (see some of the responses in this thread to see why, unfortunately :( )

Right, but how complicated does this really need to be?

What is so complicated about this when Alarti can throw together a paragraph in I would guess less than an hour? Especially when I think its just going to be a full rotation calendar when things like member attendence from casual guilds/# of current VP keys are a huge issue.

A weekly calendar can be made and voted on by heads from each guild, especially based on their current and most deserving members' epic quest completion. I'm not completely against that.

But you guys also need to get after Rogean or the devs here to remove variance outside VP/Trak. It creates artificial delays (esp if you think long term # of mobs that will spawn per year as a result) that are totally unnecessary in a calendar/"guaranteed you get it" system.

[Nirgon]

Don't put words or actions in my mouth, bro.


It's called an assumption.

I said you have nothing to show for it.

So, you don't have anything to show for it? Ok. Nothing to argue with my point.

[Alarti0001]

It does what I'd personally want it to. It keeps some competition at the high level while removing soul draining poop socking.

It guarantees mobs for the other guilds, a 100% improvement.

Unfortunately I think tier B is the problem. They are going to want an uncontested open shot at every mob. However, as they are yet to draft anything even as quick as this, who really knows?

Raid guilds are going to want 100% contested content. This is the nature of compromise.

We can only guess and wonder.

How long did it take you to write this up? How long has it been for them to consider and try to work things out amongst the 5 of them?

5 mins.. maybe.

Divinity has always been an anti-toxic element for this server. I cannot speak more highly for their respect of other players. Taken has tons of great people in it. I've grouped with BDA guys who are in some cases as skilled at their roles as TMO players, with just less time investment. The A-Team is home of the some of most exceptional solo/duo artists who have an infinitely strong grasp of game mechanics when I've talked to them.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are scum or filth by any stretch. I'm just saying they need to get something going or they are going to sit with their basically 0 mobs they've always had. Right now, I see nothing other than saying "no" to everything without putting something forth.

They have put out quite of bit of ridiculous proposals regarding point systems, kill limits, and rotations.

[Alarti0001]

This does nothing but kick the ball down the road while allowing TMO / IB to return to raiding immediately.



No it increased the mobs available to casuals guilds by 1000% actually.

[Nirgon]

They have put out quite of bit of ridiculous proposals regarding point systems, kill limits, and rotations.

Ya I saw those, seemed like a lot of brainstorming and nothing official.

Whereas FE/TMO agreed to something, officially, and put it forth.

5 minutes Alarti can put together something I think is fair. How many casual guilds does it take to say raid calendar?

[Nirgon]

lol you're an idiot

Look! I told him he had nothing concrete, proved it and then he got upset.

Didn't see that coming!

[Elmarnieh]

No guilds - all raiding is pickup.

[Alarti0001]

Add in a solution to let guilds try vs/trak every now and then without tmo/fe/ib and this proposal is solid. How can people still complain when the guilds that held 97 percent of all raid content is now saying they not raid almost half of raid content at all.

TOP content should be 100% competitive. VS/Trak/CT not being open is what allows so many raid mobs to be given up. Every raid guild is 100% welcome to compete on those mobs. It's really not too difficult to get an FTE on VS and kill it, or Trak for that matter. You just have to... try.

[tristantio]

I still like the guild DKP idea I came up with:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133187

[Kope]

Right, but how complicated does this really need to be?

What is so complicated about this when Alarti can throw together a paragraph in I would guess less than an hour? Especially when I think its just going to be a full rotation calendar when things like member attendence from casual guilds/# of current VP keys are a huge issue.

A weekly calendar can be made and voted on by heads from each guild, especially based on their current and most deserving members' epic quest completion. I'm not completely against that.

But you guys also need to get after Rogean or the devs here to remove variance outside VP/Trak. It creates artificial delays (esp if you think long term # of mobs that will spawn per year as a result) that are totally unnecessary in a calendar/"guaranteed you get it" system.

Again, it's got to be complicated because look at the basic backlash of a "simple" solution that was put together in 5 minutes.

Getting so many different people to come to a compromise no one likes but everyone can live with is a difficult negotiation process. When you have 5 or 6 independent bodies discussing a solution to a problem from either end of the spectrum it takes time and deliberation.

I'm not trying to put down your idea, I'm just letting you know your guild as well as mine are working on a solution, and it will be what it is. No one knows what the final solution is going to look like yet, but things are progressing and something will come out of all of this.

[Nirgon]

Digging everything out of 2 pages. Too much effort, I totally understand.

Sorry for not being psychic and knowing of your dawdlings trying to make a system that is already well constructed and presented for you.

Still, you have put forth nothing. I'll wait.

[Alarti0001]

You keep using that word to describe how things work here.

Is it competition to race your mate dragging your ballsacks across a field of broken glass?

Is it competition when someone brings donuts into work and you rush to them in a frenzied sprint to grab as many as you can?

You have fallen victim to misunderstanding. Donuts are hardly scare, or highly desired. If I want a donut I can run to the store. I can not make Trakanon pop with a Donals BP. You are trying to equate diminishing returns on something that isn't scare to something that is.

Or when you try to hail a taxi and you're screaming "FTE! FTE!", and when one shows up you throw a javelin at the driver, then shove and claw your way inside?

You have obviously never been to New York.

Then at the end of the day you go home to your dumpster and alleycat family, and say "Boy, that was fun. I sure bested all of them. Hailed four fucking cabs". Then you drift off to sleep wondering whether you'll make it through the night without a restauranteur dumping a half eaten pizza in the alley, to which you'll need to race a pack of stray dogs.

But you'll sleep comfortably, until then; after all, you relish the competition.


Thanks for your constructive input. I have come to expect this quality of debate from you. If the sarcasm was missed, I have basically said. Shut the fuck up unless you have something constructive to say :)

[Alarti0001]

Again, it's got to be complicated because look at the basic backlash of a "simple" solution that was put together in 5 minutes.

Getting so many different people to come to a compromise no one likes but everyone can live with is a difficult negotiation process. When you have 5 or 6 independent bodies discussing a solution to a problem from either end of the spectrum it takes time and deliberation.

I'm not trying to put down your idea, I'm just letting you know your guild as well as mine are working on a solution, and it will be what it is. No one knows what the final solution is going to look like yet, but things are progressing and something will come out of all of this.

Backlash is to be expected. What I hope people realize is this is a compromise and as such they must be willing to negotiate. I was offering up 22 raid mobs a month for free. That is a significant loss to TMO's or FE/IB's raid totals. Actually its a huge fucking loss. I would expect other guilds to recognize that and realize what they are getting even if its not everything they want. Only children demand everything they want.
"mine! MINE MINE !"

[Triangle]

Coming from someone who does not like Alarti: this proposal is fair enough from a casual raider's perspective. I support this and appreciate you taking th etime to put together something along these lines.

[Mac Dretti]

Designated hitters from each guild have to play a league of legends bracket tournament to decide mob rotation per week. Winner gets first pick 2nd gets 2nd etc until all mobs are accounted for.

Wins losses on a point system for future seeding.

[Kope]

Backlash is to be expected. What I hope people realize is this is a compromise and as such they must be willing to negotiate. I was offering up 22 raid mobs a month for free. That is a significant loss to TMO's or FE/IB's raid totals. Actually its a huge fucking loss. I would expect other guilds to recognize that and realize what they are getting even if its not everything they want. Only children demand everything they want.
"mine! MINE MINE !"

Alarti, what in any of my posts has eluded to me or any casual guild demanding everything?

Every single time I've tried to get you guys to understand what's going on I've explained it as a deliberation between the leadership of many guilds deciding on what everyone can live with, but what no one loved.

Please stop trying to portray myself and the rest of the casual guilds as children when I'm the one trying to talk to you as an adult, unless you would prefer me to discuss it like a child with you?

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, what in any of my posts has eluded to me or any casual guild demanding everything?

Every single time I've tried to get you guys to understand what's going on I've explained it as a deliberation between the leadership of many guilds deciding on what everyone can live with, but what no one loved.

Please stop trying to portray myself and the rest of the casual guilds as children when I'm the one trying to talk to you as an adult, unless you would prefer me to discuss it like a child with you?

Just cause I quote you doesn't mean all of my post is directed at you.

[Fuddwin]

You just have to... try.

This sums EVERYTHING up...

Poor Alarti (Good Post/Variety)

[Splorf22]

You keep using that word to describe how things work here.

Is it competition to race your mate dragging your ballsacks across a field of broken glass?

Is it competition when someone brings donuts into work and you rush to them in a frenzied sprint to grab as many as you can?

Or when you try to hail a taxi and you're screaming "FTE! FTE!", and when one shows up you throw a javelin at the driver, then shove and claw your way inside?

Then at the end of the day you go home to your dumpster and alleycat family, and say "Boy, that was fun. I sure bested all of them. Hailed four fucking cabs". Then you drift off to sleep wondering whether you'll make it through the night without a restauranteur dumping a half eaten pizza in the alley, to which you'll need to race a pack of stray dogs.

But you'll sleep comfortably, until then; after all, you relish the competition.

This must be Motec, and yes, the points are very apt

[bizzum]

I actually like this as an alternative to the other proposal we had. Not bad at all.

[Razdeline]

Simple Fair Solution

Tier A Guilds: FE/IB, TMO
Tier B Guilds: All the rest of youzes


1/2 of Inny/Fay/Sev/Gore/Tal/Naggy/Vox are open for Tier B guilds to kill as they see fit. Make a rotation, compete. Your choice!
1/2 of Draco's/Maestro's are open for Tier B guilds.

Tier B guilds may choose to compete on the other 1/2 of these mobs as they want without punishment.

Tier B guilds may compete in VP and at Trak/VS/CT as they want without punishment.

Tier B guilds will become Tier A guilds for a period of 30 days if they meet any of the following conditions. Kill a VP dragon, Kill 3 Trakanon's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 Venril Sathir's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 CT's in a 30 day period.

No Poopsocking(Logged in at or near a spawn) Tracking obviously permitted.
No DA engages(this can be a flat out policy or a time limit(36 seconds))



This gives out roughly 22 raid mobs to the server per month(not competed on by FE/IB or TMO)
The rest of the mobs are competitive.

This allows "casual scum" to have lots of raid encounters, but it also allows the best raids to be competitive. This is a happy balance between full competition and rotations.

Review, and when you do explain your position, what you would like to change, and the reasoning behind your dissent.

This is a good idea, however, 1/2 of these mobs that are "left" up need to have a time limit.

For instance, if an "A" tiered guild does not down Trak in "X" amount of time, then "B" guild can have a shot at it, although it may not be their turn. AND same vise/versa.

The philosophy behind this is, that the competitive spirit is not lost in raiding. No matter how fair, if there is no need for competition globally the raid scene will become stagnant.

[Alarti0001]

This is a good idea, however, 1/2 of these mobs that are "left" up need to have a time limit.

For instance, if an "A" tiered guild does not down Trak in "X" amount of time, then "B" guild can have a shot at it, although it may not be their turn. AND same vise/versa.

The philosophy behind this is, that the competitive spirit is not lost in raiding. No matter how fair, if there is no need for competition globally the raid scene will become stagnant.

I agree 100% on a timelimit. I just didn't think to add one. However, all "A" Tiered mobs are competitive always. This timelimit would apply to "B" tiered guilds. 6hrs should be more than enough?

[Spitty]

Indeed.

I don't know why simplicity is evil. The billion posts with a billion rules and a billion exceptions are insane.

Regardless of what I think of Alarti, his proposal is valid. It is folly to ignore a good idea just because you don't care for the person delivering it.

[Hitpoint]

I really like this idea, and am trying to have more people look at it.

Imo there should be a time limit to engage on all these proposals.

[Aaron]

BDA should be Tier A

Just checked:
BDA currently has 19 players online 50-60
FE has 9
IB has 4
TMO has 5

(that are not anon, obviously)

Either way, BDA is huge, with many high level and experienced players and should be treated as such.

[uygi]

This does nothing but kick the ball down the road while allowing TMO / IB to return to raiding immediately.

Force these knuckleheads into an agreement while you have them by the throat and say no thanks. Thank you. God bless.

It doesn't kick anything down the road, it's the guilds that are willing to work harder offering to leave mobs for others to kill, counter to the entire structure and driving force behind those guilds. If you think Rogean's goal is to punish any guild here, you're crazy. TMO received punishment and is to be brought back into the fold and offered peace. I have no idea what Rogean's reaction would be to the casuals demanding more than the other guilds are willing to yield. My interpretation is there has to be an agreement that stops monopolization and asshatterypetitionquesting.

Add in a solution to let guilds try vs/trak every now and then without tmo/fe/ib and this proposal is solid. How can people still complain when the guilds that held 97 percent of all raid content is now saying they not raid almost half of raid content at all.

I think every raid mob should at least sometimes be reserved for tier B guilds and sometimes be open to Tier A guilds.

Also I think the casual guilds need to engage in a timely manner. 4 hours is too much, how about 1 hour? There are enough guilds in Tier B that one of them ought to be able to muster a force in that time. If they can't, call up another guild and invite them to join you. Casual guilds need to learn to cooperate too, instead of just sitting there waiting for something free.

[Fuddwin]

Indeed.

I don't know why simplicity is evil. The billion posts with a billion rules and a billion exceptions are insane.

Regardless of what I think of Alarti, his proposal is valid. It is folly to ignore a good idea just because you don't care for the person delivering it.



I really like this idea, and am trying to have more people look at it.

Imo there should be a time limit to engage on all these proposals.

ONWARD!

[Alarti0001]

BDA should be Tier A

Build your guild and you will be able to take on BDA with ease in tier B.

Or if you guys want you can make a rotation on tier b's half of the mobs, the onus would be on you guys.

[Fuddwin]

Casual guilds need to learn to cooperate too, instead of just sitting there waiting for something free.

FTFY

[Sinestria]

This is a pretty good proposal surprisingly. I think that something more needs to be done with VS though, he is not a gatekeeper to VP and should not be treated as such

[uygi]

I also disagree that killing a VP dragon should be an automatic 30 day bump up. How about only if they kill 2 VP dragons in any 30 days? I don't want there to be a "penalty" for them making an attempt in there. I think IB/TMO/FE having a little outside competition is healthy, imagine we both rush engages or get cross aggro and all end up dead, I'd like to see BDA chastise us by taking a kill.

[Razdeline]

Simple Fair Solution

Tier A Guilds: FE/IB, TMO
Tier B Guilds: All the rest of youzes


1/2 of Inny/Fay/Sev/Gore/Tal/Naggy/Vox are open for Tier B guilds to kill as they see fit. Make a rotation, compete. Your choice!
1/2 of Draco's/Maestro's are open for Tier B guilds.

Tier B guilds may choose to compete on the other 1/2 of these mobs as they want without punishment.

Tier B guilds may compete in VP and at Trak/VS/CT as they want without punishment.

Tier B guilds will become Tier A guilds for a period of 30 days if they meet any of the following conditions. Kill a VP dragon, Kill 3 Trakanon's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 Venril Sathir's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 CT's in a 30 day period.

No Poopsocking(Logged in at or near a spawn) Tracking obviously permitted.
No DA engages(this can be a flat out policy or a time limit(36 seconds))



This gives out roughly 22 raid mobs to the server per month(not competed on by FE/IB or TMO)
The rest of the mobs are competitive.

This allows "casual scum" to have lots of raid encounters, but it also allows the best raids to be competitive. This is a happy balance between full competition and rotations.

Review, and when you do explain your position, what you would like to change, and the reasoning behind your dissent.


Yes, a timelimit can be discussed, this also helps mobs spawn faster. If "B" guild doesn't kill Trak in a few days, its advantageous for EVERYONE if the mob is killed in a relative amount of time from it's spawn time. Mobs dying quicker: Quicker respawns.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I like that DA stalling is no longer a valid tactic (does having a character eat a Trak Touch with DA count as a "stall"... don't care either way, but lets address that up front.)

Still not sure the "no poopsocking" doesn't cater to guilds with alt armies, someone would have to convince me and others this isn't just "something that looks like a bone is being thrown but is really just playing to a certain guild's advantage."

Does this involve the guild council premise like the original TMO/FE proposal? If so, what guilds sit on it, how will the votes be structured, how does a guild establish representation to it, and what are the "sanctions" mentioned that guilds would be enacting on each other?

How does this scale to Velious so we're not right back at square one a few months from now? Note, I feel it would be fair for Velious to be a FFA for X months, but I am sure casuals don't want to wait for another Rogean-style intervention before they get some sort of fair access to Velious content after a certain period of time. I guess this part isn't as urgent and could maybe be tasked to the guild council prior to Velious release.

[Autotune]

I like that DA stalling is no longer a valid tactic (does having a character eat a Trak Touch with DA count as a "stall"... don't care either way, but lets address that up front.)

Still not sure the "no poopsocking" doesn't cater to guilds with alt armies, someone would have to convince me and others this isn't just "something that looks like a bone is being thrown but is really just playing to a certain guild's advantage."

Does this involve the guild council premise like the original TMO/FE proposal? If so, what guilds sit on it, how will the votes be structured, how does a guild establish representation to it, and what are the "sanctions" mentioned that guilds would be enacting on each other?

How does this scale to Velious so we're not right back at square one a few months from now? Note, I feel it would be fair for Velious to be a FFA for X months, but I am sure casuals don't want to wait for another Rogean-style intervention before they get some sort of fair access to Velious content after a certain period of time. I guess this part isn't as urgent and could maybe be tasked to the guild council prior to Velious release.

I'm sorry, poopsocking and alt armies are both bad.

Poopsocking created Huge Variance and Huge Variance created Alt Armies.

Fixing Poopsocking is a good thing.

[Alarti0001]

I also disagree that killing a VP dragon should be an automatic 30 day bump up. How about only if they kill 2 VP dragons in any 30 days? I don't want there to be a "penalty" for them making an attempt in there. I think IB/TMO/FE having a little outside competition is healthy, imagine we both rush engages or get cross aggro and all end up dead, I'd like to see BDA chastise us by taking a kill.

VP is the top end raiding environment. If you kill there you are a top end guild. Nothing to compromise in VP.

[Spitty]

Fixing poopsocking will (hopefully) lead to decreased/no variance, which will lead to more predictable mob patterns, which will lead to more mobs and increased competition for aforementioned reasons.

Ain't that a win?

[Alarti0001]

I like that DA stalling is no longer a valid tactic (does having a character eat a Trak Touch with DA count as a "stall"... don't care either way, but lets address that up front.)

Still not sure the "no poopsocking" doesn't cater to guilds with alt armies, someone would have to convince me and others this isn't just "something that looks like a bone is being thrown but is really just playing to a certain guild's advantage."

Does this involve the guild council premise like the original TMO/FE proposal? If so, what guilds sit on it, how will the votes be structured, how does a guild establish representation to it, and what are the "sanctions" mentioned that guilds would be enacting on each other?

How does this scale to Velious so we're not right back at square one a few months from now? Note, I feel it would be fair for Velious to be a FFA for X months, but I am sure casuals don't want to wait for another Rogean-style intervention before they get some sort of fair access to Velious content after a certain period of time. I guess this part isn't as urgent and could maybe be tasked to the guild council prior to Velious release.

No guild council other than to mediate disagreements, and prevent CSR petitions.

This proposal has nothing to do with Velious and it shouldn't. 3yo Kunark is in no way comparable to Velious.

[uygi]

How does this scale to Velious so we're not right back at square one a few months from now? Note, I feel it would be fair for Velious to be a FFA for X months, but I am sure casuals don't want to wait for another Rogean-style intervention before they get some sort of fair access to Velious content after a certain period of time. I guess this part isn't as urgent and could maybe be tasked to the guild council prior to Velious release.

I think FFA is going to be more tenable in Velious, just due to the sheer number of targets and that mobs pop faster(<7 day spawns). I doubt that FE, IB and/or TMO will really be able and willing to lock down everything, because that would practically be 24/7 raiding. I think the heavy emphasis will be on ST keys, with other things more or less falling by the wayside.

[Alarti0001]

I think FFA is going to be more tenable in Velious, just due to the sheer number of targets and that mobs pop faster(<7 day spawns). I doubt that FE, IB and/or TMO will really be able and willing to lock down everything, because that would practically be 24/7 raiding. I think the heavy emphasis will be on ST keys, with other things more or less falling by the wayside.

Not to mention 6 new gear farms. PoM/PoG/WToV/Arena/Manor/HoT.
Vindi is an 8 hours spawn. Velks will be largely untouched by the big 2 etc. Wuoshi will be an easily obtainable mob. WW Dragons drop good spells and decent items/talismans. OH and... Kunark will be largely open. VS goes to 3 days eventually. VSR is added, Bard Trakanon is added, Golem for Wiz epic is added. etc etc etc....

[Hitpoint]

None of this applies to Velious. Nor should it.

[Spitty]

Velious would be a blast with or without this system, especially if simulated patch days become a thing.

If you haven't raided Velious before, it's a huge continent with a massive amount of content that requires a lot of work to get to raid mobs. You can have a top tier guild clearing PoG for Tunare, another top tier guild doing Vindi/statue to get to AoW, yet another guild crawling NToV and still have 3-4 very challenging dragons pop and be available for other guilds.

Variance absolutely needs to go away, but if you haven't been part of the mad-dash scramble to grab a target when Velious raids start repopping...oh dude. It's a freaking blast.

[YendorLootmonkey]

VP is the top end raiding environment. If you kill there you are a top end guild. Nothing to compromise in VP.

Far better than getting dinged for attempting and failing as in the previous proposal, at any rate.

[Snackies]

I actually like this as an alternative to the other proposal we had. Not bad at all.

Agreed.

I am pro DA/avoidance engages as long as they are capped (36s tops, but even 1 is fine)

[uygi]

VP is the top end raiding environment. If you kill there you are a top end guild. Nothing to compromise in VP.

I agree in principle, but I see no harm in having guilds take a stab at it. I really liked seeing BDA go in and take a shot at Druushk last week, and they did a really good job for a 17 man raid with only one bard. I'd hate to have them stay out just because they're not interested in full-tilt batphone and crap.

Also remember the first time FE killed Druushk? The general attitude in TMO was GJ you caught us napping, we'll have to play better next time. I think that's a really healthy dynamic and I'd want to encourage that.

Also to clarify, I don't believe there should be any kind of rotation, delay to engage or anything else in VP, just that there maybe not be as much of a "penalty" for trying in there. If you want to tack PD on as an instant Tier A qualifier, that's probably cool because getting one of those per month is somewhere from 25-50% of the real quality loot in a month, and a guild just looking to game the allowance will just go after PD every 31 days...

[Autotune]

Tier B guilds will become Tier A guilds for a period of 30 days if they meet any of the following conditions. Kill a VP dragon, Kill 3 Trakanon's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 Venril Sathir's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 CT's in a 30 day period.

This part needs to be changed.

Remove VS, Remove CT, remove Trakanon.

Change VP dragon to PD, Hosh, or Nexona. Most guilds should be able to kill xygoz, silverwing, or druushk.

Shouldn't be punished for wanting to test the waters in VP, but if you can kill one of the hardest (or the highest value target in all of kunark) then you should definitely be upgraded.

All of the other "advancement" checks will only limit the growth of a guild trying to go from one category to the other.

Now, put something around the fact that if a guild starts monopolizing the CAT B section, say they are getting 75% or more of the kills compared to their peers, then upgrade them.

[Spitty]

Agreed.

I am pro DA/avoidance engages as long as they are capped (36s tops, but even 1 is fine)

Any clause that keeps it from being a delay-to-engage tactic would make sense, really.

DA/avoidance engaging is winner strategy for debuffing and positioning and shouldn't be taken away.

[Snackies]

Any clause that keeps it from being a delay-to-engage tactic would make sense, really.

DA/avoidance engaging is winner strategy for debuffing and positioning and shouldn't be taken away.

Yep!

[uygi]

Could it be? Stealin and Myu versus Alarti? FIGHT!

[Alarti0001]

Could it be? Stealin and Myu versus Alarti? FIGHT!

Just Myu level 30's dont have much say especially banned cheaters like Stealin.

[Autotune]

Could it be? Stealin and Myu versus Alarti? FIGHT!

If they want competition, they should, at least, make a proposal that allows for guilds to grow into that.

[Autotune]

Just Myu level 30's dont have much say especially banned cheaters like Stealin.

You guys seemed to have trouble getting your proposal off the ground... I wonder why.

[Alarti0001]

You guys seemed to have trouble getting your proposal off the ground... I wonder why.

Not my proposal :)

[Spitty]

Just Myu level 30's dont have much say especially banned cheaters like Stealin.

Oh, come now. You had such a good refurbished-image thing going with this thread and your recent posts. No need to get trolled into the old Alarti.

Should rename Alarti0002, champeen of the bandwagon, imo.

[uygi]

If they want competition, they should, at least, make a proposal that allows for guilds to grow into that.

Yeah, you and I agree on the VP thing. Guilds should be allowed to make an inital foray in there without risking a total shakeup of their raiding situation. There needs to be room to grow without getting tossed into a cage match they aren't ready for.

[Autotune]

Oh, come now. You had such a good refurbished-image thing going with this thread and your recent posts. No need to get trolled into the old Alarti.

Should rename Alarti0002, champeen of the bandwagon, imo.

He's just playing, not even remotely trolling.

[Alarti0001]

Oh, come now. You had such a good refurbished-image thing going with this thread and your recent posts. No need to get trolled into the old Alarti.

Should rename Alarti0002, champeen of the bandwagon, imo.

Alarti is multi-faceted. I usually keep the troll side locked up in an RnF cage. However, Server chat has been indistinguishable from RnF lately and Trollarti is very confused.

[Autotune]

Yeah, you and I agree on the VP thing. Guilds should be allowed to make an inital foray in there without risking a total shakeup of their raiding situation. There needs to be room to grow without getting tossed into a cage match they aren't ready for.

It's the main thing I don't understand from them. Some of these guys punishing them for wanting to test the waters are the same ones boasting about how much more skilled, better equipped, etc they are than the "CAT B" guilds. Don't handicap them in their own bracket for wanting to compete with guilds who already have stacked decks.

[Alarti0001]

It's the main thing I don't understand from them. Some of these guys punishing them for wanting to test the waters are the same ones boasting about how much more skilled, better equipped, etc they are than the "CAT B" guilds. Don't handicap them in their own bracket for wanting to compete with guilds who already have stacked decks.

If they want to "compete" then they have that option. They will only be bumped up for getting a kill.

Getting a kill will get them VP loot plus they can still compete for all the stuff Tier A's compete on. Even with the low amount of mobs Tier A is competing on I bet there will be Fay's/Tal's/Gore's/Vox's/Draco's that will be available for them to chase.
VS is also just an easy FTE away.

In summary if a guild is capable of beating us to a mob in VP and getting the kill they are capable of competing for a month.

[Autotune]

In summary if a guild is capable of beating us to a mob in VP and getting the kill they are capable of competing for a month.

beating? Some of those VP mobs aren't heavily contested and with the no training rule they'll be even be easier to get.

I see no real harm in changing it to something closer to what I suggested. Unless you think that killing one VP mob, or 2 CTs puts a guild on the same ground and terms as IB or TMO.

Seems like the top 3 guilds don't think much of their own skills.

[Hitpoint]

Edit: Nevermind too tired to remember which thread im posting in, going to sleep now.

[Alarti0001]

beating? Some of those VP mobs aren't heavily contested and with the no training rule they'll be even be easier to get.

I see no real harm in changing it to something closer to what I suggested. Unless you think that killing one VP mob, or 2 CTs puts a guild on the same ground and terms as IB or TMO.

Seems like the top 3 guilds don't think much of their own skills.

Without training they will be heavily contested. Your logical fallacy is ignored.

[Sinestria]

This is a pretty good proposal surprisingly. I think that something more needs to be done with VS though, he is not a gatekeeper to VP and should not be treated as such

[Alarti0001]

..

VS can be competed at. He is very easy to kill and just requires FTE. CT also has nothing to do with VP.

CT/VS/VP drop top tier loot and are the highest desired targets outside of PD for Tier A raiders.

This is a compromise.... not a get everything you want.

[Autotune]

Without training they will be heavily contested. Your logical fallacy is ignored.

So you're saying, when Trak is in window, IB TMO & FE are going to be running off to spend time in VP for a silverwing pop or a xygoz pop?

What about VS?

CT?

Don't kid me with that, the majority of the VP raid targets aren't that valuable to those 3 guilds. When another guild can actually field a VP raid (which will probably be awhile) I don't see any of those 3 moving mains from VS/Trak/CT to fight it out for rot loot.

[uygi]

Agreed, winning a CT kill is quite a bit harder than killing a VP dragon in a no-train zone, never mind that there's a certain amount of [legal] training inherent in CT races to begin with. If we're napping enough to let BDA or whoever else get their engage in first, why penalize the new guy? Seems like a system designed to keep new competitors out of VP.

Bottom line is I have a different opinion on how VP should affect Tier A/B status, but it's mostly a philosophical difference of opinion. The practical impact of either idea is probably negligible. I'm still endorsing your idea ;)

[Sinestria]

VS can be competed at. He is very easy to kill and just requires FTE. CT also has nothing to do with VP.

CT/VS/VP drop top tier loot and are the highest desired targets outside of PD for Tier A raiders.

This is a compromise.... not a get everything you want.

A compromise would be "tier A will sit out on x amount of VS and x amount of CT". The compromise is that you get to 100% compete in all Trak kills (continued blocking of VP entry)

[Argh]

Best proposal as of yet

[Autotune]

The thing I see about this, is that FE/IB/TMO would just do a gentlemen's agreement to leave VP targets up until they agree to compete for the less desirable targets.

While Hosh and PD would probably be high desired targets that would be immediate races.

It wouldn't be the first time this type of agreement was instituted.

[Spitty]

Just hearing the word "agreement" in this context is a step forward.

My humble opinion is that this proposal be refined and submitted. Raids commence as usual whenever this suspension is up, and any residual kinks that arise should be addressed with the same diplomacy that is becoming more and more common here.

Ain't that decent enough?

[uygi]

A compromise would be "tier A will sit out on x amount of VS and x amount of CT". The compromise is that you get to 100% compete in all Trak kills (continued blocking of VP entry)

I said that I think all mobs should at least sometimes... at least every once in a while... follow whatever distribution the Tier B guilds see fit. They would of course be welcome to compete against anyone at any other time as well, as Taken has demonstrated with Inny a lot recently.

Don't forget that there are people that have put in months of effort to earn their spot in line for a rare epic drop, tracking and attending very competitive encounters to earn it. How often do you really expect them to sit idly by while some other guild gets, in relative terms, what amounts to a freebie? I'm not saying the mobs/drops should be totally reserved for Tier A guilds, but don't expect too huge a piece of the pie either.
It's not a very big pie.

[Handull]

The one thing you are missing Alarti, is GMs need to also drastically shorten the mob windows. If GMs really want to support the player base, they should even make the server-agreed-rotation mobs variance free, and make the competitive mobs have variance (obviously there is no easy fix button for this, but it wouldn't be too much work). They should keep the extended window feature, to continue to help curb the urge to late window sock (if you truly know the last possible spawn time, its hard to not want to sock the last few minutes). If we are really serious about agreeing not to poopsock and DA stall, than there is no reason to have such long variance. If a 7day repop mob had a 24 hour total variance window, many other guilds would be able to track and compete for it, and mobs like Trakanon would have even short windows, making them even more appealing. Allowing the guilds that just want free loot to get *some* free loot (notably more than they are getting now), and making it worthwhile for other guilds to start tracking. If they do that, and we all agree to something similar to your OP, then we can all have fun for the relatively short time we have to wait for Velious.

GMs have put into place so many insane roadblocks that prevent guilds from getting along. 3(?) years of Kunark, 96+hour windows for raid mobs, etc. If we are really going to agree to play nice, they need to drastically reduce variance so other guilds can actually compete. Telling another guild to come compete on CT right now is insane due to the learning curve of the encounter and the long time commitment just to see his name on Track, let alone try to mobilize and get a shot at the mob.

With the current system, any non-rotation mobs that FE/IB and TMO agree not to engage will almost surely go to BDA, who is the next biggest guild and has the greatest ability to track a mob for 96+hours straight. (notice I said 'non-rotation' mobs)

[Sinestria]

I said that I think all mobs should at least sometimes... at least every once in a while... follow whatever distribution the Tier B guilds see fit. They would of course be welcome to compete against anyone at any other time as well, as Taken has demonstrated with Inny a lot recently.

Don't forget that there are people that have put in months of effort to earn their spot in line for a rare epic drop, tracking and attending very competitive encounters to earn it. How often do you really expect them to sit idly by while some other guild gets, in relative terms, what amounts to a freebie? I'm not saying the mobs/drops should be totally reserved for Tier A guilds, but don't expect too huge a piece of the pie either.
It's not a very big pie.

You chose to "compete" with them, that's on you. Asking for 50% of VS pops for the majority of the server to compete on is not unreasonable.

[Happyfeet]

Does anyone else think Rogean is getting paid to fuck with us and we're all on some sort of neckbeard Truman Show?

I think we're all being watched.

[Handull]

So you're saying, when Trak is in window, IB TMO & FE are going to be running off to spend time in VP for a silverwing pop or a xygoz pop?

What about VS?

CT?

Don't kid me with that, the majority of the VP raid targets aren't that valuable to those 3 guilds. When another guild can actually field a VP raid (which will probably be awhile) I don't see any of those 3 moving mains from VS/Trak/CT to fight it out for rot loot.

i would say at least for a little while, fe/ib is going to race for sw/xygoz, etc. There are some nice items on those mobs, and while some of them are very class limited, and thus tmo has fully farmed them for all their alts, we haven't seen them drop yet, and wouldn't mind getting our hands on a few. we probably wouldn't pull everyone off of trak ledge, but just the other day a few people who had their only vp keyed toon at trak gated to join in on vp kills, and then ran back to seb immediately after.

[Spitty]

You chose to "compete" with them, that's on you. Asking for 50% of VS pops for the majority of the server to compete on is not unreasonable.

It kind of is.

You can't expect competitive, top-tier guilds to leave mobs up while people attempt to compete for trak teeth in order to attempt to compete for VP fights. That is unreasonable to the core.

VP is inherently endgame. You either jump the hoops necessary to get in and then fight for your mobs, or you don't.

Throwing some VP handholding into this is just going to unnecessarily complicate things.

[Handull]

A compromise would be "tier A will sit out on x amount of VS and x amount of CT". The compromise is that you get to 100% compete in all Trak kills (continued blocking of VP entry)

if fe/ib and tmo sit out on a vs with 96+ hour variance, who do you really think is going to sit there for 4+ days straight? maybe bda will, but most other guilds will spend a few hours there at prime time when a bored member is online. we need to get rid of most (but not all) of variance for smaller guilds to even think its worth it to track a mob for 4+days

[Autotune]

I got it, keep it the way it is and then make it so that on repops CAT A guilds must clear VP first before competing for nonVP targets.

[Handull]

I got it, keep it the way it is and then make it so that on repops CAT A guilds must clear VP first before competing for nonVP targets.

since we haven't seen a server repop with two tier a guilds and no training in vp, i can't say for sure, but i'd bet fe/ib and tmo would start in vp at least for PD, and then likely keep pulling mobs in there, unless we already had a force camped at some other target that we could log in quickly after PD died, and then resume VP mobs.

[BlkCamel]

A compromise would be "tier A will sit out on x amount of VS and x amount of CT". The compromise is that you get to 100% compete in all Trak kills (continued blocking of VP entry)

This proposal is great because it is simple and easy to follow. I understand the above arguments about VP, but it is the highest of raiding in Classic/Kunark. Why not treat it as such? But, if we are going to do this you cannot lock guilds from gaining access to VP.

You must concede some VP Key mobs to Tier B guilds. You have to give them a chance to get keyed and compete, but once they do they are recognized as a top raiding guild when they get a VP kill. 30 days elevated status is not a game-breaker. If they decide they cannot compete they will be right back at Tier B.



I implore everyone to accept this offer. It is simple and practical.

[uygi]

NOT what the thread is about, but I'll go Loraen style and drop my solution anyways. The idea of variance, and by extension the silly extended windows (which actually overall increase the mean spawn time beyond 3/7 days!) has outlived its usefulness and been taken farther than it ever should have. The system to avoid known spawn times needs to be redone, and the obvious solution is a mean-spawns-per-month system where any mob can pop at any time, but on average every 3/7 days as appropriate. Guilds are forced to prioritize their tracking targets, and especially within the framework of some kind sharing agreement with a time-to-engage provision it really prevents tracking from being particularly more onerous than it is now.

[Alarti0001]

A compromise would be "tier A will sit out on x amount of VS and x amount of CT". The compromise is that you get to 100% compete in all Trak kills (continued blocking of VP entry)

The compromise is a 1000% increase in Mob availability to the casuals.

[Alarti0001]

The one thing you are missing Alarti, is GMs need to also drastically shorten the mob windows. If GMs really want to support the player base, they should even make the server-agreed-rotation mobs variance free, and make the competitive mobs have variance (obviously there is no easy fix button for this, but it wouldn't be too much work). They should keep the extended window feature, to continue to help curb the urge to late window sock (if you truly know the last possible spawn time, its hard to not want to sock the last few minutes). If we are really serious about agreeing not to poopsock and DA stall, than there is no reason to have such long variance. If a 7day repop mob had a 24 hour total variance window, many other guilds would be able to track and compete for it, and mobs like Trakanon would have even short windows, making them even more appealing. Allowing the guilds that just want free loot to get *some* free loot (notably more than they are getting now), and making it worthwhile for other guilds to start tracking. If they do that, and we all agree to something similar to your OP, then we can all have fun for the relatively short time we have to wait for Velious.

GMs have put into place so many insane roadblocks that prevent guilds from getting along. 3(?) years of Kunark, 96+hour windows for raid mobs, etc. If we are really going to agree to play nice, they need to drastically reduce variance so other guilds can actually compete. Telling another guild to come compete on CT right now is insane due to the learning curve of the encounter and the long time commitment just to see his name on Track, let alone try to mobilize and get a shot at the mob.

With the current system, any non-rotation mobs that FE/IB and TMO agree not to engage will almost surely go to BDA, who is the next biggest guild and has the greatest ability to track a mob for 96+hours straight. (notice I said 'non-rotation' mobs)


BDA has mentioned rotations many times in the past. Now is there chance to live up to that. If not we can add a stipulation to the Tier B mobs, maybe kill limits etc. That is entirely up to Tier B raiders to decide.

[Alarti0001]

You chose to "compete" with them, that's on you. Asking for 50% of VS pops for the majority of the server to compete on is not unreasonable.

Asking for VS to be 100% competitive when a 1000% increase in raid mobs is already on the table isn't at all unreasonable either.

[Handull]

NOT what the thread is about, but I'll go Loraen style and drop my solution anyways. The idea of variance, and by extension the silly extended windows (which actually overall increase the mean spawn time beyond 3/7 days!) has outlived its usefulness and been taken farther than it ever should have. The system to avoid known spawn times needs to be redone, and the obvious solution is a mean-spawns-per-month system where any mob can pop at any time, but on average every 3/7 days as appropriate. Guilds are forced to prioritize their tracking targets, and especially within the framework of some kind sharing agreement with a time-to-engage provision it really prevents tracking from being particularly more onerous than it is now.

it has to be what this thread is about. variance forces guilds to either compete like fe/ib and tmo are competing right now, cut throat and no one else has a chance, or it forces the server into a rotation with 10+ guilds fighting over 10+ mobs. if every mob was always in window, it would just push guilds to grow bigger and track more. sure, you wouldn't always camp out mobs for sev anymore, but just a few camped out pullers and great mobilization, combined with round the clock tracking, would make you #1. it wouldn't be some magical rule that let guilds just find mobs up randomly and kill them at their leisure.

bad attitudes caused the gm's to bring about variance, and variance ended up making everything very cutthroat and hardcore, splitting the server. do away with it, and there won't be times when a guild needs to have 7 people tracking at once to have a shot at getting kills.

[Autotune]

since we haven't seen a server repop with two tier a guilds and no training in vp, i can't say for sure, but i'd bet fe/ib and tmo would start in vp at least for PD, and then likely keep pulling mobs in there, unless we already had a force camped at some other target that we could log in quickly after PD died, and then resume VP mobs.

Then there should be no problem agreeing with this.

It needs to be a rule.

[Alarti0001]

This proposal is great because it is simple and easy to follow. I understand the above arguments about VP, but it is the highest of raiding in Classic/Kunark. Why not treat it as such? But, if we are going to do this you cannot lock guilds from gaining access to VP.

You must concede some VP Key mobs to Tier B guilds. You have to give them a chance to get keyed and compete, but once they do they are recognized as a top raiding guild when they get a VP kill. 30 days elevated status is not a game-breaker. If they decide they cannot compete they will be right back at Tier B.



I implore everyone to accept this offer. It is simple and practical.

They have every chance to kill trakanon competitively to compete.

[Spitty]

Variance was a solution because nothing like this current discussion has ever happened, or been fruitful, between p99 raiders.

It would stand to reason that if an agreement was successfully hashed out and put into place, then variance could be removed. Variance = less mobs, no variance and an agreement = more mobs (1000%, apparently) for everyone.

Yay?

[BlkCamel]

They have every chance to kill trakanon competitively to compete.

Is TMO going to promise not to use alt armies to guarantee no competition? If no poop-socking the zone while he is in window how can they compete?

[Alarti0001]

Variance was a solution because nothing like this current discussion has ever happened, or been fruitful, between p99 raiders.

It would stand to reason that if an agreement was successfully hashed out and put into place, then variance could be removed. Variance = less mobs, no variance and an agreement = more mobs (1000%, apparently) for everyone.

Yay?

I support a reduction in variance, but not the removal. Variance was put in place to prevent poopsocking. Complete removal would incentivise poopsocking or "pseudo-pooping" Jugg raids, Hand/Jail camping, VP Spell farms in the Bedroom of VP....etc etc etc

[Spitty]

Good point.

[uygi]

You chose to "compete" with them, that's on you. Asking for 50% of VS pops for the majority of the server to compete on is not unreasonable.

So I apologize for RL analogies for an elf simulator, but this would more or less be like you work really hard for a promotion for a year or two (or 5 or 10), and right before the next promotional opening gets filled, they decide to revamp the selection procedure to equally allow brand-new hires the same shot at the position, and then somebody tells you 'You chose to "work hard' for them, that's on you." Change happens, and somebody is inevitably going to be unhappy with almost any change, but try to understand where a lot of people are coming from.

And in case you're worried I'm lobbying for myself, I don't have much platinum and never did, and I have SK and wizard epics that I worked my ass off for in 2 different guilds (neither of which would probably qualify as Tier A under the definitions we're working with right now) plus a mage epic I bought which required me to sell most everything I had, including my only fungi back when the price had dropped to 30k. While I'm in a "Tier A" guild today, I got pretty much all my loot for all my characters without being in a Tier A guild. I didn't get it for free, I worked hard and made major contributions to my guilds over the course of years. I don't often see Tier B guilds working hard, even within their means, so forgive me for being a little cynical when they ask for stuff.

[Alarti0001]

Is TMO going to promise not to use alt armies to guarantee no competition? If no poop-socking the zone while he is in window how can they compete?

The same way TMO did when were started against IB. We focused on Trak and VS and only those 2. Once we started playing better, responding to batphones, getting leveled/resist geared etc... we expanded our scope.

Alt armies DO NOT get FTE...
MOTIVATION gets FTE.

[BlkCamel]

The same way TMO did when were started against IB. We focused on Trak and VS and only those 2. Once we started playing better, responding to batphones, getting leveled/resist geared etc... we expanded our scope.

Alt armies DO NOT get FTE...
MOTIVATION gets FTE.

By focused on do you mean, keep mains near target when in window? Maybe I am misunderstanding. Are you saying Full competition is allowed, i.e. poop-socking, on Trak/VS/CT?

[Vandy]

No Poopsocking(Logged in at or near a spawn) Tracking obviously permitted.


This will need to be more defined. This says logged in at or near. Is logging out an army at a target in window covered in this as it is vague? Can/will you log out your buffed alts in KC at VS Pit/cube room? What is the limit on this, logging all characters out at KC zone in? If someone is facetracking are they allowed to engage the mob for FTE while thier camped guildmates are running from the zone in or cube room?


Having characters logged at Seb orb or inside Seb as opposed to the rock? So this becomes who has the most CoH mages to Coh thier logged out army from the zone In the fastest?

[Alarti0001]

By focused on do you mean, keep mains near target when in window? Maybe I am misunderstanding. Are you saying Full competition is allowed, i.e. poop-socking, on Trak/VS/CT?

No on poop-socking, its in the initial proposal.

What I mean about focusing is not spreading your resources too thinly.

[Alarti0001]

You absorbed the zerg guild to get targets, but good job spinning history more.

That being said, I appreciate this idea for its logic and simplicity.

I hate myself for saying that..

I still like duelling for drafts better tho. :P

Zergling complains about zerging? IB/WA/Trans(Faillol)/DW/VD/FE
Tell me more.

TR has 90+ on raids very often. Got dem logs HBB.
IB had 60-70 on raids very often. Got dem logs.

[BlkCamel]

No on poop-socking, its in the initial proposal.

What I mean about focusing is not spreading your resources too thinly.

so keeping them close to the zone that the priority target is in. I.E. Entire guild exping in Seb, or running forager cycles in trak getting ikky bp's while waiting for target to pop with just a tracker near spawn? How is this not poop-socking? As posted above this needs to be defined better but the rest of the proposal is pure gold.

[Sinestria]

so keeping them close to the zone that the priority target is in. I.E. Entire guild exping in Seb, or running forager cycles in trak getting ikky bp's while waiting for target to pop with just a tracker near spawn? How is this not poop-socking? As posted above this needs to be defined better but the rest of the proposal is pure gold.

That is not poopsocking lol

[kotton05]

A non Zerg couldn't compete at such a pace that is needed to maintain how p99 is/was

[Alarti0001]

This will need to be more defined. This says logged in at or near. Is logging out an army at a target in window covered in this as it is vague? Can/will you log out your buffed alts in KC at VS Pit/cube room? What is the limit on this, logging all characters out at KC zone in? If someone is facetracking are they allowed to engage the mob for FTE while thier camped guildmates are running from the zone in or cube room?

This is defined. Keeping your chars in Game makes it a poopsock. If out of game you can DA stall for 36 sec or choose to engage to wait on reinforcements. Being logged out somewhere isn't a guarantee of becoming logged in.
This is up for debate imo. I'd prefer no camping in Pit room, or on Poop mountain.

Having characters logged at Seb orb or inside Seb as opposed to the rock? So this becomes who has the most CoH mages to Coh thier logged out army from the zone In the fastest?

There are other easy ways to get to Trak, when you have a raid force, without COTHing. Either they way the main reason to move camp sights is to prevent accidental training.

[Alarti0001]

what generation IB? What was that generation in response to?

Post variance IB.

[Alarti0001]

so keeping them close to the zone that the priority target is in. I.E. Entire guild exping in Seb, or running forager cycles in trak getting ikky bp's while waiting for target to pop with just a tracker near spawn? How is this not poop-socking? As posted above this needs to be defined better but the rest of the proposal is pure gold.

Whats a safe distance for a Trak engage. Should we have to boat from Antonica and run there?


Also, I'd love to see an entire guild at multiple camps in Seb try to come to some coordinated movement pattern to Seb. Hilarity would ensue.

[BlkCamel]

That is not poopsocking lol

some have taken that as poop-socking. I am trying to get a definition of what is or is not acceptable for this proposal. I hope this is the proposal taken up by the majority when the vote occurs.

[Alarti0001]

some have taken that as poop-socking. I am trying to get a definition of what is or is not acceptable for this proposal. I hope this is the proposal taken up by the majority when the vote occurs.

We can set decent guidelines per mob as needed. I think any large guild section actively in game past fungi is pooping.

However, I'd be more than fine(personally) with a casual guild doing Juggs/reets as long as it wasn't in trak lair(before the jugg maze)

[Nune]

You keep using that word to describe how things work here.

Is it competition to race your mate dragging your ballsacks across a field of broken glass?

Is it competition when someone brings donuts into work and you rush to them in a frenzied sprint to grab as many as you can?

Or when you try to hail a taxi and you're screaming "FTE! FTE!", and when one shows up you throw a javelin at the driver, then shove and claw your way inside?

Then at the end of the day you go home to your dumpster and alleycat family, and say "Boy, that was fun. I sure bested all of them. Hailed four fucking cabs". Then you drift off to sleep wondering whether you'll make it through the night without a restauranteur dumping a half eaten pizza in the alley, to which you'll need to race a pack of stray dogs.

But you'll sleep comfortably, until then; after all, you relish the competition.

LOL

[BlkCamel]

We can set decent guidelines per mob as needed. I think any large guild section actively in game past fungi is pooping.

However, I'd be more than fine(personally) with a casual guild doing Juggs/reets as long as it wasn't in trak lair(before the jugg maze)

Then I hope you turn on the Propaganda Machine and get as many eyes to see this as possible. Good Luck!

[Alarti0001]

#1 your sig is dumb because you don't understand how they work.

#2 what was that in response to?

Variance.

[Nune]

This proposal is the best one so far. Unfortunately this, like the "Tier A" people acting kindly and constructive towards each other, is only because in 2 days if you don't all sign on one of these dotted lines the reason you woke up for the last 3+ years is going to be taken away from you. This is just a video game, a minor escape from the real world. People called Alarti's work and tried to get him fired (or whatever dumbass reason it was) because the line between 14 year old elf simulator and human beings is completely blurred to some of you. My guild, and most of the people i run with, have done next to 0 raiding on P99 because of the same people now reaching out to the community with masked, selfish intentions.

Personally, I won't be heartbroken if raiding gets taken away from you all. Because let's be honest, this is more about making sure you get to keep doing what you want to versus making sure everyone gets to do what they want. Of course the guild(s) that posted their raid loot spreadsheets in threads constantly, mocking people who tried raids and failed, and got caught red-handed duping/exploiting are now white knights. Get fucking real, you're a bunch of forgettable faces trying to be named prom king at your high school reunion. Irrelevant when it mattered, scourge when given a second chance.

I hope for guilds like Taken, Azure Guard, the newer members of IB/TMO who are recently doing well enough to see some dragons but haven't gotten an honest chance, something gets agreed upon because I think it's childish to subject the entire server to the drama of the 1%. This mentality has always been why I have had issues with authority my whole life. When it becomes too much effort, generalize. Because if you could give me a legit reason why Azure Guard couldn't raid the few days they do due to poopsock/FRAPS/petition wars, I would concede and go all in on this doomsday timeline. Guilds/people like them, my guild for that matter, have had 0% of a hand in the perpetual bullshit state of the server, and we are now 48 hours away from being subjected to it.

[Mac Dretti]

Who Posted?
Total Posts: 129
User Name Posts
Alarti0001 31

[Alarti0001]

Who Posted?
Total Posts: 129
User Name Posts
Alarti0001 31

Mac Dretti 56 total posts... 0 posts with substance. Anon troll ignore engaged.

[Spitty]

But he has such attitude in that avatar that you know he means srs bsns.

[BlkCamel]

bump

[Mac Dretti]

Mac Dretti 56 total posts... 0 posts with substance. Anon troll ignore engaged.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d578236da71e9e5a5e77fbc2f813a2c0/tumblr_muzynlB0Li1scesngo2_500.gif

[Spitty]

I'm thinking he's like KISS without a cock.




What I mean is, he's like a band without the D.





What I'm saying is, ban.











In closing, get the fuck out.

[Mac Dretti]

mac dretti u reppin' the 707 or u just a poseur?

Why would I be a poseur for not living in 707?

U dum or somethin?

[Racun]

I see nothing in here about FTE sniping.. can you please add something that states something along the lines of "FTE will not be valid unless we have x number of people ready to engage mob (and by ready to engage mob I mean not sitting outside fear portal ready to zone in, I mean actually in zone where it is easy to verify who is "ready to engage").

Need to make it simple - like a static number across the board rather than a number for each specific target. DA stalling would then not be an issue as you would be breaking this rule by DA stalling without sufficient numbers ready to engage the target.

Please also add another rule that states accidental trains are just as guilty as purposeful trains and agree to stop the ridiculous trains to trak ledge and the fraps & petitionquest that occurs with so many of the encounters in the game.

These underhanded tactics are what stifle "competition" on this server, not lack of will by "Tier B" guilds to want to attempt the targets.

[Alarti0001]

I see nothing in here about FTE sniping.. can you please add something that states something along the lines of "FTE will not be valid unless we have x number of people ready to engage mob (and by ready to engage mob I mean not sitting outside fear portal ready to zone in, I mean actually in zone where it is easy to verify who is "ready to engage").

Need to make it simple - like a static number across the board rather than a number for each specific target. DA stalling would then not be an issue as you would be breaking this rule by DA stalling without sufficient numbers ready to engage the target.

Please also add another rule that states accidental trains are just as guilty as purposeful trains and agree to stop the ridiculous trains to trak ledge and the fraps & petitionquest that occurs with so many of the encounters in the game.

These underhanded tactics are what stifle "competition" on this server, not lack of will by "Tier B" guilds to want to attempt the targets.


FTE sniping should be allowed. Who determines what a minimum kill force is?

I don't see a reason for accidental trains to be marked as purposeful. The point is for the guilds to mediate their own disputes and to only approach the GM's as a last resort.

Accidental trains are rare.

Tier B guilds can come up with whatever ruleset they want for their raid mobs.

[Spitty]

FTE sniping should be allowed. Who determines what a minimum kill force is?

Apparently my NY resolution is to agree with Alarti on a bunch of shit.

FTE sniping makes sense - if you get FTE and manage to pull off a win, congrats. If you FTE and you wipe, try better next time.

And, as anyone from A-Team will tell you, nobody on this server has any idea what a minimum kill force is.

[Racun]

FTE sniping is about the same as DA stalling.. you are delaying an opposition raid force from engaging a target when you are not prepared to engage yourself, yet DA stalling is not allowed but FTE sniping is?

You say you want competition but do you want fair competition or this type of competition? Because if it's this type you're going to have to give up more raid targets to the "tier B" guilds before you come to some kind of agreement.

You're in here trying to make concessions about how many targets you are willing to give up per month so you can get back to raiding again rather than addressing the root cause of the current shitty raiding environment, which is your attitude.

[Nune]

FTE sniping is about the same as DA stalling.. you are delaying an opposition raid force from engaging a target when you are not prepared to engage yourself, yet DA stalling is not allowed but FTE sniping is?

You say you want competition but do you want fair competition or this type of competition? Because if it's this type you're going to have to give up more raid targets to the "tier B" guilds before you come to some kind of agreement.

You're in here trying to make concessions about how many targets you are willing to give up per month so you can get back to raiding again rather than addressing the root cause of the current shitty raiding environment, which is your attitude.

/thread

[Alarti0001]

FTE sniping is about the same as DA stalling.. you are delaying an opposition raid force from engaging a target when you are not prepared to engage yourself, yet DA stalling is not allowed but FTE sniping is?


You're in here trying to make concessions about how many targets you are willing to give up per month so you can get back to raiding again rather than addressing the root cause of the current shitty raiding environment, which is your attitude.

Who says someone isn't prepared to engage a target? FTE sniping is a convenient bitching term when the opposing teams makes a stupid mistake. That is all.

Also, I could care less about raiding again. TMO would have a huge advantage if raiding was shut down until Velious. Your point is non-existent. I am trying to make a nicer raid scene while still maintain some fun for the competitive guilds. I think your demanding and entitled attitude is adding to a shitty environment.

My proposal offers a 1000% increase in raid mob availability including some BIS items/epics/raid tools. All of these mobs come from the TMO/FE/IB raid schedule in the past. TMO/FE/IB would be giving up in excess of 22 mobs a month + whatever else the other guilds take during competitive times. What are the casual guilds offering in compromise? Complaints? Demands? QQ's?

[Spitty]

Perhaps I assumed FTE sniping meant one force tagged and immediately engaged a mob before a competing raid force was able to tag.

That's proper use of the term, really. You aren't sniping if you don't hit the target.

[Vandy]

Apparently my NY resolution is to agree with Alarti on a bunch of shit.

FTE sniping makes sense - if you get FTE and manage to pull off a win, congrats. If you FTE and you wipe, try better next time.

And, as anyone from A-Team will tell you, nobody on this server has any idea what a minimum kill force is.

So what is the difference between then, people engaging an NPC and using Soulfire click and Discs to hold the NPC off for more to arrive and someone using a DA idol to hold the NPC off for more to arrive.

[Alarti0001]

So what is the difference between then, people engaging an NPC and using Soulfire click and Discs to hold the NPC off for more to arrive and someone using a DA idol to hold the NPC off for more to arrive.

Hoo hoo ! I didn't think of soulfires... I'd love to outlaw those too. Its a broken mechanic that was nerfed for a reason ... + its super super lame. Mine as well just have cleric bots here like on eqlive.

[Spitty]

If that's what this server considers FTE sniping...well, misnomer aside, that's not exactly in line with the overall goal of this attempt at an agreement, is it?

[Arteker]

Apparently my NY resolution is to agree with Alarti on a bunch of shit.

FTE sniping makes sense - if you get FTE and manage to pull off a win, congrats. If you FTE and you wipe, try better next time.

And, as anyone from A-Team will tell you, nobody on this server has any idea what a minimum kill force is.

usualy before FTE shouts where made, guilds would try to get fte , then kill /petition and find out who the fuck should get it based in who FTE.

that tactic is gone with FE shouts , minus using eyes i think, eyes would not trigger the fte shouts

[Vandy]

Hoo hoo ! I didn't think of soulfires... I'd love to outlaw those too. Its a broken mechanic that was nerfed for a reason ... + its super super lame. Mine as well just have cleric bots here like on eqlive.

Basically there would need to be a No Stalling rule. So time between FTE message and full engage is what would need to be worked out maybe?

[Racun]

I saw fraps from the CT where IB/FE got the loot taken away from them where one of the TMO players got FTE on CT with 10 TMO in zone as FE were about to engage. That's not competition, clearly you got outraced to the target so you FTE'd to delay their engage as well as starting a DT cycle they could not recover from given their entire raid force would have to run to the north wall and log out.

I'd say that a large portion of the population of this server would agree with me in my opinion that it is not what I would consider a fair raiding environment. Again - it's about attitude, and you just proved that yours will never change until your hand is forced.. as it is being currently by the GM's.

"Also, I could care less about raiding again. TMO would have a huge advantage if raiding was shut down until Velious."

If you don't start to play nice, there won't be raiding in Velious. I'm OK with that. Are you?

[Alarti0001]

Basically there would need to be a No Stalling rule. So time between FTE message and full engage is what would need to be worked out maybe?

36 second on DA's for pulls the mob must go directly to your camp.

Kiting rules are already in place.

[Spitty]

Racun - calm down, dude.

I know you have past grievances, but people are actually hashing this shit out now - GM pressure or not.

[Alarti0001]

I saw fraps from the CT where IB/FE got the loot taken away from them where one of the TMO players got FTE on CT with 10 TMO in zone as FE were about to engage. That's not competition, clearly you got outraced to the target so you FTE'd to delay their engage as well as starting a DT cycle they could not recover from given their entire raid force would have to run to the north wall and log out.

I'd say that a large portion of the population of this server would agree with me in my opinion that it is not what I would consider a fair raiding environment. Again - it's about attitude, and you just proved that yours will never change until your hand is forced.. as it is being currently by the GM's.

"Also, I could care less about raiding again. TMO would have a huge advantage if raiding was shut down until Velious."

If you don't start to play nice, there won't be raiding in Velious. I'm OK with that. Are you?
Terrorist. Here are my demands, give them all to me or I'll ruin your fun. GTFO

1. DT cycle is broken.
2. CT is a fun encounter because you have to be on your toes.
3. This was actually started by FE and Merkk in particular. TMO found a way around it. We sent in FTE'ers ahead of the raid, and the raid trailed behind until we were assured of FTE.

[Racun]

Calm down? My apologies if my posts come across as anything other than matter of fact.

Any raid agreement won't affect me in the least, as I'm not raiding now and I won't be raiding after the raid agreement is in place, at least until Velious..

I'm simply trying to make the point that any agreement needs to not be about making concessions to give up targets to other guilds, but rather about improving the spirit of competition in the current raiding environment, and none of the agreements presented by TMO or FE seek to achieve this.

[Alarti0001]

I'm simply trying to make the point that any agreement needs to not be about making concessions to give up targets to other guilds, but rather about improving the spirit of competition in the current raiding environment, and none of the agreements presented by TMO or FE seek to achieve this.

You are misinformed or disingenuous. Which is it?

[sanforce]

I like this plan. It leaves competition in place while giving Tier B guilds a chance to kill targets. They can kill any target with this plan, and will be upgraded to a Tier A guild if they are successful at it.

[Racun]

Show me where in your current proposal you are going to improve the spirit of competition rather than giving up lesser raid targets to other guilds.

[Alarti0001]

Show me where in your current proposal you are going to improve the spirit of competition rather than giving up lesser raid targets to other guilds.

My agreement eliminates DA Stalling, Poopsocking, (also giving up targets is improving the spirit significantly) It also allows Tier B to forward progress if they choose and to create whatever raid mechanics they want during tier b raids.

[Clark]

Still not sure the "no poopsocking" doesn't cater to guilds with alt armies, someone would have to convince me and others this isn't just "something that looks like a bone is being thrown but is really just playing to a certain guild's advantage."

[Clark]

Also Autotune needs to take a chill pill

[Alarti0001]

Yendors blah.

There is not a guild out there that can out poop TMO/FE/IB. Not a guild even close to that. So if poopin was allowed on Tier A raids... You would't be those 3(the ones with alts). Not to mention FTE is gained from motivated pooper/trackers. How many times did TMO snag a VS fte with 3-5 poopers vs 15+ FE poopers. 4+?

[Racun]

Yet you wont agree to no FTE sniping which is effectively the same as DA stalling - I'm talking about FTE sniping where your FTE is not followed by an immediate engage.

Your motives for wanting DA stalling and poopsocking removed are why this isn't about improving the spirit of competition vs. improving things for TMO. You wanted DA stalling removed prior to TMO's suspension due to the fact you were losing targets to FE/IB as they were using this tactic. You want poopsocking removed as this is the only way smaller guilds can compete as they don't have an alt army to log out at raid targets.

Present a proposal that improves the raid environment for everyone rather than just improving the raid environment for just the top guilds and I'm sure you will have more people agreeing to it.

[sanforce]

This plan drastically increases the number of targets that Tier B guilds currently see (a large improvement). Tier B guilds getting together to completely ruin the spirit of competition shouldn't be taken seriously. These are large guilds, but they aren't true raid guilds because the can't/won't compete. It's humorous to think that their share all plans would have any traction. Alarti has come up with a sensible plan that improves the raid scene, is easy to follow/understand, and gives Tier B a clear path to becoming a competitive raid guild. I don't see what's not to like, other than Tier B wanting everything placed in their lap with only ForumQuest effort.

[Spitty]

Present a proposal that improves the raid environment for everyone rather than just improving the raid environment for just the top guilds and I'm sure you will have more people agreeing to it.

Have you not read most of this thread?

You've already answered this question in the literal sense by the content of your replies, but I'm asking you rhetorically in the hopes that you might get over yourself and figure out that this is a working proposal here.

[Racun]

If that's the case then everyone will be in here agreeing to the proposal and I will be proven wrong :)

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds.
Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.

[Troubled]

Remove socking rule. Add a 10 day crossover for VS/CT/Trak for CatB guilds and you might be on to something. Leave the #s in place for catA reqs so catB guilds share CT/VS/Trak during crossover.

[-Catherin-]

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.

Full quote instead of an edited version tailored to spread misinfo and scare the masses

keep smokin purp, turp

[Tyym]

Alarti I can't believe I am saying this but I support some of the others when I say you might be onto something. See even the insufferable twat can agree with you at times.

As for Troubledour' post - Remove socking rule. Add a 10 day crossover for VS/CT/Trak for CatB guilds and you might be on to something. Leave the #s in place for catA reqs so catB guilds share CT/VS/Trak during crossover.


There is nothing we can do that will make you guys happy short of just not showing up period. Alarti's suggestion gives you guys about everything you asked for yet you just want more more more.

Morphius
Forceful Entry

[Nlaar]

There is not a guild out there that can out poop TMO/FE/IB. Not a guild even close to that. ?

Holy moly, that's something to celebrate.

[Troubled]

Alarti I can't believe I am saying this but I support some of the others when I say you might be onto something. See even the insufferable twat can agree with you at times.

As for Troubledour' post -

There is nothing we can do that will make you guys happy short of just not showing up period. Alarti's suggestion gives you guys about everything you asked for yet you just want more more more.

Morphius
Forceful Entry

That's what we're trying to work toward. :) As has been said multiple times, what some of you define as simply "hardcore" is extreme beard sports to others. Wanting to compete doesn't mean the same to everyone. Doesn't mean people are to be denied content you deem too important to not have to camp out every single time for. That's all.

[Ataxio]

Hello, I am the leader of the casual scum guild "Just A Phase". I would like to officially state that it is JAPs stance that we do not give a single fuck about the current drama, and will simply respect whatever rules the server staff sets forth.

That is all.

[kotton05]

well its prolly safe to say only raids most yall be doing will be of the fridge in 24 hours!

[Tasslehofp99]

Does anyone else think Rogean is getting paid to fuck with us and we're all on some sort of neckbeard Truman Show?

I think we're all being watched.

LOL

[jaybone]

Simple Fair Solution

Tier A Guilds: FE/IB, TMO
Tier B Guilds: All the rest of youzes


1/2 of Inny/Fay/Sev/Gore/Tal/Naggy/Vox are open for Tier B guilds to kill as they see fit. Make a rotation, compete. Your choice!
1/2 of Draco's/Maestro's are open for Tier B guilds.

Tier B guilds may choose to compete on the other 1/2 of these mobs as they want without punishment.

Tier B guilds may compete in VP and at Trak/VS/CT as they want without punishment.

Tier B guilds will become Tier A guilds for a period of 30 days if they meet any of the following conditions. Kill a VP dragon, Kill 3 Trakanon's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 Venril Sathir's in a 30 day period, Kill 2 CT's in a 30 day period.

No Poopsocking(Logged in at or near a spawn) Tracking obviously permitted.
No DA engages(this can be a flat out policy or a time limit(36 seconds))


*** Changes/Clarifications. Tier B targets raid rules can be defined by Tier B guilds. If you want to allow pooping.. go for it.
Possible change allow semi-socks for Tier B raiders during Tier A Spawn windows.(Considering)



This gives out roughly 22 raid mobs to the server per month(not competed on by FE/IB or TMO)
The rest of the mobs are competitive.

This allows "casual scum" to have lots of raid encounters, but it also allows the best raids to be competitive. This is a happy balance between full competition and rotations.

Review, and when you do explain your position, what you would like to change, and the reasoning behind your dissent.
http://replygif.net/i/1355.gif

[Casualties]

bump.

[MaksimMazor]

This is a logical discussion about raid rules. Please keep all nonsense off this post

http://i.imgur.com/Czq4M7T.jpg

[Tyym]

We are getting requests from guilds I have never heard of to attend the discussion tonight. May I suggest the smaller guilds voice their concerns to some of the higher up Cat B guilds like BDA, Divinity and Taken. Tonight's forum will be restricting representatives to 2 players from each guild. With that in mind, we will still be having 10 -12 people on our vent likely all talking at once. We know the concerns and we are doing our best to come to some sort of amiable solution that benefits everyone. However if you haven't killed a Dragon or God in the past 6 months, then please let your proxy be conveyed by one of the aforementioned guilds.

Morphius
Forceful Entry

[Troubled]

This is a logical discussion about raid rules. Please keep all nonsense off this post

http://i.imgur.com/Czq4M7T.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/aUIWKct.jpg

[DrKvothe]

http://i.imgur.com/aUIWKct.jpg

[Alarti0001]

Can you trolls remove yourself from server chat this is a serious concept here.

[Autotune]

Can you trolls remove yourself from server chat this is a serious concept here.

You probably shouldn't have posted so many troll proposals and posts these last few days in server chat then.

[Alarti0001]

You probably shouldn't have posted so many troll proposals and posts these last few days in server chat then.

Hey look its a cheater. Cheaters out of my thread plz.

[Alarti0001]

Still the best and most fair proposal so far :)

[Mezzmur]

Unfortunately, they feel that it's not fair unless they get 50% of all VS/Trak/CT spawns as stated in the raid forum.

That concept is nuts to me, they're looking for a compromise that gets people some exposure to some mobs, not 50% of all mobs via a ticket-punch-in-line model.

Unfortunate.

[jaybone]

Hey look its a cheater. Cheaters out of my thread plz.

Says the guy in the biggest RMT guild on the server.

[Autotune]

You guys should have switched over to mine, it's very close to this and more casuals seemed to like it and you still would have got to keep Patch day respawn FFA AND not have to worry about lock outs.

Looks like you guys will lose this, should have seen the signs and modified Rogean/Staff's closer to something like I did.

[Mezzmur]

The only people that *really* matter are the ones that post in the raid forum. Us plebeians can't post in there.

[Aeaolena]

http://i.imgur.com/c8eSBDC.gif

[Autotune]

The only people that *really* matter are the ones that post in the raid forum. Us plebeians can't post in there.

I was going to offer advice to some TMO people on how to go about this, but they got all butt hurt I still had forum access and removed it.

I can't really say I feel bad that things are turning out like they are, I will miss some aspects that raiding should have kept, but in the end I've had my fare share of raiding competition.

[sedrie.bellamie]

I was going to offer advice to some TMO people on how to go about this, but they got all butt hurt I still had forum access and removed it.

I can't really say I feel bad that things are turning out like they are, I will miss some aspects that raiding should have kept, but in the end I've had my fare share of raiding competition.

autotune go away

[Autotune]

autotune go away

Go cry on TMO forums you guys aren't getting your way.

You should have gotten one or two of the casuals in on the first proposal and maybe they wouldn't have all shot it down as soon as it was posted.