OFFICIAL PROPOSAL from FE/TMO

[Ella`Ella]

In order to promote an environment that fosters a more friendly atmosphere between the “Casuals” and the “Hardcore” several raiding guilds have come together to draft this agreement for the server. The high-end raiding guilds have made several concessions in favor of the smaller guilds to get more targets. This proposal comes as a function of the input of many members of the server through posts, tells, and vent conversations from members and leadership across the server.

No poop socking agreement:
No guild will have more than 2 members present at any given time during period of time where either Venril Sathir or Trakanon are in window. Specifically those tracking for VS will not be in the room. This will apply to all mobs.

Naturally, there are times that will exist where it is necessary to have more than 2 trackers in the zone for an encounter. There are, however, instances where more than 2 characters from any guilds will need to be in zone. If a guild is CoTHing members down or buffing they may do so, and they may med to full. Upon reaching full mana or completing a CoTH the surplus members must log off and not maintain a presence.

There will no longer be grouping in the VS pit to circumvent the 2-player no-sock rule. This is easy to justify as it’s a terrible spot for exp and has relatively no value for any player to be here if they aren’t looking to manipulate this rule.

In addition, guilds are able to engage Prot and Tola within a reasonable amount of time and may not malinger in the zone after the mobs have been killed.

With the agreement to remove socking as a tactic, we request that GMs significantly reduce variance, as it only serves as a detriment to everyone at this point.

DA Stalling Tactics:
Any stalling tactic such as Divine Barrier or Aura, Harmshield, monk whirlwind or avoidance discs or DA Idol is considered 1 unit of stall. No guild shall employ more than 2 units of stalling during any raid target encounter (36 seconds). If said guild employs a stall tactic and fails to engage the encounter after that time period has concluded, they will forfeit any attempt to engage that target during this spawn period and retreat from the encounter.

CATEGORY A & B
Any guilds considered to be a raid guild will be categorized either A or B.

The Mystical Order, Forceful Entry, and Inglorious Basterds will start in category A. All other guilds will start as Category B.

If a category B guild kills 40% or more of targets in any given month during our “hands off” period (explained below), they will be promoted to Category A and be subject to the respective restrictions.

Any guild that is promoted to Category A will remain in this category for 30 days and will remain in this category until their kill percentage falls to 20% or below.

VP Dragons are excluded from percentage calculations.

Any guild that is VP capable (Kills a dragon in VP) will be considered Category A for 90 days.

HANDS OFF PERIOD
As of January 1, 2014, Category A guilds will be considered “Hands Off” for any Priority raid targets during the first 7 days of each calendar month. During that time period, Category A guilds will avoid any of their priority targets and open them to the rest of the server. This will however exclude raid targets in Veeshan’s Peak.

During the “Hands Off" Period, Category A Guilds may take this opportunity to go after Category A de-prioritized targets that they will be avoiding the other 3 weeks a month.

It is important to note that FE, IB and TMO will not necessarily be actively tracking these deprioritized mobs during this time, as we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item (e.g. we have a warrior holding a green scale that needs a maestro hand).

Repop Days
During a repop, the Category A and B restrictions will not apply, however TMO, FE, and IB have agreed that they will not pursue non-priority targets during a repop.

CAT A De-Prioritized Raid Targets:
Gorenoire, Talendor, Maestro of Rancor & Dracolich (solo spawn)

CAT A Priority Raid Targets:
Cazic Thule (Draco), Venril Sathir, Trakanon, Faydedar, Innourouk, Severillous

Nagy/Vox
As it concerns Nagafen & Vox; CAT A Guilds will alternate killing only one per week and the following week killing the other always leaving one available to the remainder of the server.

Plane of Sky/Noble Dojorn

The Plane of Sky rotation will be respected by all guilds participating, however guilds are free to renegotiate their days with whomever they please.

Guilds agree to leave Overseer of Air up (providing the mechanics on blue still allow for this) to spawn multiple Nobles per day/week/month. If a Noble spawns during a guilds scheduled time, it will be assumed that the guild currently engaging sky will have a first right to engage that noble or they may defer that target to another guild if they choose to do so.

Guild Council
In addition to the aforementioned agreement, I have spoken with Sirken and Derubael about creating a guild council consisting of the following guilds; Divinity, Taken, The Mystical Order, Forceful Entry, Inglourious Basterds, and Bregan d`Aerth. Each guild will have two members that will sit on the council and each guild will have a single vote. Voting for amendments will require a majority (4/6 votes). The council will also be responsible for sanctioning guilds that violate the terms of the agreement. Sanctions will require a super majority to affect (5/6 votes).

GMs Sirken and Derubael will oversee the committee if need be and their decisions will supersede those of the council. The CSR staff will defer to the judgement of the council however and will only intervene in extenuating circumstances. Guilds will also have the right to appeal decisions with CSR staff. The CSR staff has given the council the power to self-govern and use this committee to self-police. They also encourage guilds to work out disputes amongst themselves before bringing issues before CSR staff.

Will guild leaders please PM me with the members of their respective guilds that they would like to add to this council. Ideally, the members you choose will have the authority to make decisions on behalf of your guild or act in the stead of a Guild Leader in the event of the leader’s absence.

Please reference the above document for your consideration. The guilds that have drafted this agreement believe this is a monumental change for the server in a favorable direction for all parties involved. The leadership of each guild is asked to reply, “Signed” in support of the above.

[Ella`Ella]

Signed, Forceful Entry..

[bizzum]

Had some good talks with our FE friends, and came up with some good ideas! Signed here by TMO

Zagum

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Nice, Finally a end to the madness of forum wars.

[AexDestroy]

Guild council is the only decent idea here.

[Bossman]

I urge guilds to discuss this thoroughly before jumping into anything.

[Tecmos Deception]

Edit - quote from Professor Farnsworth about phrasing things in a profoundly stupid way aside, this stuff makes sense even if it does try to do a bit much micromanaging, imo.

[Yinikren]

Agree with Bossman, this is awfully confusing to follow and implement. Guild council is a good thing, 1 week a month BS around what is considered a priority is not. Point system ftw, only reasonable fix to allow a number of guilds to raid.

[Alarti0001]

I'd suggest removing Fay/Sev/Inny from priority target list.

The big 3 can always get green scales from Hosh, Fay is one of those easy dragons that would allow smaller guilds to compete for them (lvl55).
Inny eh....I guess mage staffs... but they are too rare to count on.

[Yinikren]

I'd suggest removing Fay/Sev/Inny from priority target list.

The big 3 can always get green scales from Hosh, Fay is one of those easy dragons that would allow smaller guilds to compete for them (lvl55).
Inny eh....I guess mage staffs... but they are too rare to count on.

This isn't a bad idea, though this system is still overly confusing.

No VS pit exping? I duo there all the time looking for an Oggok Cleaver.

[Ella`Ella]

This isn't a bad idea, though this system is still overly confusing.

What are you confused over? Even Shinko was able to understand this.

[zanderklocke]

Can people do Juggs as an exp group?

Also, will guild council ever increase to include other guilds such as A-Team, Europa, Azure Guard, Knights who say Ni, or even Lord Bob?

[Nlaar]

I like the divinity proposal better...

[Ella`Ella]

Can people do Juggs as an exp group?

Also, will guild council ever increase to include other guilds such as A-Team, Europa, Azure Guard, Knights who say Ni, or even Lord Bob?

If they became a significant raid presence, they would gain representation.

[Thulack]

I'd suggest removing Fay/Sev/Inny from priority target list.

The big 3 can always get green scales from Hosh, Fay is one of those easy dragons that would allow smaller guilds to compete for them (lvl55).
Inny eh....I guess mage staffs... but they are too rare to count on.

Once in my Life i agree with Alarti.

[August]

Some clarification.

no poopsocking - you are basically saying no poop socking but people are still allowed to camp alt armies in the zone waiting for pops? (which seems an awful lot like poopsocking but being able to play your alts while you wait)

Cat A & Cat B - Are Cat B guilds allowed to mobilize during the majority of the time (3/4) that Cat A guilds have claimed their prioritized mobs?

Rotations - how do the Category A guilds plan on sharing mobs? The same way they have in the past? Is not the majority of the 'upset' people FE/IB complaining that TMO gets the mobs? How are we rectifying the tension between Category A guilds?

Switching categories - Is the 40% requirement only on priority raid targets? Or is it deprioritizied as well? Seems like an extremely stiff requirement to begin with, but if they have to compete with the uberguilds for that percentage it seems impossible.

Category A - you state 20% is required. You realize that this means that, more than likely, only 3 guilds can stay category A at any one time? This agreement pretty much says 'We three guilds get the majority of the good mobs forever" 4 guilds means that for everyone to stay in you'd all have to be at 25%. There aren't enough targets out there for 1% granularity in these measurements. That's an incredible balancing act. At 5 guilds you'd all have to be spot on the money, which is never going to happen. Seems like this is catered towards the big 3.

Nice attempt, just think that the numbers need to be adjusted. Current implementation locks the server into a top-3 mentality with an extremely stiff climb to make it a top 4. Once in top 4, it is almost necessity that someone gets ejected. Replacement effects are nice, but with the ability to poopsock via alts I just don't see anything really changing here besides casuals getting thrown a bone 1 week a month.

[Banditfist]

and RnF forums are deleted?

[Vandy]

Any guild that is VP capable (makes an attempt at a dragon in VP) will be considered Category A for 90 days.




So an attempt? this seems to block guilds from event wanting to TRY VP. Why not a successful kill would move you into this category instead of just an attempt?

[Autotune]

So basically things only change during the first 7 days for the other guilds and the normal raid guilds will agree to not poopsock (something that should have been done long ago).

Non-Priority targets aren't focus'd ever on repops.

I don't see much of a change, but for 7 days a month.

I also don't see this helping into velious.

[Ella`Ella]

So an attempt? this seems to block guilds from event wanting to TRY VP. Why not a successful kill would move you into this category instead of just an attempt?

If you have the force to mobilize into VP and make an attempt, don't you think you're in a different category than people fawning for Draco?

[contemptor]

If you have the force to mobilize into VP and make an attempt, don't you think you're in a different category than people fawning for Draco?
However you want to put it, it's a punishment for attempting to zone in with you guys.

[Troubled]

So basically things only change during the first 7 days for the other guilds and the normal raid guilds will agree to not poopsock (something that should have been done long ago).

Non-Priority targets aren't focus'd ever on repops.

I don't see much of a change, but for 7 days a month.

I also don't see this helping into velious.

A temporary fix to keep GMs happy until Velious, with them giving up very little, meant to fear guilds from "attempting" VP dragons, lest they get punished for 90 days for racing TMO/FE/IB in VP. Any guild trying to progress meets a HUGE hurdle there.

[Ecguy]

So basically things only change during the first 7 days for the other guilds and the normal raid guilds will agree to not poopsock (something that should have been done long ago).

Non-Priority targets aren't focus'd ever on repops.

I don't see much of a change, but for 7 days a month.

I also don't see this helping into velious.

And the de-prioritized targets the rest of the month. It's a pretty big change.

[Vandy]

If you have the force to mobilize into VP and make an attempt, don't you think you're in a different category than people fawning for Draco?

3 MONTHS..... seems excessive if you attempt a VP mob and can't kill it then you are pretty screwed.

[Yinikren]

So basically things only change during the first 7 days for the other guilds and the normal raid guilds will agree to not poopsock (something that should have been done long ago).

Non-Priority targets aren't focus'd ever on repops.

I don't see much of a change, but for 7 days a month.

I also don't see this helping into velious.

Thank you.

I don't like this proposal - too much emphasis on the reason we are all here in the first place - mob monopoly.

Helping the server for 1 week a month isn't helping the server.

Logging alts at a mob location IS POOPSOCKING. There is no way around that. You specifically go out of your way to say no poopsocking, then say guilds can log and poopsock as long as they aren't online.

We need a system that monitors itself every week, not some bandaid fix like this where the majority of the guilds can still go on vacation 3 out of 4 weeks of the month.

[contemptor]

Just to clarify, VP is not my only complaint, that one is just the most hilarious.

[Ella`Ella]

A temporary fix to keep GMs happy until Velious, with them giving up very little, meant to fear guilds from "attempting" VP dragons, lest they get punished for 90 days for racing TMO/FE/IB in VP. Any guild trying to progress meets a HUGE hurdle there.

I mean, I guess it's a punishment if you stop trying after one attempt and want to go back to being the big kids in the Category B playground.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Rotations - how do the Category A guilds plan on sharing mobs? The same way they have in the past? Is not the majority of the 'upset' people FE/IB complaining that TMO gets the mobs? How are we rectifying the tension between Category A guilds?.

I can answer that one. Really wasn't FE/IB or TMO going at it this past week. Was really every other guild wanting a piece. I see how you could of thought that though, but shit just inevitably hit the fan.
So category A guilds do not share, that is the "hardcore" group and they will continue to compete. The lessers guilds will also compete, but with each other and not with the hardcore "alt armies".

[Ecguy]

We need a system that monitors itself every week, not some bandaid fix like this where the majority of the guilds can still go on vacation 3 out of 4 weeks of the month.

There are target the rest of the month that CAT A guilds ignore.

[JayN]

all these rule proposals are great in all but without enforcement, its nothing really.

whos going to be watching everything all the time to make sure people dont break these rules?

[Pan]

Does not meet these criteria (sirken) in the least:

remember this is NOT about helping guildA or hurting guildB or anything that retardedly short sighted. we are trying to build a better server, both to allow current players to have lots of fun, but also a server that will be welcoming to another 600-1000 players after velious launches, and allow them to have fun as well.

Carves out huge penalties for guilds hoping to advance past any one of a number of plateaus. Makes the high-value targets less accessible to the up and comers.

This is purely by the big dogs for the big dogs and ensures that others cannot tread on their turf.

[Alarti0001]

A temporary fix to keep GMs happy until Velious, with them giving up very little, meant to fear guilds from "attempting" VP dragons, lest they get punished for 90 days for racing TMO/FE/IB in VP. Any guild trying to progress meets a HUGE hurdle there.

Huh? What punishment. If you are capable of competing in VP, you are capable of competing everywhere else. So basically you are saying TMO/FE/IB are punishing themselves for being awesome... but if BDA was ever awesome you can't be punished?
Be real.

[YendorLootmonkey]

1) Not sure what to think about the no poopsocking agreement. This caters to guilds with alt armies that can be logged out save 1-2 trackers. Needs something more here.

2) DA Stalling Tactics should have been completely prohibited. Maybe just 1 DA/DB/idol to eat the Trak Touch... there's no need for another 18 seconds of stalling, that's just a crutch. Either you're ready to engage when you have FTE or you aren't.

3) I would have liked to have seen "leapfrogging" addressed.

4) As has been mentioned, the penalty is too steep to enter that VP playground.

5) Noble should have had a rotation... with no variance, one guild is going to get extremely lucky to have Noble pop routinely during their sky raid every single week.

6) Guild Council is a great idea. Would like to know more about what these "sanctions" include though. Europa's going to be pissed they don't have representation. What are the objective measurements for being represented? I think the casual guilds are under-represented here for obvious reasons. Europa and Azure Guard came up in all sorts of scenarios as we talked this through, but now they're suddenly not considered raid guilds.

[Yinikren]

There are target the rest of the month that CAT A guilds ignore.

I see that, but given the split in guild status it should be more like 2 weeks on, two weeks off.

You are leaving one week for whatever 6 guilds aren't Category A to compete for ''prioritized' mobs, then 3 weeks for yourselves in this proposal, and that's just bullshit imo.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Category A - you state 20% is required. You realize that this means that, more than likely, only 3 guilds can stay category A at any one time? This agreement pretty much says 'We three guilds get the majority of the good mobs forever" 4 guilds means that for everyone to stay in you'd all have to be at 25%. There aren't enough targets out there for 1% granularity in these measurements. That's an incredible balancing act. At 5 guilds you'd all have to be spot on the money, which is never going to happen. Seems like this is catered towards the big 3.
.
You are counting FE and IB as different guild percentages, but they will be counted as one I am guessing? That is how they have been rolling. So there are currently only 2 groups in category A at the moment TMO and FE-IB. I do not see 5 big raid guilds on this server. Just not enough devoted players for that. So still room for another 1-2 easy, if they chose to rise.

[Derubael]

If you are a guild leader or an officer with the power to represent your guild and do not like this proposal, you should be contacting Unbrella and Zagum and working out a time where you can either A) talk about your proposal or B) make modifications to this one.

[Ecguy]

I see that, but given the split in guild status it should be more like 2 weeks on, two weeks off.

You are leaving one week for whatever 6 guilds aren't Category A to compete for ''prioritized' mobs, then 3 weeks for yourselves in this proposal.

CAT B guilds aren't prevented from attempting priority targets at any time. It lowers the amount of targets available to CAT A guilds.

[DrKvothe]

So FE and IB are a single raiding team with 4 votes on the council?

[YendorLootmonkey]

You are counting FE and IB as different guild percentages, but they will be counted as one I am guessing? That is how they have been rolling. So there are currently only 2 groups in category A at the moment TMO and FE-IB. I do not see 5 big raid guilds on this server. Just not enough devoted players for that. So still room for another 1-2 easy, if they chose to rise.

If they are raiding as one entity, then they should be represented on the guild council as one entity. Not split into 2 for the purposes out outvoting casual guilds when needed.

[Bugmuncher]

How about ok what you said but

VOX and NAGGY are FFA everyone, the CAT A/B guilds do not get to kill them at all anymore. If a specific drop is needed negotiate it, trade an uber rot/alt piece for it -OR- an epic drop!

When Velious comes add a CAT C.


Haaay

BUG

[August]

You are counting FE and IB as different guild percentages, but they will be counted as one I am guessing? That is how they have been rolling. So there are currently only 2 groups in category A at the moment TMO and FE-IB. I do not see 5 big raid guilds on this server. Just not enough devoted players for that. So still room for another 1-2 easy, if they chose to rise.

There were 3 guilds listed as Category A. i'm assuming they are all individualist. In any case, that would still leave '1' spot for a guild. It is way too easy to fall below 20% when maximum even distribution is 25%. That's a 5% margin of error.

Also, what percentage of mobs currently are taken down by TMO? If it's not less than 60% I think this server just dug itself a grave... Uncontested mobs for 3/4 of the month hot dang!.

[Yinikren]

Also, I just saw what Yendor wrote - no poopsocking rule does nothing but cater to those who have an alt army they can leave at mobs - AKA the reason we are here in the first place.

[DrKvothe]

Doesn't this just create 2 sets of the same problem we had before? One between FE/IB and TMO, another between BDA/Taken/etc.?

[Yinikren]

Doesn't this just create 2 sets of the same problem we had before? One between FE/IB and TMO, another between BDA/Taken/etc.?

That's what I see. Whatever happened to this 50/50 hybrid point system FFA system I heard about? And why was a point system not considered given it is the most unbiased system of them all? Rogean wants mobs to be split between the majority of the guilds. This isn't a majority.

[Ecguy]

Also, I just saw what Yendor wrote - no poopsocking rule does nothing but cater to those who have an alt army they can leave at mobs - AKA the reason we are here in the first place.

It does.

[Autotune]

If you are a guild leader or an officer with the power to represent your guild and do not like this proposal, you should be contacting Unbrella and Zagum and working out a time where you can either A) talk about your proposal or B) make modifications to this one.

I'd like to see Taken, Divinity, BDA, A-team, etc put together an agreement.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

all these rule proposals are great in all but without enforcement, its nothing really.

whos going to be watching everything all the time to make sure people dont break these rules?

The players.
You cannot sneak a dragon on this server.
Plenty of things listed in that OP that would police this. 1 . Being the guild council.

[Hitpoint]

People are nitpicking ridiculously over no poopsock rule and whatever else. What you should be taking away from this is that tmo and fe/ib are giving up 1/4th of their top targets every month and giving up lower priority mobs the rest of the time. Any other guild can still compete with them the rest of the time. This is a huge deal.

Lesser guilds can form alliances of their own you know..

[Kope]

I'd like to see Taken, Divinity, BDA, A-team, etc put together an agreement.

Divinity has released a proposal to the leadership of all but one top guild on the server (AG we attempted to contact but the work week caught up to us before we were able to get in touch with them).

Many were at least relatively positive about it.

[Nlaar]

I'd like to see Taken, Divinity, BDA, A-team, etc put together an agreement.

Divinity put together a nice proposal imo.

[Alarti0001]

Doesn't this just create 2 sets of the same problem we had before? One between FE/IB and TMO, another between BDA/Taken/etc.?

You guys are more than capable to set up a rotation on your mobs :)

[Ecguy]

People are nitpicking ridiculously over no poopsock rule and whatever else. What you should be taking away from this is that tmo and fe/ib are giving up 1/4th of their top targets every month and giving up lower priority mobs the rest of the time. Any other guild can still compete with them the rest of the time. This is a huge deal.

Lesser guilds can form alliances of their own you know..

But there's blood in the water. In all seriousness, the deal is a pretty big coup to the status quo.

[Autotune]

People are nitpicking ridiculously over no poopsock rule and whatever else. What you should be taking away from this is that tmo and fe/ib are giving up 1/4th of their top targets every month and giving up lower priority mobs the rest of the time. Any other guild can still compete with them the rest of the time. This is a huge deal.

Lesser guilds can form alliances of their own you know..

so in velious, we can expect TMO, FE, IB and whatever other guild that makes Cat A by then, give up all the top priority targets the first week of every month?

[Alarti0001]

That's what I see. Whatever happened to this 50/50 hybrid point system FFA system I heard about? And why was a point system not considered given it is the most unbiased system of them all? Rogean wants mobs to be split between the majority of the guilds. This isn't a majority.

Oh does he? Let Rogean speak for himself. I HIGHLY doubt that was his intention haha.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

If they are raiding as one entity, then they should be represented on the guild council as one entity. Not split into 2 for the purposes out outvoting casual guilds when needed.

Yes I would agree.
If they are together they have 2 councils total , 1 from each guild?
If they are going to be raiding apart than I assume i was wrong but i doubt it.

[Hitpoint]

so in velious, we can expect TMO, FE, IB and whatever other guild that makes Cat A by then, give up all the top priority targets the first week of every month?

I have no idea.

[Bossman]

If you are a guild leader or an officer with the power to represent your guild and do not like this proposal, you should be contacting Unbrella and Zagum and working out a time where you can either A) talk about your proposal or B) make modifications to this one.

No offense Deru, but that's BS. How is this "official" proposal given more levity than any of the proposals that were discussed (namely point system)?

Let everybody get together as hash this out, not discuss with TMO behind closed doors.

[Alarti0001]

No offense Deru, but that's BS. How is this "official" proposal given more levity than any of the proposals that were discussed (namely point system)?

Let everybody get together as hash this out, not discuss with TMO behind closed doors.

Because guilds as a whole(representing raiders) have signed off on this one.

[Autotune]

Because guilds as a whole(representing raiders) have signed off on this one.

Namely the ones causing the problems for the other guilds that wanted to raid.

[jaybone]

why does TMO need to raid until velious comes out?

[Derubael]

No offense Deru, but that's BS. How is this "official" proposal given more levity than any of the proposals that were discussed (namely point system)?

Let everybody get together as hash this out, not discuss with TMO behind closed doors.

It wasn't. If you guys want to try and work something else out, go ahead. Hence my post. Nothing is 'official' until all of you guys agree on it.

Personally I feel this is a fair agreement. The only concession I would try to make if I wasn't a 'category A' guild would be to drop inny and fay to de-prioritized targets.

[Amirite]

this is a joke right? lol that is the dumbest thing i ever half read.

i exp in vs pit all the time, i want oggok cleavers.

[DrKvothe]

If you are a guild leader or an officer with the power to represent your guild and do not like this proposal, you should be contacting Unbrella and Zagum and working out a time where you can either A) talk about your proposal or B) make modifications to this one.

So we're to take from this that this is the official new set of rules unless TMO and/or FEIB agree to another proposal? Despite them getting all of VP and 3/4 of Trak/VS/etc? This proposal is pretty much garbage, and it's pretty frustrating to see a GM propping it up before it's clear whether anyone outside of FE/IB (one raid, one voice?) and TMO are buying it.

[Kope]

why does TMO need to raid until velious comes out?

TMO deserves to raid just like every other guild on this server.

The solution to this situation is supposed to benefit the entire server, not bash TMO or have another guild benefit.

[Crosswind]

Reject. Achieves the singular distinction of being overly complicated while solving absolutely nothing. Sweet.

-Cal

[Bossman]

Because guilds as a whole(representing raiders) have signed off on this one.

Some joke agreement that you and FE/IB came up with does not constitute multiple guilds reaching a consensus. BDA and Taken endorsed a point system. Why is that not an official proposal?

[phacemeltar]

this is a dumb fucking idea. what happens when another guild comes along and wants to start raiding, yet disagrees with what you people have already proposed? this faux democracy is just another step back into the bad which was TMO-reign.

[JayN]

why does TMO need to raid until velious comes out?

cause they'd cease to exist; hardly seems fair to newer members or recruits; this isnt about neutering whos on top. It is about making raiding tenable for EVERYONE

[jaybone]

TMO deserves to raid just like every other guild on this server.

The solution to this situation is supposed to benefit the entire server, not bash TMO or have another guild benefit.

not really. the only thing they have left to gain from Kunark is padding their RMT accounts.

[Derubael]

So we're to take from this that this is the official new set of rules unless TMO and/or FEIB agree to another proposal? Despite them getting all of VP and 3/4 of Trak/VS/etc? This proposal is pretty much garbage, and it's pretty frustrating to see a GM propping it up before it's clear whether anyone outside of FE/IB (one raid, one voice?) and TMO are buying it.

No, you guys all need to agree on something. As per Sirken's post, if an agreement isn't reached by the 2nd, everyone is raid suspended until you do.

We aren't going to 'sanction' anything until everyone is in agreement.

[Ecguy]

So we're to take from this that this is the official new set of rules unless TMO and/or FEIB agree to another proposal? Despite them getting all of VP and 3/4 of Trak/VS/etc? This proposal is pretty much garbage, and it's pretty frustrating to see a GM propping it up before it's clear whether anyone outside of FE/IB (one raid, one voice?) and TMO are buying it.

Getting? They still have to compete. It's not a perfect proposal, but it's decent.

[Ecguy]

No, you guys all need to agree on something. As per Sirken's post, if an agreement isn't reached by the 2nd, everyone is raid suspended until you do.

We aren't going to 'sanction' anything until everyone is in agreement.

I am curious what constitutes everyone. That would be pretty important for continued discussion.

[Bossman]

Deru, what happened to majority rules as per Rogean?

[JayN]

No, you guys all need to agree on something. As per Sirken's post, if an agreement isn't reached by the 2nd, everyone is raid suspended until you do.

We aren't going to 'sanction' anything until everyone is in agreement.

But that is infact exactly what you are doing sir, by letting people who do not raid dictate to people who do raid; they gain nothing by agreeing to any kind of terms.

[Bossman]

This proposal effective lets BDA, Div, Taken, and others compete solely against each other once a month for Trak. Assuming a three way split, how long would it take a guild to get VP keyed? Assume a 3 way split or VS...how many epic/year is that?

[DrKvothe]

No, you guys all need to agree on something. As per Sirken's post, if an agreement isn't reached by the 2nd, everyone is raid suspended until you do.

We aren't going to 'sanction' anything until everyone is in agreement.

OK, thank you. Realized how rude my post was after I submitted, so thank you for your polite response.

Would the GMs consider an agreement without TMO and/or FEIB's approval if BDA, Taken, AG, Europa, Divinity, etc. are all on board? Seems like at this point, FEIB and TMO might pull some Republican bullshit and shut everything down if we don't agree to their terms.

[Autotune]

I just want to state one thing for the guilds that are clearly upset with this. If a large amount of guilds who already aren't getting raid targets don't like this, veto it and if the big 3 aren't willing to budge on this, they will be the ones losing targets.

The majority of the server already aren't getting raid targets, so in a way you have been raid suspended for the past few years. You guys have the upper hand here, don't let this blindside you and force you to make a rash decision by agreeing because there is the raid suspension deadline.

[Bossman]

OK, thank you. Realized how rude my post was after I submitted, so thank you for your polite response.

Would the GMs consider an agreement without TMO and/or FEIB's approval if BDA, Taken, AG, Europa, Divinity, etc. are all on board? Seems like at this point, FEIB and TMO might pull some Republican bullshit and shut everything down if we don't agree to their terms.

Honestly let them. These "elites" will be far more hurt from not raiding than us casual scum.

[lilyanna]

Just want to clarify something, because right now there is an assumption on this thread it seems that FE and TMO are the only two "top tier" guilds involved. That is actually not the case, IB and FE work together, that does not mean that FE speak for IB and I am sure that is not how FE would expect it to be interpreted either :)

[williestargell]

It'd be advantageious to the "b" guilds to have the priority target list be as large as possible. Take those mobs off the list and there's virtually nothing that the big boys are declining to kill during their week off.

[Bossman]

I just want to state one thing for the guilds that are clearly upset with this. If a large amount of guilds who already aren't getting raid targets don't like this, veto it and if the big 3 aren't willing to budge on this, they will be the ones losing targets.

The majority of the server already aren't getting raid targets, so in a way you have been raid suspended for the past few years. You guys have the upper hand here, don't let this blindside you and force you to make a rash decision by agreeing because there is the raid suspension deadline.

^^ this ^^

[-Catherin-]

Need to change it to the slaying of a VP Dragon, not just the attempt. Being penalized from other raid targets doesn't help you grow into a guild that can actually compete. it just keeps those on top from having to worry about loosing anything in VP once again.

[Ecguy]

OK, thank you. Realized how rude my post was after I submitted, so thank you for your polite response.

Would the GMs consider an agreement without TMO and/or FEIB's approval if BDA, Taken, AG, Europa, Divinity, etc. are all on board? Seems like at this point, FEIB and TMO might pull some Republican bullshit and shut everything down if we don't agree to their terms.

Excluding the most hardcore raiders would have a lot of unintended consequences to any agreement. And it wouldn't really be an agreement either.

[Yinikren]

I just want to state one thing for the guilds that are clearly upset with this. If a large amount of guilds who already aren't getting raid targets don't like this, veto it and if the big 3 aren't willing to budge on this, they will be the ones losing targets.

The majority of the server already aren't getting raid targets, so in a way you have been raid suspended for the past few years. You guys have the upper hand here, don't let this blindside you and force you to make a rash decision by agreeing because there is the raid suspension deadline.

I can live with not raiding a month if it means fixing a one sided proposal like this.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

The only concession I would try to make if I wasn't a 'category A' guild would be to drop inny and fay to de-prioritized targets.
This should already be in the writing. Or people sending tells to these leaders to get it wrote up.
I agree. Even if its just Inny one month an fay the next (back an forth). They are getting tons of raid mobs left up with this proposal. Way more than before , and it gives every lower guild a big chance at mobs. + they have the chance to steal our mobs still too.
But for some reason it just seems like nothing but a full blown rotation (forced by GM's) will make these people happy.

[phacemeltar]

No, you guys all need to agree on something. As per Sirken's post, if an agreement isn't reached by the 2nd, everyone is raid suspended until you do.

We aren't going to 'sanction' anything until everyone is in agreement.

plz ban them

[Pullyn]

I can live with not raiding a month if it means fixing a one sided proposal like this.

+1

[Pheer]

So what Im getting from this so far is that some of you want to hold the raid scene hostage to force some kind of calendar rotation or communist russia mob rationing system, while simultaneously accusing TMO and IB/FE of stacking the deck to favor themselves. Ok cool.

[Bossman]

This should already be in the writing. Or people sending tells to these leaders to get it wrote up.
I agree. Even if its just Inny one month an fay the next (back an forth). They are getting tons of raid mobs left up with this proposal. Way more than before , and it gives every lower guild a big chance at mobs.
But for some reason it just seems like nothing but a full blown rotation (forced by GM's) will make these people happy.

Hard to complete other epic without VS. Maybe "these people" are tired of a small percentage of server population telling is what we can and cannot do.

[happyhappy]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81892

Why is anything outside of VP in Priority class again?

[Frieza_Prexus]

I'd suggest removing Fay/Sev/Inny from priority target list.

The big 3 can always get green scales from Hosh, Fay is one of those easy dragons that would allow smaller guilds to compete for them (lvl55).

This is a good suggestion.

[Ecguy]

Need to change it to the slaying of a VP Dragon, not just the attempt. Being penalized from other raid targets doesn't help you grow into a guild that can actually compete. it just keeps those on top from having to worry about loosing anything in VP once again.

This is not a bad idea.

[baalzy]

1) This is an 'Official Proposal' from IB/FE (Maybe just FE?) and has been signed by IB/FE (Maybe just FE?) and TMO. Not the 'Official rules moving forward', at least, not yet.

2) I think this is reasonable if you really try to look at things objectively and don't get caught up in the gleaming lights of Bag limits and such. Those ideas, while being great, would also naturally lead to people leaving the 'hardcore' guilds for guilds with fewer raid-goers. It's not reasonable to expect the 'big players' to reduce their member-size just to be able to distribute gear in a reasonable fashion. I'd say the VP thing is a bit dodgy (should really be in effect after 1st successful kill) and the Inny/Fay inclusion on the non-priority list that Alarti threw out and Derubael seconded is a good idea too.

3) Nothing is stopping 'B' guilds from competing for every non-vp mob in the game, this agreement is basically a check on the top-guilds saying they'll make sure that 20-30% of ALL raid targets get distributed to the less hardcore guilds.

4) This gives the hardcores the ability to get their rocks-off while preventing a server-wide cockblock of all desirable pixels by one guild.

[Ella`Ella]

This proposal effective lets BDA, Div, Taken, and others compete solely against each other once a month for Trak. Assuming a three way split, how long would it take a guild to get VP keyed? Assume a 3 way split or VS...how many epic/year is that?

There is nothing in this proposal that disallows and person or guild from raiding priority targets every day of the month. It seems more to me your unwillingness to try and engage these mobs while FE, IB and TMO are contesting them as well...

[Jesseca]

I guess we are considered Category C? Which did not exist on that proposal.

[Rusl]

1) This is an 'Official Proposal' from FE and has been signed by FE and TMO. Not the 'Official rules moving forward', at least, not yet.

2) I think this is reasonable if you really try to look at things objectively and don't get caught up in the gleaming lights of Bag limits and such. Those ideas, while being great, would also naturally lead to people leaving the 'hardcore' guilds for guilds with fewer raid-goers. It's not reasonable to expect the 'big players' to reduce their member-size just to be able to distribute gear in a reasonable fashion. I'd say the VP thing is a bit dodgy (should really be in effect after 1st successful kill) and the Inny/Fay inclusion on the non-priority list that Alarti threw out and Derubael seconded is a good idea too.

3) Nothing is stopping 'B' guilds from competing for every non-vp mob in the game, this agreement is basically a check on the top-guilds saying they'll make sure that 20-30% of ALL raid targets get distributed to the less hardcore guilds.

4) This gives the hardcores the ability to get their rocks-off while preventing a server-wide cockblock of all desirable pixels by one guild.

If you don't see Getsome posting in here then no, IB has not signed off on anything

[Bossman]

Council needs to be amended to include others and sanction vote should be x-2/x vote, because "IB and FE are different guilds"

[Ella`Ella]

I would agree for FE that we will concede inny as well, but fay will remain. And, we can revisit the VP attempt to a kill.

[Ambrotos]

The only thing settle is there isn't a agreement. If you don't like it, get together and fix it. I'm still having a hard time why only 2 guilds are coming to an agreement and passing it off to the others on here as here it is do you want to agree?

Include all your counterparts and hash it out. Seems two major factions have two different ideas.

[August]

Some clarification.

no poopsocking - you are basically saying no poop socking but people are still allowed to camp alt armies in the zone waiting for pops? (which seems an awful lot like poopsocking but being able to play your alts while you wait)

Cat A & Cat B - Are Cat B guilds allowed to mobilize during the majority of the time (3/4) that Cat A guilds have claimed their prioritized mobs?

Rotations - how do the Category A guilds plan on sharing mobs? The same way they have in the past? Is not the majority of the 'upset' people FE/IB complaining that TMO gets the mobs? How are we rectifying the tension between Category A guilds?

Switching categories - Is the 40% requirement only on priority raid targets? Or is it deprioritizied as well? Seems like an extremely stiff requirement to begin with, but if they have to compete with the uberguilds for that percentage it seems impossible.

Category A - you state 20% is required. You realize that this means that, more than likely, only 3 guilds can stay category A at any one time? This agreement pretty much says 'We three guilds get the majority of the good mobs forever" 4 guilds means that for everyone to stay in you'd all have to be at 25%. There aren't enough targets out there for 1% granularity in these measurements. That's an incredible balancing act. At 5 guilds you'd all have to be spot on the money, which is never going to happen. Seems like this is catered towards the big 3.

Nice attempt, just think that the numbers need to be adjusted. Current implementation locks the server into a top-3 mentality with an extremely stiff climb to make it a top 4. Once in top 4, it is almost necessity that someone gets ejected. Replacement effects are nice, but with the ability to poopsock via alts I just don't see anything really changing here besides casuals getting thrown a bone 1 week a month.

could you please address my points? I think that several points are not clear, and I would appreciation clarification.

[DrKvothe]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81892

Why is anything outside of VP in Priority class again?

Interesting idea. VP for TMO/FEIB 3 weeks a month, all other raid mobs 1 week a month. VP for everyone else 1 week a month, all other raid mobs 3 weeks a month.

[-Catherin-]

HANDS OFF PERIOD
As of January 1, 2014, Category A guilds will be considered “Hands Off” for any Priority raid targets during the first 7 days of each calendar month. During that time period, Category A guilds will avoid any of their priority targets and open them to the rest of the server. This will however exclude raid targets in Veeshan’s Peak.

[/U][/I][/B]

while there are ridiculous variences that can cause mobs to go 10 or more days before spawning, this should be amended to CAT A guilds will not go for the first priority spawns of each month instead. 7 days allows a rather high probability that a lot of these mobs will still spawn after that

[Yinikren]

There is nothing in this proposal that disallows and person or guild from raiding priority targets every day of the month. It seems more to me your unwillingness to try and engage these mobs while FE, IB and TMO are contesting them as well...

There is nothing right now that stops us from attempting to raid priority targets every day of the month. That's one reason this proposal is failing. At the very least, it needs to be one week on, one week off, to be considered by everyone else.

[Autotune]

The main thing wrong with this is that it severely hurts guilds that try to go from CAT B to CAT A.

Especially any guild trying to move into VP (which will no where be near gear/skill as established CAT A guilds). So you punish them for 3 months by limiting them severely. Not to mention any CAT B guild has a very long way to go to be on equal terms gear/skill wise as a CAT A guild.

I'm sorry, I don't see this as a way to grow guilds at all, instead it snuffs it out. You give a major incentive to not grow as a guild though, just compete among yourselves the first week and be wary of trying to play catch up.

[Scoresby]

I think a revision to this proposal which seems more fair to the server is.

GroupA - TMO and FE/IB
GroubB - Everyone Else

Priority Targets (can be focused on by GroupA) - All of VP
Non-Priority Target (cannot be focused on by GroupA) - The rest of the raid mobs

If you manage to achieve 25% or more of the kills in VP in a month, you are considered GroupA.

The first week of the month, GroupA can compete with GroupB for all targets. The remainder of the month, non-priority targets are not killed by GroupA.

Poopsocking in all its forms are from here forward a bannable offense. The definition of poopsocking is having a raid character in the zone at the spawn point of a boss (either actively playing or logged out). I would suspect a few fraps of this would fix people from using this tactic?

In all seriousness...

Some of this is a hyperbolic attempt at pointing out how ridiculous the initial proposal seems. The poopsocking idea I do think should go forward. I can't imagine how the top tier raiders feel there is realistic competition in having alts camped out at the boss. There is no rush to engage, it's just phone a friend and kill a dragon. You will not ever have serious "competition" if those are the lengths you must go to.

At the end of the day, bigger compromise is needed between the top tier and less hardcore raid guilds. This server is VERY mature in terms of where we are expansion wise vs age of the server. There are significantly more guilds capable of downing a raid target than any server ever experienced on live. Because of that there need to be serious concessions to keep a healthy server.

I think the biggest thing lurking in the back of my mind is honestly how many more Trak/VS kills do TMO/FE/IB (especially TMO) honestly need to be competitive. I would venture it's a very small number.

[Ecguy]

The main thing wrong with this is that it severely hurts guilds that try to go from CAT B to CAT A.

Especially any guild trying to move into VP (which will no where be near gear/skill as established CAT A guilds). So you punish them for 3 months by limiting them severely. Not to mention any CAT B guild has a very long way to go to be on equal terms gear/skill wise as a CAT A guild.

I'm sorry, I don't see this as a way to grow guilds at all, instead it snuffs it out. You give a major incentive to not grow as a guild though, just compete among yourselves the first week and be wary of trying to play catch up.

It's much better than the current state.

[scooter]

This plan does absolutely nothing to better the server. Just another example of tmo/fe/ib bullying -- "official proposal" everyone sign here - guilds contact you.

Who are you trying to fool?

7 days of "no touch" but oh yeah only if we don't need it.

Those of you that are clinging to this believe that you LOVE the competitiveness of the raid scene are full of it. there hasnt been competition on this server for 2 years - I'm sorry it ain't classic when countless members of these so called tier A guilds have numerous raid geared chars camped out at every target. that's not competition, its 2+ years of monopolizing and abusing the free to play of this server.

Divinity plan has the basis for the entire server to enjoy the action

2 weeks rotation INCLUDING VP
2 weeks FFA with bag limit

Sorry but this proposal is just some wool that the bullies want you to pull over your eyes and sign cuz they dangle a tiny fricking carrot of 7 days off when its convenient for them.

[Autotune]

It's much better than the current state.

A shit flavored cookie is much better than shit in the shape of a cookie too, but i'd rather not be forced to choose between the two. No thanks, I'll wait till I'm able to eat something without shit in the title.

[Ecguy]

I think a revision to this proposal which seems more fair to the server is.

GroupA - TMO and FE/IB
GroubB - Everyone Else

Priority Targets (can be focused on by GroupA) - All of VP
Non-Priority Target (cannot be focused on by GroupA) - The rest of the raid mobs

If you manage to achieve 25% or more of the kills in VP in a month, you are considered GroupA.

The first week of the month, GroupA can compete with GroupB for all targets. The remainder of the month, non-priority targets are not killed by GroupA.

Poopsocking in all its forms are from here forward a bannable offense. The definition of poopsocking is having a raid character in the zone at the spawn point of a boss (either actively playing or logged out). I would suspect a few fraps of this would fix people from using this tactic?

In all seriousness...

Some of this is a hyperbolic attempt at pointing out how ridiculous the initial proposal seems. The poopsocking idea I do think should go forward. I can't imagine how the top tier raiders feel there is realistic competition in having alts camped out at the boss. There is no rush to engage, it's just phone a friend and kill a dragon. You will not ever have serious "competition" if those are the lengths you must go to.

In all seriousness, some bigger compromise is needed. I think the biggest thing lurking in the back of my mind is honestly how many more Trak/VS kills do TMO/FE/IB (especially TMO) honestly need to be competitive. I would venture it's a very small number.

CAT A guilds have lots of newer players that still want to raid lower targets. What this actually might do is cause people to join CAT B guilds to farm their gear then join the CAT A guild for when they are ready to move on to VP.

[baalzy]

Maybe TMO can extend an olive branch and offer 3 additional trak teeth to any Cat B guild who downs a Trak so guilds can make themselves VP capable quicker.

[-Catherin-]

CAT A De-Prioritized Raid Targets:
Gorenoire, Talendor, Maestro of Rancor & Dracolich (solo spawn)

CAT A Priority Raid Targets:
Cazic Thule (Draco), Venril Sathir, Trakanon, Faydedar, Innourouk, Severillous
[/U][/I][/B]

Inny, Sev, and Fay moved to de-prioritized. Sev specifically as CAT A guilds will have free reign in VP

[Ecguy]

Inny, Sev, and Fay moved to de-prioritized. Sev specifically as CAT A guilds will have free reign in VP

+1

[JayN]

if your raid group Killed said raid mob last week/spawn cycle; they must wait one full week/ full spawn cycle to attempt such mob again.... pretty simply

Variance would Need to be removed and spawn cycles adjusted/normalized.

Also I would really recommended adding Epic "ghost mobs" in now, so people can complete epics.

this tier system seems very easy to exploit need something simple, like live

[Ella`Ella]

while there are ridiculous variences that can cause mobs to go 10 or more days before spawning, this should be amended to CAT A guilds will not go for the first priority spawns of each month instead. 7 days allows a rather high probability that a lot of these mobs will still spawn after that

We're heavily negotiating to have these variances reduced. Otherwise, we suggested sitting out on each priority mob that spawns first each week.

[DrKvothe]

JayN, I agree the proposed plan here is crap, but so is the alternating bullshit. Just means TMO and FEIB alternate everything.

[Ecguy]

if your raid group Killed said raid mob last week/spawn cycle; they must wait one full week/ full spawn cycle to attempt such mob again.... pretty simply

Variance would Need to be removed and spawn cycles adjusted/normalized.

Also I would really recommended adding Epic "ghost mobs" in now, so people can complete epics.

this tier system seems very easy to exploit need something simple, like live

Velious did a lot of this.

[Aaron]

I guess we are considered Category C? Which did not exist on that proposal.

The Mystical Order, Forceful Entry, and Inglorious Basterds will start in category A. All other guilds will start as Category B.

[Scoresby]

CAT A guilds have lots of newer players that still want to raid lower targets. What this actually might do is cause people to join CAT B guilds to farm their gear then join the CAT A guild for when they are ready to move on to VP.

You say this like it would be a bad thing....it happens already. At least other guilds would be getting low priority targets.

[SirAlvarex]

Decent idea in theory...

Poopsocking: If anything, this just helps guilds with alt-armies even more so than now. I'd rather see the inverse, you must be logged into the character to poopsock. The mobilization of just logging into a toon already camped out at a raid boss allows for spreading out the kills on different spawns. Plus if people are actualyl logged in, there can be an agreement on who gets FTE in case a rotation is desired.

Variance: Lower it down to like +/- one hour, that way people dont' just time it down to the last second.

The 7-day window: Make it 10 days, that way there is a *chance* of having 2 7-day spawn mobs pop in the same window. Plus it's a more even 1/3 of the month split. Or just go flat out the first spawn of each month as Catherine suggested, that way we aren't fooling ourselves.

Prioritization: If it is true that CLASS-A guilds *cannot* go after deprioritized mobs except for that first window, then sure, sounds good. But if it's just "we'll try not to" then eh, not quite the line in the sand that would make the deal even.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

So what Im getting from this so far is that some of you want to hold the raid scene hostage to force some kind of calendar rotation or communist russia mob rationing system, while simultaneously accusing TMO and IB/FE of stacking the deck to favor themselves. Ok cool.

lol that is what it seems they want. Its not going to happen. Push for a little more , sure. But a full blown rotation is not going to be enforced by GM's.
With this proposal the big guilds would be leaving up lots of raid mobs each month that THEY CANNOT TOUCH. Yet the big guilds mobs are open game for everyone. So it really is fair once the kinks get worked out.

[aldred]

HANDS OFF PERIOD
As of January 1, 2014, Category A guilds will be considered “Hands Off” for any Priority raid targets during the first 7 days of each calendar month. During that time period, Category A guilds will avoid any of their priority targets and open them to the rest of the server. This will however exclude raid targets in Veeshan’s Peak.

There's a copyright on this here (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1234294#post1234294).

I'll make a fee of 100pp to use it :D

[OriginalQin]

The whole thing seems like a headache with a lot of paperwork involved. Difficult to explain, gonna be difficult to enforce. What is so bad about removing variance and having some kind of a rotation or a limit that a guild can't re-kill the same target during the next three spawns?

[goshozal]

Due to FE and IB getting 1 vote each on the council, they would be immune to sanctions which require 5/6.

This is assuming they are still raiding as a unit rather than splitting into 2 guilds.

[Bossman]

Due to FE and IB getting 1 vote each on the council, they would be immune to sanctions which require 5/6.

This is assuming they are still raiding as a unit rather than splitting into 2 guilds.

I already mentioned this, but I'm happy somebody else notices as well.

Also everybody needs to stop proposing that variance is reduced that is OFF THE TABLE at this time.

[Pheer]

Due to FE and IB getting 1 vote each on the council, they would be immune to sanctions which require 5/6.

This is assuming they are still raiding as a unit rather than splitting into 2 guilds.

Surely youre not suggesting that FE/IB would seriously be able to break the rules of an agreement like that and avoid consequences through some kind of e-politics loophole when the gms already said they would be enforcing whatever the players decide on.

By that same argument ANY guilds on the "council" could form an alliance against the others and make themselves immune, you're simply singling out FE/IB because they already have had a relationship in place.

[Autotune]

I just talked with some people in IB and they haven't agreed with this proposal.

Just like to let people know that this is an FE & TMO proposal.

I'd like to wait and see what the other guilds, including IB would like to propose or what system they would like to back.

[Crosswind]

With this proposal the big guilds would be leaving up lots of raid mobs each month that THEY CANNOT TOUCH.

" we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item."

...Except for the big where if TMO alt #23049834 needs a piece of gear, TMO will totally track that thing. =)

Good try.

-Cross

[Bossman]

FE/IB have essentially been acting like one guild, so they should be treated as one until they present otherwise.

[Bamz4l]

tl;dr

i'd like to make an official proposal to keep all proposals to a two-sentence minimum. This is a sample second sentence.

[Bossman]

" we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item."

...Except for the big where if TMO alt #23049834 needs a piece of gear, TMO will totally track that thing. =)

Good try.

-Cross

Yeah WTF is that BS clause?

[Aaron]

The whole thing seems like a headache with a lot of paperwork involved. Difficult to explain, gonna be difficult to enforce. What is so bad about removing variance and having some kind of a rotation or a limit that a guild can't re-kill the same target during the next three spawns?

Staff specifically said to come to an agreement undervthe assumption that the devs aren't changing anything. So coming to an agreement based on the need for the devs to change things is kinda a bad idea.

[Pheer]

" we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item."

...Except for the big where if TMO alt #23049834 needs a piece of gear, TMO will totally track that thing. =)

Good try.

-Cross

Did you even read it? Thats referring to the lower priority mobs. The high priority mobs would be completely hands off for the category A guilds during that time. I havent even made up my mind one way or the other about how I feel about this plan, but lets at least not make shit up in the process of discussing it.

[-Catherin-]

We're heavily negotiating to have these variances reduced. Otherwise, we suggested sitting out on each priority mob that spawns first each week.

This is no better than the original proposal of 7 days. even worse in ways. that's 4? priority targets in an entire month. no thanks.

This whole thing has a lot of holes in it. but leaving each of the first "priority" targets up of the month is a no brainer. Anyone who reads into this alternate suggestion can see it's not better at all

[Pheer]

Yeah WTF is that BS clause?

What exactly is bullshit about it? Its stating that category A guilds would be limited to the lower priority mobs during that time period, and also that they might not necessarily even kill those either unless they actually need something from them.

[goshozal]

Surely youre not suggesting that FE/IB would seriously be able to break the rules of an agreement like that and avoid consequences through some kind of e-politics loophole when the gms already said they would be enforcing whatever the players decide on.

That is exactly what I am suggesting. The agreement says that the GM's can always override the council but will defer to it. There is a potential for abuse here.

By that same argument ANY guilds on the "council" could form an alliance against the others and make themselves immune, you're simply singling out FE/IB because they already have had a relationship in place.

Are you suggesting that two guilds which raid together are just going to vote for their partner guild to be sanctioned?

[drktmplr12]

not really. the only thing they have left to gain from Kunark is padding their RMT accounts.

worthless post is worthless

[Yinikren]

Wait, so IB didn't even endorse this?

No wonder this proposal is retarded.

Keep guilds where they are, no penalty for attempting VP mobs. One week on, one week off for what sets of mobs the guilds can attempt. All this 3 week bullshit does is game mobs towards TMOs 3 week stint since the average spawn time of most 7 day mobs ends up being like 8 1/2 days. There's a good chance we won't even see mobs the one week we can attempt "priority mobs" without you breathing down our necks.

And lol at the "unless we need gear from unprioritized mob we won't track it". Hahahahaha. You guys are fuckin' funny.

[OriginalQin]

tl;dr

i'd like to make an official proposal to keep all proposals to a two-sentence minimum. This is a sample second sentence.

Amazing. Let me try:

Guild leaders roll once per spawn cycle on each named raid target. Winner gets priority; second place and cascading downward take priority in the event of a failure.


(I cheated with a semicolon.)

[OriginalQin]

Staff specifically said to come to an agreement undervthe assumption that the devs aren't changing anything. So coming to an agreement based on the need for the devs to change things is kinda a bad idea.

That may be the case, but there's been a lot of talk about negotiations to have variances reduced or removed. Nevertheless, my proposal works either way. Just the variance becomes obsolete at that point. But I'd rather go with a lottery.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I think the system as presented is reasonably fair, but I think it is a bit complex which poses a problem to its longevity. A straight-up hands off 7 days (excluding vp) would likely be much easier to implement.

Any guilds that raid together for a mob more than, say 3 times for any reason, in a 90 day period will be treated as 1 guild for the following 90 days. They will shuffle their representatives and be given a single vote in any decisions.

A guild should be a major guild if it takes a certain # of targets in a month OR it kills a VP dragon which makes it major for a certain amount of time.

[phacemeltar]

Raid leaders FFA duel in arena, once per raid target, to determine who gets first shot. If group wipes, second-to-last man-standing gets a go.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Seems two major factions have two different ideas.
Seems the 2 factions your looking at are Raiders and non raiders. Non raiders meaning they expect mob A up at a set time so they can log in to kill it.
You really expect a full on forum agreement between people who want to raid and people who are casual and want a rotation?
These forums are full of trolls an people who do not even care if anyone raids. So expect to see some dislike. I am guessing once the small kinks are worked out that this plan is the best out there. An will be accepted.

[Frieza_Prexus]

We're quickly approaching a point where there is no "zone of agreement."

Too many people are going to pull in different directions and there will soon be no solution that is acceptable to all parties. We're looking at another UNCLOS or the 1979 Moon Treaty.

[Yinikren]

We don't want a gamed system that hands you guys mobs 3/4 of the time. That's not an improvement over the shit we've dealt with the last two years .

One week on, one week off makes this system bearable. Variance still screws people each week.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Non raiders meaning they expect mob A up at a set time so they can log in to kill it.

A lot of the "non raiders" seemed to support a bag limit, which did not imply an expectation of mob A up at a set time so they can log in to kill it at all. It implied guilds make better decisions about which mobs they really needed and allocate their quotas for the month accordingly, with full competition the way the raiders like.

[Autotune]

We're quickly approaching a point where there is no "zone of agreement."

Too many people are going to pull in different directions and there will soon be no solution that is acceptable to all parties. We're looking at another UNCLOS or the 1979 Moon Treaty.

I think once everyone is on the same terms (not being able to raid) perhaps we will see something more agreeable.

[Pheer]

Are you suggesting that two guilds which raid together are just going to vote for their partner guild to be sanctioned?

If you seriously believe IB or FE would approve of the other breaking the rules JUST because of the raiding relationship theyve had then I think you should probably re-tag to Tinfoil Hats.

[-Catherin-]

A lot of the "non raiders" seemed to support a bag limit, which did not imply an expectation of mob A up at a set time so they can log in to kill it at all. It implied guilds make better decisions about which mobs they really needed and allocate their quotas for the month accordingly, with full competition the way the raiders like.

Im more in favor of this. points systems have been suggested and I think they are by far still the best ideas. Everyone that wants "competition" still gets it. And the smaller guilds don't get ground into the dirt.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

I think the system as presented is reasonably fair, but I think it is a bit complex which poses a problem to its longevity. A straight-up hands off 7 days (excluding vp) would likely be much easier to implement.

Any guilds that raid together for a mob more than, say 3 times for any reason, in a 90 day period will be treated as 1 guild for the following 90 days. They will shuffle their representatives and be given a single vote in any decisions.

A guild should be a major guild if it takes a certain # of targets in a month OR it kills a VP dragon which makes it major for a certain amount of time.

Agreed. Hope some things are changed but it is sounding good. I believe it should be a VP kill not attempt. Also they have added Inny it looks like to the list of freebies? So theres another good step for the casuals. Hands off 7 days on all mobs for sure. Maybe even throw in 1 free VP dragon each month? they could push for that too. That is a hell of a proposal and a big compromise from before.
FULL blown rotation is not going to happen people, please be reasonable.

[Yinikren]

Again, proponent for a bag limit/point system. Read my thread. Its the most unbiased solution out there, which means only FE and TMO don't like it. It even has endorsement from members of IB.

[-Catherin-]

Again, proponent for a bag limit/point system. Read my thread. Its the most unbiased solution out there, which means only FE and TMO don't like it. It even has endorsement from members of IB.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132779

while the point values are not set in stone. I highly support the overall idea and those that are not happy with this proposal should really give it a look.

[DrKvothe]

Im more in favor of this. points systems have been suggested and I think they are by far still the best ideas. Everyone that wants "competition" still gets it. And the smaller guilds don't get ground into the dirt.

Agreed. Trying to fix this piece of crap proposal is a waste of time. Support a point system that encourages competition but more evenly distributes raid targets.

[goshozal]

If you seriously believe IB or FE would approve of the other breaking the rules JUST because of the raiding relationship theyve had then I think you should probably re-tag to Tinfoil Hats.

I pointed out a gap in the system that could be abused. As you pointed out, it could be abused by any two guilds. However, two guilds with a pre-existing relationship is a big red flag in my eyes.

You don't have to agree with me, but it's hardly paranoia.

[Frieza_Prexus]

We don't want a gamed system that hands you guys mobs 3/4 of the time. That's not an improvement over the shit we've dealt with the last two years .

One week on, one week off makes this system bearable. Variance still screws people each week.

And the hardcores do not want a system that allocates an equal amount of kills to the groups that are less willing to spend more effort.

The hardcores need to respect that casuals have a reasonable expectation to participate in the end game. The casuals need to respect the dedication and effort of the hardcores.

One week of uncontested raiding is roughly a quarter of spawns in a month. Many are suggesting a 50/50 division (week on week off). This affords casuals the chance to participate, but it does NOTHING to respect the effort and dedication of the hardcore. We have already established that a 100/0 split of hardcore-casual has the opposite problem.

A 75/25 split respects casuals and affords them a meaningful chance to participate in the end game, and it respects the dedication and effort of the hardcore.

[Barkingturtle]

Again, proponent for a bag limit/point system. Read my thread. Its the most unbiased solution out there, which means only FE and TMO don't like it. It even has endorsement from members of IB.

It's much less vulnerable to manipulation than this deceptively titled "official" proposal, too.

[Scoresby]

And the hardcores do not want a system that allocates an equal amount of kills to the groups that are less willing to spend more effort.

The hardcores need to respect that casuals have a reasonable expectation to participate in the end game. The casuals need to respect the dedication and effort of the hardcores.

One week of uncontested raiding is roughly a quarter of spawns in a month. Many are suggesting a 50/50 division (week on week off). This affords casuals the chance to participate, but it does NOTHING to respect the effort and dedication of the hardcore. We have already established that a 100/0 split of hardcore-casual has the opposite problem.

A 75/25 split respects casuals and affords them a meaningful chance to participate in the end game, and it respects the dedication and effort of the hardcore.

Except you're still raiding the other 25% of the time on the top tier content for the expansion. You already earn what you work for by having access to VP/Trak/VS.

[Ella`Ella]

It's much less vulnerable to manipulation than this deceptively titled "official" proposal, too.

What is open to manipulation when there are 6 guilds overseeing the actions of each other...? And, there is nothing deceptive about the title;

pro•pos•al (prəˈpoʊ zəl)

n.
1. the act of offering or suggesting something for acceptance, adoption, or performance.
2. a plan or scheme proposed.
3. an offer of marriage.

[Splorf22]

1. The whole VP thing just screams 'DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH PD WITH THOSE 6 KEYS PER WEEK'.

2. Camping out alts is a far bigger problem than poopsocking, which doesn't happen much in the days of extended variance.

3. Talendor barely drops better gear than Ragefire, and Gorenaire probably drops worse. Maestro drops almost nothing. So you guys are giving up almost no pixels other than the first week - one BCG from the 3 dracoliches that would have popped.

It's not a terrible arrangement, but it would surprise me a great deal if anyone other than you guys agrees to it. Divinity has a much more logical plan imo: 50% carebear rotation, 50% hardcore . . . whatever it is you guys do.

Sorry, not signed. But I'm not sure you need me anyway.

[YendorLootmonkey]

but it does NOTHING to respect the effort and dedication of the hardcore.

On the contrary, the effort and dedication of the hardcore has been respected for over two years now.

As has been asked several times: What more can you possibly need? If it's a matter of newer members needing gear, start trading some of that plat/equip/mq's from the guild bank and make deals for what you need off the non-VP stuff with the casuals that have been shut out because of the extremes a small percentage of the playerbase has taken the raid scene over the last two years.

[Bossman]

Agreed. Hope some things are changed but it is sounding good. I believe it should be a VP kill not attempt. Also they have added Inny it looks like to the list of freebies? So theres another good step for the casuals. Hands off 7 days on all mobs for sure. Maybe even throw in 1 free VP dragon each month? they could push for that too. That is a hell of a proposal and a big compromise from before.
FULL blown rotation is not going to happen people, please be reasonable.

Nobody has been asking for a full on rotation, are you dense?

[Durka]

One thing about the point / bag system that needs to be considered (just because my tinfoil hat started making funny sounds)

Guilds may take their 2nd, 3rd and 4th alts and make diff guilds to take advantage of this system. Not that everyone will do it right away, but it sure would evolve that way.

/tinfoil hat off

[Ciroco]

On the contrary, the effort and dedication of the hardcore has been respected for over two years now.

As has been asked several times: What more can you possibly need? If it's a matter of newer members needing gear, start trading some of that plat/equip/mq's from the guild bank and make deals for what you need off the non-VP stuff with the casuals that have been shut out because of the extremes a small percentage of the playerbase has taken the raid scene over the last two years.

So all we need is an agreement that says "stop farming crap you don't need"?

[Frieza_Prexus]

Except you're still raiding the other 25% of the time on the top tier content for the expansion. You already earn what you work for by having access to VP/Trak/VS.

It's fair to bring up that many deals leave VP out of the uncontested time frames. For the most part, it's a moot point as few guilds have the keys to slay a dragon that are not already hard core. VP can perhaps be fairly addressed through any number of ways such as altering the 75/25 split to something like 70/30 or 67/33, or just making PD the only "non-hands off dragon."

For the time being, it's relatively minor and easily addressed. My major contention is the lack of consideration for each side's viewpoint. The hardcores should be rewarded just as the casuals should be respected.

[YendorLootmonkey]

So all we need is an agreement that says "stop farming crap you don't need"?

Well, there's a bag limit/points system proposal that forces guilds to make choices along those lines... it's a start.

[Yinikren]

Catherin, I love you. You are linking me my own thread. :p

[Bossman]

And the hardcores do not want a system that allocates an equal amount of kills to the groups that are less willing to spend more effort.

The hardcores need to respect that casuals have a reasonable expectation to participate in the end game. The casuals need to respect the dedication and effort of the hardcores.

One week of uncontested raiding is roughly a quarter of spawns in a month. Many are suggesting a 50/50 division (week on week off). This affords casuals the chance to participate, but it does NOTHING to respect the effort and dedication of the hardcore. We have already established that a 100/0 split of hardcore-casual has the opposite problem.

A 75/25 split respects casuals and affords them a meaningful chance to participate in the end game, and it respects the dedication and effort of the hardcore.

75/25 is a joke. 3-6 guilds are left fighting to divy up 25% of the raid spawns?

[-Catherin-]

One week of uncontested raiding is roughly a quarter of spawns in a month. B]

no. it has already been said variance isn't going anywhere.

1 week of uncontested raiding is roughly an eighth of the spawns in a month. and that is not even considering extended variances. every mob would have to spawn in less than 7 days for it to be a quarter.

Also, its uncontested "priority targets" so lets make that even smaller than the eighth

Everyone is ignoring this like it will get swept under the rug. I wont let it :p

This proposal as it stands isn't going to fly

[Splorf22]

We're quickly approaching a point where there is no "zone of agreement."

Too many people are going to pull in different directions and there will soon be no solution that is acceptable to all parties. We're looking at another UNCLOS or the 1979 Moon Treaty.

I realize you guys made this proposal in good faith, and its not unreasonable (although the title OFFICIAL PROPOSAL' is ridiculous. It should be FE/TMO OFFICIAL PROPOSAL).

I just don't think anyone is going to agree to it. BDA and Taken don't like it because a) they can't poopsock, but you guys can still log your alt armies b) if they catch a whiff of VP they get slotted into category A for 3 months and. The A-Team, Azure Guard, and Europa don't like it because we still get to batphone and track against BDA/Taken and all of the 24 hour responsiveness and watching-the-linoleum-peel tracking nonsense that that implies.

[Lron]

This is a bad idea...you guys are going to regret making a rotation.

[YendorLootmonkey]

My major contention is the lack of consideration for each side's viewpoint. The hardcores should be rewarded just as the casuals should be respected.

It's actually more nuanced than that: Is your viewpoint that the hardcores' near-monopolization of endgame content for the last two years should be completely ignored for the purposes of this agreement? Yes or no? Because I will tell you that it IS being factored in on the casual viewpoint, and that is part of the gap in consideration.

[Frieza_Prexus]

On the contrary, the effort and dedication of the hardcore has been respected for over two years now.

A lop sided situation in the past should not be solved with a lopsided solution. It breeds only resentment and contempt. This is a clean slate and we should treat it as such moving forward. Whatever solution is created should be fair on its own merits.

75/25 is a joke. 3-6 guilds are left fighting to divy up 25% of the raid spawns?

The numbers can be adjusted if necessary to achieve consensus. The point is that a 50/50 split does not address the root of the hardcore's concerns. VP can be added to the hands off period, or it can remain off and simply be used as a bargaining chip that will affect the exact terms of the % split regarding the hands off period.

[Yinikren]

Point system. There's not enough good left in this proposal (except the guild council which should have been formed long ago) to even fight for.

[Hitpoint]

Can't believe how negative this thread is. I thought we were the ones getting screwed by this deal and somehow everyone else is mad.

[Funkutron5000]

I'll post what I roughly posted in Sirken's thread. This isn't the time for people to extract their pound of flesh for what they feel are past wrongs. This is the time for us to work together to hash out a deal or else none of us can play.

[Autotune]

A lop sided situation in the past should not be solved with a lopsided solution. It breeds only resentment and contempt. This is a clean slate and we should treat it as such moving forward. Whatever solution is created should be fair on its own merits.



The numbers can be adjusted if necessary to achieve consensus. The point is that a 50/50 split does not address the root of the hardcore's concerns. VP can be added to the hands off period, or it can remain off and simply be used as a bargaining chip that will affect the exact terms of the % split regarding the hands off period.

You guys need to stop trying to split the raid scene in any % for the different "types" of guilds and come up with a system that applies to everyone equally.

[Bossman]

A lop sided situation in the past should not be solved with a lopsided solution. It breeds only resentment and contempt. This is a clean slate and we should treat it as such moving forward. Whatever solution is created should be fair on its own merits.



The numbers can be adjusted if necessary to achieve consensus. The point is that a 50/50 split does not address the root of the hardcore's concerns. VP can be added to the hands off period, or it can remain off and simply be used as a bargaining chip that will affect the exact terms of the % split regarding the hands off period.

50/50 is incredibly fair. 50% of the mobs for 90% of the server and 50% for the hardcore 10%. How is that not an equitable solution?

[benjay]

When coming to a global agreement there will always be unavoidable issues, this is true for the system that everyone is trying to implement here, the Hardcore raiders will naturally have a 'unfair' advantage over the casual guilds in the goal that the majority want to achieve.

The problem with the current scene on this box is that you have 2 'raid teams' that can field a force much larger than there opposition, they have been able to this because they have put a much higher effort into the game than the casual players, its that simple. However they have reached a point where regardless of how well they play or how much effort they put in they are going to constantly improve to a point that is not reachable by there opposition, they have basically 'won' the box.

A solution to this, hindering there momentum of improvement would be to have an automated transport to bind every 3 days if a character has not been logged in and logged out in a different zone.

However, food for thought, if you cap the potential loot any 1 guild can achieve in any period of time, would they still be able to field numbers that they currently have, for instance if you are capped to say 3 targets a week (a possibility using the weighted system) yet you are fielding 50 people a night, there is a very low chance of you getting loot, especially when the current targets could probably be killed with 6-12 people. Therefore limiting the targets that a guild can kill could produce more competition for the entire server while making it more 'fair'.

final food for thought, does the server hold a population of potential raid teams that is to high for the content out there for even the possibility of a realistic agreement?

[Ella`Ella]

75/25 is a joke. 3-6 guilds are left fighting to divy up 25% of the raid spawns?

Why is everyone failing to understand that every guild in category B can engage any mob at any time...? Just because TMO, FE, IB are going for priority targets doesn't mean that any other guild can as well. The only ones suffering any restrictions currently are TMO/FE/IB. And, really --- the promotion to Category A aspect really keeps BDA (since they're the heir apparent) from shitting all over the little guilds since they have the infrastructure to be the big bad wolf amongst those in Cat B.

[jaybone]

How about FE and TMO take a indefinite break from raiding until Velious hits. Really guys? Farming the same pixels for 3 years.........

[Frieza_Prexus]

Question for the casual: what do you find more appealing?

75/25 split where the "hands off period" includes ALL of VP

OR

A smaller split for the hardcores (above 50 below 75) that protects VP from casuals?

[YendorLootmonkey]

A lop sided situation in the past should not be solved with a lopsided solution. It breeds only resentment and contempt. This is a clean slate and we should treat it as such moving forward. Whatever solution is created should be fair on its own merits.

It should when it attempts to correct the server raid scene. Yes, I know, it's extremely convenient for the hardcores to ignore the fact they have nearly monopolized endgame content for over two years. Someone calculated that to be 400-1000 Trak teeth based on TMO's number of Trak kills. Not to mention all the time TMO got to enjoy and gear up in VP uncontested before FE/IB started to enter and compete.

You already have the advantage, you and I both know you have a LOT more ground to give here than this proposal and still be plenty competitive for Velious.

[Bossman]

I'll post what I roughly posted in Sirken's thread. This isn't the time for people to extract their pound of flesh for what they feel are past wrongs. This is the time for us to work together to hash out a deal or else none of us can play.

And this is where you are wrong. Us casual scum will be fine indefinitely, we have been surviving for a long time with 1 mob a week, what is none to us?

[Rusl]

one thing we can all agree on is stop killing OoA so we get nobles spawning during every guild's sky clears... 1 mob down 18 to go...

[YendorLootmonkey]

Why is everyone failing to understand that every guild in category B can engage any mob at any time...? Just because TMO, FE, IB are going for priority targets doesn't mean that any other guild can as well.

If that worked, we wouldn't be sitting here trying to hash out an agreement and reach consensus on it prior to Jan 2nd now, would we?

[goshozal]

How about FE and TMO take a indefinite break from raiding until Velious hits. Really guys? Farming the same pixels for 3 years.........

How about you take an indefinite break from anon trolling every thread with your tinfoil hat RMT accusations, and let the big boys work something out here?

[Autotune]

one thing we can all agree on is stop killing OoA so we get nobles spawning during every guild's sky clears... 1 mob down 18 to go...

Agreed.

[Derubael]

Just something to consider when talking about a points system...

What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?

How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?

Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?

Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.

[Frieza_Prexus]

50/50 is incredibly fair. 50% of the mobs for 90% of the server and 50% for the hardcore 10%. How is that not an equitable solution?

Because it does not respect the increased effort on the part of the more active. Being casual is a default designation, it is naturally larger because it is a default. Additionally, "90% of the server" is the wrong way to look at it. Many of those 90% are not of raiding level, have no desire to participate, and have not put forth any effort to achieve these goals. While the casual percentage that should be considered is certainly large, it is most certainly not "90%."

[Hitpoint]

Why is it completely unthinkable that a category B guild can compete on the other 3 weeks of the month with tmo and FE/IB? They can compete right now if they want. We haven't gotten an Inny in weeks.

[Lron]

Just something to consider when talking about a points system...

What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?

How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?

Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?

Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.

Having a raid council of trusted members in all guilds to decide if a guild is legitimate or not would solve this.

[Buriedpast]

Ella,

This is Motec.

I dont support your post in absolutely any form what so ever, and I have zero room to compromise on it. It is beyond missing the point and does absolutely NOTHING to address rogean's concerns about the raid scene and CSR incolvement.

Please read rogeans requests for a shared raid scene, with no CSR involvement and go back to the drawing board.

Sorry mate but all bets are off here, we should be friends but not one fuckin person seems to be taking Rogeans words seriously, and I wont take a clown like you fucking my leisure time with such a shit agreement. The 36 second DA stall bullshit takes the cake.

STALLING MOBS IS FUCKING RETARDED.

Do you have any comprehension of what Rogean wants? As it isnt one guild able to take ALL mobs on the server, and then a token scrap throw every month to the poor people.

Motec <Inglourious Basterds - but probably not for long>

[jaybone]

Just something to consider when talking about a points system...

What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?

How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?

Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?

Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.

I would find it extremeley sad if a guild made an alt guild so they could cheese their way into a rotation.

[Magicant]

I think we just make it so no guild/raid group can have more than say.. 25 people engage a mob.

The raid scene would work itself out.

Because the guilds are coded to specific number the devs can easily have the mob shout if/when 26+ players from same the guild engage a mob.

[-Catherin-]

Why is everyone failing to understand that every guild in category B can engage any mob at any time...? Just because TMO, FE, IB are going for priority targets doesn't mean that any other guild can as well. The only ones suffering any restrictions currently are TMO/FE/IB. And, really --- the promotion to Category A aspect really keeps BDA (since they're the heir apparent) from shitting all over the little guilds since they have the infrastructure to be the big bad wolf amongst those in Cat B.

Same thing is accomplished with a point system, and better. you still get your "competition" and the little guys still have a chance, whether you consider us a Rank A, B, or those you don't even consider worthy to have a rank to even be represented.

Seen enough. im against this in favor of a points system.

[Ella`Ella]

If that worked, we wouldn't be sitting here trying to hash out an agreement and reach consensus on it prior to Jan 2nd now, would we?

Yendor, you don't even try. Just because you don't, doesn;t me it's because you can't or because we're disabling you.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

You guys need to stop trying to split the raid scene in any % for the different "types" of guilds and come up with a system that applies to everyone equally.


If I was to camp orc 1 (and 2) on a lvl 60 toon for 4 years, what would the reaction be? Maybe lock down all the camps in west commons also, and keep all the crocs clear in Oasis. What would the social backlash be? Think a GM would step in? Why is player behavior looked at differently when we are 60? It shouldn't be.

Tier the raiding scene. If you're in VP you don't get Nagafen and Vox, as a loose example. I have yet to see anything proposed or put forth that isn't transparent as far as the motivation and greed.

I said it 3 years ago, give me reign over this and I'll resolve it one way or the other, and end this posturing and positioning to be the one(s) that gets everything. Are we going to make more rules to lawyer, or are we going to remember the INTENT behind the change. I see people coming up with a system for the sake of having the system in place so they can ensure they get the loots from raid mobs, and missing this incredible opportunity to change the server as a whole for the better. Without making it a welfare state, or the adolescents running amok with immaturity and greed with the cry of "it's classic".

If they became a significant raid presence, they would gain representation.

The reason other guilds never became a 'significant raid presence' is because of the behavior and monopolization of certain groups of people for years, combined with the unwillingness to behave like the 'raid presence' guilds and be a further detriment to the server. So they are penalized for not making the server a worse place? Some of us were at the very top on live, and have no desire to play in the mud with miscreants.

I say this because it comes down to this for a vast majority of us.

We don't trust you. And by you, I don't necessarily the OP, but there is a distinct difference between wanting a deal done so you can continue to get loots, or get a deal done because the server would be better for it. This is what I mean by transparency. I have seen and heard from only one person whose intent I trust on this, and I propose this. Have someone NOT involved, an arbitrator, a facilitator, and come up with an agreement. I do not like the idea of 'letting the fox guard the hen house', or letting 10 pct of the server speak for the other 90pct as well. I have nothing wrong with a motivated group of members getting the majority of kills because they are that motivated. But it is the way people go about it and go past a little extra for themselves to flat out greed, or something deliberately malicious and hurtful towards their fellow players.

"A bone shared with the dog is not charity. Charity is sharing the bone with the dog, when you are just as hungry as the dog."

Remove the variance and enforce play nice. You want to act like a miscreant, the toons ion your guild are stripped.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I think it's becoming clear that this proposal, no matter how much some may find it agreeable, is failing.

I think the failure is due to complexity, and I think a self-policing and simpler system stands a greater chance of acceptance.

[Tecmos Deception]

And this is where you are wrong. Us casual scum will be fine indefinitely, we have been surviving for a long time with 1 mob a week, what is none to us?

:)

[Yinikren]

Just something to consider when talking about a points system...

What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?

How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?

Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?

Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.

I've thought of this. Any guild that splinters and wants to raid should be (A) monitored to make sure it isn't just an alt guild to get more mob attempts and (B) should exist for a predetermined amount of time determined by the server. I'm thinking 3-6 months a guild should be established before they are allowed to claim points in my system.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Why is it completely unthinkable that a category B guild can compete on the other 3 weeks of the month with tmo and FE/IB? They can compete right now if they want. We haven't gotten an Inny in weeks.

I asked Taken what toll it was taking on their guild in order to go after Inny in this raid environment. Other "casual" guilds can read and envision their own guilds in this situation and help answer the question above...

If you try to engage Innoruuk on equal footing with the top dogs, (aka port up at the same time or even before them), they simply train up to Inny, then train Inny and everything else back down to the ZI to kill him there. (complete and utter BS tactic btw and should not be allowed)

It doesn't matter that they may wipe in the process, because the resulting train will wipe all other competition too. While said competition is trying to recover corpses, they continue to pull Inny with everything in his path down to ZI. Once again if they wipe it doesn't matter, because it wipes those now trying to recover their corpses. The train is the insurance policy so that if they screw up on the engage, nobody else can kill him either.

Spent close to 4 hours one Saturday morning just trying to recover our corpses at the ZI because said top dogs could not risk anyone else getting a shot and kept training Innoruuk to the ZI. The multiple wipes made it pretty obvious that they couldn't kill Inny this way with their current force, but they kept at it until we gave up on even our own corpse recovery. We can't win Game of Trains. We were not even a threat anymore. We just wanted to loot our bodies and leave. But they would not stop

That led to the current environment of how we get Inny. There is no way that we can compete otherwise. I personally do a lot of the tracking up there and a server environment that has made these kind of measures necessary is BS. Im glad things are hopefully changing.

[goshozal]

I would find it extremeley sad if a guild made an alt guild so they could cheese their way into a rotation.

I don't think it's unreasonable at this point to assume that everyone will do whatever is in their power to benefit themselves. Isn't that how we got here?

[benjay]

Classic Eq raiding was never designed to be fair, soooo this will never work, whatever compromise you assume you will have a loophole will be found, TMO could easily split into 3 guilds and take the same amount of targets they do now without infracting any rule that is mentioned in any of your ideas

[Autotune]

Having a raid council of trusted members in all guilds to decide if a guild is legitimate or not would solve this.

Hot damn Lron with the smack down.

Seriously though, there are many ways to determine the legitimacy of a guild. Nilbog and Rogean have both weighed in on guild sizes in the past and both realized that Guilds here are much larger than they should be for classic. This is due to variance and I think anything that causes guilds to trim the fat (really only hardcore guilds care about the rate at which members gear up) is a good thing.


Let the guilds legitimately split and punish any guild who tries to raid under alts by completely disbanding and banning their main and alt guild. Simple as that.

[CodyF86]

one thing we can all agree on is stop killing OoA so we get nobles spawning during every guild's sky clears... 1 mob down 18 to go...

Did Taken leave him up yesterday? Thought they said they were waiting for 2 hours as per that one agreement before killing him yesterday. I may be wrong tho.

We didn't touch him, don't get me wrong it's one hell of a fight for us, but with a good cheal chain doable. (We wiped last time with him at 50% because the cheal chain was off.) So I'm kind of confused now.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Yinikren]

I was not there, but I think we killed him because we had not yet come to a formal agreement on it.

[-Catherin-]

we waited over two and a half hours before we moved in to engage OoA. no other guild even showed up. im sure someone has a timestamp in their logs

[heals4reals]

How do I get my guild on the raid rotation if it's not one of the ones listed on OP?

[Buriedpast]

I think it's becoming clear that this proposal, no matter how much some may find it agreeable, is failing.

I think the failure is due to complexity, and I think a self-policing and simpler system stands a greater chance of acceptance.


Succint and with less swearing than I could manage.

Thanks Xasten.

Bag limit brother?

[Hitpoint]

I asked Taken what toll it was taking on their guild in order to go after Inny in this raid environment. Other "casual" guilds can read and envision their own guilds in this situation and help answer the question above...

Any now inny is a sure thing for them and we don't stand a chance. Pretty smart strat for them imo. They chose a messy mob to go after, we have the same problems with trains etc. If they camp at VS room instead do you not think they'd get a few of those with no trains at all? Sev pull spot? They can still get every inny with this agreement, plus an even easier one once a month.

[CodyF86]

we waited over two and a half hours before we moved in to engage OoA. no other guild even showed up. im sure someone has a timestamp in their logs

No other guild showed up because everyone wants to leave him up.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Buriedpast]

How do I get my guild on the raid rotation if it's not one of the ones listed on OP?


I suggest you do this, by being a guild for 30 days,

And by on a repop situation, you are able to kill 2-3 mobs in competition with all other guilds. If you can not mobilise to kill maestro then tal then fay for instance, while 5 other guilds go for vs trak etc etc etc, then you got no place in an agreement standing on own two feet.

If you can not, you should look at making an alliance so a lower guild is now competitive at higher level mobs.

[-Catherin-]

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.

[Lazie]

You have to tier the raid scene. I have to agree with the masses here this is not enough.

VP/Trak/Gore/Talendor/Maestro/Draco should be the only portions of the server that stays FFA. Maestro and Draco largely because of their sporadic spawns and Talendor/Gore due to their largely low need by everyone else. Trak/VP stays FFA so people have to earn their way to the top tier of the raid scene.

IF you raid in VP Naggy/Vox becomes off limits completely.

The other mobs...

Fay,Inny,Sev,VS,CT need to either be put on a bag limit by the larger guilds or an all out rotation by all guilds.

It will be the only system that you will get the majority to agree to. I have been saying it for a week now.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I would find it extremeley sad if a guild made an alt guild so they could cheese their way into a rotation.

There would be an investigation if the guild council votes on it, GMs could compare the IPs/accounts for both guilds, and if found a significant number of a guild's alts were in the guild, the both guilds would have their points allocation would be set to ZERO until the alts were removed. Granted, this would take a lot of CSR work so that's why the monthly quota is stripped from BOTH guilds as a "M.A.D."-style deterrent.

The only reason I can think of to have your alts in another guild is to a) spy, or b) because you hate the guild your main is in and need to take a break from your guildmates, which is sad... but go join a non-raiding guild for that then.

[Magicant]

Im serious, the real way to make this fun is to limit the # of people that can engage a mob. 50 people on Trak is boring.

What about "tier 1 guilds" get 25 people.. tier 2 get 27 Tier 3 get 30.

Just tossing it out there. The real issue with the raid scene is zerging shit till it dies. Lets go to a more fun, skill based system of raiding.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Im serious, the real way to make this fun is to limit the # of people that can engage a mob. 50 people on Trak is boring.

What about "tier 1 guilds" get 25 people.. tier 2 get 27 Tier 3 get 30.

Just tossing it out there. The real issue with the raid scene is zeroing shit till it dies. Lets go to a more fun, skill based system of raiding.

Impossible for established guilds. Strictures would cause implosions and create more guilds vying for the same content. Keep in mind that demand for content is generally based around the number of guilds killing a mob not the number of players in each guild.

[Bossman]

Im serious, the real way to make this fun is to limit the # of people that can engage a mob. 50 people on Trak is boring.

What about "tier 1 guilds" get 25 people.. tier 2 get 27 Tier 3 get 30.

Just tossing it out there. The real issue with the raid scene is zerging shit till it dies. Lets go to a more fun, skill based system of raiding.

Lol

[YendorLootmonkey]

Any now inny is a sure thing for them and we don't stand a chance. Pretty smart strat for them imo. They chose a messy mob to go after, we have the same problems with trains etc. If they camp at VS room instead do you not think they'd get a few of those with no trains at all? Sev pull spot? They can still get every inny with this agreement, plus an even easier one once a month.

Does her post really sound to you like this is something they (or any guild not TMO/FE/IB) wants to do long term? Catherin, as you are the primary tracker and you gave us a candid response... is it?

[benjay]

There would be an investigation if the guild council votes on it, GMs could compare the IPs/accounts for both guilds, and if found a significant number of a guild's alts were in the guild, the both guilds would have their points allocation would be set to ZERO until the alts were removed. Granted, this would take a lot of CSR work so that's why the monthly quota is stripped from BOTH guilds as a "M.A.D."-style deterrent.

The only reason I can think of to have your alts in another guild is to a) spy, or b) because you hate the guild your main is in and need to take a break from your guildmates, which is sad... but go join a non-raiding guild for that then.

That would in no way stop TMO splitting into 3 guilds and taking the majority of the loot in any way, as there is no way you could prove that they are linked, there guild bank is probably at a point where they could split it 3 ways and sell each other loot and thats a basic example, the best way to solve this issue is to release velious as there are not enough raid encounters currently for the population of the server to contest fairly

[-Catherin-]

No other guild showed up because everyone wants to leave him up.

Aaradin
The A-Team

it has been mentioned Aaradin. if that's how its really going to be then of course im sure Taken would comply. please don't hint at imaginary motives :)

[-Catherin-]

Does her post really sound to you like this is something they (or any guild not TMO/FE/IB) wants to do long term? Catherin, as you are the primary tracker and you gave us a candid response... is it?

Nope. I hate it. its absolutely no fun, and it is only done because it is necessary to get him at all. It also drives us into the ground having to keep up with it.

Getting the first inny kill with the two hour agreement and having to sit out the next one was a RELIEF to me

[JayN]

tbh there is no way to enforce anything with out gm intervention; they needs to stop taking a hands off approach. this has been aa good way to divert attention away from VELIOUS's delay; which would fix pretty much everything!

We need gms very hands on in this process as well as some staff always around during off hours for any of this to be serious.

for the sake of the fairness they desire

[Capi]

Just something to consider when talking about a points system...

What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?

How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?

Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?

Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.


I like to have some trust in humanity. But no big deal - guild that gets caught faces one hell of a penalty.

[Derubael]

There would be an investigation if the guild council votes on it, GMs could compare the IPs/accounts for both guilds, and if found a significant number of a guild's alts were in the guild, the both guilds would have their points allocation would be set to ZERO until the alts were removed. Granted, this would take a lot of CSR work so that's why the monthly quota is stripped from BOTH guilds as a "M.A.D."-style deterrent.

The only reason I can think of to have your alts in another guild is to a) spy, or b) because you hate the guild your main is in and need to take a break from your guildmates, which is sad... but go join a non-raiding guild for that then.

...do you realize how much work an investigation like this entails?

And what about guilds who are legitimately splitting? How do you tell if it's a real split or just a points ploy?

These are things that need to be thought about thoroughly and a solid plan for how you would proceed if a situation like this occurs needs to be in place.

[YendorLootmonkey]

there is no way you could prove that they are linked

Pretty sure the devs could, if they had a vested interest in keeping things peaceful after such an agreement was worked out.

[Pheer]

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.

So we're back to guilds holding the raid scene hostage instead of coming together and discussing compromises and alternate solutions once again? You all are talking about this glorious chance to change the server for the better and uniting as a community to end the evil hardcore guilds' tyranny, then immediately turning around and saying you want a point system and nothing else or you're taking your ball and going home since "you didnt really feel like playing anyway"

[CodyF86]

it has been mentioned Aaradin. if that's how its really going to be then of course im sure Taken would comply. please don't hint at imaginary motives :)

I wasn't hinting at anything.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Seltius]

I am not sure why there is so much of a fight. Also why are the casual or less "hardcore" raiding guilds expecting to be given the same amount of targets and expect an even split with the "hardcore" guilds willing to put in the extra effort? You say well we don't have the alts or the desire to track and compete but we want the targets all the same. You keep talking about how the server has been around so long. How many of the people in this thread arguing only have 1 level 52+ character?(excluding the trolls who may not even play anymore and are just here to get their rocks off)

This whole thread has gone from an attempt to offer a solution to a bunch of entitled bullshit.

People posting here instead of seeing it as a chance to compete more for targets without being steamrolled feel that because guild A or guild B have gotten targets that they now should go to playing casual so everyone else can leisurely kill mobs. If you don't like this idea come up with a better one. But leveling the playing field to where a guild that doesn't put forth the effort still is even with a guild that does or is willing to doesn't work and wont work. It wont happen unless the GMs dictate that is how it will be and I don't think that is really what they vision for this server.

Everyone's perception of classic is corrupted by a timeframe that is most definitely not classic. I am not sure the exact timeframe without spending more time than I really care to but by this point in live they should have been into PoP or beyond. I didn't start playing on live until a few months before Velious even then you didn't have 3+guilds keyed and wanting to raid VP at least not on the server I played on.


Also is there a way to lock these threads or set up a forum where only the elected representatives of the guilds can post. It would be cool to have them public so people could see what was being brainstormed so they could tell their leader or officers what their opinions were. As long as there is free reign things will never work out because you have too many people burying the message in these threads with opinions, hate, and general trolling.


Edit-Case in point there were 35posts in the 12mins it took me to post this. How many of them actually represented the guilds the posters are from. I saw Motec and stopped reading after his because it was the same people anon or not posting quoting different people. Oh and I didn't count yours Derubael because I don't think we could keep you out of any thread you want into!

[JayN]

So we're back to guilds holding the raid scene hostage instead of coming together and discussing compromises and alternate solutions once again? You all are talking about this glorious chance to change the server for the better and uniting as a community to end the evil hardcore guilds' tyranny, then immediately turning around and saying you want a point system and nothing else or you're taking your ball and going home since "you didnt really feel like playing anyway"

you get it pheer, the hypocrisy is deep. This "I want it to be fair unless its against me" bullshit is dumb

[DrKvothe]

...do you realize how much work an investigation like this entails?

And what about guilds who are legitimately splitting? How do you tell if it's a real split or just a points ploy?

These are things that need to be thought about thoroughly and a solid plan for how you would proceed if a situation like this occurs needs to be in place.

If you were willing to follow through with investigations and perma-ban violating accounts, the threat of this would keep it from happening more than once.

[Autotune]

tbh there is no way to enforce anything with out gm intervention; they needs to stop taking a hands off approach. this has been aa good way to divert attention away from VELIOUS's delay; which would fix pretty much everything!

We need gms very hands on in this process as well as some staff always around during off hours for any of this to be serious.

for the sake of the fairness they desire

Staff seem to be willing to enforce whatever the majority of the server want implemented, however they don't seem to be willing to adjust server mechanics atm.

I'm sure if a guild council is established and then the guild council deems a guild as breaking the rules in a majority that the staff would look into it as well and then hand down punishment that the players have agreed upon and accepted.

Every guild would have to be subject to penalties that they choose for themselves, I see no reason why the staff wouldn't hold them to their own agreed choices.

[Magicant]

Impossible for established guilds. Strictures would cause implosions and create more guilds vying for the same content. Keep in mind that demand for content is generally based around the number of guilds killing a mob not the number of players in each guild.

Thats the issue brother.

maintaining a guild of 100 raiders is not fun, not productive. I would really enjoy 3 more raiding guilds with 25 Solid players who are trying to achieve perfection and the best raid strats etc. When you get people really trying hard to maximum kills with low numbers you will bring the community together rather than just try to LOLZERG.

I know that there would be no stall tanking, FTE sniping, etc cause you cannot engage unless u are 100% ready.


To be honest, Id rather just rotate everything so I can have fun trying to be the "best" gamer i can be rather than throwing warm bodies at encounters. 95% of all raiders on this server are unhappy. I would guess we can make a lot more people have a lot more fun by limiting the zerg and pushing for a skill based system.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Let Lron declare Jihad. And have them run this agreement by a 'council' of p99 players who aren't really invested in the raid scene. Get some impartiality here, and some transparency.

And some answers.

That being said, this is an interesting social experiment going on.:)

[heals4reals]

How do I get my guild on the raid rotation if it's not one of the ones listed on OP?

[benjay]

Pretty sure the devs could, if they had a vested interest in keeping things peaceful after such an agreement was worked out.

If this was a perfect world where the players and devs put an equal effort into the game this would probably work, but unfortunately as been proven by actions, the devs are not as devoted to the game as the players are (this is in no way meant to be insulting to the devs, they do a fantastic job its just a unrealistic goal) and the players will always be one step ahead, thats how life works.

[Visual]

Gonna be a lot of smaller guilds sprouting up and they're going to want targets too.

[Autotune]

...do you realize how much work an investigation like this entails?

And what about guilds who are legitimately splitting? How do you tell if it's a real split or just a points ploy?

These are things that need to be thought about thoroughly and a solid plan for how you would proceed if a situation like this occurs needs to be in place.

Every guild has people that want to adhere to the rules. There isn't a guild on this server that doesn't have people like that in it and don't want to cover for the others in the guild who aren't like that.

Basically, there isn't a guild on this server that could pull that off without it getting out. TMO has already been made an example when it comes to this, 2 players nearly killed the entire guild with staff punishment. As long as the next rule breakers will be treated more severely than that (considering they'd be doing this as a guild) then I doubt you'll see the problem ever arise.

[Hitpoint]

This all happened because guilds were monopolizing content. They agree to straight up give away mobs, like all the time. And people are outraged at such an insult and want so much more. Can't even believe what I'm reading tonight.

I thought it was going too far to back off completely on those priority mobs for a week. No waiting period, no exceptions. Not to mention draco and Talendor are still huge targets for us. We still have to compete with TMO for anything that we kill while nobody else does. I'm going to have to look into this points system or whatever you guys are talking about. I don't know how it can be worse for us then this proposal.

[heals4reals]

Gonna be a lot of smaller guilds sprouting up and they're going to want targets too.

[Yinikren]

This all happened because guilds were monopolizing content. They agree to straight up give away mobs, like all the time. And people are outraged at such an insult and want so much more. Can't even believe what I'm reading tonight.

I thought it was going too far to back off completely on those priority mobs for a week. No waiting period, no exceptions. Not to mention draco and Talendor are still huge targets for us. We still have to compete with TMO for anything that we kill while nobody else does.

Stop, this isn't worth fighting for. There's not enough good material in this pile to even bother saving.

"Giving up a weeks worth of mobs was tough on us." Really? Just stop. Bump a proposal that doesn't favor the top end.. Again.

[YendorLootmonkey]

That being said, this is an interesting social experiment going on.:)

Haha... sometimes I wonder if nilbog or Rogean is going for a doctorate in Sociology and we're all part of the thesis paper.

[Autotune]

Gonna be a lot of smaller guilds sprouting up and they're going to want targets too.

I say let the smaller guilds sprout up and get destroyed. If you seriously think smaller guilds can operate with this huge variance, you're cluelessly mistaken.

Have fun hoping your 15man raid squad can log everyone on at 3am compared to the guild with a roster of 50+

[Visual]

This all happened because guilds were monopolizing content. They agree to straight up give away mobs, like all the time. And people are outraged at such an insult and want so much more. Can't even believe what I'm reading tonight.

I thought it was going too far to back off completely on those priority mobs for a week. No waiting period, no exceptions. Not to mention draco and Talendor are still huge targets for us. We still have to compete with TMO for anything that we kill while nobody else does. I'm going to have to look into this points system or whatever you guys are talking about. I don't know how it can be worse for us then this proposal.

You give an inch...

[Pheer]

I personally find it pretty hilarious that now the more casual guilds are attempting to pull the same exact shit that everyone was scared TMO would attempt (refusing to cooperate or compromise to keep other guilds raid suspended). Which the GMs also specifically said was something theyd be willing to not only disband TMO for but also ban their officers as well. But apparently its ok for casual guilds to refuse to compromise or communicate on this issue in any way beyond making demands since they feel they have nothing to lose.

[Autotune]

I personally find it pretty hilarious that now the more casual guilds are attempting to pull the same exact shit that everyone was scared TMO would attempt (refusing to cooperate or compromise to keep other guilds raid suspended). Which the GMs also specifically said was something theyd be willing to not only disband TMO for but also ban their officers as well. But apparently its ok for casual guilds to refuse to compromise or communicate on this issue in any way beyond making demands since they feel they have nothing to lose.

you're comparing a single guild to half of the server.

Just stop replying now.

[benjay]

There was a system that achieved some success on my server back in the day for a few weeks untill the top guild simply decided to not abide by it, there was a guild rankings based on kills in the previous month, with the rule of you are only allowed to kill something once a month unless a guild within 2 spots of you is planning to contest, it worked well for people back in the day maybe someone smarter than me can modify it to the box

[Hailto]

TMO/IB/FE giving smaller guilds a week each month uncontested to attempt high value mobs and people are still complaining. Im curious what you guys actually want, do you want us to help you kill the mobs as well/lead the raids etc?

[Hitpoint]

Stop, this isn't worth fighting for. There's not enough good material in this pile to even bother saving.

"Giving up a weeks worth of mobs was tough on us." Really? Just stop. Bump a proposal that doesn't favor the top end.. Again.

Anything that is proposed will always favor the top end. Wtf are you smoking. That's because the top end tries harder, invests more or whatever. It will always be that way. We're talking about being good sports and not monopolizing shit here. We're going to have to compete with TMO, nvest all that effort, and maybe still end up on the losing end. Why don't you propose something "fair"? Whatever guild you're in gets an equal amount of mobs as TMO?

[Yinikren]

I have no issues with compromise (see my unbiased post) but I think its absolutely hilarious that TMO and FE can "cut their losses" on 25% of the mobs they would normally take to divide amongst the rest of the server, then peddle their idea as the epitome of fairness.

[jaybone]

i've said it before and ill say it again. FE and TMO need to stop raiding until Velious is released.