Official PSA - ALL GUILDS - Judgement Day is Coming

[Sirken]

Hi everyone!

just a friendly neighborhood reminder from your Lead CSR GM, that i will be raid suspending all guilds from all raid targets if an agreement has not been reached by the end of TMOs raid suspension on January 2nd.

this should serve as enough incentive to motivate all the guilds into reaching a fair agreement in a timely manner.


<3
Sirken


http://cmsny.org/wp-content/uploads/lady-liberty-scales-of-justice-h-1000.jpg

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Best Post =D

edit: Also, they need a raid forum (and to set up a poll so only those who can post can vote) to really get this going. Lets it all be out in the open but only lets those who can actually decide such things speak and vote.

[Vandy]

server owned

[Ele]

Announcing P99's first unguilded pick up raid every target whirlwind tour! PST

[Fazlazen]

Hi everyone!

just a friendly neighborhood reminder from your Lead CSR GM, that i will be raid suspending all guilds from all raid targets if an agreement has not been reached by the end of TMOs raid suspension on January 2nd.

this should serve as enough incentive to motivate all the guilds into reaching a fair agreement in a timely manner.


<3
Sirken


http://cmsny.org/wp-content/uploads/lady-liberty-scales-of-justice-h-1000.jpg

Haha, TMO might as well not make a deal till velious with all the loot they already got =P

[Pheer]

need a pic of the terminator with a gm tag over his head, someone get on it

[lecompte]

Omg. The pick up raids are going to be so much fun.

[Amontillado]

GMs "We will not force an agreement."

GMs "We are forcing an agreement, or else."

Me /rofl

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44442495.jpg

[Kope]

Hi everyone!

just a friendly neighborhood reminder from your Lead CSR GM, that i will be raid suspending all guilds from all raid targets if an agreement has not been reached by the end of TMOs raid suspension on January 2nd.

this should serve as enough incentive to motivate all the guilds into reaching a fair agreement in a timely manner.


<3
Sirken


http://cmsny.org/wp-content/uploads/lady-liberty-scales-of-justice-h-1000.jpg

However much I appreciate the push for people to get a deal going, and not to punish only TMO, this seems like this will get people to rush into a decision just to be able to keep raiding.

Divinity has spoken with almost all of the major guilds, but some of them have said that some of their leaders are away for the holidays. To account for this we were planning on getting to discuss things as soon as everyone got back to start thinking of a serious plan everyone can live by for a long period of time.

I hope that the guilds can hold off for a bit longer to come up with a serious plan we all can agree upon instead of jumping the gun to be able to continue raiding.

[Lazie]

Well played. I figured this was coming.

[Sirken]

Announcing P99's first unguilded pick up raid every target whirlwind tour! PST

Announcing P99's first unguilded blanket raid suspension.

just to be clear no raid mobs will be killed by anyone if the agreement is not finalized by Jan 2, i will ban any and all players that try to circumvent this decision, regardless of what method is used or how hard they try to rule lawyer a loophole in the wording.


Haha, TMO might as well not make a deal till velious with all the loot they already got =P
thats probably the fastest way for TMO to be disbanded as a guild, and see their officers banned. but thanks for playing :)

[Sirken]

GMs "We will not force an agreement."

GMs "We are forcing an agreement, or else."

Me /rofl

we said we would not force a rotation

L2readingcomprehension

[Byrjun]

It would be nice to get a response from the devs about some of our solutions, in particularly on reducing/removing variance and simulated repops.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

However much I appreciate the push for people to get a deal going, and not to punish only TMO, this seems like this will get people to rush into a decision just to be able to keep raiding.

Divinity has spoken with almost all of the major guilds, but some of them have said that some of their leaders are away for the holidays. To account for this we were planning on getting to discuss things as soon as everyone got back to start thinking of a serious plan everyone can live by for a long period of time.

I hope that the guilds can hold off for a bit longer to come up with a serious plan we all can agree upon instead of jumping the gun to be able to continue raiding.

nah, stop lawyerin.

GM's should just eliminate raid mobs until the solution is reached, if people are away at grandma's house.

Don't try to put the ball back in the GM's court. Sirken's comin.

[August]

The best classic memory I have from my 'childhood' is a pickup Vox raid that happened at 3 AM. Only time I ever got the dragon pre-raid-guild and by far the most fun I had had in a game up to that point.

I also got a Blight, Hammer of the Scourge!

c'mon pickups!

[Lune]

http://i.imgur.com/Q0Z7eDa.jpg

[Kope]

nah, stop lawyerin.

GM's should just eliminate raid mobs until the solution is reached, if people are away at grandma's house.

Don't try to put the ball back in the GM's court. Sirken's comin.

I'm not trying to Lawyer at all, I'm trying to make sure we get the best possible decision for the server as a whole.

[Pringles]

Love it, keep up the good work!

[Sirken]

WHy the conflict of dates?

because either derubael forgot how to count to 14, or, because derubael was having a slight stroke when he sent that out, or because he forgot to run that by me before he sent it out with incorrect information.

either way, i'd mark January 2nd on your calendars, because thats the day i'll be enacting the blanket ban.

[Alarti0001]

Rogaen already said the GMs would not force an agreement. Yet Sirken and Derubael are trying t force an artificial and arbitrary date of forcing an agreement. THey don't even agree which day to force it on.

OMG someone TYPO'd CONSPIRACY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ele]

Announcing P99's first unguilded blanket raid suspension.

just to be clear no raid mobs will be killed by anyone if the agreement is not finalized by Jab 2, i will ban any and all players that try to circumvent this decision, regardless of what method is used or how hard they try to rule lawyer a loophole in the wording

<3

[Ele]

This might be the longest Zordak Ragefire has ever lived.

[Garguren]

Were gonna see shammies trying to solo raid mobs now... Think of the shammies!

[Pint]

yea, are zordak and royals included?

[Yinikren]

I would assume by "any loopholes and rules lawyering" That any mob intended for more than a group of people to kill is probably off limits.

[Lazie]

I think it is the fairest decision. TMO's suspension ends Thursday. It ensures no one gets excluded from participating in the decisions or no one has toys to play with. I don't think this is shocking to most people. They couldn't tell TMO their suspension would continue if they didn't cooperate and then not tell the rest of the guilds the same. It forces everyone to work together.

[Pheer]

the p99 raid mobs are going to be left idle so long that they become self aware and form skynet

[Kope]

I think it is the fairest decision. TMO's suspension ends Thursday. It ensures no one gets excluded from participating in the decisions or no one has toys to play with. I don't think this is shocking to most people. They couldn't tell TMO their suspension would continue if they didn't cooperate and then not tell the rest of the guilds the same. It forces everyone to work together.

I agree with this totally, I'm just concerned about the timeframe for a server wide ruleset.

[Amontillado]

So, no agreement at the moment...
If no agreement comes about now, isn't that the same as an agreement?


How many of us have heard this before?
GMs "We will not enforce player agreements"

[Funkutron5000]

the p99 raid mobs are going to be left idle so long that they become self aware and form skynet

But August 29, 1997 was so long ago. Stop screwing with the time line, people!

[Sirken]

"omg Sirken! How are we (the raid guilds) suppose to know what mobs are raid mobs?! Life is so hard to figure out!!!! please assist us!!"

all of VP, Trak, VS, CT, Draco, Inny, Gore, Fay, Tal, Sev, Naggy, Vox, Noble, OoA, Eye of Veeshan, Hand of Veeshan

edit - AND Ragefire, Maestro

[Castigate]

Big fan of the decision, everyone needs to start trying to improve the community itself rather than continuing with the blame and flame.

[Pint]

all of VP, Trak, VS, CT, Draco, Inny, Gore, Fay, Tal, Sev, Naggy, Vox, Noble, OoA, Eye of Veeshan, Hand of Veeshan

ty sir

[Alarti0001]

all of VP, Trak, VS, CT, Draco, Inny, Gore, Fay, Tal, Sev, Naggy, Vox, Noble, OoA, Eye of Veeshan, Hand of Veeshan

Maestro/RF ? VERINA TOMB?!!!!!

[Sirken]

So, no agreement at the moment...
If no agreement comes about now, isn't that the same as an agreement?


How many of us have heard this before?
GMs "We will not enforce player agreements"

you are an idiot. and if you post this again, im banning you.

the staff says we will not enforce rotations, but that WE WILL SUPPORT ANY PLAYER AGREED ARRANGEMENTS.

improve your reading comprehension and stop spreading misinformation.

[Happyfeet]

Amontillado is going to read that as please post it again, sirken you are trolling the illiterate!

[Sirken]

Maestro/RF ? VERINA TOMB?!!!!!

you are correct.

Maestro and RF as well, ill edit my post

[Itap]

Sirk, I think you are a cool dude (even though you probably banned my forum account)


No hard feelings

[Byrjun]

Well, my question directed at the devs has been ignored, so not sure how the players are expected to "play nice" when devs also aren't willing to cooperate. Not trying to be disrespectful, but it is a concern.

Also how is Ragefire a "raid mob" when it can be duoed?

[CodyF86]

Hey Sirken,

You might want to just have those raid mobs you listed not pop at all / kept down,
if no agreement is reached, or else a myriad of classes won't even be able to attempt
to get epic parts, without it looking like they are trying to engage a raid mob.

For example good luck clearing the temple or pulling the Wraith in fear, without
having draco aggro you in fear and it look like you are trying to engage him.

Prob better if they were just depoped completely.

And I say ^ completely neutral at this point, because the whole thing has worn me
out and I'd rather not see normal players punished who just want to finish their epics
that don't require a god / dragon kill.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Lazie]

Well, my question directed at the devs has been ignored, so not sure how the players are expected to "play nice" when devs also aren't willing to cooperate. Not trying to be disrespectful, but it is a concern.

Also how is Ragefire a "raid mob" when it can be duoed?

You won't be able to kill Ragefire with Naggy up anyway. So excluding Ragefire is a formality.

[Amontillado]

you are an idiot. and if you post this again, im banning you.


No need for name calling. Why you mad bro?

[Itap]

No need for name calling. Why you mad bro?

Trolling a GM, that's real smart

[Magicant]

Again, I am more than happy to host a talk with any/all Guild Leaders in our Vent. I would like the server staff to make an officers forum so we can discuss this and get it finished with. Also a response regarding them being willing or not to change the spawn mechanics would help.

I will be on Majyn for the next 72 hours basically.

Thanks.

[Pheer]

No need for name calling. Why you mad bro?

cmon man dont do this, suicide by gm isnt the way to go

[DrKvothe]

Sirken, how much game tweaking are the admin willing to do? What if the guild leaders think that the optimal solution will only be satisfactory with 25% or 50% more raid mobs to go around? Just curious, because altering variance and repop rates are pretty common suggestions throughout the threads here, and it's not clear whether you guys would actually do this. Guild leaders need to know these things during their discussions.

[Juevento]

Point of clarity; in what time zone is the Jan 2 raid ban effective? Is it 12 am EST?

Not that it particularly matters, but I didn't see that info anywhere.

[Retti_]

Count the <Royal Blue Elves> in.

[DrKvothe]

Point of clarity; in what time zone is the Jan 2 raid ban effective? Is it 12 am EST?

Not that it particularly matters, but I didn't see that info anywhere.

North Pole time.

[Byrjun]

Sirken, how much game tweaking are the admin willing to do? What if the guild leaders think that the optimal solution will only be satisfactory with 25% or 50% more raid mobs to go around? Just curious, because altering variance and repop rates are pretty common suggestions throughout the threads here, and it's not clear whether you guys would actually do this. Guild leaders need to know what tools are at their disposal especially if that includes modifying the actual game.

Yup. Devs haven't responded about the prospect of removed variance and simulated repops, yet expect players to come up with a solution amidst threats of bans/suspensions.

[Tasslehofp99]

Be patient peeps!

As has been mentioned the best agreement is probably the one that no one likes. If a guild "likes" a proposal it probably means that it suits them more so than others. Even if it comes to no raid mobs dying for a week; taking our time to insure the health of p99's future raiding scene should be the priority.

[Sirken]

Well, my question directed at the devs has been ignored, so not sure how the players are expected to "play nice" when devs also aren't willing to cooperate. Not trying to be disrespectful, but it is a concern.

Also how is Ragefire a "raid mob" when it can be duoed?

this involves the players and the CSR staff. it will not involve the Devs at this point. variance is fine, ive explained it many times, plz remove head from sand

Ragefire is included because the CSR staff did a quick vote with who was around and they decided to include it.

GG

[DrKvothe]

Why not pretend like they won't change any mechanics and just come up with an agreement based on what we have?

Established raiding guilds are more likely to slice the pie into more pieces if the pieces are bigger.

[Alarti0001]

Yes, lets increase all the dragon loot on the server by inflating mob totals!

INSTANCES !

[DrKvothe]

Yes, lets increase all the dragon loot on the server by inflating mob totals!

Sorry to spam, but I think this is a bit of a moot point with velious on the horizon. Also, not all spawn rates would necessarily be adjusted to the same degree (or at all).

[Sirken]

Sirken, how much game tweaking are the admin willing to do? What if the guild leaders think that the optimal solution will only be satisfactory with 25% or 50% more raid mobs to go around? Just curious, because altering variance and repop rates are pretty common suggestions throughout the threads here, and it's not clear whether you guys would actually do this. Guild leaders need to know these things during their discussions.
assume zero changes on game tweaking for now.

[DrKvothe]

assume zero changes on game tweaking for now.

Excellent to know, tyvm.

[Byrjun]

variance is fine, ive explained it many times

But... this is about players establishing a positive raid community for themselves. If the consensus is that this is the best for the server, then that would mean variance is the opposite of fine. I know Nilbog was interested in this as well as simulated repops a while ago and we're curious what ever came of that.

Variance promotes tracking several zones 24/7, having alts camped out all over the world with full raid buffs, etc. Pretty much exactly the kind of tactics that TMO employed that started all the frustration amongst guilds that wanted a chance at content. Variance isn't completely to blame but there's no way you can deny that it wasn't at least a catalyst for the raid scene becoming what it has. It was a really bad bandaid fix to the poopsock wars of DA vs. IB and I'd hope that we could come up with a better solution this much into the server's timeline.

plz remove head from sand

Not sure what this means.

[Retti_]

Can't wait to get some dragins

[Tasslehofp99]

I just want to reiterate that this agreement is more important than a lot of folks realize. If it comes to a blanket suspension to get a satisfactory agreement hammered out, I hope people realize that is probably best for p99.

[CodyF86]

assume zero changes on game tweaking for now.

Again this is just some devils advocate, but if variance isn't going to be changed,
and repops aren't going to happen, then what is there to agree on?

Everyone has more or less already agreed to not engage a previously killed target
for 2 hours, and everyone has stuck to that rule.

Aaradin
The A-team

[Retti_]

<Royal Blue Elves> have not been included in raid rotation talks. Please have the chairman of these discussions get in contact with me or risk failure to comply rulings.

[Tasslehofp99]

<Royal Blue Elves> have not been included in raid rotation talks. Please have the chairman of these discussions get in contact with me or risk failure to comply rulings.

I think any rotation will have stipulations for guilds being included. I think it's more likely that any agreement isn't going to include a rotation.

[Sirken]

Why not pretend like they won't change any mechanics and just come up with an agreement based on what we have?

thread winner^




PS- im done with this thread, said what i needed to say and feel i stuck around enough to answer any legitimate questions. i'll check back in a day or two.



remember this is NOT about helping guildA or hurting guildB or anything that retardedly short sighted. we are trying to build a better server, both to allow current players to have lots of fun, but also a server that will be welcoming to another 600-1000 players after velious launches, and allow them to have fun as well.

<3 all of you (even if u piss me off)
Sirks

[Retti_]

Well my guild is ready to raid therefore we shall be included in the deals.

[Byrjun]

Then make an agreement around variance for the time being. Majority rules

We can't agree on any rule changes because there haven't been any straight answers from the devs. Just, "we're not going to respond to anyone's concerns, but gonna start suspending everyone soon."

[Funkutron5000]

thread winner^

remember this is NOT about helping guildA or hurting guildB or anything that retardedly short sighted. we are trying to build a better server, both to allow current players to have lots of fun, but also a server that will be welcoming to another 600-1000 players after velious launches, and allow them to have fun as well.

<3 all of you (even if u piss me off)
Sirks

This right here. It's not about taking your pound of flesh from those you dislike. It's about us all working together and not being douchers to each other.

[Retti_]

We can't agree on any rule changes because there haven't been any straight answers from the devs. Just, "we're not going to respond to anyone's concerns, but gonna start suspending everyone soon."

Byrjun? U got a point or u just bashing Sirken?

Clean up your act.

[Retti_]

Gettum Sarius

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrf57f2idf1qkw3cpo1_500.gif

[Alarti0001]

Then make an agreement around variance for the time being. Majority rules

Majority of what. LOL

[JayN]

<14 man dragon challenge> would like all the same opportunities afforded to their larger then life uber guild opponents, k thx.


Seriously some guidance from server staff rather then just threats would be a huge help! None of these alpha shit birds are going to communicate with each other in good faith sirk!.


I blame eqmac closure for ALL OF THIS
diaf macs diaf

[Alarti0001]

<14 man dragon challenge> would like all the same opportunities afforded to their larger then life uber guild opponents, k thx.


Seriously some guidance from server staff rather then just threats would be a huge help! None of these alpha shit birds are going to communicate with each other in good faith sirk!.


I blame eqmac closure for ALL OF THIS
diaf macs diaf

Us aalpha shit birds are already having talks off this cesspool of a forum. We got a good deal hammering out!

[Laok]

nah, stop lawyerin.

GM's should just eliminate raid mobs until the solution is reached, if people are away at grandma's house.

Don't try to put the ball back in the GM's court. Sirken's comin.

No way... This is like sitting on a park bench with a .45 in your lap, a $100 bill next to you and a sign saying, "This isn't your $100 dollar bill, if you take it I'm going to shoot you in the face"

The fool who grabs that hundo deserves what is coming. You have been warned, and you know the consequences of your action, you still have the free will to follow the rules laid out or engage a raid mob and take the ban.

Why not a rotation on the epic raid mobs? That gives more people access to their epics. Also a provision for up and coming raid guilds to be placed into the rotation. Can't have a monopoly again, now can we?

[Byrjun]

Byrjun? U got a point or u just bashing Sirken?

Clean up your act.

What? I'm not bashing Sirken. I specifically mentioned that I mean no disrespect. My point should have been quite clear. A lot of players think that variance is a problem and that simulated repops (something Nilbog was looking into implementing) is a great solution to raid issues. However we can't just agree on these changes - it requires some cooperation from the devs.

Probably all I'll say on this in this topic though, since it seems this thread is about to go down the forum troll rabbit hole soon.

[Retti_]

Us aalpha shit birds are already having talks off this cesspool of a forum. We got a good deal hammering out!

Just because a couple of mongoloids are talking about secretly allying a share agreement doesn't mean you can exclude <Royal Blue Elves> from the raid scene.

Make public discussion and include all server guilds.

[Alarti0001]

Just because a couple of mongoloids are talking about secretly allying a share agreement doesn't mean you can exclude <Royal Blue Elves> from the raid scene.

Make public discussion and include all server guilds.

Royal blue elves is included in our agreement. You have been assigned to a Phinny rotation.

[Retti_]

I demand transparency. My people will not stand for this. If you fail to comply and include our regime we will be forced to report your atrocities to Lord Sirken.

[skorge]

<The FBI> would like to be apart of the raid rotation, we are a group of gnomes that are prepared to kill dragons....please put us in the cycle with TMO, FE and IB. We will show the server how real men kill stuff.

[doraf]

Royal blue elves is included in our agreement. You have been assigned to a Phinny rotation.

hahahahaha

[Retti_]

U think this is a game?

[Pan]

Us aalpha shit birds are already having talks off this cesspool of a forum. We got a good deal hammering out!

Not sure what koolaid you've been drinking, but it's not about the alpha shitbirds. It's about, first and foremost (from Sirk in this thread):

remember this is NOT about helping guildA or hurting guildB or anything that retardedly short sighted. we are trying to build a better server, both to allow current players to have lots of fun, but also a server that will be welcoming to another 600-1000 players after velious launches, and allow them to have fun as well.



Think server first, long term - shitbirds second if at all.

[Retti_]

Not sure what koolaid you've been drinking, but it's not about the alpha shitbirds. It's about, first and foremost (from Sirk in this thread):

remember this is NOT about helping guildA or hurting guildB or anything that retardedly short sighted. we are trying to build a better server, both to allow current players to have lots of fun, but also a server that will be welcoming to another 600-1000 players after velious launches, and allow them to have fun as well.



Think server first, long term - shitbirds second if at all.

http://olivethepeople.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/applause-gif.gif

[Alarti0001]

Not sure what koolaid you've been drinking, but it's not about the alpha shitbirds. It's about, first and foremost (from Sirk in this thread):

remember this is NOT about helping guildA or hurting guildB or anything that retardedly short sighted. we are trying to build a better server, both to allow current players to have lots of fun, but also a server that will be welcoming to another 600-1000 players after velious launches, and allow them to have fun as well.



Think server first, long term - shitbirds second if at all.

---------------------..........................I responding to a label...with the same label.....................ugh... hopeless

[DrKvothe]

Alarti, how about openly name the guilds directly participating in your negotiations.

[Reguiy]

Where is Swish? We need a good Terminator 2 gif stat!

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, how about openly name the guilds directly participating in your negotiations.

TMO, Tinfoil Hats, FE, IB, *S*E*C*R*E*T, S*E*C*R*E*T*2,
Royal Blue Elves

[Matthalas Winterheart]

I demand transparency. My people will not stand for this. If you fail to comply and include our regime we will be forced to report your atrocities to Lord Sirken.

How many of your 2200 posts were much alike this one? :eek:

[Splorf22]

this should serve as enough incentive to motivate all the guilds into reaching a fair agreement in a timely manner.

Please edit your post to define 'all guilds reaching a fair agreement' and you will help us out a lot.

Is 'all guilds' FE/IB/TMO? Those plus Taken/BDA/Divinity? Those plus A-team, Europa, and Azure Guard? Those plus Indignation, Dolji*, Knights, Supremacy? Those plus The Three Muskanerds?

How about 'agreement'? Is this unanimous? Majority? Plurality? Weighted by guild membership? Or do all guilds get one vote?

I know this seems like a giant invitation to rules lawyering but you will not get a unanimous agreement on anything here.

P.S. REPOPS!

[Frogie305]

Hi everyone!

just a friendly neighborhood reminder from your Lead CSR GM, that i will be raid suspending all guilds from all raid targets if an agreement has not been reached by the end of TMOs raid suspension on January 2nd.

this should serve as enough incentive to motivate all the guilds into reaching a fair agreement in a timely manner.


<3
Sirken


http://cmsny.org/wp-content/uploads/lady-liberty-scales-of-justice-h-1000.jpg

Nice to see its not just TMO banned, Is this Real Life?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Powtle]

Please edit your post to define 'all guilds reaching a fair agreement' and you will help us out a lot.

Is 'all guilds' FE/IB/TMO? Those plus Taken/BDA/Divinity? Those plus A-team, Europa, and Azure Guard? Those plus Indignation, Dolji*, Knights, Supremacy? Those plus The Three Muskanerds?

How about 'agreement'? Is this unanimous? Majority? Plurality? Weighted by guild membership? Or do all guilds get one vote?

I know this seems like a giant invitation to rules lawyering but you will not get a unanimous agreement on anything here.

+1

[Unidus]

Just delete everyones gear except for items that don't drop anymore. Start out as nakid level 60s and you guys can race to get gear and raid.

[Lune]

http://i.imgur.com/lnJsMrY.jpg

[Buriedpast]

Sirken.

Can you please raid suspend ALL guilds for coming to an agreement that includes any of the following:

An agreement that does not see an equal distribution of mobs available to all guilds.

An agreement that includes the input or time of ANY CSR member for ANY reason, EVER.

As a side note, from now on can you:
Account suspend all guilds involved in any petition (yes, both).

Suggest we use /random to settle disputes before mobs spawn, as any petition ever, will result in both guilds being suspended on the spot.

I'm sick of the bullshit.

Motec

[Detoxx]

And herein lies the problem. Just too many mouths to feed. WTB velious!

[benjay]

hmm while the suspension is in place, would it be viable to see if any feats of skill could be accomplished, it would be impressive to see a 6 man attempt on multiple raid targets or even trio attempts etc,

[goshozal]

You're gonna have to edit that sig, Detoxx. Is there a gif of her saying... "except in the first week of every month?"

[Thulack]

I for one like raiding but there is a reason there are so many different raiding guilds on this server. Everyone has a different idea of what they think raiding should be and thats how they end up in the guild they do. We are never going to come to a universal agreement on how raiding on p99 should be. I for one expect no raiding to happen come Jan. 2nd which sucks but i dont see how anyone expects EVERYONE to agree.

[Fazlazen]

Announcing P99's first unguilded blanket raid suspension.

just to be clear no raid mobs will be killed by anyone if the agreement is not finalized by Jan 2, i will ban any and all players that try to circumvent this decision, regardless of what method is used or how hard they try to rule lawyer a loophole in the wording.



thats probably the fastest way for TMO to be disbanded as a guild, and see their officers banned. but thanks for playing :)

Heh

[sanforce]

Haha, TMO might as well not make a deal till velious with all the loot they already got =P

lol Faz - at least you are thinking outside of the box!

[Autotune]

Heh

was worth a shot imo.

[DrathMaximus]

48 hours left. Tick tock Scrooges.

[Buriedpast]

No mobs.

Please just destroy all raid mobs for a while until people learn, or the pixel crazy fuck off to some other server.

[Nirgon]

Hi everyone!

just a friendly neighborhood reminder from your Lead CSR GM, that i will be raid suspending all guilds from all raid targets if an agreement has not been reached by the end of TMOs raid suspension on January 2nd.

this should serve as enough incentive to motivate all the guilds into reaching a fair agreement in a timely manner.


<3
Sirken


http://cmsny.org/wp-content/uploads/lady-liberty-scales-of-justice-h-1000.jpg

http://ragefaces.s3.amazonaws.com/5041e101ae7c704e28000007/success.png

[gummab]

I'm all for this,but as it's the holidays most of Europa are on breaks and can not even enter into these talks to make an agreement.

So how does this work into this?

[Bones]

http://i.imgur.com/lnJsMrY.jpg
haha brilliant! and exactly how I feel reading this thread.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Were gonna see shammies trying to solo raid mobs now... Think of the shammies!


I think certain single class armies should be excluded from the embargo. Let the shammies have a shot. I would definitely watch a stream of a shammie zerg siege.

Or better yet: cleric blitzkrieg. 10 hour long encounters. Come on clerics, go go go.

Or yes, the legendary army of warriors chain-bandaging each other. Just gotta get the bandage cycle tight, and should be gtg.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

cmon man dont do this, suicide by gm isnt the way to go

someone needs to stage an intervention

[gummab]

I think certain single class armies should be excluded from the embargo. Let the shammies have a shot. I would definitely watch a stream of a shammie zerg siege.

Or better yet: cleric blitzkrieg. 10 hour long encounters. Come on clerics, go go go.

Or yes, the legendary army of warriors chain-bandaging each other. Just gotta get the bandage cycle tight, and should be gtg.


I'm all for the shaman shuffle,where do i sign up?

[DrathMaximus]

Damn lucky the server pop. didn't permanently drop by 106, and given the benefit of a doubt at all, frankly. This week's forum posts explain in detail the reason I am and will remain, casual. I play this to escape the evils of humanity, not seep into the pit with them.

[Hailto]

I play this to escape the evils of humanity, not seep into the pit with them.

I think its time to take a break from the forums as well, you're taking everquest forums a bit too seriously if you think you're stepping into the pit with the evils of humanity when reading forum posts over dragon distribution. I'm glad you have seemingly never had any real strife in your life to contrast the forum posts with however.

[Oleris]

regarding the TMO/FE proposal. What would happen if an agreement couldn't be made by january 7th. Would all named mobs be a FFA since the first week of the month would be gone?

[Durka]

regarding the TMO/FE proposal. What would happen if an agreement couldn't be made by january 7th. Would all named mobs be a FFA since the first week of the month would be gone?

No, I am sure some sort of agreement will be made. Maybe things would start Feb 1 (if this is what guilds agree to). I doubt all guilds will just "give" opportunity like that to the existing enterprise that already prevails. Kinda dumb.

I am sure they wouldnt pass it up though...

[Fountree]

Thanks for the justice Sirk +GMs. Now let's get some sort of agreement here hammered out. I liked the official TMO/FE proposal but that's just me i guess :P

[baramur]

I wish people would realize the proposal thats agreed upon does not have to be unchangeable. It could be brought back up by the council to be amended, and im sure sirken would ban raiding until amended if a majority wanted to amend.

[Swish]

Just raid ban everyone... nobody is compromising, everyone searching for a way to get the most pixels.

Pixel lust on this server is ridiculous. See epic MQs, people in TMO that spend 8 hours a day "scouting", and EC fat cats playing buy low/sell high.

[heazels]

http://ccg-emporium.com/ebay%20advert/Zendikar/Rares/day-of-judgement.gif

[Alarti0001]

Need to ban all playing altogether. The incentive is on the casuals to hold out (since they dont raid shit anyways)

[Rhambuk]

Really

[arsenalpow]

There were talks last night for damn near 4 hours. Guilds present were BDA, FE, IB, TMO, Taken, and Divinity. We even had support from Azure Guard, A-Team, and we attempted to get a Europa rep. Even Sirken and Derubael popped in for a second.

I think a lot of progress was made last night considering how much animosity has been present between all of these guilds and Mazam doesn't seem like too much of an asshole so that's on the plus side for TMO.

[mattkwi]

Seems simple, if people can't agree ( and understandably all these guilds have different goals due to size and player composition ) then keep current 2 hour agreement in place (which guilds already agreed on) and move forward. FE and IB work together to increase resources, tracking, etc. There is no reason smaller guilds who want raid targets cannot take up this same model.

Sirken this makes the most sense to me.

[Ecguy]

2 hour thing is crap. No raiding and possibly no server until solution.

[Alarti0001]

There were talks last night for damn near 4 hours. Guilds present were BDA, FE, IB, TMO, Taken, and Divinity. We even had support from Azure Guard, A-Team, and we attempted to get a Europa rep. Even Sirken and Derubael popped in for a second.

I think a lot of progress was made last night considering how much animosity has been present between all of these guilds and Mazam doesn't seem like too much of an asshole so that's on the plus side for TMO.

Progress = Chest saying NO constantly while demanding equal distribution of raid mobs.
ROFL

[falkun]

"Prove it."

[arsenalpow]

Cool, more Alarti propaganda from Alarti who wasn't there.

[Alarti0001]

Cool, more Alarti propaganda from Alarti who wasn't there.

Vent has this record feature. Its amazing, this digital age we live in.

[falkun]

Again an accusation without evidence. Post it or quit trolling.

[heazels]

Progress = Chest saying NO constantly while demanding equal distribution of raid mobs.
ROFL

Chest doesn't even play eq. He's rarer than PD.

[arsenalpow]

Removing heazels from guild now

[triad]

has to be one of the worse things ive seen you do sirk you just made it 100X harder to make an agreement .... might as well just instance all the raids in the game or spawn them when low tier guilds ask politely "hey lets throw a threat out there before we even let them attempt a real agreement" ... oh and you know what they say about assuming.. your never going to get an agreement out of people who want to be handed every mob in the game .... competition is what makes it fun.. not greifing or handing mobs to people with an inflated sense of entitlement thanks to this

[Droog007]

Need to ban all playing altogether. The incentive is on the casuals to hold out (since they dont raid shit anyways)

ha.

HAH!

BAAAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!

(This is genuinely funny to me)

No shit Sherlock... You speak as if the P99 dragons without the TMO's and FE/IB will simply expire of old age...

You know, Alarti once told me (paraphrased) that the raiding guild that halts raiding [and by raiding he means stomping a mudhole in your casual ass for draco loot], will die. So I say: let the debate rage on!

[Alarti0001]

ha.

HAH!

BAAAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!

(This is genuinely funny to me)

No shit Sherlock...

You know, Alarti once told me (paraphrased) that the raiding guild that halts raiding [and by raiding he means stomping a mudhole in your casual ass for draco loot], will die. So I say: let the debate rage on!

That isnt what I meant :)

[arsenalpow]

I look forward to the next meeting on the 1st and I'm hoping a plan can be worked out.

No one should pay attention to Alarti's propaganda, because it's just that.

[Alarti0001]

I look forward to the next meeting on the 1st and I'm hoping a plan can be worked out.

No one should pay attention to Alarti's propaganda, because it's just that.

No one should pay attention to Chest's propaganda, because it's just that.

My truth can be verified by other's who attended that meeting. Yours can't =)

[Nirgon]

If the majority of the guilds agree? Disband the ones that don't.

[arsenalpow]

No one should pay attention to Chest's propaganda, because it's just that.

My truth can be verified by other's who attended that meeting. Yours can't =)

Ok then, I'll wait for you to trot Mazam out here so he can call me a liar.

[Alarti0001]

Ok then, I'll wait for you to trot Mazam out here so he can call me a liar.

Mazam doesn't participate on the forums.. I'll try Unbrella!

[Sirbanmelotz]

I think Sirken is pretty cool guy, eh bans bluebies and doesn't afraid of anything

[Splorf22]

Alarti is having a full on mental breakdown at this point I think.

[Shinko]

sad day when FE and TMO agree on something and bda are the one willing not to budge

[Alarti0001]

I think.

Here is where I knew you were trolling.



Also, just got Seahawks Playoff tickets. VICTORY!

[Autotune]

Alarti is having a full on mental breakdown at this point.

[falkun]

sad day when FE and TMO agree on something and bda are the one willing not to budge

Neither are Taken, Divinity, Europa, Azure Guard, nor IB. Why did you not mention those guilds?

[Autotune]

Neither are Taken, Divinity, Europa, Azure Guard, nor IB. Why did you not mention those guilds?

That doesn't fit his needs.

[Nirgon]

They don't have to agree, they can get guild disbanded like Sirken said.

[MaksimMazor]

http://i.imgur.com/pyEWqSh.jpg?1

[Nirgon]

This is true, right Sirken?

Eventually if a majority of guilds agree, and others drag their feet, they will be disbanded?

[BlackTriad]

They don't have to agree, they can get guild disbanded like Sirken said.

Two guilds agree on a proposal and five do not so the proposal goes forward and the five guilds get disbanded. Does this mean that some guilds get three votes? I am confused here. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

[Nirgon]

Perhaps you can get off your casual bums and post your own and sign it.

I just see a bunch of this

http://i.qkme.me/36kdwc.jpg

Even when mobs are guaranteed, a VAST improvement.

[BlackTriad]

Perhaps you can get off your casual bums and post your own and sign it.

I just see a bunch of this

http://i.qkme.me/36kdwc.jpg

Even when mobs are guaranteed, a VAST improvement.

I think you assume too much here. Are you going to answer my question or simply keep trolling?

[falkun]

This is true, right Sirken?

Eventually if a majority of guilds agree, and others drag their feet, they will be disbanded?
God I hope its true. Right now there's an agreement amongst 4-5 guilds, and there's a separate agreement amongst 2. Out of 9 guilds in the sky rotation, 5 is a majority, and we're nearly there with one agreement.

[Autotune]

posting your own... that's not going anywhere.

I told you guys how you needed to go about this. Get all your like minded guys together and hammer out a proposal and keep adding like minded guilds to it and keep hammering it. Sooner or later you'll have a solid proposal and the odds will be stacked against the remaining guilds.

They'll either play ball, be disbanded, or cry and run away.

[triad]

They don't have to agree, they can get guild disbanded like Sirken said.

so because some want to have handouts the ones who enjoy competition should disband because the ones who want handouts wont budge b/c they aren't willing to put the slightest effort into a real competitive agreement?

[Autotune]

God I hope its true. Right now there's an agreement amongst 4-5 guilds, and there's a separate agreement amongst 2. Out of 9 guilds in the sky rotation, 5 is a majority, and we're nearly there with one agreement.

Looks like some people listened or figured this out on their own.

[Nirgon]

Does this mean that some guilds get three votes?


No, even if you want me to yes say :).


I am confused here. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

You see that big block of consideration and blobs of text that FE/TMO made (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133107)? I assure you there was a meeting deciding that of people who absolutely hate each other. But they put in the EFFORT and drafted it.

Where have you other 5 guild worked together to draft something and all agreed to it?

[Alarti0001]

God I hope its true. Right now there's an agreement amongst 4-5 guilds, and there's a separate agreement amongst 2. Out of 9 guilds in the sky rotation, 5 is a majority, and we're nearly there with one agreement.

Why are you using the sky rotation as your basis for a guild list? I'm gonna make my own raid guild list. TMO/FE/IB/BDA/Taken. Out of those 5 guilds 3 of them agree on a proposal and 2 don't.

[Nirgon]

Remember when I didn't get on the "fuck TMO / blah blah blah I can't hear you fuck TMO" train? Remember when I said a calendar system CAN'T work with this group?

Go sign the agreement and be a part of the solution.

If you hate me, think I'm a douche bag... just know by not signing that you are proving me right. So go ahead, rustle me jimmies. Prove me wrong. You won't :).

[falkun]

LOL Alarti, no one's stated which list is more valid. That determination can only come from CSR. The difference is my list has precedent, what's your basis?

[DrKvothe]

Which 3? AFAIK, IB, BDA, and Taken have not signed? Why would any list not include guilds that can easily take down most if not all non-VP content?

[Alarti0001]

LOL Alarti, no one's stated which list is more valid. That determination can only come from CSR. The difference is my list has precedent, what's your basis?

Years of Raid kills. BDA kills sky.... TMO/FE/IB raided the rest. BDA didn't even attempt shit.

Years of precedent :)

However if you want to make a sky rotation..... oh wait.

[Seltius]

Ban guild raiding and make all raid targets open raids. Have guild officers or reps random on loot that drops winner gets to award to their guildmembers. That way the casual raiders get handed loot and the hardcore raiders can still raid..

This is Sarcasm and is no less than a lot of other posts here about how raids should be "fairly" split up. Oh and like a lot of the ideas being posted and commented on I have no authority to make such deals.


Oh and at the end of the day you will not see one suggestion or idea that doesn't benefit the poster without hurting someone else but some are more balanced for risk vs effort than others.

[radditsu]

P99:judgementday.jpg

[BlackTriad]

so because some want to have handouts the ones who enjoy competition should disband because the ones who want handouts wont budge b/c they aren't willing to put the slightest effort into a real competitive agreement?

The infantile argument that somehow the majority of the server isn't putting great effort into competing or that they somehow want some sort of welfare type handout doesn't wash. You certainly want people to believe that this is true but it is not. Once you realize that most of us, including those of us that log on mostly to just raid, do not believe it then perhaps we can talk about the circumstances that are the truth.

[falkun]

Years of Raid kills. BDA kills sky.... TMO/FE/IB raided the rest. BDA didn't even attempt shit.

Years of precedent :)

However if you want to make a sky rotation..... oh wait.

Flimsy at best.
No mention of why Taken is included in your list.
Incorrect fact(s) about BDA.

So, what's your precedent again?

[Autotune]

Why are you using the sky rotation as your basis for a guild list? I'm gonna make my own raid guild list. TMO/FE/IB/BDA/Taken. Out of those 5 guilds 3 of them agree on a proposal and 2 don't.

I'd say sky is a good indication of what guilds raid and want to raid more.

[arsenalpow]

For the sake of clarity there are two proposals on the table at the moment. FE/TMO's plan as put forth by FE and TMO. The other plan was proposed by Divinity which every other guild has got behind. Each plan has it's merits. The FE plan has more FFA competition and the Divinity plan has 50% FFA and 50% serpentine draft rotation. Each side tried to make some concessions to their respective plans in an attempt to bring the sides closer together. Four hours later at 1am EST we agreed to reconvene on the 1st.

This isn't about propaganda, this isn't about manifesto, it's about trying to create an environment in which all guilds that currently exist and any future guilds that could exist will can thrive in. I'm honestly tired of the public bickering and posturing. The casual side of this debate will try to make additional concessions and I hope the hardcore side does the same to their plan so we can get this hammered out.

[Nirgon]

Ban guild raiding and make all raid targets open raids.

Guess who is going to be at all the open raids? The most dedicated players / the players with the most time on their hands to play EQ.

It is no different than what is going on now, really. They just won't be able to organize as quickly.

Scenario 1:
Players sit around in EC waiting for mob to spawn.

People start shouting they are forming a raid. Whoever recruits faster goes up. People start picking favorites and forming tight circles that become exclusive.

Scenario 2:
Players sit around in EC waiting for mob to spawn.

Raid mob spawns, everyone has to ensure everyone has a ride to get there. Someone has to let their dog out and never comes back. Someone alt tabs and takes forever. Someone goes LD. Everyone waits. Players decide those people have taken too long. Mob is slain. Players come back 30 minutes later and petition that the entire group of players online who asked to be a part of the raid were skipped out on because of greed / they knew I needed the item too so they cut me out etc.

[Splorf22]

I honestly do not believe additional concessions are required based on the Divinity plan. TMO/FE etc just don't understand how good it is for them.

1. 14 days of rotation, rest of the month FFA. Result: 168 days of rotation out of 365. So they get 54% of the mobs right there.

2. Then (assuming a 10 guild rotation) they get 20% of the rotated mobs. Guilds like AG, Europa, and the A-Team would probably give up 30-40% of our mobs because we aren't 24 hour capable. So thats another 10% that would become FFA. No one other than FE and TMO can kill Hoshkar and Nexona, so they get another few percent. And finally, the rotation only specifies 2 rounds - sometimes three mobs will spawn. It's real hard for me to see how FE/TMO as a unit don't get 35% of the mobs during the two weeks of rotation.

So, 46% * 1/3 + 54% means TMO, FE, and IB together will get 70% of all targets. That's really not bad at all.

[falkun]

Its also simple, easily expandable into Velious, requires zero GM involvement, and hardcores keep their "competition" 50% of the time.

[Autotune]

I honestly do not believe additional concessions are required based on the Divinity plan. TMO/FE etc just don't understand how good it is for them.

1. 14 days of rotation, rest of the month FFA. Result: 168 days of rotation out of 365. So they get 54% of the mobs right there.

2. Then (assuming a 10 guild rotation) they get 20% of the rotated mobs. Guilds like AG, Europa, and the A-Team would probably give up 30-40% of our mobs because we aren't 24 hour capable. So thats another 10% that would become FFA. No one other than FE and TMO can kill Hoshkar and Nexona, so they get another few percent. And finally, the rotation only specifies 2 rounds - sometimes three mobs will spawn. It's real hard for me to see how FE/TMO as a unit don't get 35% of the mobs during the two weeks of rotation.

So, 46% * 1/3 + 54% means TMO, FE, and IB together will get 70% of all targets. That's really not bad at all.

that would work great, except for amazingly large variance. Unless the rotation just picks up where it leaves off after the 14 days, but then that means there is going to be a huge wait for rotations.

[Seltius]

Guess who is going to be at all the open raids? The most dedicated players / the players with the most time on their hands to play EQ.

It is no different than what is going on now, really. They just won't be able to organize as quickly.

Scenario 1:
Players sit around in EC waiting for mob to spawn.

People start shouting they are forming a raid. Whoever recruits faster goes up. People start picking favorites and forming tight circles that become exclusive.

Scenario 2:
Players sit around in EC waiting for mob to spawn.

Raid mob spawns, everyone has to ensure everyone has a ride to get there. Someone has to let their dog out and never comes back. Someone alt tabs and takes forever. Someone goes LD. Everyone waits. Players decide those people have taken too long. Mob is slain. Players come back 30 minutes later and petition that the entire group of players online who asked to be a part of the raid were skipped out on because of greed / they knew I needed the item too so they cut me out etc.

Hence the sarcasm and irony in what I posted.

I really think the guild leaders and officers or select reps should be talking about these in private then taking the ideas back to their guilds on private forums so the ideas aren't buried in the tripe that is being thrown around in these threads. You have a few people here posting over and over again that don't agree and will never agree to the ideas being posted and they may or may not even be in a guild that raids and more than likely have no say in the decision anyway. I have said it several times to get a working solution the discussions need to be all in private with the guilds hearing about the ideas from their leaders. It is their leaders and officers responsibilities to make the decisions if you trust them to lead you then trust them to look out for your and your guild mates best interests. These threads attract trolls(myself unfortunately included atm) like shit attracts flies.

[Mezzmur]

I honestly do not believe additional concessions are required based on the Divinity plan. TMO/FE etc just don't understand how good it is for them.

1. 14 days of rotation, rest of the month FFA. Result: 168 days of rotation out of 365. So they get 54% of the mobs right there.

2. Then (assuming a 10 guild rotation) they get 20% of the rotated mobs. Guilds like AG, Europa, and the A-Team would probably give up 30-40% of our mobs because we aren't 24 hour capable. So thats another 10% that would become FFA. No one other than FE and TMO can kill Hoshkar and Nexona, so they get another few percent. And finally, the rotation only specifies 2 rounds - sometimes three mobs will spawn. It's real hard for me to see how FE/TMO as a unit don't get 35% of the mobs during the two weeks of rotation.

So, 46% * 1/3 + 54% means TMO, FE, and IB together will get 70% of all targets. That's really not bad at all.

Why not just accept the Proposed Plan by TMO/FE/IB, let the plan shift to the 10 days that was suggested and if Category B guilds want to rotate among themselves, so be it.

[falkun]

Why not just accept the Proposed Plan by TMO/FE/IB, let the plan shift to the 10 days that was suggested and if Category B guilds want to rotate among themselves, so be it.

Why should we capitulate? We lose very little by the extended raid suspension, you are suggesting the agreements are actually pretty close, and you are in the minority.

[Nirgon]

Loraen there's a lot of guilds and players, and not that many mobs.

If Velious comes out and FE/IB compete over NToV/ST key mobs/Dain and leave Kunark/Classic/PoG/Kael arena/temple alone... do you think THAT would be a better server?

I do.

[webrunner5]

that would work great, except for amazingly large variance. Unless the rotation just picks up where it leaves off after the 14 days, but then that means there is going to be a huge wait for rotations.

This has to be based on sort of FTE. You can't expect TMO to get the same stuff the Buttholesurfers Guild gets. Hell why even play? They where top dog for a reason. You want them and FE to just wait 3 weeks for a who gives a shit Raid Mob to pop??

I got bad news for you all. This is NEVER going to work long term. :mad: Hell lets all go look for Butterflies and Unicorns.

[baalzy]

I'm going to make my own raid rules. With blackjack, and hookers.


Infact, forget the raid rules!

PS. Anyone feel like this is just a practice run on a smaller scale for the next round of Congressional Fiscal Cliff Dodging? (Super teeny tiny group of rich white men saying the poor brown masses can't have anything because socialism is bad, except this time the brown people are the ones with the incentive to shut it down).

[arsenalpow]

Deajay let's keep the rhetoric to a minimum. No one wants to hold out and stall raiding just to prove a point, the end goal is to come up with an equitable plan for all parties involved. That's it. It's not about making up for past transgressions or the casual guilds getting our "pound of flesh" as was said last night. We all want to raid, we each have our preferred method of doing so, we just need to figure out the details.

[Autotune]

Take every proposal with the word "rotation" in it and just completely scrap it then.

[Mezzmur]

Why should we capitulate? We lose very little by the extended raid suspension, you are suggesting the agreements are actually pretty close, and you are in the minority.

Hive Guild with DKP Loot Distribution is still the best option. You get rewarded for your participation and contribution, just like every other video game out there.

[Lisset]

You want them and FE to just wait 3 weeks for a who gives a shit Raid Mob to pop??

Who gives a shit raid mob? Apparently TMO gave a shit because of all the effort they spent keeping everyone else from them and turning this server into a thugocracy.

I'm sorry, but asking TMO to help fix this is like having the Nazis on the war crimes tribunal.

[DrKvothe]

I'm sorry, but asking TMO to help fix this is like having the Nazis on the war crimes tribunal.

I lol'd

[Autotune]

Who gives a shit raid mob? Apparently TMO gave a shit because of all the effort they spent keeping everyone else from them and turning this server into a thugocracy.

I'm sorry, but asking TMO to help fix this is like having the Nazis on the war crimes tribunal.

HEY, NAZIS ARE PEOPLE TOO!

[falkun]

Fair enough, Chest. But I have never been out for flesh, even my own idea was a 50% split of hardcore and casual, see my post (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1241611#post1241611) from 4 days ago, before the "everyone gets raid suspended" threat started looming over our collective heads.

[nambar]

TMO should all go to Argentina (that one server the stoner from that one guild made).

[JayN]

I believe the nazis killed people, not sure tmo ever killed anyone; just owned whiny bitches, like you

[webrunner5]

that would work great, except for amazingly large variance. Unless the rotation just picks up where it leaves off after the 14 days, but then that means there is going to be a huge wait for rotations.

This has to be based on sort of FTE. You can't expect TMO to get the same stuff the Buttholesurfers Guild gets. Hell why even play? They where top dog for a reason. You want them and FE to just wait 3 weeks for a who gives a shit Raid Mob to pop??

I got bad news for you all. This is NEVER going to work long term. :mad:

[Alarti0001]

Why should we capitulate? We lose very little by the extended raid suspension, you are suggesting the agreements are actually pretty close, and you are in the minority.

Prove we are in the minority. We have something like 300-400 people signed off.

[arsenalpow]

Fair enough, Chest. But I have never been out for flesh, even my own idea was a 50% split of hardcore and casual, see my post (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1241611#post1241611).

Ya the pound of flesh thing was said last night by Mazam or Unbrella, I can't remember. At this time no other plans are being considered aside from the two that were discussed last night. Everyone posting plans should get with their guild reps and use the proper channels to bring something new to the table.

[Splorf22]

Why not just accept the Proposed Plan by TMO/FE/IB, let the plan shift to the 10 days that was suggested and if Category B guilds want to rotate among themselves, so be it.

One of the things you guys need to stop doing is assuming that we are stupid. Your plan got a lot of backlash because most people did not see it as a good faith effort, but rather an attempt to pull the wool over our eyes. There are huge differences between Divinity's plan and your plan, even if the 7 days becomes 10.

Loraen there's a lot of guilds and players, and not that many mobs.

If Velious comes out and FE/IB compete over NToV/ST key mobs/Dain and leave Kunark/Classic/PoG/Kael arena/temple alone... do you think THAT would be a better server?

I do.

IMO one of the best parts of Divinity's plan is that all guilds get to see all the content eventually without having to step into the fetid swamp of variance raiding.

Deajay let's keep the rhetoric to a minimum. No one wants to hold out and stall raiding just to prove a point, the end goal is to come up with an equitable plan for all parties involved. That's it. It's not about making up for past transgressions or the casual guilds getting our "pound of flesh" as was said last night. We all want to raid, we each have our preferred method of doing so, we just need to figure out the details.

Agreed 100%.

That being said, in any negotiation its important to consider your BATNA (best alternative to an agreement). I don't think the raid guilds have fully realized just how bad theirs is. The real question is not how long the non-raid guild would hold out (forever) but how Sirken would assign votes to various guilds. One vote per guild (or per player) and the casual guilds just cathartically vote in a full rotation, and your share of the mobs drops from 70% to 30%. He might not do that, because he does love competition, but do you really want to take that chance?

[Lisset]

This has to be based on sort of FTE. You can't expect TMO to get the same stuff the Buttholesurfers Guild gets. Hell why even play? They where top dog for a reason. You want them and FE to just wait 3 weeks for a who gives a shit Raid Mob to pop??

I got bad news for you all. This is NEVER going to work long term. :mad:

We read it the first time, rerun. Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it right, it just makes it redundant.

[triad]

The infantile argument that somehow the majority of the server isn't putting great effort into competing or that they somehow want some sort of welfare type handout doesn't wash. You certainly want people to believe that this is true but it is not. Once you realize that most of us, including those of us that log on mostly to just raid, do not believe it then perhaps we can talk about the circumstances that are the truth.

but its true, some guilds want a complete rotation taking all competition of a real world spawn mob. you might as well be doing wow instances

[Elmarnieh]

Eventually this will devolve into several guilds in order to get a chance at being on rotation will accept people into their guild for that fight or the time they have mobs.

The people in any guild that want a shot at the loot will deguild their own and join the rotating guild procession of the week who owns rights to that mob. This will become so commonplace that existing guilds will have to comply and the point of a guild becomes "The people who really like the tag and the people who need any given mob".

Guilds that don't follow this model will slowly fall out of raiding ability.

[arsenalpow]

Prove we are in the minority. We have something like 300-400 people signed off.

Alarti you're easily in the minority. Only TMO and FE are currently supporting the FE plan, the other 5+ guilds are supporting the Divinity plan. We both know that BDA and Taken have rather large rosters comparable or greater than TMO/FE rosters. Add in Divinity, Europa, A-Team, and Azure Guard and it's quite clear that the Divinity proposal has more guilds and people backing it.

[Autotune]

Prove we are in the minority. We have something like 300-400 people signed off.

there are about 1100-1500 people logging on P99.

[DrKvothe]

Prove we are in the minority. We have something like 300-400 people signed off.

How many of those people are people? Would those 2 banned guys have gotten to vote on all 688 of their characters?

[Mezzmur]

One of the things you guys need to stop doing is assuming that we are stupid. Your plan got a lot of backlash because most people did not see it as a good faith effort, but rather an attempt to pull the wool over our eyes. There are huge differences between Divinity's plan and your plan, even if the 7 days becomes 10.



IMO one of the best parts of Divinity's plan is that all guilds get to see all the content eventually without having to step into the fetid swamp of variance raiding.



Agreed 100%.

That being said, in any negotiation its important to consider your BATNA (best alternative to an agreement). I don't think the raid guilds have fully realized just how bad theirs is. The real question is not how long the non-raid guild would hold out (forever) but how Sirken would assign votes to various guilds. One vote per guild (or per player) and the casual guilds just cathartically vote in a full rotation, and your share of the mobs drops from 70% to 30%. He might not do that, because he does love competition, but do you really want to take that chance?

I don't think there's any wool. I think that people play EQ because it was an MMO that actually required work and was a challenge, It's NOT an instant gratification video game like WoW or any MMO after EQ.

When you play call of duty, you login and level up to attain power ups, skills and weapons and over time you progress. You get out of the video game what you put into it. Some that are willing to put more in, get more out. Simple. You're asking to put less in and get more out, so it seems reasonable that this wouldn't be a perfect Utopian 50/50 split. 10 days of 30 days seems pretty reasonable and there are mobs Tier 1 guilds don't touch in those other 20 days too.

Taken stepped up and started spanking Inny because they decided to put more into the game, someone could have easily done the same for any other mob out there especially as you say you have the numbers. It seems to be we should be looking at distribution by participation, activity, contribution not by mouths to feed. just imho.

[quido]

Nonhardcores wanting to go from 0% rotation to 50% rotation is absurd. It's like people on welfare all of a sudden having a say in how much money they get and not being happy when offered $2500 a month - FUCK THAT I WANT $5000

[Thulack]

Prove we are in the minority. We have something like 300-400 people signed off.

How many of those people are people? Would those 2 banned guys have gotten to vote on all 688 of their characters?

Going with TMO logic 300-400 "people" is about 8 people.

[Splorf22]

Nonhardcores wanting to go from 0% rotation to 50% rotation is absurd.

It's absurd to you, but will it be absurd to Sirken?

[Mezzmur]

It's absurd to you, but will it be absurd to Sirken?

I'm pretty sure they found it comical last night when streaming. I tried to state it a more PC way, but I think the underlying principle and thought is the same.

[Ravager]

Nonhardcores wanting to go from 0% rotation to 50% rotation is absurd. It's like people on welfare all of a sudden having a say in how much money they get and not being happy when offered $2500 a month - FUCK THAT I WANT $5000

Equating this to welfare is absurd.

[quido]

Not that I'm not happy to give some out, but that's exactly what it is.

FUCK THAT - I WANT $5000

[Alarti0001]

Going with TMO logic 300-400 "people" is about 8 people.

FE/IB/TMO have a roster of 100 a piece including inactives etc. Easy

[citizen1080]

With Velious on the horizon, any proposal that does not factor in that content is unacceptable. Otherwise we are going to be right back where we are now X months from now.

[quido]

Our inactive members get votes too you know. Damn it.

[Autotune]

FE/IB/TMO have a roster of 100 a piece including inactives etc. Easy

I love how all the non-IB people keep talking about how IB is behind something.

[quido]

Velious should be FFA and then settle into something congruent to what we settle into for the remainder of Kunark.

[Mac Dretti]

Designated hitters from each guild have to play a league of legends bracket tournament to decide mob rotation per week. Winner gets first pick 2nd gets 2nd etc until all mobs are accounted for.

Wins losses on a point system for future seeding.

[Splorf22]

I'm pretty sure they found it comical last night when streaming. I tried to state it a more PC way, but I think the underlying principle and thought is the same.

So, here is my question. Let's say Divinity's proposal is 50% rotation, 50% FFA (gives you guys 70% of the mobs as I stated before) and has the support of all the casual guilds. TMO/FE/IB have their proposal as well. January 2nd comes and goes. What do you think Sirken and Rogean are going to do?

[Alarti0001]

With Velious on the horizon, any proposal that does not factor in that content is unacceptable. Otherwise we are going to be right back where we are now X months from now.

Velious has been on the horizon for 2 years.

[Nlaar]

Not that I'm not happy to give some out, but that's exactly what it is.

FUCK THAT - I WANT $5000

Based on Loraen's calculations of the Divinity proposal result:
$100 paycheck
$70 to 3 guilds
$30 to 5+ guilds

$70 / 3 = $23.3 per guild
$30 / 5 = $6 per guild

[Ravager]

Not that I'm not happy to give some out, but that's exactly what it is.

FUCK THAT - I WANT $5000

Welfare doesn't run on donations and donated time. This is closer to the penny tray, non-profit organizations and the food shelf. Except a minority of the people want all of the pennies, homes and pumpkin pie filling and the majority think a fairer distribution is in order.

[Rararboker]

Welfare doesn't run on donations and donated time. This is closer to the penny tray, non-profit organizations and the food shelf. Except a minority of the people want all of the pennies, homes and pumpkin pie filling and the majority think a fairer distribution is in order.

Oh shit, someone is dropping logic!

[Eloian]

Perhaps it's time for Rogean to let us know when Velious is actually coming. Within 2-4 months? 6? Just a nice Ballpark would likely help.

Eloian Bushlover (I gotta go see Mommy Tunare!)
57 Ranger <BDA>

[Mezzmur]

With Velious on the horizon, any proposal that does not factor in that content is unacceptable. Otherwise we are going to be right back where we are now X months from now.

IMO, we should see how Velious plays out, its going to change so much that it's worth being pulled back to the table. We're talking months not weeks in the future. There will be so many more raids to factor in and we don't even know how the mobs cycles will be implemented yet.

[Sinestria]

Based on Loraen's calculations of the Divinity proposal result:
$100 paycheck
$70 to 3 guilds
$30 to 5+ guilds

$70 / 3 = $23.3 per guild
$30 / 5 = $6 per guild

But you can still try to pry $50 of the $70 and add to your $6!

[Splorf22]

Based on Loraen's calculations of the Divinity proposal result:
$100 paycheck
$70 to 3 guilds
$30 to 5+ guilds

$70 / 3 = $23.3 per guild
$30 / 5 = $6 per guild

A guild like The A-Team would be able to pick 5 times or so in the rotation. We would lose 1/3 of our mobs to late-night pops. So The A-Team will get 3 mobs a month. BDA will get 5. TMO will get 35. Clearly ridiculous.

[quido]

Except these same people never had an interest in pennies/pie/homes before, never worked towards getting these things in the least under the previous understanding, and now they read some Karl Marx and think they automatically get a large cut.

[DrKvothe]

Nonhardcores wanting to go from 0% rotation to 50% rotation is absurd. It's like people on welfare all of a sudden having a say in how much money they get and not being happy when offered $2500 a month - FUCK THAT I WANT $5000

Rogean:

We are all for competition, but it needs to be fair competition. We are also all here for the same thing, to experience classic Everquest. The same guild monopolizing raid content for 2 years that they might not even need anymore is ridiculous, just to block other guilds from the chance of gearing up to take on the same end game content.

I was thinking to myself the other day and I came to ask myself.. Are we providing this server to give people the arena to compete to such bitter extremes that it has resorted to taking every absolute measure to be victorious, or are we here to provide a classic Everquest experience for everyone to enjoy?...

To be clear, we want an enjoyable raid scene for everyone, not just one or two guilds. This means working together to figure out a compromise when racing for mobs, and working with smaller guilds to let them have a chance at mobs you don't absolutely need for gearing main characters.

What were you saying?

[Erati]

i love the how the Divinity plan tells the guilds when the mob is going to spawn and helps them get free loot

OH WAIT we still have to actively track/prep for the mob because of variance which isn't going away AND kill it within the agreed upon engage time or else it becomes FFA for everyone

damn reading all these comments I figured you were just handed GM summoned loot

[radditsu]

All welfare 100% gets pumped back into the economy!

Horray capitalism!

[Splorf22]

Except these same people never had an interest in pennies/pie/homes before, never worked towards getting these things in the least under the previous understanding, and now they read some Karl Marx and think they automatically get a large cut.

Rogean gave you the non-classic variance which enabled you to do that, and now Rogean is somewhat regretting the decision. The Rogean giveth and the Rogean taketh away.

Again, if the casual guilds put forth a proposal where TMO IBFE get 35% each of the mobs every month (that's 7 times as much as BDA and 11 times as much as The A-Team), and you turn it down, what do you think Rogean is going to do?

[Mezzmur]

So, here is my question. Let's say Divinity's proposal is 50% rotation, 50% FFA (gives you guys 70% of the mobs as I stated before) and has the support of all the casual guilds. TMO/FE/IB have their proposal as well. January 2nd comes and goes. What do you think Sirken and Rogean are going to do?

I think they'll wait.

And you're supposition is that only TMO/FE/IB will compete in the FFA rounds. You're assumption is that nobody will be competing. We've seen Taken (just using as an example) pillage Ragefire for months followed by Inny for a month+; BDA has controlled 7 Voxes in a row under the current system. So clearly it's not going to be TMO/IB/FE in the other 50% of the month. Math requires concretes and there's nothing concrete.

[Nlaar]

But you can still try to pry $50 of the $70 and add to your $6!

Yup I would agree that that is a possibility.
Is it likely? History would indicate not really.

Prior to the TMO suspension, how often did you see the likes of the 5 casual guilds racing for raid targets while in direct competition with TMO/FE/IB ? Not very often. (Due to crappy raiding scene - see Rogean's post). I think your $70 is fairly safe.

[Mezzmur]

Rogean:


What were you saying?

You're completely ignoring this part:

This means working together to figure out a compromise when racing for mobs, and working with smaller guilds to let them have a chance at mobs you don't absolutely need for gearing main characters.

I think the proposal from the larger guilds does exactly what he's requesting. If the smaller guilds that wouldn't take shots before want to form a rotation, let them.

[Splorf22]

And you're supposition is that only TMO/FE/IB will compete in the FFA rounds. You're assumption is that nobody will be competing. We've seen Taken (just using as an example) pillage Ragefire for months followed by Inny for a month+; BDA has controlled 7 Voxes in a row under the current system. So clearly it's not going to be TMO/IB/FE in the other 50% of the month. Math requires concretes and there's nothing concrete.

Did you just compare Ragefire to Trakanon? It's hard for me to take this seriously, but . . . yeah, BDA might take Vox still (drops crap) but there is no way Taken continues their 96 hour poopsocks of Inny if they can just get him in the rotation every so often.

[falkun]

I think they'll wait.

And you're supposition is that only TMO/FE/IB will compete in the FFA rounds. You're assumption is that nobody will be competing. We've seen Taken (just using as an example) pillage Ragefire for months followed by Inny for a month+; BDA has controlled 7 Voxes in a row under the current system. So clearly it's not going to be TMO/IB/FE in the other 50% of the month. Math requires concretes and there's nothing concrete.

So now you are complaining because Taken and BDA "compete" (for these 2 mobs)? Do you want competition or do you want a giant slice of the pie? This argument sounds like your slice won't be large enough, not that you have to compete for it.

[Nlaar]

I think they'll wait.

And you're supposition is that only TMO/FE/IB will compete in the FFA rounds. You're assumption is that nobody will be competing. We've seen Taken (just using as an example) pillage Ragefire for months followed by Inny for a month+; BDA has controlled 7 Voxes in a row under the current system. So clearly it's not going to be TMO/IB/FE in the other 50% of the month. Math requires concretes and there's nothing concrete.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics

[Mezzmur]

So now you are complaining because Taken and BDA "compete" (for these 2 mobs)? Do you want competition or do you want a giant slice of the pie? This argument sounds like your slice won't be large enough, not that you have to compete for it.

I never complained, I stated fact.

I actually teamed up with IB & FE to compete against Taken for Ragefire when it was 6 vs 40. Sound familiar?

[goshozal]

Rogean gave you the non-classic variance which enabled you to do that, and now Rogean is somewhat regretting the decision. The Rogean giveth and the Rogean taketh away.

Step 1: create a problem
Step 2: watch the problem exacerbate for 2 years and make a lot of people miserable
Step 3: threaten to cut off everyone unless they solve the problem you created

Again, if the casual guilds put forth a proposal where TMO IBFE get 35% each of the mobs every month (that's 7 times as much as BDA and 11 times as much as The A-Team), and you turn it down, what do you think Rogean is going to do?

See above steps.

[Autotune]

I hope everyone gets raid suspended so I can hit 60 and get my new character ready for raiding.

Then I'll be much more ready for Velious at the start. Thank you all for being extremely retarded.

[Mezzmur]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics

He's giving me answers and telling me how many mobs we WILL get, not how many we COULD get if nothing ever changes.

There's a huge difference.

[Mezzmur]

I hope everyone gets raid suspended so I can hit 60 and get my new character ready for raiding.

Then I'll be much more ready for Velious at the start. Thank you all for being extremely retarded.

You want PL?

[citizen1080]

Except these same people never had an interest in pennies/pie/homes before, never worked towards getting these things in the least under the previous understanding, and now they read some Karl Marx and think they automatically get a large cut.

Not attacking you Jeremy, just saw this as a good spot to comment on this.


Many of us want to raid. Raid like we did on live. However, we have no interest in the current meta game that rules p99. The raid scene here is NOTHING like live was on any of the servers I played on. I for one don't want welfare mobs. But the current meta game required to see raid pixels is retarded. Just because we haven't been "hardcore' raiders on p99 in the past doesn't make our opinions any less valid.

You have stated many times that P99 is the first time you personally have played EQ. This is the only raiding you know. And honestly that sucks man, this is such a shit show compared to live it isn't even worth participating in for many of us.

Anyways...carry on

[Ravager]

Except these same people never had an interest in pennies/pie/homes before, never worked towards getting these things in the least under the previous understanding, and now they read some Karl Marx and think they automatically get a large cut.

So a guild wanting 6% (going by math I saw earlier) is a large cut? Pretty sure 23% of the mobs is still 400% more than the 6% of mobs everyone else gets. And it's not like they're not working for that 6%. They still have to track and batphone and get enough folks logged on to kill the mob.

And the work is arbitrary work put in place so that you can leech off a non-profit organization.

[Eloian]

You know what, Wipe the server. I love starting over.
http://youtu.be/gE42cZw34OI

Eloian Bushlover (I said Bush's Cucumber!)
(?) lvl Ranger <BDA>

[Autotune]

You want PL?

I got 30 more levels to go.

about 14 before super necro soloing becomes more available.

PLs or not (and I'll never turn down PLs, shits classic) I think I'll hit 60 before a new raid agreement is in place.

[goshozal]

Not attacking you Jeremy, just saw this as a good spot to comment on this.


Many of us want to raid. Raid like we did on live. However, we have no interest in the current meta game that rules p99. The raid scene here is NOTHING like live was on any of the servers I played on. I for one don't want welfare mobs. But the current meta game required to see raid pixels is retarded. Just because we haven't been "hardcore' raiders on p99 in the past doesn't make our opinions any less valid.

You have stated many times that P99 is the first time you personally have played EQ. This is the only raiding you know. And honestly that sucks man, this is such a shit show compared to live it isn't even worth participating in for many of us.

Anyways...carry on

Good post, Bob. I'd rather raids be like they were on live, myself. I haven't had time to play the "meta game" on TMO's normal level since around April. I've been trying to squeeze in the time I can and get more alts raidable to be able to park them in an attempt to be active in the "meta game" again.

But this server, despite being an attempt at recreating the golden age of live EQ, is nothing like live. Three years of Kunark have given rise to a completely unsustainable raiding population that has been forced into the "meta game" based on the existing server variance and FTE rules. Raids cannot be like they were on live when these rules are in place, and when you have a pool of 500 or so players who want to raid ~18 targets. When you have that population and those rules... this is what you get!

[Derubael]

I think they'll wait.


Would not count on us forcing a decision if everyone isn't in agreement.

**edit2** You can listen to Sirken's stream for all kinds of great info! We even talked briefly about this exact issue last night!


**edit** howdafuq is autotune leveling so fast. need to check that guy for mq2.

[Alarti0001]

Did you just compare Ragefire to Trakanon? It's hard for me to take this seriously, but . . . yeah, BDA might take Vox still (drops crap) but there is no way Taken continues their 96 hour poopsocks of Inny if they can just get him in the rotation every so often.

Really? It's hard to take your seriously, when you claim knowledge of facts you can't possibly know. Also rez sticks are nice:)

[Autotune]

Would not count on us forcing a decision if everyone isn't in agreement.


**edit** howdafuq is autotune leveling so fast. need to check that guy for mq2.

Please do, last time I got flagged I don't remember it running.

[JayN]

Would not count on us forcing a decision if everyone isn't in agreement.


**edit** howdafuq is autotune leveling so fast. need to check that guy for mq2.

Please do this is a cluster fuck of douchebaggery we need mom and dad to come in and tell us how to play... cause all of us red-headed step children all want to do different things.

Should just ban autotune for ban evasion! or wait for him to get 59 first >.<

[Mezzmur]

Would not count on us forcing a decision if everyone isn't in agreement.

**edit2** You can listen to Sirken's stream for all kinds of great info! We even talked briefly about this exact issue last night!


**edit** howdafuq is autotune leveling so fast. need to check that guy for mq2.

No Raid Kills + No Planar Clears; It's an epic siesta for all CSR staff. They'll all be stoned on a beach somewhere in Venezuela.

[Autotune]

Please do this is a cluster fuck of douchebaggery we need mom and dad to come in and tell us how to play... cause all of us red-headed step children all want to do different things.

Should just ban autotune for ban evasion! or wait for him to get 59 first >.<

Evasion? lol

[Mezzmur]

Evasion? lol

How is Xeli's account back from RMT and you're not yet? How recently you get banned? :(

[Mezzmur]

**edit2** You can listen to Sirken's stream for all kinds of great info! We even talked briefly about this exact issue last night!

We also talked about how much the CSR staff LOVES eating taco.

[radditsu]

Remove alt camping and poopsocking

[Nlaar]

Would not count on us forcing a decision if everyone isn't in agreement.

**edit2** You can listen to Sirken's stream for all kinds of great info! We even talked briefly about this exact issue last night!


My limited free time is not spent listening to Sirken's stream. I would hope that any relevant information in regards to the server as a whole would not be limited to comments in a stream but rather posted publicly for all to see.

[Mezzmur]

My limited free time is not spent listening to Sirken's stream. I would hope that any relevant information in regards to the server as a whole would not be limited to comments in a stream but rather posted publicly for all to see.

It was 100% conversational and not anything official, any official ruling would always be posted.

It was 99% Rogean, Sirken and Derubael shooting the shit and 1% Lyaa's Taco.

[Autotune]

How is Xeli's account back from RMT and you're not yet? How recently you get banned? :(

Several RMT and MQ accounts have had the bans lifted (idk how RMT accounts get unbanned and allowed to play again). Anyhow they stopped doing 2nd chances sometime after i got banned but before my 2nd chance petition period came along I guess.

I think the ban was placed in Feb or March and I didn't get word about it until a few weeks later. I also wasn't told very much about it during that time when I asked, only that Ephi sent my petition to Rogean and nothing else was ever said about it and because Ephi and Rogean were perma afk I was told to just wait and petition for a 2nd chance. Waited and then was told they don't do 2nd chances lol.

So I don't really know or remember what happened. I vaguely remember using MQ2 for one of the bot EQemu severs but I couldn't get it to help with bot AIs. I don't remember logging on to P99 with MQ running and I couldn't get any info about what MQ was used for on p99 on my account.

Only thing I was told is that the account was flagged 3 times (one time each on 3 different IPs).