Rotations =/= handouts

[Splorf22]

One of the obnoxious fooleries that seems to be emanating from some of the more enervated members of TMO (and quite a few members of FE) is 'you guys just want handouts'. Usually this is rapidly followed by 'might as well give everyone epics and trakanon bps in ec' or other strawmen.

This may not be obvious to the members of certain zerg guilds, but there is a substantial difference between getting an item and fighting a dragon, and it involves the dragon. Now, I am not criticizing the zerg guilds for zerging. Variance makes this necessary: you have to have warm bodies to track, you have to have warm bodies to log in at 4AM, and if you do all that work you damn sure don't want to wipe, so you have a few extra warm bodies to give you a decent margin for error. So if you can log in 30 people at 4AM, you get 50 at 6PM. Thus was born the zerg.

The pernicious aspect of zerging, though, is that you begin to see the mobs as loot pinatas that you whack for free goodies. There is no challenge or strategy, all that matters is who can log in the fastest. I remember Dolic saying he enjoyed the challenge of forming groups quickly. Please forgive me if I am not impressed at your group forming skill - not that you need it when you have 50 players anyway. The game becomes all about the pixels and the competition from the other people who are there to whack the loot pinata, and not about the camaraderie or the thrill of the chase. The actual fight is no challenge.

TL;DR: If you choose to roll with 50 players so you can relax and smoke a joint, I have no problems. Just realize that that is your choice, and some of us find the content moderately challenging.

[Ravager]

Dey terk er merbs!

[citizen1080]

Spawn more overlords

[goshozal]

If you choose to roll with 15 players so the 3-year-old content is still moderately challenging, I have no problems. Just realize that that is your choice, and some of us find the race to engage to be the only remaining challenge.

[Yinikren]

Race was run imo, no fun when you are only racing yourself.

[Autotune]

anything that isn't seen as direct head to head competition = hand outs. That is the mind set.

[Ele]

Like you said, I think part of this whole issue stems from people skipping over the idea that PvE still means that the players have to compete with the NPCs within the environment. However, most guilds are readily able to compete with the Classic/Kunark NPCs within the environment, so people have to impose other constructs of "competition" such as imposing time barriers (partially due to variance, but which nonetheless escalates to leap frogging, tracking, batphoning, etc), PvP (ala red), KS groups (within a FFA, xp=loot system), or simply training the other guild. That isn't to discount that EQ is a persistent world with a limited number of resources each week, which is a reality that must be dealt with in some manner. I sometimes like to think that P99 is some elaborate thought experiment run by a university or .gov to see how people interact with each other and build a society.

Another part of this issue is the mindset of "I had to go through it, so everyone else has to suffer the same as me". This sudden shift in the server raid scene causes people to question their choices, and people don't like being wrong. As an example: if a first group of people has about 500 collective tracking hours in a single week to get a majority of the targets, the first group of people are going to be understandably upset if a new group of people come into the raid scene the next week and the second group does not have to exercise that same barrier to entry that the first group of people did. However, the first group of people must acknowledge that they never had to go to such extremes, but made a choice to do so.

[happyhappy]

If you choose to roll with 15 players so the 3-year-old content is still moderately challenging, I have no problems. Just realize that that is your choice, and some of us find the race to engage to be the only remaining challenge.

Other side of the coin, it's your choice to play a subgame you made up instead of the actual game.

[Splorf22]

If you choose to roll with 15 players so the 3-year-old content is still moderately challenging, I have no problems. Just realize that that is your choice, and some of us find the race to engage to be the only remaining challenge.

In the end though, this is a meta-sub-game that you made up. Saying that people that are playing real EQ are getting handouts is just silly. That is my point.

[Ella`Ella]

Raiding has almost nothing to do with pixels for most of us. It really comes down to, "did we get the FTE and will we win the lawyering..."

[jaybone]

anything that isn't seen as direct head to head competition = hand outs. That is the mind set.

Why dont you just direct them towards MQ. Probably could give a few tips.

[Lammy]

As angry as Loraen is at everyone, I can respect and agree with the fact that raiding with less people is a lot more fun. However, I have no idea what your post is for...

[Gwence]

people on these forums use the word competition so much it's lost all it's meaning

newsflash - there is no competition on this server, there never has been any competition on this server. Even before poopsocking was implemented it was simply a very well organized good guild -vs- not so organized and ill prepared guilds. Why do you think poopsocks were introduced at all? The not so well organized guilds had to find a way to give them opportunities at killing bosses. And this template has held true throughout the servers history regardless of which guild is on top.


If anything a rotation is actually more competition based on the traditional definition of the word. It gives everyone an even playing field and the talent will show through or it won't. Not every guild will be capable of killing top end bosses ESPECIALLY in Velious. So you're only competition and really the only competition that's ever existed in EQ from the beginning of the game back in 1999 is the competition within your own guild and your own self to do whatever you can to make you and your guild better.

If it was PVP it would be a different story, but it's not.

[goshozal]

In the end though, this is a meta-sub-game that you made up. Saying that people that are playing real EQ are getting handouts is just silly. That is my point.

How is your EQ any more real than anyone else's? People zerged content on live. I remember going to a Trak raid that was 60+ players.

As Ele pointed out, people don't feel like it's handouts due to non-zerging guilds getting a shot. People feel like it's handouts because for the last 2+ years we've won loots by doing what we had to do in the track/race system, (which was the inevitable result of variance, as you have said many times) and now that behavior is labeled as "unfair." People don't like being told they're wrong/greedy/cheaters when they're doing what they had to do to conquer the system... because for them, conquering the system is the game. Their viewpoint is no less arbitrary than yours.

I still think you're right about repops, but I don't see this point.

[Byrjun]

I think the point is the myriad of posts suggesting that ANY sort of leeway from TMO would cause the server to spiral into pixel socialism. If you don't share that crazy view then this may not be aimed towards you.

[DrKvothe]

From the front page:

Welcome
Relive the classic Everquest MMORPG Gaming Experience as it was in 1999 and onward. Project 1999 is a free to play Emulated Everquest Server giving Players the opportunity to experience Classic EQ Once again, currently in the Kunark expansion and a max level of 60, with the look and feel of the old interface and several modifications making game mechanics similar to how the game used to be. Project 1999 is the best and most popular classic Everquest experience.

Recent Events
We are also all here for the same thing, to experience classic Everquest. The same guild monopolizing raid content for 2 years that they might not even need anymore is ridiculous, just to block other guilds from the chance of gearing up to take on the same end game content.

I was thinking to myself the other day and I came to ask myself.. Are we providing this server to give people the arena to compete to such bitter extremes that it has resorted to taking every absolute measure to be victorious, or are we here to provide a classic Everquest experience for everyone to enjoy?

If you think it's reasonable for adults in their upper 20s to lower 30s to 'compete' for mobs at the expense of real life, you're a loser. If you think that you being such a loser gives you license to deny the rest of the server a large portion of classic game content, you're a piece of shit ruining the server for everyone.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44425898.jpg

[Swish]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44425898.jpg

lol'd

[Alarti0001]

From the front page:



If you think it's reasonable for adults in their upper 20s to lower 30s to 'compete' for mobs at the expense of real life, you're a loser. If you think that you being such a loser gives you license to deny the rest of the server a large portion of classic game content, you're a piece of shit ruining the server for everyone.

Is there a real life expense? Or is that just what you tell yourself?

[Ella`Ella]

I think the point is the myriad of posts suggesting that ANY sort of leeway from TMO would cause the server to spiral into pixel socialism. If you don't share that crazy view then this may not be aimed towards you.

I would like to illuminate that TMO has been very active and receptive in developing a draft of changes to raid policies with FE. I think a large majority of the population is significantly underestimating the extent in which TMO has been willing to compromise with not only Forceful Entry, but with the server as a whole.

[Clark]

If you choose to roll with 15 players so the 3-year-old content is still moderately challenging, I have no problems. Just realize that that is your choice, and some of us find the race to engage to be the only remaining challenge.

[Pint]

I don't understand how getting free shots at dragons is not the same thing as being handed the dragon. I think the old Tmo stranglehold blew just as much as the rest of you guys but rotating kills and removing all challenge from the game sounds so much worse. Imagine how long the lines for dragons would be if everyone decided they wanted to try the 15 man dragon challenge.

[JayN]

<15 man dragon challenge> is recruiting now!

[Bones]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44425898.jpg
hahaha i died irl

[Barkingturtle]

If it's not about pixels; if it's not about the encounters; if it's all about racing to engage -- then maybe this week you highly accomplished Everquest kings and queens could race to kill the Froglok Executioner or the Kobold King instead of Trak.

Oh nm, you're all just full of shit.

[Alarti0001]

If it's not about pixels; if it's not about the encounters; if it's all about racing to engage -- then maybe this week you highly accomplished Everquest kings and queens could race to kill the Froglok Executioner or the Kobold King instead of Trak.

Oh nm, you're all just full of shit.

No you.

[heazels]

Thats why on live during this period if you werent in 'the' uber guild, you would be lucky to get 30 level 60's on at primetime...I just dont think its all that fun zerging down dragons either...

[heazels]

I don't understand how getting free shots at dragons is not the same thing as being handed the dragon. I think the old Tmo stranglehold blew just as much as the rest of you guys but rotating kills and removing all challenge from the game sounds so much worse. Imagine how long the lines for dragons would be if everyone decided they wanted to try the 15 man dragon challenge.

how is zerging down a mob or waking up when you get a text message a challenge? sounds boring to me. Maybe if they give all the dragons here 500k hp they will be a bit more of a challenge. You push auto attack and it dies, you can get that same experience at lvl 1 in the newbie area. I think TMO just likes play MMO games on God Mode and be the best at playing with God Mode. IDDQD so power.

[heazels]

How about?

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs43/i/2009/077/8/8/Don__t_Be_Evil_by_HushedChernobyl.png

[Bones]

If it's not about pixels; if it's not about the encounters; if it's all about racing to engage -- then maybe this week you highly accomplished Everquest kings and queens could race to kill the Froglok Executioner or the Kobold King instead of Trak.

Oh nm, you're all just full of shit.
;)

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

I would like to illuminate that TMO has been very active and receptive in developing a draft of changes to raid policies with FE. I think a large majority of the population is significantly underestimating the extent in which TMO has been willing to compromise with not only Forceful Entry, but with the server as a whole.
^^
TMO is not posting all over forums giving away free dragons so people like Byjurn are losing their mind , scrambling to find a way to win forum quest an get free loots.

Funny most the ones complaining are like this guy though...
Winga - 52 Barbarian Shaman <BDA> LOL
Go get level 60 , than come back and complain about raiding.
rofl @ level 52 wanting CT/Trakanon loots.
If you think its reasonable for level 60+ raid targets to be handed to casuals at level 52. Than YOU are a loser.
An there are plenty of games that suit your needs. Everquest is one of the few games that if you get the dragon loot, you know you worked for it. No casual is running around in a sexy PD robe. Everquest divides the Casual and Hardcore player nicely. You can tell who is what. You put in the time, you get the reward. But if you suck an stay at level 52 during 2+ EXP bonus events than you deserve level 52 and under content.

If you make the game easy mode you might as well rename it Classic EZ server.

[Daldaen]

People have been playing for so long and the game is so old, most of the challenge is lost.

A large part of the challenge of EQ was the environment.

With invis pulling, necrovacing Sky, full resist gear+potions, camping out multiple toons at multiple spawns... All of the challenge is lost with any real sized raid force.

Do Sky with the 24 allowed with no necrovacing and no pulling between islands, as it is intended to be done. Do VP without any invis, clearing everything. Do Trakanon with clearing his lair not skipping half of it. Do CT without kiting 90% of the zone trash. Try tanking without mallet/puppet string aggro. Hell.. Use a knight tank or ranger tank.

You can make the stuff hard without limiting to 15 characters. But you do have to limit yourself to certain strategies and whatnot. You just choose not to because it's easier and you have the knowledge to do it better/faster through other loopholes/exploits/tactics.

[Autotune]

^^
TMO is not posting all over forums giving away free dragons so people like Byjurn are losing their mind , scrambling to find a way to win forum quest an get free loots.

Funny most the ones complaining are like this guy though...
Winga - 52 Barbarian Shaman <BDA> LOL
Go get level 60 , than come back and complain about raiding.
rofl @ level 52 wanting CT/Trakanon loots.
If you think its reasonable for level 60+ raid targets to be handed to casuals at level 52. Than YOU are a loser.
An there are plenty of games that suit your needs. Everquest is one of the few games that if you get the dragon loot, you know you worked for it. No casual is running around in a sexy PD robe. Everquest divides the Casual and Hardcore player nicely. You can tell who is what. You put in the time, you get the reward. But if you suck an stay at level 52 during 2+ EXP bonus events than you deserve level 52 and under content.

If you make the game easy mode you might as well rename it Classic EZ server.

This guy is obviously a coat tail rider supreme.

[Erasong]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44425898.jpg

i remember this. fippy took what p99 started and made it extreme.. as if it wasnt extreme and retarded enough already.

[Ravager]

I would like to illuminate that TMO has been very active and receptive in developing a draft of changes to raid policies with FE. I think a large majority of the population is significantly underestimating the extent in which TMO has been willing to compromise with not only Forceful Entry, but with the server as a whole.

Rogean didn't tell TMO that it was FE they had to come to terms with. If TMO/FE aren't including the rest of the server in on these talks, then the rest of the server (majority) shouldn't include TMO/FE in their talks. Let's see who gets their way.

[justin2090]

^^
TMO is not posting all over forums giving away free dragons so people like Byjurn are losing their mind , scrambling to find a way to win forum quest an get free loots.

Funny most the ones complaining are like this guy though...
Winga - 52 Barbarian Shaman <BDA> LOL
Go get level 60 , than come back and complain about raiding.
rofl @ level 52 wanting CT/Trakanon loots.
If you think its reasonable for level 60+ raid targets to be handed to casuals at level 52. Than YOU are a loser.
An there are plenty of games that suit your needs. Everquest is one of the few games that if you get the dragon loot, you know you worked for it. No casual is running around in a sexy PD robe. Everquest divides the Casual and Hardcore player nicely. You can tell who is what. You put in the time, you get the reward. But if you suck an stay at level 52 during 2+ EXP bonus events than you deserve level 52 and under content.

If you make the game easy mode you might as well rename it Classic EZ server.

I remember killing dragons before lvl 60 during live. Your just a breed of the WoW elitist gamers. Let me guess you want a gear score mod and some damage meters too eh? Oh and btw I wouldn't call anyone a looser while your sitting on multiple lvl 60's LOL.

People want to experience classic EQ as they did back in the day but just don't have the classic amount of time to put in. Getting to lvl 52 is a task and a half for someone with few hours to play each week. You act like everyone has as much time on their hands as you do.

People just want to participate in dragon kills is all. No one is expecting "a sexy new PD robe". Although I did see a lvl 30 tmo alt with vp loot once. LVL 30 VP LOOT. Whenever you can do that it's time to hang it up. Congratulations! You beat classic EQ! Now let someone else have a turn jackass.

[heartbrand]

sounds really intense guys

[Iliilliill]

i don't know why, but all this arguing and complaining forumquesting just made me think "hey, WoW might be cool to try again"

i hope that thought passes, though.

[Alarti0001]

Rogean didn't tell TMO that it was FE they had to come to terms with. If TMO/FE aren't including the rest of the server in on these talks, then the rest of the server (majority) shouldn't include TMO/FE in their talks. Let's see who gets their way.

You don't know what you think you know.

[Byrjun]

I would like to illuminate that TMO has been very active and receptive in developing a draft of changes to raid policies with FE. I think a large majority of the population is significantly underestimating the extent in which TMO has been willing to compromise with not only Forceful Entry, but with the server as a whole.

Sure, it's always a shitty minority. I didn't mean TMO as a whole. I was drunk when I made that post.

[Alarti0001]

I know that TMO has killed Trakanon over 200 times. That is 400 to 1000 trak teeth for VP keys? How many fucking more trak teeth do you need to bank? How many more guts do you think you need to sell to bards at 750kpp for their epic to keep the RMT / alt buying business going?

Sharing is caring. The monopoly needs to stop.

At least 7 more of each.

[heazels]

best solution imo, ban tmo from killing trak, naggie, vox.

[heartbrand]

Man, if only there were a way you could fight TMO and other guilds trying to monopolize spawns rather than be powerless. Shucks.

[Ella`Ella]

Sharing is caring. The monopoly needs to stop.

How many times has BDA actually camped out and even attempted to engage Trak, VS, CT, or otherwise? You have people willing to track. You have people on a batphone. And, you have people willing to answer said batphone...

BDA said it was impossible to compete with TMO when a handful of members broke off and formed FE. Those members camped out at trak for months, waking up at strange hours to watch TMO get the engage and kill trak, yet we still kept trying. 5 months later we had our first VP kill. Stop saying it's not possible/it's a monopoly when you don't even make an attempt.

[Retti_]

sig

[quido]

I like it when derpstars accuse TMO of guild-wide RMT. Crazyeyes RMTed of his own accord and if we'd known about it he'd have been instantly removed. TMO has never bought accounts as a guild.

Any plat we earned was put back into the guild (BCGs, Thex Daggers, Prenerf Fungis, Red Dragonscale BPs, etc).

[Splorf22]

Their viewpoint is no less arbitrary than yours.

No, it isn't. Because you guys have been playing VarianceQuest (hereafter referred to as VQ), which is not classic. So if some sort of raid agreement is worked out and people can get back to playing EQ rather than VQ, it's not a handout. Because VQ was an arbitrary non-classic impediment introduced by the server admins. People talking about handouts would be like MLB players after drug testing 'oh these people get to play without shooting up'. VQ is harder than EQ, so if you've been succeeding at VQ your attitude is that ordinary EQ is trivial. Well, I'm sorry, but that's the game.

Everquest is one of the few games that if you get the dragon loot, you know you worked for it.

Like Maksim, you are confusing VQ and EQ. Killing PD is not hard, as the pickup raids proved. Your achievement is exploiting non-classic CSR and variance rules.

As angry as Loraen is at everyone, I can respect and agree with the fact that raiding with less people is a lot more fun. However, I have no idea what your post is for...

Using generic memes like 'u mad bro' when not called for . . . admits he cannot understand OP . . . no wit or panache . . . 2/10 forumquesting level

[Alarti0001]

No, it isn't. Because you guys have been playing VarianceQuest (hereafter referred to as VQ), which is not classic. So if some sort of raid agreement is worked out and people can get back to playing EQ rather than VQ, it's not a handout. Because VQ was an arbitrary non-classic impediment introduced by the server admins. People talking about handouts would be like MLB players after drug testing 'oh these people get to play without shooting up'. VQ is harder than EQ, so if you've been succeeding at VQ your attitude is that ordinary EQ is trivial. Well, I'm sorry, but that's the game.



Like Maksim, you are confusing VQ and EQ. Killing PD is not hard, as the pickup raids proved. Your achievement is exploiting non-classic CSR and variance rules.



Using generic memes like 'u mad bro' when not called for . . . admits he cannot understand OP . . . no wit or panache . . . 2/10 forumquesting level

VQ > PQ

[Clark]

I don't understand how getting free shots at dragons is not the same thing as being handed the dragon. I think the old Tmo stranglehold blew just as much as the rest of you guys but rotating kills and removing all challenge from the game sounds so much worse. Imagine how long the lines for dragons would be if everyone decided they wanted to try the 15 man dragon challenge.

If you make the game easy mode you might as well rename it Classic EZ server.

How many times has BDA actually camped out and even attempted to engage Trak, VS, CT, or otherwise? You have people willing to track. You have people on a batphone. And, you have people willing to answer said batphone...

BDA said it was impossible to compete with TMO when a handful of members broke off and formed FE. Those members camped out at trak for months, waking up at strange hours to watch TMO get the engage and kill trak, yet we still kept trying. 5 months later we had our first VP kill. Stop saying it's not possible/it's a monopoly when you don't even make an attempt.

[SwordNboard]

Keep variance, decrease timers drastically, whatever guild gets whatever target cannot get that target for 1 week. Repeat.

[happyhappy]

Again, you are confusing a game you made up to make it interesting for yourself with the actual game.

If baseball stops being challenging to you, you don't get to make it about the first who wins the race to the bat instead.

[Nirgon]

Take away all the raid mobs and people will do this over camps, notably the highest value ones.

Its a matter of content.

Time to unleash the icebox of Velious, and all of its horrors.

[Rhambuk]

3 years.....T...H...R...E....E...Y...E...A....R...S. ...

This server hasn't changed, it never will. Variance will still screw the little man, zerg guilds will be #1 and nothing will ever change.



Ever.

[YendorLootmonkey]

How many times has BDA actually camped out and even attempted to engage Trak, VS, CT, or otherwise? You have people willing to track. You have people on a batphone. And, you have people willing to answer said batphone...

BDA said it was impossible to compete with TMO when a handful of members broke off and formed FE. Those members camped out at trak for months, waking up at strange hours to watch TMO get the engage and kill trak, yet we still kept trying. 5 months later we had our first VP kill. Stop saying it's not possible/it's a monopoly when you don't even make an attempt.

Because poopsocking for days is ridiculous for essentially what boils down to Fastest Javelin in the West. The splinter group from BDA that formed FE didn't think it was ridiculous, and instead perpetuated this concept that keeps getting mistaken for competition, and which continues to drive the raid scene being a shitshow. Because after devoting that much time and waking up at 3am for kills when you have work at 0700... the stakes have escalated so extremely high that guilds doing this resort to trains, rules lawyering, stall tanking, whatever it takes to make sure that extreme amount of effort which you have created for yourselves gets rewarded with pixels.

Rogean and the rest of the server feel that these extremes are what makes the server miserable and need to be changed... yet you're here chastising a guild for taking a stand for the sanity of its members and not adding another 60-80 players to the identified problem?

So, yeah... that's why we don't make an attempt to intensify the already existing issues with the raid scene. The stakes would have been even higher and we would have gotten to this "enough is enough" point far sooner.

[DrKvothe]

^^
TMO is not posting all over forums giving away free dragons so people like Byjurn are losing their mind , scrambling to find a way to win forum quest an get free loots.

Funny most the ones complaining are like this guy though...
Winga - 52 Barbarian Shaman <BDA> LOL
Go get level 60 , than come back and complain about raiding.
rofl @ level 52 wanting CT/Trakanon loots.
If you think its reasonable for level 60+ raid targets to be handed to casuals at level 52. Than YOU are a loser.
An there are plenty of games that suit your needs. Everquest is one of the few games that if you get the dragon loot, you know you worked for it. No casual is running around in a sexy PD robe. Everquest divides the Casual and Hardcore player nicely. You can tell who is what. You put in the time, you get the reward. But if you suck an stay at level 52 during 2+ EXP bonus events than you deserve level 52 and under content.

If you make the game easy mode you might as well rename it Classic EZ server.

Sig outdated. Not 60 yet, though. Guess I'm just casual scum. I'll be no more willing to raid the way y'all do at 60 than I am now.

I don't give two shits about CT/Trak loot for myself. Really. Couldn't care less. I know I'm unlikely to see them until better is available in velious. As a conscientious member of this community, I care about CT/Trak kills for guilds that are perfectly capable of taking him down when given a reasonable opportunity. Yes that means BDA. It also means Taken, Azure Guard, etc. Considering your current duopoly of VP, the idea that you would cockblock other guilds from the rest of the content that is as trivial to you as blackburrow is simply outrageous. Especially when that cockblocking ensures your duopoly of VP.

Everquest divides the Casual and Hardcore player nicely. You can tell who is what. You put in the time, you get the reward."

I think variance quest and insta-gibbing 32k dragons has made you forget what the challenge of classic EQ was to most of us. Sure, you've gotta play to progress. But you've gotta play smart, because the game is actually challenging, and playing dumb is heavily penalized. If you want a game where time = loot at nearly the same rate for anyone even remotely competent, play a modern MMO.

We've really lost a lot of the EQ challenge on this server due to the markets being saturated at the high end. Weapons 2-4x better dps than rusty are casually given away to players on day one by complete strangers, and those players can afford a full set of banded and jewelry after a couple of afternoons killing newbie trash mobs. 96% rez is available nearly everywhere. Lowbie leveling in full druid/shaman/enchanter buffs is the standard. Wiki is just one tab away, filled with invaluable information.

Don't get me wrong, I actually prefer it this way. But this server was the Classic EZ Server before I got here, and people with too much time on their hands abused that to maintain some false sense of superiority. You don't even like the race. You like to see others lose it.

[Hitpoint]

A full rotation absolutely = handouts. If the big guilds are too dominant, then the solution is for smaller guilds to have the opportunity to compete with each other. Anything else is charity.

[Hitpoint]

Because poopsocking for days is ridiculous for essentially what boils down to Fastest Javelin in the West.

So many people think this way, and it's the biggest hypocrisy in EQ. If you play EQ you track shit all day long, indirectly. You sit in your group and wait for named to respawn, you kill AC placeholders, you press track looking for Quillmane, you wait multiple hours for Hadden to spawn. It doesn't matter if your on a monk in trakanon's lair, or an enchanter camping frenzy, it's all the same thing. I tracked Trakanon for an hour yesterday while watching Netflix. Would my time have been better spent quading on my crappy druid 4th alt? BDA can track raid targets 24/7 if they want to. They choose to track everything else instead.

[Kope]

Haven't the big guilds just built their strategy and guild structure around the current ruleset and that's why they have dominated? What's so bad about altering that again for a new ruleset that benefits not only the other guilds but them as well?

If we come to a decision where the smaller guilds have a shot at the big raid bosses that they need to progress, and content is viable for everyone to attempt when they feel they are ready, how is that a bad thing when the number of mobs is increased (simulated patch respawn days) as well as the time needed for tracking goes down from weeks to maybe a couple hours because of variance changes?

I understand TMO and FE/IB being concerned about losing out on mobs by "giving" it to others, but rules can change for the betterment of everyone by including more.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be a 100% rotation. Divinity has released a suggestion that would not only include a rotation for everyone to have a shot at what they need as a guild to progress but also a time period where mobs are FFA and the "competition" you desire isn't extinguished.

I'm not asking for everyone to give up what they want, but a compromise could literally benefit everyone on the server including GMs. The # of mobs doesn't have to be a static thing, if we work together we can all benefit.

[jaybone]

Sig outdated. Not 60 yet, though. Guess I'm just casual scum. I'll be no more willing to raid the way y'all do at 60 than I am now.

I don't give two shits about CT/Trak loot for myself. Really. Couldn't care less. I know I'm unlikely to see them until better is available in velious. As a conscientious member of this community, I care about CT/Trak kills for guilds that are perfectly capable of taking him down when given a reasonable opportunity. Yes that means BDA. It also means Taken, Azure Guard, etc. Considering your current duopoly of VP, the idea that you would cockblock other guilds from the rest of the content that is as trivial to you as blackburrow is simply outrageous. Especially when that cockblocking ensures your duopoly of VP.



I think variance quest and insta-gibbing 32k dragons has made you forget what the challenge of classic EQ was to most of us. Sure, you've gotta play to progress. But you've gotta play smart, because the game is actually challenging, and playing dumb is heavily penalized. If you want a game where time = loot at nearly the same rate for anyone even remotely competent, play a modern MMO.

We've really lost a lot of the EQ challenge on this server due to the markets being saturated at the high end. Weapons 2-4x better dps than rusty are casually given away to players on day one by complete strangers, and those players can afford a full set of banded and jewelry after a couple of afternoons killing newbie trash mobs. 96% rez is available nearly everywhere. Lowbie leveling in full druid/shaman/enchanter buffs is the standard. Wiki is just one tab away, filled with invaluable information.

Don't get me wrong, I actually prefer it this way. But this server was the Classic EZ Server before I got here, and people with too much time on their hands abused that to maintain some false sense of superiority. You don't even like the race. You like to see others lose it.

Have people not realized that TMO is one big RMT scheme??? Why else would you need to farm pointless elf pixels for years straight?

Again, server needs wiped and restarted. Only way to give a classic experience at this point. 3 years of kunark was too much.

[Lojik]

Loraen I think I agree with most of your points in terms of diagnosing problems with the server, however I can't help but feel you want classic eq to be something it's not. There is nothing inherently difficult about it, and after a point it's not all that fun. It's rewarding at first, climbing through levels and getting gear upgrades and taking on more challenging encounters, but after that point EQ is more like a drug. People still seek upgrades and what not, but I think people mostly don't want to leave behind what they've put so much time into, they fall into the EQ trap- Need more pixels... why? Cause I need to kill more dragons... why? Cause I need more pixels...ad inf.

The fact that this is a free emulated server that's been around for a while just makes things worse: this is a home for people to be on a powertrip due to "I've put in more hours than you have or before you even had the opportunity." Nothing about gameplay is challenging, and people who claim there is some sort of competition that is anything but retarded are deluding themselves.

You're an intelligent guy seeking fun, fair, challenging and engaging competition...that's just not classic eq.

[YendorLootmonkey]

So many people think this way, and it's the biggest hypocrisy in EQ. If you play EQ you track shit all day long, indirectly. You sit in your group and wait for named to respawn, you kill AC placeholders, you press track looking for Quillmane, you wait multiple hours for Hadden to spawn. It doesn't matter if your on a monk in trakanon's lair, or an enchanter camping frenzy, it's all the same thing. I tracked Trakanon for an hour yesterday while watching Netflix. Would my time have been better spent quading on my crappy druid 4th alt? BDA can track raid targets 24/7 if they want to. They choose to track everything else instead.

Last I checked, except for maybe Quillmane, everything else you mention has no variance, you know when the PH or named will spawn, and you can set a timer for it.

You're also not competing for FTE since you "own" that camp, so you will get that kill as a reward for your time when it finally spawns. Pretty sure if you were at the pained soul camp in TT for 8 hours, it finally spawned, and someone nicked it from you... you'd have a problem with that.

These things also don't require 15+ of your buddies camping out their mains nearby and you hope they all log in before the opposing guilds get their forces ready. All of those collective man hours lost if your guild's javelin wasn't fast enough.

So yeah, two drastically different situations with drastically different stakes the way the raid scene works currently.

[Nlaar]

No, it isn't. Because you guys have been playing VarianceQuest (hereafter referred to as VQ), which is not classic. So if some sort of raid agreement is worked out and people can get back to playing EQ rather than VQ, it's not a handout. Because VQ was an arbitrary non-classic impediment introduced by the server admins. People talking about handouts would be like MLB players after drug testing 'oh these people get to play without shooting up'. VQ is harder than EQ, so if you've been succeeding at VQ your attitude is that ordinary EQ is trivial. Well, I'm sorry, but that's the game.


Indeed Loraen. The fact is how "competition" on this server has been defined and acted upon is crazy. I would like us to revisit how we want to compete on this server.

400-1000 Trak teeth? That is crazy.

[Daldaen]

Handouts = a high end guild killing Trakanon and then giving away Donal's BP and Singing Steel BP in a /randomfest in EC. Then giving away Trak Guts MQ to the first bard to /tell. And giving Torpor away to the first shaman to bear form and /dance.

Rotation = lower end guilds have a chance to gather their 25~ members together, on a single night, at a pre-designated time, to attempt to kill Trakanon. Without having to track for 24 hour window to check for spawn or worry about another guild logging in 40 Alts who are fully buffed in lair and leapfrogging the engage.

Every point of damage dealt, taken and healed will be done by the smaller guild in the rotation. They will have killed (or wiped) the mob on their own. Receiving their own pixels.

Some of you don't seem to have a good grasp of what the word handout really means.

[Alarti0001]

Indeed Loraen. The fact is how "competition" on this server has been defined and acted upon is crazy. I would like us to revisit how we want to compete on this server.

400-1000 Trak teeth? That is crazy.

That is the fault of Delayed Velious.. not TMO :)

[Hitpoint]

Last I checked, except for maybe Quillmane, everything else you mention has no variance, you know when the PH or named will spawn, and you can set a timer for it.

You're also not competing for FTE since you "own" that camp, so you will get that kill as a reward for your time when it finally spawns. Pretty sure if you were at the pained soul camp in TT for 8 hours, it finally spawned, and someone nicked it from you... you'd have a problem with that.

These things also don't require 15+ of your buddies camping out their mains nearby and you hope they all log in before the opposing guilds get their forces ready. All of those collective man hours lost if your guild's javelin wasn't fast enough.

So yeah, two drastically different situations with drastically different stakes the way the raid scene works currently.

It doesn't matter if there's no variance. You're doing something time consuming and monotonous. You have to pay somewhat attention, you don't know when the mob will appear. In terms of time and effort put in by the tracker it's exactly the same thing. How is FTE a consideration at all? Your guild does not enable you to jav quicker or farm DA idols.

If big guilds can camp at multiple targets, small guilds can camp at 1 target if they want it. See what Taken is doing with Inny. I bet most of your guild has more raid level characters than I do.

I like you and I agree with a lot of your posts, but I simply disagree with you on this. You said guilds don't want to track targets and answer batphones, but it's really not that much to ask from people who play this game. Nobody has to answer 3 am batphones. That's why you have 100+ people on a batphone. The people who are awake or in other timezones, or just don't give a shit can answer. The people who are sleeping can sleep if they want to. If you want a target, you will track it and drop this mindset that you're somehow above tracking. The only mob that actually gets "poopsocked" is VS.

[Jarnauga]

When i see some FE people talking, i wonder why they hate TMO.

[falkun]

Fantastic sig Jarn.

[Nlaar]

That is the fault of Delayed Velious.. not TMO :)

Yup, I would agree that the delay of Velious has contributed to the absurd amount of Trak teeth that have dropped during our P99 Kunark Era. The distribution of where those teeth have ended up is a whole different story.

[YendorLootmonkey]

It doesn't matter if there's no variance. You're doing something time consuming and monotonous. You have to pay somewhat attention, you don't know when the mob will appear. In terms of time and effort put in by the tracker it's exactly the same thing. How is FTE a consideration at all? Your guild does not enable you to jav quicker or farm DA idols.

So you're saying the Hooded Black Cloak I camp with a single toon and no competition for FTE every 22 minutes the PH/Dhampyre spawns like clockwork for the time period that I choose to play for the evening is the same effort as camping out 15+ toons for a mob that spawns in a 96+ hour window, after which it spawns, at possibly sometime outside of my awake hours let alone my play hours, I'm still not guaranteed my time is rewarded because my guild might not even get FTE?

Yeah, okay, we'll agree to disagree on that one.

If big guilds can camp at multiple targets, small guilds can camp at 1 target if they want it. See what Taken is doing with Inny.

I already had a member of Taken comment on what they thought of it in a different thread, and they think it's ridiculous and taking a toll on their guild, too. It raises the stakes way too high and contributes to the current raid scene. Just wait until Taken puts that kind of effort into camping something to have it sniped from them on a technicality.

This model of competition is not sustainable for the majority of the server, despite two guilds trying to dictate it as the barrier to entry. Rogean has stated this status quo is not acceptable. Which is why Rogean has asked us to come up with something better.

[Alarti0001]

So you're saying the Hooded Black Cloak I camp with a single toon and no competition for FTE every 22 minutes the PH/Dhampyre spawns like clockwork for the time period that I choose to play for the evening is the same effort as camping out 15+ toons for a mob that spawns in a 96+ hour window, after which it spawns, at possibly sometime outside of my awake hours let alone my play hours, I'm still not guaranteed my time is rewarded because my guild might not even get FTE?

Yeah, okay, we'll agree to disagree on that one.



I already had a member of Taken comment on what they thought of it in a different thread, and they think it's ridiculous and taking a toll on their guild, too. It raises the stakes way too high and contributes to the current raid scene. Just wait until Taken puts that kind of effort into camping something to have it sniped from them on a technicality.

This model of competition is not sustainable for the majority of the server, despite two guilds trying to dictate it as the barrier to entry. Rogean has stated this status quo is not acceptable. Which is why Rogean has asked us to come up with something better.

You don't know what you think you know :)

[Hitpoint]

So you're saying the Hooded Black Cloak I camp with a single toon and no competition for FTE every 22 minutes the PH/Dhampyre spawns like clockwork for the time period that I choose to play for the evening is the same effort as camping out 15+ toons for a mob that spawns in a 96+ hour window, after which it spawns, at possibly sometime outside of my awake hours let alone my play hours, I'm still not guaranteed my time is rewarded because my guild might not even get FTE?

Yeah, okay, we'll agree to disagree on that one.

I think it's exactly the same effort for the single tracker involved, yes. Even less effort actually as you don't have to kill a PH. Often I track with only a tiny portion of my screen visible.

Camping toons is a different issue. There are plenty of mobs that can be mobilized for without parking. Fay, Gore (long pulls and setups give people time to port there). WC caps for anything in Hate. Only need like 5 people camped at the fear portal for draco fte, anyone else can potion or port over in time. I think you overestimate what it takes to get fte and kill things right now. For most things, the only thing that needs to be super fast is the pull.

I must have missed the part where Rogean said tracking and parking are unacceptable.

[Retti_]

Any updates?

[Ella`Ella]

Because poopsocking for days is ridiculous for essentially what boils down to Fastest Javelin in the West. The splinter group from BDA that formed FE didn't think it was ridiculous, and instead perpetuated this concept that keeps getting mistaken for competition, and which continues to drive the raid scene being a shitshow. Because after devoting that much time and waking up at 3am for kills when you have work at 0700... the stakes have escalated so extremely high that guilds doing this resort to trains, rules lawyering, stall tanking, whatever it takes to make sure that extreme amount of effort which you have created for yourselves gets rewarded with pixels.

Rogean and the rest of the server feel that these extremes are what makes the server miserable and need to be changed... yet you're here chastising a guild for taking a stand for the sanity of its members and not adding another 60-80 players to the identified problem?

So, yeah... that's why we don't make an attempt to intensify the already existing issues with the raid scene. The stakes would have been even higher and we would have gotten to this "enough is enough" point far sooner.

Trak and CT are never poopsocked...

[Ele]

Trak and CT are never poopsocked...

Depends on your definition of poopsocking.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

If you think it's reasonable for adults in their upper 20s to lower 30s to 'compete' for mobs at the expense of real life, you're a loser. If you think that you being such a loser gives you license to deny the rest of the server a large portion of classic game content, you're a piece of shit ruining the server for everyone.

I would add, if you are so invested it irks you that your guild can't compete with no-life losers on a 15 year old elf simulator for end game content.....

you know the rest.

[Chrimes]

Current rules > Care bear policy.

[doraf]

Getting FTE on a mob and pulling it across a zone to a raid force that isn't even in the zone yet is shady as fuck IMO. Reminds me of when a single FE/IB got FTE on Draco with a full BDA raid force in zone. Just wrong.

Join FE and get FTE!

[fastboy21]

The only thing I don't really understand about the plan for any possible rotation is how do you determine which guilds get a spot? how many spots? the most desirable spot? etc...

In velious it is a lot easier to weed out the guilds that can't do certain content...in kunark and classic, a guild of moderately well geared 20 people or less that know how to play EQ can take out most 32k dragons.

Does that mean that every guild that fields a semi-reasonable force will get a shot at the mob? What is the formula for determining it?

There are many "capable" but up until now way too casual guilds to get in on the raid game...if there are rotations they would probably be looking to move into that area of p99 that they have been avoiding so far.

I'm curious to see how you can fairly handle situations like that if p99 moves into a rotation agreement for most kunark mobs.

[Hitpoint]

Getting FTE on a mob and pulling it across a zone to a raid force that isn't even in the zone yet is shady as fuck IMO. Reminds me of when a single FE/IB got FTE on Draco with a full BDA raid force in zone. Just wrong.

Those are the rules on the server though, and they can benefit anyone who uses them. BDA can do the same thing to us if we're in fear. And that kind of pull has it's downside too. Draco is easy enough. But if you pull talendor or sev to your kill spot and not enough people are logged in or mobilized there. You're going to wipe, and the other guild can take their time and get a free kill. It happens.

[skipdog]

If you wanted uncontested raid mobs, why play here? When was there ever a notion that raid mobs here would be uncontested?

There are plenty of other EMU servers you guys can do your 'low numbers dragon kills'. Why does it have to be here when its always been clear from the start that 'there will be competition for dragons'?

[lecompte]

So this is my first post on any thread related to the recent server activity, so bear with me: There seems to be a lot of people saying things like changes to the raid seen are a nicety and/or optional and that TMO/FE/WhoTheFuckEver is WILLING to talk about changes... The impression I get from Rogean posts are there is no willing, there is no option; the sword of Damocles hangs overhead -- save your pixels. Move the conversation along.

[Ravager]

Those are the rules on the server though, and they can benefit anyone who uses them. BDA can do the same thing to us if we're in fear. And that kind of pull has it's downside too. Draco is easy enough. But if you pull talendor or sev to your kill spot and not enough people are logged in or mobilized there. You're going to wipe, and the other guild can take their time and get a free kill. It happens.

That's what DA stall tanking is for silly!

[Hitpoint]

That's what DA stall tanking is for silly!

Yea it can definitely help.

[Ravager]

If you wanted uncontested raid mobs, why play here? When was there ever a notion that raid mobs here would be uncontested?

There are plenty of other EMU servers you guys can do your 'low numbers dragon kills'. Why does it have to be here when its always been clear from the start that 'there will be competition for dragons'?

If you want contested mobs, why play here, when there's a red server where EVERYTHING is contested? There is plenty of other EMU server where you can do your zerg dragon kills. Why does it have to be here where it's always been clear from the start that the competition is the dragon?

[Hitpoint]

Just because the rules permit it does not make it right. The rules have permitted TMO to own the server for quite some time now, but GMs want the community to change shit. Rules must not be right

This is an old argument but, would you rather have TMO run the server uncontested? Because you need to be willing to be aggressive with pulls to compete with them. You seem to be unhappy with that incident still, but if a tmo monk was camped on that spot (as they've been known to do) and got FTE before us, I doubt you'd see us as the bad guys then.

[skipdog]

If you want contested mobs, why play here, when there's a red server where EVERYTHING is contested? There is plenty of other EMU server where you can do your zerg dragon kills. Why does it have to be here where it's always been clear from the start that the competition is the dragon?

Cute attempt on twisting my words, but it was never clear from the start that the competition is the dragon. There is a reason we are all here playing on this server that does not feature instances.

[Rhambuk]

Quit now!

Remember how eq was and was supposed to be, don't taint your memory with the fallacy of P99!

[Ravager]

Cute attempt on twisting my words, but it was never clear from the start that the competition is the dragon. There is a reason we are all here playing on this server that does not feature instances.

There's a reason it's called Player versus Environment. And there are exactly as many instances on the Red server.

[YendorLootmonkey]

You don't know what you think you know :)

Uh oh... Alarti's making ominous, veiled statements with a shit-eating grin. Something shady must be going on behind the scenes.

[Hitpoint]

There's a reason it's called Player versus Environment.

Pretty sure this is a WoW term. Isn't it?

[Ele]

Pretty sure this is a WoW term. Isn't it?

No.

[Kope]

Pretty sure this is a WoW term. Isn't it?

No, it's either an EQ originating term or possibly UO. EQ used it heavily though, at least the PvP servers did...

[Rhambuk]

I'm not in BDA, but I am pretty heavily against leap-frogging. If a guild, regardless of which guild, is about to engage Gore near the tunnel and another guilds bard grabs her to pull to FV for a raid that is not yet even in zone, that is fucked up.

That is p99 and why so many of us have quit over the years.

With a little more gm intervention the server pop would be a solid 5-800 players more.

which a lot of you would freak out at the thought of having more "competition" but remember classic servers with 2500 on a weeknight during kunark. Cities had citizens....

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

The only thing I don't really understand about the plan for any possible rotation is how do you determine which guilds get a spot? how many spots? the most desirable spot? etc...

In velious it is a lot easier to weed out the guilds that can't do certain content...in kunark and classic, a guild of moderately well geared 20 people or less that know how to play EQ can take out most 32k dragons.

Does that mean that every guild that fields a semi-reasonable force will get a shot at the mob? What is the formula for determining it?

There are many "capable" but up until now way too casual guilds to get in on the raid game...if there are rotations they would probably be looking to move into that area of p99 that they have been avoiding so far.

I'm curious to see how you can fairly handle situations like that if p99 moves into a rotation agreement for most kunark mobs.

this is why any kind of rotation system sucks.

mobilization. be able to do it, or wait till the content is obsolete. but, i do think a courtesy rule should be made. If a competing guild has managed to mobilize, and your guild got the previous kill, they get 20 minutes. This means even a casual guild can get a shot, on anything, as long as they are willing to commit to mobilize.

Willing to commit to mobilize needs to be a sine qua non. Rotations eliminate a critical part of the rush of classic eq.

Plus, you know who else liked rotations? Hitler.

And yes, I'll keep repeating that idea. It's all I got.

[drktmplr12]

To Mr. Turp:

You have contributed nothing to this thread except your asinine perception of what Classic EQ was about 15 years ago and what you think this server is about.

I have news:


























No one cares.

Everyone is here to be part of a community. The root word: commune.

A commune is an intentional community of people living together, sharing common interests, property, possessions, resources, and, in some communes, work and income. In addition to the communal economy, consensus decision-making, non-hierarchical structures and ecological living have become important core principles for many communes.

You are not contributing by belittling other members of the community. People like you make the community toxic.

That is all.

[Castigate]

So this is my first post on any thread related to the recent server activity, so bear with me: There seems to be a lot of people saying things like changes to the raid seen are a nicety and/or optional and that TMO/FE/WhoTheFuckEver is WILLING to talk about changes... The impression I get from Rogean posts are there is no willing, there is no option; the sword of Damocles hangs overhead -- save your pixels. Move the conversation along.

This is exactly what people seem to be trying to forget in all of this. I see plenty of people saying that the current/former rules are the rules we should end up sticking with. I also see a lot of bargaining over what essentially is the minimum we can do to make him happy so that Velious has all the toys we want to play with.

For the very slow who don't truly understand what's at stake in these conversations, get this through your heads already please.

ROGEAN DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK IF IT WOULD KILL THE SERVER, he will release Velious minus raid mobs if we don't actually try to improve things. I mean really try, not this petty fighting over what is/was/could be a monopoly, duopoly, or on the other end socialized pixels. Stop thinking things could go back to the way they were, because if they do I would guess Rogean would be more likely to shut the whole project down than let you continue doing what has been done.

Honestly when TMO comes off suspension I would like to see 2 weeks of no raid content at all on this server, hell start it now. People need to step back and get a little bit of perspective on this shit rather than continuing to pretend it will go away if they ignore it.

Personally I'm a fan of using decay models for how long guilds must wait on different mobs, they dont even have to be the same for every mob and they essentially solve most arguments that come up. For the world dragons and generally agreed less contested mobs it could be 2h 1h 30m 15m 7m30s 3m45s 1m53s free. Sure most of those times beyond 15mins would never get used, but if an up and coming guild wanted a crack at a dragon, and was willing to put in the work, they'd often get a relatively low pressure engage. Now with mobs like VS and Trak this time could be much shorter, you could start the timer at 20 minutes instead of 2 hours and most of it would never get used, but if people did want shots, they could get them without drama if they were prepared. Yes this doesn't address poopsocking, but honestly 1 tracker with 49 camped right next to the mob is not that much different than 50 trackers in my mind, I suppose its 1-5 minutes different depending on your guilds mobilization. At very least for Gods and world dragons you can't address one without the other.

This is just one idea, and I don't believe on its own it would be enough. It could be relatively easily tracked on the raid board by adding a few columns though.

What really needs to be protected here is the ability for anyone to fight a raid mob. During any given cycle at least 1 of Tal/Gore? Naggy, Vox, Maestro(yes players would care), and maybe draco should be left for actual pick up raids. I'm not saying big guilds shouldn't be allowed to attend these either, but they should make it their priority to help out newer players and just have fun. I feel something like this would make the community better in the long run.

Call me a carebear or idiot or whatever, but everyone here needs to realize that regardless of the decision made, it won't automatically save your Velious toys, you need to actually start caring about each other and trying to patch up your old hatred to do that.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

No one cares.
People like you make the community toxic.
People like you make people like me turn toxic.
I have helped plenty of people in game.
Never put grief on anyone.
But when they are gonna call a generalized group of people (that includes me) out in the OP for playing a game I am going to respond to them as I wish.
So it is ok for them to do kinda the opposite of belittle and "Zerg" me but if I belittle them back its all bad?


You have contributed nothing to this thread except your asinine perception of what you think this server is about.
LOL really?
What have you contributed? I do not contribute to forum questing sorry.
The original thread post is exactly what you describe here. An asinine perception of how the OP sees the server. I just see it different.
So what?
No one cares

This guy is obviously a coat tail rider supreme.
Lol this guy is a proven forum warrior.
Whose coat tail am I on?...

[Castigate]

My timing in posting that was very awkward...
:eek:

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

This is exactly what people seem to be trying to forget in all of this. I see plenty of people saying that the current/former rules are the rules we should end up sticking with. I also see a lot of bargaining over what essentially is the minimum we can do to make him happy so that Velious has all the toys we want to play with.

For the very slow who don't truly understand what's at stake in these conversations, get this through your heads already please.

ROGEAN DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK IF IT WOULD KILL THE SERVER, he will release Velious minus raid mobs if we don't actually try to improve things. I mean really try, not this petty fighting over what is/was/could be a monopoly, duopoly, or on the other end socialized pixels. Stop thinking things could go back to the way they were, because if they do I would guess Rogean would be more likely to shut the whole project down than let you continue doing what has been done.

Honestly when TMO comes off suspension I would like to see 2 weeks of no raid content at all on this server, hell start it now. People need to step back and get a little bit of perspective on this shit rather than continuing to pretend it will go away if they ignore it.

Personally I'm a fan of using decay models for how long guilds must wait on different mobs, they dont even have to be the same for every mob and they essentially solve most arguments that come up. For the world dragons and generally agreed less contested mobs it could be 2h 1h 30m 15m 7m30s 3m45s 1m53s free. Sure most of those times beyond 15mins would never get used, but if an up and coming guild wanted a crack at a dragon, and was willing to put in the work, they'd often get a relatively low pressure engage. Now with mobs like VS and Trak this time could be much shorter, you could start the timer at 20 minutes instead of 2 hours and most of it would never get used, but if people did want shots, they could get them without drama if they were prepared. Yes this doesn't address poopsocking, but honestly 1 tracker with 49 camped right next to the mob is not that much different than 50 trackers in my mind, I suppose its 1-5 minutes different depending on your guilds mobilization. At very least for Gods and world dragons you can't address one without the other.

This is just one idea, and I don't believe on its own it would be enough. It could be relatively easily tracked on the raid board by adding a few columns though.

What really needs to be protected here is the ability for anyone to fight a raid mob. During any given cycle at least 1 of Tal/Gore? Naggy, Vox, Maestro(yes players would care), and maybe draco should be left for actual pick up raids. I'm not saying big guilds shouldn't be allowed to attend these either, but they should make it their priority to help out newer players and just have fun. I feel something like this would make the community better in the long run.

Call me a carebear or idiot or whatever, but everyone here needs to realize that regardless of the decision made, it won't automatically save your Velious toys, you need to actually start caring about each other and trying to patch up your old hatred to do that.

I like the cut of your jib.

Part of what I consider necessary, is LOW CS TIME. Ain't no one got time to be babtsitting a 15 year old elf simulator.

So we need EZ rules.

20-40 minute window for clean first kill attempt, if you can muster and execute. If other guild who got last kill is ready, they have to wait.

In other words, every spawn has a 20 minute no-touch period, if >1 guild in zone (set number for how many counts for a guild to be counted in zone, I'm a theoretician not a raid leader dammit). Whoever got last kill has tio give any and all competition to get a clean shot. After 20-40 minutes business as usual.

If a guild wants a kill, they can get a kill. They just have to be able to show up, and then execute.