Necro heal recourse incorrectly dispellable

[Nirgon]

http://eq.magelo.com/spell/2475

I'm well aware PoP broke things in the spell revamp that they quickly fixed.

But don't take my word for it, as I played a wizard in classic, take someone who was a botb necro champion who fought MANY high competition fights against cross server opponents. Such fights that SPECIFICALLY involved this mechanic.




Greetings,

My pal Nirgon brought this to my attention few hours ago. Nice to see people still fighting the good fight.

Before I even give my opinion on this, although ya'll probably don't care I feel my history might persuade you into thinking I might know what I'm talking about.

I played on Rallos Zek for 3 years, 2 of them were playing the Necromancer class, from classic to well into Velious. Rallos Zek as you may or may not know, was a PvP server. Knowing and testing these kind of things meant life or death on that server. Furthermore, not only did I play on Rallos for 3 years, I also won the Necro Best of the Best on Rallos, and placed 3rd server-wide on test. Now, with that being established:

A necromancer COULD NOT I repeat, COULD NOT dispel this DEBUFF from their player character after they have the Pact line on a pet or PC. The very first time I saw this on Red99 I was truly like WTF, but was too lazy to even mention it.

I remember on many accounts thinking "wow let me try to dispel this, why even bother lifetapping a mob when I don't have to lose health to heal my pet by dispelling it?" NEVER WORKED. Not only that, but participating in a BotB with many other necros both on my server and the test server not once did anybody attempt this, because it did not work. And trust me when I say, if it did, people would have used it, because the very strat I used to win the tournament was to UNDEAD DD their pet, that strat would be nullified if they could pact their pet and dispell the debuff by losing 25 mana or whatever Pact+Dispel magic came out to be it just wasn't possible, at least on PvP servers. Another thing to further illustrate my point: One of the favorite items Necro's were after was the Holgresh Elder Beads, which was a right click Eye of Zomm or some shit like that you could cast on.. for the very purpose of Vexing (or Bonds of Death) this NPC clickly to get your health back from healing your pet, and other people. They would not have been so wanted by necros if Necros could just dispell the DEBUFF Pact of Shadow puts on the necro.

Hope that helps.


Thx a bunch, keep it classic.

[Nirgon]

Bump:

Willing to change?

Hoping the not dispellable flag is just a quick switch from a 0 to a 1 or similar.

[nilbog]

Wasn't this addressed in the last patch?

No.

Without getting too technical, the only thing that was broken about the bond of death line was the client side debuff icon on the target. Even though the target couldn't see the icon, they could still dispell it. However, if they did dispell it, their buffs would get out of whack on the client side until they zoned.

That's all we fixed.

If there is something wrong, will need Alecta as he did the last work on it.

[Nirgon]

Talking about the pact of shadow/shadowbond spells

[chief]

need proof not just some hotshots memory

[Alecta]

Yar, I stumbled across this while testing the pvp dispell aspects and mentioned that it was broken.


Also, it seems the necro HoT Dark Empathy currently lets you dispel the component on the necromancer, while it continues to heal the target. At the high end this allows for 500 hps heals for 40 mana. Is this classic / desired?

I think so. Could be addressed again.

And if dispelling the drain while keeping the HoT is classic, that's fine then. I just wanted to raise the point.

[Nirgon]

@#1 you want the recourse that hurts the necro either not dispellable or not visible. If you are in the not visible camp you will want having full buffs to block the injury effect. Personally I'd go with the visible but not dispellable.

If you've fixed the vamp curse/bond line I will have to let Lethdar know.

[Nirgon]

Bringing this up for fix again regarding heal recourse dispel.

Should not be able to dispel.

[Scrubosaur]

Looking over the spell effects of the recourse it does look like there was a resist modifier for pvp thus the reason for the necromancer quoted in the post not being able to remember it dispellable (played on a pvp server). Personally I used this strategy while pet tanking all the time as well as during raids healing two different people because different level recourses didn't stack. Looks like it was later changed in spell data to a different effect thus not being able to be dispelled.

[Potus]

Originally you could simply click the debuff off. Verant saw this and fixed it.

Then people realized you could dispel it. Verant eventually fixed that as well. Cannot remember what era though.

Probably somewhere in the patch history.

[Nirgon]

Maybe you ignored the Hijinks post where he explained how this worked.

He won the necro botb you know on RZ and here, might know somethin :).

[Potus]

Maybe you ignored the Hijinks post where he explained how this worked.

He won the necro botb you know on RZ and here, might know somethin :).

I didn't ignore it. He's not remembering correctly. You could for a time dispel it. It got patched later. Ask the Casters forum here. Other Necros will tell you the same.

Also I'm agreeing with you, it should not be dispellable (eventually). Cannot remember what time frame, though :)

[baalzy]

If your only proof is the quoting of a necro who played on the PvP server then... well sorry but that isn't good enough to change blue (maybe red though). There were differences between how spells worked between the PvP and PvE servers and without more solid proof to the contrary I think you're just crusading for Nirgons version of Classic.

[Nirgon]

Baalzy - 57 Gnocro
Baalz - 35 Ikscro


O?

[Daldaen]

http://web.archive.org/web/20010911161306/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=4312

That Necromancer healing guide just mentions lifetapping, no mention of dispelling the recourse.

[Nirgon]

Obviously.

[Supaskillz]

It appears that the burden of proof is always on those saying current mechanic is wrong. I personally would like to see the burden of proof lay on the side of the abusive mechanic. Dispelling this rebuff is extremely op, I think we should have to see solid proof that it was this way at this point in timeline.

In addition it is quite difficult to prove such a mechanic did not exist if it did not. Would have to find someone post that they tried to dispel it but it did not work which seems unlikely.

[Nirgon]

I duo'd with an enchanter on a necro I geared up here... I mean you gotta be kidding me it was so broken. Give the enchanter a mana (ya I know its manna robe until later into velious) robe.

[Potus]

Here you go, took me a whopping 30 seconds to find (http://web.archive.org/web/20010611140712/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=480):

"INTERESTING FACT, By Ajent smith (1/28/2001)

Any spells of this type can be used to freely affect other players, just cast it on your target, and click your icon to cancel it...you lose no life, they gain it...pretty handy 80 point heal for 10m..who says necros aren't any good in groups =p Ajent Smith Lanys "



And later being able to dispel it. (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6188)


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.

[Potus]

Holy shit, you've already posted a thread about this topic and had people post this exact evidence? (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82331&page=3)

Nirgon a complete fraud that's wasting everyone's time? What a surprise.

[Supaskillz]

Looks like good evidence to me. Necros op

[Potus]

Oh yeah Necros super OP now. Get 30 necros to cast Shadowbond on a tank and then dispel themselves. Farm all the raid mobs.

[Nirgon]

This was broken during a spell revamp (known) in 2002 and then quickly fixed.

If you can't figure out how a necro (also with a charmed pet) healing an enchanter for free with a mana robe duo'ing is broken and OP.... you have no grasp of EQ game mechanics.

I never said it was good for making necros main tank healers.

If you think you know the necromancer class better than Zyrino... now its obvious you do not.

Really sad you think necros could click this off themselves until Planes of Power.

Stop trolling bugs, I understand you want broken mechanics that make things covenient for you but its very dishonest.

Made you an RNF post, please direct your angst to the appropriate forum section: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1419461#post1419461

[Potus]

This was broken during a spell revamp (known) in 2002 and then quickly fixed.

Where is proof?


If you can't figure out how a necro (also with a charmed pet) healing an enchanter for free with a mana robe duo'ing is broken and OP.... you have no grasp of EQ game mechanics.


Proof?


If you think you know the necromancer class better than Zyrino... now its obvious you do not.

Shameful appeal to authority. He's not the end-all arbiter of what actually happened. You have to post facts and evidence here. Which you sorely lack.


Really sad you think necros could click this off themselves until Planes of Power.


Never said that. Where did I say so?


Stop trolling bugs, I understand you want broken mechanics that make things covenient for you but its very dishonest.

Made you an RNF post, please direct your angst to the appropriate forum section: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1419461#post1419461

LOLOL This is great. You're accusing me of what you are doing. I am having so much fun here.

[Colgate]

yeah man i'll have to agree with the random guy who is often wrong about everything else he writes instead of the guy who won the best of the best on a pvp server with the class at hand

wrap this shit up bros

[Nirgon]

Please learn to use the correct sections of this forum:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1419461#post1419461

[Potus]

I can emptyquote, too.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.


June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.

[Nirgon]

Someone who knows EverQuest realizes they revamped the spell system during PoP and added a visible recourse effect to this line which could incorrectly be removed by dispel. It was quickly remedied.

How about taking out your mad on the Freeport militia brew?

[SamwiseRed]

anyone who thinks this should be in-game whether classic or not is an idiot. clearly a game-breaking bug. sheez use common sense people.

[Potus]

Game breaking bug? This is necro heals we're talking about. LOL. What encounter is being exploited by this?

It's classic. Sorry. Necros commonly used it on raids to sometimes spot heal. That's why Stalking Probes/Holgresh Elder Beads were sought after. You'd lich, give people heals, then dispel it.

Look, strategy guide, right here (http://wiki.project1999.com/Sesserdrix%27s_All_in_One_Necromancer_Strategy_Gui de#Section_4:_Grouping_As_A_Necromancer)

7) You are a patch-healer. Use spells like Shadowbond and Shadow Compact to deliver a smooth flow of heals onto the target. This spell line costs very little mana, and can help alleviate the amount of healing the Healer must do. If you keep your first Buff Slot open, you can even Cancel Magic the negative recourse of the spell, creating some very mana efficient patch healing.

[Vile]

What about the BoD spell line.. if it's casted on a player and they dispell it.. I still get the regen? Those should be tied together, no?

*Not sure if this is classic or anything -- just curious...

[Nirgon]

That's why Stalking Probes/Holgresh Elder Beads were sought after. You'd lich, give people heals, then dispel it.



Lol people would vexing the beads dude... you HAD to vexing the eye of zomm to be able to heal yourself for the damage the recourse was doing to you.

Hopefully the DUH bus just hit you.

And I hope you weren't leaving out the part of how people would vexing the beads in your description on purpose. Like wow lol. Or did you just try to use something people did and didn't know what your were talking about and shot yourself in the foot. I think I know what you just did. Gonna be hard to come back from dis 1.

Edit: lol just read his post. You'd make an eye of zomm, *blank*, then dispel the recourse off yourself? What!? Why did you think they had to make the eye of zomm!?

[Potus]

Lol people would vexing the beads dude... you HAD to vexing the eye of zomm to be able to heal yourself for the damage the recourse was doing to you.


Oh really? Were you a necro?

No, you're vexing because you've got Lich on and you can't lifetap the raid mobs which resist taps.

Seriously, as someone that played Nec since beta this is just too fucking funny. You know literally nothing about this game, it's pathetic. Also way to again ignore evidence posted.

Edit: Also, before you go WHY DO YOU HAVE LICH ON, because I know you're dense and will try to grasp at anything to save face, it's so that you can manadump or cast DoTs or refresh people's DMF when it gets dispelled.

[Potus]

What about the BoD spell line.. if it's casted on a player and they dispell it.. I still get the regen? Those should be tied together, no?

*Not sure if this is classic or anything -- just curious...

If the target dispels, they don't have the damage dot on them anymore, but the Necro still gets the heals.

[Nirgon]

Zyrino's post outlines that you would dot drain the eye to get hp back which is why the beads were popular. If you couldn't dispel the recourse you would have to.

:confused:

[Supaskillz]

Something doesn't have to make you be able to duo a dragon to be overpowered. This make necros actually much better group healers than shamans(non 60) and druids b/c their heals cost almost no mana and they still add substantial dps to the group as well as utility.

I agree with Samwise here, but I know the goal of the devs is to replicate classic mechanics and this is likely to stay in if there is evidence to support it being in game.

[tristantio]

I dug through old notes and posts when I first discovered this, and other than Nigorns friends memory found nothing to confirm (it is currently implemented correctly) - not a nec lookin to help himself, find my thread on FD to confirm :)

[Nirgon]

Still hasn't answered why'd they'd need the beads to vexing/bond if they coulda just dispelled/clicked the recourse off themselves the whole time?

[tristantio]

sometimes the first tick hits and drains 100 hp, combined with lich on a non iks, you'd need to tap some life every 30 sec or so - since most mob are full Mr immune, beads make sense

[Potus]

Still hasn't answered why'd they'd need the beads to vexing/bond if they coulda just dispelled/clicked the recourse off themselves the whole time?

Answered in my post. Nice try.


No, you're vexing because you've got Lich on and you can't lifetap the raid mobs which resist taps.

Edit: Also, before you go WHY DO YOU HAVE LICH ON, because I know you're dense and will try to grasp at anything to save face, it's so that you can manadump or cast DoTs or refresh people's DMF when it gets dispelled.

Nirgon bug report flawed, knows it's flawed, is pretending he doesn't understand issues now. Shameless attempt to nerf shit for no reason.

[Nirgon]

You had to vexing or bond the eye to get HP back efficiently, that is why it is valuable. You think every necro in the Velious era was dumb enough on every server not to know you could just dispel it? Heh.

You don't know more than the guy who won the necro botb using the strategy that (won the botb) involved using this line to heal their pets.

You've shot yourself in the foot by mentioning the beads. Rofl.


That's why Stalking Probes/Holgresh Elder Beads were sought after. You'd lich, give people heals, then dispel it.


Make eye of zomm... dispel yourself? What!?


Seriously break down and explain this statement. Zyrino explains it CORRECTLY.


Another thing to further illustrate my point: One of the favorite items Necro's were after was the Holgresh Elder Beads, which was a right click Eye of Zomm or some shit like that you could cast on.. for the very purpose of Vexing (or Bonds of Death) this NPC clickly to get your health back from healing your pet, and other people. They would not have been so wanted by necros if Necros could just dispell the DEBUFF Pact of Shadow puts on the necro.


Thx for playing forumquest.

[Potus]

Haha you're so angry. I have the patch message with a date. Working as intended and classic.

[Nirgon]

Your version as presented:
Step 1: summon eye
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Dispel yourself

Anyone reading this knows you are dead forum meat bud. Thx for playin'.

[Supaskillz]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ

[baalzy]

Your version as presented:
Step 1: summon eye
Step 2: ????
Step 3: Dispel yourself

Anyone reading this knows you are dead forum meat bud. Thx for playin'.

You realize that's not what he said, right?

You're liching, you're shadowbonding (which always hits you for at least 1 tick). You dispel the recourse and then you BoD or Vex the eye to make up for the HP loss from your lich (-14 to -28 hp /tick if using demi lich) and the single tick of shadowbond.

Oh really? Were you a necro?

No, you're vexing because you've got Lich on and you can't lifetap the raid mobs which resist taps.



His first post didn't make it terribly clear, especially if you're not used to playing a necro, but he did clarify what he meant.


Anyways, continue. I tried searching for evidence one way or the other and couldn't find anything outside a casters realm link where a guy says that you can click-off the recourse (which Potus already posted somewhere in this thread).

[Nirgon]

Ya all of the botb necros that won their servers and competed in finals had no idea you could just click off the recourse. How stupid they all were.

[Freakish]

I see patch notes supporting the fact you could dispel the recourse.
I see hearsay that you could not dispell it, by word of mouth from people who played back then.
Documented vs undocumented.

I'm going with patch notes saying it was dispellable.

[Nirgon]

Would be good to get this fixed next patch. Easy enough to flag the recourse as cannot be dispelled.

From there we can move on to dispel mechanics :)!

(Cancel magic removing any spell in 1 cast = not classic sirs)

[Erati]

(Cancel magic removing any spell in 1 cast = not classic sirs)

what is suppose to happen?

[koros]

Nirgon, this could be dispelled. Citing a friend as an absolute authority because he won the necro botb is a ridiculous logical fallacy.

Prior to the "recourse" effects being added, you'd get a flashing icon with the same name as the spell "Bond of death","Pact of Shadow", etc, just doing hp in the opposite direction as it was doing to the target.

[Nirgon]

No you couldn't dispel the recourse effect.

That is, unless every single necro who won a botb was a moron.

This is like saying you could dispel res effects for all of classic through Velious and every cleric was a moron for not doing it.

Sorry koros :/.

[koros]

No you couldn't dispel the recourse effect.

That is, unless every single necro who won a botb was a moron.

This is like saying you could dispel res effects for all of classic through Velious and every cleric was a moron for not doing it.

Sorry koros :/.

How would that supposed strategy even work with banishment of shadows being able to blow up a pet?

[Nirgon]

They could only undead nuke.

Thrilla/Zyrino can best explain this and might be semi active around here still

You absolutely could not dispel a recourse effect from the necromancer pact line.

It's not that he's a "friend", we barely speak and definitely don't play other games together. He was a necro botb champion who offered his knowledge to resolve this.

[koros]

Monk pet (or spec pet for that matter) doesn't con green to a lvl 60

It worked on mobs up to level 50. Or maybe 51

[tristantio]

Nirgon, not to say you're untrustworthy, but where is your "friend" and what proof do we have?

I could find the name of a botb winner and "quote" them for any changes I have a personal vendetta against just as easily.

Can your botb friends post here with proof of their characters?

[Nirgon]

We had images of it, Zyrino the Defiler who won Rallos and went on to do very well at the championships.

I'd rather it came from him than me to be honest.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/a2btx5.jpg

Recognition from other players here and discussion of how he got slid a little luck against Nilear of RZ (who might have also won):
http://www.project1999.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-54029.html


More images
http://home.arcor.de/neric/BoTB%20Finals/03_skel_on_spectre.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/neric/BoTB%20Finals/12_Zyrino_tapping.jpg
http://home.arcor.de/neric/BoTB%20Finals/13_Zyrino_wins.jpg

[koros]

Here's reference:


SPELL COMMENTS
NECRO BOTB, By Bronchite (6/19/2001)

Im a 55necro that competed in the necro BotB of Karana, I killed my first opponent but i changed tactic and died at the 2nd round but thats not the point. The point is that this spell is absolutely a crap in the BotB, it kills the others pet right away. the final was a fight between 2 60s, one had the spell, the other didnt have it, so guess who won. this spell should be forbiden in the BotB

[Nirgon]

Check images above for both parties having pets tho.

Might have to try and phone in the big necro guy (think he gone till Velious tho).

Edit: PM'd the damn Defiler himself

[koros]

Explain how under any circumstances how healing your pet is going to beat a necro casting

Trudiciation for (.66 * 1100) and touch of night for (.66 * 720) while you take damage from at least one tick of the heal.

[Nirgon]

Necro without pet fighting necro with pet -> efficiency stops mattering.. other necro gets butchered. It was MUCH harder to channel a spell in pvp on live versus here.

And that damn monk pet would be serving you a big plate of interrupt/rape.

Entire goal was remove other guys pet and have your up -> win.

[koros]

Except in your scenario both pets are alive for a bit. pet is both rootable or distractable from your pet. You're not gonna win this one.

[Nirgon]

Dispel root -> pet is on your pet again killing it.

Plus? Why root an enemy pet while its trying to kill yours? 2 stationary targets fighting.

I saw lots of other necros try to dot and drain down enemies... they were left petless and dead quickly afterwards.

[koros]

So you're supposing that one necro is able to get spells off, and the other necro is not for some reason.

Total time to cast trucidation + touch of night was 5.9 + insta cast click ( 0 if they were allowed, otherwise + 2) = 11.9 - 13.9 seconds.

Somehow one necro has time to enact all these other strategies, but the direct approach of killing them and healing yourself is unfeasible? Also monk pet couldn't bash for interrupts.

[Nirgon]

Bash wasn't the only thing that interrupted back in the day.

Having a pet quad attack you was a great way to get interrupted (basically every single time) with classic channeling mechanics.

Here's another point: you aren't casting a pet with another one on you with classic channeling either. You aren't winning a 1v1 without one at that point.

(I've left channeling alone for now because it.... well its one of the last things on my list. Makes charming shit way harder... esp pets with VoG/buffed-Shissar lol.)

[koros]

The fundamental issue is this. How do you suppose you kill a necro pet in < 14 seconds without banishment of shadows?

[Nirgon]

You try to kill it as fast as possible but it came down to efficiency at the end of most fights.

With the player running out of resources first losing their pet and dying.

Hopefully the Defiler will rear his bald and very classic head.

[NegaStoat]

June 5th, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------
** Spells **

- Fixed magician summoned focus earrings
- Characters on horses are no longer immune to Ignite Bones
- The Shadowbond series of spells can no longer be dispelled by the Necromancer

Close thread.

considering that Luclin launched on Dec 4, 2001, and that this was patched on June of 2002, I'm left with the conclusion that this will always be an effect that can be dispelled on P1999. Which makes me feel kinda good.

If it WAS patched on P1999, players would eagerly point their fingers at Monks and rightfully ask for Luclin patches to be applied too. The can of worms wouldn't end once opened, for every class that might have received a buff or nerf from Luclin on.

[Nirgon]

I'm not asking because they broke and then fixed this with the 2002 spell system.

I'm asking because it was never this way classic through Velious. Period.

[Potus]

I'm not asking because they broke and then fixed this with the 2002 spell system.

I'm asking because it was never this way classic through Velious. Period.

And your proof of this is....?

That'd probably be in the patch history.

[Nirgon]

Yeah its in the patch history. The one you keep mentioning. They incorrectly flagged it dispellable (probably the default value) and then fixed it.

I'll await the Defiler's return (to repeat himself? maybe to talk about banishment but that's unrelated imo) but this is a quick and easy fix.

[koros]

You try to kill it as fast as possible but it came down to efficiency at the end of most fights.

With the player running out of resources first losing their pet and dying.

Hopefully the Defiler will rear his bald and very classic head.

Nirgon, it's really simple... You cannot possibly survive Trucidation + 1-2 Touch of nights being directed on you while you kill a pet with non banishment of shadows spells. You can't kill a pet with damaging spells faster those taps can be cast.

On top of that, banishment of shadows does work on pets. Which negates the pet healing thing entirely.

So this supposed airtight evidence doesn't even make sense. Either your friends memory was wrong, or players of that era had no idea how to correctly fight the botb. Either way, it's hardly evidence.

Top that with the patch notes, and every other effect of the era sans res effects being dispellable, you aren't providing much of a case.

Additionally, I had a necro and I remember dispelling it. Necros had ridiculously low hp in that era and didn't like being buffless/without lich, so it probably wasn't the most commonly used group tactic.

[Nirgon]

Do you know that trucidation was allowed?

And..

You think they won't drain you back during trucidation/2 touch of nights? These weren't clueless necros here.

Losing the pet meant losing the fight... every time. That isn't to say they'd just stand there and ignore other survivability.

[koros]

How would that be possible for them to do if they were busy nuking your pet dead?

[Nirgon]

Fight starts

I undead nuke your pet or put vexing on it even

You drain me

I now drain you back and forth while your pet is at an hp disadvantage and probably dies

Then you die when my pet is up your ass (you can root it sure, but dispel->root->dispel->root you will be taking pet hits... and getting actually interrupted with classic channeling)


Edit: If they drained you.. you just drain their pet.

[koros]

725 one time on a spectre is going to be a bit less than 30% of its hp. It's going to last a long time with another pet beating on it. Trucidation is going to leave you at ~15-30% of your hp if you're lucky. In which case, if we're gonna just trade taps, i'd spam my pet to ignore the other pet and attack you. You'll die in a few rounds. I don't see how this negates what becomes an easy win.

[Potus]

Yeah its in the patch history. The one you keep mentioning. They incorrectly flagged it dispellable (probably the default value) and then fixed it.

I'll await the Defiler's return (to repeat himself? maybe to talk about banishment but that's unrelated imo) but this is a quick and easy fix.

That's not in the patch history.

Can you please provide evidence of these spells being broken and Sony having to patch them all?

Can you provide any evidence except your friend's hearsay?

[Nirgon]

Where's the patch note that says "we broke it this patch"?

Lol.

Esta muey funneys.

[Potus]

Where's the patch note that says "we broke it this patch"?

Lol.

Esta muey funneys.

Or "A series of spells were incorrectly changed and we're reverting them back" anything like that would have a forum post, a developer comment, would be talked about in the actual patch.

Then again I played a Necro since beta so I know you're wrong.

[Nirgon]

Ya and Zyrino played and won a server botb and almost the whole show... using these exact mechanics..

I'll take him over you... at least he would agree necros were strong in PvP classic through Velious.

Some people were making the corpses, other people were the corpses. Sorry you were on the wrong side of that. Again, another reason to listen to his understanding of game mechanics.

[Potus]

Yeah like everything else you post, I'm pretty sure that's bullshit too. People banished pet and nuked in BotB. They didn't heal pets lol.

[Nirgon]

I'm spot on with the necro botb strat with keeping the pet alive/ killing theirs. Just adds to the humor for me.

Take up your EQ Mac questions with Hobart and the implementation here with Sundawg.

As far as item loot maybe you can score a Brad interview. All of these things are fact and classic.

I haven't had someone this clueless on my nuts since college and at least she'd do my laundry for me.

[NegaStoat]

I'm not asking because they broke and then fixed this with the 2002 spell system.

I'm asking because it was never this way classic through Velious. Period.

No. No, I'm sad to say you are mistaken. On Kunark launch week back when Iksar were bugged to appear as naked Human males, I made an Iksar necro like many other unwashed scum and checked out the nearby noob zones and Cabilis.

I DISTINCTLY recall having to heal numerous times with friends in Lake of Ill omen at level 20+ on my tanking Ranger friend (lol) pulling crap to the shore. I constantly used Cancel Magic to remove the debuff during that time.

Go fishing for your proof that that through Kunark it could never be dispelled, and post it. Because you won't be able to. I healed with those spells for months until I grew bored and went back to my bard.

[Nirgon]

That why a botb necro champ says otherwise?

:/

And the entire botb tourney of necros healing and not easily removing it with a cancel? Heh.

Why didn't you win that botb? You seem to have had the real strat.

I think we also proved this spell didn't even have a visible recourse effect to remove during at least classic-Kunark...

Where's all the comments on "you can just dispel the negative effect no problem"?

[Treats]

Ya'll derpin.

Before recourses were added even if it was able to be dispeled (I don't think it was), it would have been REMOVED from both targets.

Dispel Necro -> Target loses heal
Dispel Target -> Necro loses DoT Damage

[Scrubosaur]

The reason there aren't many posts regarding the dispelling of the recourse is that many players back then didn't understand mechanics, didn't think necros as healers, and used HoT dots so didn't think there was a need to dispel the effect. The reason nerfs and buffs happen is that people think out the box so things get fixed. With the lack of hard info for a bunch of classic effects/spawns/loots its no surprise that we can't find a flat out statement that the effect can be removed with dispel but that doesn't mean it wasn't so.

[Nirgon]

Ya'll derpin.

Before recourses were added even if it was able to be dispeled (I don't think it was), it would have been REMOVED from both targets.

Dispel Necro -> Target loses heal
Dispel Target -> Necro loses DoT Damage


Buyin it

[koros]

Someone check an old spdat.eff, is there a 'Dispellable?' field? Res effects would definitely have it.

[Velerin]

This back and forth basically comes down to Documented patch note vs. BotB necro pvp experience.

Problem with discussing this regarding pvp is: Even if you could use this heal in pvp you probably wouldn't because the technique requires good usage of buff order. Anyone that's ever played eq pvp knows the importance of buff order, junk buffs, etc. so you can dispel dots w/o hitting your good buffs as well as protecting your good buffs deep down.

If I saw someone using this I'd toss a splurt or whatever knowing it'd end up under all their buffs requiring them to dispel everything to get it off.

[Nirgon]

Would be way more talking about how this was dispellable if it was true.

Flip the dispellable flag as an easy fix and lock thread plox. Tryna wrap these up and move on to Velious.

[Potus]

Ya'll derpin.

Before recourses were added even if it was able to be dispeled (I don't think it was), it would have been REMOVED from both targets.

Dispel Necro -> Target loses heal
Dispel Target -> Necro loses DoT Damage

Necromancer spells never worked this way ever.

[koros]

Necromancer spells never worked this way ever.

Correct. If a necro lost bond of death or vexing when the mob got dispelled, there would have been a lot more vocal necros...

[Fazlazen]

Here's reference:


SPELL COMMENTS
NECRO BOTB, By Bronchite (6/19/2001)

Im a 55necro that competed in the necro BotB of Karana, I killed my first opponent but i changed tactic and died at the 2nd round but thats not the point. The point is that this spell is absolutely a crap in the BotB, it kills the others pet right away. the final was a fight between 2 60s, one had the spell, the other didnt have it, so guess who won. this spell should be forbiden in the BotB

Haha, that is me! (Bronchite)

[koros]

Haha, that is me! (Bronchite)

Lol that's awesome. Do you remember making that comment?

[Fazlazen]

Lol that's awesome. Do you remember making that comment?

I do not remember the comment. I remember the botb tho. Can you link the webpage where that comment can be found please?

[pasi]

Correct. If a necro lost bond of death or vexing when the mob got dispelled, there would have been a lot more vocal necros...

Additionally, the heal being tied to the dot would cease working in the event of mob death if that were the case. This was never the case.

Anyhow, not gonna repeat myself on this topic. Been discussed too much as is.

[koros]

I do not remember the comment. I remember the botb tho. Can you link the webpage where that comment can be found please?

https://web.archive.org/web/20011125023927/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=508

[Nirgon]

The part I'm buying to be sure is the no recourse part and it would just hurt the necro in question.

Whatever the case is, 1 person would have at least tried to dispel this visible and pretty damaging effect (esp on people not decked out.. aka most people for the era).

It would be so much easier to find a comment about "just dispel the damaging portion" at least for a few patches if it was possible during classic-vanilla.

Not sure why Zyrino/the rest of the botb necros are being counted as entirely clueless. The whole fight hinged on this mechanic. There's just no way people wouldn't have tried to dispel the damage from the recouse for a paltry 30 mana.

Maybe I should have promoted item loot and a green con see invis guard after this was fixed instead of before? :(

Y u h8 the classic?

Edit: big ups to Faz, I see you

[koros]

There was a damn recourse. Do you think bond of death or vexing mordinia didn't have a recourse? It was just called "Bond of Death" when it was on the necro, but it healed them.

[Nirgon]

Forget where that theory of no recourse came from.

Bond obviously did and I'm certain of it from 1v1 pvp encounters.

I'm just not seeing all the posts in the classic wayback digs saying "oh yeah just dispel it" for the pact line.

People WOULD have tried to dispel this (like how we noticed you could here...). Just like I don't see people talking about how you could dispel res effects.

The classic healing guide mentions 0 about this. The wiki is just promoting this bug.

[baalzy]

Some devil advocating:

How widely known was it for people to use Soulfires to have 5 instant click CHs on a tank?
How widely known was it for people to use Midnight Mallet to lock aggro onto the tank?

Pretty sure these worked the same way they're used now, but noone realized it.

[Nirgon]

1. Soulfire I'll give you but guards here are way too easy because of resists. Still wouldn't slow the peeps here down. Further, people were super busy within a year of going clueless into these expacs and figuring everything out. That last point is a minor detractor because if soul fire being used on the tank was known at the time.. they'd definitely make time out of their busy schedule to blow these like champs (same with Trak teeth).

2. Midnight mallet... the item recharge bug was not widely known and when it became more wide spread, it was quickly fixed. I'm in the camp it shouldn't exist here on grounds it wasn't widely used so its not part of the classic experience in my book. I cannot name ONE guild that used this recharge bug for raiding. That said, I'm not getting anywhere near a heated bug-section-beard-quest about it.


If this or res effects were dispellable, there'd be easily findable shit posted.

That said? Get 2 staves of undead legions, a necro and enchanter with mana robe and have fun DESTROYING HS with this. When you are done, you can just leave them up... hopefully you choose some NPCs in a more tucked away area to hold your staves until you are ready to tear it up again. The basically free necro healing without holgresh beads + a few hours of this and you will get my point. It's not for main tank healing.. but raid healing otherwise in AoE situations or recovery after rezzes... way too powerful. Healing a shaman with a necro for instance atm without needing beads/casting expensive vexing... way OP even if it doesn't insta-gib raid mobs or w/e.

[koros]

1. Soulfire I'll give you but guards here are way too easy because of resists. Still wouldn't slow the peeps here down. Further, people were super busy within a year of going clueless into these expacs and figuring everything out. That last point is a minor detractor because if soul fire being used on the tank was known at the time.. they'd definitely make time out of their busy schedule to blow these like champs (same with Trak teeth).

2. Midnight mallet... the item recharge bug was not widely known and when it became more wide spread, it was quickly fixed. I'm in the camp it shouldn't exist here on grounds it wasn't widely used so its not part of the classic experience in my book. I cannot name ONE guild that used this recharge bug for raiding. That said, I'm not getting anywhere near a heated bug-section-beard-quest about it.


If this or res effects were dispellable, there'd be easily findable shit posted.

That said? Get 2 staves of undead legions, a necro and enchanter with mana robe and have fun DESTROYING HS with this. When you are done, you can just leave them up... hopefully you choose some NPCs in a more tucked away area to hold your staves until you are ready to tear it up again. The basically free necro healing without holgresh beads + a few hours of this and you will get my point. It's not for main tank healing.. but raid healing otherwise in AoE situations or recovery after rezzes... way too powerful. Healing a shaman with a necro for instance atm without needing beads/casting expensive vexing... way OP even if it doesn't insta-gib raid mobs or w/e.

It's really not OP at all... charm is OP, ch is OP, slow is OP. If it's not classic and you can prove it that's one thing, but FAR FAR from OP

[Potus]

The reason not a lot of people knew about this was that it wasn't that powerful to begin with, and the place you'd use it at (raids) you're likely to be super bored and swimming in mana to begin with.

Necros have insanely high mana regen, and you can cast Bond of Death and 2 Shadowbonds and lose no health. It's not a huge advantage to dispel it if you're just sitting around twitching and waiting for people to get DMF dispelled.

Calling it OP is just dumb. Go have a 60 necro use it on you and tell me where the OP shit is.

[Thrilla]

So what are we arguing bout here?

I don't pretend to be the necro master, but I will say it was my main class pretty much for Kunark through Velious and I did manage to win the botb on the red server, and do pretty well (top 3) on the test server with all the winners were copied to

1) Banishment of shadows did not work in PvP, at least it didn't kill Necro pets or that would have been the strat as opposed to undead nuking
2) Seems there is no hard evidence either way, but I'd have to think anybody who played a necro during live had to have at some point thought of dispelling the debuff pact of shadow/shadowbound places on you- I guarantee you I did and I don't think it could be dispelled. Not once in my journeys did I ever see a necro heal their pet then dispell the debuff, they'd heal then vex.. why on earth would you vex to get your health back and blow 495 mana when you can just cast a 50 mana dispell?
3) Nec BOTB strat was generally who could end the fight with a pet after the initial pets were killed with undead DD's, the person who lost to me on Rallos tried to heal his pet, ended up healing mine instead and the health he lost from healing my pet set him back in the fight and a good reason he lost, I'd have to give him the credit to think he would dispell it if it was dispellable

Who knows maybe it was dispellable on blue servers and not pvp servers but to think not 1 person on a 2000 player population server that was structured around PvP didn't try this trick at some point is just flat out dumb

[Nirgon]

Do the right thing!

:)

[koros]

I'm gonna log onto live later and try banishment of shadows on a necro pet. If it works (and it will) can you guys stfu and admit you have no evidence?

[Nirgon]

Heal recourses flagged as cannot be dispelled plox?

[Nirgon]

I'm gonna log onto live later and try banishment of shadows on a necro pet. If it works (and it will) can you guys stfu and admit you have no evidence?

Think banishment type spells were disallowed at botbs.

Here's the mage rules


Mage Combatant Rules

The owner of the account must play the Magician, no “Ringers” will be allowed.

There is no entry fee for this event, and the only prizes will be titles awarded to the winners.

Both magicians will be summoned out of the zone, and summoned back before the start of the match to clear any previous bugs with permanent spell effects.

Both magicians, once debuffed and resummoned shall be asked if they are ready for the match to start. Once the match starts, a timer will start of 30 seconds that the magicians are allowed to cast on themselves, and quickly rememorize the spells. During this time pet spells and any non-offensive spells will be allowed, pets will not be allowed to attack until after the 30 seconds.

The judge of the match will count down on every 5-second interval until the time is up, at that time offensive spell casting maybe used. Mana used for buffs will not be restored. The offensive spells start at the 30-second mark regardless if mage is ready for the next stage.

An explosion and a verbal statement will start the 30-second period, and also the start of the match. A single “Fault” will be allowed (Casting before the explosion), and an event warning (not an official warning) be given to the offender. A second “Fault” per match is disqualification.

Both magicians shall stay on the tiled area at all times, you may not stand on or behind the firepots. You may not stand on or in the throne. Binding in the ring and gating to a different part of the ring is no longer allowed in any VI Event.

The 60th lvl Banishment spell has been disallowed for this event.


This was linked by Ambrotos for the mage botb here. I don't have the live necromancer notes, can't find em.

[Nirgon]

I looked at the EQ trilogy client spdat.eff (I think this is the right file) and don't see anything about a shadowbond/pact of shadow recourse even existing.

I think this concludes for me that before the PoP recourse change that there shouldn't even be a debuff to remove. Someone mentioned that here and I'm not sure if there was a visible recourse on the necro or not. Mayhaps someone more versed with that file can correct me if I'm wrong.

I forwarded it to koros and cleared my pm box (97% full ugh) with the download link to the file though (double ugh). If he can post the link here before I get home today, great. If not, I'll edit this post with a link to it.

[koros]

I looked at the EQ trilogy client spdat.eff (I think this is the right file) and don't see anything about a shadowbond/pact of shadow recourse even existing.

I think this concludes for me that before the PoP recourse change that there shouldn't even be a debuff to remove. Someone mentioned that here and I'm not sure if there was a visible recourse on the necro or not. Mayhaps someone more versed with that file can correct me if I'm wrong.

I forwarded it to koros and cleared my pm box (97% full ugh) with the download link to the file though (double ugh). If he can post the link here before I get home today, great. If not, I'll edit this post with a link to it.

As I told you, they didn't exist as separate effects prior to sept 2002. What spells maked as "drain" did, was apply the same spell to the cast with target=self,effect=(-)spelleffect, and the beneficial(?)/detrimental(?) flag reversed.

You cast siphon strength (detrimental=1) on a target which drained their str? You got a (beneficial=1) buff which increased your str with the same duration as the spell you cast.

You cast impart strength (beneficial=1) on your groupmate? you get a (deterimental=1) debuff, etc, etc.

I already explained all this. I'm done with these conversations as of now.

[Nirgon]

Well you see banishments don't appear to be allowed @ botbs.

Just when I thought I was getting somewhere :/.

[Nirgon]

Bump


Also necros are fantastic in groups, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I've been the main healer and mezzer in Seb groups before.


Flag recourse as not dispellable or remove recourse from being visible / taking a buff slot / dispellable