Raid Scene Rage Thread

[Splorf22]

So I have been reading/flaming the various raid scene threads. Let me sum them up for the casual scum reader who doesn't feel like immersing themself into the sea of pseudo-RNF sewage:

Forceful Entry got on the ball first with their 2 hour delay. Strangely, this would seem to hugely benefit them once TMO comes back: they'll get half the mobs, something they did not manage to do pre-TMO-ban, and with significantly less work. Bregan D'Aerthe, as the more or less consensus third guild, realized that this would be quite beneficial to them during TMO's ban and immediately agreed, trumpeting the new era of sharing. But once TMO comes back, they'd really prefer that the 2 hour delay apply for two weeks. Strangely, this would seem to hugely benefit them: they'd get close to one third of the mobs since they wouldn't have to compete against FE/TMO on week three and they can out-zerg/out-track most of the other guilds. The Mystical Order, not being retards with the exception of a few well-known trolls who shall remain nameless to keep this thread out of RNF for a few hours at least, immediately figured out these plays. Their goal is to share a bit here and there to keep Rogean more or less happy, but to give as little as possible to their competitors of the aforementioned guilds. Their strategy seems to be to wait and see. Taken and Azure Guard want a straight up rotation. Strangely this would seem to hugely benefit them: despite having less experience at batphoning and poopsocking and plausibly deniable trains and rushed engages and such then their competitors, they'd get a substantial crack at things.

So, not too surprisingly, everyone is pushing for the rules that benefit them while throwing out a bunch of rhetoric about how TMO is evil. So far nothing close to a consensus has emerged, and I see no reason why one will, if only because FE/IB and BDA are currently enjoying the fruits of TMO's suspension, and if Rogean will really keep TMO raid suspended until they agree to something, then FEIBDA has every incentive to make the negotiations last as long as possible.

What is driving me nuts this whole time is the obvious superiority of server repops to anything that can be negotiated:

Rogean wants fewer petitions and wasted CSR time; repops put other guilds in different zones where its harder to fuck things up. Furthermore, the guides can figure out a repop time in advance when they can all be on and watching rather than 15 different times.
Rogean wants a bit of a spread on loot, and repops give that: its very hard for one guild to run the table, especially since TMO can't train-delay in VP. Empirically, the last repop resulted in a pretty even distribution of mobs.
The zerg guilds who roll with 50+ to trivialize the encounters hate the idea of 'handouts' (defined by them as mobs killed without time pressure regardless of actual mob abilities and level and such); those do not exist during repops
Everyone can compete to their hearts content and it will be real competition to see who can do the encounters as quickly and cleanly as possible, not who can log on their 5th alt the fastest at 5AM.
Server resets have been demonstrated to be extremely classic; variance is extremely not-classic.
Furthermore we now know that Rogean can make a repop happen with a total of 15 lines of GM commands, because it happened this Sunday. If Sirken were to make this a macro, he could make a repop happen in 3-4 seconds. There are zero technical hurdles. It's trivial. It doesn't take away from Velious development or anything else. And its clearly way less work that tackling hundreds of petitions.

All we need is repops and two simple rules: guilds are not allowed to split their forces, and players are not allowed to rotate between camped alts.. Boom, all raid problems solved. It's a win for everyone: the uberguilds get to compete without stepping on each others toes and get a bigger piece of the pie, the guides have less work to do, and the casual scum get a chance at the encounters without camping out alts, poopsocking, batphoning tracking, and all of the other nonsense.

Which brings me to Tinfoil Hat Time, courtesy of Derubael. Rogean is a smart guy and I'm sure he's realized all of the above. So the question is why hasn't he tried it?

OK, I had to get all this off my chest. You may now all flame me.

http://www.flamewarriorsguide.com/Assets/godzilla.jpg

[Derubael]

I'm so glad I clicked refresh before taking a break for the night.

Thx for summing up the days events for us casual scum. No way was I going to sift through 20 pages of talk about pts distribution and rotation discussion.

That being said, I laughed the hardest when you slipped in your repop idea for the last half of the post. :)

As far as repops go, it's kinda like pumping blood into someone who's bleeding out from a mortal wound. Yeah, they aren't going to die, but they're going to keep bleeding until you do something about the wound.

I agree that the occasional repop is not only awesome, fun, and enjoyable, but the reality is it's not something we can do every week or every other week.

[quido]

Trying to combat people using alts is a hopelessly lost cause.

[Funkutron5000]

The 2 hour limit thing was agreed upon only for the 2 weeks during the TMO suspension. We knew it would be roughly rotating between FEIB and TMO when they came back and were not pushing for it to extend.

We really just wanted to make sure we got something off the ground quickly so we could all enjoy the two weeks that lay ahead during the suspension, knowing full well there would be another round of negotiations involved once TMO was coming off suspension.

Thanks for assuming our intentions were the greediest possible, though!

[jaybone]

The 2 hour limit thing was agreed upon only for the 2 weeks during the TMO suspension. We knew it would be roughly rotating between FEIB and TMO when they came back and were not pushing for it to extend.

We really just wanted to make sure we got something off the ground quickly so we could all enjoy the two weeks that lay ahead during the suspension, knowing full well there would be another round of negotiations involved once TMO was coming off suspension.

Thanks for assuming our intentions were the greediest possible, though!

The fact that a guild is allowed on this server that makes EVERYTHING not fun is mind baffling.

[quido]

The fact that a guild is allowed on this server that makes EVERYTHING not fun is mind baffling.

If everything is not fun, what the fuck are you doing here?

[Reguiy]

Regulating how people maneuver during repops or in general isn't a plausible idea imo. Whatever agreement is reached, it needs to be relatively simple and easy to implement and control. If the alt rule is breached in your proposed scenario, then GMs would be sifting through IP addresses and alt names for hours in order to punish the rule breakers.

Personally I feel like the easiest answer to this problem would be to repop mobs randomly every week or so, and prevent them from repopping at any other time. It would spread the loot without having to track or have people training/stalling/etc. But it is not classic at all.

[Splorf22]

You are artificially inflating the number of raid mobs with this proposal

Repops are classic, so whatever. Also it would depend on the details of how it was implemented. And finally, who gives a fuck when we have so many Kunark pixels anyway.

As far as repops go, it's kinda like pumping blood into someone who's bleeding out from a mortal wound. Yeah, they aren't going to die, but they're going to keep bleeding until you do something about the wound.

Imagine you run a prison. What do you think is more effective:

At a random time, you throw a toy into the yard and let them all shank each other to play with it
At a random time, you put 18 different toys into 18 different rooms.

It's pretty clear which strategy will involve less shanking.

Trying to combat people using alts is a hopelessly lost cause.

Your sig leads me to believe you might be slightly biased.

The 2 hour limit thing was agreed upon only for the 2 weeks during the TMO suspension. We knew it would be roughly rotating between FEIB and TMO when they came back and were not pushing for it to extend. Thanks for assuming our intentions were the greediest possible, though!

Your officer Morphius seems to think differently:

While we are all of course interested in promoting the spirit of cooperation amongst all players on this server, as officers of a guild our first interest is of course with our guild members who have worked so hard to put us where we are. Many of you are right, when TMO returns, it is basically FE/IB fighting them for mobs. If we engage in an agreement to open up mobs to the rest of the server, We have nothing to gain and potentially loot to give up.

HOWEVER, after saying this, we are still open to discussion. We are open to keeping the 2 hours delay after a target kill. If there is an interest in going beyond that, I am sure you are going to have to convince us and the leadership of TMO why and present us with an agreement that benefits us all.

That being said, IMO everyone is out for themselves in the end and I really have no problem with it. I just feel making repops the primary method of spawning mobs benefits everyone.

OK THAT IS ENOUGH FOR NOW

[happyhappy]

I'm so glad I clicked refresh before taking a break for the night.

Thx for summing up the days events for us casual scum. No way was I going to sift through 20 pages of talk about pts distribution and rotation discussion.

That being said, I laughed the hardest when you slipped in your repop idea for the last half of the post. :)

As far as repops go, it's kinda like pumping blood into someone who's bleeding out from a mortal wound. Yeah, they aren't going to die, but they're going to keep bleeding until you do something about the wound.

I agree that the occasional repop is not only awesome, fun, and enjoyable, but the reality is it's not something we can do every week or every other week.

Weeklyish Repops are very classic and had been considered in the past by members of the staff, heres posts from 2012-2013 from Rogean and nilbog tossing out ideas how repops could work.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=746947&postcount=1208

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1020826&postcount=107

For those who asked: weekly simulated patch day respawns are still on my agenda and will continue to be worked on amidst velious development.

This idea is neither new, nor just isolated to Loraen's mind.

[zanderklocke]

Personally I feel like the easiest answer to this problem would be to repop mobs randomly every week or so, and prevent them from repopping at any other time. It would spread the loot without having to track or have people training/stalling/etc. But it is not classic at all.

Confused by how this is different from current variance?

[quido]

My bias aside, it's a ridiculous notion and you know this. You should probably stop making non-classic suggestions that require massive amounts of coding/overhead from Rogean.

[Ravager]

I still don't understand why people think there needs to be competition on a PvE server, especially when there's a big server with all the exact same content where competition is hard-coded into the mechanics. I hear they have an exp bonus and no variance too.

[Reguiy]

Confused by how this is different from current variance?

Every mob would repop at the same time every time. It's like repops only mobs do not pop on any other days other than repop days.

Also, I don't think we as a guild have "Taken" a stance on how the raid scene should go. Some of our more vocal members in this whole thing actually are officers who are vehemently against a rotation, as it would discourage competition. One of the unique things about EQ classic (imo) is you can actually compete for mobs.

[Mud]

+1

Simulated patch days (=weekly repops) would give smaller guilds a chance to actually compete. This is especially relevant after Rogean's announcement -- VP will now have to be considered right off the bat by the guilds that compete there. Before, VP would be saved for the end of a repop due to trainers staving off any attempts to kill dragons there.

Simulated patch days/repops are completely classic and was one of the funnest aspects of raiding on live.

[Splorf22]

My bias aside, it's a ridiculous notion and you know this. You should probably stop making non-classic suggestions that require massive amounts of coding/overhead from Rogean.

I'm pretty sure one raid force moving from encounter to encounter is about a million times more classic than a raid force logging from one set of camped out alts to another.

Also it would be extremely obvious from the kill logs if anyone was breaking the rules.

[JayN]

make everything a week spawn or something close, normalize spawn times; if you killed it the previous week/spawn cycle, you may not contend for it the next week/spawn cycle (you must skip one cycle/week).

Very simple actually imho, everything FTE shouts pets and minions dont count for FTE.

So even if one guild goes out and steamrolls everything one week theyll have to wait an entire cycle to compete for those same mobs.

This whole trying to hamstring whomever on top is worthless, stupid and self destructive.

This will allow some competition but will still allow other people to get shots at things.

This does favor the strongest most adaptable guilds but hey, that is why they are in fact the strongest.

[Derubael]

Weeklyish Repops are very classic and had been considered in the past by members of the staff, heres posts from 2012-2013 from Rogean and nilbog tossing out ideas how repops could work.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=746947&postcount=1208

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1020826&postcount=107



This idea is neither new, nor just isolated to Loraen's mind.

Never said it was new, or isolated to splorf, or not supported by the staff.

[reborn649]

I still don't understand why people think there needs to be competition on a PvE server, especially when there's a big server with all the exact same content where competition is hard-coded into the mechanics. I hear they have an exp bonus and no variance too.

Hate to say it, but this^^

I played on VZ a couple years and anytime something spawned, it was an all out war to get first dibs. After a bunch of friends decided to go blue, i tagged along and it was all about who could get to what mob first and down it. We want classic, that's as classic as you can get. A rotation is no different than raid instances in WoW and earning enough points to down XYZ mob next week is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You guys wanted classic EQ and everything your arguing is not viable on a blue server. Go PvP if you wanna stop guilds from killing XYZ mob. If that doesn't sound fun, then figure out a different way to compete.

My point is, we all quit so many MMO's (for most probably WoW), because they became to easy and felt like a handout. At what point do you stop and realize we might be doing the same thing on P99 if end game competition is removed? Mobs like VS/Trak/CT/VP were always super competitive. Could "higher end guilds" back off of Talendor/Fay/Gore/Etc...that makes sense. But don't take all the competition out of the game or were back to easy mode, which will only keep things fun for so long. If you don't believe me, why aren't you still playing the last 10 MMO's you tried out?

We cant love EQ because its hard and then complain its hard down the road...no matter what is making it difficult at the time. Guilds, disagreements with camps, cant get X npc to spawn after camping it 24hrs straight, etc...

[Troubled]

words bashing all guilds

Shutup. Heavily in favor of lots of guilds getting shots at raid mobs if they're willing to put forth SOME sort of effort.

[Pint]

do the inline gm commands reset the current mob windows?

[Barkingturtle]

Sometimes with a mess this gnarly the only sanitary thing to do is wipe it clean.

[Ambrotos]

Rogean wants fewer petitions and wasted CSR time; repops put other guilds in different zones where its harder to fuck things up. Furthermore, the guides can figure out a repop time in advance when they can all be on and watching rather than 15 different times.


No. We don't need to know the times when things spawn, nor should have access to that information. The manics already assume the worst of the staff, I wouldn't want to have something out there that could be used maliciously. This includes a mini staff get together of the Guides to plan a time.

[Alarti0001]

No. We don't need to know the times when things spawn, nor should have access to that information. The manics already assume the worst of the staff, I wouldn't want to have something out there that could be used maliciously. This includes a mini staff get together of the Guides to plan a time.

Irony

[Nocsucow]

Irony

yea its official i really hate George clooney because of you

[justin2090]

I like the current plan that's in place for raiding. When TMO's suspension is over it's a foregone conclusion that they will have 50% of the raid mobs and FE/IB will have the other 50%. I would suggest just to modify the current rule set.

1) Reduce the wait time from the previous kill to 1 hour.
2) Add a second timer of 30 minutes if you've killed the mob the 2nd to last spawn.
3) Server wide message of respawns for epic related mobs only. If a guild wants to VP then they wouldn't be casual anymore. So then they could have a good ole fashion sock off.

This way the lower tiered guilds can still get a shot at epic mobs without having to sock it.

For example: VS spawns and TMO kills him within 5 minutes. The next spawn they have to wait an hour before engage. Spawn 2 FE/IB downs it within 5 minutes as well. Now TMO has to wait 30 minutes to engage and IB/FE has to wait 1 hour. Spawn 3 <casual guild name here> races to KC and engages within 20 minutes. Kills VS and casual's get their epic pieces.

Basically the casual guild(s) will get 1 free attempt to down the mob. This would keep the excitement there and you would still have to earn the mob. The server wide message means no socking, and the 30 mins to engage means they still have to pay attention and get their stuff together for a good 1st (and only prolly) attempt.

Ultimately this would give the top 2 guilds 66% of the epic mobs guaranteed with the remainder going to the rest of the guilds on the server. The top 2 should have more mobs because they're hardcore like that.

More epics for everyone!

[goshozal]

Gotta hand it to Loraen, he's pretty much dead on. This is the best thread out of all the ones on the subject, and believe me, I lurk quite a bit.

I have been wondering how Rogean honestly expects a collection of self-interested guilds to work out a solution. None of them will offer anything that doesn't benefit themselves, my own guild obviously included.

You have a bunch of self-interested entities that have evolved into the current status quo based on selectional pressures (server rules, limited mobs).

If you want the status quo to change, you remove or lessen the selectional pressures. You don't ask the lions and tigers and hyenas to get along. You take them out of the jungle and put them somewhere that has more food.

Also, all of these discussions have assumed that TMO & IB/FE will remain the only players in the hardcore raid scene. I've seen a awful lot of <Lord Bob> tags recently, and I don't think they're just interested in sky.

[DrKvothe]

1) What's the downside of saturating the server with Kunark raid loot? Velious beta is soon, and when velious is fully out this stuff becomes relatively unimportant.

2) reducing spawn times + a long term play nice policy = more fun for all, including those at the top.

What if we allow raid targets to stay up for 1-2 hours after spawn (details to be determined). At this point, all guilds currently present in zone get a single shot at the target in reverse order of having previously killed said mob. /ran 100 if two guilds haven't killed it before. When your turn comes around, you've got 10 minutes to organize and engage.

So you'd have to get there with a sufficient raid force (still requires a bit of tracking/batphoning, but not nearly as intense). Attempts would be fairly evenly split amongst the top guilds, but theoretically any guild could make an attempt. With increased spawn rates, everyone would benefit (well, TMO wouldn't give up as much as they stand to with other plans).

[Splorf22]

Shutup. Heavily in favor of lots of guilds getting shots at raid mobs if they're willing to put forth SOME sort of effort.

So let's see. You still want tracking and batphoning and zerging, or "effort" as you would like to sugar coat it, you just don't want 3 minute engages and huge numbers of camped alts. In other words, you want the effort level set at BDA. Sounds like I nailed it an you don't like getting called out for it.

You know I have no problem at all with people looking out for themselves. My point with that first paragraph was simply that everyone was posting the systems that would work best for their guild (and I freely admit that repops would be quite nice for The A-Team, although a rotation would be better) and I don't understand why the staff thinks anything will ever be worked out.

[Troubled]

So let's see. You still want tracking and batphoning and zerging, or "effort" as you would like to sugar coat it, you just don't want 3 minute engages and huge numbers of camped alts. In other words, you want the effort level set at BDA. Sounds like I nailed it an you don't like getting called out for it.

You know I have no problem at all with people looking out for themselves. My point with that first paragraph was simply that everyone was posting the systems that would work best for their guild (and I freely admit that repops would be quite nice for The A-Team, although a rotation would be better) and I don't understand why the staff thinks anything will ever be worked out.

Not at all. Why so on the offensive? Still waiting to hear what other guilds want to bring to the table. Maybe stop criticizing and bring something yourself. I personally don't think rotations are the best idea, but maybe they're the best idea for all involved? I dunno. Act like we want the raid scene tailored only to us some more.

[Alarti0001]

Not at all. Still waiting to hear what other guilds want to bring to the table. Maybe stop criticizing and bring something yourself. Act like ywe want the raid scene tailored only to us some more.

You are embarrassing yourself now.

[goshozal]

You are embarrassing yourself now.

Ouch, that's coming from Alarti. And he's right.

[Troubled]

You are embarrassing yourself now.

Definitely interested in some real feedback from him instead of troll posts. Sorry if that's embarrassing?

[Splorf22]

Not at all. Why so on the offensive? Still waiting to hear what other guilds want to bring to the table. Maybe stop criticizing and bring something yourself. I personally don't think rotations are the best idea, but maybe they're the best idea for all involved? I dunno. Act like we want the raid scene tailored only to us some more.

How the fuck can you read through this thread and not realize that I am proposing simulated repops? I mean I only mention it in every single post.

[khanable]

Hasn't the staff stated numerous times now we really won't be seeing a weekly repop?

It would be nice but we're moving from guilds talking to guilds to solve issues to guilds looking to developers to solve issues, trivial or not

Probably not the direction that will gain favorability with the server staff..

[Troubled]

How the fuck can you read through this thread and not realize that I am proposing simulated repops? I mean I only mention it in every single post.

That's great. Repops. Not currently happening though. :(

[quido]

I'd like to see a repop every month.

[goshozal]

Hasn't the staff stated numerous times now we really won't be seeing a weekly repop?

It would be nice but we're moving from guilds talking to guilds to solve issues to guilds looking to developers to solve issues, trivial or not

Probably not the direction that will gain favorability with the server staff..

Exactly!

The server's guilds did not arrive at the status quo out of a vacuum. Things progressed to where they are because of how the rules/repops/variance and other factors were set... by the server staff.

The staff's stance here, with all due respect, doesn't make much sense.

You've got a situation where nobody can get all the loot they want, and Rogean is saying something along the lines of "make an agreement to share the toys or we'll release velious with no toys for anyone."

So, of course, eveybody's only setting forth agreement terms that benefit themselves.

And the only solution set forth so far that effectively means more loot to go around for everyone... is the one the staff won't do!

Loraen has some very valid, non-troll points. I'm not saying a weekly repop would solve all problems, but it's the only solution that, at the bottom line, reduces pressure on everyone to relentlessly compete for every target. No enforcement or windows or points or what-have-you necessary. And let's not forget that weekly repops are both classic and really, really FUN!

Think about it for a minute. TMO/IB/FE would have an easier time letting go of targets like Sev/Tal/Gore/Naggy if there were 4 extra pops a month. TMO/IB/FE would have less motivation to slaughter each other for pixels in VP if there were 4 more rounds of pops a month. A-Team would have more chances at what they want - targets without tracking/batphones - if there were 4 more rounds of pops a month. BDA and AG and Lord Bob and Taken would have more chances to progress as they please if there were 4 more rounds of pops a month.

And if anyone decides to play dickbags with training and shenanigans: suspend them! Suspensions hurt more when there are 4 more rounds of pops a month!

That can only be a step in the right direction. And it doesn't look like a hard step to take at all... so why on earth is it not on the table?

[Enxienty]

Is this everquest

[Hitpoint]

You are proposing that we can't use alts or park more than one char? This is the first time I've said this since this whole thing started. People are starting to take this whole raid equality thing too far.

[baramur]

Exactly!

The server's guilds did not arrive at the status quo out of a vacuum. Things progressed to where they are because of how the rules/repops/variance and other factors were set... by the server staff.

The staff's stance here, with all due respect, doesn't make much sense.

You've got a situation where nobody can get all the loot they want, and Rogean is saying something along the lines of "make an agreement to share the toys or we'll release velious with no toys for anyone."

So, of course, eveybody's only setting forth agreement terms that benefit themselves.

And the only solution set forth so far that effectively means more loot to go around for everyone... is the one the staff won't do!

Loraen has some very valid, non-troll points. I'm not saying a weekly repop would solve all problems, but it's the only solution that, at the bottom line, reduces pressure on everyone to relentlessly compete for every target. No enforcement or windows or points or what-have-you necessary. And let's not forget that weekly repops are both classic and really, really FUN!

Think about it for a minute. TMO/IB/FE would have an easier time letting go of targets like Sev/Tal/Gore/Naggy if there were 4 extra pops a month. TMO/IB/FE would have less motivation to slaughter each other for pixels in VP if there were 4 more rounds of pops a month. A-Team would have more chances at what they want - targets without tracking/batphones - if there were 4 more rounds of pops a month. BDA and AG and Lord Bob and Taken would have more chances to progress as they please if there were 4 more rounds of pops a month.

And if anyone decides to play dickbags with training and shenanigans: suspend them! Suspensions hurt more when there are 4 more rounds of pops a month!

That can only be a step in the right direction. And it doesn't look like a hard step to take at all... so why on earth is it not on the table?

You getting into semantics now. Don't you really mean to say TMO/FE/IB would love killing 4x as many vp mobs each month. Let us get realistic, TMO could have ended this 2 years ago when they were crowned king of raiders and IB left server for mac. They then at that time could have turned to the server and said we will sit out 1 week of every month to let the rest of the server raid uncontested by us on every raid mob, and we hope the other 3 weeks you will compete with us and show up competition. But instead they took every single raid mob they could, and this is the result. If they had been just a little sharing, it never would have came to this, and now that its on the table people are going to overpush for all the mobs they feel they have been deprived. BUT, I will not lay all the blaim on TMO, because this server could have PUT IN EFFORT and fought back, but they laid down and died and cried. Now all that being said everyone do yourselves and the server a favor.

Start of simple and build it slowly and smartly. Why do people think this has to be set in stone immediately. Work on it. Try out different things. Work WITH the big guilds. Make tweaks, modify things, BUT DO NOT try to overstretch it right of the bat. Be smart. Don't test how much weight the boat will hold before sinking right away.

[Pint]

Flooding the server with loot from repops decreases their value, this is bad for rmt guys, therefore bad for the servers health because remember rmt is a sign that a server is healthy and thriving.

[Tasslehofp99]

You are proposing that we can't use alts or park more than one char? This is the first time I've said this since this whole thing started. People are starting to take this whole raid equality thing too far.

Essentially everyone fails to see the fine line between what is a satisfactory expected level of effort to compete and what amounts to guilds leaving mobs up for other guilds who are less motivated to kill at their convenience, which could be any amount of time...within reason.

I think any system in which certain guilds are being ruled out at certain times needs a time limit. For instance if a mob spawns and its up for over 2 hours...should be FFA. If you expect guilds to leave mobs up for days just to give another guild a shot, that's not happening most likely.

TMO and IB/FE have shown willingness to tone their intensity down, but at some point we still expect casual guilds to compete for mobs.


Ill probably get trolled for this but I'm relaying to you guys the reality of this situation. Half the raiders would support a rotation while the other half would never be open to such a thing. You guys really need to think middle ground here.


Before FE formed, it was way worse than it has been since. We were a collective of like minded individuals that were tired of seeing TMO take EVERYTHING, and we did our damn best to change what we could. Did we beat TMO? Nope! Id say they beat themselves, but we did sure give them a proper run for their money most months, despite what the forum trolls will admit. One could tell a similar narrative about TMO's rise to the top and early clashes with IB. You don't get to kill raid mobs without ANY effort, that is an unfair expectation for anyone to have.

Stop bullshitting about point systems and such complicated rule sets; realize we have a huge opportunity to make p99 a better place to play and get 'er done.

In otherwords find that middle ground, you won't get raid pixels without putting in effort. By effort I don't mean the insane lengths that we have seen TMO&FE/IB go to; but show something. You can't expect the upper guilds to let off the gas in their car if you aren't willing to upgrade from a bicycle, figuratively speaking.

I realize that the server has been ultimately oppressed for 2+ years, but a serious mistake would be to try and punish everyone who wishes to play more hours per day than you.


Make it fucking work people!

[goshozal]

You getting into semantics now. Don't you really mean to say TMO/FE/IB would love killing 4x as many vp mobs each month. Let us get realistic, TMO could have ended this 2 years ago when they were crowned king of raiders and IB left server for mac. They then at that time could have turned to the server and said we will sit out 1 week of every month to let the rest of the server raid uncontested by us on every raid mob, and we hope the other 3 weeks you will compete with us and show up competition. But instead they took every single raid mob they could, and this is the result. If they had been just a little sharing, it never would have came to this, and now that its on the table people are going to overpush for all the mobs they feel they have been deprived.

I have two responses to this:

1) If you think the domination of the server raid scene was somehow unique to the people in TMO and would never have happened with any other guild, then you have such a weak grasp of human nature in competitive situations that I really cannot help you.

2) Of course TMO and FE/IB will get more mobs if there are repops. But so will everyone else. The big advantage to repops is that it gives people more without taking away from anyone. Nobody has to sit out. This makes the whole concept easier to swallow for all parties, which is something that we obviously need considering how far the "negotiation" threads have gone.

BUT, I will not lay all the blaim on TMO, because this server could have PUT IN EFFORT and fought back, but they laid down and died and cried. Now all that being said everyone do yourselves and the server a favor.

There was considerable effort put into "fighting back." TMO was still winning up until the point of staff intervention. But again, this is all entirely beside the point being made about repops.

Start of simple and build it slowly and smartly. Why do people think this has to be set in stone immediately. Work on it. Try out different things. Work WITH the big guilds. Make tweaks, modify things, BUT DO NOT try to overstretch it right of the bat. Be smart. Don't test how much weight the boat will hold before sinking right away.

Nowhere have I suggested that this idea is the one-stop solution. The last part of my previous post was that this is an easy step in the right direction.

Frankly, I don't see how we could start any simpler than adding more repops with no trains in VP and see how it pans out. Nobody has to watch 2-hour windows, nobody has to keep track of rotations, nobody has to spend points or anything. There's more to go around, with an enforced expectation of less shenanigans, and the standard penalty for shenanigans hurts more. Easy peasy.

[Retti_]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/didnt-read.gif

[JerSar]

I read your post, but i think the real problem, the very bottom fundamental one, is that people in leadership positions just need to compromise.

If they can't then things happen, probably.

Simple as that I think.

[Vermicelli]

Didn't read. Donut raid. For a raisin.

[Nuggie]

From a guy who has no foot in the raid scene:

screw it, dont compromise and dont get raid zones/targets in velious.

OR

Get the guild leads in a chat room(or skype or whatever) and hash something out and get raid targets.

i like what baramur put in last. start small. keep it simple.

[Ravager]

TMO and IB/FE have shown willingness to tone their intensity down, but at some point we still expect casual guilds to compete for mobs.


Ill probably get trolled for this but I'm relaying to you guys the reality of this situation. Half the raiders would support a rotation while the other half would never be open to such a thing. You guys really need to think middle ground here.

The half that want to compete should play on a server where competition is the point. There's no reason everyone can't have what they want when there's 2 servers of the same content, one of them being where taking everything you want is ingrained in the culture. What people here who can't share need to do is admit that what they really want is the illusion of being the best at something.

[Swish]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/didnt-read.gif

lol'd... and another!

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Barrack+Obama+gif..+Barack+Obama+Did+Not+Read_d61f 7e_3675033.gif

[bluejam]

So I have been reading/flaming the various raid scene threads. Let me sum them up for the casual scum reader who doesn't feel like immersing themself into the sea of pseudo-RNF sewage:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9fjglHGzT1ruunuco1_500.gif




I consider people worried about the server being flooded by loot utterly hilarious. it already is! simulated repops is the way to go. get your classic on.

don't you realize this is just one huge beta until the content is polished enough to open up another server? I very much doubt Nilbog and Rogean feel the desire to hop onto the future bloated P99 once they're done managing, coding, whatever.

[Alarti0001]

Essentially everyone fails to see the fine line between what is a satisfactory expected level of effort to compete and what amounts to guilds leaving mobs up for other guilds who are less motivated to kill at their convenience, which could be any amount of time...within reason.

I think any system in which certain guilds are being ruled out at certain times needs a time limit. For instance if a mob spawns and its up for over 2 hours...should be FFA. If you expect guilds to leave mobs up for days just to give another guild a shot, that's not happening most likely.

TMO and IB/FE have shown willingness to tone their intensity down, but at some point we still expect casual guilds to compete for mobs.


Ill probably get trolled for this but I'm relaying to you guys the reality of this situation. Half the raiders would support a rotation while the other half would never be open to such a thing. You guys really need to think middle ground here.


Before FE formed, it was way worse than it has been since. We were a collective of like minded individuals that were tired of seeing TMO take EVERYTHING, and we did our damn best to change what we could. Did we beat TMO? Nope! Id say they beat themselves, but we did sure give them a proper run for their money most months, despite what the forum trolls will admit. One could tell a similar narrative about TMO's rise to the top and early clashes with IB. You don't get to kill raid mobs without ANY effort, that is an unfair expectation for anyone to have.

Stop bullshitting about point systems and such complicated rule sets; realize we have a huge opportunity to make p99 a better place to play and get 'er done.

In otherwords find that middle ground, you won't get raid pixels without putting in effort. By effort I don't mean the insane lengths that we have seen TMO&FE/IB go to; but show something. You can't expect the upper guilds to let off the gas in their car if you aren't willing to upgrade from a bicycle, figuratively speaking.

I realize that the server has been ultimately oppressed for 2+ years, but a serious mistake would be to try and punish everyone who wishes to play more hours per day than you.


Make it fucking work people!

ITT Complains about rotations for years... gets a few kills and wants competition.
ROFL !

[Tasslehofp99]

ITT Complains about rotations for years... gets a few kills and wants competition.
ROFL !

I never supported a full rotation; you're putting words in my mouth. I was just against monopolization and the complete disregard TMO displayed for any other guild on the server. Are you mad because I was right all along?

Instead of talking shit you should come up with some suggestions on how to help the server instead of fuck it up; something you've worked hard at accomplishing the last 2 or so years.

[baramur]

Alarti your a fucking moron. It was not bad enough TMO monopolized the server, but we had to listen to you in RNF all the time telling everyone else they sucked. Fuck off seriously. You bring nothing useful, just troll every post. TMO best move would be to get rid of you.

[Ravager]

Should just adjust the loot tables of all the raid mobs, put them on 28 minute timers with placeholders and make them like any other camp. It's not like they haven't been farmed for the last 2 years anyway.

[Alarti0001]

I never supported a full rotation; you're putting words in my mouth. I was just against monopolization and the complete disregard TMO displayed for any other guild on the server. Are you mad because I was right all along?

Instead of talking shit you should come up with some suggestions on how to help the server instead of fuck it up; something you've worked hard at accomplishing the last 2 or so years.

But you weren't right. I also came up with a suggestion and posted it. Its the one derubael liked. Go find it!

Server is doing well 1k players constantly... hardly fucked up.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti your a fucking moron. It was not bad enough TMO monopolized the server, but we had to listen to you in RNF all the time telling everyone else they sucked. Fuck off seriously. You bring nothing useful, just troll every post. TMO best move would be to get rid of you.

No you !

We didn't monopolize... understand the definition of the words you are using.
Thanks for playing !

[Geofizzle]

Baramurs right - this is EQ dude killing 9/10 mobs a week WASNT classic and there's no skill or even effort involved in that LOLOL, ALL OF TMOS SUCCESS (you read right, ALL, 100% of it) is just due to duping, RMT, corrupt guild leadership, duping, poopsocking 50+ players 24/7, Amelinda and Uthgaard in ur pokets, camping your 8+ PD geared alts on every spawn in the game, poopsocking, and monopolizing the Solusek King camp in Solb has certainly doesn't hurt either. Can't you guys grow up and learn to share things with the little lvl 1s in EC omg theyre so cute how can you just be a jerk like that to them :(

[Geofizzle]

We need to think of the little guys who play on the server more. Hell, there are like 4-5 players running around with rusty longswords out there right now. Think of how sad they are not to be killing trak right now

[baramur]

Monopolize- To dominate by excluding others. Whether training, leap frogging, kiting, or cheating, you held full control of kunark for over 2 years. That would be a monopoly.

[Geofizzle]

Baramur - theyre heartless you can't teach good EQ skills to those 150 players, theyre all heartless, being good is just innate - you know ppl like u. like id love to give a noobie lvl 1 like 100pp and let them kill PD and loot a crown of rile thats what will make this server better. Gotta spread that loot yo and stop being such a whiny baby already TMO lol

[Alarti0001]

Monopolize- To dominate by excluding others. Whether training, leap frogging, kiting, or cheating, you held full control of kunark for over 2 years. That would be a monopoly.

(of an organization or group) obtain exclusive possession or control of (a trade, commodity, or service).

Exclusive possession. When guilds competed they were able to get a good 40% or so. That isn't a monopoly. There isnt a barrier to entry to killing 32khp dragons that we created. Anyone at anytime, if they so desired, could have brought 40ppl to the raid scene and picked off targets.

This is an effort based system, where efforts are rewarded. It is not TMO's fault that some guilds wants to put in effort and some didn't.

Glad I could take the time to educate you on the meaning of a word.

[Geofizzle]

40 people? Who is going to have a guild with that kind of zerg numbers really besides TMO? I'm lucky if i can find 1 friend to play with and thats a challenge to even find that! And how am i going to port 40 ppl to that zone with all the dragons? Veeshans Perch is tough too u gotta be keyed to get there...so Traganon I guess would b the target. But I give all my plat to noobs in the tunnel i cant be donating for all those ports dude thats just not feasible for me and my guild so stop trying to spin when I'm the master of arguments u cant outspin it.

[Nirgon]

40-60 is a pretty classic raid # imo

[Geofizzle]

40-60 is a pretty classic raid # imo

Lol its not 1998 anymore when EQ released sorry man but things change. :cool:

[Atmas]

So you can maybe argue that TMO has a lot of people but not that it zergs mobs. TMO kills as many mobs with numbers in the low 20s as it does with numbers in the 50s. It usually falls somewhere between. Mobs are killed with who shows up, not waiting for a zerg force.

Still I think the problem that is ignored the most is no live server during Kunark had enough content for the end game population on P99.

[Splorf22]

You are proposing that we can't use alts or park more than one char? This is the first time I've said this since this whole thing started. People are starting to take this whole raid equality thing too far.

Really? I didn't propose any limits on how many mobs you could kill. It's pure competition! Take as many as you want!

More seriously I think this alt explosion that we have seen on the server is one of the worst things about it. First, it keeps people competing for stuff that they otherwise would not need. You wanna know why TMO was still batphoning after two years? Cause everyone needed 2-3 alts to park at targets and then they wanted to gear those alts and so on. Secondly, it requires new players to spend an absolutely ridiculous (and NOT CLASSIC) amount of time gearing up multiple toons. Finally, where is the fun in it? You remove half the action by not having to mobilize and get past guards.

Flooding the server with loot from repops decreases their value, this is bad for rmt guys, therefore bad for the servers health because remember rmt is a sign that a server is healthy and thriving.

FWIW repops don't flood the server with items as much as people think. I cannot be bothered to do the math exactly but even a repop every week would increase the items by only 50% or so. Considering how many people we have, that's hardly a disaster.

Hasn't the staff stated numerous times now we really won't be seeing a weekly repop?

That does seem to be their position, and it is mindboggling to me, which is why I titled this thread the Raid Scene Rage Thread.

Frankly, I don't see how we could start any simpler than adding more repops with no trains in VP and see how it pans out. Nobody has to watch 2-hour windows, nobody has to keep track of rotations, nobody has to spend points or anything. There's more to go around, with an enforced expectation of less shenanigans, and the standard penalty for shenanigans hurts more. Easy peasy.

Exactly.

[Alarti0001]

40 people? Who is going to have a guild with that kind of zerg numbers really besides TMO? I'm lucky if i can find 1 friend to play with and thats a challenge to even find that! And how am i going to port 40 ppl to that zone with all the dragons? Veeshans Perch is tough too u gotta be keyed to get there...so Traganon I guess would b the target. But I give all my plat to noobs in the tunnel i cant be donating for all those ports dude thats just not feasible for me and my guild so stop trying to spin when I'm the master of arguments u cant outspin it.

BDA, Taken, Doljon, FE/IB to name a few.

[jaybone]

(of an organization or group) obtain exclusive possession or control of (a trade, commodity, or service).

Exclusive possession. When guilds competed they were able to get a good 40% or so. That isn't a monopoly. There isnt a barrier to entry to killing 32khp dragons that we created. Anyone at anytime, if they so desired, could have brought 40ppl to the raid scene and picked off targets.

This is an effort based system, where efforts are rewarded. It is not TMO's fault that some guilds wants to put in effort and some didn't.

Glad I could take the time to educate you on the meaning of a word.

pick off targets when you have your RMT alts sitting at spawns. OK

[Alarti0001]

pick off targets when you have your RMT alts sitting at spawns. OK

hi anon troll account :)

[Handull]

A Team benefits the most from having a lot of repops. That said, I think we would all benefit from having more repops and less of everything that we have now.

[CodyF86]

A Team benefits the most from having a lot of repops. That said, I think we would all benefit from having more repops and less of everything that we have now.

If by benefit you mean we might go after a raid target from time to time then
I guess so, but I think that really applies to anyone who doesn't track/poop-sock.

We really have no interest in tracking for ridiculous amounts of time,
i.e., super-variance we have now or poop-socking.

More interested in killing really hard shit (which just so happens to be raid merbs, lol :) )
and making it harder on ourselves by doing it with a group or two, than the actual loot it
drops, well at least myself anyway.

Don't get me wrong tho, loot is obv nice, esp when it's an epic quest cock-block,
but not gonna rage about it.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Trying to combat people using alts is a hopelessly lost cause.

^ good luck

[carli]

If by benefit you mean we might go after a raid target from time to time then
I guess so, but I think that really applies to anyone who doesn't track/poop-sock.

We really have no interest in tracking for ridiculous amounts of time,
i.e., super-variance we have now or poop-socking.

More interested in killing really hard shit (which just so happens to be raid merbs, lol :) )
and making it harder on ourselves by doing it with a group or two, than the actual loot it
drops, well at least myself anyway.

Don't get me wrong tho, loot is obv nice, esp when it's an epic quest cock-block,
but not gonna rage about it.

Aaradin
The A-Team

I agree Aaradin. I'm staying out of these raid modification threads for the most part, but it would be really nice for our guild if we could get a shot or two at a few raid targets with our low #s for fun. Would make any pixels we could manage to get way more awesome. FUCK ZERGING.

I honestly don't think that we'll get our shot(s) at a lot of kunark raid mobs til velious hits... which is alright I suppose! My bloodlust can wait. It's not worth fighting and shit.

[Rogean]

A mechanic that was tossed around internally was:

I'll use trakanon as an example.

Trakanon spawns, all players currently in zone get a flag. Players who 'zone in' without this flag get sent to the zone in and flagged.

This means.. anyone logging into a character after trakanon has spawned will be sent to the zone in. Once you've been in the zone once during his spawn, you can zone out and back in without being sent to the zone in.

Discuss.

[Yinikren]

I can get down with that idea, Rogean. Will help with the racing aspect of the encounter since people won't just be logging on alts. We still need a way to keep guilds from monopolizing content though.

Point systems ftw!

[Rogean]

totally abuse-able non classic game mechanic

1. Elaborate. That's what these threads are for. If you aren't explaining, you're being a waste of time.
2. Leave classicness out of this. It isn't classic to begin with to camp out hundred of alts at every raid boss spawn because there's no subscription fee.

[Funkutron5000]

A mechanic that was tossed around internally was:

I'll use trakanon as an example.

Trakanon spawns, all players currently in zone get a flag. Players who 'zone in' without this flag get sent to the zone in and flagged.

This means.. anyone logging into a character after trakanon has spawned will be sent to the zone in. Once you've been in the zone once during his spawn, you can zone out and back in without being sent to the zone in.

Discuss.

I wonder if it would "encourage" people to leave their toons logged in at poop mnt instead of sitting at character select or logged out or whatever. Rebuffing would be a heck of a lot quicker than running or cothing an entire raid down.

It's an interesting idea though, to be sure.

[khanable]

A mechanic that was tossed around internally was:

I'll use trakanon as an example.

Trakanon spawns, all players currently in zone get a flag. Players who 'zone in' without this flag get sent to the zone in and flagged.

This means.. anyone logging into a character after trakanon has spawned will be sent to the zone in. Once you've been in the zone once during his spawn, you can zone out and back in without being sent to the zone in.

Discuss.

I like

But I feel like with any change, people will find ways around it

what comes to mind is everyone camped anywhere in seb (free ride to ent!), with 10 AFK coth mages/anchors ready to bring them all down

it's going to be who can blow through pearls the fastest

[Yinikren]

Edit: I see this being nasty in a zone like hateplane though. We have already had issues with guilds bringing inny to the zoneline.

[Funkutron5000]

Could you make it so the area surrounding the Trakanon spawn, say, everything from the invis wall on, doesn't get the flag applied, even if online? Basically if a guild is poopsocking they all get booted back to zone in as well as anyone that logs on in the area?

[Garguren]

I like the idea quite a bit Rogean. One addition that would need to be made would be something along the lines that any guild which trains another while trying to get down to trak is barred from that attempt.

Accidents happen, but if the guild is moving down in a safe manner this would not be a concern. This would effect the people who want to try and zerg down with zero regard for anyone else. Maintain control of your mobs and be responsible for your guild and you will make it to trak in no time.

Regarding the xp groups, would it be possible to flag certain areas in the zone as safe? Say chief/disco/crypt ect. Those are out of the way a good bit and would be no real concern. There is still a small issue for people at NG / whatever other close camp there might be but it would be an improvement.

[Rogean]

it is an exp zone. there are many people doing many different things in zone that include camping out agro, rezzing in, ect. SO your run of the mill exp groups are at risk of having members arbitrarily warping to zone in and they wont even know why unless they somehow know trakanon popped.

The only time this would happen would be if they camped out completely, and then in the 2 seconds it takes for them to hit enter world again, trakanon spawned.

[Rogean]

Yea so you guys have already seen all the problems with that plan, so I'm gonna go back to my code cave.

[khanable]

Yea, I see this as a giant cluster fuck of trains that will also likely murder all xp groups

[Razdeline]

A mechanic that was tossed around internally was:

I'll use trakanon as an example.

Trakanon spawns, all players currently in zone get a flag. Players who 'zone in' without this flag get sent to the zone in and flagged.

This means.. anyone logging into a character after trakanon has spawned will be sent to the zone in. Once you've been in the zone once during his spawn, you can zone out and back in without being sent to the zone in.

Discuss.

I think internal solutions are good to consider, for the future of this type of classic content, and maintaining interest in it.

In the scenario you outlined, if anything, would make the Trakanon encounter more classic due to the fact that people would race from the zone in upon discovering he spawned.(during this era we typically had a tracker, but the guild rarely camped down there and had to race from the zone in)

[Rogean]

stuck in a tight spot? /q out and get a free ride to entrance

You need to read the idea again and stop being stupid. None of the things you've suggested would work.

[Rogean]

Yea, I see this as a giant cluster fuck of trains that will also likely murder all xp groups

Classic.

[Aviann]

Classic.

[Yinikren]

Inny back to the hate plane zone in. :(

[Splorf22]

My biggest problem with the idea is that it encourages poopsocking. So I would add 'all characters with xloc < -200 && yloc < -1400 have evacuate cast on them'. This ends up being everything past the juggs fort.

[Rogean]

My biggest problem with the idea is that it encourages poopsocking. So I would add 'all characters with xloc < -200 && yloc < -1400 have evacuate cast on them'. This ends up being everything past the juggs fort.

People would just find the closest safe poopsock location.

[Rogean]

Need to just charge a subscription to engage raid mobs. All problems solved. lol.

[Garguren]

After reading it again, this seems to push the need to poopsock as logging in alts wont work as well.

[Splorf22]

Yea, I see this as a giant cluster fuck of trains that will also likely murder all xp groups

It's hard to see how they'd train a group in the disco. About the only 'normal' camp that would have issues would be the spore king.

I'm sure FE/TMO would just camp all their alts right at the orb and try and train around to get a coh mage up, so under pure variance I don't think its that amazing (although a step in the right direction for sure). But if you combine this with repops then it's gold.

[Razdeline]

Yea so you guys have already seen all the problems with that plan, so I'm gonna go back to my code cave.

I think it's a good idea if you can find a way to cut any loopholes

[Splorf22]

People would just find the closest safe poopsock location.

Well it should be possible to at least make that closest safe poopsock location up at NG, which isn't really much closer than the zone in.

[Rogean]

I think it's better if you guys continue to work on a player solution that benefits everyone.

[Yinikren]

We have had ideas, but its tough to know what would be easy or difficult to enforce based on the staff. For instance, my idea of a weighted point based system seems like it would be easy to police itself, and anyone who isn't in TMO seems to like the idea. Would such a plan be difficult for the staff to enforce? Its the easiest method I could come up with that would benefit more than two guilds.

[Razdeline]

Well it should be possible to at least make that closest safe poopsock location up at NG, which isn't really much closer than the zone in.

This ^^

[cyryllis]

First suggestion ive read that actually seems like it could work. It would slow down spawn time to engage time, and allow more guilds the chance to mobilize. Due to the number of see invis in basement and the fact that mages wouldnt be able to just coth people down within seconds it would be an interesting experiment to say the least. Why not just implement it for a month, see how it works and use that time to gather data and community input. If it does not seem to work, no harm no foul, remove the code and return to the brainstorming

[Razdeline]

Everyone knows the risks of when these mobs are in Window too

[Laugher]

Haha subscription ftw

but honestly I haven't read much into this past the last 3 pages of this thread, so forgive me if a similiar concept has been discussed:

The last guild who killed a raid mob must wait 1-2 more kills of the raid mob before they can go back and kill it again. If this was the case that would enable all targets to be able to be at least minimally alternated or contested given who killed what last; less mess less code I would think.

then, for example, if FE/IB and say TMO were contesting trak one week then you would know whichever got them last would have to sit out while the ones who didn't get trak in teh previous kill would have to compete with guild c over that spawn next week.

[Splorf22]

I think it's better if you guys continue to work on a player solution that benefits everyone.

I think repops, even with alt cycling, would be hugely superior to anything the players can negotiate among ourselves. But if you aren't convinced of that after reading the OP, nothing I say is going to change that.

[Razdeline]

Need to just charge a subscription to engage raid mobs. All problems solved. lol.

bitcoins?

[Lojik]

Know what's not classic? Playing in kunark for this long and a huge population of high levels.. Fix? Suspend all accounts older than 20 months until velious release

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

The new rules that are going to come...
should only include guilds that was able to get a kill during TMO suspension.

So IB FE TAKEN DIV BDA AND TMO. No other guilds even attempted to raid besides Knights who say Ni but they team up with BDA.


ONLY
IB FE TAKEN DIV BDA AND TMO should be part of the new rules. Any other lower tier guild should have to team up or show they want mobs. Before we just hand them mobs for doing absolutely NOTHING.

[kotton05]

I like the flag rule!! just a mass clear to trak lair hehe imagine 3 guilds of 30+ murdering thru seb to get to jugs

[Splorf22]

What you don't like The A-Teams amazing kill of Noble Dojorn?

[Unidus]

Everything FTE free for all except Sky. Leave Vox and Naggy for smaller/newer guilds to fight over. Most of the top guilds can get scales and other loot from Gore/Tal or buy the damn things with your extra Trak BPs.

[Yinikren]

Unidus, what you're proposing is... No change whatsoever. I guess this means we aren't raiding in Velious :)

[CodyF86]

Honestly after reading the last few pages I've come to the conclusion
that without simulated patch days i.e., repops this whole thing is going
to fall off the tracks fairly early regardless of what we all decide.

The knowledge that they would be implemented is pretty much the glue
that is going to hold this whole cluster-ef together, and without that it
seems like a lot of people just aren't going to care and continue on as
they have been, even if it means crapping all over everyone else.

No offense to Roegan, but being vague about if this is going to happen
or not is, is part of the reason I see this thing de-railing, esp since because
of the one that already occurred, it's fairly obvious it's not that hard to make
happen.

Even without a server agreement, ^ would make things 100x better.

P.S., mother-ef extended variance.

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Derubael]

Don't worry about what's hard to enforce and what's not. Come up with something ALL OF YOU can agree on, then we can talk about enforcement. I have some ideas on that I'm not ready to share yet.

Real negotiations take time, effort, and a little compromise.

If you guys haven't done this/started doing this already, I'd suggest officers start talking with their guild, get an idea of what their guild wants, and then getting with the officers of the other guilds to talk about what you all want to do moving forward from here.

[kotton05]

What about rotating outdoor dragons with a calendar, then keeping vs/trak/fear/hate the same race we all know, in order for a guild to get into outdoor dragon rotation must kill a contested vs/trak?

[Yinikren]

I've posted in my guild forums. The big issue I am seeing is that no guild will get on board with a plan that doesn't benefit them. I would like to think that my idea is the easiest way to get multiple guilds raiding. But, because TMO and probably FE would lose mobs over it (which they should have expected, but meh) neither of them would be on board. It'll be tough aligning the masses.

[CodyF86]

Don't worry about what's hard to enforce and what's not. Come up with something ALL OF YOU can agree on, then we can talk about enforcement. I have some ideas on that I'm not ready to share yet.

Real negotiations take time, effort, and a little compromise.

If you guys haven't done this/started doing this already, I'd suggest officers start talking with their guild, get an idea of what their guild wants, and then getting with the officers of the other guilds to talk about what you all want to do moving forward from here.

Well the good news is that there is definitely some good-willed negotiations going
on atm between the guilds, and I'm not even talking specifically about these threads.

i.e., Ella's request for guild leaders to contact him and to setup some vent talks,
in his thread below. Hopefully some good will emerge from it. :)

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Melissa]

Don't worry about what's hard to enforce and what's not. Come up with something ALL OF YOU can agree on, then we can talk about enforcement. I have some ideas on that I'm not ready to share yet.

Real negotiations take time, effort, and a little compromise.

If you guys haven't done this/started doing this already, I'd suggest officers start talking with their guild, get an idea of what their guild wants, and then getting with the officers of the other guilds to talk about what you all want to do moving forward from here.

some information would be nice from the GMs on within what boundaries people can discuss compromises. Top guilds want competition, other guilds just want a shot.

How far in coding are GMs willing to go so that people can make informed decisions? Are full repops on the table? Someone mentioned Tokens to spawn raid mobs...is that off the table? Basically a shitton of threads appeared cause everyone has an idea, but they have no clue what GM's are willing to allow.

Tell us how far we can go with the discussions then we can make better focused decisions together.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

What about rotating outdoor dragons with a calendar, then keeping vs/trak/ct/PD the same race we all know, in order for a guild to get into outdoor dragon rotation must kill a contested vs/trak?
I agree with ya Merkk.
Something like that would be cool. They have to kill something contested to get in the rotation. Anything even not just trak / vs.
Hell I even am down to include everyone on RAID KILLS (http://whokilledit.com/) which is a longer list considering TMO is suspended and FE IB are passing out some mobs this week. If they want in a rotation? Than get a kill or show some work besides forum quest. No kills? Than kick rocks on your shot at rotation spot.
I am guessing you overlooked that poll?
Half the people are crying for 0 competition. YES 0. Meaning ALL mobs are rotated and giving new guilds a spot for rotation even if they have never competed or killed anything. Besides them forum questing.
An people think I am crazy for saying this is dumb^^
What you don't like The A-Teams amazing kill of Noble Dojorn?
Grats on that lol but...
It is not even on the WHO KILLED DRAGONS (http://whokilledit.com/)
So really it does not count! ; )
But FE IB are going to be leaving A LOT of mobs up for 2+ hours this week.
If A-team cannot get a kill on that list during this easy week than...
still time , we will see.
Knights who say Nii have even stepped it up and are on the list.
Lets see what color named the A-Team gets! Get on that List!
Or have the Knights overrun ya in power? ooo

[Derubael]

some information would be nice from the GMs on within what boundaries people can discuss compromises. Top guilds want competition, other guilds just want a shot.

How far in coding are GMs willing to go so that people can make informed decisions? Are full repops on the table? Someone mentioned Tokens to spawn raid mobs...is that off the table? Basically a shitton of threads appeared cause everyone has an idea, but they have no clue what GM's are willing to allow.

Tell us how far we can go with the discussions then we can make better focused decisions together.

Work off the assumption that nothing new will be coded in.

Use the tools you have available, the power of intelligent discussion and compromise is strong.

Realistically, I don't see a full on rotation getting agreed upon by all guilds. Even if we were to pretend that TMO's vote doesn't count (and it still does), I think you'd be hard pressed to get fe/ib to agree to something like that.

There's a middle ground in here somewhere that everyone will be able to agree on, just need to find it. I have full confidence that an agreement like this can be reached by the players, without the need for us to come in and say 'this is how it's gonna be'.

[Splorf22]

It was for a while! Fraud!

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

There's a middle ground in here somewhere that everyone will be able to agree on, just need to find it. I have full confidence that an agreement like this can be reached by the players, without the need for us to come in and say 'this is how it's gonna be'.
Agree there is a common ground everyone could agree on. But it also could go very bad because communication is low and no place to discuss this . This public forum is not the place IMO to setup something this big.
Maybe you or the guild leaders could arrange maybe a skype call between the top 3-4 guild leaders. I know TMO is leader absent the past week but we should hear something around 2014. An after a few discussions I am sure something good will come out of it for everyone even those not directly in the talk should benefit.

[Derubael]

Turp, you should know better than to think we'd enforce anything that was laid out on the forums as opposed to in a real time meeting with guild leaders/officers :D

[CodyF86]

Grats on that lol but...
It is not even on the WHO KILLED DRAGONS (http://whokilledit.com/)
So really it does not count! ; )
But FE IB are going to be leaving A LOT of mobs up for 2+ hours this week.
If A-team cannot get a kill on that list during this easy week than...
still time , we will see.
Knights who say Nii have even stepped it up and are on the list.
Lets see what color named the A-Team gets! Get on that List!
Or have the Knights overrun ya in power? ooo

I guess yesterday was the first time you've ever looked at whokilledit.com,
because noble/ooa/hand has been on whokilledit.com forever and up until
about yesterday, when whoever edits it removed that listing completely
It said Noble Djorn - A-Team / Ooa-taken / Hand - A-Team/Taken.

So wtf is going on lol? Someone literally removed that yesterday and yes
we were on whokilledit.com from December 22nd up until yesterday I guess
when someone removed it.

Aaradin
The A-team

[khanable]

Yea didn't that website list noble ooa etc?

Last I looked at it they were listed

[CodyF86]

Yea didn't that website list noble ooa etc?

Last I looked at it they were listed

It did.

Aaradin
The A-team

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Lol yea first time I ever clicked it was today. I figured Noble should count because it is contested i was jp that it didnt count.
I just know A-Team is capable of getting even on that new list.

[Splorf22]

I just know A-Team is capable of getting even on that new list.

I am constitutionally incapable of tracking.

[Yinikren]

Seems like a retarded idea to have a rotation where the only way you get on it is by competing with two guilds that can mobilize and kill any mob in the game in under 5 minutes, 15 for CT.

[Clark]

You need to read the idea again and stop being stupid. None of the things you've suggested would work.

lol

[bluejam]

Yea, I see this as a giant cluster fuck of trains that will also likely murder all xp groups
Classic.

You guys put a stop to pulling Venril Sathir to zone in due to the resulting disruption, so why would it be alright in Seb?

edit: "it" being training xp groups to bits.