With no GM authority, these raid talks are worse than useless

[HeallunRumblebelly]

First off I'd like to thank Rogean for thinking of the possibility that there may be a problem with the current raid scene on Project 1999. The raid situation for those who were not involved prior to this announcement was a situation of repeated FTEs (where the FTE shouts added to discern FTE were nearly pointless), fraps and GM arbitration on every kill where the top two guilds decided to attend. The CSR staff decided that this was too much work on an unpaid team and wanted the community to come up with something that would be amenable to all (or most) raiding parties.

And this is where we are now.

Many ideas have been proposed in the multitude of threads recently on server chat ranging from removal of variance, adding a grace window for other guilds to compete, points systems, timed repops and rotations. Some of these ideas would seem to involve even more CSR involvement than the current raid rules which is antithetical to the reasons that new raid rules are being brainstormed upon in the first place. Each person and guild has their own inputs and goals. The biggest issue we have is that server chat is not a proper framework for discussion of this type. I'm all for keeping these things transparent, but when no one has any bargaining power, or even worse, any enforcement capability, the words are meaningless.

Regardless of what is chosen for new raid rules, a proper summit needs to be held once again with people who would be interested in seeing raid rules changed. In P99's current structure this would mean guild representatives as it's the only organization structure we have to organize P99's vast playerbase. I would just like to re-iterate that if after the end of such talks if the rules are not binding with definite consequence, then the whole of the talks would be pointless and we'd rather not have a repeat of what we've had in the past. Rogean (maybe Nilbog? fuzzy on this) had said in the past that there would never be a GM enforced rotation, but here we are discussing what is essentially what type of rotation (or mercy rules) the server would like to put in place. Without these rules, we simply have what we had before, which the CSR staff has decided to be unacceptable.

I guess my question is, how long are 100 randoms going to jerk it on the forums before something actually gets done about these raid rule changes? The guild representatives aren't sitting at the table discussing right now--they're flinging feces across the room. Without structure and binding agreements, the talks mean nothing.

[Frieza_Prexus]

A guild forum should be opened and only guild leaders + chosen representatives should have posting rights. This along with vent roundtables should facilitate useful discussion.

I think the best way to organize the forum would be a separate thread for each "idea" regarding raid scene changes, and that a master thread would be stickied where each guild involved posted ONCE as to whether they support, oppose, or "could live with" each individual idea thread so that we can quickly assess the overall environment and see where common ground exists.

Zagum is out of town ATM, but TMO should be in official contact in a few days.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

A guild forum should be opened and only guild leaders + chosen representatives should have posting rights. This along with vent roundtables should facilitate useful discussion.

I think the best way to organize the forum would be a separate thread for each "idea" regarding raid scene changes, and that a master thread would be stickied where each guild involved posted ONCE as to whether they support, oppose, or "could live with" each individual idea thread so that we can quickly assess the overall environment and see where common ground exists.

Zagum is out of town ATM, but TMO should be in official contact in a few days.

Definitely a good way to organize the discussion, but what of final arbitration? Who decides what rules go in? Is it a vote or does the CSR staff simply pick the best rules and post them? We need more information from the CSR staff before a final decision is made. I think Rogean, according to his front page post, wanted this to be a community led and community driven thing, but in the past we've seen what the community has chosen (as it has no enforcement arm beyond its own guild).

[sanforce]

I'm pretty sure Rogean wants the community to work it out and wants less work for his staff. A dedicated and exclusive forum would help tremendously, but in the end I think any new rule will have to come from the community and be enforced by the community.

[Autotune]

It's probably because most of the raid people have been around the block a few times. GMs talk about change, the raiders go wild with ideas and suggestions and nothing is implemented or changed with staff backing.

reason.

Everyone wanted variance to be reduced and the staff only increased it.

[JayN]

I hope this works this time; instead of a bunch of assholes breaking off into other smaller guilds in attempts to get more spawns (like the last time there was an agreement).

Good luck this sounds great in theory but there are just to many A-type narcissistic greedy ass trolls on p99.

I am personally all for HONORED agreements

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

An admittedly non-classic solution, would be for the devs to put an Omar-bot into the game, that would be triggered if a gm looks in and sees some kinda lame-ass bullshit happenin

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44373292.jpg

[JayN]

An admittedly non-classic solution, would be for the devs to put an Omar-bot into the game, that would be triggered if a gm looks in and sees some kinda lame-ass bullshit happenin

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44373292.jpg

Sleeper wakenings monthly please

[Exmo]

Um. Roegan wasn't subtle in saying there will be GM enforcement.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131739&page=16

TMO You will be expected to abide by the agreement, so I suggest you participate and work with the other guilds respectfully.

[Rogean]

You started this thread with wrong information.

I didn't read much but TLDR seems to be that player arrangements are useless because they won't be enforced by staff.

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.

Whatever the majority of raiding guilds agree on WILL be enforced by the staff.

[Autotune]

Um. Roegan wasn't subtle in saying there will be GM enforcement.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131739&page=16

Please fix your link to a real man's. No one has time for boy page lengths.

[Rogean]

Please fix your link to a real man's. No one has time for boy page lengths.

Fixed.

[Autotune]

You started this thread with wrong information.

I didn't read much but TLDR seems to be that player arrangements are useless because they won't be enforced by staff.

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.

Whatever the majority of raiding guilds agree on WILL be enforced by the staff.

Well, this should motivate people to move forward.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

You started this thread with wrong information.

I didn't read much but TLDR seems to be that player arrangements are useless because they won't be enforced by staff.

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.

Whatever the majority of raiding guilds agree on WILL be enforced by the staff.

Very happy to hear that. It's just in the past they've tried these types of guild meetings and not much have came of them.

Is it also fair to call Taken/Divinity a raiding guild if in the past they weren't really getting targets? What makes a guild a raiding guild, or do you mean decided on by the majority of the P99 community?

edit: And for expediency's sake, where would be the best place for these type of talks to begin? Something...official, y'know?

[Elderan]

Zone turns pvp once the raid mob spawns...

Enjoy the fun, problem solved..

[Elmarnieh]

Why not just have a zone where you just spawn mobs weekly on the schedule that best works for whatever guilds want.

That way its like we could not play Everquest at all like it was on live and just log in, kill stuff and be on our merry way?

The LAST thing I want is a GM enforced player behavior that isn't disruptive and following the server rules for FTE is not disruptive. The point of competition is competing.

[radditsu]

Zone turns pvp once the raid mob spawns...

Enjoy the fun, problem solved..

That sounds like a technical problem. Technical fixes to raid scene arent the point. The point is a human issue..


And pvp on eq sucks balls and go back to red.

[radditsu]

Use the tools we have to make an agreement. Don't depend on repops or variance changes. Those are future issues.

[Pint]

y a raiding guild if in the past they weren't really getting targets? What makes a guild a raiding guild, or do you mean decided on by the majority of the P99 community?


tmo, fe, ib, bda, taken, divinity, europa, azure guard. all guilds with loyal cores that can presumably be relied on to at least put forth an effort to help their guild achieve some raid kills. sorry if i missed anyones guild that feels they are close to raid ready, no offense intended. a-team and doljon maybe? think a-team lacks numbers and doljon is still a mixed bag of mid 50s getting their grind on.

[zanderklocke]

A-Team is all about killing raid targets...just with low numbers. ;)

[Splorf22]

tmo, fe, ib, bda, taken, divinity, europa, azure guard. all guilds with loyal cores that can presumably be relied on to at least put forth an effort to help their guild achieve some raid kills. sorry if i missed anyones guild that feels they are close to raid ready, no offense intended. a-team and doljon maybe? think a-team lacks numbers and doljon is still a mixed bag of mid 50s getting their grind on.

It depends on what your definition is really. Raiding on P1999 has almost nothing to do with actually killing the mobs, which is why people talk about handouts so much.

If we had a few hours to mobilize, prepare charmed pets/clear guards, and engage, I think we could take out anything outside of Veeshan's Peak except MAYBE Trakanon/Gorenaire, and honestly I think we could do that too, although it might take some practice.

If we have to track and batphone an engage within 3 minutes with other guilds doing their best to train us with plausible deniability, then we can't kill anything outside of maybe Maestro.

[radditsu]

A-Team is all about killing raid targets...just with low numbers. ;)

It's what I wanted fe to do at the start. But cant fight an empire without numbers :(

[Ravager]

A-Team is all about killing raid targets...just with low numbers. ;)

I want to see some A-Team skeleton crew attempts too.

[quido]

Yeah it'd be fun to reserve the occasional spawn for low-number attempt bids like was suggested before.

[Pint]

yea im sure with proper prep you guys could do some impressive things, but if you field 12ish people on a pre planned sky raid it seems a little unfair to make guilds that can field 30-40 raiders stand down and wait for you. seems like you guys should take you experience and gear and help one of the smaller guilds get that little extra edge they may need to compete.

[Pint]

you guys should become a mercenary guild !

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

The raid situation for those who were not involved prior to this announcement was a situation of repeated FTEs (where the FTE shouts added to discern FTE were nearly pointless)

stopped reading there.
FTE shouts have helped and are far from pointless aside from the stalker probe eye bug, I dunno where the hell you been raiding, so I am guessing you do not raid.
In that case than gtfo trying to GM authorize some raid rules or w.e the fuck your trying to do, as i said i stopped reading it when it was obvious troll/noob/non raider/never seen a FTE.

[radditsu]

Yeah it'd be fun to reserve the occasional spawn for low-number attempt bids like was suggested before.

I t would be fun to take 3 tmo 3 fe/ib and try to one group shit

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

You started this thread with wrong information.

TLDR seems to be that player arrangements are useless because they won't be enforced by staff.

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.

Whatever the majority of raiding guilds agree on WILL be enforced by the staff.

[Shinko]

http://whokilledit.com/

i see more guilds on that then ever.

with this 2 hour system

[Splorf22]

yea im sure with proper prep you guys could do some impressive things, but if you field 12ish people on a pre planned sky raid it seems a little unfair to make guilds that can field 30-40 raiders stand down and wait for you. seems like you guys should take you experience and gear and help one of the smaller guilds get that little extra edge they may need to compete.

I am not saying they should. I am saying that (as Radditsu found out) variance forces you to zerg. You have to have enough warm bodies to track, you have to have enough warm bodies to batphone at 4AM, and because you went to so much effort to get here you definitely want to have to have enough warm bodies that if you do get FTE you can succeed almost all the time. I don't criticize FE/IB, TMO, or TR, or any of those guilds for going the zerg route. It's basically required.

However, I don't want to join a zerg guild because to me that is not fun. Sure, you get your pixels. But I don't want to 'compete' on tracking and batphoning and have the actual encounters be trivial. Maybe if I was a monk I would think differently, but I actually found most of my VP raids with TMO to be pretty boring. Let me give a few parses:

/GU Phara Dar in 32s, 31k @981dps --- Lazyeyes 4k @134dps (13.66%) --- Quickfingers 4k @127dps (12.9%) --- Undisclosed 4k @114dps (11.24%) --- Flippie 3k @92dps (9.14%) --- Baxter 2k @102dps (7.49%) --- Kautin 2k @65dps (6.42%) --- Zucantiz 2k @56dps (5.15%) --- Solkunar 1k @63dps (4.6%) --- Aalpha 1k @42dps (4.3%) --- Gabobrik 1k @45dps (4.27%)
/GU Phara Dar in 76s, 31k @412dps --- Gabobrik 8k @110dps (25.79%) --- Quickfingers 4k @61dps (13.86%) --- Cecily 4k @57dps (13.27%) --- Sakuragi 4k @54dps (12.96%) --- Luchino 4k @50dps (11.76%) --- Lonegin 3k @42dps (10.15%) --- Geleana 1k @17dps (4.12%) --- Taja 1k @18dps (4.04%) --- Zagum 0k @17dps (1.32%) --- Xarzzardorn 0k @4dps (0.89%)
/GU Phara Dar in 27s, 22k @830dps --- Kitai 3k @198dps (12.35%) --- Undisclosed 2k @98dps (10.03%) --- Jacker 2k @94dps (9.62%) --- Gabobrik 2k @90dps (8.47%) --- Cecily 2k @78dps (7.63%) --- Gollum 1k @64dps (6.62%) --- Biggslick 1k @62dps (6.12%) --- Luchino 1k @50dps (6.01%) --- Kental 1k @59dps (5.78%) --- Crappyfeet 1k @59dps (5.5%)

The one time PD lasted longer than 35 seconds was the time we fought her near her lair and a lot of people got lost and died, so it was like a 25 man engage. Most of the time all I did was sit at the zone in for 15 minutes waiting for the dragon to appear solo and chatting with the FE trainer du jour and then faceroll my keyboard for 30 seconds.

Anyway, I'm think pretty much done with these threads. I've posted my opinions, and no on really likes them. The raid guilds want to keep as many mobs as possible and give as few to the almost-raid-guilds like BDA. The almost-raid-guilds like BDA want to limit the raid guilds as much as possible, while still trumpeting competition so they can out zerg/track the third tier guilds. The third tier guilds want a rotation, but the GMs don't want to enforce one and 1st/2nd tier guilds would rather shit a brick, not to mention that variance would generally fuck the third tier guilds anyway. What we need are mechanics changes to 1) supply a few more mobs for our top-heavy server and 2) give people a chance to compete without tracking and 3) spread guilds out to limit the trains and other douchebaggery and 4) ensure that 2nd and 3rd tier guilds can actually get a raid target every now and again. Gee, this sounds a lot like repops, which I've mentioned many times. But Rogean just wants the players to stop fucking petitioning all the time so he can get back to his real job (reasonable, but I think its easier to enter a few respawn commands than answer petitions).

The whole point of The A-Team was to try and have fun in the fucked up raid scene, and I think we've succeeded.

[Eloian]

Just an idea. Maybe a little bit of Big guild/little guild team up sky action. Sky doesn't get cleared completely often. Helping a little guild start to learn and get keys etc would be good for them. Then/or those smaller guilds could team up and ask for their own sky time. I like when people outside my guild get goodies. I hate seeing stuff rot.

Velious is big, I want those potential future group members to be the best they can when I'm grouped with them. I say this as a guy who solo's 95% of the time. You'd be suprised how many strangers I hunted up Seb keys for. I often have 1st names on only, I don't care who your guild is. Just don't be a dick and don't be greedy.

That said, BDA is an awesome family. They have truly given me my classic experience back and so much more. Love you my brothers and sisters. Rock on.

Eloian Bushlover (neatly trimmed bushes)
57 Ranger <BDA>

[Pint]

i dont think anyone is terribly against your ideas loraen, i just think the goal atm is to find a solution that addresses the current raid scene, not retooling the game to make an entirely new raid scene. simulated repops are awesome and everyone seems to love them, but obviously they are on the back burner while people puzzle our how to fix raiding every other day of the week.

[Splorf22]

i dont think anyone is terribly against your ideas loraen, i just think the goal atm is to find a solution that addresses the current raid scene, not retooling the game to make an entirely new raid scene. simulated repops are awesome and everyone seems to love them, but obviously they are on the back burner while people puzzle our how to fix raiding every other day of the week.

I guess I just don't believe the current raid scene is fixable by the players, and I don't understand why repops are not on the table when Rogean has just demonstrated he can make them happen in 30 seconds of cut and pasted commands. Anyway, you sucked me back in, logging out of the forums for a while :D

[Jarnauga]

http://whokilledit.com/

i see more guilds on that then ever.

with this 2 hour system

True.

That said that week was particular in the sense that TMO was out of the game. We all know that with TMO back, the 2 hours rule would just mean a 50/50 split between FE/IB and TMO.

That's why another rule should be added. I vote that the first week of every month, all raid targets outside of VP should not be killed by FE/IB or TMO. Also all repops should be FTE only.

This is simple enough to not create any loopholes and be easy enough to manage for CSR. Just need for a tracker to take a screenshot with a /time and the track window open with the raid target appearing. If another guild kill it, can screenshot the engage with /time 2 hours later. So much better than fraps !

Just my opinion /shrug

[Argh]

http://whokilledit.com/

i see more guilds on that then ever.

with this 2 hour system

Has nothing to do with the 2 hour system. Everything on there is from the rolling repop, aside from the Trak kill yesterday.

[Nirgon]

You started this thread with wrong information.

I didn't read much but TLDR seems to be that player arrangements are useless because they won't be enforced by staff.

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.

Whatever the majority of raiding guilds agree on WILL be enforced by the staff.

Good to see all the staff on the same page. Lul.

You gonna personally enforce this Rogean? Between now and months from now? Or just tell Derubael and Sirken they have to?

Did you think it all the way through to the point that you realize they may never come to an agreement? Are you going to remove variance now?

Custom rules working as well as custom resists on red inc.

[Clark]

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.

Whatever the majority of raiding guilds agree on WILL be enforced by the staff.

http://s17.postimg.org/cozyh3kzz/onedoesnotsimply_guidio_fist_pump1.jpg

[webrunner5]

We sure as hell don't need any PvP shit. That is pretty much what has happened here to get TMO banned. They were not alone. It has to be fair to everyone or is not worth doing.

I know there will always be a Stronger guild but they don't have to become just total dickheads about it. This game is suppose to be sort of fun, not being one sided and the rest kicking their dog and pissing at their wife. :eek:

[HeallunRumblebelly]

stopped reading there.
FTE shouts have helped and are far from pointless aside from the stalker probe eye bug, I dunno where the hell you been raiding, so I am guessing you do not raid.
In that case than gtfo trying to GM authorize some raid rules or w.e the fuck your trying to do, as i said i stopped reading it when it was obvious troll/noob/non raider/never seen a FTE.

When I talk about FTE shout failings, I suppose I'm specifically referring to CT (and other DT'ing mobs, but mostly CT). CT especially as the DT is hella bugged atm. It seems like on that particular mob it's a damn lotto, the first 1-6 to engage may be the last message to appear depending on how many times he'll DT on engage.

In his particular case, first 15 / first to kill draco worked out quite well and was far less of a shitshow than what we have now.

[Alarti0001]

We sure as hell don't need any PvP shit. That is pretty much what has happened here to get TMO banned. They were not alone. It has to be fair to everyone or is not worth doing.

I know there will always be a Stronger guild but they don't have to become just total dickheads about it. This game is suppose to be sort of fun, not being one sided and the rest kicking their dog and pissing at their wife. :eek:

No what got us banned was 2 people duping...

[loramin]

We also discussed any actions to take against the guild as a whole, taking into consideration other recent events such as another guild member recently banned for heavy RMT inolvement, and an officer recently suspended for ninja looting.

It is based on that information that we are raid suspending the guild for 2 weeks.

The same guild monopolizing raid content for 2 years that they might not even need anymore is ridiculous, just to block other guilds from the chance of gearing up to take on the same end game content.

You seem to have missed something if you think it was just because of 2 people duping.

[DrathMaximus]

Just my 2 cents worth as a non-guild affiliated player atm. The duping 100% required GM intervention as that's a blatant unfair advantage/cheat. As far as raid targets go, IMO this is GM management optional - great if the staff has the time and wants to help raid guilds balance out some on their encounters - however - it is still optional imo and if staff decided they didn't want to get involved policing this, raid encounters would remain as the law of the jungle - 'survival of the fittest'. Which, although anyone not in a top guild (including myself) may become a little (or alot :)) envious of, does not affect fair play, just my 2 cents.
This does not include a guild KSing another - any killl stealing - guild or individual - is against the written server rules, as we all know.

[radditsu]

You seem to have missed something if you think it was just because of 2 people duping.

I thought it was a unilateral method to stop them being jerks...but whatevs

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I thought it was a unilateral method to stop them being jerks...but whatevs

It's this. The same reason FE was raid suspended just prior to it. The guilds take competition to levels that the rest of the server are unwilling to match. The fact that www.eccezan.com exists is testament to that.

[radditsu]

Eccezan.com isnt real tho. Its a joke.

Posting RL info has been done. And that is no joke.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Eccezan.com isnt real tho. Its a joke.

Posting RL info has been done. And that is no joke.

Meh. We all know what HBB looks like. We all saw Amelinda's marshmellows. My town has like 1000 people in it and yall are welcome to come visit anytime. We've got as many females as males who dress as females. Yall *****s just too soft for the raid scene :P

[Alarti0001]

You seem to have missed something if you think it was just because of 2 people duping.

Had nothing to do with raid interference. You seemed to have missed that.

[Tasslehofp99]

Had nothing to do with raid interference. You seemed to have missed that.

Read rogean's op in "Recent events" post, i believe you're mistaken my friend.

Do you think rogean would hold your raid suspension over your guild until you agree to play nice with everyone else if you only were suspended for duping? Be real.


I like jarnauga's idea the best. Keep the 2 hour delay thing going, but have FEIB/TMO sit out the first or last week of non-VP mobs, rotating from first to last week each month.



This seems to work for everyone I think who is willing to put in the effort (reasonable amount) to raid. The only issue I see is the extended variance taking away spawns from those first and last weeks, potentially. Perhaps if you remove extended variance, then have a side agreement between guilds when a mob goes down to the wire. Perhaps a simple /random for first shot, with consideration being given to guilds who haven't killed the mob in the last 2 spawns first.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I don't see the value in a 2 hour delay to smaller guilds.

FE and TMO can both dispatch any target far faster than all other guilds. This is due partly to the depth of resources (alts, gear, time-zoned players, etc.) and to their dedication in tracking under a variance system. The 2 hour delay will simply default to a rotation between the two guilds. If one guild does not race to a target, why are we to think that the other guild will move more slowly? It is certainly true that a 3rd guild can get the target if both guilds do not kill it, but that is a result of conscious choice on the part of FE or TMO choosing to back off that target. It has nothing to do with the 2 hour restriction itself.

The 2 hour delay adds nothing to the casual guild that does not partake in the tracking game. The goal of these discussions is to arrive at a solution that is acceptable to all guilds elite and casual alike. Delays do nothing for the casual. Those who will not track 24/7 can only protected by plans such as guaranteed raiding times like "the first 7 days of the month" or scheduled repops with restrictions (certain guilds cannot engage this repop, or no more than 3 kills per guild per repop, etc.)

[Tasslehofp99]

Yeah, I guess 2 hours is a bit long.
What if it was a rule like no guild can kill 2/3 consecutive spawns of one mob?

For example TMO kills trak, sits out next one. Fe/IB kills trak next spawn, sits out next one. Now neither FE/IB or TMO can raid the next trak(3rd spawn, 2 since TMO last killed,) he spawns and whoever is capable goes and kills it. That is 3 trakanons, on the 4th TMO would then be eligible to partake...then the 5th FE/IB could go again.


Well after I typed that up it sounded more like a rotation than I originally imagined, but it still seems like a good idea to me.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I see issue with any system that precludes one guild but not the other from any single kill.

If you preclude TMO, FE gets the kill. If you cut out FE, TMO gets it. The idea here is to preserve the elite guild's competitive game while simultaneously enabling casuals to experience the content on a reasonable basis.

Time limits seem to have a lot of support, but another problem with the time limits is how on earth do you know when the 2 hours are up? This means that guilds who are restricted by the timer must still track and start a stopwatch. This removes the impetus to track that target and means that a rotation between FE and TMO becomes even more likely. It's not my turn to kill Sev? Eh, I'll not track it. meaning whichever guild is "up" is definitely going to track the free loots.

The issues casuals have is the tracking and fast engages by ALL uber guilds. Unless you remove the tracking component and the uber competition, we're not going to meaningfully enable casuals.

[kotton05]

I can see taken and bda, being able to mobilize within 2 hours of a spawn, unless its super late.

[Alarti0001]

Read rogean's op in "Recent events" post, i believe you're mistaken my friend.

Do you think rogean would hold your raid suspension over your guild until you agree to play nice with everyone else if you only were suspended for duping? Be real.



Read rogean's post there isn't mention of any raid interference.

[Tasslehofp99]

Read rogean's post there isn't mention of any raid interference.

You're right, but obviously the old situation wasn't working out.

You started this thread with wrong information.

I didn't read much but TLDR seems to be that player arrangements are useless because they won't be enforced by staff.

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.

Whatever the majority of raiding guilds agree on WILL be enforced by the staff.

However if your raid suspension was solely due to the duping; why would there be an extension of said suspension until a new raid scene arrangement is agreed upon?

Perhaps I'm missing something, let me know if so.

Either way I'm glad that some change is hopefully on the horizon for the server.

[Alarti0001]

You're right, but obviously the old situation wasn't working out.



However if your raid suspension was solely due to the duping; why would there be an extension of said suspension until a new raid scene arrangement is agreed upon?

Perhaps I'm missing something, let me know if so.

Either way I'm glad that some change is hopefully on the horizon for the server.

Ask the staff they are as confused as us.

[Nirgon]

^ Rogean should follow through on dictating and enforcing this or stay out of it. Staff enforced rotations aren't classic. Velious will do more good than any of this.

Giving another mess for Sirken and Derubael to deal with is crazy. Further, with such a rotation variance should be removed. That's something I'm sure Rogean isn't willing to do. What a mess.

[JackFlash]

Staff enforced rotations aren't classic

I keep hearing this....

Plenty of servers had rotations. GM's weren't needed to keep them until the occasional guild stepped out of the box and said F the rotation. P99 is a very different environment.

As it's been said before (it's not 1999 anymore) we know everything, have a million toons each, and essentially the mystery is gone. Staff enforced (player derived) seems to be the best option left. They already tried the laissez-faire approach :)

[Nirgon]

Never such a thing as a staff enforced rotation.

[-Catherin-]

No reason why we cant just pool some ideas, and try the best few out for a couple weeks at a time. See which idea works best in practice, not just in theory

[JackFlash]

Never such a thing as a staff enforced rotation.

Regardless, we are heading that way. If we had the same situation in 1999 I'm sure they wouldn't have sat idly by while their community went to shit. I'm glad R is finally standing up to it.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

No reason why we cant just pool some ideas, and try the best few out for a couple weeks at a time. See which idea works best in practice, not just in theory

Because there is no one objectively 'best'. CSR 'best' would be to not have to be involved, tmo best is going to vary wildly from taken best. And as we've seen proposed, people know exactly what will work in their interests and what will not because we have 3 years of kunark raid data behind it.

[Daldolma]

Never such a thing as a staff enforced rotation.

Quellious GMs both mandated and enforced an NToV rotation in early Velious.

[khanable]

Point system.

No guild should be getting more than 25% of the world spawns in a given month (excluding VP).

Sorry TMO -- you've had 2 years of near complete lock down outside of maybe one other guild getting 20% of the spawns and a handful of others getting, what, 1-4%?

Your own website is testament to this.

[Nirgon]

Quellious GMs both mandated and enforced an NToV rotation in early Velious.

Never played there. Find a few more staff to help spread the load.

Point system.

No guild should be getting more than 25% of the world spawns in a given month (excluding VP).

Sorry TMO -- you've had 2 years of near complete lock down outside of maybe one other guild getting 20% of the spawns and a handful of others getting, what, 1-4%?

Your own website is testament to this.

They sure did put in a lot of time and effort.

[khanable]

They sure did put in a lot of time and effort.

So much effort camping 50 toons at every spawn, that they bought apparently with duped plat
So much effort training the fuck out of anyone who walked into VP
So much effort starting CT DT cycles when they didn't have the kite
So much effort having 3 retards stall tank something

TMO didn't put in "effort". They griefed and played a game of 'who can be the bigger asshole and not get caught' for 2+ years.

They whine and bitch about having "competition" -- what competition? Who can click a DA idol and get yellow text faster? That's competition? What a load of shit.

[fishingme]

Never played there. Find a few more staff to help spread the load.



They sure did put in a lot of time and effort.

there was more staff, but TMO helped drive them off the server.

[cyryllis]

Bring back bort, if only for the constant illusions, arena events, and other events...oh and the best name ever

[Alarti0001]

So much effort camping 50 toons at every spawn, that they bought apparently with duped plat
So much effort training the fuck out of anyone who walked into VP
So much effort starting CT DT cycles when they didn't have the kite
So much effort having 3 retards stall tank something

TMO didn't put in "effort". They griefed and played a game of 'who can be the bigger asshole and not get caught' for 2+ years.

They whine and bitch about having "competition" -- what competition? Who can click a DA idol and get yellow text faster? That's competition? What a load of shit.

The yankees and red sox are griefing baseball?

[Dragonmist]

Rogean Strikes Again... Kaplow!

[Clark]

Quellious GMs both mandated and enforced an NToV rotation in early Velious.

:cool:

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Quellious GMs both mandated and enforced an NToV rotation in early Velious.

That would have been between vis maior and lotus cult? There wasn't a third at that time, if I remember correctly. Wraith-Rev (guild I was in) was just reforming at that point.

Guilds used to self-destruct back then too. Players were far more reckless in their immaturity. Today, everyone is "smart dumb." Back then, you could count on the norm of just old-fashioned "dumb."

[Nirgon]

Who can hit a ball harder or throw it faster? What a load of shit!

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Is there any reason you've got a hard on for social Darwinism on this server? People with no lives and too much time on their hands "deserve" to monopolize raid content? Why not just make the whole thing fucking red, then, so the rest of us can kill them and take their shit? That's the way the real world works, after all.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/50/50258361b5be8d10fc51a25454a2aa10db13ed842069d2938e d64b990f622a9c.jpg

[Barkingturtle]

The yankees and red sox are griefing baseball?

Really poor analogy for the point you're struggling to make.

A-Rod, Clemens, Manny, Petitte -- these teams elected to employ some of the worst cheaters ever. Are you saying those who cheat longest without being caught are deserving of rewards?

The Yankees are so destructive, they were forced to pay almost 30mil in luxury tax this season. That's like the P99 staff forcing top raid-guilds to tithe 10% of their raid proceeds to smaller market clubs like The A-Team or the Minnesota Twins.

Maybe stick to non-sports analogies.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Really poor analogy for the point you're struggling to make.

A-Rod, Clemens, Manny, Petitte -- these teams elected to employ some of the worst cheaters ever. Are you saying those who cheat longest without being caught are deserving of rewards?

The Yankees are so destructive, they were forced to pay almost 30mil in luxury tax this season. That's like the P99 staff forcing top raid-guilds to tithe 10% of their raid proceeds to smaller market clubs like The A-Team or the Minnesota Twins.

Maybe stick to non-sports analogies.

I'm confused, why are these guys cheaters? If it's the performance enhancing drugs...literally everyone in baseball takes performance enhancing drugs. Yankees just got the best docs. We've really got to move beyond the whole PED issue and realize that we're chemical beings o_O

[Barkingturtle]

I'm confused, why are these guys cheaters? If it's the performance enhancing drugs...literally everyone in baseball takes performance enhancing drugs. Yankees just got the best docs. We've really got to move beyond the whole PED issue and realize that we're chemical beings o_O

Cheating is not justifiable merely because someone else is doing it. This is something we learn as we mature, in life and in Norrath.

[sedrie.bellamie]

1) supply a few more mobs for our top-heavy server and 2) give people a chance to compete without tracking and 3) spread guilds out to limit the trains and other douchebaggery and 4) ensure that 2nd and 3rd tier guilds can actually get a raid target every now and again.

1) there are plenty of raid targets
2) tracking is the byproduct of variance
3) release velious
4) how about those 2nd or 3rd tier guilds compete instead of asking for handouts

A-Team should just shout in EC auction to buy proxy spots to fight raid mobs.. oh wait they have done that already. You know, smaller guilds could merge and step up and compete. I think that is what some guilds called TMO and DA did to take down the first IB. So if Azure Guard and the A-team want to take down TMO, you know they might have to actually put in some work.

TL;DR do some work instead of asking for handouts

[Seltius]

And that's where you're wrong, and exactly why I told TMO they need to come to an arrangement, because they aren't coming off raid suspension until they do.



When did this go from a 2 week raid suspension to an indefinite raid suspension based on all the raid guilds coming up with a working solution to a broken raid scene. The problem is everyone I have read comments from in the top few raid guilds wants it worked out to where they/we don't sacrifice competition for free handouts. The lower few raiding guilds(im sorry im not trying to offend anyone just don't know a better way to describe them) seem to want a rotation or timers to give them shots at the mobs. The lowest skyraiding guild wants the target to be handed to them and to be allowed to do them without any competition.

Your post says that until everyone agrees including TMO that TMO will be unable to raid. This is unacceptable since it basically means that a working arrangement has to be come up with first and then agreed on by all guilds including TMO. This isn't fair to any of the guilds as this really needs to be hammered out to help everyone not just the guilds that want to break into the endgame raid scene or that don't want to compete for mobs.(Edit-In rereading this I realized it may offend a few guilds I wasn't intentionally trying to offend. It is a little coarser than I intended it to be I have edited it to try and better clarify)

That being said.

The real solution to this would be to release Velious and then the guilds would all spread out to new raid targets. There would be a lot more to kill and no one would get bored. There would still be complaining as that is the nature of society and humanity is some people are never happy. You cant make everyone happy when you have this many different people together in one place.

Now that being said I put this to you who have been promising Velious for years now from what I've been told. I haven't been playing long enough to have been told it was coming out soon. Though I have heard Velious was coming out by the end of the year. And even it was coming out in the next few months. Which is easier to do get 600+ people to all agree to a set of rules that may or may not benefit them. In the process basically holding a guild hostage on their agreement to whatever rules are set forth by their peers. Or to finish an expansion and release it to be beta tested and correct the bugs as it goes? Hell when SoV was originally released there were more than a few encounters that didn't have itemization and didn't work correctly. There were more than a few bugs and some things did work for months to years afterwards. This is the last expansion from the live game that you will be releasing. Release it and spend the next 4 years polishing it. Then add new content you make or release a new server with all the bugs worked out.

This really seems like the easier option since it will also allow you to see the bugs first hand instead of just looking at code trying to figure out if its correct or not. You have a few very skilled people programming the code now when you could have 1k maybe/maybe not so skilled but experienced gamers testing it finding the bugs and making you aware of them. With a beta test also you wouldn't have to worry about people getting upset if you rolled back after finding a major bug or removed anything that was achieved through exploitation. It alleviates some of the issues and gives you a chance also to see who and what might exploit or be exploited later.

In the end its up to you this is your server you will do what you want or have to do. But I don't think the responses here and in other threads have helped this server or your image. If I didn't know a little of what was going on in game and see what you and others are referring to I would find another game to play before going to one where the mob mentality is the way it is here. I swear I thought about opening a pitchfork and torches store in East Commonlands forum.

TL;DR then this post wasn't directed at you anyway. Hopefully the powers that be in this game will read it and understand its not against or about them. Its about the players that they are trying to help.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

When did this go from a 2 week raid suspension to an indefinite raid suspension based on all the raid guilds coming up with a working solution to a broken raid scene. The problem is everyone I have read comments from in the top few raid guilds wants it worked out to where they/we don't sacrifice competition for free handouts. The lower few raiding guilds(im sorry im not trying to offend anyone just don't know a better way to describe them) seem to want a rotation or timers to give them shots at the mobs. The lowest skyraiding guild wants the target to be handed to them and to be allowed to do them without any competition.

Your post says that until everyone agrees including TMO that TMO will be unable to raid. This is unacceptable since it basically means that a working arrangement has to be come up with first and then agreed on by all guilds including TMO. This isn't fair to any of the guilds as this really needs to be hammered out to help everyone not just the guilds that want to break into the endgame raid scene or that don't want to compete for mobs.(Edit-In rereading this I realized it may offend a few guilds I wasn't intentionally trying to offend. It is a little coarser than I intended it to be I have edited it to try and better clarify)

That being said.

The real solution to this would be to release Velious and then the guilds would all spread out to new raid targets. There would be a lot more to kill and no one would get bored. There would still be complaining as that is the nature of society and humanity is some people are never happy. You cant make everyone happy when you have this many different people together in one place.

Now that being said I put this to you who have been promising Velious for years now from what I've been told. I haven't been playing long enough to have been told it was coming out soon. Though I have heard Velious was coming out by the end of the year. And even it was coming out in the next few months. Which is easier to do get 600+ people to all agree to a set of rules that may or may not benefit them. In the process basically holding a guild hostage on their agreement to whatever rules are set forth by their peers. Or to finish an expansion and release it to be beta tested and correct the bugs as it goes? Hell when SoV was originally released there were more than a few encounters that didn't have itemization and didn't work correctly. There were more than a few bugs and some things did work for months to years afterwards. This is the last expansion from the live game that you will be releasing. Release it and spend the next 4 years polishing it. Then add new content you make or release a new server with all the bugs worked out.

This really seems like the easier option since it will also allow you to see the bugs first hand instead of just looking at code trying to figure out if its correct or not. You have a few very skilled people programming the code now when you could have 1k maybe/maybe not so skilled but experienced gamers testing it finding the bugs and making you aware of them. With a beta test also you wouldn't have to worry about people getting upset if you rolled back after finding a major bug or removed anything that was achieved through exploitation. It alleviates some of the issues and gives you a chance also to see who and what might exploit or be exploited later.

In the end its up to you this is your server you will do what you want or have to do. But I don't think the responses here and in other threads have helped this server or your image. If I didn't know a little of what was going on in game and see what you and others are referring to I would find another game to play before going to one where the mob mentality is the way it is here. I swear I thought about opening a pitchfork and torches store in East Commonlands forum.

TL;DR then this post wasn't directed at you anyway. Hopefully the powers that be in this game will read it and understand its not against or about them. Its about the players that they are trying to help.

We'd have the same issue with ST key mobs. I think people aren't looking for a repeat of the vp key situation so many on this server have--everything but the trak tooth. I'd imagine they'd ask for rotations on mobs with keys like that so they are also able to rotate st bosses, but who knows :p

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Key mobs like Trak and Velious dragons should be fully competitive, as should the ST/VP. That is the only way to prevent end game staleness

I'm sure it'll be discussed, but I'm gonna wager that being blocked out of the highest tier zones by default is something that will be mentioned.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

^ dis. When I tell people about P99 I have to also tell them that they will probably also quit at 60 due to the raid scene. Hoping it doesn't always come down to that but who knows--we simply got too many raiders for not enough content, even with velious. We've got enough raiders for like 4-5 PVE servers to keep on daily lockdown, honestly, but that'd spread out the leveling population to such a degree it'd kill the new blood.

[Derubael]

just don't know a better way to describe them


casual scum

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Some evidence for the court, your honor

http://i.imgur.com/CZhahUL.png?1

[phacemeltar]

everyone in top raiding guilds should get permadeath if over level 50. thatll stop all the tears.

[Aviann]

Was it my curse words that caused my posts to be deleted? Or was it the truth?

[Derubael]

It was you calling people homophobic slurs.

Keep that shit in RnF. If you want to spit 'the truth' do it without being an asshole.

[Aviann]

It was you calling people homophobic slurs.

Keep that shit in RnF. If you want to spit 'the truth' do it without being an asshole.

It'd be nice if a GM stepped up and told TMO this about the raid scene a year ago.

[phacemeltar]

If you want to spit 'the truth' do it without being an asshole.

the only thing assholes "spit" is shit.

[Alarti0001]

It'd be nice if a GM stepped up and told TMO this about the raid scene a year ago.

All the GM's are in TMO

[Aviann]

All the GM's are in TMO

Please, tell us more.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

All the GM's are in TMO

After the whole Amelinda thing we really don't make jokes about that anymore :3

[Alarti0001]

After the whole Amelinda thing we really don't make jokes about that anymore :3

You mean where Amelinda was paid by IB?

[HeallunRumblebelly]

You mean where Amelinda was paid by IB?

It was both. Paid by IB and courted by Tiggles :3

[Alarti0001]

It was both. Paid by IB and courted by Tiggles :3

Except IB was proven to have received benefits, while TMO got suspended twice under Amelinda.

=) Thanks for playing.

[Jay F Kay]

Except IB was proven to have received benefits, while TMO got suspended twice under Amelinda.

=) Thanks for playing.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128511


=) Thanks for playing.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128511


=) Thanks for playing.

...Proved it?

[Hodge]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/d7cefb367fced06e76387ddacd5dc1c3/tumblr_mkms76iLlE1qhotb6o1_500.gif

[Seltius]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seltius View Post
just don't know a better way to describe them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cucumbers
casual scum


At no point was I saying anything about the casual players. I play casually when I can and enjoy the people I meet along the way. I do find it amusing that you picked a part that was trying to explain a lack of coming up with the right words and turn it into an inflammatory post.


This isn't about the casual players this is about the guilds that want to play and raid. When I think about casual I think about people that are just playing when they can and are experiencing what the raiding guilds here are missing which is the relaxing and just hanging out. I have never heard of a casual raiding guild. Unless it stuck to targets that respawned quickly or were left up in whatever game it was playing. Casual in itself is the anathema of a Raiding Guild. Since you cant casually raid a mob that spawns once every 7 days and 6 other guilds want.

[Derubael]

'Casual Scum' is a term of endearment. 'Casual Scum' call themselves 'Casual Scum' because it's a sarcastic joke that casuals = scum.

I don't think anyone actually uses 'casual scum' in a literal sense. I <3 all of our 'casual scum', and I hope they continue to scum up the raid scene for a long time to come. Keep on bein scummy, 'casual scum'.

[quido]

surely some are scum!

[cyryllis]

All casual scum are created equal, some are just more equal than others

[Derubael]

surely some are scum!

silence, 'hardcore scum'

[HeallunRumblebelly]

All casual scum are created equal, some are just more equal than others

two raids/month goood, four raids/month baaaad.

[radditsu]

Abortions for some. Tiny American flags for others

[Alarti0001]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128511


=) Thanks for playing.

Lol kid...there you go taking a tiggles post as factual information. L2rnf

[Retti_]

discussions you say?

sig.

[Silentone]

Wow, p99 drama. miss this shit, good read would read again. miss all my friends, and enemies all alike.