Raid Scene Poll

[Splorf22]

Doing this yet again in light of new changes. All options are independent, so you can as many as you like.

Xasten-style bag limit: Guilds are restricted to a certain number of targets per week (somewhere just south of 50% probably)

Sloan-style 2 hour delays: Any guild that kills a target will wait at least two hours before engaging it the next time it pops.

No poopsocking: Guilds agree not to camp huge armies of fully buffed toons on the spawn points of raid targets. 'In window raids', e.g. juggs when Trakanon is in window, will not last more than 1 hour per spawn. Coh teams are fine.

Simultaneous Repops: Guildleaders of every major guild sign a petition asking for simultaneous repops every week or so.

Reduced Variance: Major guild leaders sign a petition asking for variance to be reduced by 75% (IMO only works if you check 'no poopsocking')

[-Catherin-]

Variances reduced or at the very least get rid of these extended variances. Variance does its job by preventing people from using auto-fire to get FTE on targets every single time when they know the second the target is going to spawn. (We have learned for this reason that some variance is good, nobles cycle in sky being an example) the same guild, even the same person, would get FTE every single time, outnumbered or not. All you need is a low ping and some kind of autofure going to win. these huge extended variances however just make things very not fun for everyone.

To be honest id want variance reduction AND some kind of civil agreement to not monopolize

[Splorf22]

Whats remarkable to me is how few people are against poopsocking. I don't think Rogean will accept too much reduction in variance unless the guilds promise not to engage in FTE retardation/poopsocking etc.

[Ravager]

I'll have everything on the menu. IMO, the raid scene is broken. Spend a few months trying everything and see what works. The only thing that doesn't work is doing nothing.

[Sirken]

two things all the guilds should try to hammer out and agree to do,

Stop training
Respect FTE messages

[Splorf22]

two things all the guilds should try to hammer out and agree to do,

Stop training
Respect FTE messages

Easy to do those during repops when guilds are in different zones :cool:

[Alarti0001]

two things all the guilds should try to hammer out and agree to do,

Stop training
Respect FTE messages

[happyhappy]

I don't think a single solution would work, a healthy mix of all the above in addition to "not being a young lawyer" would most likely yield the best results.

[Ella`Ella]

two things all the guilds should try to hammer out and agree to do,

Stop training
Respect FTE messages

This is really the only option that should be on the poll.

[kotton05]

Yes to Sloan style and yes to sirken, reducing variance would make it way easier to rotate as well.

[Nirgon]

Variance + calendar lol

[Hitpoint]

Sloan style delays is by far the best thing imo. Nothing else needed.

Edit: Well, reduced variance also actually. At least cut regular windows in half.

[Versus]

Thought repops were going to go in a few months back? Would still promote competition yet split mobs up.

[khanable]

sloan delays + reduce variance + weekly repops

[Ravager]

Weekly or Bi-weekly repops would go a long way, especially now that there's no training in VP.

[pharmakos]

i voted for:

- Xasten-style bag limit
- Sloan-style 2 hour delays
- Simultaneous Repops
- Reduced Variance

imo anti-poopsocking isn't needed if we do a bag limit and 2 hour delays

[Kagatob]

two things all the guilds should try to hammer out and agree to do,

Stop training
Respect FTE messages

FTE not classic.

[Millburn]

The whole 2 hour delay thing is brilliant in my opinion and probably the most simple solution to a lot of problems.

It doesn't dissuade competition, if anything it promotes a healthier competitive environment.

[quido]

Will need to think it over a while.

[heartbrand]

I vote for app red dawn on red99

[Splorf22]

The whole 2 hour delay thing is brilliant in my opinion and probably the most simple solution to a lot of problems.

My problem with the two hour delays (and this is not a knock on Unbrella or Sloan or anyone else who came up with it) is that you still have to track targets for 48 hours on average. I just refuse to do that.

[kotton05]

Jeremy I have an awesome solution to all this just you wait

[Autotune]

Give every guild a weekly allowance (certain amount) let's say 100.

Give every raid target a value based on demand, let's say PD is valued at 50.

Any guild that takes out PD is now left with only 50 raid allowance.

Then just go from there. CT/Inny/VS/ could all be set at 30. VP dragons (except PD) could be 10s along with Kunark world dragons. Draco could be a 15. Vox/Naggy/maestro 10s.

DKP yo!

IDK, something like that could easily be tracked and gives some weekly planning by each guild.

[Ravager]

Give every guild a weekly allowance (certain amount) let's say 100.

Give every raid target a value based on demand, let's say PD is valued at 50.

Any guild that takes out PD is now left with only 50 raid allowance.

Then just go from there. CT/Inny/VS/ could all be set at 30. VP dragons (except PD) could be 10s along with Kunark world dragons. Draco could be a 15. Vox/Naggy/maestro 10s.

DKP yo!

IDK, something like that could easily be tracked and gives some weekly planning by each guild.

Not bad.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Give every guild a weekly allowance (certain amount) let's say 100.

Give every raid target a value based on demand, let's say PD is valued at 50.

Any guild that takes out PD is now left with only 50 raid allowance.

Then just go from there. CT/Inny/VS/ could all be set at 30. VP dragons (except PD) could be 10s along with Kunark world dragons. Draco could be a 15. Vox/Naggy/maestro 10s.

DKP yo!

IDK, something like that could easily be tracked and gives some weekly planning by each guild.

That's kind of interesting... sort of like a weighted version of Xasten's idea.

[Nlaar]

That's kind of interesting... sort of like a weighted version of Xasten's idea.

I kinda like it.

[Splorf22]

reasonable idea

The difference between me and 95% of the rest of the people in this thread is that I am more concerned with making the raid scene fun than I am with dividing the pixels evenly.

[Barkingturtle]

I really like that idea because I really like spreadsheets.

Seriously though, good idea; a nice combination of clarity and flexibility while still allowing guilds to exercise a number of strategies in the race for pixels.

[Millburn]

I think trying to divide things equally is a bit of a step in the wrong direction. I think you need to make a system that promotes competition but also naturally deters monopolies. This is someone who doesn't actively raid right now so take that with a grain of salt.

[Autotune]

The difference between me and 95% of the rest of the people in this thread is that I am more concerned with making the raid scene fun than I am with dividing the pixels evenly.

I think everyone here knows I prefer the cutthroat raiding scene, but what I posted is something I'd be willing to go with. It's not about cutting the pie evenly so much and it brings some strategy into the mix while also limiting the amount that a guild can monopolize the raid scene.

Poopsocking definitely needs to be made a raid offence by the server staff and players. Should definitely carry a huge penalty. I'd say if something like what I mentioned was implemented, poopsocking should carry a heavy weight/cost and should be taken from a guild for poopsocking regardless if they kill the target or not. It's the worst thing about raiding on p99 right up under tracking the long variance windows.

[kotton05]

I'm going to drop a bomb tonight

[Gnomersy]

Give every guild a weekly allowance (certain amount) let's say 100.

Give every raid target a value based on demand, let's say PD is valued at 50.

Any guild that takes out PD is now left with only 50 raid allowance.

Then just go from there. CT/Inny/VS/ could all be set at 30. VP dragons (except PD) could be 10s along with Kunark world dragons. Draco could be a 15. Vox/Naggy/maestro 10s.

DKP yo!

IDK, something like that could easily be tracked and gives some weekly planning by each guild.

add an FFA day right before the week restarts. ensures nothing is left up

[Autotune]

add an FFA day right before the week restarts. ensures nothing is left up

I'd be more inclined to say instead of an FFA day, that it would be a free joint raid day. Allow guilds to come and raid together and just random the loot off to any one present that isn't part of a large raid guild that took out targets that week.

Promote some server cohesion

[Millburn]

I'd be more inclined to say instead of an FFA day, that it would be a free joint raid day. Allow guilds to come and raid together and just random the loot off to any one present that isn't part of a large raid guild that took out targets that week.

Promote some server cohesion

That's a beautiful idea.

[Lojik]

I think a big problem is there just isn't enough for high levels to do. I'd really want to see 24 hour repops (+-2 hours) on targets but reduce the drop rates (1/7 or 1/5 depending on the normal spawn time of the mob.) Give people more stuff to do but not increase the flow of pixels.

[Kagatob]

oh look at that, some great ideas. Is it just a coincidence that all of those good ideas eliminate the need for FTE?

[Elements]

Suggesting the first spawn each month for certain targets be left to a FFA for guilds that do not compete for targets otherwise. This first spawn be left for 24 hours so more casual guilds have a chance to mobilize for them. After that mobs are contested for the rest of the month and people start respecting the FTE and no training rules. If guilds try to contest mobs for the remainder of the month then they are not eligible for the first spawns of the next month until it has been up for 24 hours.

If the casual guilds want to agree to rotate the first spawn of the month between them then so be it.

[Frieza_Prexus]

An ideal solution will simultaneously promote both hardcore and casual environments. My hunting limits idea (which is just one of many viable solutions) was paired with restricted simulated patches for a reason. The normal hours of the server cater to the hardcore crowd who can keep going like before, but the addition of regular repops that are carefully restricted will open up raiding opportunities to a large group of casuals.

The hardcore crowd will not dissipate just as the casuals have not disappeared despite hardcore dominance. If this is going to work, both sides need fair consideraton.

[Autotune]

An ideal solution will simultaneously promote both hardcore and casual environments. My hunting limits idea (which is just one of many viable solutions) was paired with restricted simulated patches for a reason. The normal hours of the server cater to the hardcore crowd who can keep going like before, but the addition of regular repops that are carefully restricted will open up raiding opportunities to a large group of casuals.

The hardcore crowd will not dissipate just as the casuals have not disappeared despite hardcore dominance. If this is going to work, both sides need fair consideraton.

My suggestion would work with or without repops, but would definitely work better with repops.

[Splorf22]

An ideal solution will simultaneously promote both hardcore and casual environments. My hunting limits idea (which is just one of many viable solutions) was paired with restricted simulated patches for a reason. The normal hours of the server cater to the hardcore crowd who can keep going like before, but the addition of regular repops that are carefully restricted will open up raiding opportunities to a large group of casuals.

The hardcore crowd will not dissipate just as the casuals have not disappeared despite hardcore dominance. If this is going to work, both sides need fair consideraton.

Again, I'm not nearly so concerned with going for an equitable distribution of mobs as I am about making the raid scene fun.

Poopsocking and huge tracking windows are simply not fun.

[radditsu]

Will need to think it over a while.

Geromy I rrespect ya dawg. Do right.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Again, I'm not nearly so concerned with going for an equitable distribution of mobs as I am about making the raid scene fun.

Poopsocking and huge tracking windows are simply not fun.

I agree fully. I think restricted repops are the best possible thing that casuals could have because it can be planned around, and the more competitive guilds will leave them alone to a large extent.

[heartbrand]

If only there was a server where people could compete for mobs based upon their skill and planning and not luck.

[kotton05]

I agree fully. I think restricted repops are the best possible thing that casuals could have because it can be planned around, and the more competitive guilds will leave them alone to a large extent.

There needs to be an incentive like trak is always a FFa and after you get like 4 in a row you get an uncontested dragon in VP

[Frieza_Prexus]

There needs to be an incentive like trak is always a FFa and after you get like 4 in a row you get an uncontested dragon in VP

What do you mean? I'm not sure I follow you. Hardcore guilds that desire standard competition have proven they have their own incentive under the normal competitive model. The real issue is monopolization that precludes casuals. It is not an issue of incentive for casual guilds; it is an issue of accessibility. Having normal server hours remain the same with restricted repops will provide a fair playing field of accessibility for casuals who will no doubt greatly enjoy the pressure-free raiding environment it affords them.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

20 minute unhindered raid window for a competing guild to take first shot, if your guild got the previous kill. Naturally, next spawn that guild has to step aside for 20 minutes. The spawns start to distribute this way with a minimum amount of CS work.

Only one member of competing guild X in zone at spawn? Well, they got 20 minutes. Not 20 minutes to get ready, but 20 minutes to engage or lose the spawn. If they wipe, so sorry, try again next time.

This is how my guild did shit in eq1, and during the early years of eq2, when contested content still existed and was the best loot. It kept the peace. We still got 90% of the kills, and 100% of the really hard mobs.

But at least the competition had a window of opportunity. Not our problem if they could not execute.

The 20 minute window can be tuned up or down. Maybe it is too much. Maybe it is too little. A properly batphoned modern guild should be able to get online and in zone in 20 minutes, if they have their act together -- that is, they actually are hungry for that mob, and have people camped nearby and ready to log on at the ringing of the mighty batphone.

30 minutes if we want to be carebear.

This rule would not help encounters which require significant clearing. But this is an easy, low-cs rule that suits single-spawn contesteds just fine. Give the poor fuckers a shot, then when they wipe, kill it in front of them

Everyone logs off happy.

edit: I am assuming we are not looking at a situation where 3, 4, or 5 guilds are actually going to be able to muster in 20 minutes. Simpler version: if your guild got the previous spawn, any other guild who can muster and engage (not kite) in 20 minutes gets that window of time to make an unhindered attempt. If they get the kill, next spawn they are the ones who have to give the window.

I call this "giving someone the window," which sounds faintly dirty.

[Frieza_Prexus]

20 minute unhindered raid window for a competing guild to take first shot, if your guild got the previous kill.

The issues I see here are what Loraen said. First, it does not eliminate tracking and socking. Secondly, FE and TMO can down any target in the game in under 20 minutes which essentially sets up a rotation between the two guilds that would rather compete amongst each other. Finally, this does not open the scene to casuals in any meaningful way.

[Splorf22]

Merkk, I don't think you are quite seeing the issue. Suppose you are a new player and you want to get into the raid scene on P1999.

You get to track. 17 targets x 2 days on average -> over 800 hours per week of sitting there watching linoleum peel.
You must join a huge guild. Not only must the tracking be distributed, but the targets can spawn 24/7, so you need to be worldwide so that you can field a decent sized force at all hours.
You have to level/gear not just one character, but many. Mobs like Trakanon and Venril Sathir are simply impossible to get if you don't have a character camped on their spawn point.

Everyone shits on TMO because they kept farming and gearing up their 4th alts (and I can see where this is coming from) but the current raid mechanics gave them a huge incentive to do so.Basically everyone in this thread is voting for the options that will give them the most pixels. Unbrella thinks we don't need any changes because FE is build to compete under the current rules. He knows that after TMO comes back it'll basically be FE and TMO rotating targets. I don't hold that against him: everyone looks out for themselves and I look out for me. My point is: I don't care if The A-Team loses a ton of races AS LONG AS THAT COMPETITION IS BASICALLY FUN. What does that mean?:

No tracking
No poopsocking / massive camping of alts
No FTE retardation with 200 people on the spawn

So how can we achieve this: simultaneous repops + reduced variance + people agreeing not to be retards about camping out characters.

/rant off.

[Lazie]

It's just good the discussion is finally being had. Do good with it guys.

[Autotune]

What do you mean? I'm not sure I follow you. Hardcore guilds that desire standard competition have proven they have their own incentive under the normal competitive model. The real issue is monopolization that precludes casuals. It is not an issue of incentive for casual guilds; it is an issue of accessibility. Having normal server hours remain the same with restricted repops will provide a fair playing field of accessibility for casuals who will no doubt greatly enjoy the pressure-free raiding environment it affords them.

I think competition should be tiered. Bag limits like you and I suggest will accomplish this and repops will help even more.

Once a guild starts acquiring more raid loot and have practice raiding competition more in line with their own abilities, they'll grow and be able to compete for higher teired raid targets.

I'm sure <Freeport Community College> would not like to "compete" against a stacked opponent like <Inglorious Basterds> on Sev.

Edit: The reason most don't want to "compete" is because of the possibility of wasting hundreds of man hours per week for the gain of absolutely nothing. That is how p99 raiding is set up and no one can change that but the staff.

[radditsu]

Classic...ish... +-4hours variance if an agreement is in place imo

[harold banana]

blue server = all faggots

[Autotune]

blue server = all faggots

look at this original guy, so original, like original lays chips, fucking salty original cuntscab.

[Messianic]

I appreciate that these polls always have a "Bush knocked down the towers" option. Great for guys like me who don't care enough to answer a poll, except when there's an option which amuses me.

[Elements]

Merkk, I don't think you are quite seeing the issue. Suppose you are a new player and you want to get into the raid scene on P1999.

You get to track. 17 targets x 2 days on average -> over 800 hours per week of sitting there watching linoleum peel.
You must join a huge guild. Not only must the tracking be distributed, but the targets can spawn 24/7, so you need to be worldwide so that you can field a decent sized force at all hours.
You have to level/gear not just one character, but many. Mobs like Trakanon and Venril Sathir are simply impossible to get if you don't have a character camped on their spawn point.

Everyone shits on TMO because they kept farming and gearing up their 4th alts (and I can see where this is coming from) but the current raid mechanics gave them a huge incentive to do so.Basically everyone in this thread is voting for the options that will give them the most pixels. Unbrella thinks we don't need any changes because FE is build to compete under the current rules. He knows that after TMO comes back it'll basically be FE and TMO rotating targets. I don't hold that against him: everyone looks out for themselves and I look out for me. My point is: I don't care if The A-Team loses a ton of races AS LONG AS THAT COMPETITION IS BASICALLY FUN. What does that mean?:

No tracking
No poopsocking / massive camping of alts
No FTE retardation with 200 people on the spawn

So how can we achieve this: simultaneous repops + reduced variance + people agreeing not to be retards about camping out characters.

/rant off.


I don't mind tracking. And have you ever gotten FTE amidst 100+ people? It feels like winning the freaking lottery. Fun IMO.

[kotton05]

But splorf, what I'm not gettin is how can that happen without a variance change?

[Frieza_Prexus]

I don't mind tracking. And have you ever gotten FTE amidst 100+ people? It feels like winning the freaking lottery. Fun IMO.

But you're in a guild that is built on tracking. That is simply not feasible for casuals, and that is why we are having this discussion. The goal here is to find a system that simultaneously satisfies raid guilds while allowing casuals a reasonable chance to experience raid content.

[Frieza_Prexus]

But splorf, what I'm not gettin is how can that be for without a variance change?

Variance need not necessarily be changed because everyone's ideas are starting to focus on a single concept: predictable simulated patches. With simulated patches, the variance can be left as is if casuals are also given a fair system that is 1) predictable and accessible to them and 2) kept from the hardcore who already have a system that caters to them (variance).

Restricting repops to lesser non-competitive guilds opens content to them without taking anything away from the competitive community.

[kotton05]

Cause if variance was removed or halved, we could like all camp out in Kerra isle and race there cuz that'd b fun

[kotton05]

Like bi weekly repops?

[Frieza_Prexus]

Like bi weekly repops?

Something like that, yes.

We've gone for 2+ years making the current variance system work for hardcores. For us, it's not that bad. For casuals, they haven't see a dragon. Like, ever.

Repopping the server every 2 weeks or so, and protecting that content from the hardcores, will allow casuals a fair chance to see some raid content during reasonable hours.

[Splorf22]

But splorf, what I'm not gettin is how can that happen without a variance change?

It would require changes from the devs; no question.

Look I have nothing against the two hour rule. It's a very reasonable compromise given the circumstances and a great step forward towards making the endgame more pleasant for everyone concerned. I'm just saying that, to me personally and I suppose a pretty large number of more casual players, raiding on this server will never be fun as long as it requires huge amounts of tracking and poopsocking. And the two hour rule does nothing for that.

[Elements]

But you're in a guild that is built on tracking. That is simply not feasible for casuals, and that is why we are having this discussion. The goal here is to find a system that simultaneously satisfies raid guilds while allowing casuals a reasonable chance to experience raid content.

That why I made my suggestion a couple posts back.

[kotton05]

And 2 weeks give folks time to call of work or clear their scheadule for an hour or two etc... But it's not often enough to really flood gear to all.

would this be something we could enact? With a bi weekly repop we wouldn't have to really agree much on terms of rotation cept for that day we'd have to not gobble them all up as usual and if anything just kinda sit back or merely focus on VP while others deal with the world spawns.

[Elements]

Suggesting the first spawn each month for certain targets be left to a FFA for guilds that do not compete for targets otherwise. This first spawn be left for 24 hours so more casual guilds have a chance to mobilize for them. After that mobs are contested for the rest of the month and people start respecting the FTE and no training rules. If guilds try to contest mobs for the remainder of the month then they are not eligible for the first spawns of the next month until it has been up for 24 hours.

If the casual guilds want to agree to rotate the first spawn of the month between them then so be it.

[Splorf22]

and protecting that content from the hardcores

Again, I don't even care so much about winning. I just don't want the form of competition to be tracking/poopsocking/camping out characters/otherwise spending huge amounts of time semi afk at the computer.

I think people just forget that the content itself is plenty challenging if you bring 20 people instead of 40.

[Yinikren]

I'm liking the point system idea the best. Otherwise we basically have to draw an arbitrary line between what guilds are "casual enough" to partake of these simulated repop days while the more hardcore guilds get to compete for normal variance (poopsock) based respawns.

If everything was assigned a point value, and a guild couldn't go over their value per week, then guilds would have to work together and with themselves to choose what mobs they are choosing to go after each week. It could even be broken down a bit further in the case of epic mobs if so desired, where Inny locks out CT from being attempted, or vice versa, so more people can start getting epics.

This should be on top of reducing, but not necessarily eliminating, variance. Guilds won't be poopsocking mobs if it doesn't fit their point critera for a week. Leaves CT open if BDA or Taken or FE would rather go for Inny or another epic mob, etc.

[Elements]

I'm liking the point system idea the best. Otherwise we basically have to draw an arbitrary line between what guilds are "casual enough" to partake of these simulated repop days while the more hardcore guilds get to compete for normal variance (poopsock) based respawns.

If everything was assigned a point value, and a guild couldn't go over their value per week, then guilds would have to work together and with themselves to choose what mobs they are choosing to go after each week. It could even be broken down a bit further in the case of epic mobs if so desired, where Inny locks out CT from being attempted, or vice versa, so more peole can start getting epics.

Not hard to assign. If you try at all for content beyond the first pop of the month for any given mob you are outta the casual pool.

[Yinikren]

Not hard to assign. If you try at all for content beyond the first pop of the month for any given mob you are outta the casual pool.

That right there implies that casuals only get to raid once a month on a certain day, though.

[Versus]

For a Classic server, all these ideas are quite anti-Classic :( Point values...WTF?!

[kotton05]

What would be best way to come up with a point system? Should we make a new thread and put all ideas on the best way to come up with that, I'd like to see it elaborated on more.

As it stands bi weekly repops , lower variance , or Sloan style are my favorites but I'm willing to look more into a pt system cause I dont fully understand it and how complex it could be.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Again, I don't even care so much about winning. I just don't want the form of competition to be tracking/poopsocking/camping out characters/otherwise spending huge amounts of time semi afk at the computer.

I think people just forget that the content itself is plenty challenging if you bring 20 people instead of 40.

I say "protecting" because we've seen FE and TMO clean sweep full repops with frightening efficiency. It's still not a situation that lends itself to sating those with RL time constraints in a reasonable way. The rule "protecting" the spawns can be just about anything. If your guild has killed X number of mobs in the last week, if your guild voluntarily gives up, if you guild is told by the GM's to stop, etc. etc.

The idea is that there needs to be more than just "REPOP GO!" Maybe not much more, but I think experience clearly shows that unfettered repops are torn through by the power guilds like a little kid through Christmas presents.

[Elements]

That right there implies that casuals only get to raid once a month on a certain day, though.

Variance prevents all mobs from spawning on the same day all the time. the first spawn for any give mob of the month could be day one to day 7 of the month.

[kotton05]

For a Classic server, all these ideas are quite anti-Classic :( Point values...WTF?!

We are so far from classic dude it's rediculous.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I think point-values have some merit, but I have a hang-up in how they will be determined, and whether or not they'll ever change.

For example, TMO loves Faydedar for the dragon shields, but we don't need it that much. Other guilds who have no druid epics might consider Faydedar to be a HUGE target. From which viewpoint shall the value be assigned? I'm not certain a consensus could be arrived at.

I think the best solutions are the ones that run themselves.

[Splorf22]

For a Classic server, all these ideas are quite anti-Classic :( Point values...WTF?!

No idea what you are smoking Phisting. Repops are classic; huge variance is not classic; player made agreements are classic.

[Yinikren]

As far as point values go, I don't think it would be hard to come together as a group between guilds and agree on a set-upon price per mob. Maybe we could even get a seperate raid forums section where there is a posting of each mob and everyone's reasons for a certain price now that we are working together for the betterment of the server?

[Elements]

No idea what you are smoking Phisting. Repops are classic; huge variance is not classic; player made agreements are classic.

GMs keep asking the players to sort it out on our own. I don't think we can realistically expect any server/code changes to happen.

[Autotune]

We are so far from classic dude it's rediculous.

idk man, I played classic and i can definitely say people were tracking for hundreds of hours per week to raid...

/sarcasm

Obviously Classic doesn't work here or the Staff would make it classic and obviously what we had before wasn't working or staff wouldn't say it needed to change.

So either look elsewhere or close your eyes, but either way people need to stop crying about change.

[kotton05]

No idea what you are smoking Phisting. Repops are classic; huge variance is not classic; player made agreements are classic.

When velious drops nerf donals bp or just wipe the server

[Yinikren]

Fay could always be a part of the epic mob group, Xasten, since he is a huge bottleneck. Dragon scales, I think we can agree, are a bit more ocmmon than pieces off CT, VS, Fay, Inny, etc. Those mobs could be on a lockout rotation where a guild forfeits any of the others by going for a certain one.

[Versus]

In this point system, what is PD worth? And what happens when 4 guilds all want to spend their points on PD?

[kotton05]

But that's all off topic. What it comes down to is a player agreement with simulated bi weekly repops, sounds most reasonable and will give guilds like a-team a chance to race etc..

[Frieza_Prexus]

In this point system, what is PD worth? And what happens when 4 guilds all want to spend their points on PD?

In the proposed system you spend points by killing the mob.

[Autotune]

In this point system, what is PD worth? And what happens when 4 guilds all want to spend their points on PD?

think of it like DKP and spending points happens when you kill the target.

4 guilds all want pd, 4 guilds compete, one wins and one loses the points for that week that are associated with PD. the other 3 guilds lose nothing but their time spent trying to kill PD.

[Versus]

Splorf, I meant more so the point system nonsense, not the repops or coordination obviously.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I don't think we can realistically expect any server/code changes to happen.

I disagree. We were already promised that the GM's were looking very hard at repops months ago. FTE shouts were finally implemented, and I think simulated repops would take like 5 minutes to implement.

If we, as the players, actually get together and act like rational and considerate individuals, I think GM Grinch's heart might grow 3 sizes that day.

[Splorf22]

If all of the leaders of the major guilds asked for repops and a reduction in variance and promised not to poopsock, I would hope that we would get it.

[Ravager]

For a Classic server, all these ideas are quite anti-Classic :( Point values...WTF?!

Hundreds of things about this server aren't classic. Classic rules can't fix non-classic problems.

[Yinikren]

Classic rules can't fix non-classic problems.

Best quote I have heard all day. Amen, brother.

[Elements]

I disagree. We were already promised that the GM's were looking very hard at repops months ago. FTE shouts were finally implemented, and I think simulated repops would take like 5 minutes to implement.

If we, as the players, actually get together and act like rational and considerate individuals, I think GM Grinch's heart might grow 3 sizes that day.

Yea man simulated repop days have been on the table for well over a year. Im not saying it wont happen, I'm just saying I don't think we can plan for it to.

[kotton05]

Frieza on an earlier topic I mentioned a sort of incentive bonus to getting like 4 traks in a row = free Druushk/xygoz/pd kill but must sit next trak out, as just an example where if you are doing really well its like a bonus ontop where you wouldn't need to spend points to get that kill but also free's up a spawn for another guild to get.

Its not a well thought out idea yet I keep bouncing these thoughts around. Could do it with like Taken getting inny really commiting their entire force there, if they do that after 3 or so kills they get a free shot at another same tier target or higher tier target, thus freeing up Inny in this case for another guild to possibly get it for one spawn. (still an idea im working on)

[Ravager]

I said what someone else said, so I don't need to say it.

[Autotune]

I said what someone else said, so I don't need to say it.

Should have left it anyhow.

[radditsu]

Do you think if you drew a treatise. Ratified by guild leaders with the requested changes ...they would not listen if it keeps GMS out of the loot business?

[Ele]

Hundreds of things about this server aren't classic. Classic rules can't fix non-classic problems.

Not even that. Nothing prevents people from working together either on live or now to achieve a voluntarily agreement for raiding.

[cyryllis]

I have the most unclassic approach to this problem, and although I'm sure it will be met with much hostility, it is something to consider:


Add an NPC in east commons that sells raid lottery tickets. 1000pp each or something. When a raid mob spawns, it will announce the winning number and whoever holds the ticket can raid the mob with their guild or players of their choice. If they do not engage within 1 hour, the next number is chosen.

Not only will it allow a much larger variety of people to engage raid targets, it will slowly remove platinum from the server- combating inflation and excess platinum from exploits.

Possibly have the tickets mob based, to make for easier coding. Also, you could make VP , CT, and other top targets more expensive per ticket. Maybe 10k per VP dragon ticket.

Crazy? Maybe. But just imagine how much platinum this could remove and how much less of a hassle everything would be for the GMs

[sanforce]

Frieza on an earlier topic I mentioned a sort of incentive bonus to getting like 4 traks in a row = free Druushk/xygoz/pd kill but must sit next trak out, as just an example where if you are doing really well its like a bonus ontop where you wouldn't need to spend points to get that kill but also free's up a spawn for another guild to get.

Its not a well thought out idea yet I keep bouncing these thoughts around. Could do it with like Taken getting inny really commiting their entire force there, if they do that after 3 or so kills they get a free shot at another same tier target or higher tier target, thus freeing up Inny in this case for another guild to possibly get it for one spawn. (still an idea im working on)

That's not going to work. Why would one of the harder/better mobs be given up for free, when that's precisely what people should be competing on. I'd like to see more simultaneous repops, no training, and maybe some sort of competition only mobs and competition/rotation every other spawn mobs.

[Vandy]

Give every guild a weekly allowance (certain amount) let's say 100.

Give every raid target a value based on demand, let's say PD is valued at 50.

Any guild that takes out PD is now left with only 50 raid allowance.

Then just go from there. CT/Inny/VS/ could all be set at 30. VP dragons (except PD) could be 10s along with Kunark world dragons. Draco could be a 15. Vox/Naggy/maestro 10s.

DKP yo!

IDK, something like that could easily be tracked and gives some weekly planning by each guild.


While I like the idea it is easily exploited. People could form secondary guilds with alts for a new 100 point cap to burn through

[Autotune]

While I like the idea it is easily exploited. People could form secondary guilds with alts for a new 100 point cap to burn through

Could easily do that with a rotation or any other system.

[Pheer]

Crazy? Maybe. But just imagine how much platinum this could remove and how much less of a hassle everything would be for the GMs

I always felt like the best plat sink for this server would be bringing in the casino from live with a modified prize list once velious has been out awhile. Imagine how much platinum people would dump on it even for a tiny chance at getting a guise.

Also could have more intermediate prizes like prismatic dyes and 10 charge port pots or something.

Could have shady in EC selling the tokens and put the casino npc(s) right next to him

[Yinikren]

I wouldn't be against an ingame casino to help fix the economy.

[Messianic]

I always felt like the best plat sink for this server would be bringing in the casino from live with a modified prize list once velious has been out awhile. Imagine how much platinum people would dump on it even for a tiny chance at getting a guise.

Also could have more intermediate prizes like prismatic dyes and 10 charge port pots or something.

Could have shady in EC selling the tokens and put the casino npc(s) right next to him

[Splorf22]

AWWWW YISSS

[talian21]

Yea man simulated repop days have been on the table for well over a year. Im not saying it wont happen, I'm just saying I don't think we can plan for it to.

and the first simulated repop happens the very day you post this, lol




-Silisk, ikky necro

[baramur]

VP= Rotation among guilds capable and keyed to kill in it. Same though if mob is up 4 hours you lose your chance to engage.

Trak= 2 out of 5 limit for initial engage. Free engage after mob is up 4 hours.

Vs= 2 out of 5 limit for initial engage. Free to engage after mob is up 4 hours.

Naggy/Vox Open raid style

Inny/CT first in zone with force. 2 out of 5 limit applies.

Draco/Maestro 3 our of 5 limit.

Dojo Rotation set, since set spawn time can plan it.

Server Repops: FFA, kills dont apply to limits.

Have All Raid leaders sit with all GM's and Draft a contract. Agree that if any guild breaks contract they will incur a 2 week raid suspension.

Will still be competition, but will still be a minimum of 3 guilds killing mobs.

Simple rule set that makes sense and makes sure not just the 2 top guilds ping the mobs back and forth.

[Handull]

2 hour rule helps the top two guilds to not fight as much, hence less training and less fte issues. the 50% rule doesn't add much to that, but it does mean guilds have to be a little selective. no poopsocking is great, but also hard to limit for certain mobs (take VS, obviously you have to allow people to be exping in the zone, but can an army of 40 afk on the steps outside VS room? what about at box room? at zone in? how many are allowed to face track vs at one time, etc). varience reduction will increase the bennefit to poopsocking, and increase the desire for other guilds to get involved in raiding, which will in turn increase the need to poopsock. some mobs you can avoid poopsocking by using rules, but even those rules can be lawyered ("we logged out our jugg raid of 15 people and 1 minute later a different 15 people logged in to raid juggs from our guild, clearly within the rules") and the easier poopsocking is, the more people will do it and the more of a problem this will be. The only reason poopsocking is dead is because a mob's true window is nearly a week long, so it just isn't worth it.

the real problem is its just too easy to cross the line from legit competition to being a dick. its also a hard line to define. being a dick to one person is fair competition to another, from there its just a matter of time before all the lines are blurred and everyone is a dick to each other.

that said, I think we have a really good thing going atm. guilds helping guilds, etc. keep it up everyone!

[Clark]

Sloan wins, most beef

[uygi]

How about, remove variance and replace it with spawns-per-month? Any mob has a random chance to pop at any time, with a mean spawn time equal to every 7 (or 3) days!? Then no windows, no variance, and no poopsock!

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

something that crept into this thread, is the "casual guild" needs to gain access to end game content.

What? Huh?

Casual guilds get obsolete content or barely contested content. Trying to eliminate that fact is one step away from instances.

I thought this thread and the issue was about refining how competitive guilds interact. By competitive, I mean guilds that can field a raid force at spawn, at least a few times a week.

Eww. Do not try to make sure anything with a pulse gets a shot at encounters. That is truly a bad idea.

Casuals play casual. Their choice. Want mobs? Get on the mutherfuckin batphone.

[gummab]

something that crept into this thread, is the "casual guild" needs to gain access to end game content.

What? Huh?

Casual guilds get obsolete content or barely contested content. Trying to eliminate that fact is one step away from instances.

I thought this thread and the issue was about refining how competitive guilds interact. By competitive, I mean guilds that can field a raid force at spawn, at least a few times a week.

Eww. Do not try to make sure anything with a pulse gets a shot at encounters. That is truly a bad idea.

Casuals play casual. Their choice. Want mobs? Get on the mutherfuckin batphone.

Ever thought these so *casual guilds* as you put it want to raid more content,but cannot because they have jobs,familes to take care of and have no chance of using a mutherfuckin batphone unless they want to lose there jobs?

My vote goes to no pooping and no variance.
All i want for christmas this year! is no douchebaggery & training.

[sanforce]

Ever thought these so *casual guilds* as you put it want to raid more content,but cannot because they have jobs,familes to take care of and have no chance of using a mutherfuckin batphone unless they want to lose there jobs?

My vote goes to no pooping and no variance.
All i want for christmas this year! is no douchebaggery & training.

Yes, I have thought of that, and don't care. Casual guilds get nothing, that's classic.

[pharmakos]

The difference between me and 95% of the rest of the people in this thread is that I am more concerned with making the raid scene fun than I am with dividing the pixels evenly.

/agree with you here, i've been saying this for awhile.

i can't imagine anyone enjoys 4AM batphones for 30 second encounters.

i'd love to see The A-Team get some raid target kills with a 6 man group.

[gummab]

Yes, I have thought of that, and don't care. Casual guilds get nothing, that's classic.


The speed of your post tell me that you do care.Merry Christmas to you

[sanforce]

The speed of your post tell me that you do care.Merry Christmas to you

Oh Europa? You guys will get stuff. Extremely casual guilds will probably not tho.

[pharmakos]

re: "casuals got nothing in classic"

the definition of "casual" was different back then. if you got your character to 55+ in kunark and then cut back to playing 5 to 10 hours a week.... you still got to kill some dragons once in awhile.

[aldred]

I have a proposal:


First week of each month -> casual raiding

During this week, only the casual guilds will raid and kill targets based on a rotation. Need to decide which guild are in the rotation, what are the allowed targets and how much time they have to kill their target (maybe 12h). This allow casual guilds to take their time to organize the raid, prepare themselves and make 2-3 attempts at these targets without stress. One week is what, 1-2 pop max. of each targets, far enough for casual guilds to have a few epics done and some interesting fights.
As casual guilds are not ready for VP, schedul open raid there during that casual week at a defined time, so keyed people that normally won't see it much can come and see its content. This will also give an opportunity to people that usually are in competition to meet and play together. (or VP stay out of this system)
Host some open raids for more common targets maybe? (Chardok royals, planes, etc.)


Last 3 weeks of the month -> hardcore raiding

I let you decide how you manage this, but the idea is to have fair competition during the rest of the month.



That would both give casual and hardcore what they want, the way they want.

I think something like that would encourage more people to play on Project 1999, and give a better "vibe" to the server and the community.

What do you think about it?

[sanforce]

I have a proposal:


First week of each month -> casual raiding

During this week, only the casual guilds will raid and kill targets based on a rotation. Need to decide which guild are in the rotation, what are the allowed targets and how much time they have to kill their target (maybe 12h). This allow casual guilds to take their time to organize the raid, prepare themselves and make 2-3 attempts at these targets without stress. One week is what, 1-2 pop max. of each targets, far enough for casual guilds to have a few epics done and some interesting fights.
As casual guilds are not ready for VP, schedul open raid there during that casual week at a defined time, so keyed people that normally won't see it much can come and see its content. This will also give an opportunity to people that usually are in competition to meet and play together. (or VP stay out of this system)
Host some open raids for more common targets maybe? (Chcarok royals, planes, etc.)


Last 3 weeks of the month -> hardcore raiding

I let you decide how you manage this, but the idea is to have fair competition during the rest of the month.



That would both give casual and hardcore what they want, the way they want.

I think something like that would encourage more people to play on Project 1999, and give a better "vibe" to the server and the community.

What do you think about it?

Overall, I like it. Simple plan that covers the basics of what the community is after.

I personally would like to exclude VP and and Trak from the rotational lists all together.

[falkun]

I voted for raid delays between consecutive spawns (sloan-style), repops and reduced variance. While I think poop-socking is bad for the server, I don't see a good way to enforce it, even if everyone agreed. At the same time, socking will be reduced because forces will have to move around due to the "sloan-style delays". The bag limit shouldn't matter as much come Velious, and as we saw at yesterday's respawn, there was a fairly even distribution of mobs even without the bag limit.

Overall, the passed two days have been great. But to give TMO credit (and a warning), we'll see how all this pans out over the course of the next two months.

[Splorf22]

re: "casuals got nothing in classic"

the definition of "casual" was different back then. if you got your character to 55+ in kunark and then cut back to playing 5 to 10 hours a week.... you still got to kill some dragons once in awhile.

We simply don't have any true casual guilds on this server, unless its Knights Who Say Ni. Sadre is just trolling (successfully it seems).

Also, as hard as it is to believe, I agree with Olidaen. I would rather have server enforced game mechanics than player agreements. I just don't think that those server mechanics should reward people for hours of watching the tracking box and gearing/leveling 4 alts so they can log one on at 4AM for 15 minutes to kill a dragon.

[Tasslehofp99]

Where's the 'no rules' rule?

rofl typical TMO

[webrunner5]

Overall, the passed two days have been great. But to give TMO credit (and a warning), we'll see how all this pans out over the course of the next two months.

You know and I know SOME Guild is going to step up and take TMO's place. There was ALWAYS some top guild on every server on live. The hard core players will be hard core.

Half of the old TMO guys will be called XYZ Guild and go for the throat again like a pitbull.

[Kelven]

sloan delays + reduce variance

[Cookiefist]

de·cen·cy
noun
1. behavior that conforms to accepted standards of morality or respectability.
"she had the decency to come and confess"

What is the behavior on this server that is the acceptable standard? Once we find out what that is then i reckon we shall have an answer whether or not we will have any possible enjoyable raid scene.

[Elmarnieh]

Server enforced sharing is nothing like live would hate it to the point of I would not play anymore. Besides no GM wants to be able to code something that everyone will think is fair.

[Daysprung]

Too much whining and crying, time for a server split. All you carebears can go into carebear-land and then you'll probably whine when you get out-carebear'd. You get out what you put in. Try harder or settle, its really your choice.

[webrunner5]

Too much whining and crying, time for a server split. All you carebears can go into carebear-land and then you'll probably whine when you get out-carebear'd. You get out what you put in. Try harder or settle, its really your choice.

Well spoken. But you have to admit TMO has had crap sewed up for a LONG time. Too long.

[August]

I didn't select 'no poopsocking' because I believe that you're addressing something that has a 'boundary' and you'd just be pushing the boundary back. If you can't log toons out at spawn point, then people will just log toons out at whatever boundary you propose.

This could be negative to casuals in the sense that now you've got people training (maybe not intentionally) to get to where you are. Also, where is that boundary going to be? How far do you extend a 'poopsock' radius? Am I safe @ Juggs for Trak? I'd hate to be killing juggs and teleported out because i'm 'too close'.

IMO the only way to prevent poopsocking is for everyone to have a chance at the mob. Simultaneous repops + time-delayed engagement rules would be great. However, I don't think that making it only for the next spawn would do anything than allow the major spawns to be toggled on and off by the top two guilds.

I'd propose a decay function of time-delay - simple really like 2/n - where n is the number of spawns since last taken down by your group. Hardcode the values so it's not too fine grained but:

So, you kill Trak.

Next spawn: wait 2 hours
Next spawn: wait 1 hour
Next spawn: wait 45 minutes
Next spawn: wait 30 minutes
Next spawn: wait 15 minutes
Next spawn: No restriction

With this methodology there would be 5 guilds 'in-line' for the kill. The time restrictions are such that it would be extremely feasible for guilds to 'lose out' their spot (competition, hooray) because they wiped, or they were slow to mobilize. However, they'd still sit at a low delay and the guild that mobilized more quickly would be bumped back to 2 hours.

This also virtually guarantees that no guild can lock down all the targets. If you're at 2 hours, even 1 hour, your chances of the other 3 waiting guilds (who have proven to be able to get the target previously) and the other un-restircted guilds not downing the mob are pretty slim.

This would still apply pressure to be able to mobilize quickly and down the target in a clean manner, and enforces a kind of 'turn-based' system.

I'd be happy to help implement it as well. I have played on this server for several years now with no real intent on raiding because of how FUBAR'ed it is. Let's hope something good can come of this.

[pharmakos]

Too much whining and crying, time for a server split. All you carebears can go into carebear-land and then you'll probably whine when you get out-carebear'd. You get out what you put in. Try harder or settle, its really your choice.

you mean people that enjoy tracksocking for 48+ hours so that they can get FTE on a 45 second fight can have their own server?

k.

[Daysprung]

Well spoken. But you have to admit TMO has had crap sewed up for a LONG time. Too long.

I don't blame TMO though, content has been stagnant for 3 years, what else is going to happen unless people just quit?

[Scoresby]

I don't blame TMO though, content has been stagnant for 3 years, what else is going to happen unless people just quit?

I hear what you're saying, but on live there was certainly a different take on hardcore raiding. Guilds at the top typically backed off lower tier raid targets and at least let the server have some scraps. It would be one thing if TMO was focused on VP (hell, even Trak to lock more people OUT of VP), but they have felt the need to monopolize most of the content all the way back to Nagafen and Vox with an alt army that just isn't a real option for most of the server. Then sell the spoils of this for insane amounts of cash to rub it in our faces.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out this is toxic.

I think the heart of the request from Rogean was for us to quit being dicks to one another across the board though. Empathy goes a long way. Feels good man.

[Aaron]

Too much whining and crying, time for a server split. All you carebears can go into carebear-land and then you'll probably whine when you get out-carebear'd. You get out what you put in. Try harder or settle, its really your choice.

It appears this entire discussion is over your head.

[Scoresby]

No. It has never been this way, sorry. Hardcore players were monopolizing the end stuff until the next expansion... but at the time, expansion were released every 6 months, that's the difference.

Stop inventing the past lol, Kunark is out. You can now camp Frenzy and Effreti. You wanna go to VP? Wait for Velious or grow some balls.

Actually, that wasn't the case. On Veeshan and (later Luclin) I never recall top tier guilds stepping back to camp such elite mobs as Dracoliche, Nagafen, and Vox in Kunark. And yes, I played since launch. In fact, it wasn't terribly uncommon to see dragons up for good chunks of time (hours even) while people assembled.

Pump yourself up if you want, but that WAS REALITY!

It has nothing to do with balls...merely time. Again, it's toxic behavior. There's a reason there was so much vitriol against TMO recently. I'm not saying it's right, just explaining where it comes from and hoping one day such egotism and chest thumping (as you apparently have) can be set aside.

I hardly play and don't expect a damn thing because of it. But for the sake of the server, it's worth stating that monopolization of content isn't healthy nor really that classic.

[TAllen82]

I wish people would just shut the hell up and realize there is no solution to this problem. There will always be someone stronger, bigger, faster, more organized than you. Always. TMO was it...may still be it...who knows. Im glad you guys reorganized...for the record. There are lots of very good TMO members, good people, who I have enjoyed knowing, I dont hate your guild. What you are asking though, in a very very generalized sense, is for our VOLUNTEER, guides, GMs, Devs.....the list goes on......to give up pretty much all of their real world lives, to police the state of our raid scene. Without such policing there will ALWAYS be a top dog, because that's the way things work. It's life, and life in pixel form is still life. Can't be fought, can't be worked around. I read all the posts (god there were so many) on the TMO exploit thread.....and all I could think was....WOW. How do you guys NOT believe this will always be an issue. Reduce variance....zerg guilds just camp harder. Increase Variance....zerg guilds just camp longer. Enforce a rotation? Zerg guilds spread their alts into other guilds, new names, same times, same strategy. There is no viable solution. The people who run this server (and I love you guys, you do a damn good job) are volunteers, they profit nothing from the time they put in. Let....Shit...Be. If you want a raid mob, tag along. If your guild wants to co-raid....ASK.
We are all grown people, I think...most of us. This is just a game, we all..or most of us...want to excel at the games we play, I'm sure. Mediocrity is noones benchmark. However, not all of us will be willing to put in the time and ridiculous effort required to hold that top slot. If you are a casual player, be casual...casually ask if you can raid with someone. If you are a hardcore poop in a sock take liquids intravenous player..more power to you, wish I could live your life. Why is this such a big issue. We SHOULD mostly be adults, with lives that matter, in the real world, with real sun and real shade and real fucking Tequila. Play the game, get as deep as you want. If you want to be as deep as TMO, BE TMO...you have that option. For the love of god though, quit crying, quit trying to "fix" it. It's not broken, it's just hard. Be harder, or don't be. That's just my two cents.

[TAllen82]

Also I'm drinking.....but all that is still valid!

[pharmakos]

If we do not see a significant improvement in the behavior of the raiding guilds and how they treat eachother, Velious will be released without raid content. To be clear, we want an enjoyable raid scene for everyone, not just one or two guilds. This means working together to figure out a compromise when racing for mobs, and working with smaller guilds to let them have a chance at mobs you don't absolutely need for gearing main characters.

[TAllen82]

Not classic bro, love the Goatmeister.......but not classic.

[pharmakos]

i know, i know

and of course, you know -- there's a kajillion other things on this server that aren't classic.

[TAllen82]

Indeed my friend (This is Fringyph, by the way) I know there are more than a few, but this one especially bothers me. It feels like a bunch of children crying because the upper classman is hogging tether ball....or something. Get better at fucking tether ball....know what I mean?

[pharmakos]

its not just about socialized pixels, though -- its about making the game fun.

[Aaron]

its not just about socialized pixels, though -- its about making the game fun.

Amen to this. Wish more people saw it this way.

[TAllen82]

That's a given...and if there really is an OP raid guild that REFUSES, to allow others to tag along, or lets them tag along and then screws them. It should be dealt with. However we have to remember who we are asking to deal with it. These guys aren't paid. They are doing it for love of the game. Asking for a total rescripting of raid scenarios is extreme. I think.

[Cecily]

Well none of these rules have to be official. There should be some agreement that all raiding guilds can agree to uphold though and self police.
For instance:

All the other guilds on the server can beg TMO forgiveness for their treasonous behavior recently and pledge fealty to Zeelot, the true and rightful king of the Server. Then you loyal subjects will be allowed to return to platinum mines.

[gwideon]

two things all the guilds should try to hammer out and agree to do,

Stop training
Respect FTE messages

Gnomish Greetings!

No doubt I have seen the abbreviation FTE defined before, but it is not in:
http://wiki.project1999.com/Abbreviations_Glossary

Could someone please remind me what this stands for again?

Thanks!

[pharmakos]

First To Encounter

[baalzy]

FTE is something new to this server but it means 'First to Engage' in this instance.

The raid mobs have been specially modified to send a zone-wide message with the name of the first person who agros them. This means that person 'engaged it' and his guild now has control of the encounter until they wipe and the mob looses all agro.

There are a few stipulations though, if the engaging guild doesn't attempt to fight the mob toe-to-toe within a reasonable timeframe (basically, running it straight to your raid force) then they're guilty of 'kiting' and something happens (i'm not really clear, since this stuff is usually sorted out after-the-fact).

Once the mobs hate list is completely clear (everyone who had agro is dead, feigned, or zoned) the mobs FTE resets and the next person to agro it now claims the mob.

FFXI did a similar thing except in that game when a mob was engaged it became locked and only people in the group/alliance could perform any actions against the mob unless they specifically called for help. EQ doesn't have that.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I have a proposal:


First week of each month -> casual raiding

During this week, only the casual guilds will raid and kill targets based on a rotation. Need to decide which guild are in the rotation, what are the allowed targets and how much time they have to kill their target (maybe 12h). This allow casual guilds to take their time to organize the raid, prepare themselves and make 2-3 attempts at these targets without stress. One week is what, 1-2 pop max. of each targets, far enough for casual guilds to have a few epics done and some interesting fights.
As casual guilds are not ready for VP, schedul open raid there during that casual week at a defined time, so keyed people that normally won't see it much can come and see its content. This will also give an opportunity to people that usually are in competition to meet and play together. (or VP stay out of this system)
Host some open raids for more common targets maybe? (Chardok royals, planes, etc.)


Last 3 weeks of the month -> hardcore raiding

I let you decide how you manage this, but the idea is to have fair competition during the rest of the month.



That would both give casual and hardcore what they want, the way they want.

I think something like that would encourage more people to play on Project 1999, and give a better "vibe" to the server and the community.

What do you think about it?

Maybe it's the nog, but this sounds like a sane compromise.

[Cecily]

I really really like that suggestion.

[Derubael]

I like sloan style 2 hr no engage on next TWO pops, instead of one.

This would ensure that tmo/fe aren't just trading mobs each week, makes things stay competitive, and gives everyone a shot.

So far that's the idea I like the most. But we're letting you guys work it out. We greatly encourage making the players figure out player stuff.

[cyryllis]

The holiday spirit leads me to believe that maybe the 3 week normal competition and leave 1 week a month for more casual folks is a good idea, well leave everything but vp...that should stay highly contested

[Tierael]

I like sloan style 2 hr no engage on next TWO pops, instead of one.

This would ensure that tmo/fe aren't just trading mobs each week, makes things stay competitive, and gives everyone a shot.

So far that's the idea I like the most. But we're letting you guys work it out. We greatly encourage making the players figure out player stuff.

Agreed, 100%. I think any rules made by the players and enforced by the players should be kept simple.

Rule: When a guild kills a target, they are forbidden to engage that target in the first 2 hours of spawning, for the next 2 spawns.

Less complicated, the better.

[Cecily]

I like the idea of open of VP raids on casual week. Probably the best way to get guilds to play nice with each other is to have them.. play with each other. Guilds are very much gated communities. There's practically no interaction needed to play like we have been. Would be cool to hang out with some old friends.

[Ravager]

I like the one week a month idea, but taking it further, I propose Casual Weekends. Any raid mob that spawns on the weekend is left up for casuals. Casuals probably don't want to raid or track during the week anyway. That comes to 8-10 days per month, so that's slightly more than the 1 week a month proposition. Could even make it just the first 3 weekends or just Casual Sundays (4-5 days a month) if hardcores don't want to make an 8-10 day concession.

Then it's just a matter of claiming what your guild is, if it's casual or if it's hardcore. Everyone who wants a rotation can do it on the weekends when they're more likely to play anyway. And the hardcores can still do their 4am Tuesday morning batphone races. We can make the rule if you kill a mob during the week, you're excluded from the weekend and vice-versa.

Could even switch the Sky Rotation around to accomodate this too, give the hard cores their choice of weekend slots, so that they're still raiding those days. Also, I'd leave VP out of the concessions.

[Fazlazen]

Agreed, 100%. I think any rules made by the players and enforced by the players should be kept simple.

Rule: When a guild kills a target, they are forbidden to engage that target in the first 2 hours of spawning, for the next 2 spawns.

Less complicated, the better.

Of course you like that, it means you (bda) would get one out of 3 targets, taking any need to race for mobs out of the equation. Not gonna happen.

Without GMs interfering in some way to change game mechanics, the top guilds need to agree to completely leave some mobs for others (nag vox tal sev gore 1/2 Fay 1/2 inny 1/4 trak 1/3 ct Draco etc for example) to raid, while keeping the race on other mobs.

[MaksimMazor]

Lol @ casual weekends and 1/3 every mob.

[Cecily]

I, for one, welcome our BDA overlords.

[Ravager]

Lol @ casual weekends and 1/3 every mob.

Or Sundays I said, which is either 2/7, or 1/7, 28% or 14% respectively. Or for just the first 3 weekends, which is 6 out of 28 days at the most 21% or 6 out of 31 at the least 19%. The 1 week a month is not far off from this with a total of 22% to 25% of mobs conceeded.

[MaksimMazor]

Lol @ 1/4 of all mobs

[Ravager]

Lol @ 1/4 of all mobs

1/4 of all mobs to be left up for 90% of the server is kind of laughable, but not in the way you think.

[MaksimMazor]

It's called trying to kill dragons. No one wants to try anymore

[Ravager]

It's called trying to kill dragons. No one wants to try anymore

Everyone wants to try, that's the problem we want to solve.

[pharmakos]

Lol @ casual weekends and 1/3 every mob.

are you saying that the idea of one guild only getting 1/3 of all raid mobs is a bad idea?

[MaksimMazor]

are you saying that the idea of one guild only getting 1/3 of all raid mobs is a bad idea?

Exactly

[Ravager]

To anyone in TMO, if you really wanted to compete and fight for your dragons, you're in the wrong guild.

[Cecily]

Registered Massage Therapists aren't recruiting though :(

[Fazlazen]

1/4 of all mobs to be left up for 90% of the server is kind of laughable, but not in the way you think.

the problem is we all know that if IB/FE and TMO decide to leave mobs up, BDA will get 90% of those mobs. Is that really giving back out to the casual players or is it only giving back to BDA?

I think we all agree we want the casual players to see some of the high end content, we just don't agree that all casuals = BDA.

[quido]

I want to leave mobs up for newer guilds, not for BDA and Taken.

[pharmakos]

i just can't imagine that its fun camping your main character at a spawn point for 4+ days at a time, just so you can get a 5AM batsignal to come to a 45 second long fight.

this isn't about socialized pixels, its about reintroducing fun and challenge into a server that's had kunark for way too long.

[Ravager]

the problem is we all know that if IB/FE and TMO decide to leave mobs up, BDA will get 90% of those mobs. Is that really giving back out to the casual players or is it only giving back to BDA?

I think we all agree we want the casual players to see some of the high end content, we just don't agree that all casuals = BDA.

That's why I proposed the mobs left up on the weekend be on rotation. Everybody gets what they want, hard cores can still race for mobs most of the week, casuals can take turns on encounters. It's a pretty fair compromise where the top raiding guilds are still getting 75% of the mobs.

If a guild wants in the rotation, they're not going to compete for the mobs during the week. If they compete for a mob during the week, they're out of the weekend rotation. Pretty simple.

[quido]

Considering guilds like BDA and Taken have gotten these mobs before, should you guys choose to do some rotation on what's left up, I think the smaller guilds should get twice as many spawns as these guilds that have killed this content before.

[Ravager]

Considering guilds like BDA and Taken have gotten these mobs before, should you guys choose to do some rotation on what's left up, I think the smaller guilds should get twice as many spawns as these guilds that have killed this content before.

I'd be on board with that, but in my opinion, the only people who should worry about the rotations are the ones in it. The bigger guilds in the rotation will naturally get more kills anyway, because smaller guilds are going to wipe more often. How many attempts a guild should be allowed on their turn and things of that nature can be hammered out with the leadership of the people who want rotations. Anyone who doesn't want to negotiate for the rotation spots can compete the other 5 days in the week.

[quido]

You're getting ahead of yourself.

[Ravager]

You're getting ahead of yourself.

No, I'm just throwing ideas into a conversation that is asking for ideas.

[radditsu]

i just can't imagine that its fun camping your main character at a spawn point for 4+ days at a time, just so you can get a 5AM batsignal to come to a 45 second long fight.

this isn't about socialized pixels, its about reintroducing fun and challenge into a server that's had kunark for way too long.

[Cecily]

It's not fun. I'm totally ok with playing more casually anyway. I sincerely wish you luck getting an agreement everyone can live with.

[Fuddwin]

It's not fun. I'm totally ok with playing more casually anyway. I sincerely wish you luck getting an agreement everyone can live with.

[Reguiy]

It's called trying to kill dragons. No one wants to try anymore


Exactly. No one wants to try and compete for dragons. It's not fun trying to compete with an army twice one's size. The solution to this dilemma is to join the guild with the most people and most alts. That guild right now is TMO. You can be as skilled and organized as you want, but unless if have a similarly large force, there is no real competing.

Everyone joins TMO because it's guaranteed loot. This is a problem which will keep perpetuating itself because it's 2013(almost 2014, not 1999.

[kotton05]

Don't have to join TMO you can do what Sloan did.

It's not that people don't want to try more or less, it's just not fun cause this emu server gives you unlimited accounts therefor I have a toon at every spawn including vp at the moment, while a fresh 60 tries to do what I do and quickly quits, therefor not classic, so this isn't a classic problem to all those people who cry it's classic...

It's time we figure a way "Sloan style" to at least give another smaller guild with a slower mobilization a chance every 2-3 weeks.

[Versus]

Exactly. No one wants to try and compete for dragons. It's not fun trying to compete with an army twice one's size. The solution to this dilemma is to join the guild with the most people and most alts. That guild right now is TMO. You can be as skilled and organized as you want, but unless if have a similarly large force, there is no real competing.

Everyone joins TMO because it's guaranteed loot. This is a problem which will keep perpetuating itself because it's 2013(almost 2014, not 1999.

I'd dare say that BDA and FE/IB have a similar amount of chars in guild. Didn't BDA field like 80 people for something the other week? At least a few weeks back, TMO was fielding low 20's for VP. Two years of Kunark = burn out.

[Tasslehofp99]

I'd dare say that BDA and FE/IB have a similar amount of chars in guild. Didn't BDA field like 80 people for something the other week? At least a few weeks back, TMO was fielding low 20's for VP. Two years of Kunark = burn out.

But why did your guild feel the need to completely lock out any other guild for two years? Server could have been a way better place during that time if you guys just took a step back and looked at what you were doing/listening to what almost everyone was saying.

You can't act like TMO's attitude towards the server didn't bring up all of the animosity towards your guild over the past years. TMO was approached by other guild's and players MANY times about the way they interacted with the rest of the server; it took a suspension of your guild/calling our by the owner of the server to bring about any type of acknowledgement from your guild. Even still, the attitude from many of your members is that nothing will change.

[kotton05]

I have faith in zag, the small time I knew him on a personal level he was by far one of the coolest/fair/most helpful folks. Much like Jeremy...in ways...

[Prismaticshop]

Exactly. No one wants to try and compete for dragons. It's not fun trying to compete with an army twice one's size. The solution to this dilemma is to join the guild with the most people and most alts. That guild right now is TMO. You can be as skilled and organized as you want, but unless if have a similarly large force, there is no real competing.

Everyone joins TMO because it's guaranteed loot. This is a problem which will keep perpetuating itself because it's 2013(almost 2014, not 1999.

that guild "was" TMO.

Not sure if anyone wants to be part of a guild whose leadership quit, who the staff threatened of disbanding and whom 86 accounts got banned for item duping...

Added to the fact that VP is now CSR, TMO has nothing else to offer that FE/IB doesnt, implying TMO goes ever back to raiding.

[Versus]

Woah bro (Tass), my comment was in no way related to your comment. Nor was it inflammatory in any way. Then again I shouldn't be surprised, you almost have an anyuerism every time TMO comes into the conversation.

I understand why people are upset. I get that you all want a shot at the raid mobs and TMO takes the large majority of them, which breeds jealousy and contempt. It's not like TMO was using hacks to slay these mobs or mobilize faster...they just wanted it more and put in more effort. It was the same thing on Povar. Triton /pwn'd the server and everyone else competed for the scraps. They put in the time, they reaped the rewards. The major issue here is the slow crawl of Kunark. People app TMO and therefore need gear. You can't name me ONE raid mob that doesn't drop an item that is in need.

And here comes the part where you ask, "but WHY can't you just be charitable?!" I, PERSONALLY, just think that's a silly notion. TMO exists primarily to kill raid mobs since you know, that's what is fun in EQ. So that's what TMO does. It doesn't exist to give mobs/items (read: fun) away.

I feel for ya, I see your point. I'm not being inflammatory. Just telling you my .02c. Also, TMO brass may feel differently. I am merely a piss ant.

[Daldaen]

Out of pure curiosity, how do tradeable items generally work for most guilds? I've never raided in an era where the bis items are tradeable. So stuff like VS Legs/Trak BPs. If there is a raid where a cleric one drops and you have a new cleric app like 1-2 weeks old that needs, do you actually give it to them? Or do you bank it for a few months before giving it to them?

This goes for all guilds on this server.

[Versus]

If no one on the raid needs, it goes to the guild bank (maintained on a spreadsheet) or a main's appropriate leveled Alt. The newer classes can ask for it as time goes on which is discussed among officers/loot council and then awarded at a later date.

[radditsu]

Woah bro (Tass), my comment was in no way related to your comment. Nor was it inflammatory in any way. Then again I shouldn't be surprised, you almost have an anyuerism every time TMO comes into the conversation.

I understand why people are upset. I get that you all want a shot at the raid mobs and TMO takes the large majority of them, which breeds jealousy and contempt. It's not like TMO was using hacks to slay these mobs or mobilize faster...they just wanted it more and put in more effort. It was the same thing on Povar. Triton /pwn'd the server and everyone else competed for the scraps. They put in the time, they reaped the rewards. The major issue here is the slow crawl of Kunark. People app TMO and therefore need gear. You can't name me ONE raid mob that doesn't drop an item that is in need.

And here comes the part where you ask, "but WHY can't you just be charitable?!" I, PERSONALLY, just think that's a silly notion. TMO exists primarily to kill raid mobs since you know, that's what is fun in EQ. So that's what TMO does. It doesn't exist to give mobs/items (read: fun) away.

I feel for ya, I see your point. I'm not being inflammatory. Just telling you my .02c. Also, TMO brass may feel differently. I am merely a piss ant.

You know nothing of povar. Or tritons relationship with that server. They were never overt assholes. They wanted to win content. After they beat the expansion they could give a shit. Triton was ten thousand times the guild TMO ever was. Triton and other guilds competed and were close in kills until late luclin/pop. Hell they worked together on some velious kills. Plus there was an honored rotation on the server.


Get my goddamns server name out your mouth.

[cyryllis]

its 350 dkp and 40 percent 30 and 60 day raid attendance to ask for high end loot out of bank..



Oh and you cant compare live raiding to here. Of course they beat expansions and moved on...there was a new expansion nearly twice a year. By the time you could beat vp velious was out and by the time st was farmed and aow was killes, luclin was out...then by the time you farmed vt keys and cleared vt a few times, pop was out...hit potime kill quarm a few times and then bam GoD was released. Fight through the unfinished buggy ass content of that expansion and move to the next. Plus we had the extra money grab expansions ykesha and ldon. We are stuck in kunark forever and people like to gear alts. Level 10s with vp loot are fun.

[Ravager]

Woah bro (Tass), my comment was in no way related to your comment. Nor was it inflammatory in any way. Then again I shouldn't be surprised, you almost have an anyuerism every time TMO comes into the conversation.

I understand why people are upset. I get that you all want a shot at the raid mobs and TMO takes the large majority of them, which breeds jealousy and contempt. It's not like TMO was using hacks to slay these mobs or mobilize faster...they just wanted it more and put in more effort. It was the same thing on Povar. Triton /pwn'd the server and everyone else competed for the scraps. They put in the time, they reaped the rewards. The major issue here is the slow crawl of Kunark. People app TMO and therefore need gear. You can't name me ONE raid mob that doesn't drop an item that is in need.

And here comes the part where you ask, "but WHY can't you just be charitable?!" I, PERSONALLY, just think that's a silly notion. TMO exists primarily to kill raid mobs since you know, that's what is fun in EQ. So that's what TMO does. It doesn't exist to give mobs/items (read: fun) away.

I feel for ya, I see your point. I'm not being inflammatory. Just telling you my .02c. Also, TMO brass may feel differently. I am merely a piss ant.

Jealousy, no. Contempt, maybe, but only because of attitudes like this. Whatever happens, unless things don't change, have fun raiding Kunark for another 3 years when there's no raid content in Velious.

[Cecily]

I'm ok with that honestly lol. Tradeskill hell and Stormfeather...

[radditsu]

I'm ok with that honestly lol. Tradeskill hell and Stormfeather...

The only mob I ever fd flopped on top of the spawn point and cranked up the volume on. Also an alarm set on spawn times.

[Autotune]

Would you guys stop crying and just figure out the order in which you want to rotate pixels? There hasn't been competition in ages and I don't want to deal with batphones and tracking anymore.

[radditsu]

Would you guys stop crying and just figure out the order in which you want to rotate pixels? There hasn't been competition in ages and I don't want to deal with batphones and tracking anymore.


How goes the levels?

[Autotune]

How goes the levels?

Haven't logged on, I might later or maybe tomorrow and start up again. Christmas has me so stuffed and lazy.

[radditsu]

Haven't logged on, I might later or maybe tomorrow and start up again. Christmas has me so stuffed and lazy.

I hope you get to 60 and then you get stealin back.

[Autotune]

I hope you get to 60 and then you get stealin back.

I would love a Christmas miracle, but seems those might not happen anymore :(

[radditsu]

I would love a Christmas miracle, but seems those might not happen anymore :(

I feel ya. I really do.

[Cecily]

Grinch stole Christmas, amirite?

[Autotune]

Grinch stole Christmas, amirite?

Eh, no christmas to steal lol.

[Yinikren]

A 2 hour, two week lockout on all raid mobs is a great idea, as Derubael suggested. I'd hate for TMO to come back and then IBFE and TMO just end up trading mobs.

The only issue I see is that there will be a three tier system going on, with TMO taking a week, IBFE taking a week, and everyone else gets stuck competing for the last slot, with multiple guilds taking shots. This still doesn't really solve the issue of letting people in smaller or family guilds get to attempt mobs. It just breaks up the monopolization into a three way competing figure.

This is the reason a point based basket limit, IMO, would be the best course of action, because we can adjust values for mobs now and then scale them when velious comes out. A basket limit would work perfect when we have ~58 raids mobs (Velious) as opposed to ~19 now. Velious easily contains enough mobs that guilds will have to focus targets they need at the expense of something else.

For instance, lets say each guild gets 100 points a week, as was pointed out elsewhere on the thread. Velious is out, and they want to plan out mobs to kill and compete with.

Point values for each mob can be adjusted based on guild wants/needs or to prevent a monopoly. For instance, ST key mobs could be priced at 35-40 points each, a limit that would automatically guarantee more than one guild keying up for ST at a time. It also means a less cluttered ToV or Kael, because if a guild wants to work on ST keys, or farm loot off the best (and most expensive) mobs, they are doing it at the exclusion of other mobs. If two guilds want Sontalak, then there's still competition for resources, so no one can bitch that there isn't competition. This simply prevents guilds from taking too much of the raid mob pie.

[Reguiy]

I understand why people are upset. I get that you all want a shot at the raid mobs and TMO takes the large majority of them, which breeds jealousy and contempt. It's not like TMO was using hacks to slay these mobs or mobilize faster...they just wanted it more and put in more effort. It was the same thing on Povar. Triton /pwn'd the server and everyone else competed for the scraps. They put in the time, they reaped the rewards. The major issue here is the slow crawl of Kunark. People app TMO and therefore need gear. You can't name me ONE raid mob that doesn't drop an item that is in need.


One of the points I'm trying to make, is that TMO probably doesn't even need to accept applicants at this point. With the amount of toons/alts they field, they could probably compete in the raid scene and take 75% of the mobs with ease. But they would rather keep actively recruiting a large amount of players to maintain their firm grip, instead of using what they have to gear who they have.

If they didn't recruit apps their number of toons/alts wouldn't be as high, but they also wouldn't have as many people to gear. At this point they're basically recruiting so they could have a massive force in velious. No veteran in the guild needs gear for their main at this point, and gearing up 3rd alts is not classic.

[radditsu]

One of the points I'm trying to make, is that TMO probably doesn't even need to accept applicants at this point. With the amount of toons/alts they field, they could probably compete in the raid scene and take 75% of the mobs with ease. But they would rather keep actively recruiting a large amount of players to maintain their firm grip, instead of using what they have to gear who they have.

If they didn't recruit apps their number of toons/alts wouldn't be as high, but they also wouldn't have as many people to gear. At this point they're basically recruiting so they could have a massive force in velious. No veteran in the guild needs gear for their main at this point, and gearing up 3rd alts is not classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLR_TDO0FTg

[Alarti0001]

One of the points I'm trying to make, is that TMO probably doesn't even need to accept applicants at this point. With the amount of toons/alts they field, they could probably compete in the raid scene and take 75% of the mobs with ease. But they would rather keep actively recruiting a large amount of players to maintain their firm grip, instead of using what they have to gear who they have.

If they didn't recruit apps their number of toons/alts wouldn't be as high, but they also wouldn't have as many people to gear. At this point they're basically recruiting so they could have a massive force in velious. No veteran in the guild needs gear for their main at this point, and gearing up 3rd alts is not classic.

You're wrong... on all counts.

[Versus]

Two years of Kunark = Burn out of members = Need new members = Recruitment.

[Lazie]

Two years of Kunark = Burn out of members = Need new members = Recruitment.

Where normal people would say...

2 years of Kunark = Take a break.

[cyryllis]

If we took a break, then when velious hits we wouldnt be on our A game and couldnt be guaranteed to have a ready and capable force day 1.

With that being said, we are all still curious to see how many old members also return for that day. Many have quit until velious or so they said. Will be fun to see 2000 population or something close between all of the other people who have stopped over the years

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Where normal people would say...

2 years of Kunark = Take a break.

We have taken breaks. And came back. And took breaks. And came back. Been here for over 4 years mang, it takes its toll :3

[Autotune]

Where normal people would say...

2 years of Kunark = Take a break.

yeah, really common for an entire guild to take a break all at once as opposed to people taking breaks when it's most convenient to them and the guild as a whole still operating and functioning as normal.

[Lazie]

Listen most of you are decent people but when you spend 2 years locking down everything and refusing to work with people and instead point at the price you are selling epic pieces etc... You aren't really gearing out a guild. You are gearing out people who farm plat. So the excuse that you are gearing out new players doesn't make sense when you are selling a large portion of the drops.

[Autotune]

Listen most of you are decent people but when you spend 2 years locking down everything and refusing to work with people and instead point at the price you are selling epic pieces etc... You aren't really gearing out a guild. You are gearing out people who farm plat. So the excuse that you are gearing out new players doesn't make sense when you are selling a large portion of the drops.

Gear is only one part of the game and it's a small part.

Just because the gain is small doesn't mean it's nonexistent. TMO continued to do what they were doing so they wouldn't have to worry much (any) about competition in Velious.

The more well off the members are in gear, plat, status, characters, etc the better the guild is and the happier everyone wearing at TMO tag is.

You keep whining about how things are because you're unhappy with your guild and TMO keeps whining about how you guys are because they are happy with their guild.

[Ravager]

TMO continued to do what they were doing so they wouldn't have to worry much (any) about competition in Velious.

TMO forum trolls won't admit this. They all claim they want competition.

[Jesseca]

Stop training
Respect FTE messages

I think the key word here is Respect. Not enough of that going around these days. If everyone would Respect a guilds claim to a mob as most do with the exp camps then Norath would be a much more fun place to spend our free time.

[Lazie]

Gear is only one part of the game and it's a small part.

Just because the gain is small doesn't mean it's nonexistent. TMO continued to do what they were doing so they wouldn't have to worry much (any) about competition in Velious.

The more well off the members are in gear, plat, status, characters, etc the better the guild is and the happier everyone wearing at TMO tag is.

You keep whining about how things are because you're unhappy with your guild and TMO keeps whining about how you guys are because they are happy with their guild.


That is a minimalist view of it.

Also TMO is was past the point where they needed to worry about guild matching them in gear before Velious drops almost a year ago. They have been set for awhile especially if their dormant players do return for Velious. Again they played under the rules and there was nothing wrong with that. The stance they took however alienated a lot of people from feeling any remorse when they did get nuked.

No one is whining for pointing out the facts of the situation FYI.

[Autotune]

That is a minimalist view of it.

Also TMO is was past the point where they needed to worry about guild matching them in gear before Velious drops almost a year ago. They have been set for awhile especially if their dormant players do return for Velious. Again they played under the rules and there was nothing wrong with that. The stance they took however alienated a lot of people from feeling any remorse when they did get nuked.

No one is whining for pointing out the facts of the situation FYI.

You keep talking about gear as if it matters and understood nothing.

[Lazie]

You keep talking about gear as if it matters and understood nothing.

I mention gear because it is the excuse many still in TMO use. They say they were after gear for newer members. It is about gearing or stopping another guild from getting geared however. Choose which excuse is convenient for you that is what has been stated by members. There is no prestige left (For TMO) to still be killing Trak and VP. They proved they could do it. At this point it is about stifling growth of other guilds for competition. Which in turn hurts the whole server.

[MaksimMazor]

My level 8 cleric needs Donal's BP

[Autotune]

I mention gear because it is the excuse many still in TMO use. They say they were after gear for newer members. It is about gearing or stopping another guild from getting geared however. Choose which excuse is convenient for you that is what has been stated by members. There is no prestige left (For TMO) to still be killing Trak and VP. They proved they could do it. At this point it is about stifling growth of other guilds for competition. Which in turn hurts the whole server.

You talk about things that don't matter because others are doing it... gotcha.

Look, it's about keeping your guild happy. TMO has to gear new recruits to keep raiding to keep the members that want to keep raiding happy. The reasons behind every small aspect doesn't matter, the goal is to keep the people with the same tag as you satisfied while everyone is stuck in the kunark groundhog day that is p99.

Keeping a machine like TMO happy requires things not seen before on any live server, because no live server was stuck with so few raid mobs for so long with no end in sight. Releasing Velious without raid content would do more harm than good, but staff have been wrong with many of their calls (lol Variance helps casuals!), so it doesn't surprise me that they'd go with something like that. TMO would just farm the hell out of every worthwhile nonraid target/quest/camp/ground spawn/etc and kill classic/kunark raid content (which is what every single other guild would want to do do, but couldn't because they don't have the right members [they all joined TMO])

[Lazie]

You talk about things that don't matter because others are doing it... gotcha.

Look, it's about keeping your guild happy. TMO has to gear new recruits to keep raiding to keep the members that want to keep raiding happy. The reasons behind every small aspect doesn't matter, the goal is to keep the people with the same tag as you satisfied while everyone is stuck in the kunark groundhog day that is p99.

Keeping a machine like TMO happy requires things not seen before on any live server, because no live server was stuck with so few raid mobs for so long with no end in sight. Releasing Velious without raid content would do more harm than good, but staff have been wrong with many of their calls (lol Variance helps casuals!), so it doesn't surprise me that they'd go with something like that. TMO would just farm the hell out of every worthwhile nonraid target/quest/camp/ground spawn/etc and kill classic/kunark raid content (which is what every single other guild would want to do do, but couldn't because they don't have the right members [they all joined TMO])

That is exactly the BS view (bolded part to keep you on track) many get alienated by. The rest is hyperbole from you past that to create a false strong impression to excuse actions. I honestly don't blame TMO or it's members for doing what they did under the former rules. It was simply the way they chose to play the game. It just (As I pointed out) alienated them from most of the server largely because of the troll's in the guild responses to people who attempted to compete with them. I simply in the thread stated let's not pretend it was solely to gear up new members.

[Ravager]

You talk about things that don't matter because others are doing it... gotcha.

Look, it's about keeping your guild happy. TMO has to gear new recruits to keep raiding to keep the members that want to keep raiding happy. The reasons behind every small aspect doesn't matter, the goal is to keep the people with the same tag as you satisfied while everyone is stuck in the kunark groundhog day that is p99.

Keeping a machine like TMO happy requires things not seen before on any live server, because no live server was stuck with so few raid mobs for so long with no end in sight. Releasing Velious without raid content would do more harm than good, but staff have been wrong with many of their calls (lol Variance helps casuals!), so it doesn't surprise me that they'd go with something like that. TMO would just farm the hell out of every worthwhile nonraid target/quest/camp/ground spawn/etc and kill classic/kunark raid content (which is what every single other guild would want to do do, but couldn't because they don't have the right members [they all joined TMO])

So if TMO stopped raiding right now, with their mains and alts in BiS gear, they wouldn't be happy?

[Autotune]

So if TMO stopped raiding right now, with their mains and alts in BiS gear, they wouldn't be happy?

Some maybe, some wouldn't. The gear isn't a big deal to the ones who like to raid and experience the camaraderie that goes along with it. There is a difference between raiding for loot and raiding for the fun of it and I can tell you no one in TMO that's been there holding it down since the start cares what the rest of the server gets or doesn't get. There are very few, but even those, raid because they enjoy the competition.

[Autotune]

That is exactly the BS view (bolded part to keep you on track) many get alienated by. The rest is hyperbole from you past that to create a false strong impression to excuse actions. I honestly don't blame TMO or it's members for doing what they did under the former rules. It was simply the way they chose to play the game. It just (As I pointed out) alienated them from most of the server largely because of the troll's in the guild responses to people who attempted to compete with them. I simply in the thread stated let's not pretend it was solely to gear up new members.

Look, you understand nothing about what TMO went through to get to where they are, you don't understand why they even continue to raid and you don't know why they act the way they do toward the rest of the server. Literally a waste of my time trying to inform you.

[radditsu]

Look, you understand nothing about what TMO went through to get to where they are, you don't understand why they even continue to raid and you don't know why they act the way they do toward the rest of the server. Literally a waste of my time trying to inform you.

I do. I know. I understand. Fuck your troubles.




I am happy about the vp change tho. It should be less of a shitshow and people can get some sleep

[Versus]

Just type /cry, it will make you feel better.

[Autotune]

I do. I know. I understand. Fuck your troubles.




I am happy about the vp change tho. It should be less of a shitshow and people can get some sleep

Yeah some people know and they have legitimate responses which cause TMO to just turn on the troll, but some of these guys seem like they just go around pulling shit off these forums and regurgitate it with out knowing a damn thing.

I'm not defending TMO and I'm not advocating for these other guys wanting to raid. However, if people knew each side they could actually put a food forward in solving the problems both sides create and maybe come to some sort of agreement.

Yes, the VP change is long overdue, just like Velious.

[Ravager]

Some maybe, some wouldn't. The gear isn't a big deal to the ones who like to raid and experience the camaraderie that goes along with it. There is a difference between raiding for loot and raiding for the fun of it and I can tell you no one in TMO that's been there holding it down since the start cares what the rest of the server gets or doesn't get. There are very few, but even those, raid because they enjoy the competition.

Seems to me there's two kinds of people in TMO: those who like to play with a stacked deck and those who don't like to play against a stacked deck.

If it isn't about loot for them, I just don't see what's so fun about the way they play the game. Is parking out at Trak 2-3 days a week and killing it in 30 seconds 200 times really so fun? And if TMO doesn't like to play the game this way (I've seen numerous posts in the past where they say they only do that because IB/FE/BDA/VD etc are doing it), then have they ever approached other guilds to negotiate these things?

[cyryllis]

Remove variances and make instanced zones for casual guilds who can have lockout timers and rotations. Problem solved.

[Elderan]

Remove variances and make instanced zones for casual guilds who can have lockout timers and rotations. Problem solved.

Honestly might as well.

Just give guilds the ability to spawn instances once a week for 500k plat or something.

[Autotune]

Seems to me there's two kinds of people in TMO: those who like to play with a stacked deck and those who don't like to play against a stacked deck.

If it isn't about loot for them, I just don't see what's so fun about the way they play the game. Is parking out at Trak 2-3 days a week and killing it in 30 seconds 200 times really so fun? And if TMO doesn't like to play the game this way (I've seen numerous posts in the past where they say they only do that because IB/FE/BDA/VD etc are doing it), then have they ever approached other guilds to negotiate these things?

TMO was more talkative to guilds in the past and even tried as a guild to reach out slowly by not going after a certain raid target each week. That was met with people claiming it wasn't good enough, that it was some kind of PR trick, and it ultimately just pissed everyone in TMO off because it just ended up being a giant headache. Why give up a raid target just to have people bitch at you for doing it when you can kill it and have them bitch at you?

There are grudges held by TMO towards other guilds from years ago and those same guilds hold grudges against them. TMO didn't decide to just start treating these people like shit, they earned it and when those people spread to all the different guilds so did the grudges, to the point it became a Server VS TMO thing.

[Ravager]

TMO was more talkative to guilds in the past and even tried as a guild to reach out slowly by not going after a certain raid target each week. That was met with people claiming it wasn't good enough, that it was some kind of PR trick, and it ultimately just pissed everyone in TMO off because it just ended up being a giant headache. Why give up a raid target just to have people bitch at you for doing it when you can kill it and have them bitch at you?

There are grudges held by TMO towards other guilds from years ago and those same guilds hold grudges against them. TMO didn't decide to just start treating these people like shit, they earned it and when those people spread to all the different guilds so did the grudges, to the point it became a Server VS TMO thing.

I didn't mean about offering 'hand outs' or even to discuss rotations. I meant just trying to negotiate rules of engagement, like having guilds promise not to park toons, or DA stall tank etc. I know there's trust issues going both ways, which makes it difficult, but it's gotta start somehow and somewhere.

[Autotune]

I didn't mean about offering 'hand outs' or even to discuss rotations. I meant just trying to negotiate rules of engagement, like having guilds promise not to park toons, or DA stall tank etc. I know there's trust issues going both ways, which makes it difficult, but it's gotta start somehow and somewhere.

TMO and IB often made and held to agreements (even rotations). As far as reaching out to the other guilds, well the grudges kept that from happening after TMO had no equal.

[fastboy21]

TMO should just deguild...at this point, the name is been so dragged through the mud that no amount of good behavior is going to undo the years of problems (real or perceived) that most of the server credits to them.

[Tyym]

OMFG, reading all this makes me reflect back to my son's little league end of season where they passed out trophies to every team. WTF is a participation trophy anyway.

You know what, I am all for the spirit of cooperation but if you think everyone should have an equal chance at getting raid loot no matter what skill level or effort that is put in the game, then go play fucking WoW. Guilds are either raid guilds or they are family guilds. There is no in between. Guilds and their members put effort in to becoming what they are. As a guild, TMO may have been considered the douchebags of the server but they were well geared douche bags. You know why; they worked for it. Same with FE, IB and all guilds before whose collective efforts made the difference between winning your gear or buying it in the EC Tunnel.

As I said, I am all for implementing the Sloan style delay. It gives some guilds who normally wouldn't get an opportunity to kill a raid target once per week. As for rotations, hand holding and caps on how many mobs we can kill during a week; that is the stupidest shit I ever heard. But that's the state of mind in this day and age. No longer should people feel compelled to work for the shit they get. Everyone is entitled, everyone makes the team and everyone gets a participation trophy.


Morphius
60 Enchanter
Forceful Entry

[Versus]

OMFG, reading all this makes me reflect back to my son's little league end of season where they passed out trophies to every team. WTF is a participation trophy anyway.

You know what, I am all for the spirit of cooperation but if you think everyone should have an equal chance at getting raid loot no matter what skill level or effort that is put in the game, then go play fucking WoW. Guilds are either raid guilds or they are family guilds. There is no in between. Guilds and their members put effort in to becoming what they are. As a guild, TMO may have been considered the douchebags of the server but they were well geared douche bags. You know why; they worked for it. Same with FE, IB and all guilds before whose collective efforts made the difference between winning your gear or buying it in the EC Tunnel.

As I said, I am all for implementing the Sloan style delay. It gives some guilds who normally wouldn't get an opportunity to kill a raid target once per week. As for rotations, hand holding and caps on how many mobs we can kill during a week; that is the stupidest shit I ever heard. But that's the state of mind in this day and age. No longer should people feel compelled to work for the shit they get. Everyone is entitled, everyone makes the team and everyone gets a participation trophy.


Morphius
60 Enchanter
Forceful Entry

A-Fucking-Men.

[Ravager]

OMFG, reading all this makes me reflect back to my son's little league end of season where they passed out trophies to every team. WTF is a participation trophy anyway.

You know what, I am all for the spirit of cooperation but if you think everyone should have an equal chance at getting raid loot no matter what skill level or effort that is put in the game, then go play fucking WoW. Guilds are either raid guilds or they are family guilds. There is no in between. Guilds and their members put effort in to becoming what they are. As a guild, TMO may have been considered the douchebags of the server but they were well geared douche bags. You know why; they worked for it. Same with FE, IB and all guilds before whose collective efforts made the difference between winning your gear or buying it in the EC Tunnel.

As I said, I am all for implementing the Sloan style delay. It gives some guilds who normally wouldn't get an opportunity to kill a raid target once per week. As for rotations, hand holding and caps on how many mobs we can kill during a week; that is the stupidest shit I ever heard. But that's the state of mind in this day and age. No longer should people feel compelled to work for the shit they get. Everyone is entitled, everyone makes the team and everyone gets a participation trophy.


Morphius
60 Enchanter
Forceful Entry

The way the game is right now, anyone who joins TMO is essentially getting their participation trophies. Rotations are happening right now, except they're called DKP and exclusive to 1 tag.

Also, the idea that there has to be competition in a Player vs. Environment game is pretty silly to me.

[Versus]

P1999 Welfare

[Ravager]

P1999 Welfare

Only for the apps of TMO, everyone else is earning their loot the hard way.

[MaksimMazor]

The hard way: crying to GMs and allocating free raid mobs to yourselves

[Splorf22]

OMFG, I don't think anyone should be able to succeed at classic everquest without spending huge amounts of time dealing with unclassic variance

Makes what you wrote sound a little sillier, doesn't it?

[Ravager]

The hard way: crying to GMs and allocating free raid mobs to yourselves

I'd tell you to see for yourself and try raiding against TMO sometime, but that means you'd actually have to compete for something.

[Alarti0001]

A-Fucking-Men.

No "GUILD" left behind act. P99 celebrating meritocracy!

[Ravager]

No "GUILD" left behind act. P99 celebrating meritocracy!

If you don't like what's being discussed here, it is an open discussion. Feel free to offer up ideas to improve the raid scene instead of trolling everyone else who actually contribute ideas.

[Alarti0001]

If you don't like what's being discussed here, it is an open discussion. Feel free to offer up ideas to improve the raid scene instead of trolling everyone else who actually contribute ideas.

Already have :)

[Versus]

I've engaged in full on troll mode now, sorry. No more realistic input from me.

But seriously though... If I can't log in after work at 5:30pm and get handed my free Trakanon mob via "P99 Hug Club" rotation I'm going to get all my casual buddies to cry with me until the noise is deafening.

[Tyym]

To Splorf22;
That 2nd sentence you have me quoted as saying never came from my keyboard sir. Check your sources. I don't even know how to spell variance.

Morphius

[Ravager]

I've engaged in full on troll mode now, sorry. No more realistic input from me.

But seriously though... If I can't log in after work at 5:30pm and get handed my free Trakanon mob via "P99 Hug Club" rotation I'm going to get all my casual buddies to cry with me until the noise is deafening.

You made this point. Everyone already knows what you think. Everyone knows what you'll have to say in the future too, without the bother of asking you, because it's always the same. You never have to make another post again.

[pharmakos]

i would just like everyone to re-read the quote in my signature