Raid mob rotation idea, and Teirs

[Kelven]

There's just too much bickering on these forums, and no ideas/solutions. I quickly wrote this one up in notepad.

Kelven's Non-poopsocking rotation suggestion.

Certain guilds wanted to get away from the carebear rotation because they felt they were more "hardcore" and deserved loot more then casual players who are
unable to play as much as them. While this holds some merit, it has driven the raiding scene into one big boring campfest lasting on average 3-4 days
straight.

I am under the impression that 95% of the server, or more, does not actually like to poopsock-camp mobs all week, and would like the chance to do other
activities, whether that be on or offline.

Yes this is just like the old server boss rotation we had in place when guilds first started raiding, with some minor tweaks.

Rotation:
The first issue is how will everyone determine WHO is allowed into the guild raiding rotation.

Right now the "raiding" guilds that I know of are as follows:

Dark Ascension
Inglorious Basterds
Divinity
Wrathful Inquisition
Transcendence
Remedy/Europa

Alliances will always be counted as 1, regardless of numbers.

Now lets break the boss targets down by how hard they are.
My reasoning behind this is also to allow the more "hardcore" and larger guilds a smaller list on the most sought after raid bosses.

Teir1: Draco, Maestro
Teir2: Vox, Nagafen, Innorruk, Cazic Thule.
We could possibly even break Vox/Nag into a Teir 3 and increase the *player-online requirement*

About how many people should be required to kill each boss. I know you can probably do CT/Inny with 12-15 people depending what classes you have, but lets
keep these numbers realistic - and let them reflect the size of the guild that should be allowed to tackle a certain raid mob.

Required raid force ( Tagged ) for Teir1 bosses: 15
Required raid force ( Tagged ) for Teir2 bosses: 20
Required raid force ( Tagged ) for Teir3 ? bosses: 25 ?

If a guild cannot produce such a raid force, they will be unable to compete for certain Teir bosses. These are just guestimated numbers, but I feel they are pretty accurate on what type of raid force the larger raiding guilds would have.

Suggested spawn timers.
Teir 1, 3 days - that's about what they are already?
Teir 2, 5-6 days - that's about what they are already?

Remove the +/- 48 hours so that guilds can plan to have people online for their kills.

How the rotation works: *Example*, this does not account for every possible occurrence.

week 1

Guild-A : Vox - Maestro
Guild-B : Nagafen - Draco
Guild-C : CT
Guild-D : Inny

Guild-E : Sits out

week 2

Guild-E : Vox
Guild-A : Nagafen
Guild-B : CT - Maestro
Guild-C : Inny - Draco

Guild-D : Sits out

week 3

Guild-D : Vox - Draco
Guild-E : Nagafen
Guild-A : CT
Guild-B : Inny

Guild-C : Maestro

I would like to note that Draco/Maestro will be passed through the list much faster, leading to some guilds having two targets per week, or none.
The amount of guilds allowed to try the Teir1 targets will also be on a larger list.

How long do you have?

Guild-x is allowed 24 hours to kill said mob. This allows people who aren't online 24/7 to get a shot, and not attach socks to their asses.

IF a guild cannot kill the boss target within the 24 hours allotted, they will forfeit their spot, and said boss will transfer to the next guild on
rotation. The failing guild will also forfeit there rotation for THAT SPECIFIC BOSS, on their immediate following rotation, but be allowed to attempt
again after 1 full rotation.

IF this guild cannot defeat the boss on their 2nd attempt/rotation they will forfeit there spot on that boss for the remainder of the month or X amount of rotations. This will be an attempt to keep the list small, so we don't have new guilds popping up like weeds trying to claim bosses.

Determining who gets to be on the list will take some sitting down between guild leaders. Smaller and newly formed guilds will, and should be skipped from the list until they can prove they can handle the targets - although the rules to determine this are a bit vague in my head at the moment.

I'm sure there will be people who trash this idea, because they can be online all day / everyday camping bosses - but that's just not what I envisioned this server would become.

This is my original draft, but if we were going to adopt a raid rotation again between guilds - I think this is a good start.

[Coalrymer]

Not to poopoo on what you put here but, uhh. It won’t work. That would only allow the certain number of guilds in there to raid. Without them getting too feisty. New guilds are popping up all the time.

Good post though

[nicemace]

im all for rotation, but change the 24 hour window to kill to 1.5 hours, maybe 3 at the max, but keep it short. especially if you remove variance since guilds should be able to plan for the pop of a mob.

no wipes, you wipe you lose your spot.

both of the above result in FFA. mob, dosent pass off to next guild.

aside from that i'd be happy.

[Toony]

im all for rotation, but change the 24 hour window to kill to 1.5 hours, maybe 3 at the max, but keep it short.

I agree on a smaller window, 8-12 hours max, if you can't field a raid force by then you just aren't in the mix imo.

p.s. my reasoning on 8-12 hours is, if you're already agreeing to a rotation, you need to factor in server outages, restarts and time zones.

And yes, absolutely, new guilds have to be considered.

[Humerox]

Same problem we had in the beginning. No allowance for new guilds.

The server has been through this entire process before. We're repeating history here. We went from rotation to spawn-variance and new server rules, to player-made rules, and now we're talking rotation again.

If rotation is a solution, it must be dynamic. It must allow for new guilds that come up. It must allow for the future, so all guilds that are capable can enjoy content.

Even as Sky, Kunark and Velious come up...I think server population will always be growing. It wasn't so long ago we were peaking 200. No it's almost 900...and when Kunark opens, the floodgates will open, I can promise you that. So we'd need to deal with rotations through real tiers.

I still want to see what Nilbog and Aeolwind have come up with.

Up and comers?

Eminence
Vesica Dei
Sapientia

Forgive me if I forgot any, but the list keeps growing. They may not all be raid-capable yet, but that doesn't discount the fact that they may be soon.

[Kelven]

There is nothing about this rule set that does not allow for new guilds.

Here.
Guild-Newbie wants to raid.

Guild-Newbie's guild leader makes a post on the forums (raid guilds section?), Hey - We have 15 raiders ready to get on the rotation for this boss, and that boss. Guild - Newbie's GM then informs the current raiding guilds that they will be able to raid in the next rotation.

Guild-Newbie is inserted at the TOP of the sit-out rotation

Raiding guild - raid targetX
Raiding guild - raid targetX
Raiding guild - raid targetX
Raiding guild - raid targetX

Guild-Newbie
sitting out guild
sitting out guild

(all guilds flow down in the list rotation)

Guild-Newbie will be responsible for notifying their surrounding raiding guilds of their request for a spot. Just because a post is made - don't assume everyone trolls the forums all day.

I included a part in my original write up that states - if you can't kill your target in XX hours, then you forfeit - you also lose your spot for a full rotation. I thought this would help with too many new guilds trying to cram themselves into the rotation too fast.

Now 24 hours might seem too long, it would give almost everyone a guaranteed shot. 12 hours would at least give you a chance - and would also allow for the "hardcore 24/7" raiders to be right there waiting when mid-day bosses are sitting up.

However if the window is shortened to 12 hours, forfeiting your spot for a full rotation seems a bit harsh.

[Humerox]

I like the idea.

+1

[Amra]

I'm new to the server and not even 50 yet, but I still don't get what the big deal is here.

Why is FFA such a bad option?

So the more hardcore guilds get more targets...that's why we call them hardcore. It would still allow smaller guilds a chance at said targets. If there was one guild dominating people might step up and challenge them by beating them to targets or just flat out ksing them with numbers.

This happened all the time on live servers. We'd go to a raid target and we'd be buffing and going slow(my first guild wasn't amazing) and along comes elite-guild_001 and just runs in and engages/kill/loots/leaves. There wasn't any notion of holding mobs cause I had X people in the zone before you did.

The whole training each others raids does seem to kinda go to far, but whats with all these rules? First team to engage and kill wins.

[Allizia]

I want FFA just so I can watch shit implode, no one would back down and take an ego hit to their raid tactics. Would have 3-4 guilds clawing each others eyes out while gangbanging some poor bastard dragon in a first to engage/killsteal/train fest

I just need someone to fraps it for me

[Evorix]

I like the idea, but 24hrs is way too long to down a boss. I'm thinking more like 1hour for draco, vox, naggy, inny, and maestro. 6hrs for ct.

[Allizia]

YAY ANOTHER "SOLUTION" this totally reminds me of a few months ago hahah the Gm's cant handle this and they are proving it again.
ill prolly get banned for saying that the GM's cant do their job so read this post now!

Wut? If you are going to make a dummy account at least make the post good

[nerfed]

24 hours is way to long. especially without a variance.

[blizzil]

If this is really classic it should be free for all --

Guilds taking turns on pulls

This is supposed to be classic after all?

I for one think rotations are sissy, the most committed should be rewarded.

[Kelven]

im all for rotation, but change the 24 hour window to kill to 1.5 hours, maybe 3 at the max, but keep it short. especially if you remove variance since guilds should be able to plan for the pop of a mob.

no wipes, you wipe you lose your spot.

both of the above result in FFA. mob, dosent pass off to next guild.

aside from that i'd be happy.

1.5 hours is far too short for CT or Inny. what if the planes are full popped? you can't clear them out in 1.5 hours. 1.5 hours is also such a small window if the boss spawns at 3AM on a weeknight. there's still a good chance that it will be up at the end of the 12 hour window ( 3pm ) because the people who couldn't be on at 3am, probably aren't on at 3pm - therefore the "hardcore" will have their chance.

The point of rotation is to give people a chance. I'd rather not tease a guild with an impossible time window.


Why is FFA such a bad option?

So the more hardcore guilds get more targets...that's why we call them hardcore. It would still allow smaller guilds a chance at said targets. If there was one guild dominating people might step up and challenge them by beating them to targets or just flat out ksing them with numbers.


FFA in itself is too chaotic of an idea to handle. There's already far far far too much drama.

[blizzil]

FFA is not to chaotic - you just take turns on pulls

What is chaotic about that?

[Loke]

1.5 hours is more than enough for Inny.

I personally am against forced rotations. However, this could be a feasable idea assuming the time a guild has claim to amob is extremely limited (i.e. if it's not dead 45 minutes or an hour after it spawns - it's free game.)

[blizzil]

Can anyone tell me while FFA with guilds taking turns on pulls is bad in any way?

Thats how it was on classic

[nicemace]

1.5 hours is far too short for CT or Inny. what if the planes are full popped? you can't clear them out in 1.5 hours. 1.5 hours is also such a small window if the boss spawns at 3AM on a weeknight. there's still a good chance that it will be up at the end of the 12 hour window ( 3pm ) because the people who couldn't be on at 3am, probably aren't on at 3pm - therefore the "hardcore" will have their chance.

The point of rotation is to give people a chance. I'd rather not tease a guild with an impossible time window.



FFA in itself is too chaotic of an idea to handle. There's already far far far too much drama.


obviously CT is an exception but everything else can be done within 1.5 hours, as i said maybe 3 max if you wanna be really forgiving.

thats the point, 3am pops, if a guild can get up and be rdy to kill something if a 3am pops, they should get it after an hour and a half if the rot guild arent on their game.

[Skope]

1.5 hours is more than enough for Inny.

I personally am against forced rotations. However, this could be a feasable idea assuming the time a guild has claim to amob is extremely limited (i.e. if it's not dead 45 minutes or an hour after it spawns - it's free game.)

45 minutes for a full fear clear isn't anywhere near feasible, nor is an hour and a half for either fear or hate. In hate it can certainly be done, but if you're raiding with low numbers than it would be cutting it close. Keep in mind that we might actually see trackers sitting in planes/zones waiting for a pop without a 30-man force sitting next to them.

Factor in mobilization time, amount of time to clear and a small prep before engagement. The windows may even differ depending on the target/zone, with fear being the tougher clear partially due to the AC change whereas hate might be a shorter time frame, and then dragons even lower. Of course this all varies on how much we want to reward guilds who are willing to get up at off hours and how much leniency guilds who don't do this may actually get, and then whether a solid time frame should be applied for all targets/planes or one that varies depending on the zone.

[nicemace]

obviously fear/ct is an exception people. as evorix said, 6 hours for ct would be more than fair.

[nerfed]

CT spawns Draco. You might as well make the same guild get both to prevent the intentional Draco / Golem agro to start DT's and slow the guild down. You would also need rules for who gets 2nd try after rotation guild fails their timer.

[Evorix]

45 minutes for a full fear clear isn't anywhere near feasible, nor is an hour and a half for either fear or hate. In hate it can certainly be done, but if you're raiding with low numbers than it would be cutting it close. Keep in mind that we might actually see trackers sitting in planes/zones waiting for a pop without a 30-man force sitting next to them.

Factor in mobilization time, amount of time to clear and a small prep before engagement. The windows may even differ depending on the target/zone, with fear being the tougher clear partially due to the AC change whereas hate might be a shorter time frame, and then dragons even lower. Of course this all varies on how much we want to reward guilds who are willing to get up at off hours and how much leniency guilds who don't do this may actually get, and then whether a solid time frame should be applied for all targets/planes or one that varies depending on the zone.

I'm pretty sure loke knows 45minutes for a fear clear is unrealistic... but 1hr/1hr 15mins for anything is can be done. 5-6hrs would be feasible for CT. Most of the stuff is currently at 30mins to be pulled or u r skipped. This would give 30 extra minutes to mobilize, which should be plenty.

I see it as the only way to give each guild a fair chance, but still gives the raid scene some competition and rewards the hardcore guilds.

[Loke]

Skope, that goes without saying - I was assuming that we were going to go by the current 2 golems down thing for CT since that is indeed a special circumstance. Everything (including 2 golems) is extremely do-able in 45 minutes. Both DA and IB have done them all (again 2 golems, not CT himself) numerous times.

[Skope]

There's a discrepancy in the recognized raid force and the viable amount of time to engage a target. Inny can be done with 3 groups but then it would require a longer time for a clear than say a 40 man inny run. There then should be accommodation for both sizes of raid force for the proper amount of time for a clear to him, and of course CT would be even longer, since both sized forces would be capable of taking him down.

This could be settled with an "in zone by" time requirement. If a guild isn't at a popped target during their turn on rotation they forfeit rights and it goes to the guild that has the proper sized force to take it on in the zone first without hindering them on their own spot in rotation.

Obviously the rotations shouldn't be set in stone, as guilds will inevitably rise and fall, so perhaps a requirement of a certain target(s) in a given amount of time before you're dropped off the list. This should keep the list relatively small in size and still offer up and comers a chance to prove themselves.

[Loke]

I disagree - events should not be tailored to the raid force. If you cannot muster a raid force to do a mob in a set time limit and another guild can - than that other guild should be afforded their turn. The problem most people have with a rotation is that it takes any sort of competition out of the game - there needs to still be pressure on a guild to perform imo.

[Allizia]

I would definitely set the required raid numbers high, this isn't a 300 pop server anymore and it would prevent people creating "barely enough" or alt guilds (tons of people have more then 1 level 50) to break into a rotation spot.

[Skope]

I disagree - events should not be tailored to the raid force. If you cannot muster a raid force to do a mob in a set time limit and another guild can - than that other guild should be afforded their turn. The problem most people have with a rotation is that it takes any sort of competition out of the game - there needs to still be pressure on a guild to perform imo.

We're actually agreeing, think it's an issue of clarity on either side that's the problem.

Guild A is due for innoruuk, they must be in the zone with 20 within 1 hour (whatever the time is) or they forfeit their place and it goes to the next guild with 20 (or whatever the number is determined to be) without penalizing them.

Thus you still have incentive to track due targets during windows at all times and obviously still requiring mobilization. Guilds who are willing to do their 4am thing can obviously do that and would in turn still see a larger amount of kills per week.

The biggest point of debate would be the time allowed to have a guild in zone, the amount of time to clear fear/hate to get to their target (so guilds can't just sit there AFK till they get their numbers up and the other guild is waiting for hours in line), and finally the recognized viable raid force for a given target.

[Appollo]

I'm pretty sure loke knows 45minutes for a fear clear is unrealistic... but 1hr/1hr 15mins for anything is can be done. 5-6hrs would be feasible for CT. Most of the stuff is currently at 30mins to be pulled or u r skipped. This would give 30 extra minutes to mobilize, which should be plenty.

I see it as the only way to give each guild a fair chance, but still gives the raid scene some competition and rewards the hardcore guilds.

Kelven, thank you for coming up with the idea. You obviously put some thought into it. Hopefully with some constructive criticism it can become better. I agree with Evorix insofar as 24 hours is too long for an attempt on a mob. 5 Hours should be sufficient for CT.

1 hour should be sufficient for the other mobs.

With the fact that CT pops Draco, I see that as having one of two outcomes: (1) Guild with CT gets Draco (still within 5 hours) or (2) Guild that is currently on Draco rotation gets that Draco (which would effectively help the guild currently on CT rotation).

On a personal note, I'm indifferent as to whether there should be a rotation or the system should stay the same. On the one hand, the current system has it's flaws. On the other hand, I enjoy the "competition" more than I would enjoy a rotation. However, a rotation, at least in theory, would eliminate some of the issues with that arise within the current system.