Nostradamus thread

[Tradesonred]

Teams will be unbalanced in population, one team will take the lead creating a self-sustaining vortex of zerg, server will turn into a PVE server again.

Blahblahblah so negative!

FFA is the best type of server, was just badly handled.

- No xp loss
- 4 lvl range
- Item loot with patched in custom set of tiered no drop gear to offset harshness of item loot
- Events that spawn special mobs that give incentive to pvp
- Hotzones that draw pvp

Theres your fun and thriving server

[Tradesonred]

Cast will attempt again to be first 50, fail, and rage quit again.

[Tradesonred]

To be honest, i wish only to be proven false and everyone gets a fun server, but yeah.

[Tassador]

How do I insert the pee wee Herman song on this bad boy!

[Tradesonred]

You mean the Benny Hill theme surely

[Lowlife]

04-01-2011, 02:25 AM

EQ P1999 PVP SERVER

You have two options and I will explain the consequences of those choices:

1 - Make a no teams, FFA style PvP server.

2 - Make a two team, dark vs light based, diety based, or race war type server.

I played Sullon Zek since day one and TZVZ for a long time. I'm gonna lay it out exactly how this works. If you make this PvP server a FFA rule set this is what happens:


FFA, no teams PvP server:


Day 1 you will see 30-40 man guilds pop up. There will be Heresy, some random TZ or SZ guild, and a few random blue server guilds that show up with a zerg of people. You'll probably have four or five viable or semi-viable guilds roaming around. Each guild will monopolize some area like Guk, Karnors, whatever.

After a few weeks, one of the guilds implodes and you're down to three. Now there will be two guilds monopolizing spawns, loot, and beating the shit out of the most likely lower population third guild. The demoralized 3rd guild starts bleeding members, some just plain quit, others join the 2 dominant guilds. Then the 3rd guild completely vanishes except that one guy who just got out of prison and logged back into the game at level 3 with now defunct guild tag.

Now you're a few months into the server with a constant day to day brawl of the two dominant guilds fighting for dragons. This goes on a long time and during this entire process, server will constantly drop in population. New players that join the server during this period of time will mostly be standing around by themselves, occasionally get ganked by a level 50, have nobody to group with, and solo their way to 50 because everyone on a FFA server is your enemy.

The majority of these new people will just plain quit. An occasional few will make it to the top but the server will be losing way more people than it's gaining due to this kind of alienation of the new player.

Now the server population is like 100 people: 30 people in guild A, 30 people in guild B, and 30-40 random noobs wandering around. The leader of one of the guilds gets charged with some kind of bestiality sex crimes IRL (probably Heresy). The guild disbands, only one guild remains, server ends.


Next choice is teams based server:


Similar number of people start on day one. The 30 man guilds move into their positions to try and monopolize some area. A random evil guild stands around on shores of oasis killing alligators and starts leveling fast. A low level crapling comes into the zone, see's them, and zones out to go tell all the other craplings. All of a sudden a giant tidal wave of low level craplings starts to pour into the zone and the highest level troll on the server will have 8 halflings clinging to him like some scene from Lord of the Rings.

All of the craplings die and the entire beach is covered in corpses but the uber, evil guild is completely unable to do any leveling so their progress is held back the entire day. The low level craplings then respawn in Misty Thicket and form a guild with the name "Flowers of Happiness".

This goes on for months. One or two guilds will eventually die but each of the two teams will maintain at least one uber guild and one casual or noob guild. At this point, the FFA server would most likely be in it's death spiral but the teams server population would be better off due to lack of alienation of the new or casual player. It might even still be growing.

The uber guild will constantly use their teams noob guild as human shields in order to defend themselves from attack while raiding so there will always be something to do, someone to attack, someone to group with.

The overall effect is much slower progression, more PvP, higher population, and the server's main zerg guilds have much less power and effect on the server world overall due to having to fight much bigger battles against more opponents. When one team's uber guild leader goes to prison, there will most likely always be a secondary guild ready to step in and take over the team and the server avoids collapse.

This rule set would basically be Sullon Zek type setup except with two teams instead of three. Three teams always implodes due to one of the three always ending up much weaker so it's not a viable choice.


Training, Corpse Camping, Other Random Cool Stuff

The way I feel on this issue is that if you can't hard code something, it shouldn't be a rule in the first place. It takes way too much manpower and there are too many variables involved in solving disputes about training and corpse camping. Even on TZVZ where there was a no-training rule with GM's enforcing it and banning people, you always saw people do it anyway. They'll make a 1 foot detour to the side while being chased and make it look like they accidentally did it or the best tactic of all, just run into a giant camp of mobs when someone is attacking you and you're about to die. The surviving guy then brings the huge train back to his guild and they both blame each other for training as everyone in the zone wipes.

I get the feeling the devs do not want this to be a high maintenance server so I only see one logical solution that fixes both of these problems at the same time. Give the priest of discord the ability to summon corpses after they've been dead X number of hours or just implement the shadowrest zone and all corpses pop there after X number of hours. This way you don't need any rules concerning corpse camping and training or really any rules at all.

Now if you're in Plane of Hate and someone trains you for fun (even when it would have originally been against server rules), you don't have a 48 hour long CR. You just log off and come back the next day and go summon your corpse at priest of discord or get it from Shadowrest. Some people are gonna start whining and say "omg training is so terrible omg, I don't want training to be legal". When I played Sullon Zek, training was encouraged and I never even died from a train once. I even had people like Fansy the bard running Sand giants at me. It's really not that big of a deal. You typically already know which direction the train is coming from and who is bringing it to you before it even arrives. So you either take off running, hide, gate, or kill them. It's a pretty easy element of PvP to deal with.

If I was to personally choose an arbitrary number, I would probably make the priest of discord or Shadowrest guy summon your corpse after it's been dead for 4 hours. I think that game mechanic would make it so death in enemy territory would have a long enough penalty but still doesn't prevent you from playing the remainder of the entire day.


Possible Team Setups


Race War using race as selection variable: Probably the best choice since each team gets every class

Dark Elf Alliance (evil)

Dark Elf
Troll
Iksar
Ogre
Half Elf
Erudite


Human Alliance (good)

Human
Dwarf
Gnome
Halfling
High Elf
Barbarian
Wood Elf


Good vs Evil using diety as variable for selection: This setup tries to keep all the races like halflings and elves on one side and trolls and ogres on the other. Might have to disable selection of agnostic somehow because too many races get it. Good team gets no necros or shadowknights and evils get no rangers, druids, or paladins. Diety distribution looks lopsided but it doesn't really matter, People don't choose them equally and you basically just choose your team at player creation. Population on both teams would probably be similar. Evil has more offense, Good team has more healing.

Good team:

karana
tunare
elrollisi
brell
mithaniel
tribunal
quellious
rodcet
prexus
bristlebane
sol ro


Evil Team:

innoruk
bertox
rallos
cazic thule
veeshan


Expansions at Start


Most P1999 and TZVZ players are probably tired of original expansion with no kunark by now. I would either release Kunark on day one or make it so Kunark opens after Nag, Vox, CT, and Innoruk are dead.

[Tradesonred]

Not bad but what makes you think most of the servers pop can work together, making teams better. I really dont see a bunch of lowbies serving as meat shield for a guild not even for Nihilum. Maybe if guild starts to merc it out.

And if there isnt a level restriction, i really dont see the PVEers from Nihi etc missing a raid to play white knights against the meanies griefing their teams lowbies.

I think it will be even worse on teams for one reason: Teams are hard coded

So now on red i read that Heartbrand defected "to the other team" and will try to start something. On team, if one team starts winning, its pretty much done. Its hard enough trying to put some people together when people gravitate to the zerg like a black hole, imagine if u had to delete your char and start over lol

It would take a ruleset i cant think of for it to work, and i have no idea how they think they will handle a 70% 30% hard coded pop balance.

It might work, but i dont see how.

I guess well find out soonish

[Nune]

Not gonna lie, that post was pretty persuasive. Though I've been a proponent of 3 teams, I would set sail on ^ ship

[Nune]

god dammit Trade you fucked up my cool ^ referencing Wermachts post

[Tradesonred]

FFA allows for guild politics, and to have a guild like Asylum in Darkfall. Theyre mercs, so sometimes i see them against us in a raid cuz theyve been contracted by the other alliance, and if we paid em, they fight for us. Sometimes they dont fight for either side and are roaming raids to gank for loots. Thats the flexibility u get from FFA.

[Lowlife]

Not bad but what makes you think most of the servers pop can work together, making teams better. I really dont see a bunch of lowbies serving as meat shield for a guild not even for Nihilum. Maybe if guild starts to merc it out.

And if there isnt a level restriction, i really dont see the PVEers from Nihi etc missing a raid to play white knights against the meanies griefing their teams lowbies.

I think it will be even worse on teams for one reason: Teams are hard coded

So now on red i read that Heartbrand defected "to the other team" and will try to start something. On team, if one team starts winning, its pretty much done. Its hard enough trying to put some people together when people gravitate to the zerg like a black hole, imagine if u had to delete your char and start over lol

It would take a ruleset i cant think of for it to work, and i have no idea how they think they will handle a 70% 30% hard coded pop balance.

It might work, but i dont see how.

I guess well find out soonish



1. people will be relegated to a team, by IP, and a dominate guild will form within each team.

2. +/- 4

3. No cross teaming for the formation of pan-team zergs.

4. Heartbrand could potentially be a heavy hitter on t99 if he chose to play it and lead red dawn, maybe some charles bronson etc folk to a 3r d team option not populated by nilly or former holocaust. Theres 3 teams right there.

5. It will work, blubies and casuels are already expressing more interest in t99 than they did r99. r99 had a 660+ pop for weeks, that diminished because of...

a. the server languished in disrepair, rogean was engaged in SWTOR
b. the exp loss / exp rate was too harsh for many
c. the banning of holocaust and rise of nihilium (Instantly removing all server competition not due to one party being better at pvp or pve, or one party having a cleaner whistle. They were both exploiting Nagafen pathing, Nihilum just had a Dev in their Guild.)
d. the lack of availability of exp groups for people not of the initial population burst from launch (hardcoded teams fixes this)
e. lack of anything to differentiate it from blue (for non-pvp enthusiasts i.e. casuals and blues), except it was a pain in the ass. Item loot, teams, and FV style no-no drops fixes this.
f. null's custom resists, etc

i could go on but, you get the idea.

[Tradesonred]

1. people will be relegated to a team, by IP, and a dominate guild will form within each team.

2. +/- 4

3. No cross teaming for the formation of pan-team zergs.

4. Heartbrand could potentially be a heavy hitter on t99 if he chose to play it and lead red dawn, maybe some charles bronson etc folk to a 3r d team option not populated by nilly or former holocaust. Theres 3 teams right there.

5. It will work, blubies and casuels are already expressing more interest in t99 than they did r99. r99 had a 660+ pop for weeks, that diminished because of...

a. the server languished in disrepair, rogean was engaged in SWTOR
b. the exp loss / exp rate was too harsh for many
c. the banning of holocaust and rise of nihilium
d. the lack of availability of exp groups for people not of the initial population burst from launch (hardcoded teams fixes this)
e. lack of anything to differentiate it from blue (for non-pvp enthusiasts i.e. casuals and blues), except it was a pain in the ass. Item loot, teams, and FV style no-no drops fixes this.
f. null's custom resists, etc

i could go on but, you get the idea.

Yeah but its not random. You think Nihilum wont have a big caucus to decide which team theyll pick? And smart griefers will get on Nihilums team for the lulz.

Im not sure how teams fixes people not finding groups. Without xp bonus to groups, itll be the same cliques not allowing outsiders to group with em.

I just dont see it

Maybe itll work out, but im putting my money on the fail horse

[Lowlife]

Yeah but its not random. You think Nihilum wont have a big caucus to decide which team theyll pick? And smart griefers will get on Nihilums team for the lulz.

Im not sure how teams fixes people not finding groups. Without xp bonus to groups, itll be the same cliques not allowing outsiders to group with em.

I just dont see it

Nobody said there wouldn't be a grouping xp bonus. in fact i'd probably place money on there being one.

most lulsy greifers will roll on evil so they can run around and harmtouch people at 50% fighting a giant scarab. or a druid so they can root bards kiting. (which puts them on 2 separate teams in all likelihood.) Not to join Nilly.

teams fixes xp groups because you'll have a safety net of core people, within a smaller selection of zones, and a team-only chat channel with which you can find people you are certain won't kill you when you go grab another beer, and that you have to fend off the rest of the world with. This lets people make pals.

I wouldn't be suprised if Nilly actually fields a shitty force on teams, favoring instead to farm their dead box and hope for the best when it comes to a merger, tbh. Thats why most of them are just really, really hoping teams fails and t99 gets merged into red, and not vica versa.

The last bullet point above is why I now supper DrScience's approach to item loot and droppables.

[Tradesonred]

Nobody said there wouldn't be a grouping xp bonus. in fact i'd probably place money on there being one.

most lulsy greifers will roll on evil so they can run around and harmtouch people at 50% fighting a giant scarab. or a druid so they can root bards kiting. (which puts them on 2 separate teams in all likelihood.) Not to join Nilly.

teams fixes xp groups because you'll have a safety net of core people, within a smaller selection of zones, and a team-only chat channel with which you can find people you are certain won't kill you when you go grab another beer, and that you have to fend off the rest of the world with. This lets people make pals.

I wouldn't be suprised if Nilly actually fields a shitty force on teams, favoring instead to farm their dead box and hope for the best when it comes to a merger, tbh. Thats why most of them are just really, really hoping teams fails and t99 gets merged into red, and not vica versa.

The last bullet point above is why I now supper DrScience's approach to item loot and droppables.

Well yea ok that makes sense that people will inevitably be friendlier when theyve been in a fight or 2 together, protecting each other by default, granted.

I dont know, thats a lot of variables to get right.

[Lowlife]

My hypothesis is confirmed.

I wouldn't be suprised if Nilly actually fields a shitty force on teams, favoring instead to farm their dead box and hope for the best when it comes to a merger, tbh.


Once teams are announced we will have 9-12 months to adjust. It wont be hard since we should be 6+ months into Velious before the merger.

If we choose a team without Paladins then all of our paladins will just remake and regear in Velious as something else in preparation for teams. Not a big deal considering almost all gear gets replaced in velious.

[Rec]

You don't need to be Nostradamus to know people won't like item loot

[Vile]

teams gonna be lame unless pop is over 300

[krazyGlue]

its easy you build a cap. for example. if xx team has 50active players and the other team only has 30. you lockout the xx team with 50 so new players are force to join the 30 to try and keep population balanced

[Nytch]

its easy you build a cap. for example. if xx team has 50active players and the other team only has 30. you lockout the xx team with 50 so new players are force to join the 30 to try and keep population balanced

This is a terrible idea. What if I want to play an ogre warrior but cant because that team is capped, or what if my RL friend or ex guild mates from live plays on that capped team and I can't join them? Looks like I'm just gonna play on Blue or not play at all. Bye bye all potential new players.

Please think your thoughts through to conclusion before posting.

[Vile]

most people don't think (truly) logically, so good luck here brews

[SamwiseRed]

ffa has worked out great so far :)

[Nirgon]

1 guild will get most of the content.

AMAZING prediction.

Having mechanics in place that provide entertainment other than creaming your pants over 14 year old pixels is what will help the population much more.

Blue right now, is pretty damn classic by my standards with very few withstanding issues. It's fun even if you aren't in the top 1 percentile of pixel gainers.

Red, is not fun. It's empty and the pvp was a root spam fest even though I was assured by local geniuses that it wasn't. Imagine my surprise when I returned.

[SamwiseRed]

1 guild will get most of the content.

AMAZING prediction.

Having mechanics in place that provide entertainment other than creaming your pants over 14 year old pixels is what will help the population much more.

Blue right now, is pretty damn classic by my standards with very few withstanding issues. It's fun even if you aren't in the top 1 percentile of pixel gainers.

Red, is not fun. It's empty and the pvp was a root spam fest even though I was assured by local geniuses that it wasn't. Imagine my surprise when I returned.

i havent been rooted since patch btw. i roll with 100 mr give or take.

[Nirgon]

Try having 60mr at server launch after getting bracers/neck crafted for you and a few misc pieces like blood stained tunic. Go into group pvp, get rooted ~50% of the time. No bueno.

[Kergan]

Try having 60mr at server launch after getting bracers/neck crafted for you and a few misc pieces like blood stained tunic. Go into group pvp, get rooted ~50% of the time. No bueno.

What is the fix then? Making MR resist checks across the board easier would gimp any offensive ability enchanters or clerics have. Maybe that is ok?

Diminishing returns on CC spells? Temporary immunity? PVP specific durations at 25-50% of PVE values?

Clearly when people complain about resists 90% of that centers around roots, stuns and mezzes. Maybe we can treat those as a separate entity and tackle them as CC spells. How would spells like the darkness line get handled in that system? Are the resists good/bad on FR/MR/PR/DR?

A lot of questions and not many (if any answers) in this post, but things worth discussing...

[Nirgon]

Lucy has the spell data that mostly checked out for me as being classic along the the pvp max calcs and the -resist per level.

IE: If you have 51 magic resist against an even con, root should never land.

Playing here I found myself wearing any amount of magic resist in every slot just to have any better chance of dealing with root. Players shouldn't have to wear a tranix crown just to deal with root/snare or even be at a 2% chance. In a 30v30 if the enemy has 10 casters, you are looking at a 20% chance to be rooted every time they all try to root you so the mouth breathers who leave auto attack on can just roll over you and instagib.

I always wore a froglok crown in pvp, and certainly didn't have to have jac rings over diamond. I didn't get hit for full damage wildfires/sunstrikes really ever at 120 fire. I also certainly didn't try to spam non-lures on players that I knew had full resist gear.

[Kergan]

Lucy has the spell data that mostly checked out for me as being classic along the the pvp max calcs and the -resist per level.

IE: If you have 51 magic resist against an even con, root should never land.

Playing here I found myself wearing any amount of magic resist in every slot just to have any better chance of dealing with root. Players shouldn't have to wear a tranix crown just to deal with root/snare or even be at a 2% chance. In a 30v30 if the enemy has 10 casters, you are looking at a 20% chance to be rooted every time they all try to root you so the mouth breathers who leave auto attack on can just roll over you and instagib.

I always wore a froglok crown in pvp, and certainly didn't have to have jac rings over diamond. I didn't get hit for full damage wildfires/sunstrikes really ever at 120 fire. I also certainly didn't try to spam non-lures on players that I knew had full resist gear.

Would you agree with making it so 51+ MR on an even con would make you immune to root? That's basically base resist + resist magic.

Definitely agree on wearing jacinth over diamond. I don't even think I had jacinth or wolf's eye gear on RZ, but I was in full diamond gear 100% of the time (even PVE, easy to get away with as an ench).

So I guess the debate becomes, do we adjust the scale so you essentially make yourself immune to CC with less effort than now, or do we try to make a system where you're getting hit with MR based spells sometimes but they have far less an impact?

What about making MR spells much easier to resist, but MR debuffs have a greater effect on players to encourage people debuffing more?

[Nirgon]

Who the hell really wants to play on a server where they need a tranix crown + jac rings just to deal with root (barely) that actually enjoys PvP on EQ? Seriously?

I did play, I do know the answers and can even research or bring in others from the community who played during the era to cross reference my assertions.

I just am not sure even with Alecta at the helm, if that is the goal. I don't like the custom direction things are heading (hey have ya met me?) and the classic system was hardly flawed. People (not just 5 griefer jerks) did truly enjoy it.

[Alecta]

I am definitely open to ratcheting down needed resist values when opening T99, especially since we will have a beta period. (And item loot needs classic resists.)

I try to tread with a bit of a lighter touch with R99, since the server's been out so long and any changes don't go through a beta period. Perhaps that's a bit misguided, but that's what I aim for. So when Nizzar says +40% resist rate across the board, I am inclined to agree, but that's not what I am going to slap onto R99 next patch.

PS - My vote for T99 is hard-coded SZ teams, +/- 4 levels, RZ style item loot, FV style no-drops, more classic resists (most spells partial heavily around 110, resist outright at 150ish - at least through Kunark.). Easy to understand, easy to code.

That horse is already a camel, so who knows what sort of beast we will end up with when everyones had their input.

[Kergan]

Who the hell really wants to play on a server where they need a tranix crown + jac rings just to deal with root (barely) that actually enjoys PvP on EQ? Seriously?

I did play, I do know the answers and can even research or bring in others from the community who played during the era to cross reference my assertions.

I just am not sure even with Alecta at the helm, if that is the goal. I don't like the custom direction things are heading (hey have ya met me?) and the classic system was hardly flawed. People (not just 5 griefer jerks) did truly enjoy it.

Do we have hard numbers on how RZ was coded? Looking up spell resist modifiers is only a very small piece of the puzzle. There were a lot of PVP specific resist changes, damage modifications, etc.

I guess I'm not sure either, if the goal is a classic resist system or to make one up from scratch. I think resists in general are off both in PVP and PVE, I've noticed it is nearly impossible to land spells on yellow cons and very difficult on even cons until they are debuffed in PVE and I don't remember it being such a struggle on live.

[Kergan]

I am definitely open to ratcheting down needed resist values when opening T99, especially since we will have a beta period. (And item loot needs classic resists.)

I try to tread with a bit of a lighter touch with R99, since the server's been out so long and any changes don't go through a beta period. Perhaps that's a bit misguided, but that's what I aim for. So when Nizzar says +40% resist rate across the board, I am inclined to agree, but that's not what I am going to slap onto R99 next patch.

So up it 5% every patch until it seems right?

[Alecta]

The system I am putting in place doesnt require patches to adjust those values.

Nilbog can log in and ratchet them up or down sans patch.

[Nirgon]

My vote for T99 is hard-coded SZ teams, +/- 4 levels, RZ style item loot, FV style no-drops, more classic resists (most spells partial heavily around 110, resist outright at 150ish - at least through Kunark.). Easy to understand, easy to code.

This shit right here is why after being told over and over the right areas were getting serious attention that I was glad I took a look back here.

He wants shit pretty classic! He's also able to differentiate that we need resists fixes BEFORE item loot, something I have been trying to say but get parsed out only as "you want a griefathon item loot system".

If you are in just planar, you will be BETTER OFF than you are here in full gear for the most part.

It's a great system if you give it a chance and learn to play it. Classes like necros even become strong and viable, extremely strong in capable hands. Instead of a class that trades 2 dots for 2 nukes and dies, and the dots are easily dispelled by just cancel magic (I have a bug post that would *greatly* help both servers on dispel mechanics and I think buff order too).

I'm not 100% on FV's style of no drops... I think planar was droppable there? But epics weren't? Something along those lines, GLAD TO ADMIT I'M NOT SURE ON THAT :).

[Kergan]

This shit right here is why after being told over and over the right areas were getting serious attention that I was glad I took a look back here.

He wants shit pretty classic! He's also able to differentiate that we need resists fixes BEFORE item loot, something I have been trying to say but get parsed out only as "you want a griefathon item loot system".

If you are in just planar, you will be BETTER OFF than you are here in full gear for the most part.

It's a great system if you give it a chance and learn to play it. Classes like necros even become strong and viable, extremely strong in capable hands. Instead of a class that trades 2 dots for 2 nukes and dies, and the dots are easily dispelled by just cancel magic (I have a bug post that would *greatly* help both servers on dispel mechanics and I think buff order too).

I'm not 100% on FV's style of no drops... I think planar was droppable there? But epics weren't? Something along those lines, GLAD TO ADMIT I'M NOT SURE ON THAT :).

Not sure anyone is going to pipe up with in depth knowledge of the FV ruleset, lol. Maybe OG RMT kingpins?

Also, picking a bunch of classic features from different servers and putting them together is not classic, as no server ever existed with those rules. So are you breaking a little bit from the classic or bust mindset???

[Vile]

savior nirgon

[Nirgon]

I'm never breaking from classic or bust. I've warned against the dangers of cross teaming and the evil race being immediately over populated creating a lack luster blue server. There will be great amusement to be had for months before this eventually happens.

I'm merely saying item loot can work and classic resists are way better than what we have now. When I say you'll be fine in no drop, I do not mean without resist changes. In fact, even with full resist gear here, you really aren't "fine" in mass pvp.

2% chance, 10 people trying to root. 5 roots from each, you're going to get rooted and instagibbed in 30v30. Try to finish a pumice cast before you die btw (I'm very familiar with dispel mechanics, feel like I had to add this).

[HippoNipple]

I'm never breaking from classic or bust. I've warned against the dangers of cross teaming and the evil race being immediately over populated creating a lack luster blue server. There will be great amusement to be had for months before this eventually happens.

I'm merely saying item loot can work and classic resists are way better than what we have now. When I say you'll be fine in no drop, I do not mean without resist changes. In fact, even with full resist gear here, you really aren't "fine" in mass pvp.

2% chance, 10 people trying to root. 5 roots from each, you're going to get rooted and instagibbed in 30v30. Try to finish a pumice cast before you die btw (I'm very familiar with dispel mechanics, feel like I had to add this).

Why do people say this when you could just have 5 wizards cast 1 lure and kill someone instantly, or 10 necros cast a siphon (basically casting something that won't be resisted). Why would you have 1/3 your team casting 5 roots in a row to kill one person. I would think 10 players of almost any class could take down 1 player in the time it takes to cast 5 roots. In the amount of time it takes to do that you lose a couple players yourself.

[Nirgon]

Lure takes twice as long to cast, much easier to get out of range.

4.5 vs 2.0

More classes have access to root than lures and drains.

Welcoming any and all questions.

[HippoNipple]

Lure takes twice as long to cast, much easier to get out of range.

4.5 vs 2.0

More classes have access to root than lures and drains.

Welcoming any and all questions.

Spamming root with 10 people still isn't a good tactic with the current resists. Alecta already changed them slightly.

[Kergan]

That's because with current resists one person spamming root is usually enough. EQ PVP was an afterthought really, and the game mechanics weren't designed with PVP in mind. Root is ridiculously overpowered when it lands if you think about it, let alone a long duration stun, blind or mez. But we still love it and have to work around these things to create a system that is the most enjoyable.

I think looking at resists is a good start, but should a 40+ second root really exist in a PVP environment?

[Tradesonred]

I am definitely open to ratcheting down needed resist values when opening T99, especially since we will have a beta period. (And item loot needs classic resists.)

I try to tread with a bit of a lighter touch with R99, since the server's been out so long and any changes don't go through a beta period. Perhaps that's a bit misguided, but that's what I aim for. So when Nizzar says +40% resist rate across the board, I am inclined to agree, but that's not what I am going to slap onto R99 next patch.

PS - My vote for T99 is hard-coded SZ teams, +/- 4 levels, RZ style item loot, FV style no-drops, more classic resists (most spells partial heavily around 110, resist outright at 150ish - at least through Kunark.). Easy to understand, easy to code.

That horse is already a camel, so who knows what sort of beast we will end up with when everyones had their input.

With no xp loss, sounds good but you guys better think of something to try to counteract the vortex of zerg im talking about. The bigger the zerg gets, the more player it attracts and it just spirals down. And its hardcoded unlike FFA where players can be shuffled around if theres tension within one big guild.

One thing i like about this fresh start is if you dont put xp loss in, it means those zergs are less intimidating. It means theyll have to actually put in pvp work to get geared up, and it will make for some fun camp control fights so thats something.

[MrSparkle001]

Can someone explain what FV style no drops are? I'm not at all familiar with that.

[Hughman]

PS - My vote for T99 is hard-coded SZ teams, +/- 4 levels, RZ style item loot, FV style no-drops, more classic resists (most spells partial heavily around 110, resist outright at 150ish - at least through Kunark.). Easy to understand, easy to code.

That may be a little harsh for casters, my warrior with 2 pieces of ragefire gear, missing a hate bracer gets near 200 FR self buffed (Ragefire arms). I think more heavy partials and less flat out resists may be the way to go.

[Bazia]

no its not too harsh us non tanks are sick of eating draughts and suntrikes

shits not classic bro, not even close

lure spell gems dusty as fuk

[Hughman]

no its not too harsh us non tanks are sick of eating draughts and suntrikes

shits not classic bro, not even close

lure spell gems dusty as fuk

I agree that as is the resists are dumb, I was referring to his proposed resists.

[Eslade]

I have a very un-classic idea to fix team balancing. Drum roll please....
.
.
.
.
Make the sides with a lower population stronger in PvP. I'm sure that you can somehow scale spell/melee effectiveness in PvP. Server looks like it has a 60/30/10 split? Those 10 percent can pretty much steam roll other teams 1v1.

Or we can all be like me and not care.

[Kastro]

This shit right here is why after being told over and over the right areas were getting serious attention that I was glad I took a look back here.

He wants shit pretty classic! He's also able to differentiate that we need resists fixes BEFORE item loot, something I have been trying to say but get parsed out only as "you want a griefathon item loot system".

If you are in just planar, you will be BETTER OFF than you are here in full gear for the most part.

It's a great system if you give it a chance and learn to play it. Classes like necros even become strong and viable, extremely strong in capable hands. Instead of a class that trades 2 dots for 2 nukes and dies, and the dots are easily dispelled by just cancel magic (I have a bug post that would *greatly* help both servers on dispel mechanics and I think buff order too).

I'm not 100% on FV's style of no drops... I think planar was droppable there? But epics weren't? Something along those lines, GLAD TO ADMIT I'M NOT SURE ON THAT :).

Just about everything but Epics and very few Qest Items were Droppable... Planar = Droppable... we had that on VZTZ during Item loot and it worked just fine... Kept everyone even the best geared players on their toes... BPs were traded back and forth during PVP during fear raids ect... lots of fun.. Kept the Blue mechanic of zerg for no drop out of the picture....

As a new player those rules were no different for me than RZ rules till I joined Heresy and was gifted some planar... which i guarded jealously... It just keeps the Guilds and Players on Top from using their Gear to an unbalanced advantage... Under Rallos Zek only rules the established guild in No Drop as Nothing to Lose and Everyhing to Win... and the smaller newer guild can Lose Everything and Gain Nothing... That is why everything but epic style items being droppable ( Epic Weps, SKy Quested Haste Belts, Dain 9 and 10 Ring, Dain SHoulders, Jboots if quested, Flux Staff, Eyepatch of Plunder, Keys, Spirit Wracked Cords ( not the rings for quest) Ect... keep it very limited and care should be taken to ensure players arent gearing out over lets say 1/3 in that sort of no drop, Everything else should be droppable)

P.S. 6 level range could be pretty interesting... Maybe Remove the Level Advantage in PVP, and make hits, spells, and resists disregard the player or casters level in PVP? And if thats so can Open it up to 8 or 10? Would need to test it of course... but in a Team environment a wide level range is good... allows teams to protect their own players... and allows for very Epic Battles...

[Nirgon]

I'm personally almost OK with planar not being droppable but I do like the idea of having a base set for some stats/resist/ac that can't be taken. Even if most of the pieces are less than optimal.

[Kastro]

the base set would be quest items... ( need to make sure not many OP) shin armor, basalt carapace, banded, leather cloth... enough to group pve some, not really raid or compete pvp at all.... cant let peeps have full TOV and other quest no drop and stomp other players with zero risk... care should be taken that it dorsnt happen... and if it does flag those items droppable... really any non epic 50+ hp or mana item or has big resists should be droppable...so just epics and sky quest haste belts..and for casters pic an item...and spirit cord and dain ring for all...

[Danger]

we can only hope

[SamwiseRed]

you cant stop a zerg from zerging. all devs can do is give us a fair playing field.

[Tradesonred]

you cant stop a zerg from zerging. all devs can do is give us a fair playing field.

I think thats the biggest headache of the teams server. What do you do when one team starts to get largely more populated than another.

If theres one lesson to be learned from red, its dont empower the zerg more than it already is. Xp loss in pvp made it that not alot of people wanted the hassle of losing all that pve progress to contest the zerg guild, and it made for a boring ass server where pvp didnt happen much.

I just came back from a month of Darkfall, so im not sure whats the plan on this but if this is implemented again ill be speechless.

[Danger]

don't ban the only other real opposing guild would be a good start

[Tradesonred]

I think whats bad is that im not even sure devs understand why red99 failed. So are they assuming that you need teams because FFA is inherently inferior?

Many problems with teams are already been spoken about. Unbalanced pop, how to deal with same team raids without turning it into the bad system thats on blue.

So to me if they dont see that and at least try to come up with ways to circumvent the problems that are being layed out, theyre failing again and making the same mistakes of not taking advantage of the feedback thats being given.

What should have been done is get red99 right from the bat, but we cant have that.

To me the best outcome would be a new item loot FFA server, with faster xp, focused on fun pvp.

No xp loss, hotzones, custom no drop armor to offset harshness of item loss that drops off event mobs (maybe even from regular mobs, cuz i think its important that people, especially casuals, get the opportunity to get geared in no drop if you want any chance of building up a healthy pop). You do the initial work to automate like 5 cool events that can be switched on and off by GMs requiring no further work from devs from then on.

But i dont think any of this will happen

[Lowlife]

^

[Aenor]

Agree FFA is best and it's not the absence of teams but the absence and then presence of a certain developer that killed the server but...

- 4 lvl range

And you're worried the server will be too blue?

[Tassador]

Nilihum or the field.... With or without merger taking nilihum to make you all cry again lolers!!

[Tradesonred]

Nilihum or the field.... With or without merger taking nilihum to make you all cry again lolers!!

Nihilum will have a much tougher time keeping its head above water if they ditch xp loss in pvp.

[Danger]

Nihilum will have a much tougher time keeping its head above water if they ditch xp loss in pvp.

they did.. like years ago.

[Stasis01]

I think whats bad is that im not even sure devs understand why red99 failed. So are they assuming that you need teams because FFA is inherently inferior?

Many problems with teams are already been spoken about. Unbalanced pop, how to deal with same team raids without turning it into the bad system thats on blue.

So to me if they dont see that and at least try to come up with ways to circumvent the problems that are being layed out, theyre failing again and making the same mistakes of not taking advantage of the feedback thats being given.

What should have been done is get red99 right from the bat, but we cant have that.

To me the best outcome would be a new item loot FFA server, with faster xp, focused on fun pvp.

No xp loss, hotzones, custom no drop armor to offset harshness of item loss that drops off event mobs (maybe even from regular mobs, cuz i think its important that people, especially casuals, get the opportunity to get geared in no drop if you want any chance of building up a healthy pop). You do the initial work to automate like 5 cool events that can be switched on and off by GMs requiring no further work from devs from then on.

But i dont think any of this will happen

Ugh what a pile of shit.

[Kastro]

I think whats bad is that im not even sure devs understand why red99 failed. So are they assuming that you need teams because FFA is inherently inferior?

Many problems with teams are already been spoken about. Unbalanced pop, how to deal with same team raids without turning it into the bad system thats on blue.

So to me if they dont see that and at least try to come up with ways to circumvent the problems that are being layed out, theyre failing again and making the same mistakes of not taking advantage of the feedback thats being given.

What should have been done is get red99 right from the bat, but we cant have that.

To me the best outcome would be a new item loot FFA server, with faster xp, focused on fun pvp.

No xp loss, hotzones, custom no drop armor to offset harshness of item loss that drops off event mobs (maybe even from regular mobs, cuz i think its important that people, especially casuals, get the opportunity to get geared in no drop if you want any chance of building up a healthy pop). You do the initial work to automate like 5 cool events that can be switched on and off by GMs requiring no further work from devs from then on.

But i dont think any of this will happen

If people are looking for a NO Drop Base set...I have a possible solution... Keep all Planar, and Velious Quest Armor Dropable.... But Make all temple of Sol Ro Quest Armor like Crafted, Totemic, Darkforge, No DROP ( allow Multi questing) would make for lots of PVP in those zones as people try to farm up a set of no drop gear... It would be enough gear to do a rebreak of fear ect.. or do gimpy PVE if you are getting ganked constantly... while keeping anyone who is trying to compete in PVP in mostly droppable gear... ( a few pieces of the sets are actually pretty good )

[Danger]

If people are looking for a NO Drop Base set...I have a possible solution... Keep all Planar, and Velious Quest Armor Dropable.... But Make all temple of Sol Ro Quest Armor like Crafted, Totemic, Darkforge, No DROP ( allow Multi questing) would make for lots of PVP in those zones as people try to farm up a set of no drop gear... It would be enough gear to do a rebreak of fear ect.. or do gimpy PVE if you are getting ganked constantly... while keeping anyone who is trying to compete in PVP in mostly droppable gear... ( a few pieces of the sets are actually pretty good )

[HippoNipple]

If people are looking for a NO Drop Base set...I have a possible solution... Keep all Planar, and Velious Quest Armor Dropable.... But Make all temple of Sol Ro Quest Armor like Crafted, Totemic, Darkforge, No DROP ( allow Multi questing) would make for lots of PVP in those zones as people try to farm up a set of no drop gear... It would be enough gear to do a rebreak of fear ect.. or do gimpy PVE if you are getting ganked constantly... while keeping anyone who is trying to compete in PVP in mostly droppable gear... ( a few pieces of the sets are actually pretty good )

I like it.

[big mouth chew]

plenty of custom servers already exist

[Tradesonred]

plenty of custom servers already exist

Yeah, like red99 for example

[big mouth chew]

Yeah, like red99 for example

ZING!

[Tradesonred]

If people are looking for a NO Drop Base set...I have a possible solution... Keep all Planar, and Velious Quest Armor Dropable.... But Make all temple of Sol Ro Quest Armor like Crafted, Totemic, Darkforge, No DROP ( allow Multi questing) would make for lots of PVP in those zones as people try to farm up a set of no drop gear... It would be enough gear to do a rebreak of fear ect.. or do gimpy PVE if you are getting ganked constantly... while keeping anyone who is trying to compete in PVP in mostly droppable gear... ( a few pieces of the sets are actually pretty good )

Good idea, but i still think we need to add something for the casuals, semi-casuals to keep them around.

[Nirgon]

Juz go with the pure classic dawgs.

[big mouth chew]

drugs work

[HippoNipple]

Good idea, but i still think we need to add something for the casuals, semi-casuals to keep them around.

The casuals have temple of ro quest armor and badass PvP with that system. They are good to go.

[Tradesonred]

The casuals have temple of ro quest armor and badass PvP with that system. They are good to go.

its a long way to 50 for casuals

long enough for neckbeards to do one lap around and catch up to them with twinks

[Kergan]

So take currently droppables and make them non-drop but take currently non-drop and make them droppables?

I know you're hell bent on designing something that punishes the most active players but this is bordering on asinine. I'm trying my best to be constructive, honestly. I like the fact that you're thinking out of the box and putting thought and effort into your ideas. But it seems like the premise of every one of them is to make it so casual players have an easier time, and raiding/more active players are the only ones who can lose.

I'm telling you, none of these ideas will do anything to combat the uberguild mentality. EQ was literally designed around it. Raid mechanics like mobs with over a million HP. Or death touch. Or massive amounts of adds. Those were put in because of the expectation level you'd have 4 or 5 full groups for any raid encounter.

[Nirgon]

Lot of sol ro shit is no drop, its fine

[Kergan]

Lot of sol ro shit is no drop, its fine

I thought almost all of it was droppable? All the classic specific armor for shamans is anyway, the only crap I bothered looking in to. :P

[Tradesonred]

So take currently droppables and make them non-drop but take currently non-drop and make them droppables?

I know you're hell bent on designing something that punishes the most active players but this is bordering on asinine. I'm trying my best to be constructive, honestly. I like the fact that you're thinking out of the box and putting thought and effort into your ideas. But it seems like the premise of every one of them is to make it so casual players have an easier time, and raiding/more active players are the only ones who can lose.

I'm telling you, none of these ideas will do anything to combat the uberguild mentality. EQ was literally designed around it. Raid mechanics like mobs with over a million HP. Or death touch. Or massive amounts of adds. Those were put in because of the expectation level you'd have 4 or 5 full groups for any raid encounter.

How would designing sub par lvl15, lvl30, lvl45 items punish the most active players? I dont get it

What other idea have i proposed that punishes active players?

[Nirgon]

I thought almost all of it was droppable? All the classic specific armor for shamans is anyway, the only crap I bothered looking in to. :P

Acumen Mask, Rune Scale Cloak, Tishan's Kilt, tflux staff all no drop

Couple hands items n' shit

Visible class armor droppable yeah.

[runlvlzero]

If people are looking for a NO Drop Base set...I have a possible solution... Keep all Planar, and Velious Quest Armor Dropable.... But Make all temple of Sol Ro Quest Armor like Crafted, Totemic, Darkforge, No DROP ( allow Multi questing) would make for lots of PVP in those zones as people try to farm up a set of no drop gear... It would be enough gear to do a rebreak of fear ect.. or do gimpy PVE if you are getting ganked constantly... while keeping anyone who is trying to compete in PVP in mostly droppable gear... ( a few pieces of the sets are actually pretty good )

I proposed this like 6 months ago and got flamed for it, but I totally approve of the idea.

[Kastro]

I proposed this like 6 months ago and got flamed for it, but I totally approve of the idea.

Its all about having an ongoing pvp server that stays fluid... if gear can change hands ... pvp will be very meaningful...

[Tradesonred]

another stupid item loot / teams thread

It wasnt stupid until you posted in it, though

[Pudge]

You guys I'm only on page 2 but I have to say something. If you aren't pvping then don't talk like you know what goes down. There are never any "root bombs" going off in mass PvP. It never happens. When a target gets called, the pell train hits. Not the "stand around casting root 5 times" train.

[Pudge]

I have a very un-classic idea to fix team balancing. Drum roll please....
.
.
.
.
Make the sides with a lower population stronger in PvP. I'm sure that you can somehow scale spell/melee effectiveness in PvP. Server looks like it has a 60/30/10 split? Those 10 percent can pretty much steam roll other teams 1v1.

Or we can all be like me and not care.

Do this. It's really the best way to have balanced teams and fun PvP. Make the gains in stats proportional to the active player disparity. At different times of the day even one team may be more powerful than the other. Keep the team numbers on display on the p99 homepage so everyone can always see the number of players on each team (and maybe an average as well). Ppl will naturally want to join the lesser teams if it means it will be easier to bank the zerg for their pixels (if we're actually doing this fv thing, which I am against because I think it will result in bluebies deciding teams is a novelty rather than a serious server). But still. Give advantage to underdog team in PvP is an awesome idea.

[Gustoo]

I think that system is sort of broken.

For example:

In a 3 teams server, 60 percent on evil, 30 percent on neutral, 10 percent on good.

A good guy wizzie should not have maximum1hko nukes when he does drive by shootings at random PVE spots vs his weakened evil opponents.

Since mass PVP is pretty rare compared to random 1v1 encounters when one guy is making some french toast and the other guy is looking for kills.

[Bazia]

I think that system is sort of broken.

For example:

In a 3 teams server, 60 percent on evil, 30 percent on neutral, 10 percent on good.

A good guy wizzie should not have maximum1hko nukes when he does drive by shootings at random PVE spots vs his weakened evil opponents.

Since mass PVP is pretty rare compared to random 1v1 encounters when one guy is making some french toast and the other guy is looking for kills.