let's get real about item loot

[Aenor]

There's a lot of panic out there from posters who shouldn't even care. If you play the game to avoid pvp and amass pixel wealth, there are already two servers custom designed for your needs and wants, Red99 and Blue99. Teams99 is not for you. Stop posting. We don't care what you think about Teams99 if you are scared of item loot.

Now, Sirken has stated that the staff intends a different implementation of item loot than what has been tried in the past. Any discussion of Teams99 should include thoughts on item loot that haven't been tried before. Please don't shit up my thread by crying about past implementations of item loot that didn't work, and therefore have no relevance to the current conversation. Go find a support group.

The first question we have to ask is why does Nilbog want item loot on Teams99. I suspect it's because A. Item loot is Classic. I also suspect it's because B. Nilbog appreciates the social experiment that item loot represents. As someone pointed out in another thread, when item loot exists, people are more careful about who they group and guild with. As soon as item loot was removed from Vallon Zek, it changed from a PvP server to LootWhoreQuest, and remained that way until it faded away.

Project 1999 already has two servers that support LootWhoreQuest, the aforementioned Red99 and Blue99. Teams99 should be about something different. Therefore, here is what I suggest:

TLDR:

All items should be bind on equip. As soon as you equip an item, it is flagged as no drop and can no longer be traded or looted. RMT solved. You can farm manastones, but as soon as you equip it, you can't trade it. And if someone kills you before you can equip it, they can loot it. This makes the game about developing your character, as it should be, rather than about who can amass the biggest pixel hoard. If you're farming something you can't equip, others are free to PK you and take it off your corpse (all inventory should be lootable except equipped items and no drop items in your inventory)

[Kergan]

TLDR:

All items should be bind on equip. As soon as you equip an item, it is flagged as no drop and can no longer be traded or looted. RMT solved. You can farm manastones, but as soon as you equip it, you can't trade it. And if someone kills you before you can equip it, they can loot it. This makes the game about developing your character, as it should be, rather than about who can amass the biggest pixel hoard. If you're farming something you can't equip, others are free to PK you and take it off your corpse (all inventory should be lootable except equipped items and no drop items in your inventory)

I think this type of thought process is what we need in this discussion. NEW ideas, that make PVP loot meaningful but not destructive.

My idea I've stated a few times is to have a SZ style insignia system. Meaningful gear can be purchased with insignias - duplicates of gear like fungi tunics, manastones, etc. This purchased gear would be flagged as PVP lootable. Regular items would not. Maybe make it so if you aren't wearing any PVP flagged items you default back to a 1 droppable item loot system RZ style?

[Dullah]

Hear hear.

Item loot so good.

[Aenor]

I think this type of thought process is what we need in this discussion. NEW ideas, that make PVP loot meaningful but not destructive.

My idea I've stated a few times is to have a SZ style insignia system. Meaningful gear can be purchased with insignias - duplicates of gear like fungi tunics, manastones, etc. This purchased gear would be flagged as PVP lootable. Regular items would not. Maybe make it so if you aren't wearing any PVP flagged items you default back to a 1 droppable item loot system RZ style?

If the devs want to put a huge amount of effort into a custom insignia system with PvP item vendors, they should go all out and have a ball. I tend to believe that the simplest, most elegant solution is usually the best solution. One simple coding change that flags items as no drop the instant you place that item in an equipped slot is all it would take to implement what I am proposing (well... they still have to code the ability to loot inventory but they've already said that's doable).

Not hating on your ideas. As you said, what we need are new ideas, not a rehash of old ideas.

What my system does is allows you to be a mele and camp your ideal gear set without fear that a naked wizard is going to show up and one shot you and take your bp. And if that wizard shows up and kill steals your mob and loots your bp, you've got a chance to take that wizard down and loot it back from them since they can't equip it.

[Potus]

How ironic you call item loot opponents bluebies.

Who is the one calling for easily acquiring items without any effort?

[Kergan]

If the devs want to put a hug amount of effort into a custom insignia system with PvP item vendors, they should go all out and have a ball. I tend to believe that the simplest, most elegant solution is usually the best solution. One simple coding change that flags items as no drop the instant you place that item in an equipped slot is all it would take to implement what I am proposing (well... they still have to code the ability to loot inventory but they've already said that's doable).

Not hating on your ideas. As you said, what we need are new ideas, not a rehash of old ideas.

Didn't EQ have a bind on equip system at some point? I can't imagine it would be hard to make all items BOE.

[Aenor]

Who is the one calling for easily acquiring items without any effort?

Lack of effort would be not even showing up for the raid, just paypaling the raid leader with some utility money and then logging in to collect your items. You know. Like what goes on on Red99 and Blue99 every day.

Obtaining items would be more difficult, not less, under this system. But it addresses the imbalance of naked casters who are 90% effective without gear attacking mele's who are 30% effective without gear. You can be a mele with a full set of gear and never have to worry about getting your main gear taken away.

[Aenor]

Didn't EQ have a bind on equip system at some point? I can't imagine it would be hard to make all items BOE.

Zek implemented augments that combined with your gear to add stats and made the item no trade. The augment could be removed later, however.

[Vexenu]

So what exactly would people be looting, if everything you equip once is flagged no drop?

Potions? Bandages? Food? Vendor trash items? Gems?

All your resist gear and utility items (Fishbone earring, Bracer of the Hidden, etc...) would become no drop. There would be hardly anything of value to loot.

So as someone who is against item loot, I would support this proposal. Simply because it's hardly even item loot at all. More like trash loot.

[Potus]

Lack of effort would be not even showing up for the raid, just paypaling the raid leader with some utility money and then logging in to collect your items. You know. Like what goes on on Red99 and Blue99 every day.

Please tell me how item loot will fix people paying for no drop gear rights. I'm all ears :rolleyes:

Obtaining items would be more difficult, not less, under this system. But it addresses the imbalance of naked casters who are 90% effective without gear attacking mele's who are 30% effective without gear. You can be a mele with a full set of gear and never have to worry about getting your main gear taken away.

How? Melees will lose to casters as soon as they get banded mail and will quit playing. It's happened on every other pvp item loot server in EQ's existence.

[Aenor]

So as someone who is against item loot, I would support this proposal. Simply because it's hardly even item loot at all. More like trash loot.

Here's a scenario. A warrior and a wizard are killing the evil eye when a SK and mage show up and attack them. The wizard finishes off the evil eye but dies to the mage pet before he can loot it. The warrior kills the mage.

Now, if the warrior then loots a manastone off the evil eye, he can't equip it, and thus can't make it no drop. If the SK subsequently kills the warrior, he can loot the manastone from the warrior's inventory.

Please tell me how item loot will fix people paying for no drop gear rights. I'm all ears :rolleyes:.

It won't eliminate RMT altogether but it will reduce it by approximately 90%. The rest of your post is mad and bad and not worth responding to.

[Potus]

Laffo I agree my post is bad I should have just pulled numbers out of my ass like your 90% statistic.

[Bazia]

Aenor is a dumb red99 nihilum zergling

[Pudge]

So as someone who is against item loot, I would support this proposal. Simply because it's hardly even item loot at all. More like trash loot.

That is the point. The system has to be acceptable to even ppl who don't like item loot. "Trash loot" it is not. There are many useful items you do not equip, also any items you bluebie-farm for resale are at risk. The fact that this system allows you to progress your char with no fear, while at the same time curb pixel farmers (slightly- we know they will gate and bank the manastone for sale immediately) is interesting.

The system would keep the economy in a constant state of demand because loot would never be removable from alts - if you're gonna equip that fungi, you better be serious.

Perhaps some items, like weapons, should be non-lootable but still remain droppable after equipping. Just so you can gibe hand-me-downs out.

Bind on equip for breastplates etc. Will mean no resale or hand me downs of this type either. And this puts a real strain/onus on new players you might want to give a boost to. Aenor I Like your idea a lot because it's fresh and not too griefy. But what if when you equipped an item it became no-drop... UNTIL you put it in the bank, at which point it reverts to its natural status. This way items can still retain their resale value, as well as be traded to others for temporary use, and not be completely tied up on 1 toon.

I think this system could work. Also has potential to snipe an item of value (someone takes the item out of bank and forgets to equip.. or intends to sell it for plat but gets ganked) but mostly protects ppl from losing their gear.

Might still be too grief for a few ppl when they lose something, because there are still valuable items ppl will be rolling around with unequipped, but this is one of the best item loot suggestions IMO.

[Alecta]

Thoughts on only being able to loot trade skill craftable jewelry regardless of if it is bagged? (Earrings + rings + necklaces)

Just proposing outside the normal all or nothing approach (not sure if it was mentioned in other threads, not reading them all this week.)

[Colgate]

make everything droppable and lootable

except for weapons

[Dullah]

Thoughts on only being able to loot trade skill craftable jewelry regardless of if it is bagged? (Earrings + rings + necklaces)

Just proposing outside the normal all or nothing approach (not sure if it was mentioned in other threads, not reading them all this week.)

Then people will just find noncrafted jewelry to wear, and will get their resists in other slots.

More you can loot, the merrier.

[Smedy]

ill play item loot, others wont

its a recipie for an empty server unless you make the server very unclassic, like special loot system, nothing like they had it on live.

[heartbrand]

yo cast lay off the keyboard

[Aenor]

But what if when you equipped an item it became no-drop... UNTIL you put it in the bank, at which point it reverts to its natural status. This way items can still retain their resale value, as well as be traded to others for temporary use, and not be completely tied up on 1 toon.

New ideas > QQ. I pulled that stat out of my ass as well. I like this but, as someone who tools around on foot with my war with no jboots, this would throw a gigantic advantage to casters who can bind at a bank.

Thoughts on only being able to loot trade skill craftable jewelry regardless of if it is bagged? (Earrings + rings + necklaces)

Seems like Sirken or Nilbog might have thrown this one out there, not sure. You could certainly limit my bind on equip concept to actual armor slots and not jewelry slots in the name of science, if you so desire. This thread is mainly about the merits of bind on equip versus making all items dropable and lootable, similar to the VZTZ era where planar was trade-able, thus encouraging more item farming.

[compulsion]

You want 30 groups of 5 running around the server fighting, you DON'T want one group of 100 forcing everyone to quit because they're rolling around in no drop and don't give one shlt that you're killing them because they will just wait until everyone logs on and go raid some more. These people don't care about dying repeatedly like cattle, but they will care if they start losing their items and they wonder why am I guilded with these complete idiots who can't help me defend my pixels, and they will say hey small guild thats stealing all our hard earned shit - can I join up with you?

Pretty sure that fielding 2-3x the numbers of your opposition(the red99 paradigm) is a fairly solid defense against getting PK'd and losing your item. Item loot changes nothing about the organization of the game and gives people even more reason hide in a sanctuary guild(or "zerg"). The only reason you celebrate the names you drop is because there were so FEW actual PKs on RZ, which also had a lower population than VZ or TZ.

RZ was a bunch of blue players raiding away with a handful or notorious PK guilds that came and went mostly by the month. It was fun as hell on so many levels. Rivalries, personalities, clearing a zone just flying a guildtag... but it was not in any way a successful model for encouraging widespread PvP.

To OP: Can we just play EQ? I'll pass on some sanitized version with WoW soulbinding that pretty much changes everything we would expect logging into something called "Project1999". Want a weird custom ruleset? Talk to the LoZ/VZTZ guy and start another 14 player server.

[Aenor]

To OP: Can we just play EQ? I'll pass on some sanitized version with WoW soulbinding that pretty much changes everything we would expect logging into something called "Project1999". Want a weird custom ruleset? Talk to the LoZ/VZTZ guy and start another 14 player server.

I would direct this cryfest toward Nilbog, were I you, since he's the one who has decided to do something completely new and not tread on well-worn paths.

its a recipie for an empty server unless you make the server very unclassic, like special loot system, nothing like they had it on live.

Unclassic is the risk Nilbog has apparently decided to take.

You're going the absolute WRONG WAY. You don't want to make everything boe/no drop, you want to make everything droppable.

That throws the advantage right back to casters who can PvP effectively without risking ANY gear.

[Tikku82]

Need a system that encourages grp vs grp pvp. Zerg and 1v1 pvp is rather boring and dull in long term.

[Aenor]

Need a system that encourages grp vs grp pvp. Zerg and 1v1 pvp is rather boring and dull in long term.

Well, you tell me which system would encourage more PvP:

1. A system where all items are droppable and the dominant guild or guilds on the server sit in fear and hate to farm droppable planar gear to then trade to less fortunate souls who then have that gear ganked from them by naked casters who risk nothing.

2. A system where all of your major gear slots are bind on equip so even if you are in Wal Mart gear, you can still go PvP against planar-geared players without risk of losing anything you have equipped (except maybe jewelry, as was suggested).

[Pudge]

Thoughts on only being able to loot trade skill craftable jewelry regardless of if it is bagged? (Earrings + rings + necklaces)

Just proposing outside the normal all or nothing approach (not sure if it was mentioned in other threads, not reading them all this week.)

meh.. to me, jewelry = wis gear + resists, and some enchanter charisma, and 55 hp rings. maybe some dex for rogues. -- are you including masks and bracers in this as jewelry?

i guess we gotta remember that this is Teams, so it will be harder to gank ppl who are staying safe and remain on their own territory to level with their wis gear not banked, but still feel the hardest hit is on these wis casters. For me, I'd probably roll without any jewelcrafted resists (diamonds/jacinths) unless I was raiding with my guild, and if there was gonna be pvp.. maybe not even. Probably only put on my resist gear if I was going to go out with a gank squad for a hit and run on the enemy territory. And I was a caster (or stayed near a zoneline).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Going to say it again here again, I think the best item loot is stackables + charged clickies.

Stackable items include, for example: food/drink, silks, skins, bone chips, malachites, gems, arrows, bait, throwing weapons/boulders, runes/words/pages, many other craftwork items, etc. Almost all of these are no big deal to lose. (Only thing i can think of ppl might be truly sad about are diamonds). When you kill someone, he's almost guaranteed to be carrying one of these things.

Charged clickies: shaman potions, vendor potions, pumice, gate pots, etc. ***conflag wands, snare/root clickies, etc. - even though these are PvE only right now, maybe that will change? i thought the nerf on all the clickies was a bit extreme, only trak tooth was really OP. even hoops weren't that bad because they are so rare.). Items with 0 charges left should no longer be lootable - lets you wear an Ivandyr's hoop, that shield with 10 charges of rune on it, etc.

The idea with both the stackable items, and the clickies, is that these are basically expendable items that you would use up anyway - and if you're a baller and always run with full 10-charge shaman potions, then you can afford to lose em. Or if you're a poor ranger and have nothing else of value to loot, then your water or pumice stone might be missing.

The point is, no one is losing any precious pixels, but it will still be worth your while to peruse their corpse and check for useful items. And every once in awhile you might land a big catch on a high roller, gank a bug group in seb or maybe an afk jewelcrafter inside his Team's stronghold.

[krazyGlue]

Naw no thanks I played rallos for years . All or nothing is my idea wtf would I wana loot a stack of food for . That's a waste . I like sirkens idea 1 random item except for primary secondary and range slot . Rest slots even what's in your bags 1 item randomly selected by some sort of generator would be fine .
Even no drop gear should be selected

[Agatha]

Naw no thanks I played rallos for years . All or nothing is my idea wtf would I wana loot a stack of food for . That's a waste . I like sirkens idea 1 random item except for primary secondary and range slot . Rest slots even what's in your bags 1 item randomly selected by some sort of generator would be fine .
Even no drop gear should be selected

^part of the cabal. see this thread for more information

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=128247

Edit: for you to understand, sickpuppy has 10 hiero cloaks, 10 fungis, and 10 lvl 60s, among other things. bank accnt in the millions of plat. rivals that of nizzars guild bank.

Don't trust these evil agent provocateurs

[Smedy]

pretty sure sickpuppy would get griefed off hard after he goes afk with cof equipped and i yoink it

[filthyphil]

+1 for Aenor's thought

[Tikku82]

Item loot kills the server without a PERFECT plan how to do it.

Id suggest that pvp kills/assists give tokens. Lets say with like 100 tokens you can loot 1 item of your choice(no-drop included) off pvp. Thats how people would pvp more and the threat that its YOU losing the item would be alot lower. Thus makin people not as afraid to pvp

[Aenor]

Rest slots even what's in your bags 1 item randomly selected by some sort of generator would be fine .
Even no drop gear should be selected

This doesn't work because you'll have a random number of players who have just terrible luck and they will keep getting key items randomed and be griefed off the server by it.

[Rellapse35]

ITEM LOOT
ITEM LOOT
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ITEM LOOT
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ITEM LOOT
ITEM LOOT

[Nizzarr]

Lets get real here. Item loot is great.

[Modus]

People need to consider that the #1 guild is going to be winning the majority of their PVP due to a numbers and gear advantage. Having resist gear lootable means that for every diamond ring taken from the #1, they're taking 5 more from the casuals who took a month to acquire that ring.

The solution is to make resist gear the unlootable items. Make all dragon loots and uber gear (fungi, manastone, VP gear included), even no-drops, lootable by classes that can use them. One container is safe, so you can carry a few of your most precious items safe.

If you want to use your Frozen Zweihander in PVP, you accept the risk of losing it should a Pal/SK/War/Rng get the killshot.

This protects the casual player's resist gear, so he can compete with the 200+ wizards and druid gankers guaranteed to infest T99, but allows those high dollar VP and Kunark loots to disperse throughout the community. Yes, even VP weapons should be lootable. Better have a backup weapon in the bank, or in your safe container.

[Something'Witty]

The first question we have to ask is why does Nilbog want item loot on Teams99. I suspect it's because A. Item loot is Classic.

Unclassic is the risk Nilbog has apparently decided to take.

So Nilbog likes item loot because it is classic, but wants to implement it in an unclassic way.
http://img.pandawhale.com/60102-That-doesnt-make-any-sense-gif-MoqS.gif

[Millburn]

Least amount of work with the largest reward (reward being a mechanic that promotes community, economy, and pvp) is the hybrid darktide system.

1) Decide on the number of items a person drops on death
2) Have database pull vendor sell value of each item on corpse
3) Only show x amount of items to be looted based on highest vendor sell value

Not only does this allow people to avoid losing their items, but it allows for a stable economy as well. You have people that will still lose items, but the lack of items being looted doesn't gyp the person who got a kill because they're still receiving a valuable item worth money (in vendor sell value).

People will screw up and not calculate their shit right, it'll also help keep a cap on power creep because as you get better gear you lose more money when you get killed. It has in a way a stabilizing feature.

So let's recap

Doesn't dissuade pvp
Promotes economy
Rounds down power creep
Rewards intelligence.

[Lowlife]

pras the millburn/darktide system

[Millburn]

pity bump because this thread has the best ideas in it.

[Kastro]

There's a lot of panic out there from posters who shouldn't even care. If you play the game to avoid pvp and amass pixel wealth, there are already two servers custom designed for your needs and wants, Red99 and Blue99. Teams99 is not for you. Stop posting. We don't care what you think about Teams99 if you are scared of item loot.

Now, Sirken has stated that the staff intends a different implementation of item loot than what has been tried in the past. Any discussion of Teams99 should include thoughts on item loot that haven't been tried before. Please don't shit up my thread by crying about past implementations of item loot that didn't work, and therefore have no relevance to the current conversation. Go find a support group.

The first question we have to ask is why does Nilbog want item loot on Teams99. I suspect it's because A. Item loot is Classic. I also suspect it's because B. Nilbog appreciates the social experiment that item loot represents. As someone pointed out in another thread, when item loot exists, people are more careful about who they group and guild with. As soon as item loot was removed from Vallon Zek, it changed from a PvP server to LootWhoreQuest, and remained that way until it faded away.

Project 1999 already has two servers that support LootWhoreQuest, the aforementioned Red99 and Blue99. Teams99 should be about something different. Therefore, here is what I suggest:

TLDR:

All items should be bind on equip. As soon as you equip an item, it is flagged as no drop and can no longer be traded or looted. RMT solved. You can farm manastones, but as soon as you equip it, you can't trade it. And if someone kills you before you can equip it, they can loot it. This makes the game about developing your character, as it should be, rather than about who can amass the biggest pixel hoard. If you're farming something you can't equip, others are free to PK you and take it off your corpse (all inventory should be lootable except equipped items and no drop items in your inventory)

I got to say this is a bit different than my ideas... but it does solve alot of problems... If you use the item you can never trade it.. so it is no drop... but if you want to sell or trade an item... or give it to your twink it is lootable... This is actually a VERY GOOD IDEA... also make all loot except epics tradable... so Planar Armor and SKyshrine armor is tradable... so casual players and those in small guilds can still win... would make for a very thriving economy... like FV...

[Millburn]

Oh I guess by ideas I actually just meant my idea.

Y'all keep suggesting shit that requires a lot of work to implement. Keep it simple, go Darktide.

[Kastro]

that sig has to be the most disturbing and disgusting thing i've seen on these boards... and there has been alot of sick and disgusting things...

[Millburn]

Chicken in a can is delicious, don't hate.

[Aenor]

Lets get real here. Item loot is great.

[Aenor]

So Nilbog likes item loot because it is classic, but wants to implement it in an unclassic way.

Correct. Item loot is classic, but the classic implementation was not optimal. If you're arguing that they should just stick to a completely classic ruleset, I agree. Bring on classic race war with classic item loot.

[Rheon]

I mentioned this in another thread but, as a player who played solely on a PvP server (Rallos Zek) since the release of Everquest Live, i think to keep it as close to the classic PvP rule-set after release they should implement it how it was after the first and final change which was:

Weapons NOT lootable UNLESS a player was disarmed and the weapon fell into an open inventory slot. (Most players ran 5 bags with 1 slot free for a pumice) which prevented your main-hand weapon from being disarmed and looted.

All tradable items lootable + any coin the player was carrying at the time of death, this allowed a player to loot only 1 item + coin off a player upon death.

How did this affect the dynamics of the game? well we mostly ran 2 armor sets. 1 was a mix of resist items + stat armor or if you were stingy you just ran around in only No Drop armor/jewelery sets obtained from yes you guessed it..RAIDING.

For Pure Raiding which became more sophisticated after the release of Velious, players would use a raiding set with stats based upon maxing survival/DPS depending on class needs to survive an encounter. (Your basic blueby raiding stuff)

How did this affect the server dynamics? it actually had a positive effect on things. Guilds aligned to create raiding groups to obtain the items they needed to be more effective at A) PvP and B) More effective at Raiding.

This caused its own set of drama's as many guilds wanted as slice of the raiding action so Guilds often came to an agreement on raid boss cycles or they simply fought for them until an agreement was reached. Yes it was bloody at times but by god it was fun! some of the best memorys i have of the game were of some of the Guild wars we had and there were plenty..im sure there are other players here on red99 that played on the same server as i did and would remember how it was. ;)

[Kastro]

biggest thing is make most loot droppable, so the top guild doesnt have an advantage being full no drop because they raid more... make it worthwhile for smaller guilds to contest the bigger ones even by picking off stragelers for possible loot drops...

[nilbog]

So Nilbog likes item loot because it is classic, but wants to implement it in an unclassic way.


I said I liked item loot, and that it should be experimented with in some way. I mentioned various different styles to demonstrate what is possible.

[Runya]

Here's an ez fix make all lootable but weapons but tweak the drop rate just a lil~ thanks

[Runya]

Plus most big dogs will be running around in fear/hate gear,dont be a little dog and no one will take your oracle robe.You'd be suprised how valuable planes gear is on an item loot server....it would definately promote "team" work which would stop the cliques of lootwhores and probably force teams to work together.+1 itemloot

[Kastro]

Plus most big dogs will be running around in fear/hate gear,dont be a little dog and no one will take your oracle robe.You'd be suprised how valuable planes gear is on an item loot server....it would definately promote "team" work which would stop the cliques of lootwhores and probably force teams to work together.+1 itemloot
do it like on vztz 1.0 make planar droppable and lootable... even more incentive to contrst raid content and support your team while hearing up... in that scenario if teams are lopsided people will even join the smaller team for more targets so they can gear up faster.....

[Retti_]

perma death, but literally 1 mob per level of exp gains

full item loot

insta spawn

counter terrorist vs terrorist

[Runya]

Never played that 1.0 shit,but that maybe to harsh for too many if you strip someone down like that.Leaving a lil no drop to work with i think would give people a reason to team up i guess in the event of extreme lopsided teams.

[Kastro]

perma death, but literally 1 mob per level of exp gains

full item loot

insta spawn

counter terrorist vs terrorist

would be a fun way to Beta test the teams... i think a ton would play a team server likecthat for bragging rights.... perma only if you die while engaged in pvp... so if. player trains but doesnt engage you he doesnt get anything... make it teams to test stuff... for science and stuff...

[Runya]

perma death, but literally 1 mob per level of exp gains

full item loot

insta spawn

counter terrorist vs terrorist

lol

[Kastro]

Never played that 1.0 shit,but that maybe to harsh for too many if you strip someone down like that.Leaving a lil no drop to work with i think would give people a reason to team up i guess in the event of extreme lopsided teams.

it wasnt that harsh.. pop literally blew up under that rule set... ask Knuckle.. Rexx, Kaahbal, Smedy, Searyx, Tranch, Boozer, Kringe.., tons of others played then... there was still no drop.. like Guise, Shin greaves, basalt carapace... ect... so you could still play... it just paid to wear gear if you had a shot at winning... when it was hopeless we even used summoned mage armor for lols... but we kept fucking going... i remember some epic fights vs the TZT Horde...

[Kastro]

Never played that 1.0 shit,but that maybe to harsh for too many if you strip someone down like that.Leaving a lil no drop to work with i think would give people a reason to team up i guess in the event of extreme lopsided teams.

it wasnt that harsh.. pop literally blew up under that rule set... ask Knuckle.. Rexx, Kaahbal, Smedy, Searyx, Tranch, Boozer, Kringe.., tons of others played then... there was still no drop.. like Guise, Shin greaves, basalt carapace... ect... so you could still play... it just paid to wear gear if you had a shot at winning... when it was hopeless we even used summoned mage armor for lols... but we kept fucking going... i remember some epic fights vs the TZT Horde...

[Something'Witty]

I said I liked item loot, and that it should be experimented with in some way. I mentioned various different styles to demonstrate what is possible.

Not taking a swipe at you Nilbog, just questioning Aenor's ability to read your mind.

[Tune]

FOR SCIENCE!!!!

[Nune]

Quit with all this massively over thought theoryquest.


Everything lootable except for Main Hand, Off Hand, Range. Give first bag slot immunity so at best you can bag up 10 items while getting your shit packed in. There. Bewm. Both sides happy..

Burn em down quick, cant bag the good stuffs, loot a pixel of pras level.
Gonna /wrist if you lose your precious 55hp ring? Bag it.

This is gonna force people to either fight back, or worry solely about their "good items" and focus on bagging them; likely meaning they'll just die. And we all know making pals die for loving their pixels is our favorite thing to do.

[Agatha]

you know the majority of the players like myself, like what your playerbase consists of, really arn't going to cope with item loot. in any form really.

lets not beta server this shit like we did with red99. learn from red99 and keep it as close as possible to red99 + teams. boom problem solved. dont go expirementing on a SECOND server.

[Nirgon]

Melees will lose to casters as soon as they get banded mail and will quit playing. It's happened on every other pvp item loot server in EQ's existence.

http://s22.postimage.org/vmqok2y8x/Vamprea_N32.jpg

Look at this melee that quit in banded because of an epic mage.

Punch yourself in the face, twats. Then go play WoW.

[Colgate]

I said I liked item loot, and that it should be experimented with in some way. I mentioned various different styles to demonstrate what is possible.

everything lootable but primary/secondary/range/bags

make searching bags possible

[Colgate]

you know the majority of the players like myself, like what your playerbase consists of, really arn't going to cope with item loot. in any form really.

if you people can cope with the bullshit that red99 has thrown at you, guarantee you can cope with item loot

[Agatha]

if you people can cope with the bullshit that red99 has thrown at you, guarantee you can cope with item loot

going to quit soon as u link my t-crown in ooc, promise.

[Nirgon]

I said I liked item loot, and that it should be ruined in some way.

http://i.imgur.com/aIkInhB.jpg

Problem with all of the above

[Joseppi]

item loot good

[Smedy]

http://s22.postimage.org/vmqok2y8x/Vamprea_N32.jpg

Look at this melee that quit in banded because of an epic mage.

Punch yourself in the face, twats. Then go play WoW.

not sure if i approve of 7 backpacks on item loot pvp server, i'd say rogue terrible and mage was afk

[Nirgon]

Mage ooc'd something, use your fucking eyes son.

[Lowlife]

Mage ooc'd something, use your fucking eyes son.

as he returns to his keyboard with a cup of coffee at 6% hp, spilling hot java all over her legs as he frantically tries to access the keyboard his cat just walked onto.

[Nirgon]

You see the "target is too far away get closer" after the initial melee waves, and likely more preceding it? That implies a chase, where the mage did not escape. You farm as a caster in a dungeon for a while and a skilled/geared rogue with a fresh click of jboots comes at your no drop ass in a dungeon, you might not make it to the zone line, ya feels me?

Why is this rogue not playing naked? Try to figure that one out.

Maybe someone like Kringe or Zyrino can tell you. Gabuk was over in the blue forums too, he's a good pal to ask.

I get it. A lot of you guys want another VZTZ with yellow text, 2 boxing, tons of XP, legal training/MQ... I just hope its not what Nilbog wants.

[Swish]

Inspired by thread title...

http://i.minus.com/jpOGGbdBA0o8S.jpg

[Mono-Tone]

People are pretty stupid to want item loot.. Honestly this server will have less pop than red in about a month guaranteed!

[HippoNipple]

People are pretty stupid to want item loot.. Honestly this server will have less pop than red in about a month guaranteed!

People want something new and fresh. If you don't like item loot just stay on red99. You can level up quick here. I don't see the complaint with having a new server with different rules.

[Nirgon]

You guys are here because you don't like games like WoW, and believe thing should be like EQ again.

Then you want all the things WoW has.

Maps that always show you where you are, instant travel, instanced pvp with no consequence etc.

Sad, really.

How did all the people who played on Rallos Zek enjoy their experience for 3 or more expansions, until of course, PvP was KILLED by horrible resist scaling with PoP gear, and the later augs etc?

If you want a hard coded faction game with no fear of losing items, or thrill of gaining them by killing other players, there is a game for you and tons of its clones.

[HippoNipple]

Maps that always show you where you are, instant travel, instanced pvp with no consequence etc.



No one wants this.

[HippoNipple]

Less exaggeration and more helpful tips from our classic database known as Nirgon.

[Nirgon]

No one wants this.

People want to charm Sirran in Plane of Sky, they want you to believe that all invis pulling is completely classic, they cried when the hovering compass bar was removed, they want you to think the current low hp kiting is classic, they write 3rd party addons right now to show raid dps etc.

I recently had the pleasure of grouping with Loraen of the A-Team (blue I know) who said he recalled having some arguments with me in the bugs section. I asked him about how invis pulling etc is now and if he, as a skilled player, finds himself enjoying the game more. He said he did, and trust me, at the time we were arguing he hated my guts.

The point is, the game is more enjoyable when risk and reward and skill are a factor. Killing a dragon stuck in a wall and vigorously masturbating to the pixels it drops is pointless... and sick.

[Kergan]

Hey this is Iien/Gabuk from RZ (new forum name). I'm on red now, up to level 49 almost!

Seeing a Rienne screenshot gives me the warm fuzzies. Also Smedy's post about "bad rogue" made me laugh, Rienne would fucking destroy you. Not that you would know that from a screenshot but that guy was fucking LETHAL. Along with Oddjob he was the best PVPer I ever had the pleasure of slaughtering people with. Some of you may know him as Draganov in ToW from SZ.

And the reason he is wearing gear is the same reason I wore my gear all the time on an item loot server - I never expected to lose. Having gear compared to a lot of naked people helped but I felt I was pretty good at the PVP, especially on my enchanter.

[Nirgon]

You'll also care more about making sworn enemies who will drop whatever it is, no matter what they are doing, to come after you in an item loot scenario too, trust me on that.

When red opened, the River Vale / Freeport area was a total shit show. Not that I dislike that kind of thing, but you have to realize, there was no fear in attacking anyone or making an enemy. Here, you will care a lot more about pissing everyone off when the lynch mob comes for your notorious ass.

I PvPed wiz/enc in the early days with Kerrygetz and let me tell you, there was no fucking around to be hard for us in highkeep when the alarms were sounded. We had to pick our fights because of our reputation.

There's more factors in play than "lose a cloak of flames and quit" with item loot.

[HippoNipple]

You'll also care more about making sworn enemies who will drop whatever it is, no matter what they are doing, to come after you in an item loot scenario too, trust me on that.

When red opened, the River Vale / Freeport area was a total shit show. Not that I dislike that kind of thing, but you have to realize, there was no fear in attacking anyone or making an enemy. Here, you will care a lot more about pissing everyone off when the lynch mob comes for your notorious ass.

I PvPed wiz/enc in the early days with Kerrygetz and let me tell you, there was no fucking around to be hard for us in highkeep when the alarms were sounded. We had to pick our fights because of our reputation.

There's more factors in play than "lose a cloak of flames and quit" with item loot.

It changes the entire community and really keeps the bad apples accountable for their actions. You can only be a serious PK if you are really good and play careful at all times when you are logged in. I agree with everything you said here.

As far as everyone wanting things easy mode, I haven't really seen much debate about it either way on Red. I'm sure Blue has their opinions on things like the compass but PvP alone seems to overshadow any debate on Red.

[HippoNipple]

With that said some of these suggestions on item loot make me sick. Durability, random loot, making everything no drop or bind on equip, terrible... just terrible.

There are a lot of people that will join teams99 because they are just bored to death of red99. It isn't just becasue of Nihilum, it has been around too long with nothing new. Servers get old. If teams opens up and is too close to red99 it will be a shame. There is a lot of hard work from devs going into this and the new server has to have its own identity. Any unclassic mechanics thrown in to water down the looting system would be a shame.

The two big differences for this server are going to be teams and item loot. It is very important both of these are done right and now watered down.

[Vexenu]

Again we have old RZ people not understanding the different dynamic between FFA and Teams.

Item loot adds a lot more to an FFA server than it does to Teams. There is no reputation to worry about on a Teams server. There is no one with a "PK rep" who has a lot of sworn enemies from killing people. On Teams, everyone who isn't on your team is automatically your sworn enemy and will attack you on sight. The only rep that matters on a Teams server who is is dangerous/skilled and who is not.

Teams server will thrive or fail based on two factors alone: 1) Server population and 2) Team balance.

Item loot does nothing to help either of these things, and a lot to hurt both. Item loot means fewer players will try the server, and a higher number of those that do will be rage quitting when they lose items. Item loot also means the winning team will continue to get progressively stronger while the loser gets weaker.

I have yet to see a compelling argument for item loot that was not transparently an effort by the poster to relive their nostalgia for RZ and various item loot emus, all of which had abysmally low pops.

[Retti_]

as he returns to his keyboard with a cup of coffee at 6% hp, spilling hot java all over her legs as he frantically tries to access the keyboard his cat just walked onto.

http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/here+take+this+feel+free+to+remove+the+watermark+_ de9d5d4d6dc8e1748c8ce6289a767a1c.jpg

[HippoNipple]

Again we have old RZ people not understanding the different dynamic between FFA and Teams.

Item loot adds a lot more to an FFA server than it does to Teams. There is no reputation to worry about on a Teams server. There is no one with a "PK rep" who has a lot of sworn enemies from killing people. On Teams, everyone who isn't on your team is automatically your sworn enemy and will attack you on sight. The only rep that matters on a Teams server who is is dangerous/skilled and who is not.

Teams server will thrive or fail based on two factors alone: 1) Server population and 2) Team balance.

Item loot does nothing to help either of these things, and a lot to hurt both. Item loot means fewer players will try the server, and a higher number of those that do will be rage quitting when they lose items. Item loot also means the winning team will continue to get progressively stronger while the loser gets weaker.

I have yet to see a compelling argument for item loot that was not transparently an effort by the poster to relive their nostalgia for RZ and various item loot emus, all of which had abysmally low pops.

red99 has had the misfortune of having two pretty bad pvp rule systems. One hurt the player that died and didn't reward the victor. The current one does nothing. The only reason to PvP on the current server is to contest raids but that has been avoided by one zerg controlling PvE uncontested.

The fun in pvp from 1-51 with this system has been limited and cheapened. The community has ruined pvp from 52-60 on their own but it is hard to say any community with this population wouldn't be similar. It is natural instinct to do what you can to further your character, and not devote your time as a martyr.

Teams and item loot is an attempt to fix both of those problems. We have tried to allow the community to make the current system fun and it has failed for a lot of us. I'm ready for some server rules that don't leave it up to the community - loot and teams.

[Vexenu]

There is an inherent need to PvP with a Teams ruleset, something that isn't true with FFA rules. This is why item loot makes more sense with FFA - it gives you a reason to kill players.

No item loot + FFA = Killing people for no benefit, simply to kill them. Degenerates to pure griefing over time, especially for sub-50 PvP.

Item loot + FFA = Killing people for potential gain, with a risk/reward dynamic. Creates a culture of brigands/PKs and anti-PKs. A fun ruleset given a large enough population to sustain it.

No item loot + Teams = Killing your enemies on sight, otherwise they will kill you. Fighting for survival and zone control.

Item loot + Teams = Same as above, except the winning team gets stronger over time and the loser gets weaker. Encourages imbalance.

Item loot simply adds nothing desirable to the Teams ruleset. It's an FFA PvP rule that doesn't belong on a Teams server. Further, there doesn't currently exist a large enough demand for an item loot server to sustain a reasonably high population on one. This isn't 1999-2000 where we have half a million EQ players to draw from for RZ, enabling it to sustain itself. We've got a few thousand players at best, the vast majority of whom aren't inclined to PvP at all, much less item loot.

In the end the argument is as simple as it is irrefutable: Teams needs population more than anything else. Item loot significantly reduces population. Therefore, item loot is a bad idea for Teams.

[Lowlife]

polling of blue players seemed to indicate there was a greater willingness to try a red server that maintained an item loot rule set than one without. now, that doesn't mean that item loot would also cause a greater and quicker atrophy of the player base, as people rage their way into attrition.

one positive from item loot is that 3 years after velious drops you'll still have something to "do". as in, taking a phase spider carapace from someone.

[Rheon]

Put Item loot on red99 end of discussion! it will be RZ all over again..:D Personally not a fan of the Teams server play style..i'd prefer Red with Itemloot over a Teams server 100%.

P.s I remember Rienne and most of the other Facultas Utrimque players pretty vividly, they were some of the most fearsome PvPers around at that time, many battles fought against them. Not all of the best PvPers were casters that's for sure.

[Kergan]

Put Item loot on red99 end of discussion! it will be RZ all over again..:D Personally not a fan of the Teams server play style..i'd prefer Red with Itemloot over a Teams server 100%.

P.s I remember Rienne and most of the other Facultas Utrimque players pretty vividly, they were some of the most fearsome PvPers around at that time, many battles fought against them. Not all of the best PvPers were casters that's for sure.

FU was definitely a small elitist guild. I never joined them, choosing to stay in tB until I left for Sullon Zek, but I had a lot of respect for guys like Lugoj, Rienne, Nilear, etc.

I don't think the ruletset will have much if any effect on the server now. The 52+ game is pretty much a choice between Nihilum and doing nothing, although Red Dawn has started to do some raiding. The moment of truth is coming for them though, as the people excited about raiding Fear/Hate now will quickly lust for greater loots. Either they stay and help push Red Dawn into higher end raiding or they'll bail for Nihilum. The low population of R99 makes it very difficult to have two power guilds, and I think until we see a sustained 250-300 people things wont change much.

[HippoNipple]

Put Item loot on red99 end of discussion! it will be RZ all over again..:D Personally not a fan of the Teams server play style..i'd prefer Red with Itemloot over a Teams server 100%.

P.s I remember Rienne and most of the other Facultas Utrimque players pretty vividly, they were some of the most fearsome PvPers around at that time, many battles fought against them. Not all of the best PvPers were casters that's for sure.

Already stated that they won't put in item loot on red99 right now, for obvious reasons.

[Kastro]

There is an inherent need to PvP with a Teams ruleset, something that isn't true with FFA rules. This is why item loot makes more sense with FFA - it gives you a reason to kill players.

No item loot + FFA = Killing people for no benefit, simply to kill them. Degenerates to pure griefing over time, especially for sub-50 PvP.

Item loot + FFA = Killing people for potential gain, with a risk/reward dynamic. Creates a culture of brigands/PKs and anti-PKs. A fun ruleset given a large enough population to sustain it.

No item loot + Teams = Killing your enemies on sight, otherwise they will kill you. Fighting for survival and zone control.

Item loot + Teams = Same as above, except the winning team gets stronger over time and the loser gets weaker. Encourages imbalance.

Item loot simply adds nothing desirable to the Teams ruleset. It's an FFA PvP rule that doesn't belong on a Teams server. Further, there doesn't currently exist a large enough demand for an item loot server to sustain a reasonably high population on one. This isn't 1999-2000 where we have half a million EQ players to draw from for RZ, enabling it to sustain itself. We've got a few thousand players at best, the vast majority of whom aren't inclined to PvP at all, much less item loot.

In the end the argument is as simple as it is irrefutable: Teams needs population more than anything else. Item loot significantly reduces population. Therefore, item loot is a bad idea for Teams.

That is where I believe you may be misinformed....

X Teaming Did not start on Tallon Zek or Vallon Zek until AFTER item loot was removed...

On VZTZ Heresy did not form a guild with the top TZT group untill AFTER Item loot was removed... On VZTZ most planar was tradable... so it was NOT a race to no drop...

Bring in Firona Vie Rules for loot + Item loot will defeat the Zerg Syndrome, and the X team syndrome... because it will make it impossible to keep those alliances together... If HPT, or Xantille could Gank another Nihlium Members let say... Fungi Tunic... And that member had just pissed them off... They probably would... and the working together bit would end...

[nilbog]

Has this been mentioned? If not, discuss.

-4 level range
-Item loot of any droppable
-Bagged items included
-Primary/Secondary excluded
-Inventory slots (primary 8) excluded.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ppj66v.jpg

So:
-Can loot droppables from bags, but can't take the bag itself.
-Can't take items occupying a bag slot. Max chance of "bagging" 8 items, if all inventory slots are empty.

[Bazia]

honestly with that many exclusions why bother with it at all

[nilbog]

That many ?

[dogbarf]

Thats why this server needs a FFA team to go with the item loot.


Red99 got a shit ruleset thanks to the same people crying about item loot right now. The super vocal crybabies that do nothing but post on the forums and think eq pvp is based on skill and that pointless pvp for the sake of pvp is good for the community.

[Silikten]

Has this been mentioned? If not, discuss.

-4 level range
-Item loot of any droppable
-Bagged items included
-Primary/Secondary excluded
-Inventory slots (primary 8) excluded.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ppj66v.jpg

So:
-Can loot droppables from bags, but can't take the bag itself.
-Can't take items occupying a bag slot. Max chance of "bagging" 8 items, if all inventory slots are empty.


+1. I like it.

[Lowlife]

why put anything except lube and food/water in those bags then?

you're just limiting carrying capacity and making this system a bigger inconvenience than any other one ive seen thus far.

[nilbog]

Worn items + bagged items.

[Lowlife]

Worn items + bagged items.

eh, i still think random is superior. this sounds like a bigger PITA than standard rallos bagging and encouraging people to play naked.

[nilbog]

I think random is cool too. But if you can fill up slots with random items, how do you make it fair for someone who doesn't do that?

[Elderan]

I think random is cool too. But if you can fill up slots with random items, how do you make it fair for someone who doesn't do that?

I would have 7 bags with 1 bone chip each in it.

Meaning 70 bone chips would come into play into the randomness...

[Lowlife]

I think random is cool too. But if you can fill up slots with random items, how do you make it fair for someone who doesn't do that?

You make worn items a high drop % value than bagged items.

[Colgate]

Has this been mentioned? If not, discuss.

-4 level range
-Item loot of any droppable
-Bagged items included
-Primary/Secondary excluded
-Inventory slots (primary 8) excluded.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ppj66v.jpg

So:
-Can loot droppables from bags, but can't take the bag itself.
-Can't take items occupying a bag slot. Max chance of "bagging" 8 items, if all inventory slots are empty.

yes, this is exactly it

do it

[heartbrand]

4 level range is what it should be on red99 with no ffa zones

[Elderan]

4 level range is what it should be on red99 with no ffa zones

Except Fear/Hate/Sky..

That is unless they could get the flagging system working.

[nilbog]

You make worn items a high drop % value than bagged items.

Trying to find a caveat that would make randomness work.

It doesn't resolve...

how do you make it fair for someone who doesn't do that?

Say I want to bag 8 items. I have 8 10-slot bags. By adding fish scales to every slot other than the items I bag, my % chance of losing items is less than someone who doesn't.

[Lowlife]

I think random is cool too. But if you can fill up slots with random items, how do you make it fair for someone who doesn't do that?

that is likewise similar to saying how do you make it fair to someone that doesn't start unequipping items when low hp and stuffing them into safe slots.

[Hughman]

Trying to find a caveat that would make randomness work.

It doesn't resolve...



Say I want to bag 8 items. I have 8 10-slot bags. By adding fish scales to every slot other than the items I bag, my % chance of losing items is less than someone who doesn't.
You could make it so items under a certain plat value aren't factored in, or maybe no stackable items.

[Lowlife]

So in the little raffle that determines which item gets dropped make equipped gear more favorable to be picked. Like two entries in the little loot pinata rafle instead of 1.

[nilbog]

My problem with it is that people will bag them, making them no longer equipped.

[Lowlife]

the system you suggested revolves around "bagging" into safe slots, however in random even those slots are at risk, if even just less so

Just random across all inventory slots, if it's empty then the body has no gear to loot. That way loading up the bags with fish scales adds no benefit.

[nilbog]

You could make it so items under a certain plat value aren't factored in, or maybe no stackable items.

Unfortunately, there are strange issues with item worth. The original devs weren't concerned with this.

i.e. a fire opal is worth more than a Skull Shaped Barbute.

[Hughman]

Unfortunately, there are strange issues with item worth. The original devs weren't concerned with this.

i.e. a fire opal is worth more than a Skull Shaped Barbute.
I just meant in a sense that a bone chip or a fish scale, etc wouldn't be factored in at all. A fire opal crappy as it may be is still better than either of those.

Another thing you could try would be magic items only.

[Lowlife]

With a randomized system in which (for instance) worn items are 50% more likely to be selected for loot than bagged items, one can still bag that fungi tunic or fbss to increase the odds of keeping it yet there is still a chance it'll get looted. But it isn't like free form item loot where someone it taking your fungi 100% of the time if you didn't bag it. Combine this with item linking in the YT and the removal of all no drop tags.

[nilbog]

Ok, can you explain your reasoning behind bagged items? As someone who played on Rallos since launch in 1999 as a top random PKer, I can't understand why someone would want to disallow people from bagging gear?

The most obvious enormous disadvantage is again for melee. Casters (especially porting casters) can bind at a bank and keep their valuables safe, while a melee class would have to carry their gear on them at all times or leave it in the bank. Then if they decide "hey this is my day I'm bringing out my fbss!" they then need to run around the world with an entourage or face the obvious chance of losing it.

So you're a warrior and have a fantastic fight with someone who begins shadowstepping, bagging all their gear. By the time you kill them, they have nothing to loot.

Trying to consider some of the problems with Rallos Zek. In this era, possibly including macro-ing the bagging process.

[Lowlife]

In your system I'll carry 2 bags in the at-risk slots to carry food, water, etc and leave the rest of the slots empty for bagging that is actually easier than bagging. The end result is a mild inconvenience of less inventory space (bluebies will hate that btw) and I can only secure like 6 main items. I.E. my MR ears, wrists, and rings or whatever. I'm still bagging shit. it still rewards being a nude caster. And it makes general gameplay a pain in the ass via loss of bag space.

[nilbog]

including macro-ing the bagging process.

This is my biggest problem with it. Normal players being at a disadvantage on top of not knowing how to pvp as well as everyone else.


I'm not trying to promote any one system.. just considering the possibilities and problems of all of them. TBH, I like the original RZ system because it's the one I played with.

[Lowlife]

thats why all inventory slots must be lootable, with equip (or maybe equippable?) items being at a higher risk than bagged items, but bagged items are not excluded from looting. It slightly rewards bagging but it also allows one to play fully equipped with less risk of having your one critical piece of gear (i.e. an FBSS or something) from being taken unless you bag it every time. however this entails randomization.

[Lowlife]

If I were you, I'd be a lot more concerned with ideas/features that push players to join zerg guilds. I don't think there is anything more destructive to an EQ PVP server than that.

That being said, I think allowing people to loot bagged items is pushing people towards zerg mentality. I'll take you back to the melee player example, you simply cannot survive alone on a server as a melee if at any given moment any item you have on you is at risk. What do you do? Well you join the biggest guild you can find that has multiple porters and is able to take over a zone and be a security blanket for you.


Now, if you allow people to bag items, that melee can survive on his own. He isn't beholden to a certain group of players to provide safety. He can keep the items he finds most valuable safely tucked in his bags and use them when he deems the risk/reward of using them to be positive. He can now join a guild of his 5 close friends that might not even have a porting class and explore Norrath. He doesn't have to worry about what happens when someone comes to PVP and the rest of his group gates because they don't want to lose their items, etc.

^ kind of a stretch. observe what occurred on a server with zero item loot. no bagging does not = nihilum. bagging does not likewise encourage people to play melees.

full loot capability deters many from playing a melee regardless, and that system deters the crowd we are attempting to court (i.e. non-pvpers, casuals, and the like) whereas randomized loot w/ YT ADDS to enjoyment of an item loot mechanic, while REDUCING rage, required bagging experience/macroing, and reluctance to play a melee.

[Aenor]

-4 level range


I hated the level range when I played briefly on RZ after playing on Vallon Zek for its first two years. I'm sure Sirken will agree, 4 levels is softcore. Vallon/Tallon had more PvP than any other server because there weren't vast areas where you would never see an enemy like Sullon, and the level spread was twice what it was on RZ. I've said elsewhere, please consider making it 6 levels. Experience has shown us 8 levels is to wide a spread and 4 levels is too narrow. Please consider splitting the difference, or at the very least make it 5 levels.

[a_gnoll_pup]

What about instead of having the items filtered by location and price, instead calculate the 'worth' of items based on stats:

AC + str + sta + int + wis + dex + agi + cha + (hp / 2) + (mana / 2) = pvp raw ranking

+= 10 for proc effects.

Top 20 items by worth get displayed.

NO-DROP items can be looted. Exclusions to specific items such as all primary/secondary weapons, potentially epic pieces?

[Colgate]

i would rather loot someone's dwarven ringmail tunic than their trak bp(excluding a few classes)

[Lowlife]

I think a stretch is making the argument for item looting inside bags by using an example of a warrior killing a shadow stepping caster... Let me be the first to say, that is not going to happen, unless the caster was sitting down with 1 health.

I'm not sure what the rest of your argument is about - I wasn't even discussing "randomized loot" because it's a horrible idea. I realize you want to push your idea, it's human nature, but it's a bad idea.

the same could be said regarding your posts.

however can you challenge my (actually smedys) claims aside from just saying that they're bad?

The difference in philosophy is I'm trying to figure out a system that would be enjoyable for people outside of those of us that spent our time on Live on RZ, or played other PvP Boxes. Those are people we need to attract, despite item loot as a concept hampering that, to bolster population. Randomized loot is more palatable to bluebies than a system that you or I would personally find more enjoyable. Its a comprehensive solution. Likewise, it adds the YT element that I think everyone would find enjoyable, an element other variants do not include.

[Lowlife]

Because it actually can add more emotion to the item looting experience than full item loot. Its why gambling is more exciting than shopping.

[Kastro]

Randomized loot is a very bad idea...

A. it is complicated

B. it doesnt allow the player to choose what he is willing to lose..

C: Punishes melees and Hybrids way more than casters since they can easily gate and bank everything...

D: removes skill from the equation... I used the Prenerf COS in Combat all the time... Never lost it because it or its bag was always on my cursor when using it...

E: Way more Risk than reward... NO REASON to log on and fight if losing an item is totally out of your control... Under RZ rules it was almost fully under your control on whether you could lose a certain item or not... As long as almost all gear is droppable and no players are running around in full Uber or mostly no drop it works great... Players running around in superior No drop Gear with ZERO risk is what broke Rallos Zek as a PVP server.... Not Item Loot...

F. Its not fun either...


There are 2 workable Item Loot systems I've seen discussed so far:

A

Rallos Zek Style ( bags and inside bags not lootable) with Firona Vie loot rules so almost everything is droppable.. So if things look bad you can bag and have zero risk.. you are just most likely gonna die... Or you wear your gear and risk it...

And with very little no drop you wont have people in Uber no drop gear stomping people that didn't farm a suit of no drop... Also this will allow more casual players and guild to trade for or PVP for good enough gear to compete...

B
The other option is Everything starting Droppable and is Flagged no Drop when Used or Equiped... So you loot planar.. it is droppable.. you can give to another guildy, sell it trade it... You put it on... you have a window pops up that asks you if you are going to bind this to you... If yes it is No NO DROP forever...

In this system Items that you have equiped are NO DROP... Use the Fungi.. NO DROP ... Use the Manastone... NO DROP... did not use the umbral BP in your backpack? It is Lootable... In this system it would be best if no gear is never nerfed/ no longer drops... so all players, including new ones are on an even playing field.. you want a Guise... Camp it... if you cast with it... it binds to you... Potions ect same thing... Un used it is lootable.. used it is droppable... SO no player will lose items they need in PVP.... but there is still Items to be won in PVP....

My preference is sytem A since it will make for a very active economy... system 2 is essentially what EQ2 pvp had and worked pretty well also.. That would be the less punishing version... But in both cases the winner gets to pick the item he wants out of what is available...

[Vexenu]

Look at the amount of mental gymnastics required for coming up with a workable item loot system. The complexity of these ideas is evidence of their shortcomings. If the system is good it will be simple and elegant. No ruleset that relies on such complicated machinations to determine something as simple as the looting of items from a corpse can be viable.

DrScience's suggested removal of no drop items is an example of a workable item loot proposal, (although I strongly disagree with it) due to its simplicity. The old RZ system was also fairly simple itself. All of these other proposals are overcomplicated, arbitrary, and highly un-classic.

If item loot cannot be implemented in a manner that is simple and does not greatly deviate from classic PvP, then it shouldn't be implemented at all.

[Lowlife]

Randomized loot is a very bad idea...

A. it is complicated

B. it doesnt allow the player to choose what he is willing to lose..

C. Its not fun either...


A. No it isn't.

B. How so? If its on you, you can lose it, it just allows for a little more leeway in wearing high dollar gear, rewards bagging but doesn't require it.

C. Depends on if you're getting looted or looting someone, it could be more fun. It makes the highs higher and the lows lower. Think about it. Polling numbers seem to indicate Blues are more receptive to this variant than traditional RZ variants.

[heartbrand]

See sig, Red Dawn recruiting players on a server that actually exists, PST for info

[Kergan]

Has this been mentioned? If not, discuss.

-4 level range
-Item loot of any droppable
-Bagged items included
-Primary/Secondary excluded
-Inventory slots (primary 8) excluded.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2ppj66v.jpg

So:
-Can loot droppables from bags, but can't take the bag itself.
-Can't take items occupying a bag slot. Max chance of "bagging" 8 items, if all inventory slots are empty.

Hmm, interesting concept.

I think it's a given that primary/secondary need to be excluded. A melee losing his best weapon would be like being able to loot ice comet out of a wizards spell book.

I also think a 4 level range is best. Hell, if I had my way it would be a blue server until level 55. The game is so horrible unbalanced up until then (not like its great after I know...) because of the way spell levels and abilities work. Fighting a level 33 shaman before envenomed breath and a pet vs fighting one with it at level 34 is completely different. Not to mention it gets people to the point they are so time invested they aren't going to rage quit over a lost item. But I assume everyone in the PVP community will think that is the worst idea ever so the 4 level range is good.

What about making it so 1 bag slot is protected? Essentially the same as your system above without the PVE impact of not being able to carry around more than a single bag - because that is exactly what it will end up. 1 bag for food/drink/peridots, etc, 7 open slots for saving your items. With slot 1 protected you could have one unlootable bag and the rest lootable.

[Runya]

not sure if i approve of 7 backpacks on item loot pvp server, i'd say rogue terrible and mage was afk

Jeez Vamp i remember that retard lol

[Runya]

FU was definitely a small elitist guild. I never joined them, choosing to stay in tB until I left for Sullon Zek, but I had a lot of respect for guys like Lugoj, Rienne, Nilear, etc.

I don't think the ruletset will have much if any effect on the server now. The 52+ game is pretty much a choice between Nihilum and doing nothing, although Red Dawn has started to do some raiding. The moment of truth is coming for them though, as the people excited about raiding Fear/Hate now will quickly lust for greater loots. Either they stay and help push Red Dawn into higher end raiding or they'll bail for Nihilum. The low population of R99 makes it very difficult to have two power guilds, and I think until we see a sustained 250-300 people things wont change much.

Lugoj/Nilear and such were good players but East Power/Tb had alot of bads also.....Remember Rodmantu? haha that monk made me lol.I had more fun playing with the germans.Orden de w/e

[Tekay]

The idea off taking off your valuable gear and putting it in your bags when you believe your losing a fight just boggles my mind.

Open world PvP with honour/PvP tokens to buy items. This encourages PvP. No drop items only ruins economy.

I love PvP, I think we need more constructive, PvP fostering ideas than these "hardcore, im not a girl item loot" destructive ideas.

Make PvP fun and rewarding. Not a horror show of people pluggin and afraid to group or go out adventuring.

Dont forget about your immersion, poor immersion gets destroyed by item loot. Think about it, if you love PvP, you'd rather die and get back into the frey, oppose to plugging and hugging your pixels and log off for the night.

[Runya]

The idea off taking off your valuable gear and putting it in your bags when you believe your losing a fight just boggles my mind.

Open world PvP with honour/PvP tokens to buy items. This encourages PvP. No drop items only ruins economy.

I love PvP, I think we need more constructive, PvP fostering ideas than these "hardcore, im not a girl item loot" destructive ideas.

Make PvP fun and rewarding. Not a horror show of people pluggin and afraid to group or go out adventuring.

Dont forget about your immersion, poor immersion gets destroyed by item loot. Think about it, if you love PvP, you'd rather die and get back into the frey, oppose to plugging and hugging your pixels and log off for the night.

What it will come down to is 90% of the population will be in fear/hate gear with aviak charms for necks and acumen masks for faces.The other 10% will wear the best gear possible.Thing that happens is things that are droppable like fungis are hardly worn in pvp so that 80k fungi really ends up being worth less than half.I have about 100k screenshots from rallos and most are people who didnt have shit worth taking.It will come down to the geared people steamrolling those naked gimps.Lose that CoF pvp? Just lost one player i guarantee.I suggest making a few pieces that werent originally no drop become no drop but im talking maybe 5-10 loots max.

[Lowlife]

What it will come down to is 90% of the population will be in fear/hate gear with aviak charms for necks and acumen masks for faces.The other 10% will wear the best gear possible.Thing that happens is things that are droppable like fungis are hardly worn in pvp so that 80k fungi really ends up being worth less than half.I have about 100k screenshots from rallos and most are people who didnt have shit worth taking.It will come down to the geared people steamrolling those naked gimps.Lose that CoF pvp? Just lost one player i guarantee.I suggest making a few pieces that werent originally no drop become no drop but im talking maybe 5-10 loots max.

Runya, I'd really appreciate your analysis on the randomized item loot proposal. The more experienced eyes I can get on that, the better.

[Runya]

The idea off taking off your valuable gear and putting it in your bags when you believe your losing a fight just boggles my mind.

Open world PvP with honour/PvP tokens to buy items. This encourages PvP. No drop items only ruins economy.

I love PvP, I think we need more constructive, PvP fostering ideas than these "hardcore, im not a girl item loot" destructive ideas.

Make PvP fun and rewarding. Not a horror show of people pluggin and afraid to group or go out adventuring.

Dont forget about your immersion, poor immersion gets destroyed by item loot. Think about it, if you love PvP, you'd rather die and get back into the frey, oppose to plugging and hugging your pixels and log off for the night.

As far as people bagging...You hear the barking of tashania.Rykker begins to cast a spell......This is where bagging started,you could literally see people start stripping the gear off.Luckily i had a shaman partner(deowulf) we would tash/malo stack and use blind.It became a race to see if you can kill someone before they bagged.As someone who played rz a looooong time you eqemu fags cant handle a RZ ruleset.I suggest you modify what is lootable and what is not.

[HippoNipple]

What it will come down to is 90% of the population will be in fear/hate gear with aviak charms for necks and acumen masks for faces.The other 10% will wear the best gear possible.Thing that happens is things that are droppable like fungis are hardly worn in pvp so that 80k fungi really ends up being worth less than half.I have about 100k screenshots from rallos and most are people who didnt have shit worth taking.It will come down to the geared people steamrolling those naked gimps.Lose that CoF pvp? Just lost one player i guarantee.I suggest making a few pieces that werent originally no drop become no drop but im talking maybe 5-10 loots max.

As the Dr. stated, this leads people to be scared and need the best no drop gear, therefor zerg. It worked better on live where guilds could actually be selective because the population was so healthy but not on this server. Making more items no drop just increases the problem and need to suck up to the leading guild on the server.

[Runya]

-PVP tokens WILL be exploited
-People will still plug to gloryland, with or without item loot.
-Most people will realize that just like in the business world, there is a cost of doing business; in the PVP item loot world, there is a cost of doing business... everyone is going to lose some items.
-My contention is that if you remove no drop tags from almost every item in game, you add a huge number of items into the marketplace and reduce the value of every item in game. People aren't as worried about losing their items when there are cheap alternatives/substitutes that can be bought, traded, or won in another PVP fight.

They would have to tweak the drop-rate a lil bit to be successful.

[Lowlife]

-PVP tokens WILL be exploited
-People will still plug to gloryland, with or without item loot.
-Most people will realize that just like in the business world, there is a cost of doing business; in the PVP item loot world, there is a cost of doing business... everyone is going to lose some items.
-My contention is that if you remove no drop tags from almost every item in game, you add a huge number of items into the marketplace and reduce the value of every item in game. People aren't as worried about losing their items when there are cheap alternatives/substitutes that can be bought, traded, or won in another PVP fight.

1. agreed.
2. full selection item loot encourages more frequent plugging than alternative systems or no item loot, especially under nilbog's limited bagging slot system.
3. therefore people play casters and play naked. people will actually wear fungis under a limited/random loot system.
4. nothing is cheaper than a free no drop you never have to purchase again. having said that i agree with the FV approach in conjunction with the Smedy System of random loot = a better and more vibrant economy.

[Runya]

Is there a way to hook an ide harddrive to a motherboard that only has sata? I would love to upload some screenshots.I have some old as fuck ones......Anyone from rz remember Dark Carnival? Man those were some ballers!

[Tekay]

There wont be any ability to exploit pvp coins if you cannot kil the same person over and over. It's called a dishonourable kill, and you lose tokens for it.

Everyone wants what will benefit them the most. The people that know in one years time they will be able to do twelve hour shifts everyday want all items droppable and item loot. Casul players want the opposite. The big picture is keeping PvP alive and thriving. Item loot will not do this. PvP rewards will.

[HippoNipple]

As far as people bagging...You hear the barking of tashania.Rykker begins to cast a spell......This is where bagging started,you could literally see people start stripping the gear off.Luckily i had a shaman partner(deowulf) we would tash/malo stack and use blind.It became a race to see if you can kill someone before they bagged.As someone who played rz a looooong time you eqemu fags cant handle a RZ ruleset.I suggest you modify what is lootable and what is not.

-key binds to cast while bind
- resist crap in the first place with decent gear
- press forward until blind wears off

Not rocket science, not as many noobs on here as you probably played with on live.

[Vexenu]

Yes, this is what will happen. Everyone will join the easiest path to victory (ie getting full no drops), essentially reducing all risk to them in future pvp fights; while small groups/guilds who do not join or recruit big zergs will be forced to PVP with full droppable gear. The cycle will viciously continue until everyone is apart of {INSERT ZERG GUILD NAME} and the population goes into the toilet bowl.

The odd thing is that you would advocate adding more items to the no drop list, versus removing no drops all together (outside of epics/plane of air haste belts/jboots/etc), which would stop this terrible cycle of 1 guild recruiting everyone in sight to overwhelm the server. After a certain number of players, skill goes out the window and it doesn't matter who you're up against, 20 cannot beat 60, especially if those 60 are now in full no drops.

I really hope a GM has seen my posts on this topic, as it will make the server unplayable after give or take 3 months.

How is everyone going to end up in the same guild on a server with three hardcoded teams? I think your focus on preventing a zerg guild would be justified with an FFA server (as we have seen on Red) but is not really relevant on Teams. Much more important is considering various ways to ensure the teams are as balanced as possible with relatively even population distributions. This would almost ensure the existence of 3 competitive endgame guilds who would be constantly fighting each other.

[HippoNipple]

There wont be any ability to exploit pvp coins if you cannot kil the same person over and over. It's called a dishonourable kill, and you lose tokens for it.

Everyone wants what will benefit them the most. The people that know in one years time they will be able to do twelve hour shifts everyday want all items droppable and item loot. Casul players want the opposite. The big picture is keeping PvP alive and thriving. Item loot will not do this. PvP rewards will.

I'm casual. I was casual back when I played on live. I have always wished a game could go back to a loot system. I think most people that played it are the same.

The most hardcore gamers are always on blue, so bringing this hardcore pvpers crap into the discussion is not the way to push your agenda. Item loot, when done correctly as Dr. Science is pushing for, helps out the casual player fight the zergs and hardcore PvE players.

[Beastro]

You'll also care more about making sworn enemies who will drop whatever it is, no matter what they are doing, to come after you in an item loot scenario too, trust me on that.

When red opened, the River Vale / Freeport area was a total shit show. Not that I dislike that kind of thing, but you have to realize, there was no fear in attacking anyone or making an enemy. Here, you will care a lot more about pissing everyone off when the lynch mob comes for your notorious ass.

I PvPed wiz/enc in the early days with Kerrygetz and let me tell you, there was no fucking around to be hard for us in highkeep when the alarms were sounded. We had to pick our fights because of our reputation.

There's more factors in play than "lose a cloak of flames and quit" with item loot.

This is why I loved playing on RZ even if I was terrible at PvP and avoided it. Having item loot around the the atmosphere it creates is fun to be in, even if you're really into it yourself.

Better to be a bluebie on an RZ server than be on a PvP server full of blubies.

[nilbog]

Better to be a bluebie on an RZ server than be on a PvP server full of blubies.

[HippoNipple]

How is everyone going to end up in the same guild on a server with three hardcoded teams? I think your focus on preventing a zerg guild would be justified with an FFA server (as we have seen on Red) but is not really relevant on Teams. Much more important is considering various ways to ensure the teams are as balanced as possible with relatively even population distributions. This would almost ensure the existence of 3 competitive endgame guilds who would be constantly fighting each other.

People quit their characters right now on red99 to role anon chars to join Nihilum. People do it all the time on games with teams. It happened in WoW, it happened on Star Wars, and on every other game with teams set up in a way that promotes zergs.

[Lowlife]

People quit their characters right now on red99 to role anon chars to join Nihilum. People do it all the time on games with teams. It happened in WoW, it happened on Star Wars, and on every other game with teams set up in a way that promotes zergs.

1 team per IP. if you're so much of a neckbeard that you'll do things to get around that knock yourself out.

[Rallyd]

Rogean would have to personally come to my house and certify that I don't already have an account to stop me from crossteaming.. All of these ideas are awesome because they ensure teams will fail.. Good day.

[Lowlife]

Rogean would have to personally come to my house and certify that I don't already have an account to stop me from crossteaming.. All of these ideas are awesome because they ensure teams will fail.. Good day.

No shit, you're a confirmed neckbeard and faggot. Go nuts.

[heartbrand]

I don't plan on playing teams but I would think it would be pretty easy to identify cross teamers. Perma ban every eqemulator associated with their IPs and suspend their guild. Problem solved.

[Runya]

This is why I loved playing on RZ even if I was terrible at PvP and avoided it. Having item loot around the the atmosphere it creates is fun to be in, even if you're really into it yourself.

Better to be a bluebie on an RZ server than be on a PvP server full of blubies.

Immersion level was high when item loot was a possibility.......Never was able to get immersed in another server/game since....The feeling of leaning over someone's corpse and looting then gating infront of his pals wondering if you were about to get stunned yourself!~priceless.This type of ruleset i can bring in 10+ new players.Should really get a T99 forum section going

[Retti_]

I don't plan on playing teams but I would think it would be pretty easy to identify cross teamers. Perma ban every eqemulator associated with their IPs and suspend their guild. Problem solved.

Sounds a little extreme ...almost WW2 extreme

I will play on all teams tho just sayin

[Vexenu]

People quit their characters right now on red99 to role anon chars to join Nihilum. People do it all the time on games with teams. It happened in WoW, it happened on Star Wars, and on every other game with teams set up in a way that promotes zergs.

People leave Blue for Nihilum to raid uncontested, it has nothing to do with Nihilum being a PvP zerg, and everything to do with Blue's endgame being overcrowded as fuck and Red being dead.

A teams server with three relatively balanced teams would produce at least 3 viable endgame guilds. Why would a Good player re-roll to join an Evil guild if the teams were balanced? Makes no sense. He'd just level up and join the Good uber guild.

Zergs are a product of an FFA ruleset and/or a teams environment where one team is super dominant. Eliminate FFA and do everything you can do promote parity between the teams and no one guild will dominate the server as a zerg.

[Aenor]

Naw naw Nilbog, why you derailing my thread? We don't want naked PvP... we want people's primary gear set to be safe so they won't be afraid to risk PvP.

[runlvlzero]

You guys cant cater to the RP crowd, the RP pvp crowd, and the PvP crowd and the ElvenQuakeCraft crowd all at the same time.

If you try to do the above you will only develop a poor community and cater to the griefers all at the same time. They will take whatever system you develop and turn it against all your players without heavy guide/GM rules enforcement and a player community dedicated to fighting them. This won't happen with a weak and unfocused rules set.

The crowd that will net you the most players is going to be RP heavy (FV style), pvp lite, since theres already 2 blue servers for the pixel queens out.

[Colgate]

Sounds a little extreme ...almost WW2 extreme

I will play on all teams tho just sayin

sounds a little extreme... almost rogean extreme

[Tekay]

Naw naw Nilbog, why you derailing my thread? We don't want naked PvP... we want people's primary gear set to be safe so they won't be afraid to risk PvP.

Lol what? Doesnt sound like item loot

[Lowlife]

What on earth would stop a zerg from existing on Teams99?

[Danger]

http://oi41.tinypic.com/14me2du.jpg

because it takes a zerg to fight a zerg

[Millburn]

As an Italian I support Meatballed.org

[Tekay]

The most hardcore gamers are always on blue, so bringing this hardcore pvpers crap into the discussion is not the way to push your agenda. .

You new or something? PvP players grind the hardest

[Vexenu]

I've listed the reasons above and in other threads, but by removing no drop tags you get rid of the need for players to raid to get no drop items, firstly. The fact is if you're rolling around with droppable gear and your enemy has a guild of 70 players with full droppables, you're absolutely toasted and fucked. Firstly, they will have the advantage in every fight because they have 70 players, but secondly they get the new advantage of not worrying about their gear in fights.

Now if you remove no drop tags, you could simply kill these players and take their loot. Now your guild of 6 has the opportunity to get these items without having to join a 70 person guild to raid them like zombies. It also floods the market with stuff that would normally rot. How many times has a piece of paladin planar rotted in fear on a raid? Every single run? Well now that is bagged and either sold or used as a backup item incase you lose one in PVP. Until you get to VP, the vast majority of items that are best in slot for pvp will actually be droppable items, but what no drop items do is give a decent alternative that is comparable to best in slot for enormous value. You never have to worry about losing them, you can't get better value than that. So what is the first thing everyone is going to do? Join the biggest zerg they can, and get no drop items. It happened on Rallos in 1999, when we as EQ players were the most primitive. It will happen in 2014 when everyone is way more advanced in their understanding of EQ and games in general.

That's how you stop zergs in my opinion.

Ok, so let's assume planar armor is suddenly droppable. How does that reduce zergs? All that does is incentivize the mass farming of Hate and Fear in order to stockpile huge reserves of replacement armor. What type of guild can best accomplish this? Take a wild guess.

What is your 6 man guild going to do when the 40 man zerg guild on the enemy team rolls in and farms Hate or Fear every night? Hope that they sell you, their enemy, the armor you need? And then loot it back off your corpse when they zerg roll you?

Further, by making planar armor droppable, you not only encourage the formation of zerg guilds, but their continued existence indefinitely. Since their gear will never be secure, people will have an incentive to join the guild with the largest reserve of replacement gear. And again, take a wild guess as to which sort of guild that will be. On the other hand, with no drop gear, a player can join a zerg guild to gear up and then leave if he wants. With everything droppable, he's more likely to stick around with the zerg.

Have you ever actually played on a Teams server? All of your ideas and justifications seem to be based on RZ, various emus and Red. This makes your obsession with stopping zergs understandable, but you're sort of attempting to solve a problem that doesn't exist on a Teams server (or which exists, but to a much smaller degree).

[Millburn]

Make raid gear lore, argument solved.

[Vexenu]

Make raid gear lore, argument solved.

Perversely, this also incentivizes large zerg guilds, since the best way around this is to simply have more players on the roster to spread the banked gear around. Very easy to keep track of who is holding what with a simple Google spreadsheet.

The bottom line is that regardless of the ruleset, zergs tend to emerge in EQ. It's inevitable in a game where numbers are the number one factor in both PvE and PvP. The best way to weaken zergs is with hardcoded teams, which artificially limit the recruitment pool for any single guild, and ensure strong competition from guilds on rival teams.

Teams with PvP also directly incentivizes stronger guilds to help weaker guilds acquire gear, since they will rely on them as allies in PvP battles. With regular no drop planar gear, this results in smaller guilds piggybacking on large guild raids to pick up gear rots. With droppable planar gear, the dominant guild will hoard almost all of it in reserve. The only way to get some? Join the zerg yourself, and stay there.

[Lowlife]

That was your most compelling post thus far.

[Lowlife]

My only issue with your previous post (181) is the assumption that standard RZ style item loot won't lead to a massive attrition of the player base before droppable planear gear even becomes relevant, as RZ style free looting caters too specifically to pvp veterans rather than a compromise item loot solution.

[Velerin]

I guess in that way it works. It would definitely reduce the cost of items. The one good thing with item loot is things are cheaper and easier to come by for the casuals. The more I think about it with teams pvp it might even work better with item loot (and I was against item loot).
I couldn't stand RZ (always played VZ) because if you wanted to pvp you were a 'pker' and thus it meant you (if you don't become a pker) lost a lot more items than you ever gained. With teams you can pvp more because you're supposed to.

[Vexenu]

TDC? Darkenbane? What was your Ranger's name? Curious if we ever crossed paths. I was Spinfusor, Iksar Monk.

Anyway, kind of tired of debating your proposal at this point. Honestly, I find it the most interesting of all the item loot proposals, I just think it would scare too many casuals away from the server. If item loot is 100% decided on (I'm hoping it's not) I think it would be worth eliminating no drops just to see how things actually played out. It would be a very bold and interesting experiment at the very least. I'm just afraid we'd consequentially never get a population anywhere near the server's potential due to Blue players recoiling in horror at the combination of item loot and no no-drops.

[nilbog]

a very bold and interesting experiment at the very least.

We do have beta phases for experimentation.

[Lowlife]

It isn't about the quality of the gear, its about the perceived impact of the loss, perception of inconvenience, etc.

Sensation of loss is universally experienced more severely than gratification of gain.

I killed looted the first Jade Mace acquired by a monk on RZ. He quit over that.

[Lowlife]

I just think it would scare too many casuals away from the server.

Actually I think FV style no NO DROPS could lure many blue players, at the very least serve to offset the horror of item loot.

[Vexenu]

Actually I think FV style no NO DROPS could lure many blue players, at the very least serve to offset the horror of item loot.

It's possible.

The only thing certain with a change of that magnitude is that it would produce a lot of unintended consequences, both good and bad.

It could result in a fun server where lots of small guilds battle and no zergs form, or it could result in the formation of a monster zerg that monopolizes Hate and Fear 24/7 in order to stockpile armor. No no-drops could also exacerbate RMT issues and attract those sort of players to the server.

Impossible to know if it would ultimately be better or worse, all we can say for sure is that it would be very different.

[Danger]

I support this.

[MrSparkle001]

Item loot will both make the server popular and sink it: It will be popular in the beginning, lots of people will play, but when the novelty wears off the server will sink lower than red99.

You think red is bad with one guild in control of all endgame drops? Transfer that to teams99 where that controlling guild can also loot everyone else.

[Danger]

i think that line of thinking falls within the context of a FFA server and does not regard the safety net of, nor comradery of teams that can be mobilized to dezerg the zerg

[Vexenu]

Ok, so I'm coming around to DrScience's no no-drop proposal if the server actually ends up going with item loot (which I think would be a mistake, but that seems to be the direction we're going, so I'll try to make the best of it). I think it's the most interesting, elegantly simple and potentially beneficial proposal. It's perhaps the only proposal that would have a big impact on endgame PvP and conceivably slow down the dominant team/guild by opening their members up to item loss.

Now, the big problem emerges: how do you sell item loot + no no-drops to Blue players? How do you get enough players to give that ruleset a chance? PvP alone is a tough sell to a Blue player, I can only imagine how PvP with item loot and no no-drops would sound. It's important to have a compelling sales pitch for a server with this ruleset. Population is king.

Another important consideration would be to do something about bagging macros. Even if they weren't a big factor on Live, it's guaranteed they would be here, especially without no-drop items. Bagging macros would give a huge competitive advantage to any person who used them and would essentially protect them from PvP loss while non-users would face enormous risk. Is there any way to detect the use of a bagging macro?

[fredschnarf]

just want you all to know i dont read any of your huge posts and most other people dont either

so dont waste time, also theres never going to be an item loot server so cut yourself and move on

[Danger]

just want you all to know i dont read any of your huge posts and most other people dont either

so dont waste time, also theres never going to be an item loot server so cut yourself and move on

thx 4 reading

[Rheon]

TBH, I like the original RZ system because it's the one I played with.

Then you should use it! it worked well. No point trying to reinvent the wheel..Rz had a perfectly good Item loot system that did the job.

[Rheon]

I've been trying to find the words to describe why "randomized" looting is bad.

The best use case I came up with is that there isn't always an opportunity to loot someone effectively. What I mean by 'looting someone effectively' is systematically checking each piece of gear in their inventory after kill and choosing the most valuable to you/most valuable to them/or some combination.

It's pretty obvious that if you see a cloak of flames you should loot it just based on rarity, but most pvp encounters you won't have the luxury of such items so you'll have a pretty large selection of decent items.

Now lets use the example that you're in a 5 v 5 fight in the middle of SolB, you just killed me but you're at 30% health and you think you're being targeted by the wizard. Since you've decided you're about to die, you try to loot me. You figure you have less than 3 seconds until the ice comet hits, so you're really under the gun to loot.

You see what looks like a hooded black cloak, but don't have the time to bring up the text to see what item it is. You decide to assume I own a hooded black cloak and loot it, just before getting killed by the wizard.

When you get back to your corpse, you find out you really looted a [insert really bad cloak that shares the same icon as HBC]. This type of scenario (and I assure you, it will be a very common scenario - being under an extreme time constraint to loot an item) is not possible under "randomized" looting. In fact, you've changed the whole dynamic of item loot and taken away all of the emotion from it. That's the best way to describe it using 1 use case.

This guy has it right, 1v1 with no other players around sure..if you killed someone you could take all day looting a corpse..but not when it was 5v5 or even 2v1! you only had time to have a quick loot check before dieing or having to run.

Also what about portal campers? or zone entrance/exit campers, if i have 100% chance of looting an item off someone i might as well sit on a portal with my buddy and wait for someone to port in and kill them before they finish loading in or sit outside a zone waiting for low health players to zone out and kill them? The no bagging items rule would be silly and i don't think many people would enjoy playing in that kinda scenario, it way too imbalanced.

[Something'Witty]

We do have beta phases for experimentation.

I dig it! Let Nilbog do whatever he wants with initial beta, and then give feedback on tweaks etc. That being said, can we stop posting new item loot threads...
http://www.russianmachineneverbreaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/please-no-more.gif

[Runya]

How about diminishing return on being looted?

[Clark]

as he returns to his keyboard with a cup of coffee at 6% hp, spilling hot java all over her legs as he frantically tries to access the keyboard his cat just walked onto.

lol

[Lowlife]

I posted like, runlvlzero levels yesterday while being trapped behind my laptop at work for like 24 hours. I went home and passed the fuck out. (If anyone has been on barracks duty, you understand) I literally was dreaming about item loot and shit. So.. I need to get the fuck away from this shit for a few days.

Having said that, DrScience won me over. I think removal of no drops is crucial for the acquisition of gear, if nothing else, by non-pve specialists and to deter zergs. While it will be much, much more population damaging, and increase player attrition of bluebies/eqmac/casuals, no-no drops requires a variant of RZ style item loot, be it old school or nilbog's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWGXt979yg

[Tradesonred]

No drop on Rallos for me was a table turner. Where before i had hardly any chance against twinks, I died a little slower... that was something.

I was about to quit because i thought i came in too late, people are geared to the teeth, and halloween 2001 happened where i frantically scavenged 8 pieces of no drop gear lying on bodies in different zones.

Without that i probably would have quit, mind you the chest piece i think dropped off a lvl 35 mob, and it was still hard to fight twinks with that gear on.

Im not sure about the high end no drop, wont speak of it because i dont have alot of experience in it. But i do have experience in being a naked noob vs twinks and i think that no drop tiered custom sets would really help the pop thats not the hardcore vets from red99 not bleed out fast. I think we should do it exactly like on Rallos, through event mobs that at the same time make for some great pvp events as people fight over event mobs.

[Runya]

Lol halloween events on rz were the best

[MrSparkle001]

i think that line of thinking falls within the context of a FFA server and does not regard the safety net of, nor comradery of teams that can be mobilized to dezerg the zerg

That depends on a healthy server population though. With low pop it's not easy to mobilize a zerg, especially if what I predict will happen happens and most people choose to play on the most populated team.

We ultimately have to see just what will happen, but my prediction is that the server will be fairly popular early on and will sink once the novelty wears off, with one team becoming overwhelmingly superior and the other two teams mostly naked druids and wizards out to gank.

I'm not a fan of item loot in a game like this that has zero pvp balance and unbalancing things like deleveling (which was later mostly fixed by adding item levels and caps on skill levels).

[Nirgon]

4 level range is what it should be on red99 with no ffa zones

server unplayable after give or take 3 months.

Should be talking about fixing red before we talk about any of this. Whether or not people want to play red is fine, but at least it serves as a test bed before shooting your load onto a potentially dead on arrival server.

Illegal training is fine, FFA raid zones is not. Lvl 60s cock blocking the 52ers from naggy/vox (or sub 56 from gearing up in fear) or leveling in those zones is not classic for an FFA server by any sense of the imagination.

As far as item loot, I just see a bunch of people who want to win by hours invested in the game. They want to spend every hour playing and have their advantage against new players with NO RISK. They can throw themselves in full gear over and over at lower level players or up and coming guilds with no fear of loss.

With said cowards of item loot being forced to wear their no drop planar, that evens them out with the rest of the cowards, or puts them at the mercy of skilled players who aren't afraid to risk their droppable resist gear.

[Aenor]

I literally was dreaming about item loot and shit. So.. I need to get the fuck away from this shit for a few days.

It's a teams99 feeding frenzy up in this bitch. lol at the please no more gif.

[Bazia]

I dig it! Let Nilbog do whatever he wants with initial beta, and then give feedback on tweaks etc. That being said, can we stop posting new item loot threads...
http://www.russianmachineneverbreaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/please-no-more.gif

[Tune]

AWW YISSS

[Gustoo]

Wearing a set of paintakingly collected obscure pieces of scrub no drop gear was one of the most enjoyable features of an item loot server. It meant that previously useless garbage items were now worth acquiring because they let you roll around as a warrior with some PVE capabilities but not having to worry so much about getting wizard ganked when you're at 5%hp.

Possibly some kind of drop able item balancing for the high end. But I think to make all items droppable would be to deprive the server of a very very very valuable classic element of the game. So far, every custom GM derived implementation of the "ultimate super pro custom pvp box" has been basically a failure. R99 has custom features that have only served to make it less than it could have been. I will hate to see T99 be another half baked server because in a lot of ways it is our last chance.

[Nirgon]

DO IT

NOW

[Philipangoo]

I just remember rolling around looking naked for the most part and wearing nice droppable jewelry and items that weren't visible. Made bagging them that much easier. On loot servers no one can tank worth a shit cause everyones too afraid to wear good armor unless its like bronze even in a grp. But knowing that, I even recalled a mage nuking our tank to loot his bronze bp. Was good times.

[Kelsar]

BLUF - DONT PLAY IF YOU CANT TAKE ITEM LOOT