Lets build a PvP Paladin

[Lowlife]

Underrated and underrepresented on both blue and red servers, the Paladin has sparked my interest as of late having discovered Stinktum's awesome post "In Defense of the Paladin" ( http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=108428 ).

With the teams server coming following Velious, I figured there would be no better time to discuss a infrequently played class on what was historically, the lowest populated team. The Good team.

So, Paladins of Blue and Red, people who've gone head to head with Paladins in combat, and min maxers and number crunchers, lets discuss the PvP paladin

What races and deitys and stat allocations would you personally suggest on an item loot pvp server?

what are some hallmark paladin clickies, weapons, and quests?

what are the essential paladin tactics, spells, and techniques particular to Paladin pvp?

How moot is the Paladins root and stun line of spells rendered in an environment where your opponents stack resists?

And anything else you want to bring to the table.

[Nytch]

Someone find Gink Pink epic froglok paladin of SZ to reply to this please.

[pharmakos]

Deity shouldn't matter too much.... dump all your points into stamina

the Deepwater Helm has a clicky that allows you to infinitely heal yourself, mana-free. the Deepwater Boots has an Endure Magic clicky, a buff that Paladins don't get innately. the other Deepwater clickies aren't all that useful supposedly, but i haven't gotten any of them yet myself.

the Paladin Armor of Ro quests are the classic armor quests for Paladins.... equivalent to, say Warrior's Crafted or Bard's Lambent. they are the toughest of the old world armor quests, though... lots of running around for each piece, and they're expensive (each piece requires two 100p platinum bars).

the Bracers of Ro from those quests are probably the best piece for a PVP Paladin... 5MR each bracer... two less MR than the 7MR JC'd bracers, but these pally bracers have 9AC too. all of the pieces from this set other than the Helm and the Boots have a resist of some kind... only the bracers are MR though.

then of course, there's also Soulfire / Fiery Avenger / Fiery Defender.... Fiery Defender is considered by some to be the easiest of the epic quests.

the best paladin tactic, for both PVE and PVP, is jousting. get a nice big slow two handed weapon. I use an Argent Defender, which swings only about once every 5 seconds. so what I do in PVE is root whatever i'm fighting, and only step into melee range for a swing every 5 seconds. turn off auto attack between swings, if you leave it on and accidentally get a "your target is too far away" or "you cannot see your target" message then you have to wait another 5 seconds for another chance to swing. if you're good enough with your timing you can even sit down for meditate ticks between swings. :) the timing can be tricky though.... leave your Inventory window open and watch your mana number to make sure its working.

the same general jousting tactic is also the go to tactic for PVP... its just harder to keep players rooted since they're usually decked out in MR gear.

paladins don't really get that many spells.... i've been deleting all the lower level spells i'm replacing in each spell line as i level up, and i only have 13 spells in my level 46 paladin's spell book. paladins only get 3 stuns (the second one is at level 49). they also, though, get Root and the Lull line, making them more suited for dungeon crawling than the other two tank classes.

and Paladin heals are almost as good as Druid or Shaman heals.... through many level ranges, Paladins use the same healing spell as Druids and Shamans... currently my 46 Paladin is using 270HP Greater Healing, the same that Druids and Shamans will be using until their low 50s. they're still not as good at healing as Druids or Shamans, though, even with the same heal spell.... due to the fact that Druids and Shamans can sit during fights and have a higher Meditate skill cap, and can pump out more Greater Heals more often.

Paladin's two main spells that you would like to use during PVP -- Stun and Root -- both do their save checks vs. Magic Resist, so during PVP combat Paladins basically become slightly weaker warriors that make up for it by being able to heal themselves. i've almost never been able to land either spell during PVP combat.

[Versch]

Erudites get a natural boost to MR and look badass in plate.

[pharmakos]

Erudites get a natural boost to MR and look badass in plate.

plus they get some pretty good Erudite only items.... Shield of the Stalwart Seas comes to mind

abysmally low STR might be a pretty big hindrance on a fresh server without an abundance of STR gear, though

[Nytch]

Erudites get a natural boost to MR and look badass in plate.

That Shield is a Hate drop so it wouldn't do much good for leveling or PvP since you are going to want to joust so you wont be using a 1 hander and shield.

They do look awesome though....

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I would think dwarfs have the best Paladin starting stats.

I really like that idea about rooting and moving in to range every couple seconds. Very neat!

[pharmakos]

I would think dwarfs have the best Paladin starting stats.

they do have the best stats... but then you've gotta be short and ugly. regular sized people with flaming swords are just so much more impressive! =p

I really like that idea about rooting and moving in to range every couple seconds. Very neat!

paladin is the only class that the strategy really works for. shadow knights don't get root, and rangers get root but i don't think it's typically worth the DPS loss from using a 2hander over dual wielding.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

they do have the best stats... but then you've gotta be short and ugly. regular sized people with flaming swords are just so much more impressive! =p



paladin is the only class that the strategy really works for. shadow knights don't get root, and rangers get root but i don't think it's typically worth the DPS loss from using a 2hander over dual wielding.

Half elves are by far the best looking paladins. Robocop helmet Ftw! I just suggested it because they are technically the best race to choose due to their stats (also somersault).

I could really only see the root and scoot method working on 40+ delay weapons as anything under 25 delay would be equal to or lower than the mobs innate delay. Wurmslayer + anything would be a good option but for pally's any 2hs would probably work.

[myxomatosii]

Someone find Gink Pink epic froglok paladin of SZ to reply to this please.

[arsenalpow]

You need to get your AGI over that magical threshold (75 I think?) before you start dumping points into STA/STR

Dwarves have the best starting stats and they can wear the good cultural shit. Epic is BIS due to the fact that you can still bash with it. Just use blind for pvp. It's cheap to cast and more likely to land than a mana hungry stun.

[kaev]

You need to get your AGI over that magical threshold (75 I think?) before you start dumping points into STA/STR

Dwarves have the best starting stats and they can wear the good cultural shit. Epic is BIS due to the fact that you can still bash with it. Just use blind for pvp. It's cheap to cast and more likely to land than a mana hungry stun.

FoL & Stun are both MR, and neither has a resist mod that I know of, how can one be more likely to land than the other? (The mana hungry bit is so true tho.)

[pharmakos]

Flash of Light / Root / Stun almost never land in PVP, due to people stacking MR gear. don't count on them at all.

[JayN]

They are ignored and thn can LoH maybe changing the scale of the battle! lol thats about it

[Vexenu]

The main advantage of a Paladin in PvP is a lot of staying power. To begin with, you're a tank, with a huge HP pool and plate armor. You're basically immune to all DoTs and debuffs since you can dispell poison, disease and magic effects. You get Cleric HP buffs including Symbols, which are significant. Then of course you have a ton of healing you can toss out as well. At 55 you also get DA (invuln), which can be timed to eat a big nuke or two, among other uses. And then, when all else fails, you can Lay on Hands for an insta-CH once an hour or so. (Come Velious you also get Celestial Cleansing, a 700 HP heal over time for 225 mana with a 1.5s cast time. With this spell you are functionally immortal).

Altogether this makes you supremely difficult to kill, especially 1 on 1. Most casters will run OOM if they try, especially Shamans and Necros who try to DoT you and you just dispel instantly. Nuking classes will have difficult as well, since their nukes are nerfed to 2/3 damage while your heals heal for 100%. Basically, if you're playing a Paldin and aren't the last man standing in every PvP fight, you're doing something terribly wrong.

Offensively, your damage is 100% reliant on your jousting ability. If you are skilled jouster with a high damage 2H weapon, you can do very well. Better than people would think. You will never be able to burst anyone down, but you can get some heavy hits in for sure. Combined with your absurd defensive abilities, your offense is more than sufficient to defeat most classes 1 vs. 1. The problem is you probably won't actually kill them, since they'll just run away and you don't really have any way of preventing this.

Your stuns/roots/blinds will almost never land in PvP unless you're rolling with an Enchanter to debuff. So it's really only worth tossing up a Hail Mary stun to try to stop a gate, and rooting pets. The rest of your mana is best saved for heals and cures. A good Paladin is one of the best classes in group fights, since they're always targeted last they can just run around whacking people for the entire fight and tossing out spot heals/cures to groupmates as needed. If they're a good jouster the total damage they do will be higher than most anyone else (due to living so long), and a well-timed LoH on an ally can turn the tide of any battle.

Very underrated PvP class. Not really a dangerous killing class, but the class that no one is eager to fight, because it will just be a slow, losing battle for them.

[dethbringre]

You need to get your AGI over that magical threshold (75 I think?) before you start dumping points into STA/STR

Dwarves have the best starting stats and they can wear the good cultural shit. Epic is BIS due to the fact that you can still bash with it. Just use blind for pvp. It's cheap to cast and more likely to land than a mana hungry stun.

Dont waste your time on silly AGI at the start. Cat O Nine Tails from Eruds Crossing is +18 AGI proc at lvl 20, puts you well above the 75 threshold and last for 36 mins. Only downside is it procs a bit slow and weighs 8lbs.

Alot of suggestions I see here say go 2hander only, but I wouldnt ignore 1hs+shield, Bash can be VERY handy when fighting casters in pvp and pve.

Also, I alot of talk about Root for pvp being handy and yes it is, however, with the current resist changes on Red, Root will rarely land. My focus in pvp is usually Stuns, Blind, Dispells, and if I have the mana and seem to be landing most of my stuns, I'll try a Root, but its generally gonna resist. The key for me so far has been Stuns + Dispells.

For casters go Sword and Board and watch the caster messages and be ready for a Stun or Bash.

For melee, as a pally your pretty hard to kill to begin with so just back into a corner and start swing that big hitting 2hander, if things go south hit LoH. When fighting an SK he is gonna try to whittle down your HP enough to one shot you with HT. So its a gamble when to use your LoH.

For shamans, necros and the occasional SK who DoTs. Keep up your cures that can really save you.

Sorry I went on a rant, I'm sleepy and a bit high.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Dont waste your time on silly AGI at the start. Cat O Nine Tails from Eruds Crossing is +18 AGI proc at lvl 20, puts you well above the 75 threshold and last for 36 mins. Only downside is it procs a bit slow and weighs 8lbs.

Alot of suggestions I see here say go 2hander only, but I wouldnt ignore 1hs+shield, Bash can be VERY handy when fighting casters in pvp and pve.

Also, I alot of talk about Root for pvp being handy and yes it is, however, with the current resist changes on Red, Root will rarely land. My focus in pvp is usually Stuns, Blind, Dispells, and if I have the mana and seem to be landing most of my stuns, I'll try a Root, but its generally gonna resist. The key for me so far has been Stuns + Dispells.

For casters go Sword and Board and watch the caster messages and be ready for a Stun or Bash.

For melee, as a pally your pretty hard to kill to begin with so just back into a corner and start swing that big hitting 2hander, if things go south hit LoH. When fighting an SK he is gonna try to whittle down your HP enough to one shot you with HT. So its a gamble when to use your LoH.

For shamans, necros and the occasional SK who DoTs. Keep up your cures that can really save you.

Sorry I went on a rant, I'm sleepy and a bit high.

Great rant, great sig, great post.

[Lowlife]

Great rant, great sig, great post.

seconded

[Lowlife]

HIE/HEF Tunare worth it for Nature's Defender alone?

ND worth a shit aside from looking cool?

[Something'Witty]

The main advantage of a Paladin in PvP is a lot of staying power.

Great summary.

[pharmakos]

you definitely want to put 5 points into AGI if you started a Dwarf or an Erudite. there's a huge AC loss for having less than 75 AGI. (encumber yourself with copper and you can see it)

[Lowlife]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXFNXlgPB4c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUcE7SMnhpg

nice.

[Danger]

whats the best pvp paladin besides a dorf?

[pharmakos]

whats the best pvp paladin besides a dorf?

IMO human

maybe erudite for the extra 10MR



i wish barbarians could be paladins.

[Danger]

IMO human

maybe erudite for the extra 10MR



i wish barbarians could be paladins.

ERU get +5MR not 10

[Lowlife]

My thing is, Dwarf stats are SO much better than any other race its not even close. But I'm wondering (other than the Nature's Defender) are there items that non-dwarves exclusively get? Like the Robe of the Azure Sky is pretty awesome, and that excludes Dwarves and Half-Elves.

[pharmakos]

there's some sky quest swords that are HUM/ERU only

then of course cultural armor, but dwarf cultural armor is the best too...

[Danger]

My thing is, Dwarf stats are SO much better than any other race its not even close. But I'm wondering (other than the Nature's Defender) are there items that non-dwarves exclusively get? Like the Robe of the Azure Sky is pretty awesome, and that excludes Dwarves and Half-Elves.

what robes aside from azure is even pallie wearable?

[fishingme]

paladin's deepwaterbracers have clicky-cast stun btw.

[pharmakos]

paladin's deepwaterbracers have clicky-cast stun btw.

6 second cast time makes it not very useful for interrupting spells

[Nytch]

6 second cast time makes it not very useful for interrupting spells


It is if you are interupting a complete heal

[pharmakos]

yeah you can interrupt a cheal or a gate/port with it, thats about it

[Smedy]

Deity shouldn't matter too much.... dump all your points into stamina


instantly stop reading here, pharmakos obviously does not play pvp

a paladin should always pump all points into mana, as paladin is one of the few classes that may almost always spend all mana before they die (especially in velious with pally torpor)

more mana = more hp and to cap out wisdom is harder then stamina with wisdom paladin gear.

i'd go dwarf paladin for the pros of being small in pvp (less visisble target) and also getting the barrelroll on that, pump everything in wisdom, make sure you have 75 agi tho, might have to spend 5 points in agi to get that stupid ac bonus

[pharmakos]

^ truth, i am new to PVP, but i do play it. you make a good point, though -- i dump most of my mana in each PVP encounter. at level 49, each point of WIS gives me about 4 more mana, and each point of STA gives me about 4 more HP. my current heal costs 150mana but returns 270HP, so yeah, mana might be more important.

that said, though -- higher STA makes each LOH and Soulfire click count that much more. also, even though this is the PVP server, most people spend the majority of their play time doing PVE stuff, and STA is much more important than WIS for a paladin in a group.

at the end of the day it might be a crapshoot which is better, but you've definitely got me thinking about how i'll spend my points on my teams paladin...

[Millburn]

^ truth, i am new to PVP, but i do play it. you make a good point, though -- i dump most of my mana in each PVP encounter. at level 49, each point of WIS gives me about 4 more mana, and each point of STA gives me about 4 more HP. my current heal costs 150mana but returns 270HP, so yeah, mana might be more important.

that said, though -- higher STA makes each LOH and Soulfire click count that much more. also, even though this is the PVP server, most people spend the majority of their play time doing PVE stuff, and STA is much more important than WIS for a paladin in a group.

at the end of the day it might be a crapshoot which is better, but you've definitely got me thinking about how i'll spend my points on my teams paladin...

Don't worry about Wisdom Goat, I'll be rolling chanter so I got your back.

[mtb tripper]

Don't worry about Wisdom Goat, I'll be rolling chanter so I got your back.

that gif in your sig is classic

[Lowlife]

thread needs more love and pro tipz

[williestargell]

HIE/HEF Tunare worth it for Nature's Defender alone?

it was worth it on live IMO, that is yet to be seen on P99 with AC at least partially broken. I prefer high elves. Best mana, good racial armor, ND and other great quests.