Diff between Pally and SK Tanking?

[VincentVolaju]

How come so many more people choose SK's over pally? Like there is 3x as many SKs on /who all list then there is Pallys. I thought they were basically the same except SK used Disease Cloud, and Pally used a Stun for aggro?

The pallys spells/skills are snap aggro just like SK's right? So whats the downside of a pally, if they can tank just as well as an SK?

[Rimson]

The stuns were not in Classic.

[VincentVolaju]

Well, whatever it is that Pallys use for aggro. Isnt it just as good as disease cloud?

[Rimson]

No because DoT's generate a huge amount of aggro while Pally's have nothing even close to that.

[Rimson]

They get root, one stun at 30, and one at 49 in classic. No where near the hate generation as an SK with a DoT.

[Humerox]

All about the aggro. SK's keep it better than Pallies. Pallies have to work quite a bit harder to keep it.

SK's can pull a bit easier, too.

[Bubbles]

The Paladin 'lull' line of spells is incredibly useful, plus the fact that paladins can root/park adds (or even root/park to pull) coupled with their stuns and hp buffs and gimp healing and LOH make them very valuable to any team not completely hell-bent on min-maxing.

Yay huge sentence.

Both are great tanks, both have nice tricks up their sleeve for keeping aggro, and both kill mobs by waiting for them to die of old age. Classic as can be. :)

Also, SK's don't get all of their class-defining spells early on. Pre-30 a paladin has a lot more utility, although the old adage "you can't outtaunt a SK" is always going to be the case. You'll do well grouping and respecting both classes.

[Skope]

As an off-tank I prefer a paladin over an SK, and a warrior as primary tank. The reason for that is on raids a root and blind can not only generate aggro, but also limit the mob's reaction and darting for an enchanter. Sometimes disease cloud just doesn't cut it, and it's actually easier for a paladin to generate that initial aggro and save the cleric/offhealer a heal with a root than it is for an SK to spam disease cloud.

Both, though, are great tanks when played properly.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

As an off-tank I prefer a paladin over an SK, and a warrior as primary tank. The reason for that is on raids a root and blind can not only generate aggro, but also limit the mob's reaction and darting for an enchanter. Sometimes disease cloud just doesn't cut it, and it's actually easier for a paladin to generate that initial aggro and save the cleric/offhealer a heal with a root than it is for an SK to spam disease cloud.

Both, though, are great tanks when played properly.

That. Paladins in a multi-group capacity are used as a blinder (which the other priests can fill as well, but they're usually busy healing).

Blind acts as a fear when no one is in melee range. When one or more players are in melee range, the mob will attack the person with highest threat in melee range. The enchanter thing in planes is especially key, as mem-blur doesn't work on dick here.

[guineapig]

As stated before, Paladins have 2 abilities that guarantee with 100% certainty that they will instantly have agro as soon as the spell lands; root and blind. All they have to do is make sure they are the closest player to the target (which if they are the main tank they already are the closest).

Shadow Knights do have the highest agro generating ability but it still has to deal with beating every other player's aggro level in order for the snap aggro to occur. Yes, in most situations it isn't a problem, but I have seen plenty of instances where an SK was unable to peel a raid mob off an Enchanter or healer for a good few rounds of combat.

And lets not forget how impartant being able to chain stun a mob is, especially in the planes or when dealing with mobs that can heal themselves or do any sort of nasty effect.

[Virtuosos]

speaking as a paladain...

we rule


:p



although i did spend 3 days stuck in hate due to not being able to gate out or get a port.....and for that, i have only one thing to say : Clerics get heals, buffs, spells for damage...paladins get exactly the same *including rez*....clerics get gate....paladins get invigor

WTF :x?!

[Zukan]

Thank you for this thread. Makes me feel better about playing a paladin!

[darkblade717]

How come so many more people choose SK's over pally? Like there is 3x as many SKs on /who all list then there is Pallys. I thought they were basically the same except SK used Disease Cloud, and Pally used a Stun for aggro?

The pallys spells/skills are snap aggro just like SK's right? So whats the downside of a pally, if they can tank just as well as an SK?

1. SK Self Healing far surpasses that of Paladins in effectiveness because the SK doesn't have to switch targets.

2. SK does more DPS than a Paladin (stupid weapons like Ghoulbane aside, as not everyone has that).

3. SK generates a lot more aggro than Paladins. Disease Cloud is ridiculous, always has been. Up until a few months ago people on EQLive were STILL using it on occasion.

4. A lot of people making SKs are basing it off of recent SK capabilities, not realizing we will probably never see AA or 90% of the awesome tricks we have in EQ today.

5. The standard races for SK are better suited for tanking. Ogre/Troll with super high stamina, Dark Elf with super high Agility.

6. Aesthetically it's just a cooler class. Most Paladins (from my experience, anyway) back in the day on EQ were whiny and really bad players.

[darkblade717]

The Paladin 'lull' line of spells is incredibly useful, plus the fact that paladins can root/park adds (or even root/park to pull) coupled with their stuns and hp buffs and gimp healing and LOH make them very valuable to any team not completely hell-bent on min-maxing.

If you aren't min-maxing your personal team then you're doing it wrong. SK, Cleric, Shaman, Enchanter/Bard, Magician, Magician GO!

[odizzido]

Both paladins and SKs do certain things better. Neither can do everything perfectly, though they can do well under most situations.

Obviously the best solution would be to have both on a raid and have the SK and pally both doing their thing.

[girth]

All things in game aside, paladins get made fun of and shadow knights sound cool and mysterious.

[Tronjer]

Obviously the best solution would be to have both on a raid and have the SK and pally both doing their thing.

- SK can fd pull
- Paladins get a stackable hp buff
- Warriors will tank due to /defensive

So the latter two are crucial for Kunark raiding.

[Mad Jacq]

Pally here.

Played one back in the day and play one now.

Both SK's and Paladins are great fun to play. And both are excellent tanks, perhaps the best for exp groups.

Two observations on this thread:

DON'T ROOT A MOB unless it is to park. You don't use root to get aggro. If you root then the mob will hit randomly and could swat your rogue, etc. Early on you use flash of light and later stuns. Also root is expensive manawise relatively speaking...

The other thought I had on this thread was that back when POP came out and I was like level 65 or something I never met a SK that could out taunt me. I can't remember exactly, but think it was like 3 hard core stuns I had. I used to pull with a stun, which really pissed the mobs off, and by the time the mob would get back to the group I would be chain stunning it. Then, and I experienced this more than once, a SK could have talked about the mob's mother and stacked every dot he had on it. Heck, he could have stacked the whole necro line on the mob if he had that too and the mob wouldn't even so much as glance at him.

Of course that might have been during the time when paladins were actually unbalanced. That period was fun. ;)

[Droxx]

It's simple: it's harder to be a good paladin than it is to be a good shadowknight.

[Bubbles]

If you aren't min-maxing your personal team then you're doing it wrong. Necro, Necro, Magician, Magician, Magician, Magician GO!

Fixed your post :)

[pallius]

I played 3 uber SKs. 1 on Brell Kunark > GoD. One on Sleeper (Combine) through Anguish. 1 on my own eqemu server through PoP (I don't really like the stuff after that :p). I used to pull NToV dragons to the zone in, etc. Relatively pro. I definitely have perspective on a good SK (and monk for what its worth regarding pulls).

Instead of making yet another SK, I decided to go with a paladin here to have a new experience. Here is the honest comparison:

1. In a regular fight, SKs do hold aggro better. It does take more work for a paladin to hold aggro. Anyone who says otherwise takes this issue to personally. That said, as long as a paladin has clarity, they should have no trouble holding aggro off the rest of the group indefinitely. They just have to cast a few extra times.

2. When mez breaks or someone hits the mob prematurely on a raid, I LOVE being able to nail the mob with stun, root, or blind to save the enc. I never could do that as an SK.

3. I really like using lull for pulls. In most situations, I prefer it over SK pulling. You just angle your camera around and lull all the mobs you don't want to pull. It is especially great in a chain pull situation because once you lull a set of mobs you have about 2 minutes to chain singles without any additional work. This is great in camps like executioner where every room is a train waiting to happen. Unless you get a resist, you won't miss fd splitting. A good paladin can out pull and SK in most situations if speed is a factor being measured.

4. Heals - fantastic. I don't play healer classes because I like to be in the action. But I love being able to heal a caster during a fight on a raid. In exp groups I can often heal myself in between fights for several rounds if a healer is afk or oom. Cleric is like "OOM DONT PULL" im like "Ok, healing self... pulling". Having a 270 heal is awesome. I can't wait for sup heal. Also, I love being able to root a mob, step back, and heal myself. This is super useful in dungeons. There are situations where as an SK I would have had to fd and call it a failure, but as a paladin I can root the mob and heal myself, or root the mob and med and heal myself. Even though I can't FD, I have gone as far as rooting 4 mobs in lguk and camping out.

5. Rooting for pulls: Great tactic that I honestly don't see paladins doing. Maybe they don't know how. Lets say for example I am pulling GIBS or bats in lguk or pulling BNB/LDCs/Efreeti area in an exp group. Sometimes you are going to get more than one even with lull. What I do is lull what I can, then pull by rooting one of them. The remaining come and I hit F8 and root while I walk backwards to the group. Now they are all spread out and easy for the enc to mes. Even if we have no enc, that is fine too. They will break root in a staggered fashion and come to the group on a delay. I can re-root for CC or just kill them. I call it "auto pull". Root 2-3 mobs during the pull and as you kill the first one, here comes the second. The group is like "whoa, cool". Encs love it. SKs can't do it. It is also great when you're in a hurry and don't want to take the time to lull, like if you're chain pulling for exp.

6. Root CC - invaluable for a tank class. I never knew what I was missing as an SK. It really allows a good paladin to truly protect the group.

7. Lulling a wanderer - I always keep an eye out for pathing mobs, like the nox ph in BNB group. Once you see it out of the corner of your eye during a fight, hit it with lull. Now its much less likely to add.


There are many other points. But the main one is this: Being a good paladin is all about control. They have more tools to control a situation than an SK. If the player is skilled, you will be able to control the situation and protect your group better as a paladin. The paladin will have less dps. They won't be as cool. They are going to die sometimes because they dont have FD. They have to work harder for aggro. But at the end of the day, they have other skills that SKs simply do not have, and as long as the player knows how to use them, Paladins are awesome.



As far as racial stats, that won't matter in kunark. Even right now in classic, I am hitting 235 str buffed and like 210 sta and am not done gearing still (http://www.wrathfulinquisition.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1467&char_id=1070).








And there is a ton of misinfo in this thread. For example, Mad Jacq is wrong when he says a rooted mob hits randomly and reveals he does not know how to play a paladin. Rooted mobs hit whatever is closest to them. So paladins can root a mob and then stand on its toes to be the one who gets hit. When all else fails, you can root it and stand on it to be the one it hits. But when root breaks, if you don't have aggro, its going to chase after whoever it wants to. It just buys you time to build more aggro.

Don't have time to address all the other false points. That one just really stood out.

[darkblade717]

I played 3 uber SKs. 1 on Brell Kunark > GoD. One on Sleeper (Combine) through Anguish. 1 on my own eqemu server through PoP (I don't really like the stuff after that :p). I used to pull NToV dragons to the zone in, etc. Relatively pro. I definitely have perspective on a good SK (and monk for what its worth regarding pulls).

Instead of making yet another SK, I decided to go with a paladin here to have a new experience. Here is the honest comparison:

1. In a regular fight, SKs do hold aggro better. It does take more work for a paladin to hold aggro. Anyone who says otherwise takes this issue to personally. That said, as long as a paladin has clarity, they should have no trouble holding aggro off the rest of the group indefinitely. They just have to cast a few extra times.

2. When mez breaks or someone hits the mob prematurely on a raid, I LOVE being able to nail the mob with stun, root, or blind to save the enc. I never could do that as an SK.

3. I really like using lull for pulls. In most situations, I prefer it over SK pulling. You just angle your camera around and lull all the mobs you don't want to pull. It is especially great in a chain pull situation because once you lull a set of mobs you have about 2 minutes to chain singles without any additional work. This is great in camps like executioner where every room is a train waiting to happen. Unless you get a resist, you won't miss fd splitting. A good paladin can out pull and SK in most situations if speed is a factor being measured.

4. Heals - fantastic. I don't play healer classes because I like to be in the action. But I love being able to heal a caster during a fight on a raid. In exp groups I can often heal myself in between fights for several rounds if a healer is afk or oom. Cleric is like "OOM DONT PULL" im like "Ok, healing self... pulling". Having a 270 heal is awesome. I can't wait for sup heal. Also, I love being able to root a mob, step back, and heal myself. This is super useful in dungeons. There are situations where as an SK I would have had to fd and call it a failure, but as a paladin I can root the mob and heal myself, or root the mob and med and heal myself. Even though I can't FD, I have gone as far as rooting 4 mobs in lguk and camping out.

5. Rooting for pulls: Great tactic that I honestly don't see paladins doing. Maybe they don't know how. Lets say for example I am pulling GIBS or bats in lguk or pulling BNB/LDCs/Efreeti area in an exp group. Sometimes you are going to get more than one even with lull. What I do is lull what I can, then pull by rooting one of them. The remaining come and I hit F8 and root while I walk backwards to the group. Now they are all spread out and easy for the enc to mes. Even if we have no enc, that is fine too. They will break root in a staggered fashion and come to the group on a delay. I can re-root for CC or just kill them. I call it "auto pull". Root 2-3 mobs during the pull and as you kill the first one, here comes the second. The group is like "whoa, cool". Encs love it. SKs can't do it. It is also great when you're in a hurry and don't want to take the time to lull, like if you're chain pulling for exp.

6. Root CC - invaluable for a tank class. I never knew what I was missing as an SK. It really allows a good paladin to truly protect the group.

7. Lulling a wanderer - I always keep an eye out for pathing mobs, like the nox ph in BNB group. Once you see it out of the corner of your eye during a fight, hit it with lull. Now its much less likely to add.


There are many other points. But the main one is this: Being a good paladin is all about control. They have more tools to control a situation than an SK. If the player is skilled, you will be able to control the situation and protect your group better as a paladin. The paladin will have less dps. They won't be as cool. They are going to die sometimes because they dont have FD. They have to work harder for aggro. But at the end of the day, they have other skills that SKs simply do not have, and as long as the player knows how to use them, Paladins are awesome.



As far as racial stats, that won't matter in kunark. Even right now in classic, I am hitting 235 str buffed and like 210 sta and am not done gearing still (http://www.wrathfulinquisition.com/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1467&char_id=1070).








And there is a ton of misinfo in this thread. For example, Mad Jacq is wrong when he says a rooted mob hits randomly and reveals he does not know how to play a paladin. Rooted mobs hit whatever is closest to them. So paladins can root a mob and then stand on its toes to be the one who gets hit. When all else fails, you can root it and stand on it to be the one it hits. But when root breaks, if you don't have aggro, its going to chase after whoever it wants to. It just buys you time to build more aggro.

Don't have time to address all the other false points. That one just really stood out.

Who were you on Brell?!

Fixed your post :)

Lawl

Pally here.

Played one back in the day and play one now.

Both SK's and Paladins are great fun to play. And both are excellent tanks, perhaps the best for exp groups.

Two observations on this thread:

DON'T ROOT A MOB unless it is to park. You don't use root to get aggro. If you root then the mob will hit randomly and could swat your rogue, etc. Early on you use flash of light and later stuns. Also root is expensive manawise relatively speaking...

The other thought I had on this thread was that back when POP came out and I was like level 65 or something I never met a SK that could out taunt me. I can't remember exactly, but think it was like 3 hard core stuns I had. I used to pull with a stun, which really pissed the mobs off, and by the time the mob would get back to the group I would be chain stunning it. Then, and I experienced this more than once, a SK could have talked about the mob's mother and stacked every dot he had on it. Heck, he could have stacked the whole necro line on the mob if he had that too and the mob wouldn't even so much as glance at him.

Of course that might have been during the time when paladins were actually unbalanced. That period was fun. ;)

You were playing with some really shitty SKs then.

[pallius]

On Brell, was Shadex (gnome mag), Dange Rous (iksar sk), Twinkered (human monk)

[Kevris]

Having played both a Paladin and Shadowknight back in the Kunark era, I'll say I found the SK to be far more destructive, but the Paladin to be far more useful.

You can also get away with less of a healer using a Paladin tank than you can with an SK, in a group situation that is.