Class Limitations on T99: Stupid or Strategic?

[Lowlife]

Veterans of SZ know that roughly 60% of the server was Evil, 10% of the server was Good and the remaining percentage was Neutral. While the former SZ presence on here is vast, we have no idea exactly what rule set staff will either select or create in order to determine team composition. Good, Neutral, Evil or Race War, or even Aenor's "Rep your City" have all been mentioned by staff but one detail keeps coming back, class distribution between teams.

What are your thoughts about denying teams key classes in order to provide a more robust population in the other two teams?

A quick example...

Evil loses Druid, Paladin, and Bard but Good loses Shaman, SK, Necro but Neutral loses Monk and so on and so forth.

[Kelsar]

evil has bards. Good has shamans.

[Rec]

I think despite what people say is not an important class in pvp, it will indeed break up the super crowd into separate teams.

[Origin]

A lot of people seem super opposed to this idea. I guess the fairest setup would be for all three teams to get access to all classes, but i'm not sure how plausible that is.

[Kelsar]

Good and newt must be able to summon corpses.

[Lowlife]

Good and newt must be able to summon corpses.

potions.

Some raid tactics would have to be re-thought with this setup too.

[Fawqueue]

There needs to be distinction between teams, and the easiest way to do is by restricting classes that don't make sense within the construct of that team. If it's based on deity, then Evil shouldn't have access to Paladins, Rangers, and Druids but should have access to Evil-aligned classes. It fits the lore and gives people who like the feel of that setting a choice that is different from the others. And as I've said in other posts, we need our decisions to be meaningful. If I know there are positive and negative consequences to my team decision, I will take it seriously and care which one I decide to become a member of. Otherwise, I'll be choosing indifferently, at random, and it won't really matter.

Will there be 100% balance between all three teams? No, but EverQuest wasn't designed that way to begin with, so I think trying to focus too heavily and giving everyone everything is foolish. Guild Wars 2 is a great example of how every team having identical classes for PvP gets boring really quickly. So Race War, Deity, Rep-yo-City...it doesn't matter. Just give each team some unique flavor, let those teams develop tactics centered around their individual strengths and weaknesses, and lets enjoy ourselves.

[tomato2]

stupid

for making another teams thread

[Lowlife]

There needs to be distinction between teams, and the easiest way to do is by restricting classes that don't make sense within the construct of that team. If it's based on deity, then Evil shouldn't have access to Paladins, Rangers, and Druids but should have access to Evil-aligned classes. It fits the lore and gives people who like the feel of that setting a choice that is different from the others. And as I've said in other posts, we need our decisions to be meaningful. If I know there are positive and negative consequences to my team decision, I will take it seriously and care which one I decide to become a member of. Otherwise, I'll be choosing indifferently, at random, and it won't really matter.

Will there be 100% balance between all three teams? No, but EverQuest wasn't designed that way to begin with, so I think trying to focus too heavily and giving everyone everything is foolish. Guild Wars 2 is a great example of how every team having identical classes for PvP gets boring really quickly. So Race War, Deity, Rep-yo-City...it doesn't matter. Just give each team some unique flavor, let those teams develop tactics centered around their individual strengths and weaknesses, and lets enjoy ourselves.

great post

[Reguiy]

This is also a concern of mine. I want to make a SK on t99, but I don't want to be on the overwhelming T99 favorite team. If we went with classic ruleset then the server would certainly be run by evil.

[Vayder]

In the running for dumbest post ever. Who would signup to play on a team without access to bards when the other team(s) have them? Have you ever tried to pvp without a bard against a group with one?

[Lowlife]

and guess what? People would still roll on Evil in droves.

[Vayder]

and guess what? People would still roll on Evil in droves.

Out of touch with reality

[Vexenu]

People who would roll on an Evil team with no Bards: shit-tier "PKs" who want to harm touch someone once an hour and can't get kills any other way; people who didn't know Evil team didn't get Bards; people who don't understand EQ PvP; people who don't understand EQ raiding

People who would roll on the other teams: every serious, knowledgeable, endgame focused player

Sounds like great a recipe for team balance.

[Lowlife]

People who would roll on an Evil team with no Bards: shit-tier "PKs" who want to harm touch someone once an hour and can't get kills any other way; people who didn't know Evil team didn't get Bards; people who don't understand EQ PvP; people who don't understand EQ raiding

People who would roll on the other teams: every serious, knowledgeable, endgame focused player

Sounds like great a recipe for team balance.

all of the above on evil sounds much better

[big mouth chew]

People who would roll on an Evil team with no Bards: shit-tier "PKs" who want to harm touch someone once an hour and can't get kills any other way; people who didn't know Evil team didn't get Bards; people who don't understand EQ PvP; people who don't understand EQ raiding

People who would roll on the other teams: every serious, knowledgeable, endgame focused player

Sounds like great a recipe for team balance.

u spelled ragebringer wrong ehehe

[Tikku82]

There needs to be class limitations. More the better.

[tomato2]

bla bla teams bla bla dont give a fuck

[Noselacri]

Other things factored into SZ's team imbalance, but the class issue definitely nudged it in that direction. Team evil had a monopoly on two of the best PvP classes in the game while the other two teams had basically the three worst classes in the game, so no serious PvPer could justify playing neutral unless they had masochistic urges. Few are going to pick team ranger when there's a vastly superior choice. Let's not pretend like the SZ model is a recipe for a thriving, balanced server.

If all teams had had access to all classes, I don't think the imbalance would have been anywhere near as extreme as it was. Evil would only have been slightly ahead by virtue of its theme attracting the type of nolifes who play all day and are willing to grief people off the server, but the other two teams would have had a relevant presence.

Class limitations would be okay if the classes in question were somewhat equal. Since it concerns two of the best PvP classes vs. the three worst classes in the game, the SZ model is untenable. The server would fail. People seem to forget that SZ was essentially a failed server, and anything fun happened in spite of its ridiculous ruleset, not because of it. Repeating the failed SZ experiment would be such a staggering mistake that I'd have to question the developers' intentions and sanity. Setting up another PvP server to be doomed from the start would be so monumentally stupid that it beggars belief. This is a second chance to create a functional P99 PvP server, don't fuck it up yet again with stupid design mistakes.

If you have to restrict something, restrict races. These are not fundamental to gameplay but can still satisfy the lore and convey the theme of the server if this is really necessary. It could be done like this:

Evil:
Dark elf
Troll
Ogre

Good:
Wood elf
High elf
Half-elf

Neutral:
Dwarf
Gnome
Halfling

Universal: (pick at level 1 by turning in a note or something)
Human
Erudite
Barbarian

This would make every class available to every team and still be sufficiently thematically justifiable as the human-derivative races could realistically choose to be on any side. It wouldn't be more of a stretch than SZ's setup -- before anyone cries about the lore, let me remind you that dark-elves could be neutral on SZ. The above teams would have plenty of personality and thematic distinction without the class restrictions that break the game.

This is a game where you can have your Innoruuk-worshipping cleric kill Innoruuk and nobody bats a fucking eye. Let's not pretend like the races and deities really mean that much. You can roleplay being a reformed necromancer who goes around doing good deeds by locating the corpses of innocent murder victims or whatever, it's certainly no dumber than killing your own god once a week while you continue worshipping it. This is not a game where the lore matters enough to justify decisions that are bad for the server.

[Lowlife]

Other things factored into SZ's team imbalance, but the class issue definitely nudged it in that direction. Team evil had a monopoly on two of the best PvP classes in the game while the other two teams had basically the three worst classes in the game, so no serious PvPer could justify playing neutral unless they had masochistic urges.

If all teams had had access to all classes, I don't think the imbalance would have been anywhere near as extreme as it was. Evil would only have been slightly ahead by virtue of its theme attracting the type of nolifes who play all day and are willing to grief people off the server, but the other two teams would have had a relevant presence.

Class limitations would be okay if the classes in question were somewhat equal. Since it concerns two of the best PvP classes vs. the three worst classes in the game, the SZ model is untenable. The server would fail. People seem to forget that SZ was essentially a failed server, and anything fun happened in spite of its ridiculous ruleset, not because of it. Repeating the failed SZ experiment would be such a staggering mistake that I'd have to question the developers' intentions and sanity.

If you have to restrict something, restrict races. These are not fundamental to gameplay but can still satisfy the lore and convey the theme of the server if this is really necessary. It could be done like this:

Evil:
Dark-elf
Troll
Ogre

Good:
Wood elf
High elf
Half-elf

Neutral:
Dwarf
Gnome
Halfling

Universal (deity-dependent like on SZ):
Human
Erudite
Barbarian

This would make every class available to every team and still be sufficiently thematically justifiable as the human-derivative races could realistically choose to be on any side. It wouldn't be more of a stretch than SZ's setup -- before anyone cries about the lore, let me remind you that dark-elves could be neutral on SZ. The above teams would have plenty of personality and thematic distinction without the class restrictions that break the game.

This is a game where you can have your Innoruuk-worshipping cleric kill Innoruuk and nobody bats a fucking eye. Let's not pretend like the races and deities really mean that much. This is not a game where the lore matters enough to justify decisions that are bad for the server.

How are SKs, Necros, Druids, Rangers and Paladins available to every team if their religious choice relegate them to a team by default.

Unless you added Druid/Ranger of Bertox or something

[SamwiseRed]

you cant balance eq perfectly without breaking it. i mean my god, class imbalance is the worst in any mmo to date. quit pissing on eq classic with your custom heresy.

[Noselacri]

Druid/Ranger of Bertox

Well, why not? Anyway, I edited that part before you replied. It could be anything, it doesn't matter, the point is that something that matters as little as EQ's deities is not worth fucking up a server over.

[Lowlife]

Well, why not? Anyway, I edited that part before you replied. It could be anything, it doesn't matter, the point is that something that matters as little as EQ's deities is not worth fucking up a server over.

Don't get me wrong, I think its a good idea, just got to work out the details regarding human team selection

[Noselacri]

Evil druid/ranger: Bertoxxulous. It's within the realm of reason, we already have a cursed forest and everything. Disease-spreading motherfuckers. They refuse to port you and are thus evil.

Evil paladin: Pick any evil deity and call it a fallen paladin. It's part of the D&D lore that Everquest is heavily based on. The game that Brad McQuaid completely plagiarized when he made EQ literally has an anti-paladin class. Entirely justifiable.

Good necromancer: Rodcet Nife. Necromancy is not so different from clerical magic and necromancers are not necessarily evil in most games. They deal with life and death type of stuff, maybe they serve as mediums for goodies who want to talk to their dead grannies.

Neutral necromancer: Prexus the Oceanlord? Flagellants campaigning for drowned sailors? Protesting the buggy Norrathian ships and the lack of support for recovering the remains of drowned newbies to be laid to rest? Legit.

Good shadowknight: Erollisi Marr. Anti-anti-paladins. They were shadowknights who fell in love and decided to do good deeds. It's fabulous.

Neutral shadowknight: Veeshan dragonknights or some shit.

[Rec]

good necromancer....good shadow knight....you're now dubbed the EQ comic

[Noselacri]

I'll be the one laughing when the server is dead after two months because 80% of the playerbase is on team evil.

[Lowlife]

^

[SamwiseRed]

an evil paladin is a shadow knight

[Noselacri]

No, shadowknights are to paladins what necromancers are to clerics. A shadowknight is not a fallen paladin.

[Nytch]

, let me remind you that dark-elves could be neutral on SZ.

I don't remember 1 Neutral DE on SZ....

[socialist]

I remember a neut DE wizard but not his name.

[Lowlife]

I don't remember 1 Neutral DE on SZ....

Rogues could worship Bristlebane

[Layne]

I support race wars. Should be able to interact though, tells, ports and summon corpses. And trade

[Rec]

why would a proud dark elf want to be on team shortie

[socialist]

Óbviously he had a raging, uncontrollable lust for midget porn.

[Kergan]

There were definitely neutral DEs, Sol Ro worshiping wizards.

[Nytch]

There were definitely neutral DEs, Sol Ro worshiping wizards.

Sol Ro was an evil deity, good try.

[Nytch]

I remember a neut DE wizard but not his name.

You are right and his name was Siinge, ninja looting piece of crap, made specifically to run into Neutral raids and try to Ninja gear from bosses we killed. Ninja looted the Kith piece from my friends rogue epic.

So my original comment was incorrect, there in fact were neutral DE's (only 1 I can think of)

[Vexenu]

I'll be the one laughing when the server is dead after two months because 80% of the playerbase is on team evil.

First of all, not even SZ had 80% of the server on team Evil.

Secondly, do you think Evil would be that populated on a modified server that had:

Evil team FFA PvP
Good and Neutral team stat and XP boosts
FV hammers
No Kunark at launch

I went into detail in another thread about why SZ was dominated by Evil. It had very little to do with their races and classes being superior (they are, but not by that much).

[Lowlife]

stat + xp boost is dum

[SamwiseRed]

Sol Ro was an evil deity, good try.

sol ro is newt, bad try

[Vexenu]

stat + xp boost is dum

Why? If the goal is to get more players on the Good and Neutral teams, that's the easiest way to do it.

It's a behind the scenes change that does nothing to impact immersion levels or lessen the classic feel of the game.

[SamwiseRed]

The Good Alliance consists of: Erollisi Marr, Mithaniel Marr, Rodcet Nife, Quellious, Tunare
The Evil Alliance consists of: Bertoxxulous, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Rallos Zek
The Neutral Alliance consists of: Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Karana, Prexus, Solusek Ro, The Tribunal, Veeshan.

[HippoNipple]

I don't think it is a big deal for ranger/druid/paladin/necromancer/shadowknights to be restricted to certain teams.

Bard/shaman needs to be on every team.

[Nytch]

The Good Alliance consists of: Erollisi Marr, Mithaniel Marr, Rodcet Nife, Quellious, Tunare
The Evil Alliance consists of: Bertoxxulous, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Rallos Zek
The Neutral Alliance consists of: Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Karana, Prexus, Solusek Ro, The Tribunal, Veeshan.

I am not convinced.

[SamwiseRed]

"Solusek generally maintains a position of relative neutrality in the Pantheon, claiming no other gods as formal allies or enemies. He does, however, have a friendly rivalry with Mithaniel Marr, the details of which are as yet unknown."

http://everquestlore.wikia.com/wiki/Solusek_Ro

[Kergan]

Sol Ro was an evil deity, good try.

You're incorrect.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39541

Sol Ro was Neutral.

From that post:


The 'Teams':

The Good Alliance consists of: Erollisi Marr, Mithaniel Marr, Rodcet Nife, Quellious, Tunare
The Evil Alliance consists of: Bertoxxulous, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Rallos Zek
The Neutral Alliance consists of: Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Karana, Prexus, Solusek Ro, The Tribunal, Veeshan.

[Kergan]

The Good Alliance consists of: Erollisi Marr, Mithaniel Marr, Rodcet Nife, Quellious, Tunare
The Evil Alliance consists of: Bertoxxulous, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Rallos Zek
The Neutral Alliance consists of: Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Karana, Prexus, Solusek Ro, The Tribunal, Veeshan.

Should have read your post before I essentially double-posted it, my bad!

[Nytch]

You're incorrect.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39541

Sol Ro was Neutral.

From that post:


The 'Teams':

The Good Alliance consists of: Erollisi Marr, Mithaniel Marr, Rodcet Nife, Quellious, Tunare
The Evil Alliance consists of: Bertoxxulous, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Rallos Zek
The Neutral Alliance consists of: Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Karana, Prexus, Solusek Ro, The Tribunal, Veeshan.

I am now convinced.

[Dulu]

I like the idea of one unique class per faction.

Neutral gets Rangers, Good gets Paladins, evil gets SK.

[socialist]

If you give evil monopoly on SK and necro, they will have won the server from the start. How can anyone even doubt this? They already have the best races for literally every class except rogue.

[SamwiseRed]

If you give evil monopoly on SK and necro, they will have won the server from the start. How can anyone even doubt this?

ya nilly has a stranglehold on the server because of all their necros and sks! can u even name one outside botb?

[socialist]

I don't play on R99 anymore but those are two of the five best PvP classes. This is going to cause tons and tons of people to roll evil which is what will tip the balance regardless of their actual influence on the fights. As Nihilum proved, numbers make you win. If evil have monopoly on the best classes and races, they will have the numbers. It's not like this is some radical theory here, it has been proven quite emphatically in the past.

[Dulu]

I don't play on R99 anymore but those are two of the five best PvP classes. This is going to cause tons and tons of people to roll evil which is what will tip the balance regardless of their actual influence on the fights. As Nihilum proved, numbers make you win. If evil have monopoly on the best classes and races, they will have the numbers. It's not like this is some radical theory here, it has been proven quite emphatically in the past.

Alliance had more players than Horde, and Shamans were better than Paladins in PVP for all of classic WoW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja1j7xWpB3w


Hibernia had three of the best PvP classes in DAoC, and was the least played faction for almost all of it's history. Nightshade's with their extreme burst, Animists with their pet spam, and Eldritch's with their nukes + blinds... People just didn't like the fruity elves/fairies, and wanted to play the manly Mids and Albs. People play what they like.

[SamwiseRed]

I don't play on R99 anymore but those are two of the five best PvP classes. This is going to cause tons and tons of people to roll evil which is what will tip the balance regardless of their actual influence on the fights. As Nihilum proved, numbers make you win. If evil have monopoly on the best classes and races, they will have the numbers. It's not like this is some radical theory here, it has been proven quite emphatically in the past.

id take a druid/wiz/bard over any sk/necro

[Rec]

People need to make up their minds. There was another thread where people were crying that no one would be evil because SKs and Necros weren't the best in pvp.

[Aenor]

so much stupid in these posts

So much mad in these posts.

[Gustoo]

The ultimate solution to a teams server is to not have teams.

[Bazia]

so much stupid in these posts