Custom teams

[Lasher]

Dont use any teams previously used in everquest, make custom new ones. There was always one team that was more powerful and if you use those make ups it will create lopsided teams from the start. I think you need to use brand new custom teams for two reasons. I think teams needed better balance with pros and cons and also i think how teams will be should be held secret until day of release so that no really knows and it feels like somewhat of a new game on release day, an element of suprise. Not really knowing the pros and cons of each team until you play.


Also I think teams needs to mean teams. If you decide to play on a team then you cant do anything but attack the other team. no healing, buffing, porting, rezzing, trading.

Only way to trade with another team would be to drop it on the ground. No trading with teams makes it also harder to twink out a character on another team. So when you have tons of loot in your bank and you want to put it on another team twink it needs to be dropped on the ground. No plat will ever be able to be exchanged between teams

[Lowlife]

Aenor's revised city ruleset. +1

[Noselacri]

Anything that restricts classes would be retarded. I say they just make Team Blue, Team Red and Team Green. You pick your team at level 1 by turning in a thingy and that's that. Exp bonuses for the smaller teams if the ratio gets extreme, encouraging rerolls and new players joining the underdog instead of just crowding the dominant side.

There, done. Nothing that will get in the way of PvP combat or gameplay balance. Nobody picks their team based on class/race, which is what normally causes the initial imbalance before guild domination becomes a factor. It means that if one team does win the server, it's because they were actually better and not because they had the best PvP classes (hi SZ team evil).

[Lowlife]

Anything that restricts classes would be retarded. I say they just make Team Blue, Team Red and Team Green. You pick your team at level 1 by turning in a thingy and that's that. Exp bonuses for the smaller teams if the ratio gets extreme, encouraging rerolls and new players joining the underdog instead of just crowding the dominant side.

There, done. Nothing that will get in the way of PvP combat or gameplay balance. Nobody picks their team based on class/race, which is what normally causes the initial imbalance before guild domination becomes a factor. It means that if one team does win the server, it's because they were actually better and not because they had the best PvP classes (hi SZ team evil).

Disagree.

Evil: Iksar Monks, Ogre Warriors, Troll Shamen etc at the cost of no bards, druids, rangers, paladins

Neutral: Bards etc at the cost of no shamen, SKs, necros, paladins

Good: Shamen and Bards but weak ass races.

Otherwise, why roll anything but evil?

[Noselacri]

You didn't read my post at all.

[Lowlife]

You didn't read my post at all.

I didn't. Not a word. Plus your idea is gay.

[Noselacri]

For shame.

[SamwiseRed]

Disagree.

Evil: Iksar Monks, Ogre Warriors, Troll Shamen etc at the cost of no bards, druids, rangers, paladins

Neutral: Bards etc at the cost of no shamen, SKs, necros, paladins

Good: Shamen and Bards but weak ass races.

Otherwise, why roll anything but evil?

evil can have bards, newts can be pallies, ect. not sure you know sz teams hehe

[Lowlife]

evil can have bards, newts can be pallies, ect. not sure you know sz teams hehe

i hope you have realized by now that theyre not copying SZ exactly and that other team compositions are being examined by staff. My reference is to Aenor's ruleset, which is the only one we can confirm staff has discussed.

[Vexenu]

SZ teams work because the team restricted classes (SK, Necro, Druid, Paladin, Ranger) are not required core raiding classes. The only balance issue is giving Good and Neut teams a way to Summon Corpses, which SZ did with potions. You could also just make Summon Corpse a Paladin spell, which would accomplish the same thing.

[Noselacri]

There's still no real reason to restrict classes. What possible purpose would it serve?

[Rec]

It serves the purpose of breaking up the super leet people who want to play these other classes. You want them all on the same team again stick to ded99.

[Vexenu]

There's still no real reason to restrict classes. What possible purpose would it serve?

It adds flavor to the game, makes team choice more meaningful, and adheres to the game's lore (an important but undervalued consideration).

It's also classic.

And in practice it's just nice to have actual differences between the teams. Makes the server feel like more of a war rather than just a random assortment of people killing each other for no apparent reason.

The class differences result in tactical and strategic differences as well, which is most notable with the Evil team's lack of Druids. Without Druids, Evils must rely on Wizards for ports and Shamans for SoW. This makes them considerably less mobile than Goods and Neuts, who can get both from a Druid (especially since Druids, being one of the best classes on a PvP server, are everywhere). Meanwhile, Evils get large races and SKs to compensate, making them better in a straight-up fight but considerably less effective at hit and runs. There is a nice balance present despite the teams not being equal.

It's an interesting dynamic that's worth preserving.

[Fawqueue]

It adds flavor to the game, makes team choice more meaningful, and adheres to the game's lore (an important but undervalued consideration).

It's also classic.

And in practice it's just nice to have actual differences between the teams. Makes the server feel like more of a war rather than just a random assortment of people killing each other for no apparent reason.

The class differences result in tactical and strategic differences as well, which is most notable with the Evil team's lack of Druids. Without Druids, Evils must rely on Wizards for ports and Shamans for SoW. This makes them considerably less mobile than Goods and Neuts, who can get both from a Druid (especially since Druids, being one of the best classes on a PvP server, are everywhere). Meanwhile, Evils get large races and SKs to compensate, making them better in a straight-up fight but considerably less effective at hit and runs. There is a nice balance present despite the teams not being equal.

It's an interesting dynamic that's worth preserving.

This completely. One of the more interesting aspects of choosing to play in a competitive teams setting is balancing your advantages and disadvantages against both your competition and the game content. You need to have consequences to your choices or they aren't meaningful.

Some games do this through differences in weapon choices (like many shooters) or rock-paper-scissor ability distribution (like League of Legends). But a game where everything is identical across the board means my team decision was based on random selection and indifference.

Guild Wars 2 is a great example of how boring giving every team identical classes can be. The PvP was fun for about a month. I want to enjoy teams99 longer than that.

[Lowlife]

deny evil bards, thank me later.

[Sirken]

mostly a lot of really great posts/ideas in this thread, ill be lurking quietly

[Lowlife]

Evil faction starting cities

1. Grobb
2. Oggok
3. Neriak
4. Paineel
5. (Cabilis eventually, 3-6 months of Classic, 3-6 months of Kunark.)

Good faction starting cities.

1. Rivervale
2. Halas
3. Felwithe
4. Kelethin
5. Qeynos

Neutral Starting Cities

1. Surefall Glade
2. Kaladim
3. Erudin
4. Ak'Anon
5. Freeport

Neuts least appealing team initially due to lack of Shammies, so by giving them Freeport, Erudin, and Surefall you've allowed them default control over early important transportation choke points for balance purposes. All major docks/shipping areas including both side of Ocean of Tears (if not that entire zone as a result) as well as Erud's crossing would be under neutral control, giving them an additional level of attractiveness for players despite lacking Shm, as Evils lack Bards but will by default carry a robust population, whereas the Good team is the most balanced class-wise. Neuts will also, at the least, have the easiest time completing several Epics including Warrior.

No rallos bards, no weird deity barb shamen.

[Castigate]

Rather than no Rallos Bards, why not move Rallos to Neutral? Pretty sure it would give them access to both SK and some of the big guys, without actually removing anything aside from bards from Evil. To balance the gains you could either drop Karana or Tribunal to good which would kick Rangers/Druids, or Shamans off their team. If nothing else it seems like it would end up creating interesting dynamics.

For reference the original SZ teams as far as I've been able to find:
The Good Alliance consists of: Erollisi Marr, Mithaniel Marr, Rodcet Nife, Quellious, Tunare
The Evil Alliance consists of: Bertoxxulous, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Rallos Zek
The Neutral Alliance consists of: Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Karana, Prexus, Solusek Ro, The Tribunal, and Veeshan.

Maybe someone else could adapt it better, I really only suggest this because I'd like the teams to feel unique, but still manage to attract players.

[SamwiseRed]

trying to balance eq pvp is impossible

balancing teams just as impossible without making it a custom disgrace to the world of norrath. you are tampering with 14 year old lore. its like re writing the hobbit. its a sin and should be punished by death.

[Greegon]

trying to balance eq pvp is impossible

balancing teams just as impossible without making it a custom disgrace to the world of norrath. you are tampering with 14 year old lore. its like re writing the hobbit. its a sin and should be punished by death.

sam so damn wise

[Lowlife]

at the end of the day i think the previously quoted city based system is better

[runlvlzero]

I agree with the OP. They illustrate the many points I favor regarding somewhat trivial/silly changes that lead to deeper game play.

[Vexenu]

Here's the thing about trying to create a mix of custom teams: you probably can't come up with something better than what SZ had. When you start tinkering around making seemingly minor changes, you end up with much bigger impacts than you might initially realize. The SZ teams were not just pulled out of the developers' asses back in the day. They were based upon the experience of both RZ and VZ/TZ, and the expert understanding of the devs regarding class balance and raiding needs.

This is why you can't do something silly and deny an entire team access to Bards, or Shamans, or Monks and expect team balance, but you can get away with limiting SKs, Rangers, Necros, Paladins and Druids. When you factor in the necessity of certain classes for raiding and EQ's existing lore, it is simply very difficult to split up the races/classes into three teams better than SZ did.

Further, one of the best reasons to use classic SZ teams on the new Teams server is not just that we know their strengths, but their weaknesses as well. We have direct experience on the shortcomings of the SZ teams (Evil being OP, Good being weak) and can use that knowledge to correct the imbalance on Teams '99. Any sort of custom Teams ruleset would have unknown strengths and weaknesses since they would never have been put in practice before. Since it's impossible to design a perfect ruleset within the confines of classic EQ, all we can do is try to design the best ruleset.

This is why I think going with SZ teams is the best bet. They are proven and they are tested, both their pros and cons. And we can address the cons with some minor, elegant fixes like Evil team FFA PvP, stat bonuses to Good and Neut, and FV hammers.

And really, the fact that so many people are so vocal about clamoring for SZ rules should not go unnoticed. There's a reason you don't see nearly as many people championing RZ or TZ/VZ rules: because they simply weren't as good in comparison.

So there really is no need to try to reinvent the wheel with a custom teams ruleset. The Devs did the heavy lifting for us back in the day. The teams breakdown they came up with was SZ, and it's a very good one that can work well on Teams '99 with a few tweaks.

[SamwiseRed]

Here's the thing about trying to create a mix of custom teams: you probably can't come up with something better than what SZ had. When you start tinkering around making seemingly minor changes, you end up with much bigger impacts than you might initially realize. The SZ teams were not just pulled out of the developers' asses back in the day. They were based upon the experience of both RZ and VZ/TZ, and the expert understanding of the devs regarding class balance and raiding needs.

This is why you can't do something silly and deny an entire team access to Bards, or Shamans, or Monks and expect team balance, but you can get away with limiting SKs, Rangers, Necros, Paladins and Druids. When you factor in the necessity of certain classes for raiding and EQ's existing lore, it is simply very difficult to split up the races/classes into three teams better than SZ did.

Further, one of the best reasons to use classic SZ teams on the new Teams server is not just that we know their strengths, but their weaknesses as well. We have direct experience on the shortcomings of the SZ teams (Evil being OP, Good being weak) and can use that knowledge to correct the imbalance on Teams '99. Any sort of custom Teams ruleset would have unknown strengths and weaknesses since they would never have been put in practice before. Since it's impossible to design a perfect ruleset within the confines of classic EQ, all we can do is try to design the best ruleset.

This is why I think going with SZ teams is the best bet. They are proven and they are tested, both their pros and cons. And we can address the cons with some minor, elegant fixes like Evil team FFA PvP, stat bonuses to Good and Neut, and FV hammers.

And really, the fact that so many people are so vocal about clamoring for SZ rules should not go unnoticed. There's a reason you don't see nearly as many people championing RZ or TZ/VZ rules: because they simply weren't as good in comparison.

So there really is no need to try to reinvent the wheel with a custom teams ruleset. The Devs did the heavy lifting for us back in the day. The teams breakdown they came up with was SZ, and it's a very good one that can work well on Teams '99 with a few tweaks.

http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/images/GifGuide/clapping/citizen_cane.gif

[Castigate]

Did Neutral actually have Monks, or any FD class on SZ? Were the religions capable of Monk changed or something?

[Vexenu]

Yes, Human Monks could worship Veeshan on SZ, which gave the Neutral team access to them.

This was done specifically for balance reasons, since by default classic lore Human Monks are Agnostic/Quellious only.

[SamwiseRed]

monks could be veeshan

[SamwiseRed]

meh vex u good man, a little too good.

[Vexenu]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dQ5j26OXRu8/T2Z8ijj_IBI/AAAAAAAAA1g/0EBhVgyRbpQ/s1600/tom-cruise-sunglasses.gif

[Castigate]

Oh and now I find it, and it seems there were Mith Marr Shaman as well. Well now the whole thing just seems a lot better.

[Aenor]

It adds flavor to the game, makes team choice more meaningful, and adheres to the game's lore (an important but undervalued consideration).

Totally undervalued. My first char was a half elf druid from Surefall Glade and that zone will always be home to me in EQ. If there was ever an invasion, I would be there to defend it. It's this sense of place that I believe EQ delivers more than any other game, even after all these years. That's why I think the REP YO CITY server is a good idea... it encourages community.

[Aenor]

Here's the thing about trying to create a mix of custom teams: you probably can't come up with something better than what SZ had. When you start tinkering around making seemingly minor changes, you end up with much bigger impacts than you might initially realize. The SZ teams were not just pulled out of the developers' asses back in the day. They were based upon the experience of both RZ and VZ/TZ, and the expert understanding of the devs regarding class balance and raiding needs.

Why then was SZ such a failure compared to the Race War ruleset? I understand that a lot of hardcore SZ fanbois are on P99 but it doesn't change the fact that Race War was DRAMATICALLY more successful than Sullon Zek, even with its inherent flaws.

This is why you can't do something silly and deny an entire team access to Bards, or Shamans, or Monks

This has been addressed.

Further, one of the best reasons to use classic SZ teams on the new Teams server is not just that we know their strengths, but their weaknesses as well.

Precisely, we know that SZ teams fails to retain population to the degree that Race War did.

This is why I think going with SZ teams is the best bet. They are proven and they are tested, both their pros and cons.

SZ teams are tested and proven to be inferior to Race War teams in retaining population, which is the stated goal of P99's developers.

There's a reason you don't see nearly as many people championing RZ or TZ/VZ rules: because they simply weren't as good in comparison.

Care to venture an opinion on this, Sirken?

[Junkman]

yea i mean if they do it evil/good by diety yea bard can be evil

[Lowlife]

+1 for Rep yo city rules WITH class exclusion

[Ebony]

Why then was SZ such a failure compared to the Race War ruleset? I understand that a lot of hardcore SZ fanbois are on P99 but it doesn't change the fact that Race War was DRAMATICALLY more successful than Sullon Zek, even with its inherent flaws.

Precisely, we know that SZ teams fails to retain population to the degree that Race War did.

You are 100% right. Even with the Soft Coding problem which is HUGE, TZ & VZ totally killed SZ in popularity.


SZ teams are tested and proven to be inferior to Race War teams in retaining population, which is the stated goal of P99's developers.

Yes Devs, please don't make the Team split like SZ had it.

SZ was a total failure from the start because the diety system they used made the Teams EXTREMELY Unbalanced & most players figured that out quickly.

It was like a 2 team server where the "Good" Team was cut into 3rds. 2 of the 3rds being merged into Team Neut & the last 3rd being called Team Good. Good Team had ZERO Team only races or Cities while team evil had a 3 or 4 & I think neut had 1 or 2.

Having a Team only race & City is HUGE for any Team. With out a Team only race or City you have no home area for your Team & all your new players end up harassed by PKs from their own race in their own home city at lvl 1. Please DON'T make it like SZ where one Team had ZERO Team only Races & Cities like it was for Good Team which was already looked down at because people thought Evil was Best from a Race/Class point already.

Each Team needs the same number (or close to, if one Team ends up with 4 & the others 3 it's not the end of the world) of Team only races/cities.

Splitting the Teams by Race or City like Aenor has talked about before would work Really well in my humble opinion!

[Lowlife]

You are 100% right. Even with the Soft Coding problem which is HUGE, TZ & VZ totally killed SZ in popularity.




Yes Devs, please don't make the Team split like SZ had it.

SZ was a total failure from the start because the diety system they used made the Teams EXTREMELY Unbalanced & most players figured that out quickly.

It was like a 2 team server where the "Good" Team was cut into 3rds. 2 of the 3rds being merged into Team Neut & the last 3rd being called Team Good. Good Team had ZERO Team only races or Cities while team evil had a 3 or 4 & I think neut had 1 or 2.

Having a Team only race & City is HUGE for any Team. With out a Team only race or City you have no home area for your Team & all your new players end up harassed by PKs from their own race in their own home city at lvl 1. Please DON'T make it like SZ where one Team had ZERO Team only Races & Cities like it was for Good Team which was already looked down at because people thought Evil was Best from a Race/Class point already.

Each Team needs the same number (or close to, if one Team ends up with 4 & the others 3 it's not the end of the world) of Team only races/cities.

Splitting the Teams by Race or City like Aenor has talked about before would work Really well in my humble opinion!

quoted for troof

[Origin]

Racial teams proposal with a human twist. Designed for the purpose of having a lore-friendly and class equal distribution between the three teams. The three key classes (bard, shaman, monk) need to be accessible to all three teams if this server is to thrive in the long run.

Evil Team:
Dark Elf
Ogre
Troll
Iksar (with Kunark)

Neutral Team:
Barbarian
Dwarf
Erudite
Gnome

Good Team:
Half Elf
Halfling
High Elf
Wood Elf

Humans can be a part of ANY team based on their diety. So, a human bard can be evil, neutral or good if, for example, he/she worships Rallos Zek, Veeshan or Tunare, respectively.

The evil team gets fatties, necromancers, shadow knights and doesn't get paladins, druids or rangers (and start without monks).

The good team gets fairies, druids, paladins and doesn't get necromancers or shadow knights

The neutral team don't get paladins, druids or rangers (start with monks).

Here's the catch: In order for the good team to get shamans, Barbarian shamans need to be able to worship a good diety (since they can only worship The Tribunal, which is more neutral). If they could worship Mithaniel Marr or Erollisi Marr, or something similar, which has some lore relevance, they could be fit into the good team and make the good team complete and able to compete.

The Evil team will initially be a notch underpowered due to the fact that Iksar get released with Kunark. So the Evil team will be lacking monks all throughout Vanilla. Seeing as how the Evil team is generally the most attractive anyways, not having Iksar/monks in the short term will be a good test as to the balance of this kind of ruleset. However, keep in mind that this disadvantage will be offset by the 9,309,398 shadow knights that this team will have.

Slightly modified proposal i made before.

You retards saying that every team should get every class should just not play EQ at all.

[Vexenu]

It's disingenuous to say that SZ was less popular than the race war servers, because the server came out after both VZ and TZ, which obviously meant a huge chunk of the PvP playerbase had no interest in re-rolling from scratch on SZ. There's also the fact that SZ's hardcore ruleset (no level limit PvP, training, etc...) turned off many players.

But those things have nothing to do with how well SZ's deity-based team structure worked.

It's obvious that most of the people calling for a city-based team model never played any significant time on SZ, or else they would realize that SZ was a de facto city-based server. Each team had at least one city they considered a stronghold (Goods had Halas/Qeynos, Neutrals had Rivervale & Kaladim, Evils had Neriak, Cabilis, Grobb/Oggok & OT). The remaining cities were contested. Each team would cluster around its stronghold cities for protection while leveling as much as possible. It was very obvious when you went into "enemy territory", and people generally didn't do so unless they were specifically looking for PvP or were rolling with a full group to hit a dungeon.

And yes, the SZ ruleset was not perfect due to the imbalance between the Good and Evil teams, which is something I already addressed. I also wrote a giant thread that's been viewed almost 4k times specifically outlining very simple changes to correct this imbalance. As I said earlier, the fact that we know the weaknesses of the SZ system is not a bad thing. It's a good thing, because it means we know what to do to fix them. Using an untested ruleset is much more problematic in this regard because we won't know what problems will emerge from it until it's too late.

This server cannot afford to have a bad launch. We only get one chance, which is why it needs to be done with the right ruleset to encourage high population retention.

[Origin]

It's disingenuous to say that SZ was less popular than the race war servers, because the server came out after both VZ and TZ, which obviously meant a huge chunk of the PvP playerbase had no interest in re-rolling from scratch on SZ. There's also the fact that SZ's hardcore ruleset (no level limit PvP, training, etc...) turned off many players.

But those things have nothing to do with how well SZ's deity-based team structure worked.

It's obvious that most of the people calling for a city-based team model never played any significant time on SZ, or else they would realize that SZ was a de facto city-based server. Each team had at least one city they considered a stronghold (Goods had Halas/Qeynos, Neutrals had Rivervale & Kaladim, Evils had Neriak, Cabilis, Grobb/Oggok & OT). The remaining cities were contested. Each team would cluster around its stronghold cities for protection while leveling as much as possible. It was very obvious when you went into "enemy territory", and people generally didn't do so unless they were specifically looking for PvP or were rolling with a full group to hit a dungeon.

And yes, the SZ ruleset was not perfect due to the imbalance between the Good and Evil teams, which is something I already addressed. I also wrote a giant thread that's been viewed almost 4k times specifically outlining very simple changes to correct this imbalance. As I said earlier, the fact that we know the weaknesses of the SZ system is not a bad thing. It's a good thing, because it means we know what to do to fix them. Using an untested ruleset is much more problematic in this regard because we won't know what problems will emerge from it until it's too late.

This server cannot afford to have a bad launch. We only get one chance, which is why it needs to be done with the right ruleset to encourage high population retention.

Wisdom.

[Something'Witty]

Teams Green, Red and Blue, hardcoded and chosen at character creation. I know all you role players would HATE it, but it would be class / race balanced.

[Lowlife]

Teams Green, Red and Blue, hardcoded and chosen at character creation. I know all you role players would HATE it, but it would be class / race balanced.

fail.

[Rec]

green, red, and blue are not very exciting EQ pvp colors

[Something'Witty]

fail.

Why?

[Something'Witty]

green, red, and blue are not very exciting EQ pvp colors

The color model doesn't matter, only the number of tuples.

[SamwiseRed]

Wow I hope you aren't serious

[Vexenu]

Teams Green, Red and Blue, hardcoded and chosen at character creation. I know all you role players would HATE it, but it would be class / race balanced.

The Teams ruleset should not be decided based on what it best for existing Red players, but rather on what is best for the Teams server.

Given your earlier post voicing concerns about your family guild being split up in a merge, it's obvious you're speaking from a position of extreme self-interest.

If you want to make a serious suggestion, try setting aside your own glaringly obvious biases first. Here's an easy question to ask yourself to help you do that: "What ruleset would I think was best for Teams if I was never going to play on the server?"

Some other questions:

"What sort of ruleset would fit with the game's lore?"

"What rulesets have worked well in the past?"

"What ruleset has the most vocal supporters?"

"What ruleset would do the most do encourage high population retention?"

Answer the questions honestly and you will not only see why your suggestion is silly, but the correct choise for a ruleset will become more apparent.

[Ebony]

(Goods had Halas/Qeynos, Neutrals had Rivervale & Kaladim, Evils had Neriak, Cabilis, Grobb/Oggok & OT).

Thanks for helping to prove our point. Team evil had Neriak, Cabilis, Grobb, Oggok & Overthere. Most of them 100% to themselves.

On Team Good we only had Halas which we had to fight for & Team Neut seemed to have it better but not by much.

The crazy race/city advantage team evil had plus team evil being the only Team that had classes all to themselves & owning Kunark, is it any wonder 80% of the server played on evil team? :rolleyes:

Race or City Teams are FAR better then the sz disaster.

[SamwiseRed]

Custom teams doomed to fail. Project 1999, I'm here for classic not custom.

[Lowlife]

Custom teams doomed to fail. Project 1999, I'm here for classic not custom.

then play blue or red.

Sirken made a very valid point yesterday, he said that this isn't so much about recreation of a SOE PvP server, its more along the lines of "What would SOE have made if they gave a fuck about PvP?".

[SamwiseRed]

I've been fighting for a teams server longer than anyone. To see it ruined by Morans who don't have a clue what they are talking about makes me cringe. If u want balance eq is not for u. Go play wow or kick rocks

[big mouth chew]

teams: a pvp server that even scrubs can play

[SamwiseRed]

It's clear most of you didn't even play everquest back then let alone SZ. I played on all the pvp servers including discord. SZ is the best Ruleset period. If u think the Ruleset is to blame for everyone rolling evil u are an idiot. It didn't start out that wAy but sadly the player base was kinda like the one on red99. Everyone started rolling with the winning team. Only the player base can truely kill a teams server and there is nothing u can really do to stop it.

FFA is custom teams (guilds) if u want custom teams that are balanced then red99 is for u

[liveitup1216]

If SZ had been released with the other PvP servers and had the same no training/play nice policy back in the day, red99 would've been an SZ server from the start.

[Something'Witty]

The Teams ruleset should not be decided based on what it best for existing Red players, but rather on what is best for the Teams server.

Given your earlier post voicing concerns about your family guild being split up in a merge, it's obvious you're speaking from a position of extreme self-interest.
I suggested this from day one of the teams rule set discussion and honestly feel it is the only balanced rule set. Would it make the merger of two servers a lot easier? Yes, at least in my view, does the staff have any thoughts?


If you want to make a serious suggestion, try setting aside your own glaringly obvious biases first. Here's an easy question to ask yourself to help you do that:
I accept your forumquest challenge!


"What ruleset would I think was best for Teams if I was never going to play on the server?"
What I suggested! I played on VZ Kunark - GoD. I played on the merged PvP server for a bit (FFA). I have played on R99 for 8 months. I think FFA > Teams, but if it was going to create a teams rule set, it would be what I suggested (3 teams, chosen at chara creation). Give the race / class / religion restrictions built into EQ, it is the only way to have truly balanced teams.


"What sort of ruleset would fit with the game's lore?"
Don't care, not a role player, and I admitted that role players would HATE my suggestion.


"What rulesets have worked well in the past?"
Great question, when the PvP servers on live were merged, they were merged into a FFA rule set. I think that says a lot.


"What ruleset has the most vocal supporters?"
SZ prolly, but does that mean it is the best rule set?


"What ruleset would do the most do encourage high population retention?"
I don't think any PvP server will end up with a population higher than what R99 has right now, but I digress.


Answer the questions honestly and you will not only see why your suggestion is silly, but the correct choise for a ruleset will become more apparent.
Your forumquest challenge did not deliver~

[SamwiseRed]

Customs teams sounds like red99 but can only join 1 of 3 guilds

[Ebony]

If u think the Ruleset is to blame for everyone rolling evil u are an idiot.

We didn't say rule set, we said Team split. If you can't tell the Team Split was the number one thing that made 80% of the server roll evil, you are the idiot, not us.

[SamwiseRed]

Naw you are for sure the idiot :)

Confirmed

[tomato2]

teams: a pvp server that even scrubs can play

lol

[Vexenu]

Thanks for helping to prove our point. Team evil had Neriak, Cabilis, Grobb, Oggok & Overthere. Most of them 100% to themselves.

On Team Good we only had Halas which we had to fight for & Team Neut seemed to have it better but not by much.

The crazy race/city advantage team evil had plus team evil being the only Team that had classes all to themselves & owning Kunark, is it any wonder 80% of the server played on evil team? :rolleyes:

Race or City Teams are FAR better then the sz disaster.

Please read my thread about how to tweak the SZ rules. It addresses all these problems.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120312

Namely: stat bonuses to Good and Neutral team, FFA PvP on the Evil team, and FV hammers. Also a delayed launch of Kunark to deny Evils a safe haven from the get-go.

This is one of the most important points: we KNOW the weaknesses of the SZ rules. We know what went wrong, so we can fix it. The experiment was already run for us on Live, which is more than can be said for any suggested custom ruleset.

[Ebony]

FFA: a pvp server where even scrubs can win

Fixed :p

[Ebony]

everyone rolling evil u are an idiot.

We bring facts that make it obvious the evil team was Overpowered far beyond even the average random Team split would be. You just say your way or the highway and call everyone an idiot.

Sirken already said they have ZERO interest in making a SZ rules server. There's no reason to fight for the extremely bad team split from SZ when you're not getting the SZ rule set anyway. The SZ diety Team split would do nothing but hurt the Teams99 server & I think the Devs will be able to see that.

[Lowlife]

We bring facts that make it obvious the evil team was Overpowered far beyond even the average random Team split would be. You just say your way or the highway and call everyone an idiot.

Sirken already said they have ZERO interest in making a SZ rules server. There's no reason to fight for the extremely bad team split from SZ when you're not getting the SZ rule set anyway. The SZ diety Team split would do nothing but hurt the Teams99 server & I think the Devs will be able to see that.

This. Sam.. you're the only one who cries about anyone suggesting anything other than authentic SZ rules, despite the fact we're merely trying to make improvements to the problems with said SZ ruleset. Chill the fuck.

[Ebony]

Please read my thread about how to tweak the SZ rules. It addresses all these problems.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120312

Namely: stat bonuses to Good and Neutral team, FFA PvP on the Evil team, and FV hammers. Also a delayed launch of Kunark to deny Evils a safe haven from the get-go.

This is one of the most important points: we KNOW the weaknesses of the SZ rules. We know what went wrong, so we can fix it. The experiment was already run for us on Live, which is more than can be said for any suggested custom ruleset.

My fight isn't with the SZ rule set (Besides Training, that was very dumb lol), my fight is with the HORRIBLE diety Team Split. Sam wants an exact copy of SZ. If he wanted an exacted copy of SZ but without the training & a BETTER Team Split (Race or City or tweeking the Dieties of a few races), I'd agree with him.

I like a lot of what you say in your fix SZ thread. I'm not anti SZ, I'm just anti a couple extreme flaws SZ has. Your post about fixing SZ had some good ideas. :)

[Lowlife]

My main problem with SZ was the fact that Evil was badass, neutral was medicore, and good was shit, and their respective populations represented that. Evil had like every worth a fuck race/class combo, good has the least.

[Ebony]

My main problem with SZ was the fact that Evil was badass, neutral was medicore, and good was shit, and their respective populations represented that.

Yes, you are 100% correct... in a very blunt way lol :)

[Lowlife]

Yes, you are 100% correct... in a very blunt way lol :)

Good literally represented 11% of the server, hiding in Halas

[Chronoburn]

Everyone is assuming a 3 team setup as well. Has this been decided?

Not sure the population can sustain 3 teams.

[One Tin Soldier]

Just to toss a suggestion out there since there is all this haggling over the ruleset.

Since they are planning a PvP server merge anyway why not do it this way: Start the teams server with the stipulation that if the population craps out within the first year all the characters on it will be moved to Red99 and the teams server will be wiped, the ruleset changed and then restarted.

So if the ruleset they go with is fatally flawed in some way the understanding is already in place from day one that they will wipe and change it.

It's almost what they were planning to do anyway. Announcing it in this way would just give them an excuse to tinker with the ruleset all they want until they get it right. Or as right as possible.

This would also let them experiment with some of the wilder ideas out there with the understanding that it's all basically just test runs until something works out well.

[Sixsixsix]

This suggestion is similar to the "process oriented solution" thread I made. I think making everyone aware of wipe possibilities in the event of a fatal flaw is super important. Alternatively, I suggested an elongated test phase, but its really two sides of the same coin.

[liveitup1216]

SZ team disparity had 0 to do with race/class. The inverse could've happened too, and the people who didn't play SZ would be here saying evil team sucked without druid ports, extra trackers, and legit snares...

Frontal stun immunity on 1 race and shit regen pre50's on two others didn't break the server, stop being retarded.

[Vexenu]

SZ team disparity had 0 to do with race/class. The inverse could've happened too, and the people who didn't play SZ would be here saying evil team sucked without druid ports, extra trackers, and legit snares...

Frontal stun immunity on 1 race and shit regen pre50's on two others didn't break the server, stop being retarded.

Truth.

Evil's races are indisputably superior, but aren't nearly enough to explain Evil's domination of the server. The real reasons Evil dominated:

1) Bigger population - They simply had more players who chose to roll Evil, probably because of the superior racial stats. Note the difference: players rolled Evil for the superior racial stats, they didn't win because of them.

2) <Ruin>'s early PvE domination drew other endgame PvE oriented players to re-roll on Evil, giving Evil team the majority of the experienced raiders.

3) Kunark provided an entire continent of relatively uncontested leveling for the Evil team all the way to 60. Seeing the enormity of this advantage led many Newts and Goods to re-roll and join the Evil team.

4) Evil team's advantages snowballed over time and thus their only competition came from within the team, which meant a lot of same-team training between guilds.

Now look at how my suggest balanced changes address each of these three points in turn:

1) Increase the racial stats of characters on the Good and Neutral teams. This removes much of the incentive for people to roll Evil for superior starting stats.

2) Implement a Firiona Vie version of the OT hammer. This allows the Good and Neutral teams to mobilize as quickly as Evil for raids and PvP backup. Absolutely essential for getting hardcore endgame players on the light teams.

3) Delay release of Kunark at least 2 months after server launch. Deny the Evil team an entire continent to level up safely on until most of the server is 30+ and Good and Newts can start contesting Kunark right away.

4) And finally, make the Evil team FFA PvP. This not only helps to negate their naturally larger geographical zone control by opening them up to internal strife, but adds an intriguing dynamic to the team that provides both strengths and weaknesses that must be considered.

[SamwiseRed]

Ye again people against SZ didn't even play SZ. Kids trying to make this like wow, not surprised

[SamwiseRed]

Btw I was newt then rerolled good. I know exactly what I'm asking for. Next they'll want melees to have gate and battleground.

[liveitup1216]

Btw I was newt then rerolled good. I know exactly what I'm asking for. Next they'll want melees to have gate and battleground.

Lots of posts in here qq'ing how they wouldn't be able to compete without extra regen or higher base stats or necro/sk. The blue runs deep.

[Smedy]

Dont use any teams previously used in everquest, make custom new ones. There was always one team that was more powerful and if you use those make ups it will create lopsided teams from the start. I think you need to use brand new custom teams for two reasons. I think teams needed better balance with pros and cons and also i think how teams will be should be held secret until day of release so that no really knows and it feels like somewhat of a new game on release day, an element of suprise. Not really knowing the pros and cons of each team until you play.


Also I think teams needs to mean teams. If you decide to play on a team then you cant do anything but attack the other team. no healing, buffing, porting, rezzing, trading.

Only way to trade with another team would be to drop it on the ground. No trading with teams makes it also harder to twink out a character on another team. So when you have tons of loot in your bank and you want to put it on another team twink it needs to be dropped on the ground. No plat will ever be able to be exchanged between teams

cant do much but agree with everything you just said (knuckle tm)

i especially like the idea of not being able to even trade with the other team, makes up for some really interesting economics on gear coming from dungeons your team has a hard time entering.

[Barladore]

Truth.

Evil's races are indisputably superior, but aren't nearly enough to explain Evil's domination of the server. The real reasons Evil dominated:

1) Bigger population - They simply had more players who chose to roll Evil, probably because of the superior racial stats. Note the difference: players rolled Evil for the superior racial stats, they didn't win because of them.

2) <Ruin>'s early PvE domination drew other endgame PvE oriented players to re-roll on Evil, giving Evil team the majority of the experienced raiders.

3) Kunark provided an entire continent of relatively uncontested leveling for the Evil team all the way to 60. Seeing the enormity of this advantage led many Newts and Goods to re-roll and join the Evil team.

4) Evil team's advantages snowballed over time and thus their only competition came from within the team, which meant a lot of same-team training between guilds.

Now look at how my suggest balanced changes address each of these three points in turn:

1) Increase the racial stats of characters on the Good and Neutral teams. This removes much of the incentive for people to roll Evil for superior starting stats.

2) Implement a Firiona Vie version of the OT hammer. This allows the Good and Neutral teams to mobilize as quickly as Evil for raids and PvP backup. Absolutely essential for getting hardcore endgame players on the light teams.

3) Delay release of Kunark at least 2 months after server launch. Deny the Evil team an entire continent to level up safely on until most of the server is 30+ and Good and Newts can start contesting Kunark right away.

4) And finally, make the Evil team FFA PvP. This not only helps to negate their naturally larger geographical zone control by opening them up to internal strife, but adds an intriguing dynamic to the team that provides both strengths and weaknesses that must be considered.

Vexenu knows whats up.

[Tikku82]

Truth.

Evil's races are indisputably superior, but aren't nearly enough to explain Evil's domination of the server. The real reasons Evil dominated:

1) Bigger population - They simply had more players who chose to roll Evil, probably because of the superior racial stats. Note the difference: players rolled Evil for the superior racial stats, they didn't win because of them.

2) <Ruin>'s early PvE domination drew other endgame PvE oriented players to re-roll on Evil, giving Evil team the majority of the experienced raiders.

3) Kunark provided an entire continent of relatively uncontested leveling for the Evil team all the way to 60. Seeing the enormity of this advantage led many Newts and Goods to re-roll and join the Evil team.

4) Evil team's advantages snowballed over time and thus their only competition came from within the team, which meant a lot of same-team training between guilds.

Now look at how my suggest balanced changes address each of these three points in turn:

1) Increase the racial stats of characters on the Good and Neutral teams. This removes much of the incentive for people to roll Evil for superior starting stats.

2) Implement a Firiona Vie version of the OT hammer. This allows the Good and Neutral teams to mobilize as quickly as Evil for raids and PvP backup. Absolutely essential for getting hardcore endgame players on the light teams.

3) Delay release of Kunark at least 2 months after server launch. Deny the Evil team an entire continent to level up safely on until most of the server is 30+ and Good and Newts can start contesting Kunark right away.

4) And finally, make the Evil team FFA PvP. This not only helps to negate their naturally larger geographical zone control by opening them up to internal strife, but adds an intriguing dynamic to the team that provides both strengths and weaknesses that must be considered.

+1000

[SamwiseRed]

Vex makin too much sense for these forum trolls pras.

[liveitup1216]

Vex ruleset looks most legit. Vex>SZ>>>>>Blue99>Red99 on the PvP scale.

[Lowlife]

Vex makin too much sense for these forum trolls pras.

Hates anything not exactly like Sony's SZ rule set. Pras something not even remotely classic and further removed from classic that the ideas he denounces.

[Lowlife]

Giving Wood Elf Warriors 150 base STA isn't the solution.

[Chronoburn]

Truth.

Evil's races are indisputably superior, but aren't nearly enough to explain Evil's domination of the server. The real reasons Evil dominated:

1) Bigger population - They simply had more players who chose to roll Evil, probably because of the superior racial stats. Note the difference: players rolled Evil for the superior racial stats, they didn't win because of them.

2) <Ruin>'s early PvE domination drew other endgame PvE oriented players to re-roll on Evil, giving Evil team the majority of the experienced raiders.

3) Kunark provided an entire continent of relatively uncontested leveling for the Evil team all the way to 60. Seeing the enormity of this advantage led many Newts and Goods to re-roll and join the Evil team.

4) Evil team's advantages snowballed over time and thus their only competition came from within the team, which meant a lot of same-team training between guilds.

Now look at how my suggest balanced changes address each of these three points in turn:

1) Increase the racial stats of characters on the Good and Neutral teams. This removes much of the incentive for people to roll Evil for superior starting stats.

2) Implement a Firiona Vie version of the OT hammer. This allows the Good and Neutral teams to mobilize as quickly as Evil for raids and PvP backup. Absolutely essential for getting hardcore endgame players on the light teams.

3) Delay release of Kunark at least 2 months after server launch. Deny the Evil team an entire continent to level up safely on until most of the server is 30+ and Good and Newts can start contesting Kunark right away.

4) And finally, make the Evil team FFA PvP. This not only helps to negate their naturally larger geographical zone control by opening them up to internal strife, but adds an intriguing dynamic to the team that provides both strengths and weaknesses that must be considered.


Vex def. knows what's up and I think point 2 is what really set the evil zerg tide in motion but the server could have been different.

Within the first 3 months of the server, the newts lost 30-50% of its high level population. A guild by the name of <The Dark Coalition> was highly competitive with <Ruin> but the majority of them quit and moved on to DAoC when it released. Once they quit, <Ruin> literally had no high end competition and moved into Ntov/Sleeper farm mode.

On paper, it looks like evils are set up for victory and evidence from SZ supports this but we may not be having this conversation if <Ruin> was actually contested in the beginning.

Sadly, goodies were fucked from the get-go.

[runlvlzero]

Giving Wood Elf Warriors 150 base STA isn't the solution.

But it sure would make the ogres mad )

[Sixsixsix]

How will we deal with a similar situation then, if at all? How could we prevent the team lopsidedness if one side starts to roll?

[Lowlife]

Evil will never have a shortage of players even if denied bards. Look at how many fucking SK twinks are being rolled on Red atm. Its the good and neutral teams that need help.

Make neutral the only team with bards, rangers and druids but deny them monks and shamen, necros and SKs

give good barb shamen, dwarf paladins, human monks etc a well rounded selection of classes

[Chronoburn]

How will we deal with a similar situation then, if at all? How could we prevent the team lopsidedness if one side starts to roll?

I'm not sure there is a clear solution because there will always be a leading team but one could hope that competition is close enough to prevent lopsidedness.

The point I'm trying to get across is that evil team may not need any changes at all.

Assuming a SZ like rule set

[SamwiseRed]

anyone using population as an arguement is kinda dumb. SZ came out then Luclin. OFC the pop died, everyone left after manaburn and other bs luclin brought us. had SZ been around at launch, no doubt it would have been the biggest server.

[SamwiseRed]

posts from when SZ launched.

"Unlocked again

When I logged off after playing about an hour I saw the top ranked unanon people.

13 level 6 characters.

8 of them Iksars. 2 Dwarves, and a couple wood elves and one other person I think.

"Anyhow, it would appear the race is on. And the soloers are making a run for it. I saw 3 shamans, 2 monks, 2 bards, and a couple warriors I think.

I am semi guessing a lot because I was trying to squeeze my way through the 140 people in my zone. I heard Gfay was over 200.

Naturally, KSing is rampant as people fight over those wolf pelts. *shrug* oh well, what can you do."


230 people in Nek when I made my character btw. Was crazy."

There were around 350 people in Nektulos last night when I went back to get my spells after making 4. I'm not looking forward to returning home from work to find that everyone else is now level 15+ from staying up all night, heh

twas glorious my friends.

[Lowlife]

If you'd like more than 150 people maximum on teams raise your hand.

[SamwiseRed]

if they give us a date and good ruleset, i honestly think we can hit 1k players first day.

good ruleset will attract alot of people. a date (at least a month out) will allow us the necessary time to advertise.

[Lowlife]

the necessary time to advertise.

essential

[Vexenu]

Evil will never have a shortage of players even if denied bards. Look at how many fucking SK twinks are being rolled on Red atm. Its the good and neutral teams that need help.

Make neutral the only team with bards, rangers and druids but deny them monks and shamen, necros and SKs

give good barb shamen, dwarf paladins, human monks etc a well rounded selection of classes

So basically, you propose:

Evil team has no bards.
Neutral team has no feign death classes and no Shamans.
Good team has no bards.

So you fuck over the Good team, the weakest team, exactly like you do the Evil team by giving them no Bards. And the Neutral team has no buffs or pulling capability.

So you basically don't want any faction to be able to raid? Have you even thought this through? I don't think you have. I'll tell you what would happen under these rules: endgame guilds would all roll Neutral for Bards, then make Good or Evil sub-guilds to do their pulling with Monks and SKs, with Cleric and Shaman tag alongs to keep them alive. Depending on how much intra-team competition they got, they'd also PK their fellow Neutrals with their sub-guilds to cockblock them.

By restricting core raiding classes, you basically just necessitate cross-teaming, even on a hard-coded server. It would become a mess and turn the server into a joke very quickly.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that people haven't thought their the implications of their custom rulesets nearly as much as the EQ Devs did when devising the SZ deity-based teams, and this is why using a ruleset based on SZ is the best option by far for one major reason: it is a known entity. And being known, we know its weaknesses, and can correct them proactively with minor tweaks that are largely behind the scenes.

[Lowlife]

Have you even thought this through?

No. I'm just shitting things out on the board to foster conversation.

[SamwiseRed]

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that people haven't thought their the implications of their custom rulesets nearly as much as the EQ Devs did when devising the SZ deity-based teams, and this is why using a ruleset based on SZ is the best option by far for one major reason: it is a known entity. And being known, we know its weaknesses, and can correct them proactively with minor tweaks that are largely behind the scenes.

I hate to be rude but damn these guys are pissing me off with their custom (and retarded) ideas. My only hope is Nilbog at this point. I have faith he will keep it classic.

Either that or eventually they will come to the same conclusion Verant Devs did years ago.

[tomato2]

blabla

[Noselacri]

You can have plenty of "lore flavor" in race restrictions if you must have it. Making classes unavailable to certain teams is a recipe for an unbalanced server that will go the way of R99. Who the fuck is going to play on team ranger when evil has a monopoly on two of the top PvP classes? Shall we revisit how that went on SZ? And that was after the expansions that made ranger/paladin/druid decent classes. Confined to pre-AA territory, it'd be even worse.

People are talking as if SZ was a succesful, thriving server. It had literally the smallest playerbase in EQ and one team utterly dominated everything to the point where the other two practically didn't exist. Repeating the SZ ruleset would be so monumentally retarded that I'd have to consider the whole thing an elaborate troll attempt. It would be an act of emulating possibly the worst server structure in MMORPG history.

[Lowlife]

You can have plenty of "lore flavor" in race restrictions if you must have it. Making classes unavailable to certain teams is a recipe for an unbalanced server that will go the way of R99. Who the fuck is going to play on team ranger when evil has a monopoly on two of the top PvP classes? Shall we revisit how that went on SZ? And that was after the expansions that made ranger/paladin/druid decent classes. Confined to pre-AA territory, it'd be even worse.

People are talking as if SZ was a succesful, thriving server. It had literally the smallest playerbase in EQ and one team utterly dominated everything to the point where the other two practically didn't exist. Repeating the SZ ruleset would be so monumentally retarded that I'd have to consider the whole thing an elaborate troll attempt. It would be an act of emulating possibly the worst server structure in MMORPG history.

How would you, as a former SZ player, rebalance teams then?

[SamwiseRed]

You can have plenty of "lore flavor" in race restrictions if you must have it. Making classes unavailable to certain teams is a recipe for an unbalanced server that will go the way of R99. Who the fuck is going to play on team ranger when evil has a monopoly on two of the top PvP classes? Shall we revisit how that went on SZ? And that was after the expansions that made ranger/paladin/druid decent classes. Confined to pre-AA territory, it'd be even worse.

People are talking as if SZ was a succesful, thriving server. It had literally the smallest playerbase in EQ and one team utterly dominated everything to the point where the other two practically didn't exist. Repeating the SZ ruleset would be so monumentally retarded that I'd have to consider the whole thing an elaborate troll attempt. It would be an act of emulating possibly the worst server structure in MMORPG history.

look at the timeline of when sz was released. it started off huge as fuck. then luclin came out. the rest his history. DUH

[Versch]

How would you, as a former SZ player, rebalance teams then?

Team West Antonica - Erudin (w/Paineel), Halas, Qeynos(w/Surefall), Oggok?

Team East Antonica - Freeport, Rivervale, Grobb, Neriak, Oggok?

Team Faydwer/Kunark - Kaladim, Kelethin, Felwithe, Ak'Anon, Cabilis

Allow Human rangers to start in freeport and use the trainer in Kithicor as the GM and all teams have every class. This is no more ridiculous than some of the other suggestions.

[SamwiseRed]

halflings and ogres?
elves and iksars?

god damn u guys are trolling hard

[Retti_]

All I read was OP. Rest was the same 4 nerds circle jerking rule sets from live and argueing for sz that nobody cares about.


http://weknowgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/thumbs-up-computer-kid-gif.gif

[Versch]

Are you really worried about lore when yall roll around in global ooc yelling faggot over and over?

[SamwiseRed]

$ounds like u read more than ju$t the op

[Lowlife]

Are you really worried about lore when yall roll around in global ooc yelling faggot over and over?

homosexuals are stoned to death in norrath. except in neriak, where bisexuality is normal.

read the lore.

[liveitup1216]

How would you, as a former SZ player, rebalance teams then?

I'd balance teams by sending everyone copies of World of Warcraft.

[SamwiseRed]

I'd balance teams by sending everyone copies of World of Warcraft.

lol'd

[Rec]

as long as it was vanilla WoW

[Origin]

Are you really worried about lore when yall roll around in global ooc yelling faggot over and over?

qft and +1

[Something'Witty]

Your (Versch) forumquest challenge did not deliver~

No comment eh? Typical forumquester...

[Versch]

No comment eh? Typical forumquester...

I don't know what this is.

[Retti_]

$ounds like u read more than ju$t the op

Naw just scrolled and saw avatars and I know ur inclined to cry 4 sz

[SamwiseRed]

the only custom teams i could even imagine is something like they did in eq2 where there is good and evil and exiles. exiles being good and evils who have betrayed their alliance. basically making newt FFA but able to join good or evil at any time. way to custom imo. SZ clear winner here and classic.

[SamwiseRed]

meh explained that wrong, i guess if eq2 pvp was in place on t99 it would be sz team setup

good, newt, and evil but newt would be ffa and able to join one of the two opposing hard coded teams (good and evil)

[Lowlife]

meh explained that wrong, i guess if eq2 pvp was in place on t99 it would be sz team setup

good, newt, and evil but newt would be ffa and able to join one of the two opposing hard coded teams (good and evil)

sounds like all the girls wanna fuck neutral guys