Necro's and their current lameness

[forsales]

I am posting this on behalf of necros everywhere...

it is my understanding, that due to an issue with the ivandyr hoop, back in the day. that necros and lifetaps in general got nerfed hard core.

the most recent patch fixed these issues very nicely... on red... which im sure helps the 3 necros of there, but i want to help the 50+ on blue... making splurt, and lifesteal unresistible on red was a great start... share the love... it is unreasonable, that i can take my 60 necro to trak, and not hit him, to gore, sev, tal, or hey, anything on island 5 and higher in sky. cant touch spiroc lord or above...

please fix blue like you did red...

[Treats]

I am posting this on behalf of necros everywhere...

it is my understanding, that due to an issue with the ivandyr hoop, back in the day. that necros and lifetaps in general got nerfed hard core.

the most recent patch fixed these issues very nicely... on red... which im sure helps the 3 necros of there, but i want to help the 50+ on blue... making splurt, and lifesteal unresistible on red was a great start... share the love... it is unreasonable, that i can take my 60 necro to trak, and not hit him, to gore, sev, tal, or hey, anything on island 5 and higher in sky. cant touch spiroc lord or above...

please fix blue like you did red...

This doesn't have anything to do with Ivandyr's Hoop.

Lifetaps are not unresistable.

Trakanon MR 1000
Lifetap Resist check -200

[Hitpoint]

No, the guys is right. Lifetaps don't land the way they should on raid mobs. Necros cannot damage dragons at all, they should be able to.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48145&highlight=patch+Ivandyr%27s+Hoop

Ivandyr's Hoop
This item has caused an inbalance in the raid game, and as such we have made some changes. In addition to a global resist increase to all lifetap spells, Ivandyr's Hoop has had it's rarity slightly increased, it has had it's merchant value removed (it can not be sold or recharged to merchants), and it will be disabled in Veeshan's Peak. We will evaluate if further changes need to be made.

Edit: Ouch nevermind. Well, at some point in velious I think the spectre pet is immune to fear, so there's that to look forward to.

[nilbog]

This is era specific to what they should be. Lifetaps went from completely unresistable to a resist mod, which is correct.

Here's some reading.
http://web.archive.org/web/200101231906/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum8/HTML/000930.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200101271415/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum8/HTML/001495.html

[Potus]

Here's a list from 2002 of what lands and what doesn't land. I remember not being able to land shit on Trakanon and basically any Kunark/Velious era monster for a long time. I believe Verant addressed Necros not landing shit during the Late Velious/early Luclin era.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021221071046/http://necro.eqclasses.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9151

In general, Necros are insanely weak during the Kunark/Velious era. This was intended, as everyone cried about Necros being overpowered during classic, and Verant responded by making Necros complete garbage during the proceeding expansions. They of course went overboard, but this is Verant we're talking about. They're not very good at gameplay balance.

Only when dot stacking was implemented and the cap on how many spells could land on a mob was increased did things get better for Necromancers during raids. There were other changes as well -- nukes not having the skeleton illusion, pets being unfearable, etc etc etc.

[forsales]

ok read through those readings Nilbog, found this quote and comment.


quote:
Originally posted by Frontosa:
Lifetaps worked on cazic thule last time I tried....also bond worked fine
I havent tried dots do to the bug mentioned above so I cant comment on those.

I assume cazic is a uber mob?

hehe


No to be honest Cazik is wussy, so Innoruk are - they barely hit in mid 200s which nothing even for caster at his/her 50s. Lesser dragons like Nafagen and Vox also already long time dont counts as uver mobs. I am talking about Phara, Siverwing, Trakanon, Ixiblat (sp) and similar lvl mobs - but even they after SoV not uber they rather medium high - Velektor, Wuosy, named treant in PoG - those are uber - we have excatly 0% chance hit em with anything and this taking in account 100Khp+ for each mob

if we could hit cazic, inny, draco, and maestro, would still be an improvement.

and why did red server get lifetaps to be unresistant, but we dont? It is also stated that necro lifetaps are the second most unresistable spells in the game, behind dragon fire (which is the same as wizard lure line). so wizards can just hit everything, and number 2, necros get nothing? if this is so, (and i havent checked) i would assume mages and druids cant hit anything at all either.

every other class, its clear what you will be doing from level 15, all the way through the game. warriors swing weapons, druids buff and heal, mages summon pets and nuke. but necros dot and lifesteal, but in end game, we give others mana, and cast dmf ONLY. i dont mind casting dmf, but then just sitting on the sidelines doesnt make sense.

i may not fully understand the exact principle this server runs on as far as do whats classic, and or do what makes sense within the as close to classic as possible mind set. it seems that the server (which i have played on for nearly 2 years now) holds true to classic, unless they deem that something done in classic is bad? which makes sense. for example, fixing the rotting skeleton in TD, so you cant go from level 14-44 in under 6 hours... that makes sense to fix, although it is in no way classic. if i made a character on live i could go there right now, and do that (assuming i had a couple k of gold to turn in)

i feel that this is one of those cases, that the developers broke, and way over broke, there should be some middle ground. letting splurt hit an ubermob (as the forums you linked called them) its only going to land once, and if the raid is decided by 1 splurt, then thats funny. but lifetaps should be allowed (i feel i am ranting and have made my point so i am stopping)

[Alecta]

and why did red server get lifetaps to be unresistant, but we dont?

[PvP] A number of spells have been made unresistible, such as Rapture, the Winged Death line, the Lifetap line, and Splurt.

Perhaps my notes weren't terribly clear, but that patch note applies to PvP interactions only. PvE spell resists function the same way on R99 as they do on P99.

[forsales]

i figured the [PVP] was denoting the red server... not that act of PVP itself. but thanks for the clarifications.

[dali_lb]

I guess the point the dev's are trying to make is, they try to make P99 reflect certain periodic fixes that was done in EQ, wich means if its within the scope of P99 vanilla -> Velious they will change the way things work if it was changed in Original EQ during that period (1999-2002).

However there still is several mechanics in P99 that don't reflect Original EQ at all, not because they can't make it, but because the devs have another agenda than just making P99 reflect all design flaws that existed in EQ during those years. Surely some of these flaws was not good for the health of the game, but many smaller flaws and odd things wich either was just fun or gave players a small benefit have been pointed out to the devs, and they just totally ignore it, wich makes me go into
/rant on
Are P99 supposed to be "How Vanilla-Velious EQ was"
or just "How the devs feel EQ was supposed to be"
"We feel free to change how we think P99 should be"
Remember how you try to sell P99 ... "Classic EQ"
/rant off

[Tanthallas]

On live, atleast through to kunark which is relevant here, necro lifetaps were barely ever resisted by any mob. Cleric nukes land more on high end content than necro lifetaps at the moment on p99....

[dali_lb]

I really can't argue against it, because i did never play a necro during vanilla so havn't got any 1st hand experience, but what i do remember is, even they were grosly OP'ed at least during vanilla, Necroes were always (together with wuzards) the biggest whiners on the boards :p

[forsales]

so it just shows, i was under the impression when i started my now level 60 necro, i would be an effective character through all levels of the game, i now have put over 60 days of playtime into him, to find that all my efforts, seem to have been worthless.

if i had known that on high end raids my supposed unresistant tap spell, becomes useless, i likely would have picked a useful character, (rogue, wizard, some decent dps...)

if i understand this correctly, necros worked just fine, on live, people complained, they got nerfed, then necros complained, and got un-nerfed... why make us go through a decision to nerf us, just to un-nerf them later (being this is after classic, and we know its going to be undone. especially since this server is not only restarting from the start, but its releases are WAY slower than classic, so we will die of old age, or the server will be shut down before we get fixed...

[Arteker]

ey but we never got the real 49 uber pet spell...:mad:

[Susanbanthony]

If you think the only thing a 60 necro could/should be doing against a high-end raid mob is lifetap, you're doing it wrong. If lifetap is the end-all be-all for your life as a necro, you're doing it extremely wrong.

[Treats]

Cleric nukes land more on high end content than necro lifetaps at the moment on p99....

Clueless...

[Potus]

so it just shows, i was under the impression when i started my now level 60 necro, i would be an effective character through all levels of the game, i now have put over 60 days of playtime into him, to find that all my efforts, seem to have been worthless.

Wow I feel like I am in a time machine, I remember reading these sorts of messages every day for years on the necro boards.

Yes, necros suck during this era, sorry. Go look up Abashi's email/twitter and bitch at him for ruining your life.

[koros]

Wow I feel like I am in a time machine, I remember reading these sorts of messages every day for years on the necro boards.

Yes, necros suck during this era, sorry. Go look up Abashi's email/twitter and bitch at him for ruining your life.

This. At least you had the potential of years of knowledge. Also don't worry, your DPS is going to make/break a raid far less than you keeping clerics stacked with mana would.

[Potus]

This. At least you had the potential of years of knowledge. Also don't worry, your DPS is going to make/break a raid far less than you keeping clerics stacked with mana would.

Actually necros had the potential to do a dickload of damage, the problem was it was just one necro that could do it, and people were freaked out over a monster poofing from dot damage, which I never saw happen ever in the history of ever and is probably just some bullshit anecdotal myth.

[dali_lb]

The poofing was actually happening. If you follow some of the old posts. It was not just necroes. it was a build in feature of the DoT's to stop PL'ing. Just like all the BS with reduced effectiveness of DoT's when mob was chasing you, because people bish whined about Druids and Necroes being OP'ed not taking into any account how tedious and boring druid and necro solo life actually is. Hell even Ranja's were OP'ed at the start of EQ, but that was quickly fixed untill we hit PoP :p

[koros]

Actually necros had the potential to do a dickload of damage, the problem was it was just one necro that could do it, and people were freaked out over a monster poofing from dot damage, which I never saw happen ever in the history of ever and is probably just some bullshit anecdotal myth.

My quote made it seem like I was directing the entire post at you. I basically meant your claim was right and then was directing the rest at forsales.

[Hitpoint]

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010109.html

'Harmtouch' is now resisted as if it were a 'Lifetap' spell, meaning that it is all-or-nothing, and nearly unresistable with exception to encounters that are immune to magic or out of the acceptable level range. In addition, maximum damage for Harmtouch has been increased starting at 40th level.

Not sure if this is relevant or not. Found it while looking for something else and figured i'd post it. I don't know what acceptable level range is supposed to mean here. But it does say lifetap spells should be nearly unresistable.

[Tecmos Deception]

On an unrelated note, don't we have the "maximum damage for Harmtouch has been increased starting at 40th level" on here, just not the hard-to-resist nature?

[Nirgon]

Need to relax life taps on at least Cazic/Inny:

Source (http://web.archive.org/web/200101231906/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum8/HTML/000930.html)

Necromancers are awesome against Cazic and Inno. Our spells stick quite handily on them. Lifetaps especially. No resist, decent damage (ratio sucks, but hey, it also takes care of that annoying chaos flux damage).


(Hey something that makes the game easier/more forgiving in the bugs section!)

[tristantio]

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=341&source=Live

Look down near the 2002 timeline, it went from Resistadj set to 0 to -200 (what we have on p99 now).

To me, this might indicate that it used to be set to a straight unresistable up until 2002-09-04, at which point it was tuned to what we have now (a high neg resist modifier, but not straight unresistable).

[baalzy]

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=341&source=Live

Look down near the 2002 timeline, it went from Resistadj set to 0 to -200 (what we have on p99 now).

To me, this might indicate that it used to be set to a straight unresistable up until 2002-09-04, at which point it was tuned to what we have now (a high neg resist modifier, but not straight unresistable).

Velious puts in a change of resistances in general, allowing mobs to be immune to slow/mez ect.. regardless of their actual MR. However this was very-late Velious so it'll be a while Once that goes in Lifetaps become useful again on many raid targets. Until then, load up on stalking probes so you can lifetap eyes & get to mana-battery'ing.
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20011008.html


Several NPCs have had their resistances reduced. Each of them was examined carefully, and resistances changed as seemed appropriate. For some of these NPCs other things were changed as well to compensate for their increased susceptibility to spells, such as armor improvements or perhaps greater hit points, if needed for that NPC.
NPCs that were highly magic resistant in order to make them immune to certain spells can now be given specific immunity to those spells. This means that they can be made immune to critical spells, as intended, and still be generally less resistant to magic. Players will receive a message similar to the one that is already given for Mesmerization spells when they cast a spell on an NPC that it is specifically immune to.
IMPORTANT NOTE: It is very important to note that we have not made any NPCs immune to spells that they were not already immune to. Many NPCs that were previously immune to spells due to their high innate resistance to magic have had that resistance reduced and specific immunities added. So if you see an immunity message after attempting to cast a spell on an NPC that you hadn't seen such a message from before, understand that the NPC was already immune to that spell before due to high resistances, and the only difference is that it now has lower resistances in general and specific spell immunity (which is why you are seeing the message).

Gangrenous touch of Zum'uul was later added, which is a 720 point lifetap which goes off a -150 Disease resist check should allow necros to lifetap any raid target (either using Magic based or the Touch). However it doesn't look like this gets put in until the Chardok revamp.

Earliest reference I can find is from 2002 but a guy does state they got a scroll to drop pre-luclin while doing warrior epic:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=8470


This spell isn't supposed to drop from Zum'Uul near the king or the queen in Chardok ?

Just wondering as we got one when we were killing the queen for an epic war, but it was before Luclin release.

[koros]

Lifetaps were weird, I don't think anyone knows the exact mechanic of how it worked prior to the spell revamp.

My first character on EQ was a necromancer, and in summer 99 a group of us around 16-20 took down sand giants chaining taps while pets swarmed. So they didn't even obey level limit.

Additionally while fighting I'd definitely get partial resists... extremely rarely. Killing the EXG clockwork in sola (which is basically magic immune) I could land taps but also got full/partial resists often (I don't really recall the ratio).

They, or else many uber mob resists were changed at some point vs certain (raid) mobs, I believe due to concerns about necros being about to bind/tap rush naggy/vox.

Of course that was pre-kunark.

Regardless, they definitely weren't 100% unresistible.

[Nirgon]

Bump for drains working better