Sakuragi's Warrior Guide

[Splorf22]

Well evidentially I am overtrained, because I felt the need to write up my thoughts on the retardedly simple warrior class.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide

Curious if anyone has any feedback or flames or whatnot.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Under "Mathematics of Threat Generation"

L40 Warrior with a Short Sword of the Ykesha in the mainhand: 8+5 = 13 hate per swing
L40 Warrior with a Short Sword of the Ykesha in the mainhand: 8+0 = 8 hate per swing

Typo!

[quido]

Nice editorial

[Splorf22]

Fixin those typos!

[Thulack]

Heat potion gives CR not FR :)

[pharmakos]

should add Golem Metal Wand, Crystallized Pumice, Incarnadine Breastplate, Cobalt Bracer, Cobalt Boots, and Cobalt Vambraces to the list of useful clickies (even though Sakuragi can't use all that Cobalt =p)

oh, and that note about Blazing Bracer of Fennin Ro for long range pulls... warriors as a bow class can do the longest pulls in the game with the combination of a 150 range bow and 150 range arrows

edit -- oh and Polished Obsidian Great Axe is a really useful proc (Invoke Fear).... i've solo fear kited dark blues in Skyfire with it, and it allows for some fun duoing with a Druid.

[Lojik]

should add Golem Metal Wand, Crystallized Pumice, Incarnadine Breastplate, Cobalt Bracer, Cobalt Boots, and Cobalt Vambraces to the list of useful clickies (even though Sakuragi can't use all that Cobalt =p)

oh, and that note about Blazing Bracer of Fennin Ro for long range pulls... warriors as a bow class can do the longest pulls in the game with the combination of a 150 range bow and 150 range arrows

You mean...besides ranger?

[pharmakos]

You mean...besides ranger?

paladins and shadow knights could do the bow thing as well if they wanted to

would allow for mana free pulls with no cast time, and extra range

[Spitty]

Warriors aren't shamans.

It's true. And yes, it's plural. Shamen is just shorthand for shitty ramen, and nobody deserves that.

[planeofdreams]

Note bonuses:
Dwarf 100 90 190 Barrel Roll, +5MR, great stats for a small race
Human 85 75 160 Pornstache, Snack-like names

Everything checks out here.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Nice editorial

[Cyph]

Very nice, thank you for this. Perhaps it should go into the Class section?

[Snagglepuss]

Excellent piece! I always enjoy reading your guides Loraen.

[Rhambuk]

Well evidentially I am overtrained, because I felt the need to write up my thoughts on the retardedly simple warrior class.


Stopped reading after this, people that think warrior is simple should go play a paladin and leave real tanking to those in the know.

[Ele]

Well played

Blade of Carnage Blade of Strategy BLAME ELETHIA

[Exotics]

Awesome guide! Interesting read even as a Shaman. Thanks for the work you put into it.

[Ghost of White Ranger]

tl;dr - 1. farm diamonds 2. fellate TMO for rotting swords

[Elerion]

nm, I'm dumb

[Elements]

Well evidentially I am overtrained, because I felt the need to write up my thoughts on the retardedly simple warrior class.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide

Curious if anyone has any feedback or flames or whatnot.

Great guide. Couple comments:

-pretty sure Ykesha warclub procs at 37 not 40 unless its been changed in the last year. This may also apply to some of the other ykesha procs

-I'd add OT hammer, WC gate cap and Jboots to the useful clickies list as travel for a warrior (and any melee for that matter) can be a big issue. especially having the ability to gate out of dungeons like HS, seb, etc when you are leaving a group.

-Incarnadine BP could also be added for unlimited use self invis, as well as the cobalt pieces (self str buff on the boots in particular is easily obtainable and can be used frequently while levelling).

-If your so inclined you could also mention a warriors ability to sneak pull/split for races that have that ability


Thanks for the great guide.

[Bohab]

Thanks for the guide! Created a new warrior recently I am in the process of gearing...

As for 1-39 progression gear wise it doesn't sound like you suggest the horrible ratio weapons that proc... Do you more so suggest low delay weapons like jade mace and lammy with fbss for better aggro control than say dual obsidian shards and dex gear?

[Wotsirb401]

You could also mention the only real warriors are the ones with extra meat to actually take damage. #Ogreeverytime

[Ruenaros]

Pretty good guide, I wish it had been around when I was spending my starting points trying to remember after a decade of not playing EQ :p Although dex/procs currently on P99 are way more important than they were during classic live.

Also green scales are about 3-4x more rare here than in live it seems, no way the scales should be going for more than VP stuff. If supply/demand is causing that, something is broken.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Excellent guide and a great read!

[Wiery]

First, this is a very well written and easy to read guide. You've done a great job on it. In looking at the sentences below, which are from two sequential paragraphs, there seems to be a contradiction.

If you are being healed by a shaman or druid (or, god forbid, a paladin), AC is all that matters. More AC = greater efficiency.

So my recommendation is something like 1AC:3HP for raid tanking and something like 1AC:5HP for leveling, when it is more likely you'll be healed by a druid or shaman.

While I think it is really inconsequential, the latter sentence indicates that the ratio of AC to HP is greater for the raid scenario, while the target ratio is lower for shaman/druid healed groups. This can be misleading, as it follows the paragraph that states AC is all that matters for the shaman/druid healed groups.

Again, really well written guide as a whole. Thanks for posting it up.

[happyhappy]

I believe it's meant to be read as "1AC=3HP for raid tanking and something like 1AC=5HP for leveling"

Which would mean that a 10 ac item is worth the same as a 30hp item for raid tanking, as opposed to leveling where 10 ac would be worth 50hp.

[Nytch]

Saw nothing about Trochilic's Skean in your weapons category. I have never used one but thought most warriors were looking to grab one for aggro?

[Splorf22]

Fixed a few things:

Skean: I don't know the hate value for Clockwork Poison which contains both a stun and poison counter. I'm guessing its a bit more than the Silken whip but not hugely so.

Clickies: substantially upgraded that section thanks to Elements and Pharmakos

happy has the right idea about ac/hp and I edited the guide to make that more clear.

Added a section on positioning and soloing.

[Netherzul]

Very well written, thought-out & informative post. Your guide will shed some light on the Warrior class for those who choose to roll them as alts or as mains on Project 1999.

Perhaps you should consider editing the stuff about raiding (TMO) and make it a little less intimidating / harsh. Many new players to P99 come here with the intent to relive or experience old content. This may be a "the truth hurts situation", but with it re-worded, new players may give the server a chance and find out on their own how it all really works versus just saying screw it altogether.

[Splorf22]

Well, despite the popular misconception I have no problem with TMO. But I really do not like the current raid scene (variance). If you want to participate, you have to do a substantial amount of tracking, batphoning, camping your main out at various areas, and so on. It involves a lot of time and it is not, to me, a lot of fun.

Now suppose you roll an enchanter, level to 55 and decide that spending 10 hours a week hitting the track button or getting up at 3AM to slay pixels in a 15 year old game is not how you want to spend your life. You have options. You can join a casual guild and get your epic, sky, and hate gear, or farm any number of encounters and buy a IP/BCG/Hiero etc. So you have a decent amount of interesting content challenges and you can gear your toon to the point where, if you are decently skilled, there is no practical difference between you and a raiding enchanter.

Repeat this process as a warrior. There are some decent things you can do to earn money (like General V'ghera) but they are few and far between compared to an enchanter. You can still join a casual guild, but they can't help you much with your epic or any of the really important stuff. If your equipment looks like Ringed Mace x2/indicolite/RBB (better than quite a few 60 warriors) you're just substantially worse than a raiding warrior with the epic/shissar/cobalt/BotFW. You'll do 30% less damage, produce 20% less threat, have 15% less survivability, and so on. And all of this goes triple if you didn't decide to roll ogre.

In my opinion new players should roll something else unless the current P1999 raid scene appeals to them or they have some strong random attachment to the Warrior class. Paladins, Shadowknights, and Monks are all much cheaper to gear. All three of them have easy 41% haste belts; Paladins and Monks have a relatively easy epic. All three have relatively more interesting gameplay: Paladins/SKs with spells, monks with FD splits and pulling. All three can be effective from level 20.

It's not that I don't like my Iksar broodling; I play him whenever I can get away with it. There is just something cool about standing in front of a badass pixel dragon and not dying, feeling in control of the raid. It's like that scene in Hackers when they hijack the satellite. But I put in the hours to farm up my gear (what can I say, it gives me something to do), and I had an enchanter to do it with. And also the spore king was easy money back in the day.

[webrunner5]

Above post shows why there is very few Warriors around. Sadly they will be more needed when Velious comes out.

[citizen1080]

Nice guide my friend.

[Elements]

Well, despite the popular misconception I have no problem with TMO. But I really do not like the current raid scene (variance). If you want to participate, you have to do a substantial amount of tracking, batphoning, camping your main out at various areas, and so on. It involves a lot of time and it is not, to me, a lot of fun.

Now suppose you roll an enchanter, level to 55 and decide that spending 10 hours a week hitting the track button or getting up at 3AM to slay pixels in a 15 year old game is not how you want to spend your life. You have options. You can join a casual guild and get your epic, sky, and hate gear, or farm any number of encounters and buy a IP/BCG/Hiero etc. So you have a decent amount of interesting content challenges and you can gear your toon to the point where, if you are decently skilled, there is no practical difference between you and a raiding enchanter.

Repeat this process as a warrior. There are some decent things you can do to earn money (like General V'ghera) but they are few and far between compared to an enchanter. You can still join a casual guild, but they can't help you much with your epic or any of the really important stuff. If your equipment looks like Ringed Mace x2/indicolite/RBB (better than quite a few 60 warriors) you're just substantially worse than a raiding warrior with the epic/shissar/cobalt/BotFW. You'll do 30% less damage, produce 20% less threat, have 15% less survivability, and so on. And all of this goes triple if you didn't decide to roll ogre.

In my opinion new players should roll something else unless the current P1999 raid scene appeals to them or they have some strong random attachment to the Warrior class. Paladins, Shadowknights, and Monks are all much cheaper to gear. All three of them have easy 41% haste belts; Paladins and Monks have a relatively easy epic. All three have relatively more interesting gameplay: Paladins/SKs with spells, monks with FD splits and pulling. All three can be effective from level 20.

It's not that I don't like my Iksar broodling; I play him whenever I can get away with it. There is just something cool about standing in front of a badass pixel dragon and not dying, feeling in control of the raid. It's like that scene in Hackers when they hijack the satellite. But I put in the hours to farm up my gear (what can I say, it gives me something to do), and I had an enchanter to do it with. And also the spore king was easy money back in the day.

I agree compared to enchanters warriors ability to farm cash camps are few and far between but its not as bad as you make it sound. Camps like pained soul/rotting skelly for MQs, idol of the thorned, fbss among others provide some significant earning power to a soloing warrior. I personally enjoyed the challenge of pushing my warrior solo even though it would be easier to just roll a chanter/shaman to farm on (and in fact I did).

For casual guilds not being able to help with the warrior epic are you referring to the green scale bottleneck?

The tldr of the guide should read: if you are ok with not being quite as effective as the top geared veterans on the server without putting in substantial amounts of tracking/camping out time but are ok with still being an effective tank for raids and group content then enjoy rolling a warrior.

Im not saying your opinion is wrong Im just trying to provide another opinion for players considering rolling a warrior. They can be extremely fun and rewarding even without BiS gear and still get the job done.

[spoils]

Fixed a few things:

Skean: I don't know the hate value for Clockwork Poison which contains both a stun and poison counter. I'm guessing its a bit more than the Silken whip but not hugely so.

Clickies: substantially upgraded that section thanks to Elements and Pharmakos

happy has the right idea about ac/hp and I edited the guide to make that more clear.

Added a section on positioning and soloing.

I know it's only anecdotal, but having tried every proc weapon except VP/Epic/BotBDE...the skean is a fantastic aggro weapon...it procs more often (based on what i've seen) and pairs very well with an RMoY in mainhand...i suspect for people who wanna gear on the cheap, it will pair very well with a yak scimitar.

That being said, skean and yak scimitar can be acquired for about the same price as 1 sarnak warhammer. At least that's what I paid, hopefully people farming those items for people are still generous!

[Splorf22]

Im not saying your opinion is wrong Im just trying to provide another opinion for players considering rolling a warrior. They can be extremely fun and rewarding even without BiS gear and still get the job done.

Here is the thing about what you wrote: you'd be substantially more effective doing those things as a Shadowknight. Farming? SK wins easily: they can travel in dungeons, snare runners, and split camps. Grouping? I give the edge to the SK with their snap aggro unless the warrior is really well geared. Raiding? SKs are simply better for anything that's slowable. The rest of the raid can disable their brains and fire at will because the mob is not leaving the SK, period. The only encounters where a warrior has an unquestioned edge are the Spiroc Lord, the Bee Queen, and to some extent the King/Queen in Chardok (all unslowable).

Now for sure that doesn't mean that a warrior can't do those things, but the whole purpose of a guide is to provide the min-max perspective. And the min-max pespective on warriors is that you need the gear. Speaking for myself I want my toons to kick ass, and I just didn't feel my warrior was doing that until I got the toys.

[Dirkus]

I have a 40 half elf warrior that I only put 5pts in stam. Am I screwed?

[Tecmos Deception]

Above post shows why there is very few Warriors around. Sadly they will be more needed when Velious comes out.

Err...

Warriors are BY FAR the most common tank class. They are the second most common melee. 2-5 other classes can tank for a group when you're just doing XP/grindy stuff. 2-3 other classes can tank anything in the game short of the big bad dragons/gods. Even in Velious, it isn't like you need 5 warrior tanks in order to do a boss, right? Why is it you feel like there are so few warriors around now and that we will need more in Velious?

[Bill Tetley]

I have a 40 half elf warrior that I only put 5pts in stam. Am I screwed?

Mines a wood elf. WOOD ELF!

[Elements]

Here is the thing about what you wrote: you'd be substantially more effective doing those things as a Shadowknight. Farming? SK wins easily: they can travel in dungeons, snare runners, and split camps. Grouping? I give the edge to the SK with their snap aggro unless the warrior is really well geared. Raiding? SKs are simply better for anything that's slowable. The rest of the raid can disable their brains and fire at will because the mob is not leaving the SK, period. The only encounters where a warrior has an unquestioned edge are the Spiroc Lord, the Bee Queen, and to some extent the King/Queen in Chardok (all unslowable).

Now for sure that doesn't mean that a warrior can't do those things, but the whole purpose of a guide is to provide the min-max perspective. And the min-max pespective on warriors is that you need the gear. Speaking for myself I want my toons to kick ass, and I just didn't feel my warrior was doing that until I got the toys.

Fair enough I think your guide fulfils those objectives very well. I didnt realize it was purely a min/max guide. One other thing Im confused about is in the dps/hate per sec table: how does the dps for the scd/foz combo = 64 yet threat per sec only = 50 when damage = 1 hate?

[Tecmos Deception]

Melee damage doesn't equal hate. That's how :)

[Elements]

Melee damage doesn't equal hate. That's how :)

Ah so the line right below the table that states "damage is 1 hate per" is only refering to the procs?

[Tecmos Deception]

Ah so the line right below the table that states "damage is 1 hate per" is only refering to the procs?

Think so. Lor has been talking about the melee hate formula a lot in some other threads lately. Weapon damage plus damage bonus per swing, regardless of how much actual damage is dealt.

[Splorf22]

Ah so the line right below the table that states "damage is 1 hate per" is only refering to the procs?

Yes. Updated the guide to make that more clear.

In fact this is generally an issue for Wizards: they generate way more hate per damage. IIRC the Wizard Velious nukes have some sort of penalty there; otherwise Wizards would never be able to use them.

[pharmakos]

so splorf, when are you gonna start your SK? =p

[Splorf22]

Added some parses showing the difference between Paladins and Warriors.

[Arteker]

Kavhok
EQ Developer

Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
Rep Power: 0
Kavhok is on a distinguished road
AC functions the same way in all zones. Some old NPCs may have lower attack than new ones, but the formulas for combat do not change.

The AC formulas were changed a short while before PoP shipped. Perhaps that was confused as a content change in PoP. However, the Avatar of War does less damage to a warrior with 1800 AC than one with 1300 AC just the way that Bertox does. It doesn't matter that he's "old content" - his attack is still fairly high.

- Kavhok, SOE


i know my english sucks so doing this little thing, because i think u guys still dont know how worked AC in the period classic, kunark-velious -luclin.


will see if can find out the dummy explanation mrylo, the jerk of absor and co did in his day, dont think it will help because seems everyone ehre is lost on his own memorys and even i tend to find people still think ATK affects ur hit misses.

[Arteker]

Old 06-17-2004 #10
Kavhok
EQ Developer

Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
Rep Power: 0
Kavhok is on a distinguished road
The cap on AC in the Velious era wasn't a soft cap; it was a hard cap that had been there from day 1. After a certain point, which differed for each class, the benefit of more AC didn't just diminish - it dropped to nothing.

The change I referred to, just before PoP, changed that from a hard cap to a soft cap. You get a percentage of the amount over that soft cap. Shields increase both your total and your soft cap, making them more effective than any other item with equal AC. Your mitigation AAs, level, and class also affect the cap and the percentage return for AC over it.

Separate from this, there are diminishing returns if your AC is much greater than the NPC's attack. This is due to the nature of the formulas that produce the probability distributions that have been well documented on this board.

Does that help?

- Kavhok, SOE

[Arteker]

the first AC change was made in luclin its in patchnotes if u guys wanna dig.

This happened because the defensive aas at first didint worked with people under and beyond the standard cap.

there was a hugue debate surrounding it as people begin droping logs in wich the aas dont show any evidence of a upgrade in most tanking situations.

[Splorf22]

OK so I didn't actually share this but:

Sakuragi: hit 42% of the time, average of 95
Azzudnor: hit 46% of the time, average of 95
Pint: hit 50% of the time, average of 94 (one of the three was 94 and I can't remember but I think it was Pint)

So I'm guessing that the increased defense/parry/riposte etc skill caps for Warriors are what result in that lower hitrate. Presumably in Velious those numbers would be much closer.

The magelo shows Pint at about 20AC more the Sakuragi, which really isn't huge, but I would expect it to be maybe 5-10% and generate some mildly noticeable difference.

[Arteker]

OK so I didn't actually share this but:

Sakuragi: hit 42% of the time, average of 95
Azzudnor: hit 46% of the time, average of 95
Pint: hit 50% of the time, average of 94 (one of the three was 94 and I can't remember but I think it was Pint)

So I'm guessing that the increased defense/parry/riposte etc skill caps for Warriors are what result in that lower hitrate. Presumably in Velious those numbers would be much closer.

The magelo shows Pint at about 20AC more the Sakuragi, which really isn't huge, but I would expect it to be maybe 5-10% and generate some mildly noticeable difference.
i dont know what is the table devs here follow im not aswell a it guy good with maths.

but i think people memorys clouds exactly what ac did and how it worked. i mean back in the day . my rl brother, realy someone i should try to get you to talk wanted to test the shield ac theory in pop and the modifiers such shielding etc.

so we picked up and killed aow with 2 groups of potime elemental class people.

aow still Hitting as did with velious / luclin but the difference was not exactly the ac but the rather largue difference in hit points of the warrior ( with 10k+) the aow migthing multiple flurry attack was not longer as troublesome as it was in velious.

to make fun we then cleaned ntov and spawned vulak ring, there the AC of 2k + with the 1450ac of the velious gear made it clear. the lords and vulak did vastly mitigated dmg on him upon being hitten.


one clearly example is a classic npc with high AC code , sir lucan or the ssra nameds. where the players atk was not enough to make a dent in the ac of the mob thus making them harder to go down (someone who farmed vt and sra would notice how different mob ac was coded in both raid zones).

you are a enchanter loraen , did you notice or put in your parses ac / str atk debuffs moddifiers such cripple effects?.

[Vexenu]

So knowing what you know now, would you have rolled a Paladin to tank with? (Or maybe an SK?)

Is the extra utility and superior threat generation more valuable in 99% of situations than the Warrior's extra DPS and disciplines? It certainly seems like that's what the numbers are showing, which would support the accepted wisdom of hybrid tanks being better outside of raids. And it definitely seems like stuns, root, HP buffs, Disease/Poison/Magic Cures, Superior Heal, DA and 90% rez would be a lot more useful than some added DPS and tanking disciplines that are only rarely essential.

[Splorf22]

Well I think Sakuragi and Pint are very close here. I'm not going to count the fungi, but just subtracting out Sakuragi's iksar regeneration and 10% greater CH efficiency Pint's tanking advantage drops to 10%, which is about equivalent to Sakuragi's offensive advantage. As long as the cleric isn't out of mana, I'd rather have the offense. Pint's ability to heal/loh the enchanter probably makes it about equal. In a camp with lower level mobs (say the Disco) the equation changes but the result is probably about the same: taunt works more, but stuns become extremely useful.

The key variable here though is that Sakuragi has the best weapons in the game. Just check out my magelo vs Pint: he's saved over a million pp. If you swap his epic/shissar combo for a RMoY/Trochilic's Skean, then suddenly Pint is going to be much better. So if you have elite gear as a warrior you're roughly equivalent to a hybrid in XP groups (and much better for bosses). The problems are a) during your leveling process you won't have that gear and b) getting that gear requires either a lot of farming or a lot of batphoning. Again, I think warriors are a strong class. They are just very endgame oriented and rather 1-dimensional.

Would I do it again? Sakuragi has been the only really consistent tank for the A-Team over the past year, and he's extremely useful for minibosses like Ixi and General V'ghera as well. Plus I had the enchanter to farm up the pp needed to buy my gear. The biggest reason I would consider rolling monk/sk/paladin is they have somewhat more complicated gameplay where skill matters more than gear. At this point if I had to do it over again I think I'd go Monk, but maybe Velious will come out and Sakuragi will finally get some actual armor/be extremely useful with discs and I'll change my mind again.

[Dantragg]

Hi !

Really enjoyed your guide and thanks for writing. One thing I have noticed that seperates good warriors and grat warriors are how they target and pick up on mobs.

I would like to hear exactly how you target mobs while playing , it cant be just tab'ing.

Ogres cant see the mob half the time would love to hear their prespective.

Like when pulls go to shit , you get 3 mobs instead of two and do not have any crowd control.

Thanks,

Dantragg

[Peekae]

I generally tab target mobs and start disc early on big pulls while back pedaling around so that way my casters can root cc the mobs apart from each other. You can get a little aggro on each mob however try not to push more than 1 into summoning range.

If no root at all just try to tank all with evasive up. Focus 1 but try to proc atleast once on each mob however it is highly unlikely you won't have root as all healers get it.

+ Side note tab targeting won't target charm pets which is good

[Elements]

When does blade of strategy become off-hand wieldable?

[myriverse]

On live, it was Velious +10 months.

[Droog007]

Good read, thanks for your efforts.

Are 2 hand weapons at all viable for threat generation? I used a Throneblade of the Ykesha for a while with my ranger on live, and it always seemed like a threat MONSTER. This is pure 12 year old anecdote, but it felt like it procced waay more often than other weapons - if I read the guide correctly, proc chances are static across weapons?

Seems like a fat, slow 2hander with a proc should be win... how does the math bear that out?

edit:

...it may take a few repetitions to get the rogue out of his chemically induced Netflix trance.

This made me lol@work

[Droog007]

A valid (if poorly worded) question about 2h threat generation.

Maybe the 2h ratios just aren't high enough to compete, and/or the MH bonus is the same for 2h'ers (when does this change?).

I'm still curious where TBoY ranks among (or how far beneath) popular warrior weaponry in terms of threat potential.

[Peekae]

Problem with 2 handers is aggro consistency at the start of a pull IMO. If you miss once or twice that's a good amount of time gaining 0 aggro. Overall I just feel dual wielding is better in most group or trash killing situations.

That being said once you proc it won't matter too much. On harder hitting mobs ( raid targets using mallet clicks) a slow 2h or dagas + shield is actually quite nice.

Edit: overall threat throne blade isn't bad but something along the lines of rod of mourning would be better for consistent 2h threat.... Or jagged blade of war of course :P

[baalzy]

Maybe the 2h ratios just aren't high enough to compete, and/or the MH bonus is the same for 2h'ers (when does this change?).

I'm still curious where TBoY ranks among (or how far beneath) popular warrior weaponry in terms of threat potential.

Velious released December 2000, the 2handed change happened Oct 8th 2001. So 11 months after Veliious.

Looking at current weapons the warrior epic (in 2h mode) has the best ratio of any 2hander at 36/41.
The best ratio set of 1h weapons for a war would be sword of the shissar and razor fang of xygoz (both 14/23).

According to the link within this thread: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122513&highlight=two-handed+damage+bonus&page=3 the current damage bonus for 2handed weapons 50+ is level-7/3 so at lvl 60 the two-handed damage bonus would be 60-7/3 = 17.6, going to round down and call it 17.

1hand damage bonus (just for people who don't know already) is level - 25 / 3, so at 60 it is 60-25/3 = 11.66. (since its well established its 11 at 60 I know I can round down to 11).


As a warrior, your primary means of generating threat is by beating on your target monster. Every time you swing your weapon, hit or miss, you will generate WeaponDamage+DamageBonus aggro.

So for the best two-handed ratio ignoring procs you're looking at 36+17 = 53 threat per hit

Best one hander ignoring procs looking at 14+11=25 threat per hit on the main hand.

The lowest common denominator between the two delays (41 for the 2h and 23 for the 1h) is 943.

41 goes into 943, 23 times. (twohanded swings)
23 goes into 943, 41 times. (onehanded swings)

Threat equals # of swings * threat generation of weapon (base weap. damage+damage bonus)
Threat generated by the 2handed weapon = 23*53 = 1219
Threat generated by the 1handed weapon = 41*25 = 1025

This means to surpass the 2handed weapon in threat generation the offhand, doing 14 threat per swing, would need to swing 14 times while the main hand swings 41 times which means DW needs to activate 34% of the time.

This isn't even factoring in a second hand to proc double attack with, it's pretty clear that right now dual wielding is going to significantly beat out two handed weapons.

Post Velious the two-handed damage bonus becomes more complicated. It's the exact same for delays between 28 and 39. For delay 40-42 its 1 point higher. For delays 43 and 44 its 3 points higher. For delays 45+ its (Delay - 31)/3 higher (example, tantors tusk has 60 delay its damage bonus would be base+(delay -31)/3 = 17+(60-31)/3 = 26.6 rounded down to 26 bonus.

I'm getting rambly but in the above scenario you'd basically add 1 more threat per swing cause the warrior epic has 41 delay. Giving its total threat = 1242 which would mean the off-hand would need to swing 16 times before overtaking the two-handed weapon which means DW needs to activate 39% of the time.

I'm not going to compare velious era weapons but I just don't see it ever being advisable to tank with a two-hander as a dual wielding class if threat generation is your only concern.

Could be a whole different world for Pal/SK though.

[Metallikus]

you need to put in your twink paragraph that painbringer is the best twink weapon and it procs at lvl 1.

also, need to add in giant text somewhere that ogres are the best.

[Metallikus]

also when you parse warriors, you need to distinguish between ogre parses and everyone else.

ogres don't get bashed and kick stunned from the front so they don't lose .2 sec for each and overtime during a fight that adds up when take into consideration you miss your own kick/disarm/taunt opportunities and during the time you are stunned you do not mitigate as well as when you aren't stunned.

POSITIONING MOBS is also important for tanks: if you are constantly being bashed and kick stunned, you cant put the mob where you want, when you want to.

Also, you don't mention agility as much as you should, which increases the ability to mitigate more damage than most common folk imagine.

[Droog007]

A solid response for which I am thankful

That looks good on paper, and I'm not going to argue against it ... but I guess the reason I thought 2Hers had legs in the threat race is because they are often used when warriors are just wanting to max DPS (Staff of Battle gets a lot of use here, if I'm not mistaken).

So, given that DPS is similar (or even greater) while variance is greater (if you hit for max damage on every swing with a 2Her would it not vastly out-damage 100% accuracy/damage with 2 1Hers?), it just seems like the potential damage would be far larger.

And it's potential damage (even when you miss) that counts. Actual damage is just icing on the cake. You would just have to make up for the ~50ish% more procs (which is saying a lot, I realize).

[Splorf22]

The problem with 2H is that for some reason its melee threat is penalized by about 2/3. I have no idea way, and I posted a bug thread about it, and like every single one of my game mechanics bug threads it has been totally ignored by the developers. Do not use 2H as a warrior. http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88535

Metallikus I did the math on ogres on the wiki page, which suggests the difference ends up being a few %. That being said, I've never played an ogre warrior so <shrug>

[Spitty]

That being said, I've never played an ogre warrior so <shrug>

THEN HOW ARE YOU OVERTRAINED?!?!

You need to be...wait for it...OGRE TRAINED.

[ctechguy]

You are asking for feedback, so here it goes....

I stopped reading before I made it through the first section, "Word of Warning". Seeing paladins and raids discussed in detail in paragraph 1 was tough, and I was done by paragraph 3 or 4. I did briefly skim down through the rest of the page.

While it was clear you have put a lot of thought and effort into the "guide", it seemed very inaccessible to me as a novice (about certain topics), and by quick initial scan, kind of skimpy on the philosophy of warrior class choice, how to get started and the life of a lowbie to mid-level warrior.

I played live from 1999 to 2003-ish on Quellious, and was the guild leader of Magi Discordia. I never went past 35th level during my time in the game. And the time I spent on the game was devoted to our guild (recruiting, crafting and assisting with gear for our newer members), holding buffing and assistance events at different zones on occasion, farming steins of moggok (50+ times or so :P), and occasionally grouping with a small, select handful of friends.

True "raiding" was never part of my experience during the live days, nor was I ever very interested in discussing the finer points of certain game mechanics and other minutiae. I realize not everyone is like me, and that people's tastes vary accordingly.

Perhaps my perspective is in the minority these days, but if I was new to P99 and came to the page to learn about being a warrior, I would probably find another resource.

To the elite, the initiated and those in the know, I'm sure it's very useful. But to those who already raid, I'm going to guess they already have most of if not all of this information already.

That being said, this is a far greater effort to contribute than I have exercised during my short time here, 4 weeks or so. And it is clear you have a lot of knowledge and have placed a great deal of effort into this page, and care about it's quality and content, as you have asked for feedback.

My suggestions would be to consider reorganizing the flow of some of the information, and providing more detail and attention to getting started and surviving in the Classic world, as a warrior, and all of the options that come along with it.

During my live playing days, one of my closest friends and highest level player I knew was a warrior. He was a great brewer and smith, among many other things, and when I thought of him, I thought of master trade skills, cultural armor, and such.

Thanks for the opportunity to provide some feedback, best of luck with your endeavor!

[Elements]

I'd be interested to know if the evasion disc applied to a warrior while stunned. Basically any non-ogre warrior opens themselves up to a larger degree of RNG splat.

[Efwan]

You are asking for feedback, so here it goes....

I stopped reading before I made it through the first section, "Word of Warning". Seeing paladins and raids discussed in detail in paragraph 1 was tough, and I was done by paragraph 3 or 4. I did briefly skim down through the rest of the page.

While it was clear you have put a lot of thought and effort into the "guide", it seemed very inaccessible to me as a novice (about certain topics), and by quick initial scan, kind of skimpy on the philosophy of warrior class choice, how to get started and the life of a lowbie to mid-level warrior.

I played live from 1999 to 2003-ish on Quellious, and was the guild leader of Magi Discordia. I never went past 35th level during my time in the game. And the time I spent on the game was devoted to our guild (recruiting, crafting and assisting with gear for our newer members), holding buffing and assistance events at different zones on occasion, farming steins of moggok (50+ times or so :P), and occasionally grouping with a small, select handful of friends.

True "raiding" was never part of my experience during the live days, nor was I ever very interested in discussing the finer points of certain game mechanics and other minutiae. I realize not everyone is like me, and that people's tastes vary accordingly.

Perhaps my perspective is in the minority these days, but if I was new to P99 and came to the page to learn about being a warrior, I would probably find another resource.

To the elite, the initiated and those in the know, I'm sure it's very useful. But to those who already raid, I'm going to guess they already have most of if not all of this information already.

That being said, this is a far greater effort to contribute than I have exercised during my short time here, 4 weeks or so. And it is clear you have a lot of knowledge and have placed a great deal of effort into this page, and care about it's quality and content, as you have asked for feedback.

My suggestions would be to consider reorganizing the flow of some of the information, and providing more detail and attention to getting started and surviving in the Classic world, as a warrior, and all of the options that come along with it.

During my live playing days, one of my closest friends and highest level player I knew was a warrior. He was a great brewer and smith, among many other things, and when I thought of him, I thought of master trade skills, cultural armor, and such.

Thanks for the opportunity to provide some feedback, best of luck with your endeavor!

I'm sure Sakuragi will probably have more of a political answer to this feedback, but I'd like to kind of point out something from playing many warriors from 99-present. Warriors do not become real warriors until 40ish. To be honest classic warriors were shafted aggro skills until that level. The life of a low-mid level warrior can be tough, yes you will be able to take more damage than anyone, but it's up to your group to learn how to not draw aggro off of you. Good warriors can, however, basically teach dps and healers how to master this. For instance, I personally would tell my groups not to attack until told to do so (normally after I've done some hitting, 90-95%, depending on the mob) and the same went for the raids I tanked/led. Obviously raid mobs wouldn't go down 5% quickly, thus raid would attack at 98 or so, but back in the day taunt worked a bit differently than people see now, but I won't go into all that.

[DrKvothe]

The life of a low-mid level warrior can be tough, yes you will be able to take more damage than anyone, but it's up to your group to learn how to not draw aggro off of you. Good warriors can, however, basically teach dps and healers how to master this. For instance, I personally would tell my groups not to attack until told to do so (normally after I've done some hitting, 90-95%, depending on the mob)

That's 10% of mob hp done solely by you. During that 10%, you're taking 3-4x hits (mob's not slowed) and the mob's hp is dropping 3-4x slower than it would if dps were going nuts. So in that 10% hp you could take as much damage as you will for the next 90%. If mobs are cc'd before you engage, when cc breaks they'll go running right to the enchanter or shaman (if they're slowed). That's extra mana and hp spent scrambling to get things under control. SK and pally can grab and keep aggro on each mob much quicker. DPS and CC and debuffers can just go nuts almost immediately.

You could have mobs rooted, but if your rooter is a bit too low level or if a mob is unusually magic resistant, that costs a huge amount of mana to maintain. Maybe it'd be more fair if sk and pally spells had to actually land to do threat, but as it stands their method for getting and maintaining aggro is much more robust to the various situations leveling groups are going to find themselves in.

This isn't classic, where mobs took 4x as long to kill. Your lowbie leveling group might have multiple epics, and will at least have weapons from a 50+ dungeon. A group's willingness to keep an epic monk or rogue waiting is a lot lower here.

As a low 50s shaman, I really enjoy hybrid tanks. The exp cost sucks, but I bet a 58 or 59 warrior takes more exp (or at least comparable exp) from the group than a 52-53 SK/pally.

[Efwan]

That's 10% of mob hp done solely by you. During that 10%, you're taking 3-4x hits (mob's not slowed) and the mob's hp is dropping 3-4x slower than it would if dps were going nuts. So in that 10% hp you could take as much damage as you will for the next 90%. If mobs are cc'd before you engage, when cc breaks they'll go running right to the enchanter or shaman (if they're slowed). That's extra mana and hp spent scrambling to get things under control. SK and pally can grab and keep aggro on each mob much quicker. DPS and CC and debuffers can just go nuts almost immediately.

You could have mobs rooted, but if your rooter is a bit too low level or if a mob is unusually magic resistant, that costs a huge amount of mana to maintain. Maybe it'd be more fair if sk and pally spells had to actually land to do threat, but as it stands their method for getting and maintaining aggro is much more robust to the various situations leveling groups are going to find themselves in.

This isn't classic, where mobs took 4x as long to kill. Your lowbie leveling group might have multiple epics, and will at least have weapons from a 50+ dungeon. A group's willingness to keep an epic monk or rogue waiting is a lot lower here.

As a low 50s shaman, I really enjoy hybrid tanks. The exp cost sucks, but I bet a 58 or 59 warrior takes more exp (or at least comparable exp) from the group than a 52-53 SK/pally.

You're SK/Pallys grab aggro debate is worth little to none here, as people are looking at a Warrior guide. I would never argue warriors can hold their own aggro wise vs a pal/sk until their 50s, and even then a good sk/pal could still grab it if they really want it.

[DrKvothe]

I'm just saying there's a reason groups balk at being told to wait for 10% of a mob's hp. It doesn't sound like much, but it could extend kill times by a third if the warrior's dps is bad or the dps's dps is good.

[Efwan]

In 14 years of playing a warrior main, I've never had a group "balk" at having to wait like 10 seconds to assist on a mob. I also said 90-95% depending on the mob (this also depends on the war dps, or unlucky misses).

[Splorf22]

In 14 years of playing a warrior main, I've never had a group "balk" at having to wait like 10 seconds to assist on a mob. I also said 90-95% depending on the mob (this also depends on the war dps, or unlucky misses).

IMO it depends on how the cleric's mana pool looks.

[Spitty]

Who says there's a cleric?

Wait-to-assist is appropriate for hard targets where aggro is a major concern.

In my opinion and extensive, board-certified experience, waiting to engage on group mobs is silly and inefficient.

If your rogue or monk doesn't know how to manage their aggro properly, let their asses take a couple hits. They'll either figure it out, or you can take turns teabagging the corpse.

I habitually slow shit immediately, but I stand by the MT and make sure if/when I catch aggro, I'm not screwing things up. Couple rounds later I'm off top aggro and the mob's already at 60%. Efficiency.

[ctechguy]

I'm sure Sakuragi will probably have more of a political answer to this feedback, but I'd like to kind of point out something from playing many warriors from 99-present. Warriors do not become real warriors until 40ish. To be honest classic warriors were shafted aggro skills until that level. The life of a low-mid level warrior can be tough, yes you will be able to take more damage than anyone, but it's up to your group to learn how to not draw aggro off of you. Good warriors can, however, basically teach dps and healers how to master this. For instance, I personally would tell my groups not to attack until told to do so (normally after I've done some hitting, 90-95%, depending on the mob) and the same went for the raids I tanked/led. Obviously raid mobs wouldn't go down 5% quickly, thus raid would attack at 98 or so, but back in the day taunt worked a bit differently than people see now, but I won't go into all that.

I appreciate your reply. I've never played a Warrior, and I like the insight on aggro and the ability to take damage as a tank.

The OP has an excellent write up on the class, particularly in regards to technical details.

I hope to get a chance to eventually roll one.

[webrunner5]

I know it takes a DAMN good Warrior to do it but it is better if the Warrior is the puller in a group. They have agro to start with unless some dumb caster casts a spell on the mob. I know sometimes a healer has to heal no matter what on a pull.

But Warriors are made to be beat on from start to finish. That is their job. Makes a healers life heaven if that happens. I see a lot of Warriors on here having too good of weapons instead of sort of crap weapons that kind of hold agro. Killer DPS is NOT their job. Not till really high levels.

[pasi]

At low levels, the difference in damage intake between warriors and other DPS isn't significant enough to hold DPS until aggro. Sure, casters should wait a bit, but melee DPS should go nuts. You do not have complete heal available, so HP/mana per heal is the same throughout the group. The only difference is mitigation which isn't significant yet.

At high levels (50+), slowing the mob ASAP is most important factor. The slower will likely be tanking over a warrior, so someone taking aggro off the shaman/enchanter isn't a huge deal. A clothie will take less damage on a fully slowed mob than a warrior would on a unslowed mob. In these scenarios (virtually all exp mobs), it doesn't matter who is tanking a slowed mob in an exp group.

Holding DPS until aggro is useful for situations where pulling aggro is certain death. These situations don't come up much in your standard exp group. The gain of healing/mana efficiency on plate is not worth the sacrifice of DPS in an exp group.

[pharmakos]

If your rogue or monk doesn't know how to manage their aggro properly, let their asses take a couple hits. They'll either figure it out, or you can take turns teabagging the corpse.

sucks losing your rogue if there's no epic cleric around

Who says there's a cleric?

[Splorf22]

Somehow the entire A-Team is in this thread saying basically the most efficient path is usually not to have your entire group sitting there picking their noses while you gain some aggro.

[Origin]

Good write-up. Some really useful stuff in there. Enjoyed reading.

[theaetatus]

Waiting 10 seconds to engage on anything but raid mobs is pointless.

The warrior's job is to get as much threat as he can but with a warrior tank the dps just need to realise that watching their own aggro is also their own job.

[Spitty]

Gentlemen, I think we're in agreement here.

NO TEN PERCENT! NO HALF-MEASURES!

SUCCESS IN 2014!

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/452/401/452401467_640.jpg

[ctechguy]

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t233/AJManktelow/demov%202/funny-pictures-the-lawn-gnomes-have.jpg

[Swish]

Rogues have something called evade, and if it fails... they just move out of range while the warrior gets a few more swings in. Not hard. What's all this faggotry about rogues dying because warriors don't generate threat quick enough? :/

[jpetrick]

I know it takes a DAMN good Warrior to do it but it is better if the Warrior is the puller in a group. They have agro to start with unless some dumb caster casts a spell on the mob. I know sometimes a healer has to heal no matter what on a pull.


If you have a good monk and a good warrior, the monk will either be flopping aggro directly onto the tank or having the tank tag mobs.