Better farmer, enc, nec or mage?

[Nudalus]

Post your thoughts and more importantly why. Thanks.

[Pyrion]

Enchanter if you are ok with getting killed from time to time. Necromancer for a bit less options but a lot more survivability. Mage is not really great at farming, but it's easy mode and nice if you feel lazy.

[Tecmos Deception]

Enchanter if you are ok with getting killed from time to time. Necromancer for a bit less options but a lot more survivability. Mage is not really great at farming, but it's easy mode and nice if you feel lazy.

I agree with Pyrion's order of the classes (talking about level 60 here), but I think the "whys" are a bit off.

Chanters die, but they don't die any more often than any other class who is trying to do the same thing; they might even die less, all other things being equal. I'm also not convinced necros have more survivability than enchanters (working on leveling a necro now so I'll find out eventually!). Mages are basically seafury/hillgiant farmers, or maybe something like NG or whatever duo.

[filthyphil]

Necromancer for the following reasons:

CoS
IvU
Feign Death
DMF
You are not an elf.

You can do almost any camp a mage or enchanter can, including some that they cannot. You can reach these camps much easier via a CoS and your IvU line. You can FD bank anywhere in the world. You can bind in oasis and use DMF to quickly reach firepots and transport yourself to any town in 10 minutes.

[Tecmos Deception]

Necromancer for the following reasons:

CoS
IvU
Feign Death
DMF
You are not an elf.

You can do almost any camp a mage or enchanter can, including some that they cannot. You can reach these camps much easier via a CoS and your IvU line. You can FD bank anywhere in the world. You can bind in oasis and use DMF to quickly reach firepots and transport yourself to any town in 10 minutes.

This stuff sounds nice, but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.

CoS is convenient but doesn't really let you get around in a way that normal invis does not. Chanters have IVU too. Feign is cool but you can't exactly charge past swarms of level 45+ mobs and feign safely to avoid stuff that sees invis or IVU, but chanters can get past those mobs with lulls. DMF is just convenience, and chanters don't need to be elves. Chanters can bank anywhere in the world too, and they can do your little oasis bind+lev thing to get to pots with air elemental illusion or levitate or peg cloak.

What camp can a necro do that a chanter cannot do? I've never seen a necro solo anything in HS south or east, can't remember ever seeing a necro solo in seb outside of NG or crypt, nor do I think there are many/any of them farming nameds in hole or chardok or solb. Lguk and KC? Sure. But about the only people who CAN'T kill that stuff are rogues and warriors :p

[filthyphil]

CoS is instant click, enabling you to quickly reinvis after it drops without stopping. Also if you are quick enough you can stand up after you FD and click it right in front of a mob to reinvis & continue moving. It can also be used in combination with IVU to make quick passage through zones like karnor, lguk, kaesora, If you don't believe in the CoS come see it in action on red.

I'm not going to make a list of camps a chanter would struggle with as I have never played a chanter. But I know necro's have a higher dps, and are more efficient. Enabling them to break in and sustain a camp easier.

You can argue an enchanter or necromancer could essentially do almost anything equally as well, but if you put them against each other in a bid for the same camp, it is very obvious who is going to win IMO.

Post your thoughts and more importantly why. Thanks.



Also your original post in this thread didn't list a single reason why an enchanter would be a better choice. You simply said it was so, then began to try an discredit my supporting reasons. There is no right answer to this question, only oppinions.

[Splorf22]

Do you actually see Necromancers soloing the Crypt Tecmos?

[Tecmos Deception]

CoS is instant click, enabling you to quickly reinvis after it drops without stopping. Also if you are quick enough you can stand up after you FD and click it right in front of a mob to reinvis & continue moving. It can also be used in combination with IVU to make quick passage through zones like karnor, lguk, kaesora, If you don't believe in the CoS come see it in action on red.

I'm not going to make a list of camps a chanter would struggle with as I have never played a chanter. But I know necro's have a higher dps, and are more efficient. Enabling them to break in and sustain a camp easier.

You can argue an enchanter or necromancer could essentially do almost anything equally as well, but if you put them against each other in a bid for the same camp, it is very obvious who is going to win IMO.





Also your original post in this thread didn't list a single reason why an enchanter would be a better choice. You simply said it was so, then began to try an discredit my supporting reasons. There is no right answer to this question, only oppinions.

You're wrong ;)


Do you actually see Necromancers soloing the Crypt Tecmos?

No actually. I really should stop playing my necro legit and buy bard AE PL shenanigans for him so I can see what I can do with him starting at 55 like I did with Tecmos.

[Splorf22]

You can argue an enchanter or necromancer could essentially do almost anything equally as well, but if you put them against each other in a bid for the same camp, it is very obvious who is going to win IMO.

Have you ever killed a decently challenging mob solo on your necromancer? Something like HS South/East, Crypt, or Fire Giants.

Because it really does not sound from your post like you are speaking from experience. Tecmos and I are.

[Autotune]

Depends on what you're farming.

EDIT:

Also, some of these posts about enchanters being able to move around as easy or easier isn't exactly correct. You guys still have to worry about resists when throwing lulls, etc. I've seen plenty of enchanters die from that.

Enchanters can solo more difficult mobs easier than necromancers, to the point that it's pointless to do some of those mobs as a necro because the time and effort isn't worth the reward/s.

Necromancers are not as powerful as enchanters, but they do have more survivability.

P.S. I have done Crypt as a necro solo and it's just not worth it.

Both classes perform so much more efficient with a good partner that I found it pointless to farm big $$ camps solo.

[Tecmos Deception]

Man, I REALLY want to get my necro to 60 now. I think they have more potential than has been realized on p99 in terms of soloing for cash or fun. But I will not believe they are better at 60 for these things than chanters until I see it with my own eyes.

[Autotune]

Man, I REALLY want to get my necro to 60 now. I think they have more potential than has been realized on p99 in terms of soloing for cash or fun. But I will not believe they are better at 60 for these things than chanters until I see it with my own eyes.

You can do a great deal with a necromancer, however you need to realize that their charm isn't as reliable and they don't come with those nifty stuns enchanters have.

Summoning mobs will make you hate life as a necromancer, unless you have room to fear kite.

Oh, and the major thing... you can't slow mobs as a necromancer. That's a biggy.

[Nudalus]

Thanks for the replies thus far, the reason why I ask is I have played a necro on live, and I know how to fearkite, and aggrokite, charming is fun (doing this on my druid atm but charm breaks so @#$%ing much)

Chanter, I have never played and while they seem really interesting with all of their utility I am confused how they actually solo.

The debate rages on!

~Necros have freedom of movement, FD, harmshield which is fun.

~Chanters have slow, mez, charm.

[Tecmos Deception]

How tough of an NPC can you kill (without excessive effort or risk) with EoT and dots and such? I'm remembering how I did frenzy and lord at 50 in guk with my old necro, prolonging pet's life with life transfers (I didn't even know about stacking them or dispelling the recourse, lol) while dots and roots did the heavy lifting, and wondering how doing something similar to that would work with 51+ mobs.

No slow would blow for sure, I brought a necro buddy along to DS a few times before they changed invis pulls and his EoT got raped hard by the level 52-53 trash over there without slow, and still got beat to hell with slow.

I know their charms aren't as reliable because of no tash and no charisma bonus, but you CAN give pets as much -MR gear as tash gives if you are so inclined.

[Tecmos Deception]

Chanter, I have never played and while they seem really interesting with all of their utility I am confused how they actually solo..

Check out Loraen's enchanter guide for a description of how chanter solo works: http://wiki.project1999.com/Loraen%27s_Enchanter_Guide

And/or watch my videos in my sig or the saved videos on my stream (also in sig) to see it in action.

[Splorf22]

I think the necro's natural partner is the shaman, who can supply slow, MR, and regen. The necro can heal, dps, and fd split. Nec/Shm is probably a bit worse than Enc/Shm but not much.

Also IIRC Tecmos Necrious used to kill stuff in East with the pet. He would have to mez the target periodically tho.

[Autotune]

I think the necro's natural partner is the shaman, who can supply slow, MR, and regen. The necro can heal, dps, and fd split. Nec/Shm is probably a bit worse than Enc/Shm but not much.

Also IIRC Tecmos Necrious used to kill stuff in East with the pet. He would have to mez the target periodically tho.

The EoT pet isn't great by any means compared to a charmed pet, so just throwing it at a mob and just healing it won't really get you anywhere on important targets. It does well enough on trash mobs, but that's about it.

Depending on where you are and what mob/s you are tackling (do they cast, do they summon, etc) you will have to use different tactics if you plan to try and take them on using a pet.

I've duo'd with an enchanter a great deal (and cleric) and I can say it's much easier playing off each other's strengths and weaknesses than trying to solo.

[Freakish]

I can solo Magi Rokyl fairly easily as a necromancer. The trick is to have good resists, load him up with dots and joust his casts. I haven't tried Tranix because the guy is perma camped and I don't feel like sitting waiting for him.

Ease of farming:
ENC -> NEC -> MAG

Doing a lazy afk farm, like earring of essence?

NEC = MAG -> ENC? I enjoy feigning between 30 minute spawns and NEC really shines for that.

[Vexenu]

The Enchanter has access to a lot of powerful tools than the Necro doesn't, which makes all the difference. They get universal charms and lulls (Necro only gets undead versions), slow/haste (huge for making a weaker pet stand up against a tougher mob, necro only gets pet haste and no slow), AE stuns and mezzes (Necro has nothing like this) and a legit mez to lockdown adds/casters in tight spaces (Necro only gets a 3 tick, single target mez).

Both have a form of healing (Ench with runes, Necro with taps/transfers, pros and cons to both), both can IVU and invis by mobs, both have a form of wiping hate (memblur/FD). Both have high levels of mana regen (Necro in Lich, Ench with Clarity/ToT, although the Ench comes out ahead here).

Basically, the Enchanter is capable of much more if you know what you're doing. Loraen and Tecmos have proven this beyond a shadow of a doubt in the Solo Artist Challenge thread. It's simply an extremely powerful class in the hands of a good player due to the sheer amount of useful tools at its disposal (most importantly: universal charm, mez/stuns/lulls and slow/haste).

[pasi]

If you want to put effort into farming, enchanter. Really no contest here - necromancers can't reliably solo most of the big money camps, and shaman mobility/setup sucks too much to compete with enchanter. Lull is also more reliable mobility in Kunark than FD since most of the mobs requiring lull are going to be 40-50.

If you want to watch Netflix or play other games while you farm, Necromancer or Shaman.

Option 1 looks more appealing, but I wouldn't undervalue effortless farming.

[Autotune]

If you want to put effort into farming, enchanter. Really no contest here - necromancers can't reliably solo most of the big money camps, and shaman mobility/setup sucks too much to compete with enchanter. Lull is also more reliable mobility in Kunark than FD since most of the mobs requiring lull are going to be 40-50.

If you want to watch Netflix or play other games while you farm, Necromancer or Shaman.

Option 1 looks more appealing, but I wouldn't undervalue effortless farming.

This is pretty much it. If you don't like other people and want to farm some big $$ camps, enchanter is for you.

If you don't mind duos or trios, it really doesn't matter, but i'd say Necro is more fun to play than enchanter ;)

[Nudalus]

Thanks for the more responses, seems like I will be going enchanter because of me playing on red, having the mez/trash to be a chicken and get my ass out of dodge will be useful (c'mon I can be a coward sometimes right?)

Thanks again!

[Potus]

Dude if you're going on Red it's Enchanter for sure. Necros are not very good post 50 against most classes in pvp.

[Autotune]

Dude if you're going on Red it's Enchanter for sure. Necros are not very good post 50 against most classes in pvp.

Yeah, he should have said this was for red to begin with.

[Nudalus]

Yeah, he should have said this was for red to begin with.

Get the most honest opinions first, everybody was backing enchanter BEFORE I said red, now AFTER that being said it just confirms it :)

[Splorf22]

I like the necromancer class and think they are hugely underrated in groups and duos. You can charm for fantastic dps in most dungeons, although in Sebilis it's a bit more annoying. FD will save you from most wipes, and with a few EEs you can save your group too. You can pull pretty well with snare/fd/cos, or even have someone else tag. You can main heal a group once you hit 44 which is pretty overpowered. You have fantastic mana regeneration, especially if you have the VP staff, and your dots are great in small groups or on the hardest fights, which last the longest. You can heal yourself with taps and have both invis and ivu, the only class to get both other than enchanters.

But then you compare to the enchanter. Clarity/haste alone will improve a group's efficiency by 50%. Resist magic is great as well (especially on Red). Slow and tash are just so important for high-level fights; 50+ mobs do too much damage and have too many hitpoints. There are undead in many zones, but then there are no undead in many zones as well, and with high charisma both charm and lull seem substantially better on an Enchanter. You can heal yourself with Rune and Bedlam. And solo wise, enchanters do much better against summoning mobs with AE mez. And you can get out of tricky spots with the WC cap.

So it feels to me that while both toolboxes are full of interesting toys, the enchanter's somehow fit together better and more frequently.

[Slytherin]

Dude if you're going on Red it's Enchanter for sure. Necros are not very good post 50 against most classes in pvp.

You think Enchanters are better?

They have a much weaker pet and charmed pets can be dispelled.

Mez is currently level restricted and is negated by crimson pots. Almost all of their spells are MR which everyone stacks.

[Autotune]

Get the most honest opinions first, everybody was backing enchanter BEFORE I said red, now AFTER that being said it just confirms it :)

Does it?

Red has many more factors that one has to consider. If you want advice on what class to play while having to worry about pvp factors, you should probably try to discuss this with people who play on Red.

[filthyphil]

Every encounter I had on red with an enchanter went like this, fear their charm, bond of death, ignite bones, watch them panic. As weak as a necro is on red, I always had a means of escape. You have high survivability which goes along way when you are not just talking about PvE.

A mezz or lull does not go far when you are being engaged by another player, you can't stop to CC the group of mobs you are about to run through with someone hot on your heels. But you can run through FD, and COS.

Training is also a huge part of red, and just another reason the necro will outlast the enchanter in any given zone on red.

[Splorf22]

I don't think enchanters are very good in 1-on-1 PVP, and they match up particularly poorly against a necromancer. Without charm enchanters really are a support class. In group PVP the enchanter is going to be a lot more effective chaining pillage enchantment, tash, and mana drain.

[pasi]

Like most casters in PvP, enchanters are great if you get the jump on someone and are weak if you don't get the jump on someone. Sicking a properly buff-stacked DW'n hasted pet on someone who zones in while you Chaotic Feedback can work, but yeah - if a decent player gets the jump on you - you're pretty fucked. It takes a bit of prep work to make sure charm is buried deep.

I'll also say if you're playing red, I'd go either Druid, Wizard, or Mage. Ok at farming, but much better at PvP.

[Potus]

You think Enchanters are better?

They have a much weaker pet and charmed pets can be dispelled.

Mez is currently level restricted and is negated by crimson pots. Almost all of their spells are MR which everyone stacks.

In general, yes. Without this getting into a huge flame war involving anecdotal evidence and theorycrafting, Necros are too plagued by bugs and bad gameplay design post-50 to be really recommended on a pvp server.

[Velerin]

I'm probably sidetracking this thread but I've heard a lot of people saying mages are good in pvp here and I was wondering how? I haven't played red here but 99% of my gameplay back in the day when I played was on Vallon Zek. It was so easy to immobilize the pet (root/fear/snare) and then a mage was so easy to kill with no escape other than gate. No shadowstep, no rune/manaskin. And even worse most pvp always happened at zonelines and that = mage with no pet.

[pasi]

I'm probably sidetracking this thread but I've heard a lot of people saying mages are good in pvp here and I was wondering how? I haven't played red here but 99% of my gameplay back in the day when I played was on Vallon Zek. It was so easy to immobilize the pet (root/fear/snare) and then a mage was so easy to kill with no escape other than gate. No shadowstep, no rune/manaskin. And even worse most pvp always happened at zonelines and that = mage with no pet.

NPC vs PC resists are off here where level is less of a factor than it was on live. Green/Light Blue NPCs can land spells on you with relative ease. Consequently, Earth Pet root lands (landed?) very well.

Furthermore, elemental nukes also land better than live (IMO, a good thing) so resist mods aren't nearly as big of a deal. Lastly, AC might not be properly functioning which increases pet damage.

[Velerin]

Cool, I see. Makes sense. I've always loved mages (what I play here) but gave up on them back in the day on VZ and switched to a wizard.

[Melbane]

The cool thing about a Necro is at 49 you can solo the Frenzy camp without charming. I'm not sure I'd want to try that with an Enchanter. FBSS is pretty good money and you could stop leveling right there and just farm the Frenzy and Sentinel for cash. At 60 though, I'm fairly certain that the control and versatility an Enchanter has trumps a Necro's. The only problem with the enchanter is doing it smart, and safely. It can be very dangerous charming, giving 2 weapons to a mob and hasting it heh.

[Tecmos Deception]

Chanter could do frenzy at 49 without charm also. Riskier because of no feign if you have bad luck breaking the spawn with lulls, but not very risky. Animation is pathetic, but he will tank a slowed (and maybe crippled and dotted and sometimes stunned) frenzied ghoul as well as an invoke death summon with necro heals.

Also, a level 50 dualwielding hasted pet is, yeah, definitely dangerous. But that's overkill to kill most nameds in the game. Just hasting a pet without giving him a second weapon does the job. Or using a lower level pet. You might get an extra charm break in a fight because it takes longer for the named to die, but when charm DOES break at least you will have a much easier time getting things back under control.

[Melbane]

I wouldn't want to solo the frenzy at 49 with a chanter not using charm. Seems very VERY risky. But, maybe I'm just a terrible player. *shrug*

[Formal]

What about from a pure plat farming perspective? Is necro better at farming platinum and items to vendor?

[Splorf22]

I wouldn't want to solo the frenzy at 49 with a chanter not using charm. Seems very VERY risky. But, maybe I'm just a terrible player. *shrug*

How is it more risky to do it without charm? I would think the animation would be able to handle one if it's hasted/weaponized and the target is slowed/dotted. Maybe you have to throw a rune/nuke/stun here and there. Worst case you root and resummon another animation.

The risky part would be splitting the camp with lull. Given the level of the mobs you should be able to AOE mez them on a critical resist; what would suck is mezzing yourself due to the nonclassic PVP resist idiocy they implemented for Red. Thankfully that goes away at 55.

What about from a pure plat farming perspective? Is necro better at farming platinum and items to vendor?

I don't really see the difference here; you can always sell your items. Anyway I would guess no. For example if the seafury island wasn't a den of evil I'm quite sure I could solo them in huge groups by rooting them all on top of one another and reverse kiting (charm one, send it in to a pack of 5+, root them all, break/kill your pet, charm another one in the pack etc).

[Formal]

I know Enchanters can solo tough things/high priced item drops, but what if no one wants the items? I'm still trying to figure out the best way for me to make some platinum later on. The plat that people use to buy fungis and similar items on red had to come from somewhere. I'm only level 18 and I do enjoy Enchanter so maybe I should switch. At least until I hit 18 on Enchanter and see which I like more. Thanks for the response Loraen.

[Tecmos Deception]

I know Enchanters can solo tough things/high priced item drops, but what if no one wants the items? I'm still trying to figure out the best way for me to make some platinum later on. The plat that people use to buy fungis and similar items on red had to come from somewhere. I'm only level 18 and I do enjoy Enchanter so maybe I should switch. At least until I hit 18 on Enchanter and see which I like more. Thanks for the response Loraen.

Then enchanters can go farm a different item. Remember, they can basically farm any item in the game solo. That's why everyone is saying they are "better" at farming overall.

Necros are solid farmers also. They have a wide variety of things they can do to make money solo. The variety just isn't as wide as it is for an enchanter, even though a necro may be better at the "lazy" kinds of farming like droga or frenzy or something because they can do it more quickly than a non-charming chanter can.

[Rhun]

From all my years of experience with all those classes I can safely say that enchanter has the most potential, but is also the most risky to play. You screw something up or have bad luck with resists or durations and it will bite you in the ass instantly. The enchanter can be the most satisfying class to solo, but it for sure can also be the most frustrating one. Especially on this server with the resists being screwed up.

[-Catherin-]

Chanters can do more than necros, but have a more steep and unforgiving learning curve. Necros are vice versa

[Autotune]

Chanters can do more than necros, but have a more steep and unforgiving learning curve. Necros are vice versa

This isn't exactly true.

Both have a hell of a learning curve when it comes to soloing for crazy $$. Necromancers just have better "Oh shit" buttons.

[JayN]

ench's charm is crap now, unless a mob is malo'd and tash'd even with max cha it will break very fast.

Necros are far superior farmers for many reasons, self evac is a big part, FD

[Tecmos Deception]

ench's charm is crap now, unless a mob is malo'd and tash'd even with max cha it will break very fast.

Lol.

I can't tell if Jayn is dumb, is bad, is trolling, or perhaps has an enchanter main and is trying to scare everyone else away from the class/trying to win GM buffs like this is WoW.

[Splorf22]

Necromancers just have better "Oh shit" buttons.

Which is why enchanters have a higher learning curve. Although really the WC cap helps a lot there.

[Tecmos Deception]

Let this thread die, omg. Otherwise I'm gonna end up trying to level my necro again, and I don't have time for that!

[Tenlaar]

Now do mage vs. shaman.

GO!

[JayN]

shaman > all unfortunately they are waaay op atm

[Autotune]

Which is why enchanters have a higher learning curve. Although really the WC cap helps a lot there.

Being able to escape easily doesn't lessen a learning curve around taking out high level content.

Enchanter power > Necro Power
Necro survivability > Enchanter survivability

Learning curves are pretty high for necromancers considering something a Necro would have great difficulty in taking down is, on average, of medium difficulty to an enchanter.

[Tecmos Deception]

That's how I assumed things would work for necros, Auto.

For necros, it seems like the pull is more finesse and timing compared to a chanter just lulling stuff and hoping he doesn't aggro a whole room (though it IS possible to survive a bad pull as a chanter, it's just really nasty if there are casters that get separated from the melee mobs or if there are HTers).

Then the kill is more of a balancing act if you're using EoT (since he can't tank well against unslowed mobs and won't hold aggro if root is breaking) and more of a crapshoot if you're using charm (since it won't last as long and you can't recover from a break as easily).

Also seems like necros probably need to clear, on average, more mobs out to have a spot to work with than a chanter. I can't count the number of times in south or seb that I kill a named standing 5 feet away from lulled trash mobs that I'm feeling too lazy to kill... and that isn't gonna work for a necro as far as I can figure.