Classic mechanic discussion: fast weapon/white damage aggro

[Nirgon]

Riddle me this.

I see threads of warriors and a few others who I have every reason to believe know their classic EQ citing things in line with what I'm going to lay out here.

I've also done my share of dps in groups on both p99 servers as both melee, caster and enchanter, with tanks using different weapons and even tanking myself.

Something is off with "white" aggro hits, and I think I might know the cause (discussion part inc).

Back in the day, I recall talking to some melees regarding fast weapons.

Scenario 1:
I asked a ranger why he doesn't use his revulantat whip. Response: "too much aggro". Notice he didn't see too much damage, but too much aggro.

Scenario 2:
Revultant whip drops, ranger complains about flux bladed axe / whip "sucking" as their planar weapons, citing "too much aggro for too little damage"

Scenario 3:
Warrior who continues to use his efreeti standard (even to tank raid mobs! Ooga of RZ) until it is nerfed to off hand only.

My belief (after discussion with Kringe in team speak) is that every single landed hit from a weapon, in addition to the damage it did, had a base amount of hate for a scored hit.

Break down of what I think is going on now (procs aside):
Total threat = total damage done (there abouts)

Break down of what I think should be happening:
Total threat = total damage done, but for each hit scored, a flat amount of threat needs to land.

ie:
500 hits for total of 500 threat damage, PLUS another 250 or so threat at half a point (making up #'s here btw) for each hit scored.

Our warriors in classic, not because they were clueless, I saw using spined dragon claws and a blood fire to tank over dual yaks (yes they had both). The spined dragon claws are 3 less delay than a yak and 2 more damage. Blood fire, 3 more damage, same delay and ~31 less threat per proc. I also believe the blood fire on classic had a much higher proc rate than the yak, but could be wrong here. These warriors weren't clueless, knew how much threat stuns caused, tested all kinds of shit regularly etc. The rangers in question (notably Webe from RZ), similarly, tried their revultant whips during classic and bagged or destroyed them according to their comments I recall above.

My feels overall are that white damage and "per hit" damage on threat are off a bit here (its classic enough for me to be happy, just getting granular now and certain weps are being ignored). Others may add their 2 cents and of course research must be done!

[Hamahakki]

What you posted here is pretty much exactly how I remember melee aggro working in classic. Slow weapons definitely generated less threat than fast ones, even if the damage dealt was equal.

Another non-classic melee bug here: on live, if you were sitting down, an entire round of melee attacks would hit for max damage. On p1999, it hits as if you were standing.

[Joroz]

Seems more how I remember it also... I mean take the mallet strategy here... its has such a huge impact on tanks grabbing agro, its pretty much standard raiding gear here where as on live it had almost no value cause it didn't do shit.

[JayN]

Seems more how I remember it also... I mean take the mallet strategy here... its has such a huge impact on tanks grabbing agro, its pretty much standard raiding gear here where as on live it had almost no value cause it didn't do shit.

This is an untrue statement, also theya re not the only thing used for aggro purposes

[Nirgon]

Another non-classic melee bug here: on live, if you were sitting down, an entire round of melee attacks would hit for max damage. On p1999, it hits as if you were standing.

Yes, should always take full max damage on all rounds sitting with no chance of a miss. Noticed it but forgot to bring it up.

That can pretty much get a bug thread made about it immediately.

Moving on!

[Joroz]

This is an untrue statement, also theya re not the only thing used for aggro purposes

prove it... show me a guild that required everyone to have a mallet for raids. it didn't happen, because mallets were used like other spells or arrows/throwing shit for tagging, not locking agro so an entire raid can blast away without having to worry about the mob turning. Tanks always had a period of agro building up front on raid mobs... sort of how we still kind of wait on engage calls on lesser shit here. It was never 5 clicks and all out assault till mob dead with no risk.

[Splorf22]

It's classic here Nirgon. The aggro of a 1H hit is precisely damage+damage bonus. So lets do some math:

Efreeti Standard 3/10; 3+11 = 14 aggro/swing, 14/10 = 1.40 'hate' ratio
Revultant whip 5/14; 5+11 = 16 aggro/swing, 16/14 = 1.14 'hate' ratio
Blade of Strategy: 14/24: 14+11 = 25 aggro/swing, 25/24 = 1.04 'hate' ratio
Katana of Endurance: 18/30: 18+11 = 29 aggro/swing, 29/30 = 0.97 'hate' ratio

So fast weapons have relatively more threat per damage even when their ratio is lower. Its working as intended.

Now why 2H has nerfed swing hate, I have no idea.

[JayN]

prove it... show me a guild that required everyone to have a mallet for raids. it didn't happen, because mallets were used like other spells or arrows/throwing shit for tagging, not locking agro so an entire raid can blast away without having to worry about the mob turning. Tanks always had a period of agro building up front on raid mobs... sort of how we still kind of wait on engage calls on lesser shit here. It was never 5 clicks and all out assault till mob dead with no risk.


uh ya they did espcially for 32k mobs that you pop in 30 seconds or less, why is being smart and using good tactics a bad idea..

building agro for tanks you call it; was Velious when things had well over 32k hp (pretty much just warriors).

hybrids had great agro with their spells, not needing bladestopper, puppet strings or some other form of huge threat generation.

What guild requires you to have one to raid, your so full of shit its coming out your nose and ears.

[Joroz]

why is being smart and using good tactics a bad idea..

its not


What guild requires you to have one to raid, your so full of shit its coming out your nose and ears.

nice deflection & attack.... still no proof provided.

[Nirgon]

So Splorf.. on a long enough parse you think spined claw + bloodfire will overtake dual yaks eh? I highly doubt it!

Get the midnight mallet stuff outta here, make yo own thread.

[Splorf22]

So Splorf.. on a long enough parse you think spined claw + bloodfire will overtake dual yaks eh? I highly doubt it!

Until the Ykesha procs, yes. But the Ykesha proc (and other debuff/stun spells) were huge aggro. After the nerf stuns were 400 hate; before the nerf spells were even more. That's 20 swings. Either your friends didn't know what they were doing, or they got tired of being in XP groups and waiting 30 seconds for a proc and having stuff dead by then.

You need to understand that the human brain is not capable of accurately measuring the mean of a highly random process.

[Borador]

It's classic here Nirgon. The aggro of a 1H hit is precisely damage+damage bonus. So lets do some math:

Efreeti Standard 3/10; 3+11 = 14 aggro/swing, 14/10 = 1.40 'hate' ratio
Revultant whip 5/14; 5+11 = 16 aggro/swing, 16/14 = 1.14 'hate' ratio
Blade of Strategy: 14/24: 14+11 = 25 aggro/swing, 25/24 = 1.04 'hate' ratio
Katana of Endurance: 18/30: 18+11 = 29 aggro/swing, 29/30 = 0.97 'hate' ratio

So fast weapons have relatively more threat per damage even when their ratio is lower. Its working as intended.

Now why 2H has nerfed swing hate, I have no idea.
The damage bonus aside there was definitely something else going on with fast weapon aggro. It was also more than just consistency. Spell hate, white damage, taunt... All does not feel classic to me, although its hard to pinpoint the issue.

Twig offhand is a good example of higher threat with a lot less damage ratio.

[JayN]

a lot of stuff isnt classic here, like wth is the moss covered branch? I used to tank with that thing on my paladin in exp groups in KC on live 5/15 2hb; I dont even think it exists on this server TBH.

[Elmarnieh]

I believe there is aggro added on an attempted attack and thus misses would add some aggro and thus more misses from faster swings would be a bit of aggro. Though I can't imagine procing yaks wouldn't pull aggro back once they proced.

[Nirgon]

I doubt I'd see a ranger here say he wouldn't use a whip because of threat here, just shitty damage. Think about it.

[big mouth chew]

threat/hate/aggro generated by melee attacks (not procs) should be per swing, not per hit

[Nirgon]

^ mmmabes. Explains faster >. Not sure on that tho.

[Nirgon]

2002, but still..
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=211

I solo or partner quite often still, so aggro is not a concern.



The only problem that arises is aggro, but it's not that much worse than using an 18 delay weapon. A good jolt here and there almost always keeps the aggro off of me.


Quite a bit of aggro chatter.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4

Regardless, a fast weapon creates aggro, through the number of hits


Saying what I was saying right there ^

https://forums.station.sony.com/eq/index.php?threads/addicted-warrior-seeks-halp.4193/

Faster hits = better aggro. I believe the aggro meter is a feature of RoF.


Talking about wurmy:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=355

One of the knocks on this weapon is that it is too slow to hold agro.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Completely anecdotal, but I used to see a lot of warriors that would duel wield lamentations and hold aggro decently well. Also, I definitely remember the revultant whip getting a lot of hate for its hyper-aggro tendencies.

What could explain this? Were we all just that bad at the game?

[Wrench]

^ mmmabes. Explains faster >. Not sure on that tho.

Rogean *thinks* it works that way here currently.

Aggro is generated based on swings, regardless of hits or misses. This has always been the case both here and on live. Go read The Steel Warrior if you think I'm incorrect or that this server is not classic in that regard.

So with your example of two warriors doing the same amount of swings, even if one does more damage, they will have the same aggro. There is a *slight* biase for mobs towards their current target, so it will take more than +1 over the current top to take aggro from them (it is still a relatively small biase, and it is taken into consideration for taunt. It's only there to prevent a mob literally pulling 180's every swing between two players).

[Nirgon]

Maybe per swing isn't high enough if that's the case..

[Borador]

Completely anecdotal, but I used to see a lot of warriors that would duel wield lamentations and hold aggro decently well. Also, I definitely remember the revultant whip getting a lot of hate for its hyper-aggro tendencies.

What could explain this? Were we all just that bad at the game?certainly possible. But, I used to dw jade maces because it gave me almost zero aggro issues. The hate on misses makes since and is probably not calculated the same here.

[Enygma]

I recall Lamentations (from SEb) being one of the best agro items in game pre-epics because of the 9/19 ratio. Lots of warriors running around with them etc... due to stats atk/dly ratio.

On this server you wouldn't see a warrior using lammy in a million years.

[Nirgon]

Finally a big warrior steps in. Ty Sworen.

[nilbog]

Another non-classic melee bug here: on live, if you were sitting down, an entire round of melee attacks would hit for max damage. On p1999, it hits as if you were standing.

Few people on the pvp server said quite the opposite. That they are being hit harder than a possible max hit while sitting.

Anyone have more info on this?

[Nirgon]

Log in, sit down in front of some frogs in seb

[Splorf22]

I recall Lamentations (from SEb) being one of the best agro items in game pre-epics because of the 9/19 ratio. Lots of warriors running around with them etc... due to stats atk/dly ratio.

On this server you wouldn't see a warrior using lammy in a million years.

So why on earth were these warriors from live using a 9/19 Lamentation instead of a 9/20 Sarnak Warhammer with a huge aggro proc? I mean even if fast weapons are your thing.

[Ambrotos]

Faster the weapon, the more agro you build on top the of the damage. That's why the twig was nerfed. It wasn't just for the dps reasons, it also had crazy agro.

Seemed like faster agro was more than damage agro.

[Splorf22]

I mean I posted on the first page the precise mathematics that give exactly the behavior that Nirgon wants and are in fact implemented and instead he is going off on one of his unfounded crusades.

Mosscovered twig: 5+11 = 16/10 = 1.6 ratio. That's way better than the epic (1.05 ratio).

[webrunner5]

prove it... show me a guild that required everyone to have a mallet for raids. it didn't happen, because mallets were used like other spells or arrows/throwing shit for tagging, not locking agro so an entire raid can blast away without having to worry about the mob turning. Tanks always had a period of agro building up front on raid mobs... sort of how we still kind of wait on engage calls on lesser shit here. It was never 5 clicks and all out assault till mob dead with no risk.

What he said.

[koros]

Thats not how it works Splorf. It's (damage x 2 + (db))/delay. Twig is 1.7, epic is 1.625

[JayN]

I mean I posted on the first page the precise mathematics that give exactly the behavior that Nirgon wants and are in fact implemented and instead he is going off on one of his unfounded crusades.

Mosscovered twig: 5+11 = 16/10 = 1.6 ratio. That's way better than the epic (1.05 ratio).


where do you get these numbers from?

[Nirgon]

Agreed with Ambrotos.

Rolled eyes @ splorf.

[pasi]

Rather than type up a long post as usual:

Hate per swing = damage + (damage bonus * hate mod)

Some reading if you care

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3789

http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38

[pasi]

My belief (after discussion with Kringe in team speak) is that every single landed hit from a weapon, in addition to the damage it did, had a base amount of hate for a scored hit.

Swings are as much hate as misses. It doesn't matter if you miss, get parried, hit for full, hit for the lowest DI, crit, etc. It's all the same hate.

I don't want to derail this thread, but procs that stun and debuff should not be capped in this era. That means the hate given by these effects 'should' be a function of the NPC's HP rather than the 400 hate cap on non-casted stuns.

I'm not sure if stun and debuff procs are modifier based on the HP of mobs over here, but if the server is using flat values for these spells, it would explain why melee hate seems relatively weak compared to procs in an exp setting. In a raid setting, procs should be WAY more aggro than melee hate.

I'm too tired to dig it up, but I posted a link a while back showing what casted stuns did threat wise relative to mob HP.

[Vayder]

Completely anecdotal, but I used to see a lot of warriors that would duel wield lamentations and hold aggro decently well. Also, I definitely remember the revultant whip getting a lot of hate for its hyper-aggro tendencies.

What could explain this? Were we all just that bad at the game?

It's true on live many warriors would dual wield lamentations, but...

1) How many pickup group rogues had epic?
2) How many pickup group monks had epic/SoS or T-staff?
3) How many pickup group melee had better than FBSS haste?
4) If swing speed was what mattered, why did warriors use dual Lamentation rather than dual Jade Mace?

The reality is that Lamentation drops frequently, had stats that were overvalued, a graphic people really liked, and the average pickup group required you to generate far less hate than you need to here.

The mechanics for hate are well known, readily available and are implemented on the server.

[koros]

Take that back, what I posted was for damage not hate.

[khanable]

Swings are as much hate as misses. It doesn't matter if you miss, get parried, hit for full, hit for the lowest DI, crit, etc. It's all the same hate.

I don't want to derail this thread, but procs that stun and debuff should not be capped in this era. That means the hate given by these effects 'should' be a function of the NPC's HP rather than the 400 hate cap on non-casted stuns.

I'm not sure if stun and debuff procs are modifier based on the HP of mobs over here, but if the server is using flat values for these spells, it would explain why melee hate seems relatively weak compared to procs in an exp setting. In a raid setting, procs should be WAY more aggro than melee hate.

I'm too tired to dig it up, but I posted a link a while back showing what casted stuns did threat wise relative to mob HP.

Correct. I posted some links about this in the warrior epic thread.

Remember, the warrior epic originally had a debuff proc instead of a +hate proc. That's why we still have a residual spell gem. At the time debuff procs were functions of the mobs max HP -- which made them rather shitty during kunark, and very over powered in velious. There was a hate generation revamp that I believe changed the warrior epic and put a max on the debuff hate generation.

This is why enchanters and whatnot would get insta-gibbed debuffing basically anthing in velious.

I don't think it's a matter of hate per swing working incorrectly, I just think the hate generation on some procs is higher than it should be AND we have a huge pool of super twinked toons.

[koros]

It's true on live many warriors would dual wield lamentations, but...

1) How many pickup group rogues had epic?
2) How many pickup group monks had epic/SoS or T-staff?
3) How many pickup group melee had better than FBSS haste?
4) If swing speed was what mattered, why did warriors use dual Lamentation rather than dual Jade Mace?

The reality is that Lamentation drops frequently, had stats that were overvalued, a graphic people really liked, and the average pickup group required you to generate far less hate than you need to here.

The mechanics for hate are well known, readily available and are implemented on the server.

Jade Maces were decently rare during Kunark, not a whole lot of wars had 2 by the end of the expansion. Lammys were much more common and you're right about the stats being overvalued.

[Borador]

I mean I posted on the first page the precise mathematics that give exactly the behavior that Nirgon wants and are in fact implemented and instead he is going off on one of his unfounded crusades.

Mosscovered twig: 5+11 = 16/10 = 1.6 ratio. That's way better than the epic (1.05 ratio).and there is no offhand damage bonus, the hate generation was extremely high in the OFFhand with faster weapons not just the main (aka its not just damage done). What you are posting is why twig did so much damage (and obviously hate generation) as a main hand abusing the DMG bonus..

[Borador]

It's true on live many warriors would dual wield lamentations, but...

1) How many pickup group rogues had epic?
2) How many pickup group monks had epic/SoS or T-staff?
3) How many pickup group melee had better than FBSS haste?
4) If swing speed was what mattered, why did warriors use dual Lamentation rather than dual Jade Mace?

The reality is that Lamentation drops frequently, had stats that were overvalued, a graphic people really liked, and the average pickup group required you to generate far less hate than you need to here.

The mechanics for hate are well known, readily available and are implemented on the server.someone beat me to it, but lammys were common and people overvalued the stats... Like you said, which is why duel jade maces weren't as common, although that's what I used. Literally 2 seconds headstart and I had zero aggro issues.

My rogue was epic'd pretty quickly as well and it was easy to see the difference when a tank had fast weapons, give them a few seconds and aggro was fine. The only thing proc weapons did was allow you to BS sooner if they got a lucky proc early.

[crkhobbit]

I mean I posted on the first page the precise mathematics that give exactly the behavior that Nirgon wants and are in fact implemented and instead he is going off on one of his unfounded crusades.

Mosscovered twig: 5+11 = 16/10 = 1.6 ratio. That's way better than the epic (1.05 ratio).

This makes perfect sense to me.

I remember faster weapons being better aggro from live as well. I don't think we understood why back then, but we knew that dual wielding fast weapons worked the best.

As for using a faster weapon over a proc weapon, my guess would be consistency. Especially in an XP group. Procs aren't guaranteed.

[Zeelot]

Check out my old bug report regarding this, unfortunately nothing has been changed, maybe got lost in the shuffle. Pretty sure this is how it's supposed to be - http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39361

[Colgate]

Few people on the pvp server said quite the opposite. That they are being hit harder than a possible max hit while sitting.

Anyone have more info on this?

someone coded it for pvp to have an extra percentage modifier or flat damage bonus added to sitting targets and always hitting for max damage

that's why we hear about people popping duelist and backstabbing a sitting player for double 1200s with a ragebringer

here's an example where i'm level 59 using a tstaff(29/30) and pop innerflame and one round a 54 magician who's sitting

http://i.imgur.com/TX98iN2.jpg

innerflame is a 100% damage increase, and i'm absolutely certain that a max hit for a tstaff even at 60 is lower than 170(i believe in the gear i was using it should be somewhere in the 130s or up to 140) and flying kick was somewhere around 130 as well

here we see flying kick doing 324 damage and each melee round doing 341 damage

[Heebo]

Max damage sitting vs a PC works fine on blue but definitely broken vs NPCs.

[big mouth chew]

this thread gettin a lil off track but i still like it

while we're talking about anything unclassic lets talk about UIs plz

[Enygma]

It makes sense what Vayder and Koros have chimed in here regarding Lammies. I forget the expansion was only out for 9 or so months before Velious was released and warriors were almost immediately upgrading to clubs of ice ocean and frostbringer etc.

[koros]

and there is no offhand damage bonus, the hate generation was extremely high in the OFFhand with faster weapons not just the main (aka its not just damage done). What you are posting is why twig did so much damage (and obviously hate generation) as a main hand abusing the DMG bonus..

No he was right, that's in regards to hate generation. It actually didn't do that much damage in mainhand (Just slightly more than an epic or jade mace)

[cs616]

What could explain this? Were we all just that bad at the game?

I think this is the most likely scenario. It isn't just warriors on this server having problems with aggro that is different, but the general level of gear/knowledge/skill of the DPS in their group as well. I too remember warriors dual wielding lammys, but those warriors were also probably 15 year old kids who were studying for their algebra exam the next day while playing, I know I was. I think we all like to look back at live and think we knew everything because a few of us were in successful guilds, but even being in a top end raiding guild myself I can look back and realize how little I understood in terms of game mechanics. Even now a lot of people on this server who are in the top guilds like FE and TMO really are clueless beyond what they think the role of their particular class is.

One of my characters on this server is currently a 58 warrior who was created back in 2010. I've tanked just about every encounter outside of VP and grouped in just about every zone while playing him. People having problems with aggro either have bad players pulling aggro off them, or are bad players themselves and don't know how to use taunt, which despite popular belief does work pretty well on this server. It really is as simple as that.

Could there be slight differences in how this server and live calculate aggro? Absolutely. Is it a broken mechanic that is in need of immediate attention, or even really affects play on this server? No.

Edit - just to clarify, I realize taunt doesn't work on raid mobs. When talking about taunt I was speaking to exp groups. For raids, obviously generating aggro through other means is the way to go.

[Nirgon]

This has all the Nilbog benefits of a bug thread, with all the discussion benefits of not yelling at me for posting and debating in bugs.

It even has a PvP kill shot.

Liking this thread on Facebook.

[Borador]

No he was right, that's in regards to hate generation. It actually didn't do that much damage in mainhand (Just slightly more than an epic or jade mace)right about what? He simply showed the dps of the weapons. Obviously that is a factor in hate generation. But, a main reason the twig was busted was because of its hate generation from the low delay. This was shown when it was nerfed to offhand only yet still generated a lot of hate. The only reason they didn't remove it retroactively is it wasn't also providing massive DPS.

As far as its damage. I wouldn't call nearly 40% increase on the epic from a level 20 something mob "slight".

[cs616]

MCT never parsed out the numbers people claimed it would based on their live experiences on this server. Numerous parses showed it falling short of other common weapons such as t-staff, addy club, sos, and rfs back when it was still main-hand. Not sure what the actual reasoning is but that weapon shouldn't even really be part of the conversation. I remember someone speculating that there was some sort of minimum delay on the server so that the MCT wasn't able to get below something like 9 delay.

[Nirgon]

If hate generated from swings needs to be brought up (methinks this is the case), it'd be hard to find a hard and fast formula to just directly implement given the current system(?).

I'd propose giving a warrior 2 lammies and testing spell damage threat gain against it.

Something does need to be done regarding the "proc or bust" warrior choices here. We can agree the consensus is that unless you're twinking a warrior you are having trouble here I think, or, you are certainly not as useful a tank as you should be.

As far as "unfounded" claims. Do realize I played during this era and want to see a more classic server, so I offer what I remember. Not everything is logged in patch notes or on archived web pages. I also realize changes take a community effort, especially filling in the gaps and helping each other remember or just piece things together.

I'd also like to think many of you registered forum accounts to discuss classic EverQuest, but hey, who knows.

[cs616]

I just disagree that something needs to be done about the "proc or bust". There are quite a few good aggro procing weapons that are cheap, I certainly wouldn't consider a mid level warrior with dual SSoY a twink. "Proc or bust" even continued into velious with SoD, BoC, JK, that Vaniki weapon that I can't remember, etc.

Low level, undergeared warriors are always going to have aggro problems when they're grouped with twinks or bad players who pull aggro. I literally can't think of an era in which tanks weren't dependent on procs. In classic it was Yaks, in Kunark epics, in Velious BoC, in Luclin it was hatebringer and bloodfrenzy, in PoP it was that RZtWL sword. Obviously those are the top end examples, but you get my point. Like I said in velious, even then you had all the low level warriors using wavecrashers and frostbringers. Tanks and procing weapons is about as classic as it gets in EQ.

[Borador]

MCT never parsed out the numbers people claimed it would based on their live experiences on this server. Numerous parses showed it falling short of other common weapons such as t-staff, addy club, sos, and rfs back when it was still main-hand. Not sure what the actual reasoning is but that weapon shouldn't even really be part of the conversation. I remember someone speculating that there was some sort of minimum delay on the server so that the MCT wasn't able to get below something like 9 delay.I believe its in this discussion in reference to low delay weapons and hate generation. The post by splorf talking about DPS (with bonus) is less relevant.

Also, as far as the minimum delay and parses go, I do recall problems with eq log timestamps and parsing not going below 1 second. The real(eq) world damage was in fact higher but the log issue caused some drama.

[koros]

right about what? He simply showed the dps of the weapons. Obviously that is a factor in hate generation. But, a main reason the twig was busted was because of its hate generation from the low delay. This was shown when it was nerfed to offhand only yet still generated a lot of hate. The only reason they didn't remove it retroactively is it wasn't also providing massive DPS.

As far as its damage. I wouldn't call nearly 40% increase on the epic from a level 20 something mob "slight".

The formula for hate generation is more along the lines of ((weapon damage + damage bonus)/delay). That's what he was saying.

The difference in DAMAGE vs epic at level 60 is ~4.5%, (((weapon damage x 2) + damage bonus)/delay) but that's also about the same damage a jade mace does. It's good, but it's not even close to 40%

[koros]

I just disagree that something needs to be done about the "proc or bust". There are quite a few good aggro procing weapons that are cheap, I certainly wouldn't consider a mid level warrior with dual SSoY a twink. "Proc or bust" even continued into velious with SoD, BoC, JK, that Vaniki weapon that I can't remember, etc.

Low level, undergeared warriors are always going to have aggro problems when they're grouped with twinks or bad players who pull aggro. I literally can't think of an era in which tanks weren't dependent on procs. In classic it was Yaks, in Kunark epics, in Velious BoC, in Luclin it was hatebringer and bloodfrenzy, in PoP it was that RZtWL sword. Obviously those are the top end examples, but you get my point. Like I said in velious, even then you had all the low level warriors using wavecrashers and frostbringers. Tanks and procing weapons is about as classic as it gets in EQ.

I was a rogue with pretty top end weapons Kunark and Velious, and I rarely ever had problems with aggro even with wars using non-proccing weaps. Only time it was often an issue is if I busted out my Tendonslicer in Luclin.

[Borador]

The formula for hate generation is more along the lines of ((weapon damage + damage bonus)/delay). That's what he was saying.

The difference in DAMAGE vs epic at level 60 is ~4.5%, (((weapon damage x 2) + damage bonus)/delay) but that's also about the same damage a jade mace does. It's good, but it's not even close to 40%Ya, you are correct. My hate damage numbers are getting mixed up. Still it was a broken damage weapon at the time, people weren't running around with epics everywhere.

Also, like Norton I'm mostly going off the classic feel. Ya, you could hold aggro with rusty daggers, play with "better" players, or just rely on price. But, that isn't how it was, auto attacks provided much more than they appear to be.

[cs616]

I was a rogue with pretty top end weapons Kunark and Velious, and I rarely ever had problems with aggro even with wars using non-proccing weaps. Only time it was often an issue is if I busted out my Tendonslicer in Luclin.

That is kind of my whole point though, even now my warrior doesn't have problems holding aggro over drastically better geared rogues, assuming both me and the rogues are playing our classes properly (e.g. warrior using taunt only when aggro is lost, rogue evading).

I've already admitted that it is quite likely that the aggro calculations on this server aren't perfect, but my concern with this thread is going too far in the opposite direction. A skilled warrior grouped with unskilled dps should not be able to hold aggro. By that I mean, that if a rogue, monk, wizard, mage, etc wants to pull aggro off a warrior, they should be able to almost 100% of the time. However, a skilled warrior with knowledgeable dps currently has no problem holding aggro. To me that seems like a situation where trying to "fix" it is only going to cause more problems. A warrior using lammys absolutely should not be able to hold aggro over an epic rogue unless that rogue is evading.

All I ask is that before we start asking for changes based on anecdotal evidence, which is all I've really seen in this thread, lets make sure those changes are actually needed and not just perceived to be needed because some people are bad at this game.

Edit - not implying anyone in particular in this thread is "bad at this game", just that people who don't understand mechanics are quick to assume something is wrong with the game before questioning whether they're doing something wrong.

[big mouth chew]

warriors wield what they wanna

[Nirgon]

I'm not talking about people running around with stave of shielding, epics at low levels as a point of interest... I have no points of interest other than a classic implementation.

Moreso this would effect warriors with 2 lammies (read: fast weapons) generating more hate, or for lowbie warriors being able to tank much better without waiting for the level their weapons start to proc. It just makes non proc weapons + fast more effective in general and currently that's not how it feels. Fast proc weapons like Willsapper were outrageously high threat. So much so our warriors (Kaukaz, Gestahl etc) in Velious were using blue epic + willsapper early and having no problems. Later they did just fine using willsapper + primal sword as primary, speed was win.

[Splorf22]

Koros thanks for the backup! Nirgon please go read a book on statistics and epistemology. Zeelot as far as I can tell your post was implemented precisely except the 1H 'modifier' here is 1.0 instead of 0.7 and the 2H modifier here is 0.7 instead of 1.1. I have no idea why.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88535

[khanable]

I for one don't think there is much wrong with the hate generation per swing.

What I do believe to be an issue is hate generation on some procs is off, and we're living in a post-WOW mmo world where people no longer give a shit about waiting for assist.

On live, folks gave me a few seconds to build up hate.

Nobody does that shit here.

I have zero issues tanking when I am grouped with mindful people.

[cs616]

I get what you're saying, but you're asking for an aggro revamp based purely on anecdotal evidence, that really serves no point. Yaks are cheaper than lammy and proc at 35? Obsidian shards are cheaper still and proc in the 20s? What non-twinked low level warrior is going to be running around with 7k in weapons (2x lammy)? So from a practical stand point it isn't going to help the players on this server, and from a "classic" stand point, there simply isn't anything beyond anecdotal evidence.

I get that you're trying to make the server more classic, but "I remember fast weapons causing more aggro" isn't what we base changes off of. You can talk about what weapons you remember players on live using all day, but again, you're asking for a change with little to no evidence that again, serves no real purpose.

I mean, just this right here:

It just makes non proc weapons + fast more effective in general and currently that's not how it feels. Fast proc weapons like Willsapper were outrageously high threat.

How something feels versus how you recollect it feeling 12 years ago isn't an argument we should be making if implementing classic mechanics is really your goal. Like wise, how can you say that willsapper had high aggro due to its speed when it proc'd a slow? I used a willsapper on progression 1.0 for months, and no one used it because it was fast. It wasn't even that fast compared to other procing weapons like baton of flame or dragonrib club. People used Willsapper because it proc'd a slow... again proc or bust.

[khanable]

Ya'll should read through these two threads:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=120110

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=119584

Especially towards the end as more information is dug up

Might help here

[Nirgon]

Jesus. It is sad that I get attacked by the enchanter guild farming stuff forever on because I insist something (that ends up getting patched for the better) like you shouldn't be able to charm/dictate Sirran :(.

There's numerous threads about warriors complaining about their threat with procless weapons and by observation you can tell that things don't feel quite right. Many others(intelligent posters too) seem to feel the same.

It's just a general discussion thread, feel free to attack the posted patch notes regarding mage swords proc'ing on unsummoned. It certainly threatens an advantage pets (charmed ones!) should not have.

I get what you're saying, but you're asking for an aggro revamp based purely on anecdotal evidence, that really serves no point.

How something feels versus how you recollect it feeling 12 years ago isn't an argument we should be making if implementing classic mechanics is really your goal. Like wise, how can you say that willsapper had high aggro due to its speed when it proc'd a slow


No, I'm generating discussion, again, because things feel off. How about tanks keeping that primal warsword in their offhand? And not a Neb's Warbone for instance instead? I know the sapper proc'd a slow and then I go on to note that they used a weapon offhand with no threat proc.

[Splorf22]

Besides, we basically never get game mechanics fixes. I have a consolidated thread of like 10, some of which are pretty important, and I don't think I've ever gotten a dev post on any thread.

[koros]

I doubt melee threat generation was ever significantly changed? Maybe just doing some tests on EQMac would be the way to go.

[Splorf22]

Jesus. It is sad that I get attacked by the enchanter guild farming stuff forever on because I insist something (that ends up getting patched for the better) like you shouldn't be able to charm/dictate Sirran :(

I am criticizing you because for the millionth time your logic is somewhere between bad and nonexistent. The exact mathematics of aggro are well known. They give the effect you want: fast weapons generate substantially more melee aggro. Back in the day, Kunark lasted for 9 months. People would give the warrior a few seconds to build aggro. Not every rogue had a ragebringer. Not every monk had epic/sos/cof. The outcomes will be different. If it seems like I am ranting here, it's because I don't know how to deal with people who insist on relying on vague memories over known mathematics. And I am about as anti-intellectual a person as you will ever find.

P.S. I have always been for nerfing Sirran. And I wish our guild had more Enchanters.

[Nirgon]

We get fixes. Kanras did very big things in my opinion with opening the possibility for NPCs to add nearby players to their hatelist by proximity. That is mighty fine in my book.

Hopefully the new PvP dev can get through our list of lil fixes and join the rest of the team. Some of the PvP fixes (like dispel mechanics, buff stacking) have PvE ramifications as well :).

There's a post where I mention I'm not primarily concerned with the gear levels here, but moreso that I feel bad for warriors who buy a pair of lammies and feel pathetic in the threat department. That does not feel classic at all.

I would highly doubt anything gets changed as a result of this thread other than NPC hitting sitting players for max damage, if even that.

You disagree, thank you for your opinion. Those who do not disagree can continue down vague memory lane!

[cs616]

A bunch of people giving anecdotal evidence is still anecdotal evidence, just a lot of it. I'm sure a lot of people are complaining, but if you've played on p99 blue you'll also know that a lot of people think they know a lot more about playing this game than they actually do.

As for why a warrior would keep a primal in offhand, unless they didn't have a better procing weapon there really is no reason to keep in primal after it procs. Maybe if they're not tanking as well to avoid pulling aggro, but as a main tank is simply doesn't make sense to tank with a primal. Again though, just because you saw someone you thought was good at this game doing something on live, doesn't mean that was actually correct. As I said before, I was in a top end guild and back then I was straight awful at this game. The skill and knowledge level on live is no where near what it is on p99, even at the highest levels of play.

[Nirgon]

I'll give you that much. But still, I'd like to see someone with a moss covered twig and efreeti standard (pre nerf) give dual RMOYs a run for their money here.

[Hamahakki]

The reality is that Lamentation drops frequently, had stats that were overvalued, a graphic people really liked, and the average pickup group required you to generate far less hate than you need to here.


Also, on live, stamina (the yellow bar, not the character stat) actually mattered and Lamentation is very light.

[Nirgon]

Good ole extinguish fatigue / acumen

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Also, on live, stamina (the yellow bar, not the character stat) actually mattered and Lamentation is very light.

»THIS«

As long as we're going off memory lane from when we were 15 - I deff remember the weight of the item coming into consideration.

[Stinkum]

I pray for the day when weapon weight actually matters, like it did on live, and the stamina-regeneration spell lines are worth scribing.

[khanable]

I pray for the day when weapon weight actually matters, like it did on live, and the stamina-regeneration spell lines are worth scribing.

+1

Someone did get a classic client connected..

THROW PEOPLE AT IT UNTIL IT WORKS

[pasi]

The exact mathematics of aggro are well known. They give the effect you want: fast weapons generate substantially more melee aggro.

Yep.

[Vayder]

^^