Blacksmithing Trivals

[Vandy]

Here is a snapshot from Oct 18 2000 of blacksmith trivals. The current state of many of the items included banded are far too low. Not sure what the current reasoning is for posted trivals as all I have found is a picture of the EQ Strategy guide which has INCORRECT trivals as well as tons of other incorrect information.



http://web.archive.org/web/20001018041339/http://eq.castersrealm.com/tradeskills/smithing/trivials.asp

[smooman]

backing this up with a snapshot from the wayback machine.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000229035316/http://eqtraders.com/learn/smithing.html

[Vandy]

Here is a complete blacksmithing guide I pulled from an old Graffe's archive.


K.C.'s guide to becoming a mater smithe! (http://web.archive.org/web/20001109022400/http://www.kcsrealm.com/blacksmith/)

[Vandy]

UPDATE tradeskill_recipe Set trivial = CASE
WHEN name='banded belt' THEN 135
WHEN name='banded boots' THEN 135
WHEN name='banded bracer' THEN 102
WHEN name='banded cloak' THEN 175
WHEN name='banded gauntlets' THEN 168
WHEN name='banded gorget' THEN 102
WHEN name='banded helm' THEN 135
WHEN name='banded leggings' THEN 168
WHEN name='banded mail' THEN 135
WHEN name='banded mantle' THEN 168
WHEN name='banded mask' THEN 135
WHEN name='banded sleeves' THEN 135
WHEN name='sewing kit' THEN 135
WHEN name= 'shaped cookie cutters' THEN 56
WHEN name= 'studs' THEN 41
WHEN name= 'sheet metal' THEN 56
WHEN name= 'steel boing' THEN 41
WHEN name= 'skewers' THEN 115
WHEN name= 'metal bits' THEN 21
WHEN name= 'pot' THEN 122
ELSE trivial
END
WHERE name IN ('banded belt', 'banded boots', 'banded bracer', 'banded cloak', 'banded gauntlets', 'banded gorget', 'banded helm', 'banded leggings', 'banded mail', 'banded mantle', 'banded mask', 'banded sleeves', 'sewing kit', 'shaped cookie cutters', 'studs', 'sheet metal', 'steel boing', 'skewers', 'metal bits', 'pot');

[Vandy]

Link to an old thread from 2009 with links to Trivals from classic-kunark posted by a Dev

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=75

[Vandy]

A link that was posted by the Dev in the thread above was dead so I found a copy from 2001 on the waybackmachine.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010412135013/http://www.eqbible.com/bbg/train.html

[nilbog]

Thanks for taking the time to help list the items.

I really dislike the tradeskill tables and how they are related. Unfortunately I couldn't use your query as a select because the naming schema can't rely just on recipe names or craziness ensues :T

To get what I needed in one query, I chose to grab the item ids, and then look into recipes where they are used for blacksmithing. This turned out to look convoluted, but it worked.

select
tre.item_id,
tr.name,
tr.trivial
from tradeskill_recipe_entries tre
left join tradeskill_recipe tr on (tr.id = tre.recipe_id)
where
(tr.tradeskill = '63') and
tre.item_id in (select id from items where name like '%cookie cutter') or
tre.item_id in (select id from items where name in ('banded belt', 'banded boots', 'banded bracer', 'banded cloak', 'banded gauntlets', 'banded gorget', 'banded helm', 'banded leggings', 'banded mail', 'banded mantle', 'banded mask', 'banded sleeves', 'sewing kit', 'studs', 'sheet metal', 'steel boning', 'skewers', 'metal bits', 'pot'))
and (tre.successcount > '0')
and (tr.tradeskill not in (60,69))
order by tr.name13436 Animal Shaped Cookie Cutter 40
3059 banded belt 95
3064 banded boots 95
3061 banded bracer 95
3058 banded cloak 102
3062 banded gauntlets 102
3055 banded gorget 92
3053 banded helm 106
3063 banded leggings 108
3056 banded mail 115
3057 banded mantle 95
3054 banded mask 90
3060 banded sleeves 102
13433 Barbarian Shaped Cookie Cutter 40
13434 Gnome Shaped Cookie Cutter 40
16905 Metal Bits 18
13432 Pot 50
12003 sheet metal 31
13430 skewers 38
12073 Steel Boning 37
12072 studs 35
13435 Troll Shaped Cookie Cutter 40
It won't be difficult to change these trivials to be era-appropriate. When I update them, I need to know if it will be the same throughout the timeline though, else I need to apply a rule to when their trivials decrease, if before Luclin.

Did these recipe trivials persist throughout Velious?

[nilbog]

The best evidence I can find was in the 2002 patch:

JUNE 5, 2002

Made some changes to the General Blacksmithing difficulties to make the progression in this trade skill more logical and to allow for more variety in that path.
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020605a.htmlIf that's the case, I will update these for the next patch.

Additionally, if there are other blacksmithing issues, I will query them up for discussion. I really don't know enough about it without community discussion.

Thanks.

[Vega]

This reminds me of another bug report I need to file on blacksmithing, but have been lazy about researching. I'll make a separate thread though so as not to convolute this one.

[Vandy]

EQTraders from 2002
http://web.archive.org/web/20020802033803/http://www.eqtraders.com/

June 10, 2002
Just a few quick updates:

Cazic-Thule jewelcraft has been deciphered, and the first pieces have been successfully made. Recipes and stats are on the Cazic-Thule recipes page.

The dust is finally starting to slowly settle from the June 5 patch and all the changes to smithing trivials. It's still going to take a while to get it all updated, but we're getting there. For all of those asking on the various forums, as far as we know only smithing trivials were changed.

[Vandy]

There were a multitude of Smithing Trivial Changes during the June 5, 2002 patch.
Eqtraders Links from August 2002


Basics (http://web.archive.org/web/20020811045523/http://eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_conversions.htm)
Tools and Implements (http://web.archive.org/web/20020811045948/http://eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_implements.htm)
Weapons (http://web.archive.org/web/20020802195929/http://www.eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_weapons.htm)
Armor (http://web.archive.org/web/20020811045852/http://eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_armor.htm)


These lists include many items that were added during the Luclin expansion as well.
If needed I can go through all of them and try to sort out what is relevant to P99 and present a list by either item name or item number depending on which you prefer.

[Vega]

Ok, maybe it's not straying too much to add this here then, because what I was going to report is directly from that June 5th, 2002 patch.

Currently there are electrum ornate, gold ornate, and platinum ornate combines working in game. I don't believe they should be in until the patch that Vandy is mentioning. If you look at the snapshot of EQTraders from June 2nd, 2002, you'll see none of them are there:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020602043138/http://www.eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_armor.htm

Not super conclusive, but does coincide with when this stuff started getting comments on Alla:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=12664

Perhaps there are alot of tradeskill related things on p99 that are in from this patch which shouldn't be?

[Vandy]

Vega is correct but those recipes were added the previous month to this patch on May 8th 2002.

The Platinum, Electrum and Golden Ornate recipes should not be active.



MAY 8, 2002

Tradeskills:

Added over 1,000 new tradeskill recipes for all levels of skill, along with many recipe books. A few of the vendors of Norrath might be able to get you started on your way.
Added Mortar and Pestle to a Thurgadin merchant.
Rubbing Alcohol is now available from a vendor in Thurgadin.

[nilbog]

This page discusses Ornate chain.

https://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4514&page=2

Seems webarchive is temporarily down so I can't check into it atm.

[nilbog]

Pending update, the following smithing item trivial changes will be in effect:

Pot 122
Animal Shaped Cookie Cutter 56
Troll Shaped Cookie Cutter 56
Gnome Shaped Cookie Cutter 56
Metal Bits 21
Steel Boning 41
sheet metal 56
skewers 115
banded mail 135
Barbarian Shaped Cookie Cutter 56
banded gorget 102
banded mask 135
banded belt 135
banded bracer 102
banded boots 135
banded mantle 168
banded cloak 175
banded gauntlets 168
banded sleeves 102
banded leggings 168
studs 41
banded helm 135

[Vega]

This page discusses Ornate chain.

https://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4514&page=2

Seems webarchive is temporarily down so I can't check into it atm.

Regular recipe should be in game, extra-cris... I mean electrum, gold, and platinum ornate should not be. For the comparison, look at the differences under 'Ornate Chain' between these two snapshots of EQTraders:

June 2nd, 2002:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020602043138/http://www.eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_armor.htm

August 11th, 2002:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020811045852/http://eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_armor.htm

The trivials listed in the first link are very interesting aswell, and would imply you need to change those for the regular ornate at the same time as changing the banded. Unfortunately they don't have the exact trivials for some of the pieces, just a range.

[NegaStoat]

Just a quick question - when the revised Blacksmithing Trivials are added to the server, will there be something in the Announcements section regarding it? Thanks.

[Thulack]

Just a quick question - when the revised Blacksmithing Trivials are added to the server, will there be something in the Announcements section regarding it? Thanks.

It will most likely be listed in the patch notes for whatever patch it makes it into and listed in the news and announcements section like all the other patch notes. And yes i do know very rarely something is changed but not in patch notes but thats by mistake not on purpose.

[nilbog]

Just a quick question - when the revised Blacksmithing Trivials are added to the server, will there be something in the Announcements section regarding it? Thanks.

In the patch notes.

Regular recipe should be in game, extra-cris... I mean electrum, gold, and platinum ornate should not be. For the comparison, look at the differences under 'Ornate Chain' between these two snapshots of EQTraders:

June 2nd, 2002:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020602043138/http://www.eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_armor.htm

August 11th, 2002:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020811045852/http://eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_armor.htm

The trivials listed in the first link are very interesting aswell, and would imply you need to change those for the regular ornate at the same time as changing the banded. Unfortunately they don't have the exact trivials for some of the pieces, just a range.

I see. I wish this was already set up properly, but it seems tradeskills are hard to research and almost no one knows about them. I'd like for these changes to happen at once.

So there should be no electrum, gold, or platinum ornate chain. I suppose the fairest way to go about that is to convert existing pieces into regular ornate chain.

Continuing on, from http://web.archive.org/web/20020811045852/http://eqtraders.com/secrets/smithing_armor.htm, it shows the trivials for ornate chain as the following:



gorget, bracers, mask 155
belt, sleeves > 165 <=168
coif 170
boots, gloves, mantle 182
leggings >166 <=175
tunic 195
cloak 222

Currently on the server, they are:

Ornate Chain Boots 122
Ornate Chain Bracelet 122
Ornate Chain Cloak 128
Ornate Chain Coif 132
Ornate Chain Gloves 128
Ornate Chain Gorget 119
Ornate Chain Leggings 135
Ornate Chain Mail 142
Ornate Chain Mantle 122
Ornate Chain Skirt 122
Ornate Chain Sleeves 122
Ornate Chain Veil 116


Is everyone in agreement these need to be changed?

[Vandy]

Yes the various ornate armor should be consolidated into the normal non-metal enhanced version and the trivials should be adjusted accordingly.

[Vega]

I think that's right. It might not be what you want to hear, but it does seem from those links like maybe the fine plate needs to be changed aswell.

Nilbog, this actually brings up a question I had while thinking about this thread. I've only been on the server for a year or so. But I remember when I first started, looking at the wiki and how under blacksmithing they even have separate columns for p99 trivial vs classic trivial. I always assumed this issue had been brought up in a bug report before, but it had just never gone through for one reason or another. Is this really the first bug report thread made on the subject?

[nilbog]

I think that's right. It might not be what you want to hear, but it does seem from those links like maybe the fine plate needs to be changed aswell.

Nilbog, this actually brings up a question I had while thinking about this thread. I've only been on the server for a year or so. But I remember when I first started, looking at the wiki and how under blacksmithing they even have separate columns for p99 trivial vs classic trivial. I always assumed this issue had been brought up in a bug report before, but it had just never gone through for one reason or another. Is this really the first bug report thread made on the subject?

Not sure. Developers do not read or edit the wiki, so it's probably unreported bug issues. I don't think any of us know a lot about tradeskills, so we fix these as they are reported.

Looks like next patch will include substantial blacksmithing nerfs.

Fine plate:

fine plate collar 166 -> 182
fine plate bracer 168 -> 208
fine plate girdle 168 -> 228
fine plate boots 168 -> 228
fine plate vambraces 175 -> 228
fine plate pauldron 168 -> 222
fine plate gauntlets 175 -> 235
fine plate greaves/bp 182 -> 228
fine plate helm 179 -> 188
cloak 175 -> 222
visor 168 -> 195

edit: also these shields:

round shield 68 -> 115
targ shield 79 -> 135
kite shield 82 -> 155
tower shield 88 -> 175
buckler shield 62 -> 82

[kaev]

LOL, those aren't nerfs, they're enhancements! Skilling Blacksmithing was annoyingly expensive here with the low banded & fineplate trivials, but I couldn't recall when they had changed on live and wasn't really motivated to research the question since everybody was working with the same limitations anyway. This will be very cool if/when a server synced to classic timeline is opened.

[nilbog]

Pending update,

Ornate, Fine Plate, and shield trivials increased.

Ornate electrum, gold, and platinum chain recipes disabled.

Existing pieces of Ornate Electrum, Gold, and Platinum armors will be converted to regular Ornate chain pieces of the corresponding sizes.

[Ravhin]

...looking at the wiki and how under blacksmithing they even have separate columns for p99 trivial vs classic trivial. I always assumed this issue had been brought up in a bug report before, but it had just never gone through for one reason or another. Is this really the first bug report thread made on the subject?

While researching all this blacksmithing content for the wiki I discovered these discrepancies (that almost all trivials on p99 were set to "modern" values and that these were obviously different than they had been in classic).

I never put in a huge bug report on all these because, as Nilbog says, these numbers are very hard to track down and I wasn't 100% sure about anything (also you can see many of these numbers are upper limits/lower limits/uncertain in some way).

Looking briefly, it seems that the new numbers mentioned in this post (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1128037&postcount=22) agree with the "classic trivials" column from the wiki.

In general I would then say that this is just the tip of the iceberg, you can see (especially in cultural blacksmithing) that there are probably a few hundred more trivials that could use updating.

[nilbog]

In general I would then say that this is just the tip of the iceberg, you can see (especially in cultural blacksmithing) that there are probably a few hundred more trivials that could use updating.

Agreed.

If we can get some interest in this, I'm willing to query what the existing trivials are, and post those up for comparison. Need a list of items.

[Vandy]

Are the trivials just the defaults from the peq database?

[olderj]

It appears that the trivials for "small" size banded mail are still at their pre-update values. I did not check "large".

Huffle

[Vandy]

It appears that the trivials for "small" size banded mail are still at their pre-update values. I did not check "large".

Huffle

Looks like only the normal size versions trivial was changed.

'small banded belt', 'small banded boots', 'small banded bracer', 'small banded cloak', 'small banded gauntlets', 'small banded gorget', 'small banded helm', 'small banded leggings', 'small banded mail', 'small banded mantle', 'small banded mask', 'small banded sleeves', 'large banded belt', 'large banded boots', 'large banded bracer', 'large banded cloak', 'large banded gauntlets', 'large banded gorget', 'large banded helm', 'large banded leggings', 'large banded mail', 'large banded mantle', 'large banded mask', 'large banded sleeves'


3083 large banded belt 95
3088 large banded boots 95
3085 large banded bracer 95
3082 large banded cloak 102
3089 large banded gauntlets 102
3079 large banded gorget 92
3077 large banded helm 106
3087 large banded leggings 108
3080 large banded mail 115
3081 large banded mantle 95
3078 large banded mask 90
3084 large banded sleeves 102
3071 small banded belt 95
3076 small banded boots 95
3073 small banded bracer 95
3070 small banded cloak 102
3074 small banded gauntlets 102
3067 small banded gorget 92
3065 small banded helm 106
3075 small banded leggings 108
3068 small banded mail 115
3069 small banded mantle 95
3066 small banded mask 90
3072 small banded sleeves 102

[nilbog]

Are the trivials just the defaults from the peq database?

No. It will be for some.. but after 4 years, no :T

It appears that the trivials for "small" size banded mail are still at their pre-update values. I did not check "large".

Huffle

Fixed, pending update.

[Vandy]

I would also assume that the same applies to fine plate sizes of large and small although I have not check it in game yet.



'small fine plate collar', 'small fine plate bracer', 'small fine plate girdle', 'small fine plate boots', 'small fine plate vambraacers', 'small fine plate pauldron ', 'small fine plate gauntlets', 'small fine plate greaves', 'small fine plate breastplate', 'small fine plate helm', 'large fine plate collar', 'large fine plate bracer', 'large fine plate girdle', 'large fine plate boots', 'large fine plate vambraacers', 'large fine plate pauldron ', 'large fine plate gauntlets', 'large fine plate greaves', 'large fine plate breastplate', 'large fine plate helm'


21036 large fine plate boots 168
21033 large fine plate bracer 168
21027 large fine plate collar 166
21034 large fine plate gauntlets 175
21031 large fine plate girdle 168
21035 large fine plate greaves 179
21025 large fine plate helm 179
21029 large fine plate pauldron 168
21024 small fine plate boots 168
21021 small fine plate bracer 168
21015 small fine plate collar 166
21022 Small Fine Plate Gauntlets 175
21019 small fine plate girdle 168
21023 small fine plate greaves 179
21013 small fine plate helm 179
21017 small fine plate pauldron 168

[nilbog]

I would also assume that the same applies to fine plate sizes of large and small although I have not check it in game yet.

Fine plate and Ornate Chain are already properly implemented.

[olderj]

I checked the large banded and fine plate tonight and it appeared to be at the correct (updated) trivial levels.

Huffle

[MrSparkle001]

Does this mean guides like http://web.archive.org/web/20010412135013/http://www.eqbible.com/bbg/train.html are accurate now?

[Vandy]

Does this mean guides like http://web.archive.org/web/20010412135013/http://www.eqbible.com/bbg/train.html are accurate now?

Yes that guide should be accurate to follow now that some of the trivials have been changed to classic levels.

[nilbog]

If needed I can go through all of them and try to sort out what is relevant to P99 and present a list by either item name or item number depending on which you prefer.

This can be a community effort if needed. If I can get a list of exact item names I can create a list of what is craftable, what shouldn't be, and at what trivials the existing should be in our era.

[Ravhin]

We can make a list of items, but see e.g.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Cultural_Tradeskills:_Dwarf

for "Imbued Dwarven Chain X". All I can say (based on my previous research) is that the p99 trivials are way too low for the main armor pieces (I suspect they were >240 or >250 for most cultural imbued armor pieces in classic). But, there are no exact numbers, only lower limits.

Another complication, e.g. "Dwarven Plate X (Enchanted Imbued)" have current trivials consistent with the classic trivials, but I'm not sure they shouldn't be higher. This is demonstrated by the "Enchanter Dwarven Plate X" pieces, some of which have consistent trivials, but some must be wrong, leading me to the conclusion they are all too low.

Are you willing to guess (and/or have some other source for these) at new trivials when there are only lower bounds? If so we can proceed.

[Estu]

Today I got blacksmithing up to 115 with skewers, then made a full suit of large banded sans tunic and gloves and everything was already trivial.

[Thulack]

Today I got blacksmithing up to 115 with skewers, then made a full suit of large banded sans tunic and gloves and everything was already trivial.

Look about 6 posts up

[Estu]

Look about 6 posts up

Whoops.

[MrSparkle001]

So then how are we supposed to train smithing? If banded is trivial at about 115 and most fine plate is now trivial in the 200s, what's in between? I know pots and sewing kits to 135 (I just did pots to 122 and will do sewing kits soon to 135) but why were fine plate trivials increased but not banded?

I ask because these two quotes are contradictory:

I checked the large banded and fine plate tonight and it appeared to be at the correct (updated) trivial levels.

Huffle

Today I got blacksmithing up to 115 with skewers, then made a full suit of large banded sans tunic and gloves and everything was already trivial.

The updated banded levels should be:

banded gorget 102
banded mask 135
banded belt 135
banded bracer 102
banded boots 135
banded mantle 168
banded cloak 175
banded gauntlets 168
banded sleeves 102
banded leggings 168
banded helm 135

[Thulack]

So then how are we supposed to train smithing? If banded is trivial at about 115 and most fine plate is now trivial in the 200s, what's in between? I know pots and sewing kits to 135 (I just did pots to 122 and will do sewing kits soon to 135) but why were fine plate trivials increased but not banded?

I ask because these two quotes are contradictory:





The updated banded levels should be:

banded gorget 102
banded mask 135
banded belt 135
banded bracer 102
banded boots 135
banded mantle 168
banded cloak 175
banded gauntlets 168
banded sleeves 102
banded leggings 168
banded helm 135

Large and small banded are still at the original values by mistake. You can make regular banded armor which has the updated trivials to raise blacksmithing til next patch when the large and small will get the newer trivials as well. Olderj was just mistaken on the large banded being fixed because its not obviously.

[MrSparkle001]

Large and small banded are still at the original values by mistake. You can make regular banded armor which has the updated trivials to raise blacksmithing til next patch when the large and small will get the newer trivials as well. Olderj was just mistaken on the large banded being fixed because its not obviously.

Oh large and small aren't fixed yet. Sucks because I'm doing large. I don't even know where an ogre sk can get medium molds.

And how long will the update take? It looks like there's months between updates, and I don't want to wait months to continue training blacksmithing.

[MrSparkle001]

Sewing kits are trivial at 122. They should be 135 if we are switching to old trivials.

[nilbog]

Sewing kits are trivial at 122. They should be 135 if we are switching to old trivials.

Fixed, pending update

Small sewing kit -> 135
Fierdal Sewing Kit -> 162

[nilbog]

Bump for more blacksmithing trivial research.

I'm sure it will take a while to get them all done, but I'm willing to work on them.

[Sylexis]

Bump for more blacksmithing trivial research.

I'm sure it will take a while to get them all done, but I'm willing to work on them.

I can try, have we looked into arrowheads yet? It's all post trivial for me so it's hard to check.

[Munkh]

ok I know this is an old topic, and I really did read through these posts. So is Ornate Electrum/Gold/Platinum no longer able to combine on the P99 server at present?

[Buellen]

its still works and you can use it to level bs some if you wish. it is probably just faster to do fine steel plate now check out wiki it as currently trivials and how to best skill up.

[Vega]

ok I know this is an old topic, and I really did read through these posts. So is Ornate Electrum/Gold/Platinum no longer able to combine on the P99 server at present?

Yes, only the regular ornate is left now.

[Emeryn]

So banded is now almost 3x as hard as it originally was to craft? Why was that instituted? Leveling BS was hard enough lol

[Emeryn]

Where is there reliable informatuon on all recipes for all tradeskills with P99 specific trivial numbers? It's important to know more than just a few of the combines. Sometimes the journey is more important that the destination. Thanks!