Wizards...what were they thinking?

[Morningbreath]

I looked at the spell lineup back in May or June of 1999 and I thought, wow this looks like alot of fun. Started a wizard right out of the box and really did everything I could to learn the class and how to use it's spells.

First thing I find out is all of the AE spells are completely useless in groups. You just did not cast them unless you felt like being an ass(and getting kicked). So from then on a majority(wizards get more AE spells than single target DDs) of my damage spells went completely untouched for the next 30-odd levels.

If I could have somehow bounced those nukes off the tank and had the mobs register that damage as coming from the tank instead my clothie caster, I would have been in hog heaven. Obviously there would have to have been a non-stacking limitiation similar to what DOTs had to keep players from having 4 wizards in every group.

So what do you do when there's no groups available as a wizard? You try to solo. With only root--no pets, no sow, not even snare. You would think a cold spell would at least have a slowing effect!

Everybody tells new wizards to get jboots. Riiiight. Jboots drop off a 34 mob and unlike twink melee gear, they aren't tradeable. If wizards are going to be so damn group-unfriendly then at least give them a self-only run speed boost in the early stages.

Anyway, playing on this server's been a blast but because it follows the original game to the letter it brings back some of the frustration I had with that dev team. It's a shame that Everquest turned into such a melee-fest that even a pure magic damage class like the wizard became obsolete in groups by the first expansion.

[Lojik]

Wizards 1-29 are very weak admittedly. They solo pretty well though 29+ and 55+ they are great for AOE groups and on raids. Traditional groups are not their forte.
I will agree with you though that many spells have 0 use for a wizard (any alkabor or rain spells plus others.) It is a bit of a shame

[Tecmos Deception]

It's a shame that Everquest turned into such a melee-fest that even a pure magic damage class like the wizard became obsolete in groups by the first expansion.

Eh. A typical grinding group is only one small part of the whole of EQ.

Wizards do just fine soloing (yeah pre-snare sucks but they are still better off than any melee is for soloing, assuming no twinking), are great in AE groups at high levels, and are awesome in raids. They've got teleports and roots and stuns and snares besides some gimmicky stuff. Their toolbox isn't overflowing like a necros or enchanters, but hating on them overall just because they don't fit too well (they aren't TERRIBLE in groups, just not good) into normal xp grinding groups is wrong.

[Estu]

FYI, find a bard to duo with and you can make good use of those PBAEs.

[Morningbreath]

Eh. A typical grinding group is only one small part of the whole of EQ.

Wizards do just fine soloing (yeah pre-snare sucks but they are still better off than any melee is for soloing, assuming no twinking), are great in AE groups at high levels, and are awesome in raids. They've got teleports and roots and stuns and snares besides some gimmicky stuff. Their toolbox isn't overflowing like a necros or enchanters, but hating on them overall just because they don't fit too well (they aren't TERRIBLE in groups, just not good) into normal xp grinding groups is wrong.

You can't assume no twinking for a melee lol. Hell if I knew buying a lifetime supply of SOW potions would balance my class I might have looked at the whole thing differently.

Wizards should be good in normal xp grinding groups. Emergent gameplay is great but it shouldn't be a requirement to make a class functional. Quadkiting gave the developers an excuse to throw in the towel and concentrate on turning melees into gods in groups that wizards couldn't even hope to compete with.

[diplo]

play on the red server so you can put those spells to use.

[Lojik]

You can't assume no twinking for a melee lol. Hell if I knew buying a lifetime supply of SOW potions would balance my class I might have looked at the whole thing differently.

Wizards should be good in normal xp grinding groups. Emergent gameplay is great but it shouldn't be a requirement to make a class functional. Quadkiting gave the developers an excuse to throw in the towel and concentrate on turning melees into gods in groups that wizards couldn't even hope to compete with.

Why should wizards be good in normal experience groups? They already excel in so many other situations. Being able to teleport is very useful, and wizards will be top DPS on most raid targets in Kunark. Once you hit 29 you'll solo better than most classes as well.

What level is your wiz? Wizards are really an example of a class that is weak early on but very powerful at high levels. Weak early on as well because you can't really twink one that well (barring a few exceptions) and melee is a lot easier to twink. On a fresh server where low level melee don't have access to high level gear, I think you'd find a wizard to be much better in an experience group. This can also be a bonus too, as wizards are not nearly as gear dependent as probably 10 or 11 of the other 13 classes (mage/necro below them maybe?)

Be patient and your days of 10,000 DPS in an aoe group will come soon enough!

[Raavak]

Root nuke until level 16... Hell you can tank & nuke almost until then with just a snake fang. At 16, if you have balls, beg for sow or buy sow potions then quad kite with pillar of fire. Once you get 29 quad'ing gets easy.

[JackFlash]

I've played a wizard since 2000. I couldn't disagree with you more. If you want to see more of your spells in action take chances, think outside the box, and get levels. Good luck!

[Morningbreath]

Why should wizards be good in normal experience groups?

Wow.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[phacemeltar]

just because the noobs u group with dont want you to ae doesnt necessarily mean you shouldnt. just add a /w to the enc saying "im about to break all ur mez" to your ae macro

[stewe]

"So what do you do when there's no groups available as a wizard? You try to solo. With only root--no pets, no sow, not even snare. You would think a cold spell would at least have a slowing effect!"

wizards get an AoE snare called bond of force at level 29.

[Lojik]

Wow.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Note that "good" is a relative term...not every class can be the best at something. Wizards can do okay in a lot of standard experience groups, just a lot of other classes are better in any given group situation. This is much less true if on a server that is relatively young and low levels don't have access to great gear. I'd imagine that wizards were not turned away from exp groups in the early days of p99, although many were probably doing much better solo so they didn't group? I was not around so I can only guess. A choice between adding a rogue or a wizard was probably much harder back then.

Like I said before, there are many other situations besides your traditional exp group where wizard is one of, if not the ideal class, so complaining about them not being so great in one situation is rather silly in my opinion.

[Morningbreath]

Note that "good" is a relative term...not every class can be the best at something. Wizards can do okay in a lot of standard experience groups, just a lot of other classes are better in any given group situation.

A class without heals, buffs or tanking ability should be as good as any other class at doing damage. Otherwise you might as well roll a druid. And most people do. ;)

This is much less true if on a server that is relatively young and low levels don't have access to great gear. I'd imagine that wizards were not turned away from exp groups in the early days of p99, although many were probably doing much better solo so they didn't group? I was not around so I can only guess. A choice between adding a rogue or a wizard was probably much harder back then.

Obviously starting on a new server isn't an option on P99...the damage has already been done. :)

Like I said before, there are many other situations besides your traditional exp group where wizard is one of, if not the ideal class, so complaining about them not being so great in one situation is rather silly in my opinion.

Many other situations? Apart from once in a blue moon AE groups and dragging mobs around a secluded zone every 10 minutes, I really can't think of "many" situations.

I play an enchanter and a shaman now and I enjoy what they do but I really would like to see magic go back to being something that people seek out for reasons other than to heal and buff twinked melees. I respect that the P99 devs have stuck with the original warts-and-all Vision, it's just a shame Verant didn't get it right back in the day.

[JackFlash]

it's just a shame Verant didn't get it right back in the day.

Get what right? You make it sound like you could have done better. Doubt it.

[gotrocks]

dude. wizards are awesome. granted, I'm playing mine on r99, and if I had to level one on blue without xp bonus i'd lose my mind (ONLY if I didn't have jboots or sow pots), but i'm having an absolute blast with mine, and that's not counting pvp. I can't wait to drop an ice comet on someone xping after sneaking up on them invis.

[JackFlash]

I'm playing mine on r99, and if I had to level one on blue without xp bonus i'd lose my mind

I'm doing it now....it doesn't seem nearly as bad as it was on Live. But yeah, wizards are awesome. OP wants a wizard that can heal, buff, CC, and give you a happy ending.

[Splorf22]

Between lures and ports Wizards are one of the best raiding classes. On top of that they can level to 60 pretty easily with quad kiting. On the whole I think Wizards are much stronger than Druids, but they are much more specialized and a little boring. The problem becomes if you want to play a wizard and have any sort of social interaction before 60 :D

Also from what I hear Verant continued to have balance problems pretty much through the whole length of the game.

[Picked]

Had a Wizard on live, played him for 8 or 9 years. Have one on P99. And I understand what you mean that some spells have little to no use. But that doesn't mean the class is useless and that they made them wrong. There are ways to utilize those spells if you really want to do something other than root/nuke.

Wizards are weak at low levels. Hell they are weak at high levels. But it doesn't mean they don't serve a purpose. And a rather nice one. Virtually they were the kings of DPS for quite a long time in EQ. I remember being the top parser and trading spots with a fellow Wizard on tons of parses.

They are glass cannons. Our job is to do high amounts of damage, generate a lot of aggro, and port. That's it. Just like a clerics job is to heal, a pal/sk/wars job is to tank. We DPS. Why should we carry 2 or 3 different roles? We aren't hybrids.

[Morningbreath]

Get what right? You make it sound like you could have done better. Doubt it.

Easily. Wizard damage could have been made to scale with the pull rate of the group. Of course that would have required some testing and parsing to balance correctly but it wouldn't have been rocket science.

[Lojik]

A class without heals, buffs or tanking ability should be as good as any other class at doing damage. Otherwise you might as well roll a druid. And most people do.

And if you notice, many people stop playing druids 51+ cause they can't get groups as easily + they aren't as useful on raids as wizards. Check out the population breakdown of level 60's, wizards are at 7%...the same as druids.

Obviously starting on a new server isn't an option on P99...the damage has already been done

But your premise was that Verant got this wrong from the start. At the start, wizards would be competing for groups with non-twinked melee so this wasn't as big of an issue. It's not like they could foresee the coming of p99 and how long Kunark would be around (on this server,) nor would they care if they could foresee this outcome. People hating on wizards in exp groups is largely a byproduct of the state that p99 is in as opposed to the design of the class.

Many other situations? Apart from once in a blue moon AE groups and dragging mobs around a secluded zone every 10 minutes, I really can't think of "many" situations.

If you plan on playing for a decent amount of time, leveling from 1-29 is only a small part of the leveling process on p99. 51-60 takes about as much time as 1-50, and for most people 30-50 takes longer than 1-29. For wizards it's slightly different, as leveling gets easier at level 29 with snare, then at 34 with circle of force. Low 50's are also easy to solo in, and 55+ it really is not hard to get an aoe group (and 55+ often takes up 1/2 of people's leveling time on this game.) Solo exp is almost always quicker than group experience, save for awesome duo's I think (which is really limited to a few classes.)

Again, I ask you what level is your wizard? Think of leveling up to 29 as the "hazing" portion of your wizards career. If you can make it through, you'll become part of the wizard fraternity, and life really does get a lot easier. Almost all wizards I've met have been pretty cool and helpful, I feel like moreso than other classes (I know this is just generalizing.) And once you get to 60, you'll still be desired for raiding/raid mobilization/ae groups moreso than a lot of other 60 classes.

[Morningbreath]

If you plan on playing for a decent amount of time, leveling from 1-29 is only a small part of the leveling process on p99. 51-60 takes about as much time as 1-50, and for most people 30-50 takes longer than 1-29. For wizards it's slightly different, as leveling gets easier at level 29 with snare, then at 34 with circle of force. Low 50's are also easy to solo in, and 55+ it really is not hard to get an aoe group (and 55+ often takes up 1/2 of people's leveling time on this game.) Solo exp is almost always quicker than group experience, save for awesome duo's I think (which is really limited to a few classes.)

I'm still waiting for your "many" examples where wizards are better than other classes in groups.

Again, I ask you what level is your wizard? Think of leveling up to 29 as the "hazing" portion of your wizards career. If you can make it through, you'll become part of the wizard fraternity, and life really does get a lot easier. Almost all wizards I've met have been pretty cool and helpful, I feel like moreso than other classes (I know this is just generalizing.) And once you get to 60, you'll still be desired for raiding/raid mobilization/ae groups moreso than a lot of other 60 classes

Everquest is a game. It's not the jr high gymn class where we pick on the new kid with low self esteem. Wizards didn't need to be "hazed", they needed to be balanced as a solo caster or buffed to the level of damage that melee were putting out in groups. It's as simple as that.

[Splorf22]

If wizards put out rogue-like sustained damage in XP groups, in addition to root/stun/ports/higher burst damage, there would be no reason to play a rogue. Edit: Just to recap a bit:

1. Wizards are probably the easiest class to level to 60 in terms of time actually spent in front of the computer. 1-29 is rough, but then you can quad kite and do homework or chores or whatnot while you med up. Once you hit 56, you can go to Chardok.
2. Wizards are the single best raid class for Kunark, bar none. Only Rogues with Avatar, Duellist, and some luck can come close for pure DPS, and unlike Rogues Wizards are critical for mobilization. Velious will make them a bit weaker, but bane spells will keep them in the hunt for top DPS, and they still have the mobilization ways
3. Ports are a huge convenience.

So sure, a necromancer or a magician is much better in a duo or an XP group. They can also solo reasonably well. But when was the last time you heard a raid guild say WE NEED MORE NECROMANCERS! Or, compare vs a rogue. Rogues are great in groups . . . but they can't solo at all. Nor can they port.

Again: Wizards are not a weak class. They are very specialized and kinda boring, but not weak.

[Lojik]

If wizards put out rogue-like sustained damage in XP groups, in addition to root/stun/ports/higher burst damage, there would be no reason to play a rogue. Edit: Just to recap a bit:

1. Wizards are probably the easiest class to level to 60 in terms of time actually spent in front of the computer. 1-29 is rough, but then you can quad kite and do homework or chores or whatnot while you med up. Once you hit 56, you can go to Chardok.
2. Wizards are the single best raid class for Kunark, bar none. Only Rogues with Avatar, Duellist, and some luck can come close for pure DPS, and unlike Rogues Wizards are critical for mobilization. Velious will make them a bit weaker, but bane spells will keep them in the hunt for top DPS, and they still have the mobilization ways
3. Ports are a huge convenience.

So sure, a necromancer or a magician is much better in a duo or an XP group. They can also solo reasonably well. But when was the last time you heard a raid guild say WE NEED MORE NECROMANCERS! Or, compare vs a rogue. Rogues are great in groups . . . but they can't solo at all. Nor can they port.

Again: Wizards are not a weak class. They are very specialized and kinda boring, but not weak.

Apparently none of this matters because they are not strong relative to other classes in a traditional experience group

I'm still waiting for your "many" examples where wizards are better than other classes in groups.

I never said that.

Like I said before, there are many other situations besides your traditional exp group where wizard is one of, if not the ideal class

A traditional experience group ie a tank,healer,cc,dps etc. is only one of the many situations you can find yourself in on this server, and usually is slower than soloing, especially as a wizard. I didn't try to group until aoe group level because the exp was much better soloing. Other situations you might find yourself in: solo exp, duo exp (wizard + bard or wiz + rog can be great duos), standard group experience, aoe group exp, raiding. I'll leave out farming but wizards do ok, probably in the middle of the pack for farming money camps. But of those thats what, 5 situations? Wizard holds its own for 4/5.

Everquest is a game. It's not the jr high gymn class where we pick on the new kid with low self esteem. Wizards didn't need to be "hazed", they needed to be balanced as a solo caster or buffed to the level of damage that melee were putting out in groups. It's as simple as that.

You still won't answer my question as to what level your wizard is. Life is hard at lower levels, but better at higher levels where frankly life kinda sucks for leveling for most classes.

[Vadd]

First class to 50 on EQ Live was a Wizard, no? With like Lvl 24 spells... I heard.

[JackFlash]

OP just doesn't have enough experience playing a wizard to know what he's talking about. You have to be creative.

I've had no problems finding EXP groups when I really want one. Use your /w all "xxxx zone" and start asking to be put on lists for camps. Or better yet port yourself somewhere and start asking around. If that fails, make your own.

Otherwise go play some other game with multiclass watered down crap. This is classic EQ son.

[fullmetalcoxman]

I'm still waiting for your "many" examples where wizards are better than other classes in groups.



Everquest is a game. It's not the jr high gymn class where we pick on the new kid with low self esteem. Wizards didn't need to be "hazed", they needed to be balanced as a solo caster or buffed to the level of damage that melee were putting out in groups. It's as simple as that.

Sounds like you want to play a rogue.

[Picked]

Wizards and Rogues are two entirely different DPS comparisons. A Wizards DPS is burst, rogue's is sustained. In a group setting well timed nukes can do a lot more than "just dps" They can cancel out a healing mob, or gate mob. They can do away with the need of snare.

So comparing the two as far as DPS is concerned is hard because of how differently they both perform. Can a Rogue unload an entire tank of mana spamming spells getting mobs dead faster to prevent wipe? No. They are what they are.

I play both a wizard and rogue and enjoy them much the same. They are both great DPS and they both contribute just fine to a group. Both have areas in which they excel and ones they don't.

By saying one is useless because another one is better in a certain area just isn't true.

[gotrocks]

Wizards and Rogues are two entirely different DPS comparisons. A Wizards DPS is burst, rogue's is sustained. In a group setting well timed nukes can do a lot more than "just dps" They can cancel out a healing mob, or gate mob. They can do away with the need of snare.

So comparing the two as far as DPS is concerned is hard because of how differently they both perform. Can a Rogue unload an entire tank of mana spamming spells getting mobs dead faster to prevent wipe? No. They are what they are.

I play both a wizard and rogue and enjoy them much the same. They are both great DPS and they both contribute just fine to a group. Both have areas in which they excel and ones they don't.

By saying one is useless because another one is better in a certain area just isn't true.

picked makes a really, really good point here. everyone always bashes on wizards because they aren't 'sustained dps' but they dont really need to be. there are plenty of classes that do that already. the wiz is there for when you NEED that mob dead right now, and two ice comets or conflargs are exactly what you need to make it happen.

think op just needs to roll a different class and quit qq'ing.

[gotrocks]

Oh, and we all just need to stop arguing with OP because he's not going to get it, nor does he think that we get it.

But we do, op. We do. You just don't :D

[kaos057]

You would think a cold spell would at least have a slowing effect!

Wrong game.

[koros]

First class to 50 on live was a rogue.

[Borador]

The OP upsets me for two reasons... He is complaining about class design on a 14 year old emulated server that has been stuck in Kunark forever which just seems ridiculous. Secondly, he is not alone... (sadly) other people have cried for equality among classes too, and it has IMO destroyed many games. Its the cry of the casual who wants to be given everything and can't accept any penalties while also not capitalizing on their advantages.

Smart wizards are great in groups and only truly outshined in a grinding single pull low blue xp farming group. Even twinked melee on p99 today cannot consistently burn a mob down on demand. If you can't see the benefit of burning down a caster, extra mob, or even con that beats on the tank a bit too much... Then I don't know what to say. Take your water down the classes opinions elsewhere.

[doeda]

tank pulls more mobs than he can handle and healer is lom? root some, assist and burn targets, loot cash, rinse repeat...after done exp'ing port group to WC --infinite hugs.
would take a "good" wizard over an enchanter/druid/shaman any day unless they were healing but that is a different story

[Tecmos Deception]

would take a "good" wizard over an enchanter/druid/shaman any day unless they were healing but that is a different story

You haven't played with "good" enchanters or druids.


I don't disagree that a well-played wizard can be productive in xp groups. But druids are 3/4 the nukers of a wizard while also being able to heal, regen, DS, CHARM ANIMALS, and more. And enchanters nukes aren't fantastic, but with the laundry list of stuff enchanters bring to the table (even if there is already an enchanter in the group), you're just silly for wanting a wizard instead of a chanter for a generic grinding group.

[gotrocks]

^unfortunately tecmos is right, but once you have tank + heals + cc, there's no reason why any group should turn down a good wizard.