Item loot: it CAN be good for the server!

[Pudge]

I think item loot really can work if the focus is on making it FUN and not grief city where ppl just run and bag their gear from naked mages.

Proposing that lootable items include:

1) all expendable clickies (golem wands, pumice, larrikans mask, conflag wands, all player made pots, all store bought pots, etc - anything with a finite number of charges that isn't no-drop. Aon would not be loot able because it has unlimited charges)

2) all stackable items (bone chips, gems, arrows/boulders even if equipped, food/water, etc.)

3) am I missing anything? ....

Letting ppl loot clickies and stackables gives them SOMETHING, and it may even be a pretty cool thing.. but for whoever lost it, it is not grief-inducing, because they would have used it up at some point anyway. Just gets expensive if every time you die you lose your 10-dose cure pots. Or you could go with single or 5-charges to reduce your loss, but at the expense of bag space. Same with stackable items. Maybe a mage spreads out all his malachites among his bags so a whole stack can't be taken.. anyway. You guys have any ideas on what a FUN way to implement item loot would be? And by fun I mean, the killer has the joy of looking for goodies to loot, but the guy who died will only suffer minor annoyance and not depression inducing sadness when his fungi/manastone goes away because he didn't run from the naked mage and bag it quick enough.

(Also, coin loot of course stays in.)

EDIT:
I guess it wasn't clear enough from the above.. lootable items would NOT include equippable gear of any kind, UNLESS it was an EXPENDABLE, DROPPABLE clickie. for example, Larrikan's mask is a shitty mask that you can equipp that has 10 charges of invis. you could loot that off someone's mask slot. that shield with 10-charge of rune is also another wearable item that could be looted, etc. all other items could not be looted.

If you guys think its too griefy to allow even 2 or 3 "good" items to be looted (like that rune-shield) then.. we coudl make it only BAGGED stackable/clickables. (It was not my original intent that any equipped items would be lootable. But what i described dis allow for the occasional snag of worn gear, and I kinda like it. most ppl wouldnt even consider trying to loot equipped gear, b/c 99% of the time, the bags would have the only lootables)

[Agatha]

pudge, the gang is back for simulated patch days, hollar at your boy in game.

[Potus]

Item loot never works, it's inherently terrible because Everquest is a gear-centric game.

So no, that's actually terrible because now instead of people stopping and bagging they'll for sure lose their gear (and thus not play the server).

[Pudge]

They'll for sure lose their... water flasks.. sow pots.. or bone chips, and this will make them quit?

Did you even read my post? :(

Edit: Hrrm maybe you though I was suggesting ALL these things should be lootable at once? I mean that only 1 item/stack could be looted per kill. You'd have to choose whether you wanted to loot this Evil troll's food, or his water.. can't have both..

[Smedy]

Full item loot imo, even no drops

confirmed would save the server

[Potus]

No I thought you were suggesting we had item loot + these items in bags.

Full item loot imo, even no drops

confirmed would save the server

LOL

[runlvlzero]

I cant stress this enough. On a high pop server item loot gives naked people a reason to fight not naked people.

I pvpd today on a low level (unnamed) vs another low level unnamed. But it was fun. Until I ran out of pumice stones ;p but it would have been great if there were more people like us on both sides of that fight.

Naked. He would snare me and dot me, and I would pumice it off and run after him and he would train mobs cause he was a derp. And I would chase after him looking for where he zoned too. He couldnt do enough dmg to drop me down and it took him a few mins to eventually down me.

With another 2 people on each side the outcomes would have been infinitely more complex and unpredictable.

Gear is a bad thing for pvp servers. Gear that you can lord over and use to greif other players is even worse. FFA and this community encourages twinking to the max. Because people quit high level pvp when being tracked toothed and they get banned for any competitive play whatsoever. So they just farm and twink and pvp low levels. Yeah its fun. I had good battles with geared players in unrest too. But the best was naked mass pvp in zones like gfay, oasis, ec, innothule. SWAAAMP....

[Rec]

Save item loot for the supposed super hardcore red FFA server, not teams. They are the people who can handle that kind of thing and if it is such an amazing feature then surely it will help boost the popularity of the FFA server

[Aenor]

Rec confirmed bloob.

[heartbrand]

Item loot makes casters more powerful, a needed change to balance the incoming resist fix which will weaken them, creates a more vibrant economy, makes more types of items desirable creating more camps for people to fight over and more content to consume, etc. Only retards will run around in cloaks of flames and shot. It forces you to think hard every time you put on your froglok or tranix crown or your diamond jewelery. It makes no drop items more valuable etc.

[Absynthe2k5]

Gear is a bad thing for pvp servers. Gear that you can lord over and use to greif other players is even worse. FFA and this community encourages twinking to the max. Because people quit high level pvp when being tracked toothed and they get banned for any competitive play whatsoever. So they just farm and twink and pvp low levels. Yeah its fun. I had good battles with geared players in unrest too. But the best was naked mass pvp in zones like gfay, oasis, ec, innothule. SWAAAMP....

Very hard to balance any pvp without going the route of wow, they basically give gear out so folks will actually pvp and ya know it does work. Folks that have gladiator gear are rarely seen in BG's so most times fights are even gear wise, but those glad's usually hang out and grief all day long in open world pvp..

There are other ways to implement loot by making it good to fight evens/reds and bad to fight lower players. Enforce a decaying reward for getting killed, then move into negatives to discourage griefing, like negative points and even res like effects. If already geared they wont care about points on an alt but im sure they would hate having rez effects for 24 hours etc.

The things I see folks complain about most now are resists supposedly, game breaking clickies (which I assume they have no access to them due to not getting a decent pk/raid going themselves), and griefing.

Example Kimm keeps killing wizing cause he wasn't smart and waffle faced his keyboard. Kimm gets hit with a random effect after the 2cnd time killing wizing, 24 hour rez effect, or loses xp and pvp points, gets gated apon wizings death to jail or the middle of oot on the bottom of the ocean etc. Make it harsh so folks think twice about screwing with lower lvls. Endgame not so much but then again you wouldn't be able to grief a raid for long without your whole guild getting punished etc. (was thinking more for low lvl grief since raid/zone control is huge strategy for pvp)

[abacab-winner]

Item loot makes casters more powerful, a needed change to balance the incoming resist fix which will weaken them, creates a more vibrant economy, makes more types of items desirable creating more camps for people to fight over and more content to consume, etc. Only retards will run around in cloaks of flames and shot. It forces you to think hard every time you put on your froglok or tranix crown or your diamond jewelery. It makes no drop items more valuable etc.

HB just wants a wrecking crew of 6-naked wizard with nothing to lose, to run around Norrath spam rooting and nuking melees to steal that CoF that some poor monk spent weeks obtaining.

Item loot doesn't favor casters it favors bottoming out the population leaving only naked gank squads on the server; not going to level a warrior if I know that at any moment I'm not in a raid situation a group of naked casters will go full nuke/train mode just to steal my shit and RMT it.

So you're not PvPing for PvPing sake, you're forming death squads to remove loot from other players which 9/10 you won't even use yourself, because it's much lulz to destroy some poor cleric 6v1 and take his only +WIS item even though you're a wizard and never can can use nor want that +4 wisdom tunic; you're taking the item not for profit but to essentially rage out this cleric so he whines in OOC so you can laugh at him before he just quits.

Case and point, on Secrets discord box I farmed a full suit of kael cleric armor and delevel'd myself to use the 500 pt AoE heal clicky to plvl my guildmates in the Warrens, Cast and crew rolled in 6v1 and chain blinded/stunned/pet'd down my cleric and looted the full suit of armor then DELETED it, it wasn't cause he wanted the armor for his pals or anything of that nature he wanted to take the armor because I linked it in OOC then remove it completely from my possession to force me to camp this shit all over again; thus wasting two days of my time and making me not want to play the box again, because who wants to play the box when every time you obtain something there are a dozen naked casters dedicated to removing that item from your body just to link it to you before clicking that delete button.

Pals need to stop acting like item loot is anything but a hardcoded griefing tool.

[Absynthe2k5]

^^^ +1 I still think you could implement a loot system that doesn't effect gear but still make dying undesirable. Who wants to grind to 60 just to run around naked? Maybe make looting corpse you get the head of the victom so you can link that stuff in chat every time they act bad ass...you know ego is 90% of pvp :) /em Absynthe holds up soanso's bloody head for all to see his pvp failure.

[SamwiseRed]

item loot would be a terrible idea with the current level range and resist system in place. trust me i would have all to gain, i basically have ran around naked for a year, but all this would do is kill the server. you would need some serious changes in order for item loot to be 'fair'

[abacab-winner]

Again, it's fucking stupid.

I shouldn't have to spend 45 seconds bagging all my shit on my warrior reducing my nice 100MR down to 35MR just to fail killing a lev'd up naked wizard that will land everything he throws at me; I should be able to wear my resist gear so the wizard can't just naked ez-mode kill me.

[abacab-winner]

^^^ +1 I still think you could implement a loot system that doesn't effect gear but still make dying undesirable. Who wants to grind to 60 just to run around naked? Maybe make looting corpse you get the head of the victom so you can link that stuff in chat every time they act bad ass...you know ego is 90% of pvp :) /em Absynthe holds up soanso's bloody head for all to see his pvp failure.

SZ had a token system, you could loot a token and turn them in for random shit in cities.

[abacab-winner]

Only people that want item loot are pals that play casters exclusively, because it takes such sick skill to get sow/lev'd then running around a zone blind/nuking/rooting/dotting people to death.

You'll just have a bunch of shaman's ebolting you then taking off as you slowly die, you'll have a bunch of mages tapping Jboots and slapping earth pets on you then running away, a bunch of wizards sploiting Z-axis dropping rains on you from 1,000 ft in the sky.

Caster is ez mode PvP just like playing frost mages in WoW was ez mode PvP; when you can just perma-kite and CC melee to a point they can only get a shot in if they're lucky and score a root resist then you're setting up a failure of a server where the only time people log on their decked-out warrior is to do the mandatory weekly VP.

[runlvlzero]

SZ had a token system, you could loot a token and turn them in for random shit in cities.

The biggest deal and the reason people loved the tokens so much were they could drag their level 30 corpses out of a zone being overrun by level 60's.

No CSR or LNS policy issues. Because everyone had access to summon corpse spells. You just summoned and went elsewhere after it was all over and your side was completely dead.

[Pudge]

No I thought you were suggesting we had item loot + these items in bags.



LOL

Sorry I should have been more explicit. I meant these things (stackable items and items with charges) ONLY. No getting to loot equipped items or even other bagged items. And was suggesting this for the new teams server, not the existing R99.

Lots of ppl in here arguing "item loot sucks!" -- yes, I agree traditional item loot would be bad. I created this thread hoping ppl would try and come up with a way item loot could NOT suck. So guys -- any ideas? Or you all going to just have the same old discussions again :(.

Only got 1 suggestion in here so far, for "head loot" which I think could be fun, but remember with teams there is no ooc so shit talking will be at a minimum. But heads still sound cool. Better than nothing, and maybe they could be turned in for summon pots like on sullon.

[Pudge]

With tokens or heads though.. ppl will probably x-team (create alts) to farm them for whatever the turn in reward is :/. Would have to come up with a way to curb that

[Absynthe2k5]

Only people that want item loot are pals that play casters exclusively, because it takes such sick skill to get sow/lev'd then running around a zone blind/nuking/rooting/dotting people to death.

You'll just have a bunch of shaman's ebolting you then taking off as you slowly die, you'll have a bunch of mages tapping Jboots and slapping earth pets on you then running away, a bunch of wizards sploiting Z-axis dropping rains on you from 1,000 ft in the sky.

Caster is ez mode PvP just like playing frost mages in WoW was ez mode PvP; when you can just perma-kite and CC melee to a point they can only get a shot in if they're lucky and score a root resist then you're setting up a failure of a server where the only time people log on their decked-out warrior is to do the mandatory weekly VP.

Except warriors faceroll most classes now, well for awhile now :) (wow not eq)

[heartbrand]

Warriors are the weakest class in WoW currently not sure what you're talking about

[dogbarf]

Item loot pls.

PvP has no rush or excitement without it.

[runlvlzero]

Very hard to balance any pvp without going the route of wow, they basically give gear out so folks will actually pvp and ya know it does work. Folks that have gladiator gear are rarely seen in BG's so most times fights are even gear wise, but those glad's usually hang out and grief all day long in open world pvp..

There are other ways to implement loot by making it good to fight evens/reds and bad to fight lower players. Enforce a decaying reward for getting killed, then move into negatives to discourage griefing, like negative points and even res like effects. If already geared they wont care about points on an alt but im sure they would hate having rez effects for 24 hours etc.

The things I see folks complain about most now are resists supposedly, game breaking clickies (which I assume they have no access to them due to not getting a decent pk/raid going themselves), and griefing.

Example Kimm keeps killing wizing cause he wasn't smart and waffle faced his keyboard. Kimm gets hit with a random effect after the 2cnd time killing wizing, 24 hour rez effect, or loses xp and pvp points, gets gated apon wizings death to jail or the middle of oot on the bottom of the ocean etc. Make it harsh so folks think twice about screwing with lower lvls. Endgame not so much but then again you wouldn't be able to grief a raid for long without your whole guild getting punished etc. (was thinking more for low lvl grief since raid/zone control is huge strategy for pvp)

Yeah, but I don't care about the balance so much as even imbalanced its fun when your not two shotted or the other guy isn't immortal. The gear issue is not an issue of balance between classes. Its an issue of balance between progression. And via twinking EQ is very easy to manipulate this way.

Your example is good, but the system would also need built in PvE detection. Because kimm was not actually killing wizing, the mobs where.

I don't think a player should be penalized for getting kills in pvp. Though they should have diminishing rewards. Beyond the metagame of player agency, zone control, guild affiliation, friends and enemies, war. The game shouldn't actively reward pvp too much. Because it takes the focus away from sandbox and towards arena pvp. If there was an arena in this game yeah. It should be rewarding in the arena. Most people like item loot for riskvsreward. And also because it can and will level the playing field on a healthy server. But as servers age (and they all do) and become more corrupt or top heavy, item loot has diminishing returns and becomes a detriment to fair play.

Your right. But I don't think it makes sense for an EQ PvP perspective to look at balancing the game by "giving people items" or allowing them to use items to overcome any player in any situation. It takes the imbalance of EQ away and makes people one man armies.

Honestly I am not an Arena pvper that much and more an RP pvper. I pvp my enemies and protect my friends. Enemies are defined by players who I don't like, are competition, or are too great of a threat to let live. I don't need any reward other than knowing that who I choose to KOS makes a difference to myself and my friends. I'm one of the least KOS players on the server also. I also like people to have to consider very carefully how they pvp. Not just for shits and giggles it gets old fast. Because the people pvping for shits and giggles are more inclined to abuse cheap game mechanics to get their lulz. And it is not fighting a human player at that point its fighting an overpowered player who behaves in a completely predictable manner - Fungi + Epic + zerg straight at you and they don't even worry about countering what you do to them. Because they have nothing to loose and usually cant loose.

I also hate the requirement of having to have a high level character to pvp on the majority of classes on this server with months invested into farming just the right stuff and tradeskills. People should be able to jump in and be effective pvpers with a pumice stone and 2-3 peices of mr gear and buddies. And some classic weapons, and later on kunark weapons. A good jouster should have a slim chance against an epic wielding character at high level with fair gear, but at low level it just doesnt matter how much skill you have.

If all the above is TLDR. Right now pvp below level 50 is a Zero Sum Game.

[NotKringe]

Yeah, but I don't care about the balance so much as even imbalanced its fun when your not two shotted or the other guy isn't immortal. The gear issue is not an issue of balance between classes. Its an issue of balance between progression. And via twinking EQ is very easy to manipulate this way.

Your example is good, but the system would also need built in PvE detection. Because kimm was not actually killing wizing, the mobs where.

I don't think a player should be penalized for getting kills in pvp. Though they should have diminishing rewards. Beyond the metagame of player agency, zone control, guild affiliation, friends and enemies, war. The game shouldn't actively reward pvp too much. Because it takes the focus away from sandbox and towards arena pvp. If there was an arena in this game yeah. It should be rewarding in the arena. Most people like item loot for riskvsreward. And also because it can and will level the playing field on a healthy server. But as servers age (and they all do) and become more corrupt or top heavy, item loot has diminishing returns and becomes a detriment to fair play.

Your right. But I don't think it makes sense for an EQ PvP perspective to look at balancing the game by "giving people items" or allowing them to use items to overcome any player in any situation. It takes the imbalance of EQ away and makes people one man armies.

Honestly I am not an Arena pvper that much and more an RP pvper. I pvp my enemies and protect my friends. Enemies are defined by players who I don't like, are competition, or are too great of a threat to let live. I don't need any reward other than knowing that who I choose to KOS makes a difference to myself and my friends. I'm one of the least KOS players on the server also. I also like people to have to consider very carefully how they pvp. Not just for shits and giggles it gets old fast. Because the people pvping for shits and giggles are more inclined to abuse cheap game mechanics to get their lulz. And it is not fighting a human player at that point its fighting an overpowered player who behaves in a completely predictable manner - Fungi + Epic + zerg straight at you and they don't even worry about countering what you do to them. Because they have nothing to loose and usually cant loose.

I also hate the requirement of having to have a high level character to pvp on the majority of classes on this server with months invested into farming just the right stuff and tradeskills. People should be able to jump in and be effective pvpers with a pumice stone and 2-3 peices of mr gear and buddies. And some classic weapons, and later on kunark weapons. A good jouster should have a slim chance against an epic wielding character at high level with fair gear, but at low level it just doesnt matter how much skill you have.

If all the above is TLDR. Right now pvp below level 50 is a Zero Sum Game.

Do you even have a lvl 60 on Red99? You constantly giving input on high end pvp but with what experience? Experience you have had based on what? If you don't have a 60 and haven't pvp'd for a minimal of 5-6months end game then pretty much the 10-20 posts you do a day are moot..

[Thrilla]

from another thread here:

If you do item loot I would hope that resists are tweaked BEFORE any item loot is implemented. May I suggest RZ type only non NO-DROP and not primary/secondary/offhand. Also nothing from bags. Even then I still think it is too hardcore for this population and will make PvP even duller, back in the day people generally didn't care about dying as much as they do in such a small community.

On RZ I'd wager 75-80% of the population ran around in NODROP only gear, the top tier PvPers went full gear because the resist system rewarded the risk vs reward to partial a spell vs possibly losing an item but could tip the scale of a fight. Resists have to be like Live PvP if you want item-loot to succeed otherwise just expect a bunch of naked ass people never wearing the gear and engaging only in zerg-like PvP where they feel they absolutely will win and won't take risks at all becuz of the thought of losing an item.

If you can replicate Live resists and pull it off it definitely adds another fun layer to the game, loved watching people run away as they bagged every single item starting with their robe if they were a caster lol. On Live it also rewarded risk takers, was like playing the lottery if you can pull off a quick gank in a raid force and loot a Trak BP/Legs cause they thought they were safe and didn't have the time to bag it. The idea has a lot of upside, but I feel the smallish population will make it harder to succeed as it did on Live. It also promotes more fatalities in the sense that if 2 people are going toe to toe and both are at risk of dying, they both may stick around becuz of the gamble of the item loot where as now people just b-line for the zone.

Edit: god, item-loot with fixed PvP resists has so much upside. It indirectly fixes enchanters as a more viable PvP class, and also puts Necros back on top as opposed to the clusterfuck of wizards that exist on R99 today because the other 3 int casters aren't as powerful as they were on Live. Enchanters would be able to land more spells including DD's as the thought of even losing a jacinth ring /tranix crown might make somebody bag it and lower their MR also people would start saccing a bit more of MR to make their FR/CR/etc higher also indirectly helping Enchanters and making the int caster pool balanced again

TLDR: Item loot being successful is entirely dependent on the PvP resist system being reliable

[mtb tripper]

I want perm-death server

[NotKringe]

from another thread here:

If you do item loot I would hope that resists are tweaked BEFORE any item loot is implemented. May I suggest RZ type only non NO-DROP and not primary/secondary/offhand. Also nothing from bags. Even then I still think it is too hardcore for this population and will make PvP even duller, back in the day people generally didn't care about dying as much as they do in such a small community.

On RZ I'd wager 75-80% of the population ran around in NODROP only gear, the top tier PvPers went full gear because the resist system rewarded the risk vs reward to partial a spell vs possibly losing an item but could tip the scale of a fight. Resists have to be like Live PvP if you want item-loot to succeed otherwise just expect a bunch of naked ass people never wearing the gear and engaging only in zerg-like PvP where they feel they absolutely will win and won't take risks at all becuz of the thought of losing an item.

If you can replicate Live resists and pull it off it definitely adds another fun layer to the game, loved watching people run away as they bagged every single item starting with their robe if they were a caster lol. On Live it also rewarded risk takers, was like playing the lottery if you can pull off a quick gank in a raid force and loot a Trak BP/Legs cause they thought they were safe and didn't have the time to bag it. The idea has a lot of upside, but I feel the smallish population will make it harder to succeed as it did on Live. It also promotes more fatalities in the sense that if 2 people are going toe to toe and both are at risk of dying, they both may stick around becuz of the gamble of the item loot where as now people just b-line for the zone.

Edit: god, item-loot with fixed PvP resists has so much upside. It indirectly fixes enchanters as a more viable PvP class, and also puts Necros back on top as opposed to the clusterfuck of wizards that exist on R99 today because the other 3 int casters aren't as powerful as they were on Live. Enchanters would be able to land more spells including DD's as the thought of even losing a jacinth ring /tranix crown might make somebody bag it and lower their MR also people would start saccing a bit more of MR to make their FR/CR/etc higher also indirectly helping Enchanters and making the int caster pool balanced again

TLDR: Item loot being successful is entirely dependent on the PvP resist system being reliable

Pretty much spot on.

[Bogart]

Wow you guys are retarded he was talking about food water and arrows, stackable limited use items.

[Vexenu]

Can anyone please explain the point of looting food and arrows.

We'd literally be better off if everyone just dropped a cracked staff upon death.

[Lu|z Sect]

Will play naked.

[Bogart]

Can anyone please explain the point of looting food and arrows.

We'd literally be better off if everyone just dropped a cracked staff upon death.

I wouldn't mind looting pumice or sow pots.