Bard swarm kiting that kills other players

[Durka]

Has anyone just been killing mobs in a decent place such as an outdoor zone and bam - 100 mobs train by you, a few socially aggro you and you die?

You begin to ask yourself "Where the hell did that come from??" and then you think "I camped here because its pretty chill and easy to manage pulls"

Well, those are very common thoughts when that happens.

Now the real question is, does the bard consider the players that they train over and kill from social aggro?

No.

Do they consider the time wasted from a CR, rez and medding up?

No.

So what gain is it to log in and try to level?

None. Its grief and hard to level up. I lose 1/2 my night from CR's, medding and recovering from the loss. Makes me wanna just say screw it and go play another game.

I would like to hear other players thoughts on bard training from swarm kiting. It's not exactly intentional training, but it is collateral damage due to their lack of respect for others in outdoor zones.

There have been a few adventures I have recently seen bard swarm kites kill me along with others. It's almost like an epidemic in outdoor leveling zones.

It needs to stop. Training is training. Sometimes its accidental, those are understandable incidents. Blatant disregard and lack of respect for others' play space / camps is getting out of control.

This is not meant to be a troll or flame thread, this is meant to discuss the current server / outdoor zone situation with bards. Keep it civil and pointed.

[Bantam 1]

Are you in the OT?

[Durka]

Yeah, been there a few times in the past week. Heard the same thing happen in DL too.

[Ketu Garyx]

Many have been the times in which I have been subjected to the scourge that is the bard train. Generally its often in OT but at lower levels and on other characters I have been victim of it in Unrest as well.

There is a serious issue and lack of respect by the majority (not all mind you) of Bards on this server, especially after they cause an issue. Generally the conversation goes from one of us sending them a tell asking them to stop, or asking what happened and all you get is a "Lol, Sorry brah." or something asinine like that.

It happens far too often.

Other than this....it makes mobs extremely scarce in zones. One character pulling over half of the mobs in a zone like unrest when three other groups are trying to XP is hardly fair. I don't care if its a benefit of the bard class, its exploited, it hurts other players, it is unbalanced, and it should stop.

Astald Hardwood.

[Bantam 1]

Jerks come in all classes.

I got yelled at for falling asleep in a group when I warned the group I was falling asleep... twice.

[Durka]

Many have been the times in which I have been subjected to the scourge that is the bard train. Generally its often in OT but at lower levels and on other characters I have been victim of it in Unrest as well.

There is a serious issue and lack of respect by the majority (not all mind you) of Bards on this server, especially after they cause an issue. Generally the conversation goes from one of us sending them a tell asking them to stop, or asking what happened and all you get is a "Lol, Sorry brah." or something asinine like that.

It happens far too often.

Other than this....it makes mobs extremely scarce in zones. One character pulling over half of the mobs in a zone like unrest when three other groups are trying to XP is hardly fair. I don't care if its a benefit of the bard class, its exploited, it hurts other players, it is unbalanced, and it should stop.

Astald Hardood.

I think this guy has a good point. If I were to run into a dungeon, FD 10 mobs, and those mobs kill people - who is to blame? ME. I am pretty sure there would be reprimand if I do it more than once. Even then, if it was fraps'd I am pretty sure I would be banned.

If I swarm kite and pull ALL mobs from common camps such as SF zone and mud pit in OT, run through 4-5 times and those mobs lose aggro but socially aggro someone else, meh, who cares. I wont get reprimanded and nobody cares.

But wait. bards have some sort of leniency here. It was an 'accident' and 'I shoudlnt have been at a common outdoor camp' is the attitude. You know what?

No.

That is a bs thought process.

I think Capi from BDA and others need to be held responsible. I dont care if your doing legit powerleveling. Your killing people and wasting other peoples' time.

[citizen1080]

How exactly are you being trained? Just curious as all the "camps" in OT are on the walls. Seems like odds of you running out to pull a mob and his train happening across you at that moment would be low.

[t0lkien]

How exactly are you being trained? Just curious as all the "camps" in OT are on the walls. Seems like odds of you running out to pull a mob and his train happening across you at that moment would be low.

Bards in OT pull half the zone and their mobs just path after them, crossing right over others if they are in the way. There is no way to control them and it's very easy to get in aggro range if you are out looking for mobs to pull etc. I've been in groups in DL when huge trains along the wall have passed right over the top of us. I've always zoned into and out of KC after our mob was down just as a precaution. It's very rude IMO.

This is one of the reasons I don't low HP kite, and do my best to stay away from others, and only pull manageable swarms when I do AoE kite (I was over it by level 40; it's a dull way to play). I've gotten into a few arguments in OT with other Bards over their lack of consideration for other players. I totally feel the OP.

Not much anyone can do though. I know how to mess them up if they are really obnoxious, but it's never come to that. To be fair, many of the kiting Bards are reasonable. It's the few who are making it bad for everyone.

[Savok]

As a bard I have only ever PBAE kited once on p1999, it was a disaster. I always preferred to charm kite with 3 or 4 mobs at once but that is still broken here so I'm reduced to either fear kiting or joining a group(!).

As a filthy hybrid groups seem to be few and far between because everyone is trying to maximize their playtime and don't want a bard sucking their exp away (seriously I was told once to f@$% off when I ask to join a group because I would slow down their exp). This means bards generally have to solo - the most efficient way would then be to swarm kite half a zone.

If people stopped trying to min max everything and just enjoyed the game maybe more people would group and have fun.

[Tecmos Deception]

Its grief and hard to level up. I lose 1/2 my night from CR's, medding and recovering from the loss. Makes me wanna just say screw it and go play another game.

I would like to hear other players thoughts on bard training from swarm kiting. It's not exactly intentional training.

1. It's not griefing, that would require intent imo.
2. If you lose half your night recovering from deaths, then you need to be more careful about where you are and what you're doing.
3. Don't quit, just stop letting yourself get killed. You admit it isn't intentional, so it isn't like the bards are hunting you down and dragging mobs over you on purpose when you are fighting something that will social aggro. So just move to a spot they don't train across, or pull stuff that isn't social, or pick a new zone.

But all that aside, 4. If you die because of mobs that are aggrod on a bard aggroing you, then it IS "training" and it IS against the rules even if it was 100% unintentional. Petition it. Server rules say it is the bard's fault and that he will be punished for it.

Training
Training can be defined as the intentional manipulation of NPC Placement and Aggro in such a way that causes it to attack another player that it wouldn't have otherwise if at it's normal spawn location. The most basic form of this is "dumping" mobs near another player or party and escaping via a form of teleportation or death. Intentional or not, this is against the rules. This rule is not limited to the basic example given, as there are many different forms of training players will use. You take all responsibility for mobs that you aggro. If you are trying to escape from a pack of NPC's but there is another group in your way, do not run through them. Even if your intention is not to train them, it would inevitable cause this and you may be subject to disciplinary. It is recommended that you take the death (Your responsibility for aggroing the mobs) and request a resurrection from nearby players.

If you happen to accidentally train a group of players, please immedietely notify the staff via /petition that you have done so by accident. Apologize to the players in question, and assist them with any recovery needed. If the staff hears about your train before you tell them, intention is no longer an excuse. (Repeated unintentional trains will still result in disciplinary action).

The staff don't seem to be very forceful in applying the training rules though, except maybe when it applies to raiding situations, probably because there is so much training going on every day because no one thinks that the "i didnt do it on purpose bro, i was just trying to get to a zoneline alive" training is illegal. Just look at all the stupid fucks who train all of the outpost to SF or FM every day and then say "sorry dude, i warned you guys" or "it wasn't on purpose" if you call them out on it.

I kinda wish people would get a week suspension for training to see if people started to actually be a little careful with their shit. But I guess it's pretty hard to confirm training just by hearing two people tell one-sided stories and looking at logs. Even screenshots don't really get the story across usually, and almost no one has fraps ready to go on a moment's notice.

[kaev]

1. It's not griefing, that would require intent imo.
2. If you lose half your night recovering from deaths, then you need to be more careful about where you are and what you're doing.
3. Don't quit, just stop letting yourself get killed. You admit it isn't intentional, so it isn't like the bards are hunting you down and dragging mobs over you on purpose when you are fighting something that will social aggro. So just move to a spot they don't train across, or pull stuff that isn't social, or pick a new zone.

But all that aside, 4. If you die because of a bard's pulling aggroing you, then it IS "training" and it IS against the rules even if it was 100% unintentional. Petition it. Server rules say it is the bard's fault and that he will be punished for it.

1. Bullshit. Or, if you prefer, when your intent is to do as you please and to hell with everybody else, that's more than sufficient. Actually, whether or not you prefer, that comment is pure, unadulterated, bullshit.

2. If you're griefing people by single-handedly disrupting the everloving fuck out of an XP zone intended for many you need to fuck off and quit being such a goddamned asshat.

3. Don't quit, petition the assholes early and often (don't forget the dickweed druids and wizards training their quads over XP groups and then zoning because they've bitten off more than they can chew, petition them as well.)

4. Corporal punishment would be a fantastic upgrade to this server's CSR (a guy can dream.)

[Ravager]

Let the bards have OT imo, it's the worst zone for exping in anyway, unless you are a bard. You'll get better exp, loot and end game skills grouping in a dungeon.

[Leddy]

OT is pretty garbage for soloing/small groups, mobs hit hard for the xp you get, there are definitely better zones imo.

[Tecmos Deception]

1. Bullshit. Or, if you prefer, when your intent is to do as you please and to hell with everybody else, that's more than sufficient. Actually, whether or not you prefer, that comment is pure, unadulterated, bullshit.

2. If you're griefing people by single-handedly disrupting the everloving fuck out of an XP zone intended for many you need to fuck off and quit being such a goddamned asshat.

3. Don't quit, petition the assholes early and often (don't forget the dickweed druids and wizards training their quads over XP groups and then zoning because they've bitten off more than they can chew, petition them as well.)

4. Corporal punishment would be a fantastic upgrade to this server's CSR (a guy can dream.)

A bit butthurt, are we?

[kaev]

A bit butthurt, are we?

Oh look! Little Timmy found an old internet meme to copy! Isn't that just the cutest thing! /swoon

[Wudan]

Idiots need to stop QQ about bard trains. Seriously. OT is bard zo ne. Get over it and exp somwhere else. Bard haters suck

[Droog007]

How exactly are you being trained? Just curious as all the "camps" in OT are on the walls. Seems like odds of you running out to pull a mob and his train happening across you at that moment would be low.

Confirmed desperate to protect remaining brokerage business post-account sales ban.

[Closing]

I have done a lot of kiting in OT. I always slow or dd my target to pull them so it won't social agro if someone happens to get near my swarm. Also, if someone asks me to stay away from their "camp" then I do so. People are always bitching about bards in OT. I don't understand why people even go there to xp. There are way better dungeons to get better xp in.

[NegaStoat]

If I'm leveling a character in a zone like The Overthere, sure, I'd expect Bards to be swarm kiting at any given time. That's great. I have no issue with that. So to accommodate that situation that's a part of the zone, I'd probably direct my pulls flush against a zone wall. Or I'd carefully consider my approach on a quest related mob (Tambourine coin drop mob in the pit, etc) and politely speak to a nearby bard about my intent if I need a few minutes to get something done safely.

The moment a bard is bringing their trains consistently along the zone wall where I'm pulling to and tries to run me over several times in a row, they can expect me to be Frapsing that crap and reporting it. That's assuming they're ignoring my request to be left alone at that point on the zone wall.

That person gets to use the zone as much as me. We're both equal as players. I'm already giving up the main body of the zone out of consideration of their wanting to swarm kite. I'm not okay with being shoved off of a claimed patch of zone wall as well. There's no way that's going to be supported by the server rules.

Honestly though, the server has a lot of great people on it. I don't expect this to be a problem of any sort down the road.

[Droog007]

This problem would be reduced to a tiny fraction of the current epidemic if it were just bards leveling themselves. The fact is, it's a huge PL factory - only swelled by the account sales ban.

What I'm curious about is the actual level of involvement by the PLees. I find it hard to believe that each of them are sitting at their PCs and taking an active role. Most of them are probably AFK to some degree. Some of them might be being boxed... (dun dun dunnnn!)

I've seen posts by staff stating that "AFK leveling" is frowned upon and will be dealt with by kicking to character select. Maybe some custom code to automate this is in order.... X amount of exp accrued while character is idle results in a kick? For starters...

[citizen1080]

Confirmed desperate to protect remaining brokerage business post-account sales ban.

confirmed mad

[Gr33nbud]

It def isn't happening in just OT. I've had to gate a few times from Burning Woods because I suddenly turn around and see a wall of incoming death thanks to some 60 Bards who are farming w/o respect for anyone else.

[webrunner5]

I must admit Overthere is a crap zone to level in unless you are doing faction work. I am not fond of Bards either but they do NEED to have a few places to do it.

Well as for some Bards PLing well Druids have been know to sort of take over a few zones. And they are damn good zones to level in. Doesn't make it any better but it is reality.

[citizen1080]

Bards take over OT (shitty xp zone) and Burning woods (which has 1 XP camp, the giant fort which is usually perma camped and left alone)

Druids take over Unrest. Pretty much the best xp zone for that lvl range. Where is the druid hate?

[Freakish]

I hate druids.

[Capi]

How exactly are you being trained? Just curious as all the "camps" in OT are on the walls. Seems like odds of you running out to pull a mob and his train happening across you at that moment would be low.

He was standing in the middle of the lake in front of skyfire. Guess what he was doing? PLing

[citizen1080]

He was standing in the middle of the lake in front of skyfire. Guess what he was doing? PLing

Haha!

[quido]

It's up to the people in these zones at legit camps to make clear what they are doing and their expectations. For example, if a 60 bard is PLing some 30s dude in FM and there is a group at the giant fort, it's not too much to ask that he dot every single mob he pulls so that when they path over fort, they don't all add. At the same time, people are fast to blame bards in zones where they simply got pathed onto by roaming mobs.

[zanderklocke]

If I understand aggro correctly, if a level 60 bard were to snare these mobs, they should never each touch anyone they roam by...unless the bard dies correct?

From personal experience, I've never seen a green mob in Overthere that I touched aggro another mob. Only I can aggro mobs by standing on top of them (sarnaks/tigers/rhinos) or intentionally hitting/snaring them...they never socially aggro each other if I run them through each other if they are all green to me. Therefore, I don't think there is a problem with high level bards accidentally stealing mobs. If mobs were stolen, it was usually intentional or by low-hp aggro, which I will touch on below.

To my first question, I've been under the impression that as long as the bard pulls a mob by aggroing it with damage/snare, it shouldn't attack other people it runs by. Has the recent patch changed how aggro works?

Furthermore, bards should probably just not run mobs through people. There is no reason a bard should ever have to run a train by the zone lines or zone walls. Heck, even bards running mobs through other bards' mobs drives people crazy because if any bard goes low hp due to getting hit or low-hp kiting, the aggro in the zone gets all funky and mobs all run at the low hp bard if he ran through others' mobs earlier.

Bards need to pay better attention if they see people, and people should watch out if they see bards. However, this takes diligence by both sides. However, bards probably have the greater power due to speed, so just don't run over people. It's really not that hard to control a train of mobs as a bard.

[citizen1080]

I think the training occurs when the bard is far out ahead and makes a turn. The train does not follow his exact path. It will cut the corner. So if there is a group on the inside of the bards turn the mobs will path over them. However, like I said before, in OT there are no camps other than the walls, and its not real hard to dodge a giant train you can see coming for miles.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4glrrpPy51qbqxhko1_500.png

[zanderklocke]

I think the training occurs when the bard is far out ahead and makes a turn. The train does not follow his exact path. It will cut the corner. So if there is a group on the inside of the bards turn the mobs will path over them. However, like I said before, in OT there are no camps other than the walls, and its not real hard to dodge a giant train you can see coming for miles.

Still if the bard attacked/snared the mobs and didn't socially pull them (which I don't believe high level bards can do), shouldn't they not even bother people they path over?

[citizen1080]

Still if the bard attacked/snared the mobs and didn't socially pull them (which I don't believe high level bards can do), shouldn't they not even bother people they path over?

They should not. I AoE kited in TD, OT, BW and CoM and I never killed anyone with one of my kites UNLESS, I died.

People who are claiming they died due to a kite either:

Tried to snipe mobs off the pack and got agro on multiple mobs (this will happen if bard is only prox aggroing the mobs)

Got below 20% hp and the whole pack headed for them.

Or the bard died.

[zanderklocke]

So basically, bards watch out for people and try to not train over them. People, don't kill mobs in the dead center of a zone if you think bards might level there.

If you are a bard and accidentally get someone killed, let them sit in your exp group for a pull.

[citizen1080]

So basically, bards watch out for people and try to not train over them. People, don't kill mobs in the dead center of a zone if you bards might level there.

If you are a bard and accidentally get someone killed, let them sit in your exp group for a pull.

^---This

[Capi]

So basically, bards watch out for people and try to not train over them. People, don't kill mobs in the dead center of a zone if you think bards might level there.

If you are a bard and accidentally get someone killed, let them sit in your exp group for a pull.

I've done this plenty of times for people I've inconvenienced. But when I get hate tells and people in shout/ooc/tells cursing me out in every type of obscenity possible...it makes me less likely to help that person out. I keep a clicker cleric logged in OT to fix mistakes and help the zone out. I've rescued corpses from the gorge and the outpost...but nobody cares about any of that stuff. It's just the "I had to travel 10 seconds to find a mob to kill, I'm going to find the nearest bard and shout and curse at them"

[SavageBeast15]

I personally find the bards who pull their swarms in DL directly over the top of KC multiple times, when asked not to the biggest problems. Just this week I watched 2-3 bards aggro too many spiders and have to zone, they didn't say a word, and their train they HAD to run over KC multiple times comes back and wipes a couple groups and soloers. THESE are the bards I will talk shit to, if you're trying your best to look out for people exping, go for your swarm, it's the ones who clearly don't give a shit that I'll call out

[khanable]

OT is bard territory

Go somewhere else

[Kraftwerk]

OT is bard territory

Go somewhere else

SK -> OT -> BW

It's how bards do 19-57, get over it.

I heard there are dungeon zones with good exp modifiers in many zones throughout Norrath where people can group without Bard interference, can anyone confirm this? Like do there exist any other zones to exp in besides SK, OT and BW or are those three the pinnacle of group XP in this game?

[Acrux Bcrux]

Ive always wanted to mass aoe kite KC with another bard, but there would be crying.

[citizen1080]

Ive always wanted to mass aoe kite KC with another bard, but there would be crying.

I AoE'd in CoM almost 2 years ago when the place was pretty much dead. Crazy xp...horribad pathing tho.

[t0lkien]

If I understand aggro correctly, if a level 60 bard were to snare these mobs, they should never each touch anyone they roam by...unless the bard dies correct?

From personal experience, I've never seen a green mob in Overthere that I touched aggro another mob. Only I can aggro mobs by standing on top of them (sarnaks/tigers/rhinos) or intentionally hitting/snaring them...they never socially aggro each other if I run them through each other if they are all green to me. Therefore, I don't think there is a problem with high level bards accidentally stealing mobs. If mobs were stolen, it was usually intentional or by low-hp aggro, which I will touch on below.

To my first question, I've been under the impression that as long as the bard pulls a mob by aggroing it with damage/snare, it shouldn't attack other people it runs by. Has the recent patch changed how aggro works?

Furthermore, bards should probably just not run mobs through people. There is no reason a bard should ever have to run a train by the zone lines or zone walls. Heck, even bards running mobs through other bards' mobs drives people crazy because if any bard goes low hp due to getting hit or low-hp kiting, the aggro in the zone gets all funky and mobs all run at the low hp bard if he ran through others' mobs earlier.

Bards need to pay better attention if they see people, and people should watch out if they see bards. However, this takes diligence by both sides. However, bards probably have the greater power due to speed, so just don't run over people. It's really not that hard to control a train of mobs as a bard.

Ahhhh! Zander you have solved an aggro mystery for me I think. On seafury island I have noticed that during charm kiting BOTH my pet and the mob it is fighting (when charm breaks) will sometimes start running away from me toward somewhere else. Then, after I chase them down, they will return. I'm guessing it's low HP aggro from someone else on the island who has passed through my pet/mob's aggro range at some point? Is low HP aggro really that broken?

[mreynert]

Is low HP aggro really that broken?

You can kill mobs in Burning Woods from full to dead without pulling aggro because the bait is on low hp aggro. Only the higher lvl stuff requires like one camp/zone out of the aggro.

It's not absolute, but it's pretty ridiculous.

[Mendo]

I always wondered why a bard was allowed to own all of the camps in a zone? Seems like they are definitely breaking the "don't be a douche" rule. I'm always so tempted to root one of their mobs when they are running in circles. I don't because I'm not willing to break the "don't be a douche" rule. HAHA

[zanderklocke]

Ahhhh! Zander you have solved an aggro mystery for me I think. On seafury island I have noticed that during charm kiting BOTH my pet and the mob it is fighting (when charm breaks) will sometimes start running away from me toward somewhere else. Then, after I chase them down, they will return. I'm guessing it's low HP aggro from someone else on the island who has passed through my pet/mob's aggro range at some point? Is low HP aggro really that broken?

Yes, low-hp aggro is quite insane. It seems to only affect mobs like level 30 (maybe 25+?). There is no way to pull a mob off someone that is low hp unless you really piss off the mob. By pissing off the mob I mean doing an exorbitant amount of damage/snaring. That is why people in Overthere can level off low hp kiting. The amount of damage a damaging bard/caster would have to do to mobs chasing someone with low hp is more than the total hp mobs in Overthere have. However, for this same reason aggro must be cleared every so often by the damaging bard or caster in zones such as Dreadlands or Burning Wood because the mobs have so much hp that the damage dealer can actually overcome the super high threshold of aggro set by low-hp.

However, I believe low-hp, although maybe classic, is a ridiculous mechanic. If one bard has his train of mobs touch another bard's train and then goes low hp, the second bard's mobs will all get pulled away assuming they are the same mob type due to social aggro, or in your case Tolkien, your mobs run away from you.

Low-hp aggro is the reason why there are so many low level 50 bards; there is very little skill involved in leveling this fast way. I mean solo AE kiting is somewhat difficult and can be prone to screw ups. Low-hp is basically easy mode. Not sure if it's good or bad, but it's important to understand how bards can steal mobs away or get people killed based on people's hp going below 20%.

[Conky]

I got my bard over 50 just by kiting but it does not mean you have to be a douche about it, I would wait for off hours to do south karana, I would dot my mobs to pull them, and if people where soloing I would leave the mobs by them alone or invite them for exp. Im a bard and saying OT, BW ect are "bard zones" too bad if you get killed or get no mobs is just dumb anyone can exp where they want, I kited over 50 levels and never killed anyone and if someone got upset at me for taking too many mobs I would invite them to group. Whats wrong with being nice? I just wish more people tried it.

[zanderklocke]

Regardless, I feel like this thread pops up every few weeks. I think it's just a sign the server is healthy and people are fighting for mobs. I mean, once people realized how fast and easy bards can level with or without low-hp, everyone began making bards. When I started on the server, I think bard was the third least played class behind paladin and ranger, and now, things have changed.

[Durka]

I really don't care if its a 'bard zone', if I am getting PL'd by a friend or if 'this is how bards level'

Really, its disrespect and a waste of time. Nobody should have to "work around" another player just cause they swarm a zone. Fuck that. If I wanna camp at "mudpit" in OT, I should have no issues. If a bard runs through, swipes all the mobs and I fight a tiger, all of that bards tigers WILL socially aggro me because I am actively killing a tiger vs just proximity aggroing a mob.

If the bard aggroes every mob in the zone, thats their deal. I cant hate on that. I can only hate on getting me killed numerous times due to lack of respect AND understanding of how social aggro works.

All of the other fluff about this being a non-issue is just defending dickheadery. EQ is a sandbox for EVERYONE to play in. If you cant play nice, GTFO. OT is not a bard zone.

It's everyone's.

[mreynert]

Fuck that. If I wanna camp at "mudpit" in OT, I should have no issues.

That's like saying you can park yourself in the middle of an interstate highway and the rest of the world has to accommodate you. Move 50 yards to the wall, pull there, no issues for anyone. You taking this stand saying bards are evil, they can't play their way, but everyone must bow to my wishes makes you look just as bad.

[Durka]

Umm, you are telling me to move so a bard can swarm? No, screw that. Bards need to avoid training. Simple solution. Just follow the rules.

Bards dont own a zone. The server does. The main rule is here is "play nice"

I dont care if a bard pulls every mob. If they get me killed in the process then its a problem.

[Trouble]

Yes, low-hp aggro is quite insane. It seems to only affect mobs like level 30 (maybe 25+?). There is no way to pull a mob off someone that is low hp unless you really piss off the mob. By pissing off the mob I mean doing an exorbitant amount of damage/snaring. That is why people in Overthere can level off low hp kiting. The amount of damage a damaging bard/caster would have to do to mobs chasing someone with low hp is more than the total hp mobs in Overthere have. However, for this same reason aggro must be cleared every so often by the damaging bard or caster in zones such as Dreadlands or Burning Wood because the mobs have so much hp that the damage dealer can actually overcome the super high threshold of aggro set by low-hp.

However, I believe low-hp, although maybe classic, is a ridiculous mechanic. If one bard has his train of mobs touch another bard's train and then goes low hp, the second bard's mobs will all get pulled away assuming they are the same mob type due to social aggro, or in your case Tolkien, your mobs run away from you.

Low-hp aggro is the reason why there are so many low level 50 bards; there is very little skill involved in leveling this fast way. I mean solo AE kiting is somewhat difficult and can be prone to screw ups. Low-hp is basically easy mode. Not sure if it's good or bad, but it's important to understand how bards can steal mobs away or get people killed based on people's hp going below 20%.


To elaborate a little bit- mobs under level 20 will not work for low-hp kiting. Also, you can pull mobs from a low hp bait in OT. Get a low 30s bard and have him try to kill some of the really high hp tigers before he gets aggro. It's a coin flip at best. It's not based on how much damage you do as much as it is based on how many times you've dotted the mob. The higher you get and the more damage your dots do, the more damage you can do to a mob before you peel it off your bait.

[Tasslehofp99]

Training is one of the least enforced portions of whatever play nice policy exists on p99.


Sad but 100% true.


The burden of proof is on the victim and nothing short of a fraps showing intent will yield any justice. Someone can basically train you repeatedly and not ever be punished if you don't have proof.


I always assumed that proof of training could easily be pulled from logs if a correct time of incidence is provided. Even if 5 people petition the same trainer that is never enough.

[zanderklocke]

To elaborate a little bit- mobs under level 20 will not work for low-hp kiting. Also, you can pull mobs from a low hp bait in OT. Get a low 30s bard and have him try to kill some of the really high hp tigers before he gets aggro. It's a coin flip at best. It's not based on how much damage you do as much as it is based on how many times you've dotted the mob. The higher you get and the more damage your dots do, the more damage you can do to a mob before you peel it off your bait.

That sounds about right in terms of how many times you cast the spell. I've seen tigers turn on people that get resisted a lot.

Is there a hard rule of how many times a mob can be cast on by a person before it flips? Do certain spells/songs cause it to flip sooner due to creating more aggro?

I feel like these are questions that aren't ever really going to be answered.

[Trouble]

That sounds about right in terms of how many times you cast the spell. I've seen tigers turn on people that get resisted a lot.

Is there a hard rule of how many times a mob can be cast on by a person before it flips? Do certain spells/songs cause it to flip sooner due to creating more aggro?

I feel like these are questions that aren't ever really going to be answered.

I'd say yea, since different songs add different amounts of hate- same with spells.

Best way I've found to know when it's time to zone is- after a certain point that you get a feel for, especially in BW if you target a specific mob and track it's hp, is to back off the kite after each round of dots and see if you get sit aggro. If not, let Selo's tick twice or so then get back in and do another round. The longer you let your dots tick away before reapplying them the more damage you can do before having to clear hate.

[zanderklocke]

If a bard runs through, swipes all the mobs and I fight a tiger, all of that bards tigers WILL socially aggro me because I am actively killing a tiger vs just proximity aggroing a mob.

What you just said isn't always entirely correct just FYI. If he only runs by them and gets them by proximity aggro, what you explained can happen. However, if the bard actually engages them (snare/damage/etc) rather than getting body aggro, they will not attack you.

Essentially, when the bard is aggroing mobs onto you, s/he is just being careless and using body aggro on KOS mobs.

Not that this charges your point in this thread, but it might clarify why you would or wouldn't get mobs attacking you.

I'm not 100% positive, but I believe if all of the mobs involved are green to the bard, I don't think his body aggro on a mob will pop it onto you if he runs by. Not entirely sure about this.

Last, I guess I don't understand what the point of this thread is aside from people sharing bad experiences they've had with bards or others defending bards. The mechanics of bard AEing exists in the game, and the problem lies with people utilizing this mechanic sloppily rather than the bard class itself. With that being said, what do you hope to gain from this thread aside from a PSA of your frustration? I mean every single bard that doesn't have his or her head under a rock has heard these complaints before. I don't mean my question in a hostile manner; I just don't see anything coming from this discussion. It seems like maybe it's something better fit for the Rants and Flames section of the forums.

Until bard AEing is nerfed, which is not likely, things are not going to change in zones where bards can AE. Too many bards just don't give a shit or are sloppy.

[t0lkien]

Yes, the problem is the players not the class. And strangely, I've had situations created because there are those who now think it's ok to do anything to a Bard because they're a Bard (steal mobs etc.) and that the bad behaviour of some Bards justifies this.

Anyway, I love the Bard class. It's absolutely unique in RPGs. No other game has done anything even close to what EQ did with the class. Half design, half accident, it's all awesomeness to me. All I try to do is repair some of the damage done by being overly considerate and helpful where I can. Mind you, there are many on p99 like that in all classes, and they far outweigh the dicks in my experience. I've been helped unreasonably by people who have stopped their play, logged onto a cleric, and waited for a boat for 30mins just to rez me (yo Jaeden!) Never had that on live!

[Zyn]

I suck at swarm kiting lol

[Tasslehofp99]

Bottom line is you're going to get trained in any zone, class is irrelevant. Enforcement of training is very loose on the server unfortunately. Without indisputable fraps evidence that shows intent the trainers won't be held accountable 9/10 times.


This isn't anything new to p99.

[DarkwingDuck]

TMO bards.
This is all they do. Circle karnors castles, day n day out, training .(and other places )
I've yet to see a day go by without at least one group member dying to these douchebags trains.

[webrunner5]

I suck at swarm kiting lol

You are not alone brother. :o:o

[mreynert]

Umm, you are telling me to move so a bard can swarm? No, screw that. Bards need to avoid training. Simple solution. Just follow the rules.

Bards dont own a zone. The server does. The main rule is here is "play nice"

I dont care if a bard pulls every mob. If they get me killed in the process then its a problem.

Actually no, I did not say this at all. Everyone pulls from center, mobs always pathing here and there. If they say, overpull and die, go LD and die, and their mobs come running back onto you as a "train" because you decided to fight in the middle of the interstate, it's your own dumb fault.

Pull to the wall, this is not advice to avoid problem from bards alone, but everyone anywhere ever.

[Tecmos Deception]

Ahhhh! Zander you have solved an aggro mystery for me I think. On seafury island I have noticed that during charm kiting BOTH my pet and the mob it is fighting (when charm breaks) will sometimes start running away from me toward somewhere else. Then, after I chase them down, they will return. I'm guessing it's low HP aggro from someone else on the island who has passed through my pet/mob's aggro range at some point? Is low HP aggro really that broken?

It could be other aggro too. Like a chanter picks up minimal proximity aggro, then runs off into the distance and runes himself, that rune is a shitload of aggro. Heals, etc.

[Cecily]

Only read thread title, but I'm for it.

[doeda]

or they can just fix bard charm so we can go swarm money camps.......

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

TMO bards.
This is all they do. Circle karnors castles, day n day out, training .(and other places )
I've yet to see a day go by without at least one group member dying to these douchebags trains.

[gprater]

I dont play a bard, but if I did and was kiting in OT I would stay within the paths a few meters. I have grouped many times over the years in OT and its not that bad of a zone. Usually the puller doesnt have to go far over the path to get mobs unless you are being a dork group and camping SF ramp. And in a group there is no way you would sit your asses in a camp inside the paths save the ruins where the sarnak are.

But as a general rule/courtesy, the puller, albeit bard or other is the only who is ultimately responsible mobs chasing them no matter how they aggroed them.

[Merekai]

An easy fix to this would be to do what they did on live, make it so bard's can't swarm kite anymore by removing the damage component to the song if the mob is moving.

[Valere]

Any bard worth his salt should know how far behind him his train is at all times. There is no excuse for retarded bards running their swarm over KC, except for that of their inability to properly play their class.

I swarmed on my bard to mid 50's and only had one complaint on my swarming (was in SK, Aviak tower). How could this have happened? Because I'm not a giant dongle head when I swarm (which most bards these days appear to be, especially the ones getting paid to PL in OT). When I swarmed OT leveling I would always leave 1-2 mob types alone so people would still have something to XP off of. It slows your XP (or more pertinent to the dongle heads, PL speed), but it allows other people to actually utilize the zone besides the ones swarming.

[Ezrick]

Has anyone just been killing mobs in a decent place such as an outdoor zone and bam - 100 mobs train by you, a few socially aggro you and you die?

You begin to ask yourself "Where the hell did that come from??" and then you think "I camped here because its pretty chill and easy to manage pulls"

Well, those are very common thoughts when that happens.

Now the real question is, does the bard consider the players that they train over and kill from social aggro?

No.

Do they consider the time wasted from a CR, rez and medding up?

No.

So what gain is it to log in and try to level?

None. Its grief and hard to level up. I lose 1/2 my night from CR's, medding and recovering from the loss. Makes me wanna just say screw it and go play another game.

I would like to hear other players thoughts on bard training from swarm kiting. It's not exactly intentional training, but it is collateral damage due to their lack of respect for others in outdoor zones.

There have been a few adventures I have recently seen bard swarm kites kill me along with others. It's almost like an epidemic in outdoor leveling zones.

It needs to stop. Training is training. Sometimes its accidental, those are understandable incidents. Blatant disregard and lack of respect for others' play space / camps is getting out of control.

This is not meant to be a troll or flame thread, this is meant to discuss the current server / outdoor zone situation with bards. Keep it civil and pointed.

The bard always dies. This is why you get trained.

Typical Bard: Lazy player who has heard of this easy way to get massive xp called swarm kiting.

Swarm Kiting: Extremely precise method of killing many mobs. It requires, skill, patience, and, most importantly, a lot of hard work.

That last is the antithesis of the lazy-ass player that created the bard. Therefore, the bard ALWAYS dies.

Those twenty mobs he ran by with fifteen minutes ago? They remember you were there, and they will track you to the ends of eternity for simply being near the path of the dead idiot above.

They always die because they simply suck, the rest of us pay for it.

Try talking to one without being regaled about their latest swarm kiting glory (they died and are lying through their teeth). Can't be done, it's all you hear.

I highly recommend AE mem-blur when these idiots are sighted (not that, you know, I would EVER, actually, you know, do something like this).

:D

[fastboy21]

there are way too many bards that train through the north kc wall area. it usually isn't an issue until the bard dies...

i almost always cheer for the mobs.

i sometimes root mobs as the bard trains by and then zone/fd.

[t0lkien]

i sometimes root mobs as the bard trains by and then zone/fd.

I like the way you think, but this does next to nothing to a kiting Bard except hold the mob up a while. If you want to cause real trouble, fear bomb the kite. Not that I'm saying to do that, just tossing around hypotheticals here...

[Aviann]

I got threatened to get suspended when I began popping fireworks in front of a bard that had got me killed by running over the safe area near OT.

Also got threatened for looting all of the corpses when they were letting them rot.


Those guys were assholes and deserved it.

[t0lkien]

I got threatened to get suspended when I began popping fireworks in front of a bard that had got me killed by running over the safe area near OT.

Also got threatened for looting all of the corpses when they were letting them rot.


Those guys were assholes and deserved it.

Noone can stop you looting rotting corpses. It's in the game by design. Just do it. I really doubt any GM is going to suspend you for fighting back if they are being disruptive too... they like to cry like little babies in /ooc when people threaten it though (as a fellow Bard I can mess with them easily, and pretty much with impunity). Honestly, if they are getting people killed and being arrogant about it, I'd have no problem fear-bombing them into oblivion.

OT I can understand a bit, as it's now a "kiting" zone and so huge, and fairly easy to stay out of the way as a group (which should be fighting on the walls anyway). But in DL it's just obnoxious. Pulling huge swarms of blue and red mobs over groups fighting against the castle walls and then denying any culpability when things inevitably go wrong is griefing pure and simple. I don't know for certain, but Sirken takes a very dim view of any sort of training (he hates it), and I don't think they'd get much sympathy from him if things were to *cough* backfire.

[Trouble]

Now you are all talking about intentional disruption and griefing as a way of fighting back on an innocent person trying to get exp.

Bards are the heroes of the server.

[fastboy21]

yeah....poor bards. QQ

[Aviann]

no.

[Weekapaug]

The problem isn't with bards, aoe kiting (not the same as "swarming" kind of a peeve of mine), or with how aggro works. The problem is with douchebags and we have those in droves here.

Always have a couple of options in mind for where you are going to be levelling with a given toon at a given level, because 8 out of 10 times you are settled into a zone, some douche nozzle will show up and fuck it up for you. You have to get past worrying about it and move to option B or C. I don't care if you are 50 in a group crawling a dungeon, chances are some farmer will move ahead and cherry pick the nameds or if you are level 5 in Crushbone, some epiced fungi wearing alt will solo everything while 2 groups sit there and watch.

There are very nice respectful people here. But we have a higher population of complete nutsacks than you would have found on any server live. In EQ, and gaming in general, calling someone a "noob" is the holy grail of insults, for some reason. I actually like noobs. It's the lamer poons, I can't stand. In surfing we call them "kooks." It has nothing to do be with being a noob or how well you surf, but how you behave. The greatest surfer in the world can still be a kook if he drops in on people or acts like an idiot in or out of the water. In gaming terms, lamers. The kind of people who will monopolize a zone doing whatever it is they want to do, be it PLing, soloing a tricked out alt, and yes, aoe kiting with a bard....All of which is entirely legitimate play and I do it sometimes too....Just not primetime on a weekend in a crowded zone. Whatever it is THEY want to do at a given time takes a higher priority than what x number of full groups of people at the appropriate level for the zone want to do, apparently. These are the kind of people who will train people out of a zone because they think the raid mob they are after gives them priority. And just because they can. It's just basic inconsiderate behavior and it goes on constantly in all forms, at all levels here. Because this server has a higher proportion of douchebags than a live server ever had.

Just accept that this server is packed with a disproportionate amount of assholes and have a plan in mind for alternatives because they are unaviodable here and you will be a lot happier playing here.

[fastboy21]

The problem isn't with bards, aoe kiting (not the same as "swarming" kind of a peeve of mine), or with how aggro works. The problem is with douchebags and we have those in droves here.

Always have a couple of options in mind for where you are going to be levelling with a given toon at a given level, because 8 out of 10 times you are settled into a zone, some douche nozzle will show up and fuck it up for you. You have to get past worrying about it and move to option B or C. I don't care if you are 50 in a group crawling a dungeon, chances are some farmer will move ahead and cherry pick the nameds or if you are level 5 in Crushbone, some epiced fungi wearing alt will solo everything while 2 groups sit there and watch.

There are very nice respectful people here. But we have a higher population of complete nutsacks than you would have found on any server live. In EQ, and gaming in general, calling someone a "noob" is the holy grail of insults, for some reason. I actually like noobs. It's the lamer poons, I can't stand. In surfing we call them "kooks." It has nothing to do be with being a noob or how well you surf, but how you behave. The greatest surfer in the world can still be a kook if he drops in on people or acts like an idiot in or out of the water. In gaming terms, lamers. The kind of people who will monopolize a zone doing whatever it is they want to do, be it PLing, soloing a tricked out alt, and yes, aoe kiting with a bard....All of which is entirely legitimate play and I do it sometimes too....Just not primetime on a weekend in a crowded zone. Whatever it is THEY want to do at a given time takes a higher priority than what x number of full groups of people at the appropriate level for the zone want to do, apparently. These are the kind of people who will train people out of a zone because they think the raid mob they are after gives them priority. And just because they can. It's just basic inconsiderate behavior and it goes on constantly in all forms, at all levels here. Because this server has a higher proportion of douchebags than a live server ever had.

Just accept that this server is packed with a disproportionate amount of assholes and have a plan in mind for alternatives because they are unaviodable here and you will be a lot happier playing here.

true. but one of the of the things that always intrigued me about EQ (more so than other MMOs) is that certain real life personalities are drawn to certain classes in game. Bards have always seemed to be packed with a certain stereo-typically "bard" personality. Its not necessarily just negative either.

[musashi1612]

I played a bard for 7 years on live and i will tell you this next the the cramps in my hands and the cricks in my neck Bards are ok one very big difference is the AoE kiting Vs Swarm kiting. Swarm Kiting has always been a safer method to kiting for the bard and others. AoE kiting has the chance to backfire and erupt into zone wide panic. Maybe it shouldnt be Bard AoE kiting kills other players,Yet Bard swarm kiting does not work right? the charm is ineffective at generating the agro needed to perform the higher lvl bard kiting it does need to be fixed it is classic.

[mreynert]

I played a bard for 7 years on live and i will tell you this next the the cramps in my hands and the cricks in my neck Bards are ok one very big difference is the AoE kiting Vs Swarm kiting. Swarm Kiting has always been a safer method to kiting for the bard and others. AoE kiting has the chance to backfire and erupt into zone wide panic. Maybe it shouldnt be Bard AoE kiting kills other players,Yet Bard swarm kiting does not work right? the charm is ineffective at generating the agro needed to perform the higher lvl bard kiting it does need to be fixed it is classic.

Correct, what people refer to commonly as "swarm" on this server is what I knew as AOE kiting, and what I personally call swarm kiting (get a swarm of mobs, charm one, sic it on something, have them beat it down, break charm, kill it, repeat) doesn't work as well on this server. You can still mess with it and get some work done, but not enough. Needs fixing.

[fastboy21]

from my time on live, i always used swarm kiting to refer to the charm killing (charm one, let stuff beat it down, break charm a 1%, etc) also (I played on Povar and Xev).

not sure if it was different on all live servers or if it is only different here.

[Weekapaug]

from my time on live, i always used swarm kiting to refer to the charm killing (charm one, let stuff beat it down, break charm a 1%, etc) also (I played on Povar and Xev).

not sure if it was different on all live servers or if it is only different here.

No, the same. It's here that people call AoE kiting "swarm kiting" for some reason.

[musashi1612]

the fact is that at higher lvls bards would swarm kite instead of AoE kiting it was safer and more effective imo

[webrunner5]

true. but one of the of the things that always intrigued me about EQ (more so than other MMOs) is that certain real life personalities are drawn to certain classes in game. Bards have always seemed to be packed with a certain stereo-typically "bard" personality. Its not necessarily just negative either.

I seem to remember on live that most Bards were women. Same with Cleric's. Hardly evil people.

But yeah, most Bards on here seem to be men for some reason. :confused:

[Zeonick]

I seem to remember on live that most Bards were women. Same with Cleric's. Hardly evil people.

But yeah, most Bards on here seem to be men for some reason. :confused:

Are you trying to say women aren't evil? WHO IS THIS GUY!?

[applesauce25r624]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100456

[Potus]

Boy if only there was some way to deal with players who bother you in game, say like by rooting them or killing them, if only!

[kaev]

Man, if only there was some way to deal with trolls from Red posting irrelevant bullshit into threads like this. Oh wai-

[Weekapaug]

Might be off-topic but its it just me or is the Bard the premeire FTOM class right now?

Do a /who all bard 5 20 and /who all bard 21 60 and the first one is usually double of late.

My first toon (weekapaug) was a bard and I stopped playing at 5 because the ex wasn't into duoing anything that went well with a bard so we changed to other toons, but I've been kind of itching to start playing him again. Lot of bard hate going around lately, it seems, and it sounds like it's fairly well deserved by the way people are playing them here. Kiting is fun as hell, but bards really shine in groups.

[fastboy21]

Man, if only there was some way to deal with trolls from Red posting irrelevant bullshit into threads like this. Oh wai-

Nobody plays on red...they have to come to blue forums to talk to someone else.

**hold my hand**

[Hawala]

I've been saying this for so long; as I recall this wasn't a huge problem on live since most computers and/or connections weren't fast enough to handle these kinds of trains.

[fastboy21]

Most bards aren't very good at it...from what I can tell there are a handful of bards that have this down to a science and truly monopolize entire zones (DL, SK, OT, etc.).

Lots of the bards I see are just playing around with it to see if they can do it.

[Glosk]

Here is what I encountered in Dreadlands. This swarm was ran over North Wall of Karnor and I had to FD because i was worried about social aggro. This bard named Water later pulled the swarm to SW of Karnor to the ice patch and killed it apparently PL'ing a rogue named Belal.

This is a constant interuption, hassle, annoyance from bards in every outdoor zone I go to for solo'ing. If I dont get a dungeon group, I'm forced here.

I know nothing will ever become of it. There are some bards that respect that others are trying to XP and take necessary precautions but there are some bards that dont GAS(give a sh$t) and pull on top of you like this bard did to me.

[agdros]

In this thread, nobody knows how agro works in P99.

If you want to discuss this, you need to define your terms. The use of the term "social agro" is used so many times in this thread and I havn't found one person that explains how it works.

Agro on p99 does not work the same as Live, and never has.

Go do some tests with a high and low lvl chars in EC. Do not group. Have the high lvl char agro Lord Shin Rae and run over the low lvl char, multiple times. Then go zone the agro on the high lvl char. Mix it up and have the low lvl fight some random mobs like a snake, or an orc pawn. Check your results.

[fastboy21]

In this thread, nobody knows how agro works in P99.

If you want to discuss this, you need to define your terms. The use of the term "social agro" is used so many times in this thread and I havn't found one person that explains how it works.

Agro on p99 does not work the same as Live, and never has.

Go do some tests with a high and low lvl chars in EC. Do not group. Have the high lvl char agro Lord Shin Rae and run over the low lvl char, multiple times. Then go zone the agro on the high lvl char. Mix it up and have the low lvl fight some random mobs like a snake, or an orc pawn. Check your results.

the problem with the bard kiting (when the bard dies) isn't the social aggro described by others above. You are 100% right about this. The problem is that when the trained horde starts to wander back across the zone. So many times in DL that I've gotten jumped by mobs coming from behind me at nwall due to bard death/zoning.

[pasi]

Just heal the low HP kiter. Them folks won't be bothering you any more.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Just heal the low HP kiter. Them folks won't be bothering you any more.

Sure it will insta-kill the damager, but then

(1) You will have hundreds of angry mobs after you
(2) You will either die or cause the problem of sending hundreds of mobs across the zone when you zone out, thereby becoming the bad guy

edit: regardless of what happens you will send tons of mobs across the zone

[webrunner5]

Sure it will insta-kill the damager, but then

(1) You will have hundreds of angry mobs after you
(2) You will either die or cause the problem of sending hundreds of mobs across the zone when you zone out, thereby becoming the bad guy

edit: regardless of what happens you will send tons of mobs across the zone

What he said. :eek:

[Weekapaug]

Here is what I encountered in Dreadlands.

Hate to say it, but that's an impressive kite.

[Issues]

@OP QQ thread...

Bards primarily do their thing in just 3 zones. OT, DL and BW.

If you're so concerned about it try to adventure elsewhere...EQ is a huge world. If you're a class that can handle dungeons do that but maybe not since it will be much harder than pulling a single mob to a safe spot and a cpl bards roamin around.

inc next: QQ about social aggro, see invis, CR etc

[Conky]

@OP QQ thread...

Bards primarily do their thing in just 3 zones. OT, DL and BW.

If you're so concerned about it try to adventure elsewhere...EQ is a huge world. If you're a class that can handle dungeons do that but maybe not since it will be much harder than pulling a single mob to a safe spot and a cpl bards roamin around.

inc next: QQ about social aggro, see invis, CR etc

No, its more then 3 zones add loio, SK , NK, EK and a few more the main problem is that most bards are very bad at it and kill people.

[big league chew]

just snare or root the bard
shits ez

[zanderklocke]

No, its more then 3 zones add loio, SK , NK, EK and a few more the main problem is that most bards are very bad at it and kill people.

Don't forget EJ and FM...or any zone that has mobs that aren't casters.

Honestly though, these threads are a circle jerk that pop up every other month or so.

[Weekapaug]

So fearing the mobs in the kite will do what?

[zanderklocke]

So fearing the mobs in the kite will do what?

Makes the mobs go boom in all directions. Basically destroys the kite and can easily get the bard killed. I'm pretty sure you could get in trouble with this though; it's sort of the same type of interruption as training a player with intent.

Obviously, debate will go back and forth saying that bards are disrupting/disturbing players the same way that training/fearing someone's mobs is, but staff sort of looks the other way with bard kiting and has a definite opinion on training or harassing other players' mobs while they are engaged.

The debate is a circle jerk. Staff have not cared about people's complaints in the past about bard kiting. Honestly, I think they view issues like this as a case by case basis in regards to the specific players.

Should no bards be allowed to kite or only those be allowed that take a reasonable amount of mobs and are courteous to other players? I mean the whole thing is sort of silly and difficult to police.

[zanderklocke]

I always thought that on live low hp kiting was not possible because if a player had agro on more than 4 mobs, the fifth, sixth, etc. would run back and forth and act erraticly.

No idea. I didn't play a bard back on classic live. By the time I played a bard, kiting had been nerfed...but that was in a later expansion than Velious. No idea how to verify whether or not low-hp kiting was viable on classic. I've never even read about it before anywhere online. When I figured it out on the server a little over a year ago, it sort of seemed hush hush. However, since then, there has been an explosion in people knowing about the mechanic and using it; hence, this thread pops up every other month.

I mean dang, low-hp aggro even messes up different bards in the zone. If one bard runs his mobs through yours and he goes hp, all of your mobs snap off you.

[Weekapaug]

Should no bards be allowed to kite or only those be allowed that take a reasonable amount of mobs and are courteous to other players? I mean the whole thing is sort of silly and difficult to police.

Well, I rather enjoyed AoE kiting with my bard live...always did it in empty zones out of anyone's way....'till it got nerfed for everyone when a handful of bards were monopolizing PoF during primetime constantly. That was a very popular exp zone at the time and they were making the "front page news" so to speak with it enough that it got nerfed for all of us.

It could be policed by doing what was done on live....Nerfing the dots. Not saying they should but, yeah, there's live precident for it. Not classic, but neither is entire zones constantly being disrupted and monopolized by a few bards. No one AoE kited until much later and if they did, very few people even knew about it. I played A TON of EQ up till around GoD or so...The first I ever heard of bard AoE kiting was when Stromm went live and the first handful of players to get to top level were bards who AoE'd...This would have been around LDoN or LoY, or maybe even early GoD...I seem to remember 70 being top level at the time, but I could be wrong about that...I do remember it was spring/summer of '03 for sure tho. WAY past Velious. I don't even think swarming was really happening until PoP or later. People were charm kiting, for sure, but not the mass swarms that came later and there were, still, very few people doing it, and because it was conditional on the degree of social aggro of the mobs you were swarming, it wasn't a major problem in every zone. I came back around OoW or early DoN and the AoE nerf had just happened...That's when swarming kind of took over. Point being, these are techniques that came after the scope of this server. The nerf might have come later, but so did this type of kiting to begin with...and come it did.

Bards who enjoy AoE kiting would do well to remember that the squeeky wheel tends to get the grease. For the sake of their class and their enjoyment of it they might be a bit more concientious of what they are doing. If they keep training people and disrupting normal play, that undoubtably creates a heavier /petition load for the staff to deal with it. There ARE a lot of unclassic things on this server that exist for the intent of preserving a classic experience...no boxing even though boxing existed, for example. People boxed during classic, for sure, but it was nowhere near as popular and didn't have the impact on grouping that it did later. So the fix here was to outright ban boxing altogether from the start. An un-classic fix to keep the server classic.

The entire problem goes away with one simple nerf.

[kaev]

The dickweeds causing most of the disruption would probably be more than happy causing a bard nerf. Sure, they'd put up a bold front of whining and umadbro, all the while fapping madly and telling themselves how awesome it is that they only needed one flashlight this time to find their dick in the massive folds of blubber. Griefplay is griefplay, ban the practice, ban the assholes, and a glorious sunrise of whateverthefuckelsepeoplewanttowhineaboutnext would dawn over Norrath.

v0v

[senna]

At the end of the day its causing more harm than good for the server. The moving mob DoT nerf for bards should probably be implimented soon.

The way things stand now, having every outdoor zone monopolized by swarming bards is not classic.

[zanderklocke]

I think low-hp aggro should be nerfed before nerfing AE kiting. Low-hp aggro is the reason there are do many bards at all times AE leveling. There is no risk to do it, and it has the ability to screw up everyone else's aggro on mobs in zone. I'll admit that I did it a bunch last summer to level up because I wasn't that good at AE kiting at the time due to lag. However, with low-hp aggro working how it does there is no reason why people wouldn't level up as a bard doing it, hence so many bards...super easy to hit level 50.

Without low hp aggro, BW, DL, FM, and EJ can't even really be used to level up by bards.

However, my personal stance is that it none of this should be nerfed unless it is proven to not be classic; I just think the ability to low-hp kite as a duo should be removed before the classic feature of solo AE kiting is.

Petition if you believe a player is intentionally disrupting a zone.

[Broomfondle]

Level of jimmies rustled - over 9000!

[webrunner5]

Jesus, most of the zones Bards kite in are crap. And if you can't see a kite coming with 50 mobs in it or more you must be AFK 90% of the time in the middle of those zones. :rolleyes:

[t0lkien]

At the end of the day its causing more harm than good for the server. The moving mob DoT nerf for bards should probably be implimented soon.

The way things stand now, having every outdoor zone monopolized by swarming bards is not classic.

http://i.imgur.com/t8Gxwaj.png

(Not that I'm in favour of the low HP kiting thing, but I don't know why people keep asking for changes that aren't classic. They're not going to happen.)

[Weekapaug]

The no boxing rule isn't classic. I knew more than several boxers during classic thru velious. No RMT isn't classic. Well, technically wasn't allowed but it's not like it was ever enforced in any substantial way. Raid mob variance...Not classic. And the list goes on and on.

Yet we have all of these things here as an attempt to preserve some semblence of a classic experience, don't we?

As I said before, I'm not necessarily in favor of a nerf. Would actually hate to see it happen. But what is going on here with bards monopolizing entire zones never happened live until eras much later than this. The mechanics were in place but they weren't removed until they became a problem much later. It was not a problem until later because no one was doing it until later. According to a lot of people, it is a problem here, now.

Simple logic dicates that you can't have it both ways.

[t0lkien]

The no boxing rule isn't classic. I knew more than several boxers during classic thru velious. No RMT isn't classic. Well, technically wasn't allowed but it's not like it was ever enforced in any substantial way. Raid mob variance...Not classic. And the list goes on and on.

Yet we have all of these things here as an attempt to preserve some semblence of a classic experience, don't we?

As I said before, I'm not necessarily in favor of a nerf. Would actually hate to see it happen. But what is going on here with bards monopolizing entire zones never happened live until eras much later than this. The mechanics were in place but they weren't removed until they became a problem much later. It was not a problem until later because no one was doing it until later. According to a lot of people, it is a problem here, now.

Simple logic dicates that you can't have it both ways.

Not to get into a he said/she said, but all those things you have used as examples are non-examples. Variance is an attempt to simulate the patch/crash repop that happened on live and fortuitously helped to work against single-guild dominance back then. From what I hear it's probably going to be replaced with simulated server "patch" days so it's a moot point anyway.

RMT will never go away, but you better believe they pursued those who took part in it and banned accounts continually all through live. That's a horrible example to choose. No-boxing on a free server makes complete sense. It's a binary choice to have it or not. It's true lots of people boxed on classic, but then as they were paying for each account that was their perogative really (the spell checker tries to change that to "pRerogative" btw mods). In a situation where accounts are free and systems are capable of running multiple versions of the game (as opposed to having to fork out for separate systems and a fast enough connection etc. back in the day), there is really no other choice.

Saying "some semblance of classic" is just being sullen. The server is very close to classic, and that's the idea. That isn't going to change, and hopefully will get closer to classic as things go on, not further away. They aren't trying to correct any of the faults with the game, they are trying to recreate the classic experience on modern systems with modern bandwidth - and that's why we're all here. The game wasn't perfect in its original form, but it was what it was and that is part of the magic of it. That includes exploits and bugs, and imbalances - including low HP kiting (which I agree is absurd and I refuse to do it for that reason).

What is continually bemusing is how so many on the forums angrily put forward non-classic changes as if they are reasonable and "logical" (whatever that means in the context of recreation). It's a classic server. The things that aren't exact are being moved toward being more exact, not further away. Suggestions that are completely contradictory to that due to personal bugbears are downright silly. It doesn't matter what we like or don't like about classic mechanics, that's the mandate of the server.

And it's working, and I for one love it, problems and all.

[wrxBRAH]

1) Bind in zone, preferably on the opposite end

2) Heal their hp kiter

3) Gate and relog to reset your aggro


Problem solved.

[DarkwingDuck]

1) Bind in zone, preferably on the opposite end

2) Heal their hp kiter

3) Gate and relog to reset your aggro


Problem solved.

I love this

[runlvlzero]

On red 99 u can spam root on them and it will land.

[webrunner5]

I remember on Live Sony must have threatened to sue Ebay for selling RMT. Because they just stopped doing it one day. Same thing happened with Fake Rolex Watches. They stopped in a day also.

[Briscoe]

but then as they were paying for each account that was their perogative really (the spell checker tries to change that to "pRerogative" btw mods).

As it should.

[Weekapaug]

Not to get into a he said/she said, but all those things you have used as examples are non-examples. Variance is an attempt to simulate the patch/crash repop that happened on live and fortuitously helped to work against single-guild dominance back then. From what I hear it's probably going to be replaced with simulated server "patch" days so it's a moot point anyway.

RMT will never go away, but you better believe they pursued those who took part in it and banned accounts continually all through live. That's a horrible example to choose. No-boxing on a free server makes complete sense. It's a binary choice to have it or not. It's true lots of people boxed on classic, but then as they were paying for each account that was their perogative really (the spell checker tries to change that to "pRerogative" btw mods). In a situation where accounts are free and systems are capable of running multiple versions of the game (as opposed to having to fork out for separate systems and a fast enough connection etc. back in the day), there is really no other choice.

Saying "some semblance of classic" is just being sullen. The server is very close to classic, and that's the idea. That isn't going to change, and hopefully will get closer to classic as things go on, not further away. They aren't trying to correct any of the faults with the game, they are trying to recreate the classic experience on modern systems with modern bandwidth - and that's why we're all here. The game wasn't perfect in its original form, but it was what it was and that is part of the magic of it. That includes exploits and bugs, and imbalances - including low HP kiting (which I agree is absurd and I refuse to do it for that reason).

What is continually bemusing is how so many on the forums angrily put forward non-classic changes as if they are reasonable and "logical" (whatever that means in the context of recreation). It's a classic server. The things that aren't exact are being moved toward being more exact, not further away. Suggestions that are completely contradictory to that due to personal bugbears are downright silly. It doesn't matter what we like or don't like about classic mechanics, that's the mandate of the server.

And it's working, and I for one love it, problems and all.

Nah, there were some big show-y examples made of blatant RMTers but the vast majority of it went unnoticed and eventually Sony even got in on the game with the Cash Store. Same thing with use of 3rd party programs. That got policed heavily while the orginal verant team was still there, but after a while they just stopped trying to enforce it. People would have to blatantly warp etc in the presence of a GM to even raise an eyebrow. Instead of stepping up efforts to fight it, Sony levelled the field some by adding Mercs. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Again, there are plenty of examples on non-Classic things here that are in place in an effort to be classic. The no-boxing rule is a great example. Boxing was entirely classic, but during classic it was not done to the extent that it was done later to the detriment of grouping. So we have an actively enforced no-boxing policy here. Bards were not mass AoE kiting, training people and disrupting normal play until much later eras. I'm simply arguing that it's not classic, because no one was doing it. Others would argue that it works against the health of the server.

And, again, you can't have it both ways. Logic, my friend. If bards can monopolize entire zones with kiting methods that, in practice, weren't happening during the classic era, then why can't we box, when that was?

Repectfully, your argument goes back and forth and makes no sense at all.

[mcappy]

Nah, there were some big show-y examples made of blatant RMTers but the vast majority of it went unnoticed and eventually Sony even got in on the game with the Cash Store. Same thing with use of 3rd party programs. That got policed heavily while the orginal verant team was still there, but after a while they just stopped trying to enforce it. People would have to blatantly warp etc in the presence of a GM to even raise an eyebrow. Instead of stepping up efforts to fight it, Sony levelled the field some by adding Mercs. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Again, there are plenty of examples on non-Classic things here that are in place in an effort to be classic. The no-boxing rule is a great example. Boxing was entirely classic, but during classic it was not done to the extent that it was done later to the detriment of grouping. So we have an actively enforced no-boxing policy here. Bards were not mass AoE kiting, training people and disrupting normal play until much later eras. I'm simply arguing that it's not classic, because no one was doing it. Others would argue that it works against the health of the server.

And, again, you can't have it both ways. Logic, my friend. If bards can monopolize entire zones with kiting methods that, in practice, weren't happening during the classic era, then why can't we box, when that was?

Repectfully, your argument goes back and forth and makes no sense at all.

Two-boxing and RMT were against the rules, though. Just because they weren't as good at catching people or didn't want to invest the resources required doesn't mean it was 'classic'. I think they made two-boxing legal sometime in Luclin, but it may have been a bit earlier. They were even banning people for using WinEQ in the early days (remember the debacle when they probed your running processes and EQ folder for cheats and banned a bunch of WinEQ players?).

As far as bard AoE kiting goes, I'm not sure if it's "not classic" because it wasn't possible back then or if it's "not classic" because people didn't figure it out until a bit later. Swarm kiting was a big thing in Kunark (though it was usually TD raptors), but I don't recall ever seeing a bard AoE kite until PoP.

[Weekapaug]

Two boxing was never against the rules. Ever. The WinEQ thing was because it was a 3rd party program, not because it was being used to box. They eventually put in windowed mode and stopped enforcing the 3rd party rule on that particular application, even though they never really called it legal per-se. I suppose kind of like how they turn a blind eye to EMUs in general, now. It's not sanctioned, but they aren't exactly shutting them down either.

People charm kited but there were never the mass swarms or AoE kites until way after the scope of this server. I get into that more in a previous post.

[Galelor]

Nah, there were some big show-y examples made of blatant RMTers but the vast majority of it went unnoticed and eventually Sony even got in on the game with the Cash Store. Same thing with use of 3rd party programs. That got policed heavily while the orginal verant team was still there, but after a while they just stopped trying to enforce it. People would have to blatantly warp etc in the presence of a GM to even raise an eyebrow. Instead of stepping up efforts to fight it, Sony levelled the field some by adding Mercs. Etc. Etc. Etc.


This is not true, as they were still trying to enforce 3rd party program use rules. I knew several people that were banned, after mercs came out, for 3rd party use. One of my characters was also banned. There were not 'warp in front of gm' type offenses.

[Weekapaug]

This is not true, as they were still trying to enforce 3rd party program use rules. I knew several people that were banned, after mercs came out, for 3rd party use. One of my characters was also banned. There were not 'warp in front of gm' type offenses.

Well good on them if they stepped it up. While I've been back a few times just to check things out since mercs, I stopped playing for real just before mercs went in and there were MQers freaking everywhere. Got to be ridiculous how much of that was going on, really. Used to literally watch people warp across freaking PoK.

[kaev]

Not to get into a he said/she said, but all those things you have used as examples are non-examples. Variance is an attempt to simulate the patch/crash repop that happened on live and fortuitously helped to work against single-guild dominance back then. From what I hear it's probably going to be replaced with simulated server "patch" days so it's a moot point anyway.

RMT will never go away, but you better believe they pursued those who took part in it and banned accounts continually all through live. That's a horrible example to choose. No-boxing on a free server makes complete sense. It's a binary choice to have it or not. It's true lots of people boxed on classic, but then as they were paying for each account that was their perogative really (the spell checker tries to change that to "pRerogative" btw mods). In a situation where accounts are free and systems are capable of running multiple versions of the game (as opposed to having to fork out for separate systems and a fast enough connection etc. back in the day), there is really no other choice.

Saying "some semblance of classic" is just being sullen. The server is very close to classic, and that's the idea. That isn't going to change, and hopefully will get closer to classic as things go on, not further away. They aren't trying to correct any of the faults with the game, they are trying to recreate the classic experience on modern systems with modern bandwidth - and that's why we're all here. The game wasn't perfect in its original form, but it was what it was and that is part of the magic of it. That includes exploits and bugs, and imbalances - including low HP kiting (which I agree is absurd and I refuse to do it for that reason).

What is continually bemusing is how so many on the forums angrily put forward non-classic changes as if they are reasonable and "logical" (whatever that means in the context of recreation). It's a classic server. The things that aren't exact are being moved toward being more exact, not further away. Suggestions that are completely contradictory to that due to personal bugbears are downright silly. It doesn't matter what we like or don't like about classic mechanics, that's the mandate of the server.

And it's working, and I for one love it, problems and all.

To have classic bards they would have to lag them to death every time they agro'd more than 15-20 mobs. This bard shit is NOT classic.

[fastboy21]

considering the ddos history of p99, you can almost call it even.

[webrunner5]

To have classic bards they would have to lag them to death every time they agro'd more than 15-20 mobs. This bard shit is NOT classic.

Yeah, you weren't going to kite 50 mobs on dialup trust me.

[Wudan]

the problem is with ppl like Xaylen who are pulling OT 10hrs a day. I mean take a fucking break and quit being a jerk to everyone else in the zone.

[Silent]

Red must suck. All carebear reds do is post here....

wahhh someones taking up my entire zone and i cant do anything about it, reroll red stop crying. root/snare said kiter, problem solved, again. so glad i don't play blue, all those fte rules and poopsocking and whining over camp checks must suck. none of that on red, you take what you want.

[CharlesBarkley]

wahhh someones taking up my entire zone and i cant do anything about it, reroll red stop crying. root/snare said kiter, problem solved, again. so glad i don't play blue, all those fte rules and poopsocking and whining over camp checks must suck. none of that on red, you take what you want.

i'm sure thats worth a 50 person server

[t0lkien]

wahhh someones taking up my entire zone and i cant do anything about it, reroll red stop crying. root/snare said kiter, problem solved, again. so glad i don't play blue, all those fte rules and poopsocking and whining over camp checks must suck. none of that on red, you take what you want.

There's the recipe for fair and grief-free gameplay we've been looking for!

[Ravager]

I'm assuming the people complaining are the druids root rotting mobs while they wait for someone to pay them for a port to WC, so why not just charm a few rhinos and sow them? Bard problem solved.

[wrxBRAH]

I'm assuming the people complaining are the druids root rotting mobs while they wait for someone to pay them for a port to WC, so why not just charm a few rhinos and sow them? Bard problem solved.

As a druid I have no problem finding plenty of mobs in OT to charm and exp off of. A solo druid doesnt need many mobs to keep their exp coming in relatively fast. The people hurt by the bards are groups.

[Lyra]

As a druid I have no problem finding plenty of mobs in OT to charm and exp off of. A solo druid doesnt need many mobs to keep their exp coming in relatively fast. The people hurt by the bards are groups.

On my druid, I leveled 30 to 50 solo ALL in OT. Finding mobs to kill was not a problem, but finding the right level animal to charm sometimes required me to pull a tiger from the swarm. Communication is key.

My cleric leveled in Droga and City of Mist. I highly recommend it.

[wrxBRAH]

On my druid, I leveled 30 to 50 solo ALL in OT. Finding mobs to kill was not a problem, but finding the right level animal to charm sometimes required me to pull a tiger from the swarm. Communication is key.

My cleric leveled in Droga and City of Mist. I highly recommend it.

Damn 50? Isnt everything green/light blue by 42?

[Stinkum]

the problem is with ppl like Xaylen who are pulling OT 10hrs a day. I mean take a fucking break and quit being a jerk to everyone else in the zone.

I always wondered how people like Capi could do their 7-hour daily PL sessions in Overthere ever since 2012. That's over 8 months, pretty much every day, for multiple hours per day. I mean, really?

[TWDL_Prexus]

Damn 50? Isnt everything green/light blue by 42?
Negative. Did 45 in only a couple hours on my druid in OT.

[wrxBRAH]

I always wondered how people like Capi could do their 7-hour daily PL sessions in Overthere ever since 2012. That's over 8 months, pretty much every day, for multiple hours per day. I mean, really?

You cant really beat 15k+ pp a day consistently. He could afford a fungi every week or two and can buy most of his high end gear that way in 3-4 months. Beats raiding, dkp and all the drama associated with it.

[Gimp]

Most of the bards in OT are asshats that consider it their zone to do as they wish with. Kadus and Xaylen immediately come to mind.

[zanderklocke]

I always wondered how people like Capi could do their 7-hour daily PL sessions in Overthere ever since 2012. That's over 8 months, pretty much every day, for multiple hours per day. I mean, really?

Any time I did more than 4 hours of PLing, I had to take a break. I'm not sure how Rojas and his brothers were able to push out 12 hour days of leveling characters to sell for money. That would make me want to jump off a bridge. Maybe if I charged as much as Capi, I would have been more content doing it, but I don't think so. Usually made like 800p per level I got a person since I charged 2.5K per hour.

[wrxBRAH]

Shits getting old. If bards wanna swarm, be my guest. If you want to swarm over my camp multiple times and not respect my camp, I'll retaliate. Hopefully it doesn't get me banned but if it does, so be it.


Been run over in OT about 10 times today. No mobs anywhere and when you get some, you have a swarm on you.

[Clark]

the scourge that is the bard train.

[Xumosa]

Fuck bards

[drrcm8]

Roll a bard. Now try resisting the temptation to swarm kite and level several times faster than you normally would using any other method.

Exactly.

[Acrux Bcrux]

OT, DL and BW blow anyway for leveling anything becides a bard. Think outside of the box, live, and get better xp derpaderp

[Champion_Standing]

It comes down to one thing and one thing only, common courtesy.

Unfortunately, the concept is completely lost on a large portion of this server. One of the most telling facts is that the most well known asshat kiter continues to get business. It isn't hard to kite and not shit all over everyone else in the zone...but when you are dealing with a server where 50%+ of the server is autistic it can be difficult to make them understand why and how it is rude and pisses people off.

[wrxBRAH]

Derubael (GM) just laid down the law in Overthere. About time!

[indiscriminate_hater]

Derubael (GM) just laid down the law in Overthere. About time!

story?

[Derubael]

Not much of a story. Just follow the server rules.

Your swarm, your responsibility. Keep it away from other players in the zone. If you run your swarm over someone in the zone, even if your mobs don't aggro right away, if you die, they are going to go after every player you ran by. Bottom line is keep your swarms away from other players. Don't steal mobs from other players. Pretty simple.

Doesn't matter if this is intentional or not. "I didn't see him, I was moving too fast" and other excuses are not going to cut it anymore. The days of bards indiscriminately running their swarms over other players is over. If I see you doing it, I will likely summon you into your own swarm and freeze you in place, then remove you from the zone for a few hours. Continuing to inconvenience other players will result in further action.

Nothing wrong with swarming. Pull the whole zone if you can do it without breaking any rules. Just make sure you keep that swarm far, far away from other people in the zone, and you'll be fine.

I assure you, I will be watching. Happy hunting!

[indiscriminate_hater]

Not much of a story. Just follow the server rules.

Your swarm, your responsibility. Keep it away from other players in the zone. If you run your swarm over someone in the zone, even if your mobs don't aggro right away, if you die, they are going to go after every player you ran by. Bottom line is keep your swarms away from other players. Don't steal mobs from other players. Pretty simple.

Doesn't matter if this is intentional or not. "I didn't see him, I was moving too fast" and other excuses are not going to cut it anymore. The days of bards indiscriminately running their swarms over other players is over. If I see you doing it, I will likely summon you into your own swarm and freeze you in place, then remove you from the zone for a few hours. Continuing to inconvenience other players will result in further action.

Nothing wrong with swarming. Pull the whole zone if you can do it without breaking any rules. Just make sure you keep that swarm far, far away from other people in the zone, and you'll be fine.

I assure you, I will be watching. Happy hunting!

i'm all about serving justice to irresponsible AOE kiters, and I'm not trying to undermine your authority, but wouldn't summoning the kiter into their own train (1) result in their death and, more importantly, (2) unleash the train onto the zone, potentially killing the people you are trying to protect?

and also, is action taken when the train "runs over" a player and doesn't aggro them? for example, if a kiter's train happens to path over somebody running in the middle of the zone, but the kiter does not die and no mobs ever aggro the person who came into aggro range of the train, does disciplinary action still take place? the way you describe it, you will be punishing people for random happenings in addition to the irresponsible running of trains over players camped at the zone edges. in either case, i don't see how running a train by anyone who doesn't catch any aggro is breaking any rules*.

again, i'm not trying to undermine any authority. i think the discipline will do great things, but i think it's best to be as clear as possible about this.


* EDIT: i stand corrected -- it looks like "running a train over a camp" is against the rules. from the global server rules:

"You take all responsibility for mobs that you aggro. If you are trying to escape from a pack of NPC's but there is another group in your way, do not run through them. Even if your intention is not to train them, it would inevitable cause this and you may be subject to disciplinary"

however, this is still a bit ambiguous when it comes to defining a "group in your way." if you actively keep your train away from all known camps in the zone, and still manage to run it over a person running through the middle of the zone without any aggro transferring, is this punishable?

[Derubael]

i'm all about serving justice to irresponsible AOE kiters, and I'm not trying to undermine your authority, but wouldn't summoning the kiter into their own train (1) result in their death and, more importantly, (2) unleash the train onto the zone, potentially killing the people you are trying to protect?

You are absolutely correct, which is why before doing something like this I will announce to the zone that a swarm is about to break and run all over the place.


and also, is action taken when the train "runs over" a player and doesn't aggro them? for example, if a kiter's train happens to path over somebody running in the middle of the zone, but the kiter does not die and no mobs ever aggro the person who came into aggro range of the train, does disciplinary action still take place? the way you describe it, you will be punishing people for random happenings in addition to the irresponsible running of trains over players camped at the zone edges. in either case, i don't see how running a train by anyone who doesn't catch any aggro is breaking any rules.

again, i'm not trying to undermine any authority. i think the discipline will do great things, but i think it's best to be as clear as possible about this.

Yes, I am saying that even if you do not get attacked right away, I will still be taking action. Those mobs will be adding the player that was passed by to their hate list, even if it's at the bottom.

From the server rules thread:
Training
Training can be defined as the intentional manipulation of NPC Placement and Aggro in such a way that causes it to attack another player that it wouldn't have otherwise if at it's normal spawn location. The most basic form of this is "dumping" mobs near another player or party and escaping via a form of teleportation or death. Intentional or not, this is against the rules. This rule is not limited to the basic example given, as there are many different forms of training players will use. You take all responsibility for mobs that you aggro. If you are trying to escape from a pack of NPC's but there is another group in your way, do not run through them. Even if your intention is not to train them, it would inevitable cause this and you may be subject to disciplinary. It is recommended that you take the death (Your responsibility for aggroing the mobs) and request a resurrection from nearby players.

I want people to keep their swarms away from other players. It causes too many problems, deaths, and petitions, and honestly it's not that difficult. Just show a little discretion when grabbing your swarms and you'll be fine.

My sincere hope is that everyone plays nice and I can leave everyone alone.


**edit** looks like you beat me to it

however, this is still a bit ambiguous when it comes to defining a "group in your way." if you actively keep your train away from all known camps in the zone, and still manage to run it over a person running through the middle of the zone without any aggro transferring, is this punishable?

Do your best to avoid people running through the zone. Again, this shouldn't be that difficult. Keep in mind that each situation will be evaluated as it comes, but use this as a baseline. For example, if there's some bard hater intentionally trying to get trained by running around your swarm/getting in your way, I'm not going to punish you. But if someone is just trying to cross the zone to get to the OT outpost from WW, you need to make sure your swarm doesn't go near them.

[Mandalore93]

P99 nanny state. Now its completely understandable for the bard to be aware of common camps in a zone, but to be responsible for literally every player in the zone? This seems to be the vocal minority making a much bigger issue out of this than it needs to be. There are, what, like three zones that are heavily used by bards?

Apparently Bard kiting is important enough to warrant specific GM action but VP is a free for all? There are many zones and often much better zones than the three main bard haunts for leveling but only one VP

[Doktoor]

As someone who's done some AE kiting, its not that difficult to avoid people in these zones - you know where they're gonna be.

The problem comes from a bard using too much area while pulling - getting too far from your pull while pulling more.

Selos allows you to get all over the zone and let your pack continue to accrue while you're way off getting more.

If you just stay close to your pack as you pull more and look out for people, then it's not that hard to keep them from getting anyone else on the hate list.

I only did it for a few levels in the 30s. It's boring and hard on the wrists.

[wrxBRAH]

P99 nanny state. Now its completely understandable for the bard to be aware of common camps in a zone, but to be responsible for literally every player in the zone? This seems to be the vocal minority making a much bigger issue out of this than it needs to be. There are, what, like three zones that are heavily used by bards?

Apparently Bard kiting is important enough to warrant specific GM action but VP is a free for all? There are many zones and often much better zones than the three main bard haunts for leveling but only one VP

No one is saying Bards can't swarm kite. But if you continue to run your swarms by others camps getting them killed, you will be held responsible. Seems pretty fair to me. Would you rather they ban swarm kiting instead of finding a middle ground?

[Tecmos Deception]

GMs enforcing the training rules as written?

That's pretty awesome :)


But if someone is just trying to cross the zone to get to the OT outpost from WW, you need to make sure your swarm doesn't go near them.

But this isn't right, is it? Current aggro mechanics would not cause the bard's pull to add a random passerby to the aggro list, would they? That person would have to be engaged with a mob that mobs in the train assist, right?

[senna]

Strong agenda there Derubael, what did the evil bard do to your family?

Jk


But seriously, sad to see the crybabies getting their own rent a cop in OT.

Shits classic, deal with it.

[Conky]

Strong agenda there Derubael, what did the evil bard do to your family?

Jk


But seriously, sad to see the crybabies getting their own rent a cop in OT.

Shits classic, deal with it.

Getting ran over by 50 mobs and then 2min later have them all aggro you cause the bard died is not classic its being a douche. It happened to me last week I sent the bard a tell saying plz dont run your train over me cause I dont want them all when you die, he responded with only shitty bards die and Im not shitty, deal with it. Well 20 min later I run into his corpse on my way out the zone, way too many bards who just dont give a shit, my main is a bard, you dont have to be a dick to the entire zone to AoE kite.

[BillyCranston]

P99 nanny state. Now its completely understandable for the bard to be aware of common camps in a zone, but to be responsible for literally every player in the zone? This seems to be the vocal minority making a much bigger issue out of this than it needs to be. There are, what, like three zones that are heavily used by bards?

Apparently Bard kiting is important enough to warrant specific GM action but VP is a free for all? There are many zones and often much better zones than the three main bard haunts for leveling but only one VP


Do please shut up. Is this thread about raiding? Or is this thread about swarm kiting in open leveling zones? Seriously, go suck a big fat mandalorian cock please.

[Mandalore93]

No one is saying Bards can't swarm kite. But if you continue to run your swarms by others camps getting them killed, you will be held responsible. Seems pretty fair to me. Would you rather they ban swarm kiting instead of finding a middle ground?

I mentioned that Bards should be completely responsible for avoiding camps. And while yes, Bards should be aware of others when pulling that doesn't mean that they are omniscient players able to track every other player coming and going through the middle of a zone. Maybe all Bards should just have a macro that is "/ooc Look out for the huge fucking group of mobs, running through it could be detrimental." Because there will more than likely be somebody who runs through it, bard messes up, then person gets killed. While I don't have an issue with training being enforced, it seems that the whiners have gotten a GM to come down hard on one zone, on one class when I'm sure pull mishaps happen all the time throughout many zones.

To be honest I just view it as zone information. It's like going into Mistemoore and not expecting to see some trains, or going into TD and expecting not to see quad kiting. If you go to OT you should expect bard kiting. There are risks to playing in every zone.

And for this to take a higher priority than CSR in Veeshan's Peak just seems completely off kilter to me. But that's my own personal opinion.

Also, a bit off topic but could this issue also be a result of incorrect aggro mechanics? I would have to assume part of the mechanics don't work given that swarm charm kiting doesn't work here the way it should. (Last I checked)

[indiscriminate_hater]

Do please shut up. Is this thread about raiding? Or is this thread about swarm kiting in open leveling zones? Seriously, go suck a big fat mandalorian cock please.

the flame law of p99 forums: on a large enough time scale, all threads will converge to RnF content

[zanderklocke]

a big fat mandalorian cock.

Boba Fett's penis?

[Porz]

Bards swarm kiting on dial up is not classic.

[Apostle]

didnt read the thread but I assume TMO is at it again?

[skipdog]

People are complaining about GMs enforcing server rules on training others? Wow haha..