Project in town guards

[Nirgon]

In town guards appear to just be some base template of NPC in most cases aside from the very high HP (and now magic immune) town front guards.

However.

Those wandering in the cities are *way* too easy to kill.

Most notably their resists are out of line and their hps are much too low.

Whichever dev would like us to compile resources, I will gladly kill in town guards in "classic" town zones on live and post resist rate and how much damage I did to them.

If EQ Mac is preferred, I do not have a character there nor do I wish to install the "EQ Mac" PC hack but maybe others will be. Happy guard hunting, it is a time honored tradition.

[enr4ged]

Just curious how you think guards on live are the same as they were 13 years ago?
Same with EQMac... there's a lot of stuff on there that they don't have classic either.

[Nirgon]

They weren't easily rootable and nukable. And by easily I mean like 100% of the time pretty much.

[Nirgon]

Ramifications and impact:

Creates areas that are way too easy to level in, for way too much bonus experience (starting zone/town), and provide faction hits that are also way too easily attainable (hi SoulFire!)

Try leveling an enchanter in Neriak Commons, pacifying/charming/killing the guards and selling the 2x fine steel weapons they drop too. The dragoons are some bitches here, on live they were hard asses.

[Sundawg]

If your tests on EQlive show them to have more hps then they do here, I'll look further into this.

I say that because the vast majority of NPCs here do have accurate classic era hps. There have been a few exceptions though, and I try to fix those as soon as I become aware of them.

[nilbog]

Guard HP is set according to the seq spawnlog info from around the web mid Kunark(ish).

Perhaps their resistances, AC, attack speed, regen, or max hit are different.

As far as which dev to compile resources for, just do it here in the thread.

eqlive vs eqmac vs p99 would be a good test.

[Nirgon]

I know npcs in plane of fear, for example, are handled in some way here to be "more resistant". I'll gladly kill some live guards (in zones that at least appear to be the same) and post parses.

[Nirgon]

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20020223094421/http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=1123

Guard Fikus in Freeport should see invis for starters

Ledshin should also see invis

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20020124053217/http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=1084

All Fp guards:
Source: http://web.archive.org/web/20020124190217/http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=1100
"If you say "kill hollish tnoops" around any of the Freeport guards, they will jump you and smack you to death."

[Nirgon]

Guards being resistant (I'll just leave these as proof to support my parsing of resists this evening)

http://web.archive.org/web/20020223093713/http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=1108
"...Agrede - he rezists abowt 3 in 4 ov my Darkness and Feer spells. Stand an fite - save yer mana... ;)

...a smart Ogah Shadoh-Nite! ;)"

http://web.archive.org/web/20020124044046/http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=1022
"He has serious resistances and is buffed out the bjeezus"

[Nirgon]

I see we nailed troll guards..

Bump for Freeport in town guards/Neriak city guards (soul fire too easy to get, too easy to pacify etc).

[Potus]

Guards as they are on the server currently are classic. Except Ledshin, who should have never seen invis.

Nirgon wants to nerf guards for some reason. Please ignore him.

[Nirgon]

Ya I got prof doe

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1063765&postcount=9

http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=13675&dateline=1299278461

[Vile]

Nirgon for some reason still comes here and helps out... and people like this do everything in their power to troll him.. :confused:

[Scrubosaur]

Guards were the best exp back in the day. I remember on my bard having a full group in Neriak killing guards and on my necro soloing halfling guards. The negative side to the killing was being unable to use vendors, quests, and banks in the town (and usually nearby towns) of the guards that you were killing. The benefit was decent plat and good exp bonus.

[Potus]

Ya I got prof doe

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1063765&postcount=9

http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=13675&dateline=1299278461

That you keep on linking one or two cherrypicked noob comments to support your argument shows just how good you are at this whole "research" thing.

Here. I found one.

http://web.archive.org/web/20020905184652/http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=1198

Level 40 guards should be able to be killed by level 5 druids. Classic.

[Nirgon]

The town front guards were quite killable for a time but you had to use snare not root. Snare would hold whereas root would break like crazy, many spells are very hard to land on them too.

I killed the east commons/west commons guards also (these were pretty damn resistant until very blue also). But.. the guards inside the towns... very resistant and this was tested on eq mac. I did it on live and it worked exactly the same way I remembered there too not that I'd say live is the end all be all but it worked. Freeport on live is... wtf.

Point being there's 2 posts I dug for and found of people backing that statement.

Notice how I didn't link something obviously wrong like what you just did :).

Hey... I was right about the Grobb guards... if ya'll're keepin' score at home. Freeport/Neriak in town guards were absolutely no different.

[Potus]

Point being there's 2 posts I dug for and found of people backing that statement.

Notice how I didn't link something obviously wrong like what you just did :).


I found a post of a guy supporting that level 5 druids can kill level 40 guards.

Why are you ignoring my classic evidence?



Hey... I was right about the Grobb guards... if ya'll're keepin' score at home.

You did a real bang up job on Guard Ledshin, who according to Allakhazam, Everlore, and EQAtlas, and everyone on this forum, never saw invis.

[Buellen]

piping in.

Level 5 druid could kill guards i did it on live. you had to use broken pathing to do so. The guard would could not reach you on the walls of freeport. you could climb up using the tree by potion merchant and levitation.

this exploit was fixed before kunark or shortly after kunark.


PS Was horribly long kills got better at 14 when you got your first real dot.l

[Nirgon]

Well o shit.


Level 40 guards should be able to be killed by level 5 druids. Classic.

Confirmed.

I believe mobs are listed as see invis "no" by default on those pages. There were see invis guards in that militia house area. Further, the freeport militia wasn't some group of NPCs on par with solusek kobolds... they had very high resist, very high assist radius. Going on assist radius.. when someone pissed off the guards in that area it was never 1 or 2 guards standing over their corpse.. it was many.

Necro dots/taps obviously had notoriously better resist rates than .... oh say... root :P.

[Nirgon]

We hit the Grobb guards recently, can we get this pushed out to all guards inside towns?

IE: guards inside of Freeport / Neriak / Felwithe / Halas etc

Guards stationed at town fronts should stay immune.

[Potus]

Guards already buffed, go fight one.

Oh wait you don't play this game anymore and haven't for months.

[Nirgon]

Logs state otherwise, wrong again. I was in the hole recently helping someone finish their SK epic and buffed groups in KC.

Grobb guards were bumped, the rest need this treatment.

[Potus]

Seriously go fight a guard, they have higher resists and more HP than any npc their level. Their melee stats are very good, too, they parry and riposte a ton.

You'd know this if you did any research or even investigated shit. Instead you just post bad threads demanding insane nerfs for god knows why. It's kind of sad, actually.

[Nirgon]

I power leveled a bard (blue server) in Neriak by root and nuking them down with an epic manastone wizard. The bard mem blurred and finished. We gained way too much xp. I would be happy to demonstrate. You know town zones (ie: Freeport) have higher than average xp bonuses?

That is by no stretch of the imagination remotely close to classic.

My tests with the Felwithe guards on live (spare me... they are untouched) matched my memory of live. Root either never landed, broke instantly or broke within 2 ticks.

Just how it was, sorry you don't want that here.

Seriously go fight a guard, they have higher resists and more HP than any npc their level.

The Freeport guards I used to level on red were the weakest NPCs I fought for their level here. Root basically held full duration every time. That's your "sad" right there if we're shooting for classic.

[Potus]

The Freeport guards I used to level on red were the weakest NPCs I fought for their level here. Root basically held full duration every time. That's your "sad" right there if we're shooting for classic.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Guard_Mizraen
Level: 35
HP:2722

http://wiki.project1999.com/A_Bloodgill_Goblin
Level:35-39
HP:1306

Once again, you're full of shit and have nothing to back up your claims. It's embarrassing you keep wanting to nerf shit on a game you don't play and got banned from.

[Nirgon]

Wrong again, I never have been banned or suspended from P99.

I gave Telin access to my same live character :/.

I'm talking about resists where do hit points factor into how long an NPC is rooted or how well spells land?

The lvl 5 druid exploiting pathing blowing up in your face was a fun surprise. If you head to Grobb or Felwithe on live, more fun surprises await.

Classic research and contribution will continue from me until I get forum banned or I am asked to leave by Nilbog.

Take your mads to RNF, you can even bump the thread I made for you.

[Potus]

Your original post in this fucking thread, here:

In town guards appear to just be some base template of NPC in most cases aside from the very high HP (and now magic immune) town front guards.

However.

Those wandering in the cities are *way* too easy to kill.

Most notably their resists are out of line and their hps are much too low.


And then your last post, too:

The Freeport guards I used to level on red were the weakest NPCs I fought for their level here.

Not the weakest npcs, not by a long shot. You have no clue what you're talking about. That you got Troll guards nerfed is sad, the devs should be onto your shit by now.

Another shit thread where your only evidence is "I remember it being different!"

[Nirgon]

Go try the Grobb/Felwithe guards on live with a lvl 52-55 char.

You have no clue what you're talking about. That you got Troll guards nerfed is sad, the devs should be onto your shit by now.

Or maybe I'm right and they're listening to me? Maybe they're on to YOUR shit ;).

Rest my case on that.

[Potus]

Jesus christ this guy is telling people go to on live for gameplay balance.

Sigh.

[Nirgon]

Well it matches what people say in 2000 era posts :) (that aren't made up) and my recollection and testing done on EQMac, SHOCKINGLY enough :).

Really, take your problems up with Nilbog. If he bans me I won't come back.

[Potus]

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/19991208.html

This was the patch that guards were buffed in. And P99 launched with these buffed guards. You really have nothing to stand on except your memory.

Subsequently the Newbie Guards were buffed and changes were made to guard timers:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000512.html

P99 launched with this respawn timer as well.

Again, unless you post actual evidence, this thread has no merit and you should close it.

[Nirgon]

actual evidence





http://web.archive.org/web/200202230....shtml?id=1108
"...Agrede - he rezists abowt 3 in 4 ov my Darkness and Feer spells. Stand an fite - save yer mana...

...a smart Ogah Shadoh-Nite! "

Evidence #2 (thread that got at least Grobb changed) (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1246796&postcount=1)


This matches my recollection, the untouched guards on live and the untouched guards on EQ Mac.

Grobb is done but other town guards need work.


Your to do list:
-- Send your complaints to Nilbog instead of shitting up bug threads.
-- I've killed these guards for my own benefit at times but I put classic EQ before my own personal interests, learn to do the same.
-- Check with the staff if I have ever been banned or suspended from either server.
-- Check with Telin if my live account is banned.
-- Find out you are wrong.
-- Direct your frustrations here (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147629&highlight=Potus).

[Potus]

Two comments on one guard. Wow. That's it?

Second post has 1 comment out of 7 complaining about resists, and the guy is level 42 fighting a level 40 guard. That's why he's resisting.

That's not evidence. That's laughable as fuck. You can find people complaining about any npc resisting if you look hard enough.

[Nirgon]

-- Direct your frustrations here (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147629&highlight=Potus).


I don't see any evidence on how great of xp these in town guards are nor do I see people saying they xped on them.... well anywhere :).

But I did find what I posted after much searching...

and it matches everything we are able to check (hey I did testing and parsing too!)...


and my claim.

I notice you aren't after the staff for making these changes. Maybe you should try that instead? 8)

If you hate me for posting this stuff I can't imagine how you feel about them for making classic changes. I personally like it!

(All this over one xp death btw lol)

[Potus]

I have no idea what you're even talking about now.

[Nirgon]

You don't need to just let the big boys work

[Potus]

That sounds great. Good luck in your attempt to get every town's guards nerfed based off two posts. I hope it works out for you :)

[Nirgon]

Thanks. Would love me some classic guards with big assist ranges (hi2u pvp server)/resists :).

[Nirgon]

Anyone else remember going into Neriak/Halas/Grobb and people killing the guards during the classic through Velious era every time on their way to the bank? I don't.

Not to mention if this was a way to xp, given how overcamped things were... you'd think there'd be people in there 24-7 forming groups (if they were as tough as they were here). It just wasn't the case, for the reasons I've listed above.

[Potus]

Yup, they were. People were hesitant to ruin faction, but they were camped.

[Nirgon]

Played on 3 live servers never once when I went to Neriak/Halas were there guard groups inside the towns (and people would camp just about ANYTHING for xp because of how over camped things were... I solo camped Cyndreela at the fear portal for Christ sake lol).

Nor can I find any comments about the guards inside Neriak/Halas where people are saying "good xp" or "we kill these" etc (because only the people in your head did lol.). We can check the eqmac forums too I think? I don't see anything about any of that, maybe you can find something about how often people kill the guards inside towns from the wayback machine... the only ones I found said "way too resistant".

[Scrubosaur]

Here is a site detailing killing guards...

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/whitewind/gtxt/guides/tricks.htm

I think it really was just the fact that people were scared to screw up their faction. This was the first BIG (imo) MMO and people didn't get all the concepts, or know all the shortcuts, or knew the long term effects of their decisions. If people understood ZEM and the effects on killing guards in a town there was no point in having faction with I am sure more people would have been killing guards.

[Zuranthium]

Guards were constantly camped EVERYWHERE until the May 12th 2000 patch. I killed Ogre guards all the time and Necromancers were notorious for soloing the good-aligned guards. After the patch people still camped the guards that hadn't been mega-buffed, although not as frequently because their respawn rate had been increased and people now had Kunark to go play.

I believe at a later date, not during classic era, guards were buffed yet again.

[Potus]

Troll guards. Also Dwarf and High Elf guards mentioned. (http://web.archive.org/web/20021221074026/http://necro.eqclasses.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11940)

Neriak Wizzies. (http://web.archive.org/web/20021221071937/http://necro.eqclasses.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7218&whichpage=3) That usually is the guards as well since they path into each other.
Here is another Neriak Guards. (http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=3700.0)

Oggok guards guide. (http://web.archive.org/web/20011224202933/http://eqdb.allakhazam.com/strategy/zones.html?zstrat=9)

Here is a site detailing killing guards...

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/whitewind/gtxt/guides/tricks.htm

I think it really was just the fact that people were scared to screw up their faction. This was the first BIG (imo) MMO and people didn't get all the concepts, or know all the shortcuts, or knew the long term effects of their decisions. If people understood ZEM and the effects on killing guards in a town there was no point in having faction with I am sure more people would have been killing guards.

Yup, that is correct. You'll notice that a lot of searches turn up Necro hunting guides, that's because Necros already had hosed faction and didn't care about losing faction to places they were already KOS at.

Verant at the time kept telling people that faction was important because of quests, little did they know how fucking worthless faction was.

Guards were constantly camped EVERYWHERE until the May 12th 2000 patch. I killed Ogre guards all the time and Necromancers were notorious for soloing the good-aligned guards. After the patch people still camped the guards that hadn't been mega-buffed, although not as frequently because their respawn rate had been increased and people now had Kunark to go play.

I believe at a later date, not during classic era, guards were buffed yet again.

Spawn rates were messed with during the 2000 patch, but only the newbie guards at city entrances were megabuffed. The rest of the guards were left alone, that's why people moved inside to hunt places like Grobb/Oggok/Felwithe/Neriak/Kaladim/Freeport/Paineel/Erudin. Once Kunark/Velious came out, a lot of blue servers weren't so crowded so yeah guard killing decreased even though it was fantastic loot exp. To my knowledge there was never another patch, because there are Necro guides from 2000-2008 telling people to go hunt guards for loot/exp.

Being a Necromancer was awesome. Fuck faction, be KOS everywhere!

[Scrubosaur]

There was a ton of stuff that wasn't put "out on the web" about EQ for those first few years. People were selling shit for RL money and wanted to keep stuff a secret. I don't remember people selling rogue / cleric epic MQ's back in the day or people running around with clicky Complete healing items. But now that we know about those things and how they work it's rampant.

[Zuranthium]

Oggok guards guide. (http://web.archive.org/web/20011224202933/http://eqdb.allakhazam.com/strategy/zones.html?zstrat=9)

Oh look, there I am talking about Ogre guards in 2001. :)

To my knowledge there was never another patch, because there are Necro guides from 2000-2008 telling people to go hunt guards for loot/exp

Well, it seems the people who logged onto Live recently have said the city guards are harder. So they must have been further buffed at some point. It definitely wasn't classic era, though.

[Potus]

Oh look, there I am talking about Ogre guards in 2001. :)



Well, it seems the people who logged onto Live recently have said the city guards are harder. So they must have been further buffed at some point. It definitely wasn't classic era, though.

Oh interesting, I stopped playing when PoP came out, then came back briefly, quit for good when they did stupid crap like revamped Freeport.

New Freeport is so fucking bad. So bad.

[Zuranthium]

BTW, did Nirgon's wrongful complaining here actually cause the Troll guards to get buffed more than they should be? Hopefully that is reversed if it was done because of this thread.

[Potus]

BTW, did Nirgon's wrongful complaining here actually cause the Troll guards to get buffed more than they should be? Hopefully that is reversed if it was done because of this thread.

Yup!

It's not the first non-classic guard buff he's got pushed through.

[Zuranthium]

Guard camping (aside from the ones at the gates of newbie areas) was seriously good for the game. It made high level players and low level players interact and it made the world feel more alive.

In 2011 when I was leveling my Enchanter on Steamfont guards/NPC's here on p99, they felt exactly as they should be - the two guards at the city gate and the one guard a bit up the path were mega-buffed, but the two guards on the other side of the mountain were killable. I would constantly talk with the low level players in the zone when I was medding and they could earn money by running over to me and taking all of my copper/silver/gold to the bank for plat, which they would get to keep some of.

That kind of stuff is exactly the essence of classic EQ.

[Potus]

I agree. Most recently I've given out a ton of free FS weapons and platinum while camping guards in Oggok. There's a lot of new players on red and they appreciate it. I've bought their bonechips, too.

The resists are classic and so are the HP/damage table. I'm not sure why Nirgon makes these threads, really.

[Nirgon]

I went through Neriak multiple times per day and there were never groups of people camping guards. Ever. On any server.

Why would there be lists to get into solb/guk groups if people could just camp the guards for xp? Sure there's items that drop in those zones but would people rather have just done nothing?

I have 2 people in here disagreeing with me. One thinks necros were terrible in pvp, the other thinks wizards are useless in pve. Another thinks he knows more about a class in pvp than someone who won a live botb for his server, (I think) 2nd place overall and the one here.

The guide mentions Reskin/Tolus in EC, I killed them too on live and think they are fine here. I also killed the 2 guards in West Commons on live along with the druids there and in EC. These guards are not inside of a town, there is no point bringing them up. In fact if those guards incorrectly had their resists scaled way up, I would have a thread saying "hey you shouldn't have changed these".

Is Butcher Block a town? Am I suggesting those be changed? No. I have no idea why you'd try to support your argument with guards OUTSIDE of towns. Please go through this thread and find where I ask for resist changes be made to Guard Reskin/Tolus or the Butcher Block guards, I know people xp'd off of those.

The guide mentioning Neriak guards is suggesting a pet class kill them with new pets.


With the new 54 pet and kei


from your source. Sorry but that to me has nothing to do with root holding on them. Am I debating an epic pet or otherwise super strong pet should be able to kill them? No. But you will use someone with some PoP+ era pet killing them to some how twist the argument that they shouldn't have high magic resists.

The guards I listed in Freeport did see invis, before we got to the point where you stalked my threads over a single xp loss I decided to be nice and say yes that sometimes npcs could spawn without see invis (you seemed upset). However, I can't think of a single NPC that only SOMETIMES spawned with see invis inside of a town (in dungeons sure).

I've gone through the same kind of shit like this with resist poison stacking with Talisman of Shadoo and being able to charm Sirran in sky with dictate. It's obvious what people like you are trying to do here.

I agree. Most recently I've given out a ton of free FS weapons and platinum while camping guards in Oggok.

Selfish interests. You don't want your easy xp taken away, I get it. I have no problem with you guys casting a couple snares until one lands and stays for its duration. I do have a problem with guards basically never resisting a root and it holding for its entire duration on them. For this same reason when people could kill town front guards they would kite it with snare, never root and rot.

[Potus]

You asked for proof that people hunted these guards. We posted proof, and all you have are personal insults.

"Shits classic" bro. Close your thread.

[Nirgon]

Where does it say you can keep them rooted? I see that you can plow them with some PoP+ era pet but nothing about root holding.

Again a guy who thinks necros sucked in classic pvp (you still think this, a complete laughing stock to the RZ veterans here) and a guy who thinks wizards are useless in PvE (do you raid? can you quad kite by yourself?).

I know town front guards would have snare casted several times on them before it stuck then they were kited down (before town front guard buff patch). Here's something else you might be able to put together, snare never broke on damage and always held full duration until dispelled, given it may take a couple casts on a high resist target. You can see in my live parses that occasionally root would land on them but almost immediately break. I would expect snares to land on them with the same resist rate but to last their full duration. But, they were *never* *ever* able to be kept rooted. Killed? Yes. Permanently rooted without fear of it breaking? Not even close.

You are desperately trying to link things like butcher block guards that I agree should be killable here or east commons guards.

I like the "non classic" see invis comment when someone blatantly says they saw invis. Why else would they say he did? Oh, he did.

Stay clueless!

[Potus]

Those links say in-town guards, the EQNecro link mentions farming both Kaladim guards in Kaladim and Troll guards in Grobb.

Also sweet personal attacks. Do you have *any* classic-era evidence at all to support your claims?

[Zuranthium]

I went through Neriak multiple times per day and there were never groups of people camping guards. Ever. On any server.

You played simultaneously on every server?

It's pretty clear from the great majority of your posts that you didn't actually play early classic EQ. You are clueless.

[Zuranthium]

By the way, Nirgon is now trying to harass me via PM here on the forums. I guess when you have no valid arguments, you just resort to getting angry. Also:

a guy who thinks wizards are useless in PvE (do you raid? can you quad kite by yourself?).

Stop taking things about of context you freaking strawman. Wizards are absolutely one of the worst classes in PvE for the typical group setup. The fact that you continue to say otherwise (or just ignore it and point at how they are good for killing Dragons/Gods or good at quad-kiting) shows how blind you are. We had MULTIPLE Wizards in our guild quit the game during Kunark era because they were upset at how relatively useless they were.

You see, in actual CLASSIC Everquest, people didn't roll Wizard to quad-kite (do you even realize how long it could take a Wizard to get to that level to begin with?) and very few people were actually getting to constantly kill a Dragon/God. Server populations were much higher, making camps more crowded. It was very difficult for Wizards to get into groups, as their lack of effectiveness became more and more understood. The thing that did actually make playing Wizard fun at times, getting to quickly blast things down with magic, even stopped being useful for the higher level areas.

Getting back to the topic at hand - the FACTUAL game updates state that guards inside cities were not buffed. The only thing that was changed was their spawn time. WHY on earth are you arguing with the actual classic EQ patch updates???

[Nirgon]

Do you have *any* classic-era evidence at all to support your claims?

Yes and I just bumped that Sergeant Slate thread with more evidence too.

In town guards were always like this. Imagine my lack of surprise when they were like this on both live and eqmac. Town front guards did change though in terms of resists (extremely), but even they were like the in town guards before the immunity to spells change.. it was just easier to pull them away from the town and fight them in the open where the other guards (with huge assist radius) would jump in along with the confined area inside the town. You never rooted those guards, they had to be snared and it took quite a few attempts to get the snare to land.

I played a lot of classic EQ and shared characters on the Povar and Tunare servers with people. You can check the link in my sig for proof of my history on Rallos Zek during.... 1999. Oh and I was in PK guilds for much of my leveling career. We leveled off things like the treants in south karana, druid npcs and guards all the time but you could never just easily/permanently root in the town guards. I would have killed those (like the Halas guards which are in an obscure enough place) instead of killing Cyndreela in front of the fear portal.

I'd prefer to take the bull shit to PMs/RNF, yes but you two have to try and clog these threads up to prevent the devs from paying attention to them and implementing the changes.

[Zuranthium]

WHY on earth are you arguing with the actual classic EQ patch updates???

[Nirgon]

To that end, we have buffed up these newbie-protecting guards, made them immune to magic,


Those newbie guards referred to in the patch notes from 5/12/2000 are the ones in front of towns like the bashers in front of Grobb or the line of guards along the Freeport gates. I posted that same patch note (I do know which guards were changed by that patch) in another thread that got it changed here when I saw people using Cabilis town front guards used to kill the Tangrin in Field of Bone.



Not the ones that patrolled inside the towns. So you have no idea what that patch note relates to and are wrong. That patch did nothing to change anything about the in town guards.

People that played on live (hi!) can tell you this.

In fact, I KNOW the ones in town shouldn't be immune, just extremely resistant.. matching the live parses.

Edit: oh hey look they even say the guards INSIDE THE TOWNS are unchanged in terms of strength/resists


In addition, though we have left the guards inside cities as-is from the perspective of power


This thread is becoming more about educating you than defending my point.

Why do you link patch notes when you don't know what it applies to? :(

[Zuranthium]

You are yet again talking about something COMPLETELY different and drawing an incorrect correlation.

The patch note specifically talks about how people were camping guards INSIDE cities. WHY on earth do you think they raised the respawn timer of the guards inside cities and stated "we feel these mobs are re-spawning too quickly in comparison to equivalent level dungeon mobs"? It's because they were being camped! Get a clue!

Yet, this whole time, you are saying "there were never groups of people camping guards. Ever. On any server." You are blatantly wrong. What do you not understand?

In this very thread there is a link of ME, and others, in 2000 talking about killing city guards! How is it, with the overwhelming amount of posts out there with people talking about killing guards in 1999 and 2000, that you can say we actually didn't? It is very specifically stated that city guards are easier than a hill giant - the same damage but less health.

HERE'S how it went down, since you don't know - in 1999 guards were just a weak equivalent level mob with nothing special about them at all (aside from perhaps a couple big ones). In late 1999 they were somewhat buffed, but still very killable and continued to be constantly camped. In 2000 the newbie area guards were buffed, so that people would stop killing them altogether, and the guards inside cities had their spawn times increased so that they were balanced better in comparison to camping more dangerous areas. Guard killing at this point became much less frequent in cities NOT because the guards were particularly difficult to kill, but because people were no longer getting as much reward AND because more and more people were purchasing the Kunark expansion.

The patch note even specifically states they buffed up only the newbie guards aside from just making them magic immune. The city guards aren't just newbie guards with the same stats aside from magic immunity. Why are you talking about "knowing" that city guards aren't magic immune in the first place? Of course they aren't! Everyone knows that. You're throwing out shit information as if it actually means something. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Scrubosaur]

Why would there be lists to get into solb/guk groups if people could just camp the guards for xp? Sure there's items that drop in those zones but would people rather have just done nothing?

Back then the motto wasn't "grind to 50 (or 60) as fast as possible!" it was "PHAT LEWTS". Everyone waited for the camps for a chance to get exp and gear. And I don't see how anyone could say guard killing wasn't part of early EQ due to the fact that Freeport was all about guard killing. You kill one faction or the other depending on what quests you wanted to do and what part of the city you wanted to travel freely in.

[Nirgon]

They weren't unkillable or how else would people do the soulfire. That's not my point.

My point is the tests I did on live actually matched exactly how I remember the guards in the towns during classic-Velious (even Luclin). Root barely landed and broke when it did.

The people I saw killing guards on live had to kite them and try to stick snares until they landed (just like how they killed the town front guards before those became immune).

It's up to the devs (I presume the Dawg) to apply the change they did to Grobb to the other zones.

I'm actually done with this turning of the bugs section into a war zone and will try to extend the let's be men about it branch to offended parties to prevent this being RNF. I stand by my claims about their resists.

[Zuranthium]

People would charm guards and make them fight each other. Their resists couldn't have been that high.

[Nirgon]

Ya considering charm was completely unreliable on live compared to what people do here you are wrong again.

[SamwiseRed]

about charm, altho off topic.

on live kunark-velious i dont remember enchanters ever charming in groups. sadly we dont know if this was because charm was less reliable or players were just bad. for real tho chanter is so damn OP its ridiculous on p99.

[Nirgon]

Charm effectiveness here is a result of exactly what we're seeing in this thread, Sam. Except it will be defended by even more because they'd rather have ezmode than classic EQ.

[Zuranthium]

Ya considering charm was completely unreliable on live compared to what people do here you are wrong again.

I'm not wrong at all. You need to stop posting about something you don't have experience with. Bards and Enchanters would VERY commonly solo by charming a guard and throwing it into a nearby guard, then finishing them off when they got low. Charming in this situation made it not very difficult to manage a break, as opposed to continuously trying to charm something and keep it around like a Mage pet.

It's clear you didn't play pre-expansion EQ. Your stance on this issue is obviously born from the fact that you started playing later and people had already moved on from commonly killing city guards. If you had actually started earlier then you would be aware of how frequent it was.

http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-12506.html

"High level folks would camp Guard Jendl in West Freeport or the Freeport Militia in other spots and outside the gates of Freeport as well."

"Felwithe guards? Those were sometimes a popular spot for necros to own."

"I liked squishing Felwithe guards myself."

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/49919031-post4.html

"I cant even estimate how many hours I spent on that game.... damn near ruined my first college attempt.... would skip school to camp gnome guards"

http://slickdeals.net/forums/showpost.php?p=47365134&postcount=34

"Ahh, memories of killing Guards with my Mage pet in Freeport"

http://www.micsaund.com/2006/01/26/the-life-and-business-of-an-everquest-gold-farmer/

"I started selling about 7 years ago. I started on my home server, amongst a few other sellers. At the time EQ was EQ, no expansions, fairly new, and you could sell 1,000 platinum for $500. I got into selling because of a GM at the time who I spoke to on occasion who was selling platinum and other items from places like mistmoore, guk, and solusek b. This was at a time a GM was an unpaid volunteer player, and the kinks hadn't been worked out as far as the EULA which forbid the buying and selling of intellectual property.

I killed guards in everfrost and sold the weapons to vendors and then bought items from players, or sold the platinum. That's the entirety of what I did to make that income."

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-48402.html

"Hunt guards/giants/lguk/SolB in groups." (Notice how guards are grouped together with those other spots? It was very common!!)

http://www.eqclassic.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2313

"OK, I really enjoyed camping guards. Neriak 3rd Gate: all of the wandering guards near the floating eye."

"also remember hitting 50 off guards in freeport, there were always groups there."

"Was kos in W/E FP for killing Reskin/Tolus and then Colin/Valon. I did it for the exp. Got tired of lfg all the time."

---

Hahaha, also look at what Allakazam's Magical Realm says on May 11th 2000 as the "thought of the day":

Wouldn't it be nice to see one of the guards get promoted or something? "Where's Guard Valon?" "He's now Sergeant Valon, patrolling the city gate. And he's buffed up and looking for revenge on those people who have been kicking his butt all these years."

http://web.archive.org/web/20000511085510/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/

[Nirgon]

Guard Valon isn't in a town (west commons).

Everfrost isn't Halas.

Keep swingin.

What does killing something with a mage pet have to do with magic resistance?

How is April 1999 "later"? I think that's pre-expac EQ :). Maybe not you you but... if you think West Commons is a town..

Yikes.

[Zuranthium]

Stop ignoring all of the information and trying to cherry-pick and twist statements into something that superficially make you sound relevant. People talked about killing guards in towns and furthermore the guards in towns weren't even more difficult as compared to other guards, unless they were higher level. That's why the patch note specifically stated they weren't buffing up in-town guards.

There's no way you started playing EQ in April 1999 if you're making statements so ridiculous as "nobody killed city guards. Ever. On any server" and "Why would there be lists to get into solb/guk groups if people could just camp the guards for xp?" You are seriously clueless. FYI, there were waiting lists for the guards too!!! EVERY single person disagrees with you. That's why there are hundreds of posts out there talking about camping city guards. You are wrong and need to stop distorting history.

---

As for Charm in general, it became much more popular in the later Velious era after someone posted an extensive "Charming guide" on the official Everquest forums. This guide talked about being able to charm a very powerful Velious guard and have it run around and destroy everything in the area until it was nearly dead (it was able to plow through a ton of mobs before it got to that point), at which point you finish it off and wait for a re-spawn. The enchanter would have SoW potions to ensure safety, something that didn't exist during the first year of the game.

Until that point very few people actually did such a thing. Enchanters in general were probably the least played class in the game during the first 6 months of release. As people learned how to play them more and more, and especially because of how much more "necessary" they became in Kunark, their popularity continued to grow.

[Potus]

about charm, altho off topic.

on live kunark-velious i dont remember enchanters ever charming in groups. sadly we dont know if this was because charm was less reliable or players were just bad. for real tho chanter is so damn OP its ridiculous on p99.

Enchanters charmed a lot, I remember morons on Vallon Zek attacking their charmed pets by mistake. It was infuriating, you'd have to spam the group to tell them to lay off your froglok.

[pasi]

http://www.graffe.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5398.html?

Not sure if this was posted yet, but it's Graffe Circa 2001-2002. It's a thread about how wizards leveled 1-60. You'll note there are a lot of mentions of people killing in towns and guards outside of towns.

Personally, I remember casters kiting snared NPCs around the the arena in freeport. East Freeport was also used very often both in the mid-levels and even to 60. There was the instant spawn level 50 guard in the pit that was perma camped by necros. Additionally, Bucherblock Dwarves were a thing to 50 as were Feerott Bouncers (crude steins were coming from somewhere). Neriak was used a ton from 55-60, but it was mostly the 2 wizard and necro NPCs. There are accounts of people killing Neriak guards in the above link though.

As far as charm goes, the data we have to compare it to - Xornn's guide - suggests that charm durations are shorter than live even when we compare a charisma capped P99er to a mid-100s charisma Live-er. Obviously no one was doing what myself, svenn, loraen, or tecmos were doing back then, but that has more to do with knowledge of the game mechanics and the fact that close to no one was 60 in Kunark.

[Nirgon]

They had VERY high magic resist INSIDE OF TOWNS. Period.

East commons is not a town.

West Commons is not a town.

Nektulos Forest is not a town.

Butcherblock Mountains is not a town.

Feerott is not a town.

Does the thread say they should be unkillable? No. It says they should have very high resists. A post with evidence linked shows a guy saying 75% of magic spells he casted on them were resisted.

[Zuranthium]

Freeport is a town. Neriak is a town. Oggok is a town. Grobb is a town. Kaladim is a town. Felwithe is a town. Akanon is a town. Rivervale is a town. There are posts all over of casters in classic saying they were able to solo there without too much difficulty.

A post with evidence linked shows a guy saying 75% of magic spells he casted on them were resisted.

On ONE specific guard. He explicitly says that ONE guard had higher magic resist than others. It does NOT mean every guard across all cities were like that. Furthermore, that post simply could have been someone who was level 36 or 37 and was normally killing guards in the low 30's, rather than level 35. Your reasoning is absolute trash.

The only other evidence you linked was a level 42 person trying to kill a level 40 paladin guard. Fail.

[Zuranthium]

Level 35 guard in West Freeport killed by a Druid who didn't have any trouble at all constantly rooting him during Velious era:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020124111907/http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=1105

[pasi]

That post does contain numerous mentions of hunting in cities in addition to the outdoor zones adjacent to cities.

Perhaps a better post to link would be the suggested solo spots from Graffe’s Library. These are color coded for difficulty. To your credit, one of the suggested guard spots is listed as a high difficulty, low reward spot. Why that is could be open to interpretation as this is a single person's guide written a few expansions later.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040429201504/http://www.graffe.com/library.php?id=68

Anyhow, I'm not saying that city guards were not more resistant than equivalent NPCs of their level. What I am arguing is that guards in Oggok, Freeport, and Neriak were frequently hunted for experience by solo wizards. These wizards likely relied on landing root or snare seeing as these places have somewhat close quarters. The hunted NPCs may have been more resistant - but they were still reliably hunted as blue cons. Spells landed reliably enough that these spots were popular hunting spots. That's all.

LVL 40-45 (these are all outdoor, but I'm including them for completeness sake).
Butcherblock -dorfs
Rathe Mountains - Horribly boring but you can can solo the two troll guards for wonderful xp.
Steamfront- solo gnome guards, watchman Halv

LVL 45-50
East Freeport - Solo/Duo Guards
Oggok- orge guards

LVL 58-60
Neriak- Solo doing Ogres/Trolls

[Nirgon]

I don't think they should be "impossible" to kill like the buffed town front guards by any means.

They need to have their magic resists greatly improved. That's all I'm asking be done because they were like this on live.

I can barely think of 1 time a root was resisted when I xped on Freeport guards on red and the same on Soulfire runs on blue.

I've outlined how people killed these guards before with trying a snare until it stuck then killing them.

Botch (druid on RZ) would do 2 troll guards at a time and only used his druid dot. He told me at the time he'd go OOM trying to nuke them down. This was before the fear/charm changes in pvp and buff to town front guards.

[Zuranthium]

They need to have their magic resists greatly improved. That's all I'm asking be done because they were like this on live.

NO. THEY. WEREN'T. There is countless evidence against your idiotic claim.

There are many guards inside cities that are higher than the typical level (35) guard. The confusion you are having is because of that mostly likely.

Botch (druid on RZ) would do 2 troll guards at a time and only used his druid dot. He told me at the time he'd go OOM trying to nuke them down.

NO SHIT a Druid a would go OOM trying to nuke down guards!! Of course a Druid is going to DoT instead. You continue to make hilariously irrelevant statements as if they mean anything at all.

Not to mention, how do you think the Druid was constantly DoTing? HE WAS ROOT ROTTING. BECAUSE ROOT WASN'T MEGA RESISTED AS YOU STUPIDLY CLAIM.

[Nirgon]

No, he was snare kiting them not root rotting them. Root would just break constantly if you tried that and waste mana. My tests on the live guards in unchanged zones matched my claim. I'm sure Sundawg tested it a bit in Grobb on EQ Mac also.

I'm not saying they should be unkillable or be like the current patched town front guards at all. I'm just saying they should be a lot more resistant.

I can go in Freeport right now and keep one rooted very easily, basically full duration every time. That is why I made this thread.

Palemoon in another thread noticed their aggro and assist ranges are a bit too low also. I agree, that's a lot of mobs here but most notably these stand out.

[Zuranthium]

No, he was snare kiting them not root rotting them.

No he wasn't. DoT's did 33% less damage against kiting foes.

There is actual valid proof posted in this thread that people were camping guards for exp and using root without getting resisted much. You have no proof and furthermore you didn't even play (with any amount of awareness anyway) during original era EQ.

[koros]

Wrong about this also Nirgon. This is 5/10/2000. I killed guards in freeport on many many characters on live.

This is from

From the patch:
"Though we do not have a problem with players choosing to hunt guards,
the newbie guards themselves, specifically the ones at the gates of
cities and in the vicinity of newbie zones, need to remain alive under
most circumstances. To that end, we have buffed up these
newbie-protecting guards, made them immune to magic, and given them
some pretty good healing properties, in order to make them less
attractive to people hunting them.

In addition, though we have left the guards inside cities as-is from
the perspective of power, we've also found a problem with the respawn
rate. Previously they were typically on a six-minute timer, making
them spawn much faster than an equivalent NPC would in a dungeon. We
have normalized the respawn time of guards inside cities to bring them
in line with dungeon NPCs"

[MilanderTruewield]

Guards inside of Freeport drop quest items that can be turned in to an NPC in the N FP Paladin guild for exp and faction. The helms. I remember in 2001 duoing with a 45 Paladin, AS A PALADIN MYSELF (therefor no REAL heals, no slows, no debuffs.. just slow as hell DPS and stuns. With some weak heals) and we killed guards in W FP all the time. The way they are now is classic.

[Nirgon]

I didn't they say they should be unkillable but they don't resist a damn thing here. That is wrong. Their resists need to be higher. They never changed at any point in any patch either, they were always this way with high resists.

No he wasn't. DoT's did 33% less damage against kiting foes.


This was before that change to dot effectiveness kiting. I wish I could find Botch from RZ to come in here like I did Zyrino for the necro healing recourse.

I'm not sure where you guys are getting that the ones inside the town should match the ones that are buffed at the gates. That's not what I want at all and haven't said that anywhere in here.

And I do play here... and do good deeds in game :P. At least the Grobb guards should be correct right now (haven't checked em yet just remembered).

I just killed a few guards in Freeport here on red, they didn't even resist ONE spell. The post I linked as evidence stating resisting 3 out of 4 darknesses doesn't say they are unkillable either, it just says save your mana and fight away to kill them.

Give me a break :P. I understand solo'ing in dungeons or Kunark instead is more challenging but its not that bad. Yeah... the guards that don't resist ANYTHING I cast on them are so classic.

[Zilker]

Guards always had higher resists than the average npc in classic

[BlkCamel]

You played simultaneously on every server?

It's pretty clear from the great majority of your posts that you didn't actually play early classic EQ. You are clueless.

Tunare 99 Confirm killing guards classic. BBM Dock, Kelethin, Freeport Dock, Oggok inside and out, Grobb inside, Neriak inside and out, Halas inside and out, Erudin inside main temple. The Patch Verrant put through mega buffing town gatekeepers was because of newbs complaining they could never get help because the guards were always camped.

Sooooooo many people leveled off guards it is not even funny. I agree that Nirgon did not play classic timeline and if he did he would know this. He also would never consider using live as testing knowing how many changes have gone through.

And I can't emphasize this enough,

Wrong about this also Nirgon. This is 5/10/2000. I killed guards in freeport on many many characters on live.

This is from

From the patch:
"Though we do not have a problem with players choosing to hunt guards,
the newbie guards themselves, specifically the ones at the gates of
cities and in the vicinity of newbie zones, need to remain alive under
most circumstances. To that end, we have buffed up these
newbie-protecting guards, made them immune to magic, and given them
some pretty good healing properties, in order to make them less
attractive to people hunting them.

In addition, though we have left the guards inside cities as-is from
the perspective of power, we've also found a problem with the respawn
rate. Previously they were typically on a six-minute timer, making
them spawn much faster than an equivalent NPC would in a dungeon. We
have normalized the respawn time of guards inside cities to bring them
in line with dungeon NPCs"

Wrong about this also Nirgon. This is 5/10/2000. I killed guards in freeport on many many characters on live.

This is from

From the patch:
"Though we do not have a problem with players choosing to hunt guards,
the newbie guards themselves, specifically the ones at the gates of
cities and in the vicinity of newbie zones, need to remain alive under
most circumstances. To that end, we have buffed up these
newbie-protecting guards, made them immune to magic, and given them
some pretty good healing properties, in order to make them less
attractive to people hunting them.

In addition, though we have left the guards inside cities as-is from
the perspective of power, we've also found a problem with the respawn
rate. Previously they were typically on a six-minute timer, making
them spawn much faster than an equivalent NPC would in a dungeon. We
have normalized the respawn time of guards inside cities to bring them
in line with dungeon NPCs"

Wrong about this also Nirgon. This is 5/10/2000. I killed guards in freeport on many many characters on live.

This is from

From the patch:
"Though we do not have a problem with players choosing to hunt guards,
the newbie guards themselves, specifically the ones at the gates of
cities and in the vicinity of newbie zones, need to remain alive under
most circumstances. To that end, we have buffed up these
newbie-protecting guards, made them immune to magic, and given them
some pretty good healing properties, in order to make them less
attractive to people hunting them.

In addition, though we have left the guards inside cities as-is from
the perspective of power, we've also found a problem with the respawn
rate. Previously they were typically on a six-minute timer, making
them spawn much faster than an equivalent NPC would in a dungeon. We
have normalized the respawn time of guards inside cities to bring them
in line with dungeon NPCs"


*** I don't mean to call out Nirgon's Classic-ness, but if he was classic timeline then he is grossly mistaken on his recollection of events, there is a reason there is a statute of limitations of 7 years. Memories just degrade over time, what you can't ignore is documented proof, patch notes, guides on the very things you say didn't exist. In-side town guards are easy xp and preferable due to FS and coin drops and no running around as towns are full of them. You just need to accept this. Also if you think charm resist, or length of charm has a problem you need to make a new report with documentation supporting your argument. Just pork-barreling it on here is dishonest at best and negligent at worse.

[Nirgon]

Where am I asking for these guards to be unkillable in the towns? Are you people on drugs?

I saw this before in the threads about people saying they absolutely used dictate on Sirran in sky.
.

And I have to have a link in my sig to defend you goons from making further outrageous claims that I didn't play during the classic era.

Shame on the lot of you.

At least one of the devs here was able to check Grobb out on EQ Mac and see that I was right :). Hopefully guards get proper aggro and assist radius mechanics here too.


I completely expect outrage when guards people level on that resist absolutely nothing get changes.

Keep thinking I think they should be like the changed town front guards. You're making yourselves look stupid and insisting I'm saying something that I'm not.

I'm looking at you post above me. You are very proudly brandishing your poor reading comprehension. You're special.
Guards always had higher resists than the average npc in classic

Matches what was found in my evidence post and tested on EQ Mac by a dev here. I hope this resist bump that was VERIFIED is pushed out to the rest of the in town guards here. What's the statute of limitations on something they were able to test within the last year that I told them would be there. I can imagine the total shock when root after toot was resisted in Grobb just like my live server tests.

Wait till we have the talk about nerfing channeling here. I'm not going anywhere.

[Nirgon]

Guards inside of Freeport drop quest items that can be turned in to an NPC in the N FP Paladin guild for exp and faction. The helms. I remember in 2001 duoing with a 45 Paladin, AS A PALADIN MYSELF (therefor no REAL heals, no slows, no debuffs.. just slow as hell DPS and stuns. With some weak heals) and we killed guards in W FP all the time. The way they are now is classic.



This post has nothing to do with their magic resists. Reread my original post and my parses in Felwithe and Grobb from live. These zones did not get revamped like Freeport.

By the way you guys do know I posted the town front guard patch that got changes here? Should be able to find that thread. Funny that you keep linking it at me like its some major break in your treacherous case that is going to blindside me or something.

Pasi is top of the class for his post. He understands that I think they should be killable but have higher resist than they do now.

[BlkCamel]

I'm looking at you post above me. You are very proudly brandishing your poor reading comprehension. You're special.

And what specifically about my post are you looking at? You call me out personally (continuing a trend in this thread) but yet do not address me directly. I understand you don't want in town guards exactly like outside guards, but you are demanding changes on the worst kind of/ least amount of proof possible. If dev's wanted to they can check base resist rates vs other mobs in outdoor and in dungeons and determine if there is a problem.

Fact is, people killed guards en-mass across many servers from live through Kunark, In fact leveling/grinding off Thurg guards should be fun when Velious launches. Guards if anything should have a 10%*arbitrarily # to prove point could be anywhere to 10-30% but no higher so 30 resist on normal mob is 33-39 on guard* increase in resist vs outdoor mob, to call for whole-sale increases without having access to the raw resist data is as I said above dis-honest.



Hell I will quote it one more time, Not for you Nirgon but for any dev's that are reading your posts.

Wrong about this also Nirgon. This is 5/10/2000. I killed guards in freeport on many many characters on live.

This is from

From the patch:
"Though we do not have a problem with players choosing to hunt guards,
the newbie guards themselves, specifically the ones at the gates of
cities and in the vicinity of newbie zones, need to remain alive under
most circumstances. To that end, we have buffed up these
newbie-protecting guards, made them immune to magic, and given them
some pretty good healing properties, in order to make them less
attractive to people hunting them.

In addition, though we have left the guards inside cities as-is from
the perspective of power, we've also found a problem with the respawn
rate. Previously they were typically on a six-minute timer, making
them spawn much faster than an equivalent NPC would in a dungeon. We
have normalized the respawn time of guards inside cities to bring them
in line with dungeon NPCs"


*** I also want to point out the bold in the qouted text, guards inside cities as-is from the perspective of power, which it-self validates your claim Nirgon that Guards should be tougher then normal mobs at is recognizes that by the "perspective of power" they should not be adjust (they already were harder), but it wasn't by that much. It should never be Almost NEVER ROOTED, ONLY LAST 2 TICKS, CAN'T CHARM, CAN'T CHARM more then 15 seconds, These are baseless claims and is not classic.

[Nirgon]

Lol you posted it again. There's no reaching you. Guards resists are wrong here compared to how they were with in town guards from day 1 on live. They stayed that way aka were not changed with the town front guards. I even say that before you guys get involved in here. In fact I'm so aware of all this I started the town front guards thread on P99 and posted the patch notes for them. Funny how I test things here, notice they are wrong and then match my claims with evidence that matched eq Mac tests on mobs that were never changed.

How do I know these things are off? Or that its something I should investigate? Well that comes from me having played during this era and some how (lol) remembering. You know? Like how I know where I lived when I grew up? Or the name of my first grade teacher?

Explain for me why what I said was correct when tested by a dev here on eq Mac and by me on live? There's even two posts linked from the way back matching my claims. Hurts donut.

Again, I can't wait for the treachery and belligerence when we investigate how effective channeling is here.

[BlkCamel]

Lol you posted it again. There's no reaching you. Guards resists are wrong here compared to how they were with in town guards from day 1 on live. They stayed that way aka were not changed with the town front guards. I even say that before you guys get involved in here. In fact I'm so aware of all this I started the town front guards thread on P99 and posted the patch notes for them. Funny how I test things here, notice they are wrong and then matchy claims with evidence that matched eq Mac tests on mobs that were never changed.

Explain for me why what I said and was correct when tested by a dev here on eq Mac and by me on live? There's even two posts linked from the way back matching my claims. Hurts donut.

Again, I can't wait for the treachery and belligerence when we investigate how effective channeling is here.

Hell I will quote it one more time, Not for you Nirgon but for any dev's that are reading your posts.

[Nirgon]

You can't read or comprehend. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[BlkCamel]

Explain for me why what I said was correct when tested by a dev here on eq Mac and by me on live? There's even two posts linked from the way back matching my claims. Hurts donut.

Again, I can't wait for the treachery and belligerence when we investigate how effective channeling is here.

Hurts donut? what the hell are you even talking about? This is not a pissing contest. This about you saying root shouldn't stick and spells should resist at an exponentially greater rate then they are now. You want guards inside towns to never be rooted more then 2 ticks and agro from half way across the zone. This is not classic. You pulling out the troll-speak does nothing but make people dismiss you even more.

Your 14000 posts just fuel the fire, why can't you act like a normal person have a normal discussion. Why do you have to act like a child and name call and be snarky and just so damn petulant? If you are so well intentioned you should work on your people skills or just ignore the responses if this truly is just for the devs sake.

***I will step out of this topic now, Good luck gentlemen.

[Yoite]

nirgon when no one agrees with you and instead everyone is disagreeing with you, you are probably incorrect.

[Nirgon]

Ya except when we test it on EQ Mac/live... and I'm right.

[Nirgon]

I don't think you're referring to the icewell keep NPCs when you say killing guards in Thurgadin but those are the only ones I remember seeing people kill. They were different than the in town guards in old world, so don't think that I'm saying because icewell keep guards were basically immune to magic that this should hold true to old world in town guards. I'm not drawing that correlation at all. But I am refuting your point if you think wizards or druids solo'd them.

The icewell sentries were certainly killable but "completely" magic immune (siphon strength would barely land... immune for all intents and purposes like less than 1% to land for normal nuke/slow/mez lines), if you're referring to killing those all the time. This post also matches my memory regarding them. I would be making a similar but unrelated post if I saw people reliably slowing the icewell sentries.

Source (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zones.html?zstrat=120) referring to icewell keep sentries which should be magic immune (again this is in no way at all related to what I'm claiming about old world guards but a refutal to being able to easily root/slow anything in Icewell):

ummmm i seriouly doubt that u slowed ANYTHING in this zone. I play 53 shaman and i went to this zone for some dorf killing fun. try to slow stuff like a good shaman. After the 20th resist in a row, I gave up. The dorfs here are almost 100MR. The enchanter we had with us couldnt mez them for the life of him, even with 200cha and tashised. If you want to hunt here, be tank and healer heavy and dont expect your enchanter/shaman to get jack to stick.


I want the in town guards (not the front town guards or ones in neighboring zones like Nek forest/EC) to be quite a bit more resistant than they are here, that's it. I hope I'm being clear. I don't want them to aggro across the zone but more like 50% more of their current distance. Root holding? Absolutely the case it shouldn't hold very well on these guys. In fact they should be as strong resist wise as the unpatched town front guards (again snare was used not root when kiting them because of this). What I was able to do here in Grobb, Neriak, Halas and Freeport to the in town guards as far as spell resistance is wrong.

None of what I did to those guards here matches what I experienced messing with them on live.

In town guards:

Guard Imillin (https://web.archive.org/web/20010708040440/http://everlore.com/bestiary/beastdetails.asp?mode=show&BID=316016) (Freeport)

Hits for high 80's and has about 2000 hitpoints as well as high poison, disease, and magic resists.


Guard Mizraen (https://web.archive.org/web/20010708043557/http://everlore.com/bestiary/beastdetails.asp?mode=show&BID=316030) (Freeport)

Has about 2000 hitpoints and has very high disease, poison, and magic resists. Is nearly identical to Guards Inofus, Imillin, and Cozak, except he has higher resists.


Bouncer Scaar (https://web.archive.org/web/20030513130335/http://www.everlore.com/bestiary/beastdetails.asp?mode=show&BID=293272)(Oggok):

Norm guards in Oggok, resists all spells n hits about 150


Guard (https://web.archive.org/web/20030611094936/http://everlore.com/bestiary/beastdetails.asp?mode=show&BID=2225) (North Qeynos):

Guards are one of the mainstay NPC's of Norrath. They aren't technically monsters, but they CAN be killed and they are dangerous at times.


they dont have 500 mr(for the most part) however they do have high mr



Agree with all of the above I posted!

[Potus]

I'm disappointed this thread is on page ten and you're still using like 3 cherrypicked comments and EQ Live as your evidence. Scaar's is obviously describing a newbie guard (also please read the comments where people talk about fingering buttholes, definitely some legit evidence there).

Yes, let's nerf all the inner city guards in all the zones over Guard Imilin resisting more than normal according to an everlore poster.

Against all of this we have patch note history, numerous classic guides telling people to hunt here using snare and root (which you originally denied ever happened), numerous people in this thread telling you you're wrong, and the devs themselves saying they used the proper files on guards.

[Nirgon]

I'm counting at least 6 instances of guards having high magic resist here that I've linked.

You posted that they already have their correctly adjusted higher than average hps for mobs their level. Good, I'm glad they do. I think them taking full spell damage every time led to me believing their hp was lower than it should be. And truly, their effective hp versus casters IS lower because of this.

I think they should be adjusted based on my claim matching all what I've found across several guards. In fact, when I looked for more guards they weren't even listed for their zones (like Halas) on Everlore.

The Scaar comment is off and I know people were able to xp on SOME OF (like 2 or 3 of them?) the Oggok guards inside the town and the one that patrolled along the river near Feerott (not an in town guard like Reskin/Tolus/WC guards -- although the WC ones were pretty resistant too). It's just the point (why I posted the comment about the guards being very resistant to magic in the Scaar source) that these guards were quite resistant to magic, and here they didn't resist or partial a single spell I cast on them.

The only thing that is a shame is that we're trying to get things like this corrected and Velious tuned and there's no EQ Mac to go prove it anymore (at least Grobb checked out, very happy bout this as I saw them easily rooted/slowed and killed by shaman pets... the bashers of Grobb were MUCH tougher than getting wasted like this).

What do you guys think about the huge assist/aggro radius that Slate needs here? I don't think it should apply to all guards, just curious if you think I'm trying to make something up with that piece that I remember and researched to be a match of my memory too.

I know there is a big difference between the town front buff and how these should be working.. I even linked it first here (and the Dawg changed):
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82335&highlight=town+front . The town front buff changed the ones that Sundawg fixed and that's fine. The ones inside the town should be as resistant as the town front ones prebuff for live... (here I was easily able to charm and kill The Tangrin in FOB and Kirak in Nektulos with charmed town front guards before his fixes.. they didn't resist a damned thing).

[Alunova]

I'm pretty disgusted by this thread. This is the bug forum, not rants and flames. The amount of personal attacks and cherry picked data here is insulting. Do you think the devs don't know that bloodgill goblins have low hp for their level? We don't make decisions based on who wins a petty argument, or how many people gang up against another. We decide based on the best evidence with a small dose of what's best for the server. The bickering just makes it harder to sort through and lands those involved on our shit list.

Post evidence, post counter-evidence. Leave the decision to the devs and the insults in rants and flames or I'll personally request that your post counts are returned to 0 the hard way, which I have never had to do.

[Alunova]

As for my input:

As a warrior in classic I could not even dream of killing a guard until 48+ (before the buff to the gate guards). They were on par with hill giants in melee, I could barely take one down at 50 with fbss, 2 yaks and various classic gear.

As a necro, I could barely land darkness on them maybe 1 in 4 tries until I dinged 34-35 where I could probably land about 50%. Around 38-40 I could land most spells without many issues.

Guards were not killed because they were easy, they were easy to time and were killed for good loot and high exp bonuses in an area where you usually didn't have to worry about trains, assisting, fleeing or being overly attentive.

[Daldaen]

I recall the Oggok guards often being killed by groups. I don't remember exactly their resist rates however.

[Nirgon]

Alunova, I tested them recently and every single root I casted landed. That doesn't match the evidence I found or live testing. At this point if I'm making an area that people xp even a little harder (all that I think this change will cause), I expect to get attacked. I'm just admittedly not as friendly as the staff when people come at me.

[koros]

Alunova, I tested them recently and every single root I casted landed. That doesn't match the evidence I found or live testing. At this point if I'm making an area that people xp even a little harder (all that I think this change will cause), I expect to get attacked. I'm just admittedly not as friendly as the staff when people come at me.

What level did you use to root them here? What level characters did you use when you tested on live?

I never killed in town guards here, and guards in general on live, in town or no, seemed to have had generally higher mr than say, griffons. But it wasn't extreme.

For the record I killed many many guards in freeport and oggok on live. Dinged 50 in oggok in a group pre kunark. Certain guards seemed to be somewhat stronger, Mirazen or whatever is a name I remember for being something of a bitch.

It was DEFINITELY not near mr immunity. Maybe 50% resist rate on all or nothing spells at approximately even con. That dropped a lot as they became significantly blue.

Also, I never killed felwithe guards, but wasn't that a notorious necro hunting spot on live for low 50s necros?

[Nirgon]

Even as a level 60 wizard on live from my tests on the green con felwithe guards, they broke root constantly.

As far as here I've used a 60 wizard on blue to power level and then I leveled up on them from around 44 to 52 here on red.

The way I saw them killed solo or by caster groups on live was snare was casted until it stuck as it would hold for full duration every time once it stuck. Usually 5-6 casts would get them snared and you would pound away... but still things that weren't low resist dot lines would get lots of partials. This was also true for town front guards when they were killable.

Or as mentioned people had a tank involved or ran and nuked constantly. Keeping them rooted indefinitely and their lack of any resists here is what caused me to make the thread. I don't want magic immunity at all, I just want a rather noticable increase. To be fair, they give plenty of xp to compensate for the difficulty involved with killing them as Alunova mentions.

[lurk]

I seem to remember felwithe guards always LoH to full at 40%. Don't really see that here.

[Nirgon]

They def tried dispelling/rooting me and shit on live, so they weren't warriors. Paladin seems logical/obvious as high elves can't be warriors.

Rather start a new thread for dat one. Would gladly test them LoH'ing on live if that is admissable.


It was DEFINITELY not near mr immunity. Maybe 50% resist rate on all or nothing spells at approximately even con.

Would be extremely happy with this. It's what I remember too.