Velious Variance Discussion:

[Alarti0001]

So I think this needs to be hashed out.
This is a Pro/Con thread to discover the potential impact and proposed solutions for Variance in Velious.
This should be a healthy discussion for debate on this issue. So please no trolling/name-calling/or other asshattery.


Variance:

This is the forced randomization of raid mob spawn times. This is an artificially created solution to solve the problem of poop-socking. When it was created there was a 15-man on spawn rule-which basically means the first person to sit on RaidMobA's spawn point had claim on that kill.

Effect of Variance on Classic-Kunark:

Variance did limit poopsocking but did not end it. The unforeseen consequence is that raid guilds swelled in size to allow a raid force to be fielded at all hours of the day including constant tracking.

This is a shitty situation but is sustainable in Kunark.


Variance in Velious:

Kunark/Classic Raid mob count: 26 (not including Maestro but including 6VP not really sockable dragons)

Velious Raid mobs: 55(Approx) (not including ToV Entrance dragons or PoG Mini's)

The new raid content will more than double. Ever raid mob wont be able to be locked down... and you cant poopsock Velious raid mobs (other than probably Velk or Wuoshi)

Variance just hurts casual raiders and hardcore raiders alike. Velious will require so much more tracking on targets you can't realistically poopsock anyways, and casual raiders who are less likely to poopsock old world content will need to track for mob spawns.


Proposed Solution:

Remove variance on Old World and Velious encounters upon Velious' release.



/Debate on

[Joroz]

Do away with "classic" windows and go completely random on all raid targets. If there is a guessable window, there is always going to be a guild trying to monopolize everything they can keep track of. This has been proven many times by the community.

[Splorf22]

The new raid content will more than double. Ever raid mob wont be able to be locked down.

I'm not so sure about that. On the last repop (without any sort of notification) we had 300+ raiders online at once. In Velious that number could easily double as people who quit come back / play more not to mention more and more people joining the server and leveling up. Many of these people will have multiple L60 toons (hell, I have two. Tortue has 4. and so on.). Basically I see Velious being more of the same.

[Alarti0001]

I'm not so sure about that. On the last repop (without any sort of notification) we had 300+ raiders online at once. In Velious that number could easily double as people who quit come back / play more not to mention more and more people joining the server and leveling up. Many of these people will have multiple L60 toons (hell, I have two. Tortue has 4. and so on.). Basically I see Velious being more of the same.

How long does it take to mobilize for a mob in Velious compared to Kunark. How long does it take to kill a Velious mob compared to Kunark.

HUGE differences IMO.

[Swish]

http://i.imgur.com/1GjrVm1.gif

[SamwiseRed]

Do away with "classic" windows and go completely random on all raid targets. If there is a guessable window, there is always going to be a guild trying to monopolize everything they can keep track of. This has been proven many times by the community.

pretty cool idea actually.

[pasi]

While I don't think you're going to be able to lock down every single mob - I do believe the 5-7 day spawn (most of the desirable mobs in Velious) are able to be locked down.

Yeah, stuff like Vindicator (short spawns like Chardok Royals) won't be locked down, but I can guarantee you every ST key mob, Tormax, NToV, Statue (eventual cycle), revamp CT, and Dozekar are going to suffer the same fate as we've seen before.

I've got no idea how Dain is going to work though. It's one of those things where he's either gonna be in a perma flux of 10th rings or turning in his head to Tormax is going to be impossible since everyone wants FTE.

Tunare is also going to be weird with the whole Plane Clearing aspect.

not counting spawned Quest Stuff (Garzicor, 9th Ring stuff, Scout Charisa Stuff)

Quasi-Raid mobs:
Vaniki - PH system
Kelorek Dar
Lodizal - probably shouldn't be included since he's basically the Velious Drusella Sathir.
Dlammaz
Keldor
Philadelphia 76'rs


Raid mobs:
Wuoshi
Gozzrem
Telk
Vindicator
Velketor
Lord Dojo

Plus all old content.

Again, I don't think one guild is going to lockdown everything from AoW to Phinigel, but I do think the server is going to be in a similar state to Kunark now.

[Alarti0001]

While I don't think you're going to be able to lock down every single mob - I do believe the 5-7 day spawn (most of the desirable mobs in Velious) are able to be locked down.

Yeah, stuff like Vindicator (short spawns like Chardok Royals) won't be locked down, but I can guarantee you every ST key mob, Tormax, NToV, Statue (eventual cycle), revamp CT, and Dozekar are going to suffer the same fate as we've seen before.

I've got no idea how Dain is going to work though. It's one of those things where he's either gonna be in a perma flux of 10th rings or turning in his head to Tormax is going to be impossible since everyone wants FTE.

Tunare is also going to be weird with the whole Plane Clearing aspect.

not counting spawned Quest Stuff (Garzicor, 9th Ring stuff, Scout Charisa Stuff)

Quasi-Raid mobs:
Vaniki - PH system
Kelorek Dar
Lodizal - probably shouldn't be included since he's basically the Velious Drusella Sathir.
Dlammaz
Keldor
Philadelphia 76'rs


Raid mobs:
Wuoshi
Gozzrem
Telk
Vindicator
Velketor
Lord Dojo

Plus all old content.

Again, I don't think one guild is going to lockdown everything from AoW to Phinigel, but I do think the server is going to be in a similar state to Kunark now.



Am I correct in saying that Variance was designed to prevent poopsocking and not to prevent 1 guild from locking down content?

[SamwiseRed]

Am I correct in saying that Variance was designed to prevent poopsocking and not to prevent 1 guild from locking down content?

isnt that the same thing?

[pasi]

Am I correct in saying that Variance was designed to prevent poopsocking and not to prevent 1 guild from locking down content?

In Kunark, yes. For most Velious targets, also yes.

In Velious, it will make locking down NToV much more difficult. However, I do think it's still very doable especially when we see 400-500 more players online for Velious.

With that said, I'd like to see variance removed.

[Alarti0001]

isnt that the same thing?

not even close

[pharmakos]

Do away with "classic" windows and go completely random on all raid targets. If there is a guessable window, there is always going to be a guild trying to monopolize everything they can keep track of. This has been proven many times by the community.

idk, currently 7-day-respawn targets have a 4day+ window size. guilds are already spending over half the week tracking raid targets. if you made it 100% random then they would just have trackers at spawn points 24/7 instead of 24/4

[Alarti0001]

In Kunark, yes. For most Velious targets, also yes.

In Velious, it will make locking down NToV much more difficult. However, I do think it's still very doable especially when we see 400-500 more players online for Velious.

With that said, I'd like to see variance removed.

NToV with variance will be a nightmare... having to clear through it to kill each dragon.. plus it kinda removes the theme of the zone... (Kill all dragons then kill Vulak) etc.

[Kender]

part of the issue is on live, servers came down unexpectedly and reset all the raid timers. mobs also had different spawn times than normal on the resets before getting back into their regular variance

that meant the off peak guilds sometimes had first running at the bigger targets due to a server reset. it also made it alot harder to control all the targets.

if randomised simulated patch and server resets are off the table, then perhaps making the variance broader could be an option rather than just extending it's end chance.

for example. if in classic the spawn was a 5-7 day chance. this could be altered to 3-9 days making it much harder to predict.
A 3-5 day spawn could be 1-7 days etc.
A static spawn of over 3 days might spawn in any hour of the day it's due.

This means on average over time the same amount of spawns would be about the same but far more unpredictable.

[Kender]

NToV with variance will be a nightmare... having to clear through it to kill each dragon.. plus it kinda removes the theme of the zone... (Kill all dragons then kill Vulak) etc.


not sure how it was done on other servers, but on the ones i played on the dragon Aaryonar was concidered as the gate keeper. If a guild killed him, they were given a full day priority to the rest of ntov. any dragons they didnt manage to kill after this time was fair game to the rest of the server. variance in it's current form would screw with that quite a bit

Similar to statue. The guild that killed statue was given 6 hours to kill idol and aow after which time they were fair game

[Kender]

just to clarify a bit on what i was refering to

variance it'self is not necessarily a bad thing. but from what i understand, the way it is currently implemented it's only being extended at the end of the window. the respawn time needs to be determined at time of death and not changed so there is also a chance of a short spawn. this would help to simulate the server resets and patch days which were quite commonplace at times

some zones like NToV might need to have a smaller variance to fit the feel of the zone

[xarzzardorn]

problem with this is all targets were not created equal. do you really want to have to fte ffa mobs like pd, zland, lodizal (lol), tormax etc?

[Joroz]

idk, currently 7-day-respawn targets have a 4day+ window size. guilds are already spending over half the week tracking raid targets. if you made it 100% random then they would just have trackers at spawn points 24/7 instead of 24/4

24/7 tracking is brutal for something you have no clue when it will spawn. Random method would favor the pop in tracker or xp groups in the area discovering something is up potentially making raid mobs more accessible to guilds in the right spot at the right time. It would make it extremely hard for guilds to camp out at the next biggest target "due up" when they have no clue which it will be. The so called competition would shift from logging in hoping for FTE to a race on who could mobilize fastest and engage.

[pasi]

not sure how it was done on other servers, but on the ones i played on the dragon Aaryonar was concidered as the gate keeper. If a guild killed him, they were given a full day priority to the rest of ntov. any dragons they didnt manage to kill after this time was fair game to the rest of the server. variance in it's current form would screw with that quite a bit

Similar to statue. The guild that killed statue was given 6 hours to kill idol and aow after which time they were fair game

This is how my server handled it as well. However, the Asia-guild did not always honor this as their lust for Feshlak was too high.

Statue is an odd case since Vindicator is not tied to the cycle, but many would consider him "in the way."

[Alarti0001]

This is how my server handled it as well. However, the Asia-guild did not always honor this as their lust for Feshlak was too high.

Statue is an odd case since Vindicator is not tied to the cycle, but many would consider him "in the way."

Also... Idol will not be in Velious and AoW will depop quickly once statue drops.

[Kender]

Also... Idol will not be in Velious and AoW will depop quickly once statue drops.

idol is spawned when statue is killed. aow spawns when idol is killed

[Ele]

There will be no statue cycle on this server, you kill him you better be ready to attempt AoW. Idol was a post-Luclin introduction.

-Removed idol from the spawn chain. Killing Statue will spawn AOW. If this is found to be incorrect, it will be changed back.

[Kender]

This is how my server handled it as well. However, the Asia-guild did not always honor this as their lust for Feshlak was too high.

Statue is an odd case since Vindicator is not tied to the cycle, but many would consider him "in the way."

i once had to pull statue with vindi up because 2 guilds were forming in the arena. whoever pulled vindi was going to lose statue. noone thought it was possible but i managed to get statue out without agroing vindi. the other guild was fuming

[Kender]

There will be no statue cycle on this server, you kill him you better be ready to attempt AoW. Idol was a post-Luclin introduction.

not how i remember it but then my last server on live was a progression server so maybe they'd added it in

[pasi]

Also... Idol will not be in Velious and AoW will depop quickly once statue drops.

Hmm, I remember AoW staying up for a while after popping. I might be wrong though. I do remember him always getting stuck in walls by the East Wastes zone out and staying up for a bit. I've been wrong before though.

[Alarti0001]

Hmm, I remember AoW staying up for a while after popping. I might be wrong though. I do remember him always getting stuck in walls by the East Wastes zone out and staying up for a bit. I've been wrong before though.

I think its like 90 mins?

[pasi]

i once had to pull statue with vindi up because 2 guilds were forming in the arena. whoever pulled vindi was going to lose statue. noone thought it was possible but i managed to get statue out without agroing vindi. the other guild was fuming

Yeah, I've seen it done a bunch especially post-PoP/SoL when they changed pets as to not drawing their own aggro. Before then, you just gotta warp the mobs like how people split Vindi from his guards.

It makes for silly Kael antics though!

[Mehrk]

The only reasonable thing to do is set a minimum set time and a maximum set time and then just have each mob randomly spawn in between their set times. Fixed times are terrible.. even variance is terrible.

On top of that they need to actually increase some timers. Me and a friend claimed every single Lodizlol for over a month straight on luclin and made well over a million plat with absolutely no effort.. to be fair it was during PoP and not many bothered camping him but there are some extremely dedicated no-lifers on p99 who will undoubtedly have him locked down forevaeva. I'm sure it would be easy to look up the 100% accurate timer but I recall it being something like 12 +/- 2. In other words - way too damn fast.

[t0lkien]

I'm sure this has been suggested before (and not having experienced the raiding cluster on this server I've got nothing worthy to add anyway), but why not just have random simulated server resets like live? Every week+ the entire server is shut down and restarted with a 30 minute warning via server messages or something - as often happened back in the day. Seems like that would help with the 45+ day server bugs issue too?

[Nirgon]

There will be no statue cycle on this server, you kill him you better be ready to charm shit to kill AoW because they're putting that in for sure.

[pharmakos]

24/7 tracking is brutal for something you have no clue when it will spawn. Random method would favor the pop in tracker or xp groups in the area discovering something is up potentially making raid mobs more accessible to guilds in the right spot at the right time. It would make it extremely hard for guilds to camp out at the next biggest target "due up" when they have no clue which it will be. The so called competition would shift from logging in hoping for FTE to a race on who could mobilize fastest and engage.

you're underestimating just how much free time some people have

24/7 tracking would be brutal, but i'm pretty sure TMO et. al would still do it.

[pharmakos]

24/7 tracking is brutal for something you have no clue when it will spawn. Random method would favor the pop in tracker or xp groups in the area discovering something is up potentially making raid mobs more accessible to guilds in the right spot at the right time. It would make it extremely hard for guilds to camp out at the next biggest target "due up" when they have no clue which it will be. The so called competition would shift from logging in hoping for FTE to a race on who could mobilize fastest and engage.

you're underestimating just how much free time some people have

24/7 tracking would be brutal, but i'm pretty sure TMO et. al would still do it.

for example, with the current system, i'm pretty sure i could get some of the mains in my guild to camp out in Emerald Jungle for a few days while i track Severilous. i really doubt they'd be willing to leave their mains camped there if there was no set spawn window, though. 100% random is going to absolutely favor the mega-size tracking guild over any smaller guild.

[Nirgon]

Invis pulling in VP, lol clown shoes

[pasi]

Invis pulling in VP, lol clown shoes

This is actually classic. What guilds on live didn't just invis pull dragons to one of 3 spots? The 2 minute (or was it 90 second?) respawn was brutal for clearing. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess this is why every raid zone fully sees invis after VP.

I don't remember things like timing invis to hit after casts, but tricks like FD + stand + CoS to single pull were very well known in Kunark.

[Alarti0001]

Kind of like how VP's theme has been ruined this entire time by not having to clear trash?

Regardless i like the idea of this thread your head is in the right place wanting positive solutions, however it will most likely run the same course as all the other threads with similar intent sadly.

I'll hold out hope for this one.

Comments should be related to Variance and the advantages and disadvantages of that solution in velious.

Personally I think it is no longer viable come Velious, and we just need to demonstrate this to get it removed.

[webrunner5]

Variance makes it that nobody has a clue when mobs pop on paper. The strongest guild wins, plain and simple. What the hell is wrong with that?? You want any half ass guild to get the "Gold Ring"?? Crazy people on here. Get stronger and knock off the top guild. Pretty much like real life is.

[Razdeline]

Sadly I agree with this post and the poster.

[xarzzardorn]

for example, with the current system, i'm pretty sure i could get some of the mains in my guild to camp out in Emerald Jungle for a few days while i track Severilous. i really doubt they'd be willing to leave their mains camped there if there was no set spawn window, though. 100% random is going to absolutely favor the mega-size tracking guild over any smaller guild.

just track certain targets instead of everything? i always have a good laugh when some guild decides to poop sev or inny for a few hours with 30+ people only to have it not pop.

[SCB]

Rotation solves all these problems. You'll laugh at best and cry incessantly at the thought at worst, but you can't deny the fact that there's enough content to rotate on everything without needing a variance.

[Karafa]

^ ?

[SCB]

^ ?

Yeah that post needed a serious edit.

[falkun]

After all this time in Kunark with Variance, TMO wants to remove it because it'll make NToV more annoying?

I'm all for removing Variance and adding Server Resets at reasonable intervals.

Variance makes NToV a hassle instead of the raid dungeon crawl it was meant to be. I don't believe you can invis through it the same way that can be done in VP.

Due to the increased mob DPS and HP in Velious, Variance will make it so that batphoned raids have to be larger than the already ridiculous size of P99 Kunark raids. Only because you are the guild that currently kills most dragons is this question directed at TMO, at what point do you give up batphoning the instant something spawns and go to planned raids? Right now it appears TMO will batphone at any time and muster the ~35 it needs to kill any 32kHP target. Will you still batphone at 3AM to get Ikatiar (136500HP) or Aaryonar (221500HP)?

It appears TMO will do what it must to maintain dominance given the environment it lives within (simple predator/prey relationship), so either TMO must balloon in size to respond to Velious' increased difficulty, or TMO is happy with its size and would like Velious to shrink to its size.

The majority of the rest of the server has decided to say, "Screw it, we'll play at our pace regardless of the environment," and we get the amount of kills we do. Personally, the server as a whole would be better served by "shrinking," since the majority population does not want to expand to the size necessary to be abundantly fruitful in killing mobs. And it appears TMO is here with the same request to "shrink" the environment.

24/7 tracking is brutal for something you have no clue when it will spawn. Random method would favor the pop in tracker or xp groups in the area discovering something is up potentially making raid mobs more accessible to guilds in the right spot at the right time. It would make it extremely hard for guilds to camp out at the next biggest target "due up" when they have no clue which it will be. The so called competition would shift from logging in hoping for FTE to a race on who could mobilize fastest and engage.
Random method would also cater to the force with the most alts camped out at all the different locations. I'd rather give advantage to the lone 60 guy (note I'm included in this group) than the person who has leveled/purchased 4+ toons and spread them across Norrath. But I can also see how the person who invested the immense time/money into those 4+ toons thinks I'm a charity case because I haven't put in similar effort. That next raid kill means a lot more to the lone 60 than it likely does to the multi-character player, but then I'm more a fan of the journey than the destination.

[Nerosys]

I think variance should be removed, however the discussion doesn't end there, there has to be a solution to the toxic raid environment. Velious is no joke you will not be zerging mobs in velious and if you do you will be met with a wall of death. I do not think rotations or things of that nature were required in Kunark but come velious i think some agreement will have to be made, the competition should come from killing the content. Remember how long it took people to kill AoW with no aa points? Are we really going to try and guild hop and FTE engage in velious ? Besides the fact that it's just getting old i think you will find the results from dying due to rushed engages will get old and some agreement will be reached in the end.

[isoka]

Removing variance in Old World upon Velious release would allow big guilds willing to lockdown content to know when to log alt number 7 for a trakanon kill or a VP kill.

My guess is casual raiders will not perma track mobs but much more log a tracker, find a mob up and mobilize or find no mob and log the tracker off. In this case, variance in old world doesn't hurt casual raiders at all, though it hurts hardcore raiders willing to keep all content on lockdown.

Keep variance in place in my opinion to stop the tracking fest bullshit and let everyone enjoy the thrills of defeating a big bad mob.

[Ruenaros]

We know that simulated maintenance day repops are in the works as of that Sirken interview the other day. The implementation there really is what's going to decide whether or not variance is going to be needed anymore.

[Barkingturtle]

Remove it or not, there's no fixing the raid scene on this server because no amount of code can fix broken people.

[diplo]

Remove it or not, there's no fixing the raid scene on this server because no amount of code can fix broken people.

one of the realest things i've read in my p99 career.

[Gadwen]

Remove it or not, there's no fixing the raid scene on this server because no amount of code can fix broken people.

Well done sir

[Nlaar]

Remove it or not, there's no fixing the raid scene on this server because no amount of code can fix broken people.

Prost!

[falkun]

Well I tried answering the question, but then Barkingturtle came in and stated the blunt truth without beating around the bush. The raid scene is easy to fix, its the people that suck.

[Ruenaros]

fix is a pretty strong term... at this point most of us are just looking for a lifeboat

[Nirgon]

This is actually classic. What guilds on live didn't just invis pull dragons to one of 3 spots? The 2 minute (or was it 90 second?) respawn was brutal for clearing. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess this is why every raid zone fully sees invis after VP.

I don't remember things like timing invis to hit after casts, but tricks like FD + stand + CoS to single pull were very well known in Kunark.

Whatever you say, guy.

The IB guys who did VP on EQMac would tell you otherwise.

Invis pulling classic, HEH.

You see those Sirran can't be dictated anymore in the patch notes? Glad to wave goodbye to that (I DEFINITELY CHARMED SIRRAN ALL THE TIME BACK IN THE DAY, uh huh).

[Gadwen]

Well I tried answering the question, but then Barkingturtle came in and stated the blunt truth without beating around the bush. The raid scene is easy to fix, its the people that suck.

It's nothing that a few months of aggressive banning and item deleting couldn't remedy, but I don't see that happening...ever.

[Tiddlywinks]

Variance:

This is the forced randomization of raid mob spawn times. This is an artificially created solution to solve the problem of poop-socking. When it was created there was a 15-man on spawn rule-which basically means the first person to sit on RaidMobA's spawn point had claim on that kill.



The root problem with any discussion that starts like this is that whatever solution we encounter is not going to be classic.

The "First in force" 15-man on spawn points wasn't classic. To fix it (a non-classic rule) variance was introduced. In order to fix variance, we-ll be reverting to another non-classic rule an so on.

The real problem is that variance should never have been introduced to fix the 15-man rule, and the 15-man rule should never have existed either.

Things should be like they were during classic, and if that means 400 raiders from 6 different guilds know mob spawn times and show up right before a mob spawns for a chance at FTE lottery then so be it.

I agree with Sirken, the raiders should dictate how the raid scene runs. These gm-invented mechanics and rules are achieving the opposite, and anything discussed with the already existing non-classic rules in place will only do the same.

Create a classic atmosphere and let the players decide how they wish to handle things in a traditional manner. You can all show up with 400 people mob after mob for a shot at FTE lottery or you can grow up and rotate things.

Those are the only options that occured during early EverQuest. The fact there's more raiders now shouldn't matter.

[falkun]

Yup. If Server Staff wants "players to dictate the raid scene," then get out of our way. Make it strictly classic, let the social aspect of the game out. Right now the social aspect is being suppressed by Variance dictating how mob spawns happen.

Make it Classic.

[Tiddlywinks]

And honestly, Alarti, the only reason you created this thread is because you know TMO isn't going to want to sit on their ass and track double the content they now do, while at the same giving up on past gains.

You said it better than I ever could when you said that nobody was going to be able to lockdown all the content when Velious is out if there is a variance like there currently is because there are just too many mobs. So instead you come to the forums and try to start a discussion that can offer you a chance to lock the most down you can?

It's people like you, and threads like this that have lead the artificial raiding rules put in place by server staff, and created a non-classic raiding environment.

[Tiddlywinks]

Yup. If Server Staff wants "players to dictate the raid scene," then get out of our way. Make it strictly classic, let the social aspect of the game out. Right now the social aspect is being suppressed by Variance dictating how mob spawns happen.

Make it Classic.

Exactly.

[Alarti0001]

After all this time in Kunark with Variance, TMO wants to remove it because it'll make NToV more annoying?

I'm all for removing Variance and adding Server Resets at reasonable intervals.

Variance makes NToV a hassle instead of the raid dungeon crawl it was meant to be. I don't believe you can invis through it the same way that can be done in VP.

Due to the increased mob DPS and HP in Velious, Variance will make it so that batphoned raids have to be larger than the already ridiculous size of P99 Kunark raids. Only because you are the guild that currently kills most dragons is this question directed at TMO, at what point do you give up batphoning the instant something spawns and go to planned raids? Right now it appears TMO will batphone at any time and muster the ~35 it needs to kill any 32kHP target. Will you still batphone at 3AM to get Ikatiar (136500HP) or Aaryonar (221500HP)?

It appears TMO will do what it must to maintain dominance given the environment it lives within (simple predator/prey relationship), so either TMO must balloon in size to respond to Velious' increased difficulty, or TMO is happy with its size and would like Velious to shrink to its size.

The majority of the rest of the server has decided to say, "Screw it, we'll play at our pace regardless of the environment," and we get the amount of kills we do. Personally, the server as a whole would be better served by "shrinking," since the majority population does not want to expand to the size necessary to be abundantly fruitful in killing mobs. And it appears TMO is here with the same request to "shrink" the environment.



1. You are comparing Kunark and Velious as if they are like entities. They aren't. Kunark offered 5 raids initially and an additional 6 later on. Velious offers 55 big name raid targets, and 4 gear grind raids. When there was only 10ish poopsockable mobs (Classic/Kunark) Variance made sense. I've never liked variance but I recognized its value.

Velious Raid are largely not Poopsockable which removes the point behind variance. I know you are eager to troll and make this about TMO VS the Server but this has nothing to do with that. The entire server would benefit from lack of variance. Lets face it no matter what raid rules are applied to the server, TMO will structure itself to win. That point is largely moot.

TMO batphones at multiple times at first due to competition, so if we didn't we stood a fair chance of losing a mob. We also batphone because we have a large non-USA timezone playerbase. They should be allowed to raid sometimes too.

TMO will absolutely not have to balloon in size for Velious. But this isn't a TMO thread as much as you want it to be Deajay.

[RevengeofGio]

I'm really okay with things being completely random.....

Back when I raided on Lanys I remember things being up and casual guilds asking for the hardcore guilds to clear certain things.

[Alarti0001]

And honestly, Alarti, the only reason you created this thread is because you know TMO isn't going to want to sit on their ass and track double the content they now do, while at the same giving up on past gains.

You said it better than I ever could when you said that nobody was going to be able to lockdown all the content when Velious is out if there is a variance like there currently is because there are just too many mobs. So instead you come to the forums and try to start a discussion that can offer you a chance to lock the most down you can?

It's people like you, and threads like this that have lead the artificial raiding rules put in place by server staff, and created a non-classic raiding environment.

Are you lost. I am proposing the removal of an artificial raid rule. TMO is in the best position to lock down content that has Variance. TMO is also in the best position to lock down content that doesn't have Variance. Knowing spawn times would give other guilds a greater chance of getting targets. Be honest troll, how much do casual guilds track? Tracking is a completely anti-casual guild dynamic.

[Tiddlywinks]

I'm not lost.. and the removal of an artificial raid rule doesn't go far enough.

All non-classic raid rules need to be removed, and threads like this, by people such as yourself should have no place on a classic server.

It shouldn't even be a discussion. The rules should be classic, and the players should play within that sandbox. The fact that, so far, this has NOT been what has happened on this server is sad and unfortunate.

EDIT: Also, unlike you I should mention I don't give 2 shits about TMO, any other guild on the server, or any individual player. The only thing I care about is classic EverQuest, and the fact that on the one box that says they strive to achieve it they have created non-classic rules, warped player-csr interactions and in efforts to keep as many players content and happy as possible, generally bent over and strayed from their stated goals so that they can have a large playerbase with decent prime-time numbers online. Give me a box that is truly classic with 0 other people on it and I would be content.

[Alarti0001]

I'm not lost.. and the removal of an artificial raid rule doesn't go far enough.

All non-classic raid rules need to be removed, and threads like this, by people such as yourself should have no place on a classic server.

It shouldn't even be a discussion. The rules should be classic, and the players should play within that sandbox. The fact that, so far, this has NOT been what has happened on this server is sad and unfortunate.

I have always supported a no raid rule, no gm interference raid policy. I think most of my Live TMO brethen would agree on that too as that is the way Fennin Ro operated largely.

[Nirgon]

I'm more okay with no variance (it is stupid and leads to mobs spawning at horrible hours of the day) and whoever gets the xp on the raid mob, gets the mob.

It's about as good a determination as "who hit it first", however, it brings people pulling aggro and getting themselves killed into the equation and who brought the stronger KS group (read: elements of preparation and possible aggro management vs damage done skill) etc.

Not to mention? Whoever got the xp on the mob fucking got it, no need for a GM to look into god damn anything.

Why this has evaded reasoning on the matter is completely beyond me.

And more back on topic: Alarti is absolutely right. You will not need a variance timer on Lord Vyemm and especially it will be absolutely stupid on faction leaders in Velious.

"Oh I'm a dwarf faction player, I want to turn in my 10th ring... I'll just sit here and camp Dain with the variance trackers" <-- that makes sense!? really!??!!?

Here's the more intelligent scenario:
Le Dorf Faction Newb: "Hey TMO guy, I'm someone who doesn't hate on you in game and on the forums... when did you guys last kill Dain?"
Answer: "We killed him on Tuesday at 7pm eastern US time instead of 4:45am Wednesday because he's not on a stupid variance timer. Feel free to hand it in while we are buffing and clearing the basement drop in area for the pull"
Le Dorf Faction Newb: "Wow thanks and this no variance stuff sure is classic"

[Nirgon]

Honestly, why this is some unsolvable problem that involves wasting Sirken's time just... if I think about it too hard, I'm sure a bubble will form in my brain and pop and kill me.

You really think an idea that Nizzar suggested is good for the server? Jesus.

[xCry0x]

Create a classic atmosphere and let the players decide how they wish to handle things in a traditional manner. You can all show up with 400 people mob after mob for a shot at FTE lottery or you can grow up and rotate things.

Those are the only options that occured during early EverQuest. The fact there's more raiders now shouldn't matter.

Look at the current sky schedule mess. There are 10+ guilds now all wanting to do sky weekly and all those guilds could also contest everything outside of VP. A full blown rotation would be completely insane.

This argument is always beaten over the head and it seems like people completely ignore the fact that the progression on this server is altered from classic primarily due to the improper delay between expansions.

The length of time the server has been in its current stage has allowed an excessive number of people/guilds to be able to attempt and succeed at content their guilds would have classically not been able to accomplish. From what I remember on live there sure as hell was not close to 10 guilds that could do isle 1-5 on sky or the current ~7-8 guilds that could full clear sky. This translates into the situation where if dragons were on static spawns you would have this gigantic number of dragon capable guilds waiting vs on live where you had maybe 2-3 who could actually kill the shit.

If there was a 10 guild rotation on track with a static 7 day spawn (getting rid of variance?) then you would get 1 guild kill every 10 weeks... you would also have a mass guild fragmentation as nobody needs more than 2-3 groups now since you can schedule your 2-3 groups to get on. This means realistically you could be looking at 15+ trak capable 'guilds' and you only get a shot once every 3 months.

Last time I said this people argued back that at least under that system they would get a 'chance'. I understand that, but you are also talking about a 1/15 1/15 chance every 3 months on one of the 2 items dropping being what you want. That means in an entire year of doing trak with your guild you would only see half of his loot table (assuming you never get a duplicate).

That said, completely randomizing spawns would not be horrible because it would not allow raid forces to shift based on what mobs are in window. If every mob is always in window you would be forced to prioritize OR be forced to actually be a mobile raid force vs a static poop socking raid force. (I am assuming TMO generally poop socks raid forces at targets.. I honestly don't waste the time paying that much attention =P)

[falkun]

TMO will absolutely not have to balloon in size for Velious. But this isn't a TMO thread as much as you want it to be Deajay.

The points of my thread:
1) Remove variance (Paragraph #2). This is pro-server and even you agree with that.
2) Variance makes NToV a PITA (Paragraph #3). Do you disagree?
3) Do you think the top guilds will go after NToV mobs immediately on spawn or do you think they'll wait a while (Paragraph #4)? Since TMO is currently the top guild, I asked you the question. From my Classic experience, my guild had designated raid times, so we killed what was up when we raided, not raided when stuff was up. I'm trying to get a different opinion here and you are jumping down my throat about it.
4) TMO will adapt to best suite its environment. This is an observation, why do you take it negatively (Paragraph #5)? You sound like you agree as you attack my post.
5) The rest of the server does not feel like adapting for the environment and is content with raiding the way I classically raided, when they want to regardless of when mobs spawn (Paragraph #6).
6) I do not feel random would help players on the server like myself.

If you want to feel I'm attacking TMO, that's your prerogative. But you wanted my opinion on Variance, I listed it above in point #1. The rest were additional discussion because TMO appears to be the ones who will enter NToV first, where Variance will detract from the Classic experience the most.

You see me "attack" TMO because you want to, not because I am.

[falkun]

Alarti, if you really want something to respond to, answer the elephant in the room:
Remove it or not, there's no fixing the raid scene on this server because no amount of code can fix broken people.

[Alarti0001]

After all this time in Kunark with Variance, TMO wants to remove it because it'll make NToV more annoying?




You see me "attack" TMO because you want to, not because I am.

Your implication was pretty clear. You are either stating that TMO or Myself want to change rules to suit our needs. Implying that we are self-serving in nature.

Maybe you are just so used to attacking TMO you don't even realize when you are doing it anymore.

But for the purposes of this thread you seem to not like variance, so lets move on.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I suspect that a variance in NToV would benefit TMO over the long run way more than any other system. We have enough alts, CotH bots, and rez sticks to quickly get a raidforce to anywhere inside the temple in short order.

A linked respawn with training disabled would allow other guilds to split into other directions and claim at least some kills.

[Tiddlywinks]

Look at the current sky schedule mess. There are 10+ guilds now all wanting to do sky weekly and all those guilds could also contest everything outside of VP. A full blown rotation would be completely insane.

So? Then don't set up a rotation. The players are free to do what they want to determine how the raidscene functions.


This argument is always beaten over the head and it seems like people completely ignore the fact that the progression on this server is altered from classic primarily due to the improper delay between expansions

The length of time the server has been in its current stage has allowed an excessive number of people/guilds to be able to attempt and succeed at content their guilds would have classically not been able to accomplish. From what I remember on live there sure as hell was not close to 10 guilds that could do isle 1-5 on sky or the current ~7-8 guilds that could full clear sky. This translates into the situation where if dragons were on static spawns you would have this gigantic number of dragon capable guilds waiting vs on live where you had maybe 2-3 who could actually kill the shit

If there was a 10 guild rotation on track with a static 7 day spawn (getting rid of variance?) then you would get 1 guild kill every 10 weeks... you would also have a mass guild fragmentation as nobody needs more than 2-3 groups now since you can schedule your 2-3 groups to get on. This means realistically you could be looking at 15+ trak capable 'guilds' and you only get a shot once every 3 months.

Last time I said this people argued back that at least under that system they would get a 'chance'. I understand that, but you are also talking about a 1/15 1/15 chance every 3 months on one of the 2 items dropping being what you want. That means in an entire year of doing trak with your guild you would only see half of his loot table (assuming you never get a duplicate)...

Theres a lot of things that make this server not-classic aside from delays between expansions. The players are completely different. We all have knowledge of all the content. Most have done it before. There are more raiders than casuals. The list could do on and on. My point is it shouldn't matter. The players should NOT be catered to. If the players want to sit around in groups of 400-500 and wait for a dragon let them. That's their perogative.

The server is either an honest attempt to recreate classic or it isn't. Classic rule sets were what they were. Any amount of player/staff lobbying to change them for ANY reason (non classic playerbase/understaffing/too many raiders) is not the answer, and can only take away from the final goal of creating a classic server.

It seems like the systems we have in place are attempting to artificially create a classic atmosphere (1-2 raid guilds on top play hardcore, the rest are called "Casual") more so than a classic server. That classic atmosphere is gone, and has been for 13 years, we're not getting it back. Artificial re-pops, raiding rules that never existed on live, and anything else are not going to re-create it. So why now just create a sandbox and environment that is true to what people want, and let THEM decide how they deal with it?

[Tiddlywinks]

Remove it or not, there's no fixing the raid scene on this server because no amount of code can fix broken people.

I had missed this until Falkun pointed it out, but yes. This x1000.

[Nirgon]

1) Yes.
2) Do not disagree.
3) If you know Velious, you should know what they go after first.
4) Tween you guys
5/6) It's obviously a terrible system for everyone

You guys also need to think about this much.

If you can't kill Hoshkar here, you should go dragon faction.

I promise, promise, promise you.

The stat gains on the armor make up quite a bit (but not entirely) for the ntov drops. The halls of testing shit is f'king good and will likely not be contested unless another dragon guild pops up (I see this being a 2 raid guild faction server honestly). Regularly killing statue/Vindi for BPs takes care of a large demand for chestplate gems and class needs for plate bps. Clerics can take the class quest bps from sky shrine, shamans can take vindi bps, warriors takes breastplates of eradication.

OR

The other route.

You fight like cats and dogs over armor droppers in ToV, there's Dain engages where people back out, wipe, give him 2x daggers to make him ridiculous, Western Wastes is a total shit show (not tipping any hand related to strategy) spawn variance never goes away -> enjoy your poopsock lives.

Variance came about as a result of fighting over mobs. Go different factions, easy decision!

[Tiddlywinks]

Your implication was pretty clear. You are either stating that TMO or Myself want to change rules to suit our needs. Implying that we are self-serving in nature.

Maybe you are just so used to attacking TMO you don't even realize when you are doing it anymore.

But for the purposes of this thread you seem to not like variance, so lets move on.

I think anyone that purposes any solution other than: "Make it classic" is not here to play in a classic EverQuest sandbox and is most likely out to attempt to shape a server environment that benefits their own needs directly. The players, and the GMs for that matter should have 0 say in creating a raid environment on a classic EverQuest server.

Only the rules that were present during the time period should have any say, and those same rules should be the only ones used today, regardless of the differences between the playerbase, populations, your mother's dog between then and now. Anything else isn't classic.

EDIT: Just for clarification/the record that includes myself. NOBODY should have any say whatsoever. The rules should be as they were, and that should be the end of the story. Any modifications for any purpose, and you're not playing on a server attempting to emulate classic EverQuest.

[Nirgon]

Good post ^

[xCry0x]

What atmosphere are you trying to re-create when you say classic?

To me classic EQ = best guild gets all the best shit.

That is my high level look at what defines classic. If you want to start getting into all the micro aspects then you quickly land on 2+ years of kunark not being classic and all other "wah this isn't classic" arguments are just lumped into that same boat.

That seems to be the way this server is running so it seems to me that the non-classic mechanics did nothing more than keep the server hierarchy running as classic vs being some non classic cluster fuck where random guilds that can't get past idle 3 in sky can ninja FTE on trak and have 20 other guilds assist them in the kill.

[falkun]

Your implication was pretty clear. You are either stating that TMO or Myself want to change rules to suit our needs. Implying that we are self-serving in nature.
TMO is self-serving in nature:
Rotations are generally created when it is in the rotating guild’s interests to do so. Very rarely, if ever, are they fully motivated by altruism. Each guild will zealously look out for its own interests as it should. TMO needs a lot of teeth still, and this is probably the biggest reason we’re not currently overly interested in a rotation. Notice that TMO only began rotating with IB when it was getting roughly half or slightly more of the Traks.

It’s decision theory. That said, eventually TMO would probably agree to a rotation when it appears in the guild’s interests. TMO is, overall, interested in being a reasonable and valuable portion of the community. But, the first responsibility is to the membership. While I appreciate the idea of an open slot on the rotation, accepting that when so many members still need teeth and other drops, would violate the duty the guild owes its members.
Is it wrong to be self-serving? No, no one has your interests in mind as well as you do.

Maybe you are just so used to attacking TMO you don't even realize when you are doing it anymore.
I didn't mention paragraph #1 in my response. Paragraph #1 calls you out for the veil you are posting this from behind. Tiddlywinks puts it better:
And honestly, Alarti, the only reason you created this thread is because you know TMO isn't going to want to sit on their ass and track double the content they now do, while at the same giving up on past gains.

But for the purposes of this thread you seem to not like variance, so lets move on.
Sounds good.

[xCry0x]

I think anyone that purposes any solution other than: "Make it classic" is not here to play in a classic EverQuest sandbox and is most likely out to attempt to shape a server environment that benefits their own needs directly. The players, and the GMs for that matter should have 0 say in creating a raid environment on a classic EverQuest server.

Only the rules that were present during the time period should have any say, and those same rules should be the only ones used today, regardless of the differences between the playerbase, populations, your mother's dog between then and now. Anything else isn't classic.

EDIT: Just for clarification/the record that includes myself. NOBODY should have any say whatsoever. The rules should be as they were, and that should be the end of the story. Any modifications for any purpose, and you're not playing on a server attempting to emulate classic EverQuest.


Then when Velious comes out this server should be blown up and restarted on classic time line.

Problem solved.

[falkun]

I agree with Tiddlywinks. Make it Classic.

[Tiddlywinks]

What atmosphere are you trying to re-create when you say classic?

To me classic EQ = best guild gets all the best shit.

That is my high level look at what defines classic. If you want to start getting into all the micro aspects then you quickly land on 2+ years of kunark not being classic and all other "wah this isn't classic" arguments are just lumped into that same boat.

That seems to be the way this server is running so it seems to me that the non-classic mechanics did nothing more than keep the server hierarchy running as classic vs being some non classic cluster fuck where random guilds that can't get past idle 3 in sky can ninja FTE on trak and have 20 other guilds assist them in the kill.

There shouldn't be rules in place to create a classic hierarchy.

The rules themselves should be classic, and the non-classic aspects (players) decide for themselves what the new hierarchy looks like.

Rules should not be in place to create a classic atmosphere, because it's never going to happen with a modern playerbase. Only a time-machine can achieve this.

The way it works now is completely backwards.

[xCry0x]

I agree with Tiddlywinks. Make it Classic.

You cannot make it classic without restarting the server on the proper expansion timeline because that is exactly what is causing the high end congestion in the first place.

Saying "make it classic" is like telling people in bumper to bumper traffic to "drive faster". Yea, doesn't solve anything.

[Nirgon]

Some people have this medical disability where they come after an entire guild instead of members directly responsible.

TMO TMO TMO TMO on repeat or IB IB IB IB .

You do realize that maybe one or two people are the cause of all these nasty little corruption problems and the rest of them just show up when the batphone goes off with absolutely 0 dealings in suspicious or server subversion activities.

Learn to focus your blame and single out problematic individuals and maybe you can get something done. Saying every member (including newly tagged people) of entire guilds are scumbag, corrupting overlords just makes 0 sense.

[falkun]

Yes Halmir, the slow expansion release schedule will compress the high end. Non-Classic mechanics are getting in the way of allowing the Server's players to police themselves, as Server Staff have admitted they would prefer.

[kotton05]

keep variance, add a pre variance, end of story

[Nirgon]

Remove FTP rule, replace with most damage done rule

Remove variance

Let Sirken sort out important, solvable matters like corpses lost, new player disputes (read: player retention is a good thing), investigating and catching RMTers or enforcing the naming policy.

Being a "who hit the mob first" janitor is far beneath his skills as a friendly face that is determined to do good in Norrath.

[Mehrk]

Just for clarification/the record that includes myself. NOBODY should have any say whatsoever. The rules should be as they were, and that should be the end of the story. Any modifications for any purpose, and you're not playing on a server attempting to emulate classic EverQuest.

Because as we all know Verant was perfect and did no wrong. People want to relive EQ nostalgia, not relive EQ raid drama. Everyone has memories of naked PoF corpse runs, that doesn't mean I want to sit there for 4 hours trying to get my corpse back because I did it 14 years ago and have a memory of it.

You do realize that maybe one or two people are the cause of all these nasty little corruption problems and the rest of them just show up when the batphone goes off with absolutely 0 dealings in suspicious or server subversion activities.

They are though. They don't have the nuts to up and leave the guild and instead sit there wading through the hate that the entire server has for them due to a few member's actions simply for pieces of loot. That is reason enough to hate them, isn't it? It's like casting no blame on loyal soldiers for allowing something like the holocaust to happen.

Remove FTP rule, replace with most damage done rule

Remove variance

This would be the worst possible thing that anyone could ever do in any game ever regarding raid mobs. Every single contested encounter would devolve into absolutely nothing but one side trying to drop aggro on opposing dps/glitch the boss/abuse screwy pathing/hoarding players/bring stupidly massive raids etc etc etc. It would solve nothing and simply create a community where everyone hates everyone.


All I've learned from this thread is that..

1) - You can throw a rock in any direction and come up with a different end-all be-all solution to raiding.

2) - Rewording the title of a Ron White comedy special makes you some kind of great philosopher.

[falkun]

Some people do enjoy naked PoF corpse runs. If you ever get in that type of bind, let me know and I'll single-handedly get you CRed (I will not provide rezzing or getting you to fear, but I'll drop your body at the fear zone in solo assuming CT isn't up).

I too wish the reasonable majority Xasten talks about would speak up.

Straight Classic. Then we have nothing to blame but ourselves for the shitty raid scene.

[Nirgon]

Yeah dropping aggro and all that is so much of a regression from using key board macros and duct tape to hit Venril Sathir first.

Engaging a raid mob with the intentions of being fucking screwballs and acting stupid should result in deaths and people getting wiped (exactly what no aggro on a healed tank will do).

Sounds classic to me.

Go fizzle some ice comets big Mehrk. How dare you sir.

[Tiddlywinks]

Because as we all know Verant was perfect and did no wrong. People want to relive EQ nostalgia, not relive EQ raid drama. Everyone has memories of naked PoF corpse runs, that doesn't mean I want to sit there for 4 hours trying to get my corpse back because I did it 14 years ago and have a memory of it.

Then don't? Nobody is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do. This server shouldn't be catering to what players do and don't want to do. It should be creating a classic EverQuest environment. That is what it's stated purpose was, and indeed what most of the people who play here assume was going to be the case.

They leveled up, realized that's not how things actually work and either left or adapated.

[Mehrk]

Yeah dropping aggro and all that is so much of a regression from using key board macros and duct tape to hit Venril Sathir first.

Engaging a raid mob with the intentions of being fucking screwballs and acting stupid should result in deaths and people getting wiped (exactly what no aggro on a healed tank will do).

Sounds classic to me.

Go fizzle some ice comets big Mehrk. How dare you sir.

The only problem you are describing is the GMs lack of punishing people that deserve it. Instead of dealing with the only real problem that p99 has you think the GMs should be off doing menial tasks like enforcing the naming policy(by the way, is that guy named Cannabis, which is the EXACT name mentioned in Rogean's no-no name example still level 60?)

Does it sound classic for GMs to let people zerg mobs while attempting to grief each other with absolutely no interventions? Certainly not in any case I recall.

Then don't?

I'm not? I've never joined a guild or raided in the 2~ish years I've played here, and I don't really log on anymore. See I want to relive EQ1 raid nostalgia and have fun but the way it's handled by the players is so god-awful that I choose to do something that isn't... what's the word... completely fucking terrible.

Btw, thanks for the offer Falkun.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Remove on Velious release.

[Nirgon]

adapated.

Read: so addicted to classic EverQuest they're doing the equivalent of using knowingly laced drugs to get their fix.

Server needs to turn up the classic heat and burn out all the impurities imo.

[Ambrotos]

Wasn't Vulak tied to the other dragons? Or was that patched down the road? aka If you pulled Vulak when other dragons were up, they would come and assist Vulak.

[Rhambuk]

Variance was bad in classic, Variance is bad in kunark, and variance will be bad in velious.

Checking this thread again in +/-48 hours and possibly +24 hours if I think of checking it in the last, whatever the stupid rule is, few hours of the first 96 hours.

[Rhambuk]

Wasn't Vulak tied to the other dragons? Or was that patched down the road? aka If you pulled Vulak when other dragons were up, they would come and assist Vulak.

Yes, until they made the ring event which was horrid.

[falkun]

Wasn't Vulak tied to the other dragons? Or was that patched down the road? aka If you pulled Vulak when other dragons were up, they would come and assist Vulak.

I believe the original Vulak event involved him calling NToV (or at least a few of the named dragons in NToV) to his side, CT-style. Ele eludes to this here:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=764661&postcount=40

[Nirgon]

And no Mehrk

What sounds classic is no GM interference zones and implementing the Verant play nice policy.

I was going to spell out everything in the play nice policy but I'll boil it down to this. A GM may take the law into their own hands to ensure a fair and fun play experience for all. I saw Ozuri (there was no higher CSR GM) put this into full effect on my home server of Rallos Zek and *literally* gut the griefer/hard core elite as shit community. I saw how he listened to everyone's case and then rule or no rule being in effect, did what was best for the community (and completely fucked over my elite pvp raid sect.. but in retrospect, I kinda see why). It really made the server a more "friendly" atmosphere that retained subs. You know who did things like this? Big Uthgard. However, as I'm aware, the job kind of ... got to him and he made the occasional off the cuff ruling after (understandably) dealing with so many ridiculous people had him jazzed up to the point of a nuclear melt down. Likely in his terms: try being one person and responding to every petition and dealing with all the bull shit involved while more roll in.

Unfortunately for us we don't have a paid staff of guides around the globe to tolerate and enforce every single petition that comes into their inbox. Nor could we trust or keep an eye on that many people in positions of power. So we're left with either a staff that takes on what they can sanely handle, and some things like dealing with a population who refuse to stop making variations of the name Cannabis (think of Harrison making forum accounts here) go unresolved or you get someone like Uthgard who is compelled to handle every single act of non-classic injustice and by the nature of doing so, is a rapist to all who oppose a fun, sharing play environment.

And let me tell you this one last thing. You guys think Uthgard laid down the hammer and did things that made the tough guys around here cry (like death touching an entire zone), Ozuri brought down the thunder of thunders. He'd impose rules like if you PvP'd in a zone with a raid target, he'd just shut down the zone for the night so he could go to bed and 2 week suspend anyone for doing it with a second offense of immediate ban without parole hearing. He banned so many people in the course of a month during Velious that hadn't broken any listed rule other than "not playing nice", it would make your head spin.

[Nirgon]

Wasn't Vulak tied to the other dragons? Or was that patched down the road? aka If you pulled Vulak when other dragons were up, they would come and assist Vulak.

A Vulak attack initially worked like attacking CT. Except any of the named dragons in the zone would be brought to him upon attack.

However.

Certain monks who were elite enough (yes EQ has skill disclaimer) at FD pulling could handle the pull such that you could kill Vulak and leave Lord Vyemm (Vyemm being the toughest bitch in there) up. This created cries of exploit or unfairness from top guilds who did not have pull teams that could accomplish this, so it was changed to a ring event.

My opinion? Classic Vulak of course. Not sure if pulling mechanics here match live closely enough but I think they do to allow this. Those who played know of it and may already be ready to attempt a Vyemmless Vulak kill.

Vyemm I see being a cock block until people gear up and learn the fight, but a Vulak kill (along with most others) may indeed be a very possible day 1 reality with the amount of sky haste, rogues/clerics and VP gear thoroughly farmed.

[Ele]

Wasn't Vulak tied to the other dragons? Or was that patched down the road? aka If you pulled Vulak when other dragons were up, they would come and assist Vulak.

Vulak would rain havoc down upon your raid if you aggro'd him without killing the rest of the dragons first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AcAxGE-8ag

My body is ready to recreate this scene in 1080p for all time.

[Alarti0001]

Wasn't Vulak tied to the other dragons? Or was that patched down the road? aka If you pulled Vulak when other dragons were up, they would come and assist Vulak.

He would shout every few seconds but the script was easy to get around.

[Barkingturtle]

Then when Velious comes out this server should be blown up and restarted on classic time line.

Problem solved.

This is exactly what should be done. Call this iteration an extended beta and do it right next time. It's been a lot of fun and I'd be willing to do it again, I mean -- we all already are, right?

Seriously though, nothing else solves the very non-classic condition of this server and folks possessing multiple raid-ready characters which they can just plant wherever. You could wave a magic wand tomorrow and make all the rules exactly classic, but if the well-geared alt armies remain then mobilization is trivialized. That's not classic.

[Ele]

Spawns after slaying all lords and ladies right?

Nope.

[Nirgon]

He would shout every few seconds but the script was easy to get around.

Well looks like Alarti has a leg up on the competition. I doubt few other people know and that's not something that is too likely to leak... or even if it would matter if it did.

[Rhambuk]

Turp wtf is your sig

[Ele]

Yup

If you knew the answer, then why did you ask the question?

[Nirgon]

The answer is nope Retti, JESUS SON GET IT TOGETHER

[Alarti0001]

Well looks like Alarti has a leg up on the competition.

In every situation. TROLLOLOLOL

[Nirgon]

I was setting expectations to reduce frustration. Don't troll your own thread brodog.

[Alarti0001]

I was setting expectations to reduce frustration. Don't troll your own thread brodog.

Oh come on it was just humor

[pasi]

Whatever you say, guy.

The IB guys who did VP on EQMac would tell you otherwise.

Invis pulling classic, HEH.


If we're talking EQmac, thats good ol PoP era. Coincidentally, I 3-4 manned VP every week for well over a year during the PoP-GoD (basically, until Revamp) stretch for copies of DI and things like Blood Orchid Katana. We invis pulled everything to zone in. Luckily I'm a hoarder and EQ is free so I can log in my characters with 20 classic VP drops banked if you want.

As I stated before, I'm not sure if the whole 'timing invisibility to land with spell casts' thing worked how it did, but the CoS trick I posted worked (and still worked up until I quit the second time in Secrets of Faydwer). That trick was FD, stand + instant Circlet of Shadow - any see invis mobs would come toward you and mobs that didn't would path back. IF invis broke, the non-see invis mobs would re-aggro.

Yep - a quick google of Evil-Gamer Circlet of Shadow. This method (FD + CoS) pulling still functioned like this on live as of 2008.

there are basically 2 major tricks that instant invis + FD allows you to use, presuming that mobs don't see invis:
1. you can pull a ton of mobs, fd, get up/invis, and the mobs will not re-aggro you (which is mainly useful for moving and pulling) - however, if you break invis before all those mobs have reset, they will re-aggro you.
2. you can use invis to pull mobs through other mobs without getting aggro (for example, tag a mob in RSS and then invis, you can run through the entire zone and only the mob you tagged will chase you)

Again, I don't know if timing casts with invis ever functioned like it does here. There might be differences in initial social aggro versus continued social aggro. In other words, even with invis mobs nearby the initial aggro target might join in, but continued mobs without see-invis definitely didn't.

This is not something I would expect anyone who did not play a SK or Necro to know.

[Nirgon]

Yeah being invis to undead with an undead froglok unrooting and chasing would aggro every single mob it passed. Same should go for pulling Hoshkar past a couple guardian worms even if they Dont see invis.

Something I expect people who want easy gear over a classic server to refute.

[Nirgon]

@pasi I am making sure a difference is known in the argument

[pasi]

I'm digging through the SK-forums atm. Unfortunately, the old shadowknight.org can't be accessed through the wayback. However, there's still a ton of confirmation of this. As for the guk example - I don't know, I didn't have access to instant IVU until Cazic Thule Revamp. VP was one zone where we relied on invis-pulling due to the incredibly quick respawn.

Here's something though:

There's also something I've discovered as a ranger years ago. I don't know if it still works this way or not, as I've not used a bow in my entire shadowknight career thus far... but once I had innate camo, one can pull social mobs single from a group of socials by squeezing off an arrow, and immediately going invisible before the arrow hit. Then when the arrow crunched into the mob, it was as though none of the others had ever seen where it came from. The mob would come by itself.


We used to refer to this as rule #1 on the SK forums - you didn't directly talk about it - but some people still did.

[Joroz]

That trick was FD, stand + instant Circlet of Shadow - any see invis mobs would come toward you and mobs that didn't would path back. IF invis broke, the non-see invis mobs would re-aggro.

This is correct. If you pulled a mob and went invisible the aggro mobs would still transfer social aggro to nearby mobs while your invisible but those socially aggroed mobs would not start the chase until you became visible. The part where that aggro transfer happens when mobs don't see you doesn't appear to be implemented here, effectively making you invisible while you drag a mob around the zone.

[Alarti0001]

So who is against getting rid of Variance?

[Rhambuk]

So who is against getting rid of Variance?

I don't know why anyone would be in favor of variance.

Variance put in place to remove poopsock and give smaller guilds a chance at raids because who is going to sit around for 48 hours, I thought...

what happens? Guilds track for 48 hours straight...

it just makes it harder for them, doesnt really do any good except forcing those guilds to be ready at a moment notice leaving the nonraid world more open for people. no fungi/royals/drusella/etc being perma camped by tmo in between raid spawns. but whatev

[Aeolwind]

TL; DR

Kland, Zland, Sont, Yeli, Statue, Tormax, Vindi, Wuoshi, Kelorek, Velketor, Lodizal, West TOV, Dozekar, North TOV all of that had built in variance to some degree. Yeli/Max I'm not sure of, but went with it anyway. The talisman dragons had a +/- Range that was F'd up. Dozekar was 3 days +/- 18 hours. Other stuff like Garzicor you could do as fast as you wanted to though, so he should be left out of the equation. ST even had variance.

[Alarti0001]

TL; DR

Kland, Zland, Sont, Yeli, Statue, Tormax, Vindi, Wuoshi, Kelorek, Velketor, Lodizal, West TOV, Dozekar, North TOV all of that had built in variance to some degree. Yeli/Max I'm not sure of, but went with it anyway. The talisman dragons had a +/- Range that was F'd up. Dozekar was 3 days +/- 18 hours. Other stuff like Garzicor you could do as fast as you wanted to though, so he should be left out of the equation. ST even had variance.

to a degree........

[uygi]

Everything should either be properly classic or random chance 24/7 with a mean spawn rate of 4.3/month for 7-days and 10/month for 3-days if necessary to prevent poopsocking. I could never figure out why widows/variances were the solution.

[webrunner5]

So who is against getting rid of Variance?

I love Variances. Makes the game exciting. Come on if it was a known time you could have a bowl of cornflakes, take a crap, play with the old ladies ass etc. , watch Oprah for a bit, than go raid. How the hell boring is that.

Plus there wouldn't be shit to read on the forums. :eek: