Duration of Shared Grp XP Penalties

[Kassel]

The dev letter clearly states the class-based penalties that were designed into the game from the start with the original vision of what hybrid classes were meant to offer in terms of power created unexpected results because that "greater power" or "extra group benefit from the class" never materialized in reality. I really can't spell it out any better than what I just did... I'm sorry. I'm going to drop it before I enrage a dev... but I don't see how this cannot be called a bug.


See bolded parts for correct logic

[Tappin]

Exactly.

The way it was intended was that there would be "greater power" or "extra benefit to a group" for a particular class to create the need for an class-based XP penalty. The dev letter states this in no uncertain terms:


"When EverQuest player characters were being designed, it was immediately apparent that some races and classes would be more powerful than others given versatility and other factors."

However, there was no "greater power" or "extra benefit to a group" for particular classes, therefore it was not working as intended. This is also clearly stated in the dev letter:

"Class-based penalties are not appropriate. Classes are roughly equivalent in power throughout the level ranges, and the versatility does not make up for that penalty."

Thank you for helping me make the case that a bug = something not working as intended.

But we are talking about EXP here. And they designed the EXP to work the way that it worked. It was designed that way. Even if it was WRONG, it was not a bug.

[YendorLootmonkey]

See bolded parts for correct logic

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bug?show=1&t=1286736154

2: an unexpected defect, fault, flaw, or imperfection <the software was full of bugs>

Yes, I can do that too. Why is everyone so hell-bent on twisting the verbage of the dev letter that plainly states that the class-based penalties were a flaw due to the class-based "extra benefit to the group" or "greater power" never happening, yet the penalties that were supposed to match those were left in the game?

[Virtuosos]

personally, as a paladin, i feel like i am a very useful part outside my tanking role....and i know that all the other paladins and sk's and rangers feel the same. we are extremely versatile with our role, instead of being stuck like the others.

think that means we have a greater benefit TBH

and i played a paladin back on live as well...i lived with it back then, and i chose to do it yet again on p99 soley because i was so useful in groups and raids. granted, once kunark and veilous hit, hybrids were definately not as spectacular as they once were, but thats because of so much new content and balancing.

but in live, a hybrid tank is so much more useful than a warrior tank due to their ability to snatch aggro, keep it, let the warrior build theirs, and then switch to an alt healer or off tank while the warrior lets their weapon contiune proc'ing....thats pretty damn impressive for a class that doesnt have any greater benefit than another class.

[YendorLootmonkey]

And they designed the EXP to work the way that it worked.

Yes, they designed it under certain assumptions that were later found to be incorrect, the assumption being that there was additional power/group benefit that one class offered over another.

They fixed it when they determined those assumptions were incorrect.

So if this should be fixed at the time it was determined that the assumptions were incorrect, then due to hindsight being 20/20, we knew those assumptions were incorrect at the very start of this server, 9 years after those assumptions were determined to be incorrect.

[YendorLootmonkey]

but in live, a hybrid tank is so much more useful than a warrior tank due to their ability to snatch aggro, keep it, let the warrior build theirs, and then switch to an alt healer or off tank while the warrior lets their weapon contiune proc'ing....thats pretty damn impressive for a class that doesnt have any greater benefit than another class.....

So based on that line of reasoning, clerics should have a huge XP penalty based on their utility in a group/raid...

[nilbog]

Nilbog,

If you played a hybrid, then you know how important the revision is and you remember wishing someone had pointed it out sooner for Verant/Sony to fix.

No. I remember thinking.. "wtf why do all the newbies get to benefit from not having the penalty for the past 2 years? Is there even a point to the warrior class?"

Wouldn't it be better for the long-term health for the server and overall gameplay if more people played the hybrid tanks (allowing for more grouping opportunities) instead of feeling compelled to go play some other class because they know in advance how the XP mechanics work and that it is not in favor of playing a hybrid, in terms of both general XP gain and getting a group?
Classic EQ was about you forming your own group.. not the game mechanics being aligned to balance classes. That's the beauty of it later on.. if no one wants to play a ranger, there's lots of good ranger loot that will be rotting on raids. When that starts to happen, people will play that class.


Yes, I know Verant/SOE made the decision based on customer-retention and we do not pay to play here. But my definition of a bug is "something that's not working as intended." i.e. broken. Verant clearly stated here that the original vision for hybrids would be that their "greater power" would warrant the hybrid XP penalty. As people gained levels, it was apparent that that "greater power" was never there. Same thing is happening here. What's your definition of a bug, then?It's working as intended, because your developers say it is working as intended. If there is a portion of the developer's exp system that does not function as they say it should, that's a bug.

"When EverQuest player characters were being designed, it was immediately apparent that some races and classes would be more powerful than others given versatility and other factors."

They then admitted that this concept of "being more powerful" never materialized:

"Later, it came to light that the concept of being "more powerful" began to break down at the upper levels, given that everyone capped at the same level."They "admitted" to that fact too early, imo. I disagree with you, because hybrids are clearly very powerful at the end of Velious. Maybe they should have made this change at the beginning of Luclin.

You can twist it and manipulate the words all you want. The dev letter clearly states the class-based penalties that were designed into the game from the start with the original vision of what hybrid classes were meant to offer in terms of power created unexpected results because that "greater power" or "extra group benefit from the class" never materialized in reality. I really can't spell it out any better than what I just did... I'm sorry.Once again, this letter was written before they could even see the outcome on a grand scale. They listened to all the bitching done in Kunark, and decided to make a carebear group change for complaints. Velious is when paladin and sk hybrids became powerful, and always chosen for group tanks over warriors, in my experience. Bards were always chosen, and needed. It's.. rangers that are left lacking.. and that's working as intended.

*My* opinion on the matter is that there shouldn't be a superfluous amount of hybrids. That seems to be the original intent of the game. If you want to be level 60 and be as good of a tank as a warrior, and have 30% of a spellcaster's arsenal, then there are trials and tribulations you need to overcome. That's my RP opinion though.

[YendorLootmonkey]

It's.. rangers that are left lacking.. and that's working as intended.

Pffft. :P

Well, we eventually get ours... just not within the scope of this server. =/

[Virtuosos]

clerics only heal on raids....buffs....maybe if they are idiots they will waste mana and nuke.


paladins offheal, tank, buff, off tank, MA, blind to get aggro off casters, root to keep CC, stun to stop spells...thats not really versatile on a raid is it?

you dont see clerics tanking a mob (unless your name is holey -.-) or rooting mobs or doing anything but healing...thats their role.

you dont see wizards doing anything but nuking
" " chanters doing anything but crowd control -- their pet does everything, not them
druids kite and buff
warriors just tank
magicians sit afk while their pet attacks (or mod rod)
rogue dps


ect ect

[YendorLootmonkey]

clerics only heal on raids....buffs....maybe if they are idiots they will waste mana and nuke.

I understand that, but my point was, if class-based XP penalties were based on utility to a group/raid, I think we can all agree that a lot of shit wouldn't be going down without clerics (90% rez, complete heal? yes please!), therefore they probably have the greatest "usefulness" of all... so wouldn't that then warrant the greatest class-based XP penalty if we're thinking in terms of "what a particular class has to offer a group/raid"?

I know what point you're trying to make, and you know what counterpoint I'm trying to make. I'm frustrated hybrids have to have this fight on two different timelines... but it's not like I didn't know what I was getting into playing a ranger on Live from Classic to GoD and then rolling one here again knowing full well what the deal would be. :P

[feste]

Nilbogs vision is right in line with mine so i guess im lucky. besides when i see a troll sk i wanna think " shit thats one hard mother effer right there" and i think they are better when they are rare.

ps. i play a necro and a warrior so what do i know =p

[Uthgaard]

It's not like anyone is bringing up anything that hasn't already been said or answered in the first 25 pages of this 3 month old thread that someone couldnt check dates on and decided to necro.

One person's inability to read does not constitute a requirement for us to repeat ourselves until you've tired of bellyaching.

[RKromwell]

I don't mind that it takes me almost twice as much exp to level. Just don't screw with the people that let me group with them. That is the big issue with me, I will eat that penality all day long. Just don't make me dish it out to the folks that group with me. Group invites are rare as it is.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

besides when i see a troll sk i wanna think " shit thats one hard mother effer right there" and i think they are better when they are rare.

*ahem* Thanks

and yeah, I solo'd more than half my levels, but when I was grouped, I made sure there was no cause to bitch about the amount of xp I took from the group by chain pulling until the casters begged for mercy and a med break, or holding aggro on 3 mobs at a time cause who wants to wait for a CC class when we can just AE it down (your SK hasn't max'd evocation yet?), or any of dozens other tricks that an experienced hybrid has the tools to provide.

I love warriors. Everyone should. They make fantastic tanks, and after disciplines, they are unmatched for raid tanking most every encounter. With a good golf bag and a smart player, they're great in groups too. So, I want the average player to be intimidated by the xp penalty on hybrids. I want the average player who is interested in tanking to go warrior. I like being rare.

[Combo]

I want the average player who is interested in tanking to go warrior.

As a non-tank that doesn't have a character over 15, I really don't.

Pre-50, Disease Cloud / Blind aggro or gtfo. The "Average" player can press those buttons, but the "Average" player can't afford double Obsidian Shards.

[guineapig]

I understand that, but my point was, if class-based XP penalties were based on utility to a group/raid, I think we can all agree that a lot of shit wouldn't be going down without clerics (90% rez, complete heal? yes please!), therefore they probably have the greatest "usefulness" of all... so wouldn't that then warrant the greatest class-based XP penalty if we're thinking in terms of "what a particular class has to offer a group/raid"?

I know what point you're trying to make, and you know what counterpoint I'm trying to make. I'm frustrated hybrids have to have this fight on two different timelines... but it's not like I didn't know what I was getting into playing a ranger on Live from Classic to GoD and then rolling one here again knowing full well what the deal would be. :P

I understand what you are saying. Clerics are "vital". In EQ, the term "utility" is more about having answers for multiple situations and playing multiple rolls. It's all semantics really.

Basically what Yendor is saying that the vital classes that are needed nearly 100% of the time should have the biggest exp penalty. It does make sense and if I was designing a game today that might be an idea I would use when creating the classes. :)

But you know what I'm about to say next: That's not what this server is about. They want to replicate the way EQ was circa 99-01 and do it chronologically.

[Puyen]

Makes me not want to grp with a hybrid but what do I care I solo

[Wizerud]

Get squishing them. Let me know how far you get. Clock's ticking.

You completely missed my point, but that's ok because clearly from the quoted producers letter it wasn't a bug. It was just a stupid design decision.

[Wizerud]

And to follow up on that, because its actually not a bug it would only seem to make sense to drop the penalty at the servers inception or on the timeline. Maybe if there is ever a second server it's something that could be implemented at the beginning along with gnome sk's and assling rangers.

[Tananthalas]

along with gnome sk's and assling rangers.

That was the worst developmental decision Sony ever made allowing those two race/class combos.

[eqravenprince]

I don't understand the experience penalties that were applied in classic EQ. Probably originally it was thought that hybrids would be more powerful therefore it should be harder for them to level. But that never turned out to be the case.

Second thing that doesn't make sense is why does a hybrid deserve more experience in a group. Again, it probably was part of the original thought that a hybrid would bring more to a group, therefore deserve more experience. But again not the case.

Experience should simply be mob exp divided by number of people in the group. Race/Class exp penalties or bonuses should apply to even out how fast they level. With a little database mining, how fast a Race/Class levels could easily be determined and then apply the appropriate experience modifier. Then all Race/Class combinations would level at around the same speed and people could bitch about not having enough variety =).

[jimmygarr]

I may have missed it in all the ranting and raving (I tend to space out when people /flame on) but does the exp penalty on P99 double with two hybrids in a group, or triple with 3, etc? Glorfinrod asked earlier but i didn't see a response.

[drakleon]

If I'm a troll/sk does it give the whole group the 65%?

[Messianic]

That was the worst developmental decision Sony ever made allowing those two race/class combos.

No wai, Gnome SK's and Paladins Rocked

[Lagaidh]

I've read this thread up to page 6 and all I can say is, man there are a bunch of whiny selfish brats on these forums.

I had no compunction whatsoever rerolling my dorf pally here knowing that the penalties would be in place. I'm turning groups down so that my wife and I stay within a couple levels of each other.

What the hell is wrong with all of you? I agree, it's a real penalty with no good explanation, but you know what? Just play. See if you really care if you are truly playing.

Good grief.

[Messianic]

If I'm a troll/sk does it give the whole group the 65%?

In a diminished sense, yes.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=95893#post95893

[KilyenaMage]

Why does the Rogue gain the least xp of all!?!?

Doesn't track.

[yaeger]

Why does the Rogue gain the least xp of all!?!?

Doesn't track.

Rogues need less exp overall to level.

So, if you're grouped the exp gets spread around so everyone levels at the same rate (without figuring in race exp penalties).

[Trademaster]

Well, considering that it was an hour from my post to your first response, I can only assume that the person in EC who said that to you was simply referring to my post. You tried to make it sound like there were rumors floating around that my post corroborated...


Bumgamgar you've fallen for one of the classic blunders! Just behind "Never Start a Land War in Asia" and "Never bet against a Sicilian When Death is on the Line" is Never imply that there may be a change to a game that geeks play"

Let's face it, we're socially inept, we base our self image on the toons we play, we fear change and any change to this game whatsoever is..... a slap in the face to druids everywhere™.

[Kckelley]

What the hell is wrong with all of you?


I have thought this quite a few times while reading the boards since I came aboard. Luckily in game it hasn't been nearly that bad. So far.

[Dangermouse]

I'm new here but can I just say that the Project 1999 has faithfully recreated the experience of reading the old Verant forums :D

[Messianic]

I have thought this quite a few times while reading the boards since I came aboard. Luckily in game it hasn't been nearly that bad. So far.

It won't. The more time i spend in-game as opposed to the forums, the more happy I am with the game.

[Zarniwooop]

Not true, I've checked it with debugging repeatedly. In fact what happens is:

Example mob worth 1000 xp.

One person killing one mob gets 1000xp.

Six people killing six mobs get 6600xp (which equates to 1100xp per player before normalization).

If all six players are the same level and are class/race combinations without any XP modifier then all six players will get 1100xp each.

However, if the group is again the same level, but has some penalties etc, it works out like this:


Race Class Per Mob For Six
--------- ------- ------- -------
Human Cleric 162 974
Ogre Warrior 174 1042
Halfling Rogue 142 851
Erudite Wizard 180 1083
Barbarian Shaman 171 1026
Half-elf Ranger 271 1624
--------- ------- ------- -------
Total 1100 6600

So except for the Human Cleric and the Halfing Rogue, all members of the group earn more XP for killing 6 mobs while grouped than they did killing one mob solo.

The benefits of solo'ing vs. grouping depend on a lot of factors, but from a raw XP perspective, if the group can consistently kill 6 mobs in the amount of time the solo'er kills one mob, the group will earn faster XP over time.

How on earth do you end up with those values. From the chart listed in the FAQ rogues and halflings have an exp bonus, not penalty. Can someone explain how on earth he comes up with these numbers?

[Messianic]

How on earth do you end up with those values. From the chart listed in the FAQ rogues and halflings have an exp bonus, not penalty. Can someone explain how on earth he comes up with these numbers?

Rogues and Halflings do have an exp bonus.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1002

What are the experience penalties/bonuses?
By Race:
Troll -20%
Iksar -20%
Ogre -15%
Barbarian -5%
Halfling +5%

By Class:
Paladin / Shadowknight / Ranger / Bard -40%
Monk -20%
Wizard / Magician / Enchanter / Necromancer -10%
Rogue +9%
Warrior +10%

[Zarniwooop]

That's my point. Why does the rogue get an exp penalty in the above example?

I'm not meaning to derail other discussion (although this should be a very dead horse), but I cannot for the life of me why the class with the bonus is the one receiving the least exp in the above example.

[Kassel]

So, if you're grouped the exp gets spread around so everyone levels at the same rate (without figuring in race exp penalties).

Yagear stated the above. I do not think it is accurate and would love a source. I don't think mobs give you a % of level i think they give you a set # of EXP points that gets modified by Zone/Race/class/#in group.

[nilbog]

That's my point. Why does the rogue get an exp penalty in the above example?

I'm not meaning to derail other discussion (although this should be a very dead horse), but I cannot for the life of me why the class with the bonus is the one receiving the least exp in the above example.

It's not a penalty. It requires less exp for them to level. They receive less exp. They level faster.

[yaeger]

Yagear stated the above. I do not think it is accurate and would love a source. I don't think mobs give you a % of level i think they give you a set # of EXP points that gets modified by Zone/Race/class/#in group.

It's what this whole topic about, shared experience in a group, I just used parses to prove it.

Everyone shares exp in a group, which will level everyone at approximately the same rate. For example, a mob that give 1.25% exp to a SK, would give 1.25% exp to a rogue if they were grouped. Rogues need less exp to get that 1.25%.. so they'd get a smaller piece of the overall pie.

The shared exp in groups was designed by Verant so hybrids weren't left behind while leveling with their friends by 'borrowing' experience from group-mates to compensate for their class penalties.

[runlvlzero]

the race and class xp penalties aren't that bad for groups and dont really slow you down that much. What makes your xp awful is having people not around your level in your group.

This

In fact you could have 5 iksar/troll sk's and 1 cleric killing the same mobs as a well balanced group, but if the well balanced group varies by 8 or 10 levels or so it will be far slower.

Just be sure to keep groups around 4 levels, it gets a little looser post 50 but is pretty noticeable at 8 levels difference from lowest to highest. In my experience.

[Atmas]

What is this? Necro day?

[runlvlzero]

What is this? Necro day?

Is it really a necro if its only a 1 or 2 pages down? in in the forum threads list?

But ya sorry I suppose I posted a needless affirmation of what I consider very good information.

[shdwdrake8]

Thread still relevant imo.

[Grizzled]

Old thread i realize. As a 55 Iksar SK I did some testing. 3 hours chain killing in Karnors with a hybrid other than myself, made 1/2 a blue bubble in 3 hours. 2 hybrids other than myself, 1/10 to 1/4 blue bubble( very hard to tell what i actually got) in 3 hours. For both groups I was the highest level toon with the lowest being 3 levels below me. 3 hours in a group with me being only hybrid 1.5 blue to 2.5 blue depending on how many rogues. And these were all non stop chain killing groups. I have pretty much quit grouping with other hybrids, I will turn down these groups , its really a waste of time. The time could be more usefull factioning than exping. I can be picky, I have till luclin is released to get to 60( if they ever decide to even do luclin).

Serpator 55 Iksar Shadowknight

[Messianic]

Old thread i realize. As a 55 Iksar SK I did some testing. 3 hours chain killing in Karnors with a hybrid other than myself, made 1/2 a blue bubble in 3 hours. 2 hybrids other than myself, 1/10 to 1/4 blue bubble( very hard to tell what i actually got) in 3 hours. For both groups I was the highest level toon with the lowest being 3 levels below me. 3 hours in a group with me being only hybrid 1.5 blue to 2.5 blue depending on how many rogues. And these were all non stop chain killing groups. I have pretty much quit grouping with other hybrids, I will turn down these groups , its really a waste of time. The time could be more usefull factioning than exping. I can be picky, I have till luclin is released to get to 60( if they ever decide to even do luclin).

Serpator 55 Iksar Shadowknight

You guys have it extra bad - i'm just generally bored with EQ because of how damn long it takes to accomplish anything. I don't want to play 4 hours a day to really get any grinding done - and that's about what you need to play to get anything substantial done if you're not a chanter/cleric/rogue/tank, since groups don't come that fast. It's about to the point where I logout my characters next to their grinding spot - log for an hour, kill as much as I can, logout. God forbid you have to actually run anywhere, i.e. taking my necro from sro to OT - because my playtime is spent traveling.

It's classic, i know...

I guess when I was much younger playing EQ in 2000/2001 i didn't mind gaming 4-6 hours a day to get anything done.

[Lindalind]

I just play my hybrids anyway,still fun to play.

[Palemoon]

The real problem with this issue is the fact people are aware of it. It is absolute hell trying to get a group as a hybrid. I personally know several rangers/sk's that have quit the sever (red 99, leveling up fresh) because they got sick and tired of lfg all day and no one wanting them.

People know about this, and its effecting groups and subs (if we'd have subs, lets say players staying with the server). It was exactly when those two things started happening that Sony put an end to class penalties.

At the very least I strongly advise class penalties remain the hybrids burden to carry alone. Dont make them handicap other group members because (just like on classic) they just get rejected from groups (which is what is happening now, ive seen it myself).

It really is very frusterating, for the hybrid and for others who group with them. Its cutting both ways.

[Uthgaard]

Subscriptions were on the rise in eq before it was removed, and population on P99 has taken rises and dips consistent with content release timing and other games hitting the market. The experience penalty was in when the server hit 1500 at Kunark release. It's a nearly insignificant factor on population. The experience penalty has had no statistical correlation on subscriptions on live or player population on P99.

[Palemoon]

Subscriptions were on the rise in eq before it was removed, and population on P99 has taken rises and dips consistent with content release timing and other games hitting the market. The experience penalty was in when the server hit 1500 at Kunark release. It's a nearly insignificant factor on population. The experience penalty has had no statistical correlation on subscriptions on live or player population on P99.

I said effects groups and subs, not that overall subs were going down. I remember sitting in seb on my troll SK waiting for groups to decide if they wanted to deal with my xp penalty, or not. Back in classic.

I'm sure Im not the only one who took a break and bitched about it in feedback/forums when it all dawned on us at that time what was going on.

Then it was changed.

My point is , we are at the point in the timeline where "its all dawned on us" and it effects groups (and "subs"). I see this everyday in game, the snide comments from group members, how they are "doing me a favor" etc. Not asking for a lifting of the penalty , just that we (hybrids) carry it alone, so it dosent distrupt the social aspect of the game for us (grouping).

[jrwriter]

Yeah ive stopped playing now (QQ) because of it, main char is currently a troll SK. Even if I did get invited to a group it wouldnt be fun, I would just feel like a was screwing over the other people in the group.

Penalty is not screwing up group play what you like group will take whatever

[Baervan]

Originally I disliked the way the exp penalty for hybrids was done, (40%, no sharing with group) but I came around to the idea. I makes sense in a role playing kinda way - your class has the difficulty of mastering two professions and so levels up slower, fair enough.

However I have always loathed the way the penalties are now shared with the group. EQ for me is about grouping up with people and sharing the penalty goes a significant way to making this more unpleasant. Frequently groups will turn your class down. Other times you will get an invite but have to deal with mealy mouthed comments about the exp rate. Even in groups of friends that welcome you I feel a underlying guilt that I am holding them back. It is crazy that you essentially have to ask your friends to take a hit just to play the game together.

I can't accept the counter argument that hybrids allow groups to perform better and therefore warant the penalty. I think this argument could only be valid if it was true in the majority of cases. As anyone has played with a good bard will know, they can add a lot - and it is certainly interesting to debate what is better, an enchanter or a bard. But I don't think it can reaonably be claimed that what they can offer is so superior to an enchanter as to justify the penalty. And as for rangers (my chosen class) then well....lol

[Palemoon]

gonna edit this out to remove names.

Lets just say I was rejected recently from an xp group on account of the xp penalty i'd bring to the group. Recently as in within the last 30 mins. Its swell.

[Fazlazen]

Never had trouble finding groups as an iksar SK.

[Baervan]

Beovvulf is a known retard. Form your own groups.

spooky....

[Grizzled]

I guess I will add this because I dont think i made it clear. I get groups. I may be LFG a few hours but i do get em. And after a few session with a bard or ranger, I have just come to the conclusion if there is another hybrid , its really not worth it. I chose my penalty, and the amount of exp i need to level should be adjusted accordingly. But when i get my penalty AND someone elses penalty, it really becomes an unfruitfull experience. You can say well you and the ranger/bard are both sharing so you dont really lose anything, the exp loss from adding another hybrid tells the tale( see my previous post). Exp penalties are the way they are, i cannot help that. So I have been doing aspects of the game i never cared about on live, faction. I mean after all I have till Luclin comes out to get to 60, IF the devs ever decide to brave yet another expansion in the saga.

As for what hybrids bring to groups....
1) after 7 years on live as a bard I am bard biased. However, an Enchanter who actually puts effort into grouping out shines them.
2) ranger- I would rather have a rogue
3) SK/PAL- Warriors are great for raid tanks, a well equipped on is great in a group. however the are not the agro machines the SK/PAL are.

I guess im just in a different suit now. On live i was a bard, and even in the 50's if i couldn't get a group I would find something to swarm.Light blues suck for exp till you kill 30 at a time with some blues mixed in. I guess its just a side of the hybrids I never really saw.