Server/Classic Observations

[theguyy]

I'm pretty new to this server and a few things surprised me as a classic server, both good and bad.

The most shocking thing for me is how WoWish the community is in game.
Back in classic every group I've been in did Need before Greed and here it's the opposite. In fact, out of the dozens of groups I've joined only 1 didn't greed everything that dropped(including full guild groups). To me this is disgraceful and greed of this magnitude doesn't belong in classic EQ.

The 2nd thing that surprised me was how stable this server is. I get zone crashes but as far as the server goes it's acted nearly flawless and lag free on my end. Good job.

I was also surprised that class xp penalties sharing with groups was added. My nightly group is already starting to reject Troll/Ogre SK's just cuz of this. Hybrid tanks certainly have an advantage over Warriors for holding aggro but Bards and Rangers? I know this was classic but not everything about Classic was good or even made sense.

Lastly I like how active the developers/GM's are on the forums and in the community considering it's all volunteer work. Good job making this server happen and more importantly making it free. At first glance most people are worried about a low population but this server actually has too many people somehow. This is a good thing, too many is much better than too few.

[Flicka]

You're in the wrong groups. I've never been in a group that wasn't NBG unless it was a complete pickup group full of strangers & it was set greed from the get go. I think this was one group in 50 levels?

Your experience here isn't typical, imho. Change the ppl you are playing with if it bugs you.

[soup]

I've never seen groups not be NBG either.

[Icecometus]

You guys haven't camped a high plat item in a group yet. If you were in a group at Frenzy or Freeti you might find that the rest of the group wishes to roll on the big ticket item.

[Arclanz]

I'm a fan of NBG, but my first impression of the server was not WoW. Though I've never played WoW. I found players to be super helpful and generous. No complaints at all!! And I echo the OP's point that there is no lag !!?? incredible.

[theguyy]

Oh I have changed my groups, often. In fact, aside from the nightly group I have a different group every day.....all Greed rolling everything. The worst part is even if your the group leader you have to piss 5 other people off just to change it to NBG because chances are a few people in your group got screwed over by the last group Greeding everything. So they want to roll on everything now.

Anyone have any thoughts on shared group xp penalty? I think it's far more trouble then its worth just to remain "classic." I mean lets get real, 90% of us are not using the Classic UI right now.

[Chicka]

Ditto. It has always been need before greed in any of my groups. When it comes to big ticket items it gets a bit grey imo - that's when NBG starts to make less sense, anybody who is on those camps could probably use the cash generated to upgrade their toon in similar fashion - it isn't really greed, it's the same motivation as being at the camp to wear the item, and typically if you are in a group for the camp you need those other classes to get a shot at the item - if you don't greed those items pretty soon you'll find nobody willing to go to any camp that doesn't drop their gear.

[HippoNipple]

^^

I agree with Chicka, if you are camping a rare spawn knowing it drops something you don't need you should get a chance at the loot if it is a pug. I only think this for the upper end loot. If you are camping something for a friend this is when it changes.

If you get the item that you can't use you could easily go trade it for an equally hard item to camp that you can use. There is obviously a grey area of how good the item needs to be before everyone gets a shot at it though, and the greedy bastards fighting over a 100pp item that a group member could use is the problem.

[Arclanz]

while I am a fan of NBG, I have been converted ever so painfully over the long 10+ years of gaming. I now see both points of view and would be content with either, especially if it was consistent server-wide

A bid system would be an alternative. When a drop drops; players bid on the drop. Highest bid in the group gets the item. If someone knows a drop is worth 4k, it makes sense for them to bid at least 2k since they could double their money.

This should also prevent that bitter taste one gets when a new group member wins the rand ten minutes after arriving in camp; departing immediately thereafter.

[Overcast]

In classic EQ... I recall 'greed' being a major issue, really.

Dunno how many groups and even guilds split over just those issues. Of course, you WILL find more people who are willing to be 'good sports' in general.

Reputation - in a game where just leveling to max level is a BIG deal; means a lot more.

It's not so easy to just pop up a new alt if you have tarnished your name. I thought about that last night - perhaps one of the 'core' things that makes EQ so much better - is in fact how dang hard it is to level - you become more attached to your first main, other people in the game mean more - the names have some MEANING.

In WoW, maybe a few names of friends have meaning, but you rarely hear about people talked about like they are near legends - which I recall on EQ Classic. Some people had skill, some people had personality and others knew it.

I still remember some people from old EQ - and mostly because of their personality. You'll find more 'good' people to group with and stick with them.... That's less people for the ones with bad reps to 'use', since you already have a group.

[Dersk]

To me this is disgraceful and greed of this magnitude doesn't belong in classic EQ.

I get the feeling that if it didn't affect your loot, you wouldn't care what kind of system the group used. That's not intended as an insult or a dismissal, but that kind of outrage over a looting system has always struck me as suspicious.

It's better for a server to always be NBG than having someone swap between NBG and 'greed' groups and getting shafted in the process, true. It's more fun for someone to be able to earn and loot their own equipment than having to trade for it. This does not make people that insist on 'greed' rolls somehow less virtuous than those that demand loot rights for the items they can equip.

NBG assumes that:
a) the person needing it actually needs it as an upgrade as opposed to simply being able to use it
b) the person needing it won't sell it when a superior upgrade is obtained.
c) the person needing it will get more use out of the item than another group member will get use out of a different item obtained through trade.

A warrior with a obsidian shards that 'needs' a yak is just as greedy as the shadowknight using a brutechopper that wants to roll on a yak so he can trade it for a dark reaver or mithril two hander. Assessing need strictly on a can-equip basis is not a perfect system, and the hate for people that dare to use a different system is spawned by the very greed that is being attacked.

A particular situation that exacerbates the problems with NBG systems comes into play with Kunark and Velious where casters see several spells that can only be accessed through defeating raid targets while seeing predominately melee-oriented loot drops in groups. While this is certainly arguable, it is much easier for a melee to substitute group gear for raid gear than it is a caster to substitute for raid gear and raid spells, and NBG rolls ignore that problem because the wizard can't use the jaundiced bone bracer or whatever.

I've turned down loot rights based on NBG because it wasn't enough of an upgrade and I would have sold it rather than use it (and lost the roll). I've won greed rolls and let someone else in the group loot it because that person 'needed' it. If that makes me a greedy person because I used 'greed' rolls in those instances where I didn't want to equip something, then I have a few choice expletives I'd like you to hear.

[Arclanz]

I'm glad you reminded me. I quit mid kunark (no one was in skyfire yet). In Chardock, a shield dropped; and I got into an argument with an enchanter over it. I wanted a paladin in the group (not me) to get it. He was arguing that a shaman in his group wanted it for "resist" purposes.

As I was the multi-group leader, I dictated that the Paladin got it and also informed everyone that I was quitting EQ due to what I saw as increasing greed. I did quit, but like everyone else returned shortly thereafter. But things were never the same.

So I've come a long way to succumb to the GBN point of view.

Just like this site defines what a camp is; I think they should also define that ALL groups are greed-rolling unless the group members involved vote otherwise. In the case of ties, greed-rolling wins out.

[mmiles8]

Just like this site defines what a camp is; I think they should also define that ALL groups are greed-rolling unless the group members involved vote otherwise. In the case of ties, greed-rolling wins out.

Greetings, Arclanz. Have you seen the Hobbes' Leviathan I just got in?

[Kazzok]

A particular situation that exacerbates the problems with NBG systems comes into play with Kunark and Velious where casters see several spells that can only be accessed through defeating raid targets while seeing predominately melee-oriented loot drops in groups. While this is certainly arguable, it is much easier for a melee to substitute group gear for raid gear than it is a caster to substitute for raid gear and raid spells, and NBG rolls ignore that problem because the wizard can't use the jaundiced bone bracer or whatever.

I've turned down loot rights based on NBG because it wasn't enough of an upgrade and I would have sold it rather than use it (and lost the roll). I've won greed rolls and let someone else in the group loot it because that person 'needed' it. If that makes me a greedy person because I used 'greed' rolls in those instances where I didn't want to equip something, then I have a few choice expletives I'd like you to hear.

QFT

I was a Wizard at that time, and this is so true. I killed many dragons and many juggs for months without seeing Sunstrike. Eventually, I bought it. Buying it is sometimes the only way you're ever gonna get it. And that means you've gotta get some loot to sell.

You know, my recollection of the classic-SoV era on live was that it was very melee-oriented, so maybe that NBG thing makes sense if you're into conspiracies ;)

[Dantes]

Most groups I have been in have honored need before greed. I'm always an advocate for it, and will either voluntarily sit out of rolls on items I can't use - or roll on them and give them away to another group member if I win (if there's no other option because everyone wants to greed roll).

I don't really think need before greed stops at a certain plat value. That's kind of stupid. From the perspective of a Warrior, I can't farm plat worth a damn, but several other classes can. Paying 7k for a Yak or 15k for an FBSS is a tall order when your main is a Warrior and you can't play 40 hours a week.

If everyone did the need before greed thing, YES we would camp items that we don't need because it wouldn't take as long as it does to get what we need. What reason do I have to camp the FBSS if I already have one? I'm free at that point to tank for a group camping a caster item.

Somebody said it should be one way or the other server wide, while that's a pipe dream I sort of agree with it. You can't just change it to suit your needs. If we all embraced need before greed, we would get what we need. If we all just greed rolled and sold everything, we would all make plat and buy what we need. If we do a combination of both, expectations get set and people get disappointed.

[Mournblade]

If my group let me grab some phat lewtz that I could actually use, I would be more than happy to offer up the item that was replaced for the group to roll for. That only seems fair to me.

[mmiles8]

I don't really think need before greed stops at a certain plat value. That's kind of stupid. From the perspective of a Warrior, I can't farm plat worth a damn, but several other classes can. Paying 7k for a Yak or 15k for an FBSS is a tall order when your main is a Warrior and you can't play 40 hours a week.


There are many many ways to earn plat that don't involve killing HGs or winning rolls on loot.

Get creative, next time you feel frustrated with the amount of plat you aren't making, take the time to figure out a way to make it. Look at what people are buying, browse allakhazam/eqtraders and brainstorm, find a niche, diversify your market so that your existence does not hinge on any one thing, build on your strengths and work with others to fill out your weaknesses.

I had made 2k and mastered most tradeskills by level 16, all while helping people lower than me afford their basics and outfit themselves. I'm terrible at EC and haggling. I had others do my selling, cut them shares while I went out finding new deals and items of value. Become a part of a flow, spend some make more.

[oldhead]

I'm pretty new to this server and a few things surprised me as a classic server, both good and bad.

The most shocking thing for me is how WoWish the community is in game.
Back in classic every group I've been in did Need before Greed and here it's the opposite. In fact, out of the dozens of groups I've joined only 1 didn't greed everything that dropped(including full guild groups). To me this is disgraceful and greed of this magnitude doesn't belong in classic EQ.






Most of my classic groups were greed. Some did NBG but most were need unless a guild group. I like greed groups better for many reason that would take too long to type. To me NBG in a PUG is more greedy than Greed looting.


NBG in PUG is more WoW like to me.

[Breuce]

On my server, it seemed to progress pretty quickly kunark era from mostly NBG to FFA. And I don't think that was really a terrible move: when it comes down to it, a lot of classes get hosed in straight NBG, and this likely makes specific camps a lot harder to actually find the required classes for, etc.

Basically, I just always insisted that the loot 'rules' were set upon joining, and enforced (hopefully by myself, or somebody i trusted, but generally people seem pretty reasonable) I used to put together groups with fairly strange loot rules, but as long as they were fair and set in the beginning, people almost always played nice, and I think that's the most important part of the whole deal: If the entire group agrees on NBG rules, or whatever <i>before the mobs start dying</i>, it takes a ninja-looter to mess things up, not just somebody deciding that they deserve big_ticket_item_01 when it actually drops.

I would bet that it's almost inevitable that sometime in the kunark era, FFA will become the predominant loot model, but until then I think people just need to make sure everything is taken care of beforehand.

[theguyy]

I get the feeling that if it didn't affect your loot, you wouldn't care what kind of system the group used. That's not intended as an insult or a dismissal, but that kind of outrage over a looting system has always struck me as suspicious.

It's better for a server to always be NBG than having someone swap between NBG and 'greed' groups and getting shafted in the process, true. It's more fun for someone to be able to earn and loot their own equipment than having to trade for it. This does not make people that insist on 'greed' rolls somehow less virtuous than those that demand loot rights for the items they can equip.

NBG assumes that:
a) the person needing it actually needs it as an upgrade as opposed to simply being able to use it
b) the person needing it won't sell it when a superior upgrade is obtained.
c) the person needing it will get more use out of the item than another group member will get use out of a different item obtained through trade.

A warrior with a obsidian shards that 'needs' a yak is just as greedy as the shadowknight using a brutechopper that wants to roll on a yak so he can trade it for a dark reaver or mithril two hander. Assessing need strictly on a can-equip basis is not a perfect system, and the hate for people that dare to use a different system is spawned by the very greed that is being attacked.

A particular situation that exacerbates the problems with NBG systems comes into play with Kunark and Velious where casters see several spells that can only be accessed through defeating raid targets while seeing predominately melee-oriented loot drops in groups. While this is certainly arguable, it is much easier for a melee to substitute group gear for raid gear than it is a caster to substitute for raid gear and raid spells, and NBG rolls ignore that problem because the wizard can't use the jaundiced bone bracer or whatever.

I've turned down loot rights based on NBG because it wasn't enough of an upgrade and I would have sold it rather than use it (and lost the roll). I've won greed rolls and let someone else in the group loot it because that person 'needed' it. If that makes me a greedy person because I used 'greed' rolls in those instances where I didn't want to equip something, then I have a few choice expletives I'd like you to hear.

Gotta love people justifying their own overwhelming greed.

[Pico]

Gotta love people justifying their own overwhelming greed.

You're horrendously retarded if you can't see the logic in his post, and you honestly don't even understand what greed is. Are you 12 years old?

I've seen NBG abused so many times in Live by greedy people who didn't really need the item they were after. Yeah you can always say 'oh if you abuse the system you'll get a bad rep' but what's the point really? Rolling for items is a 100% fair system that can't be abused, and if any item worth more than 1k drops you can sure as shit bet that I'll be rolling on it.

That said, if the item is worth less than 1k or I'm playing with friends, NBG is fine by me.

[Pyrocat]

The only greed groups I've ever been in were Frenzied Ghoul / Ghoul Lord / Froglok King (only if mith 2 hander dropped), because automatically giving 10k items to one or two classes in a group discourages anyone else from joining.

[Zahasha]

Threads like this remind some of us old-time MMORPGers why we really shouldn't bother with this server/game with no built-in Need/Greed rolling system. This "I NEED that!!1" argument for an in-game item that can be sold by anybody in the group is just absurd. That FBSS that just dropped in our PuG can upgrade a heluva lot of my gear just as much as the melee that pull that self-righteous "I NEED that!!1" garbage. I'd say some selfish turd pulling the "Need" card would be much more likely to get a crappy reputation than the others in the group demanding that everybody roll for the valuable item that dropped.

Of course, as many above have said, in all-friend or guild groups NBG pretty much goes without saying. But I played more than enough years of EQ to see those "Need" kids get the FBSS by default, then be strangely "WTS FBSS 3K PP" in EC an hour later to never fall for that stuff again, and we all know lots of people on this server are 2-boxing with auction mules in EC all day and night long.

[Dersk]

Gotta love people justifying their own overwhelming greed.

Stop insisting people give you something just because you can equip it, then.

[azeth]

I currently play a magician, my wife an enc, and I guarantee I will be "greeding" on items that if sold would exponentially change my gear set.

As others have said, what does "can equip" have to do with "need before greed" ?

NBG (to me) is defined as - A player designed group mechanic to be used as a loot distribution tool. Conceptually when an item drops, players will identify whether or not they "need" it. In an NBG environment, whomever claims "need" will only be contested in a /random by whomever else claimed "need".

The issue is everyone has a different definition of need. Just because a melee class can immediately equip and utilize a drop, do they necessarily need the item more than a class who cannot? Obviously the class who cannot equip the item can sell it, therefore benefiting from the drop. The benefit from the sale is absolutely incomparable to the supposed "necessity" the class who could equip the item claimed.

If an FBSS drops and we agree it is worth 9,000pp. The 21%(right?) haste provided to whomever equips cannot be quantified in terms of usefulness to the purchase made from selling the item retail. With 9000pp I could easily deck myself out in master jewelcraft gear increasing mana pool/spell effectiveness, finish up buying costly spells... I don't need to go on.

Taken from Miriam Webster -

NEED - 1. A condition or situation in which something is required or wanted

The definition of need is inherently contradictory. I believe we all agree the definition we consider when describing "NBG" is when something is required, not just wanted.

[Breuce]

My favorite NBG abuse was the ol' "spare downgrade" trick. Sure you're a level 55 monk that's using a fighting baton in your primary... sure you are, but I'm still rolling for that jade mace. I actually remember seeing this happen regularly back in the day.

I actually used to keep some terrible gear around to mess with people like that.

"Sweet, NBG! I need that IFS?" "Weren't you swinging a T-Staff earlier?" "Naw, been using this same weapon for a long time." Soandso inspects you, sees worn great staff, lulz ensue.

Of course, karma guaranteed that I would never once win the roll after I pulled that prank. Proof that God has no sense of humor.

I mainly liked greed groups because I tend to enjoy having at least one person who can cast a spell in my groups. Call me crazy.

[astarothel]

if any item worth more than 1k drops you can sure as shit bet that I'll be rolling on it.

This.

Have seen people nbg on things like gcbs before and its ridiculous when 3k can buy a upgrade for most people in the group. It's not like any item is exceedingly rare enough to justify nbg in classic EQ, and if it is, it's usually nodrop.

[Tronjer]

Not going into argument here, but the attitude some posts show is the reason, certain classes got excluded from grouping in high-level dungeons like Sebilis, back on live. As a melee I wouldn't roll on mana items, even it might be worth 10k and I expect the same vice versa. It's frustrating if anything drops, one or two in group are desperately camping for weeks and someone wins who can't use and will sell it right away. If a particular camp doesn't have loot for your class, noone forces you to join. Simple as that.

[azeth]

If a particular camp doesn't have loot for your class, noone forces you to join. Simple as that.

I definitely do understand your perspective, but this isn't a vacuum we're talking about where camps are a matter of choice. This is a booming, expansionless server, with a ton of folks around the same level range.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to group by class specific drops in this environment. Nor do I think drop-oriented-grouping is condusive to exping.

[Aarone]

The only greed groups I've ever been in were Frenzied Ghoul / Ghoul Lord / Froglok King (only if mith 2 hander dropped), because automatically giving 10k items to one or two classes in a group discourages anyone else from joining.

What? The application of reason and logic demonstrating consistent thinking and behavior in a predictable, realistic situation, in order to solve potential problems before they arise (and promote good-will between all those involved)???

I can't believe it! ;)

[azeth]

#1 reason DKP was invented - NBG doesn't work in all situations.

[Tronjer]

This is a booming, expansionless server, with a ton of folks around the same level range.


Well, I'm still new to this server and - fortunately - far away from high level. Maybe I should avoid rushing to the top.

That being said, I can understand why people get bored and farm twink stuff, waiting for next expansion. But the situation should straighten out, once Kunark is enabled - at least for a while.

[Arclanz]

last night I saw a level 28 warrior auctioning WTS SSOY 8k. I think I'll be doing my PUG greed rolling cuz you never know who needs it and who is looking to sell it for 8k. I also saw a character in the tunnel named Traderz who con'd green to me (I'm lvl 5). Odd.

[eqholmes]

last night I saw a level 28 warrior auctioning WTS SSOY 8k. I think I'll be doing my PUG greed rolling cuz you never know who needs it and who is looking to sell it for 8k. I also saw a character in the tunnel named Traderz who con'd green to me (I'm lvl 5). Odd.

The 28 warrior was clearly a twink, also everyone makes level 1 mules to sit in EC so that mains can be camped else where, or lets be honest, there are people that 2 box and some of those level 1's have there 50's at a camp.

Now as far as NBG, ya any item that isnt worth a great deal meaning anything under 2k I don't even think to consider greed if someone needs it, but as far as a fbss/yak/mith 2hander and so on I would say greed because I have also seen to many people except a need item to only be selling it within a week. Of course of friends/guildies I ALWAYS do need, why would you greed with friends/guildies?

[Dersk]

If a particular camp doesn't have loot for your class, noone forces you to join. Simple as that.

The corollary to this is if I am forming a group for something I want, I can refuse to invite anyone else that can use it so I automatically get it due to NBG. Or, if I want an item to sell, I can refuse to invite anyone that can use it so I will have a chance to /roll on it.

I would be shocked in several ways if that never happens.

[Overcast]

Well, I'm still new to this server and - fortunately - far away from high level. Maybe I should avoid rushing to the top.

That being said, I can understand why people get bored and farm twink stuff, waiting for next expansion. But the situation should straighten out, once Kunark is enabled - at least for a while.

One thing I learned - for me personally at least, is to not bother rushing in any game. Just gets boring sooner..

So - yeah, as for me - I'm not at all in a rush.

[Breuce]

The corollary to this is if I am forming a group for something I want, I can refuse to invite anyone else that can use it so I automatically get it due to NBG. Or, if I want an item to sell, I can refuse to invite anyone that can use it so I will have a chance to /roll on it.

I would be shocked in several ways if that never happens.

Oh definitely... totally happens. I really think the only solution to any of these issues is just to make sure people always are explicit up front with loot rules. A server-wide 'default' would be nice perhaps, but I'm not sure that making it official and enforcing it would be in the spirit of the server, at least the spirit of the server as I personally want it... which is of course all I care about ;P

Besides, it's virtually impossible to have anything other than pure greed, everybody rolls on everything, become the default... due to the fact that it's basically impossible to adequately define 'need,' and basically impossible to catch people abusing the system.

a NBG default fairly quickly gave way to a pure greed default as more people levelled into the 50s in Kunark, and despite it taking me about 9 rolls to get my first FBSS (damn necros kept winning!) and seeing wu-sticks and jade maces slip through my fingers over and over again, I think it was quite clearly for the best.

Side note: fun ethical dilemma here. Saw a necro win a FBSS, then he either ran a mule or had a friend run down to pick it up, so he could try to win the next one as well. Granted, it didn't end up mattering that night and it seems shady, but it also seems strange that an item being lore completely changes loot rules.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Heh drop that necro... that's not shady it's idiocy.

[Reiker]

#1 reason DKP was invented - NBG doesn't work in all situations.

Way to compare apples to oranges. DKP is stupid as fuck.

[azeth]

Way to compare apples to oranges. DKP is stupid as fuck.

ya systems that reward you based on work/time served are awful..

also, i did not compare *anything to DKP. I was just citing a gamewide loot distribution method that was introduced to the guild raid environment to avoid "i need it more" complaints.

[Reiker]

A system where a ranger can hoard points to buy a Blade of War instead of a Warrior is awful. DKP serves individual players and hinders the guild as a whole. I won't ever join a guild that uses DKP because that's just a huge declaration of "we want to lose!"

[Qaedain]

DKP works fine if you're not retarded and set it up so there are class restrictions on certain items, backed by an officer-run "don't be a dumbass" veto.

[Reiker]

But at that point, you might as well run off merit loot.

[mimixownzall]

But at that point, you might as well run off merit loot.

Do you even know what DKP stands for and what it involves?

[Reiker]

Nah dude. I've been playing EQ and been part of the raid game since 1999 and I have no idea what DKP means. You got me, bro.

[mimixownzall]

Every DKP system I have used has worked like this:

A. Guild/loot/whatever leader decides what class it is best for.
B. DKP is referenced and person on top of chosen class is asked if he wants it. If no, next person asked, ect. Each item has a specific value.

I have known guilds who use bidding or even silent bidding, but that causes other issues I don't have time to discuss.

I have never been in a raiding guild where loot is thrown out based strictly on who is highest on list. If this were true, then you would have people buying up stuff that is tradeable so they can sell it or give to their twinks; if your guild does this, then, well, they are idiots and you can only blame yourself for seeing rangers getting loot clearly intended for warriors by continuing to stay in said guild.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Heck, I didn't use dkp I just chose who got what loot on open raids for a solid 2 yrs... no complaints. Just takes fairness and integrity.

That being said, there aren't that many ideal situations.... dkp seems to work for the ruck.

[Reiker]

Every DKP system I have used has worked like this:

A. Guild/loot/whatever leader decides what class it is best for.
B. DKP is referenced and person on top of chosen class is asked if he wants it. If no, next person asked, ect. Each item has a specific value.

I have known guilds who use bidding or even silent bidding, but that causes other issues I don't have time to discuss.

I have never been in a raiding guild where loot is thrown out based strictly on who is highest on list. If this were true, then you would have people buying up stuff that is tradeable so they can sell it or give to their twinks; if your guild does this, then, well, they are idiots and you can only blame yourself for seeing rangers getting loot clearly intended for warriors by continuing to stay in said guild.

Okay, so you agree with me. And as I was saying before, this still has flaws that merit loot clears up. Say you have Warrior A with 88% attendance and Warrior B with 42% attendance. Warrior B saves up his DKP for 2 expansions and buys a DBOTW. Awesome!

Just go merit.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I agree, but that is ideal, not realistic. Greed and selfishness is much more common, even in guilds of 'friends'. More often then not, those with more time played in this game are rewarded for that time.. You don't have to be able to solve quadratic equations to get gear...just raid alot...play alot. And who is to say you don't deserve loot if you attend every raid? And howdo you decide between equal play from equal players?

I agree with you, don't get me wrong, but there are far too many unscrupulous characters who would abuse merit as well, I would bet on greed and character flaws in this game over honor and integrity any day of the week.

And even then, there is always a gray area, or, even if you got it perfect...people who wouldn't agree for a myriad of reasons.

I always perferred seniority, and loot decided by honorable men. Hard to find that, so dkp becomes the lesser of 2 evils, and something to placate the masses. The perfect system is hard to use, because trying to fill a raid of unselfish people... hard to do.

[mimixownzall]

Ok, so your merit system is based off of attendance, right? Doesn't DKP, in essence, distribute out points based on participation?

They are basically the same thing.

If someone wants to pass up 2 expansions worth of loot in order to get one specific item, that is his choice; meanwhile, everyone else is gearing up.

Calling the DKP system is, as a whole, completely stupid based on one or two unlikely (yet not impossible) examples is, in itself, asinine. Any system can be abused, even a merit system.

My most successful system was basically a merit system. We had a loot council that based loot distribution on attendance, attitude, work ethic ect.

DKP is still a viable way to distribute loot.

[Qaedain]

Most good DKP systems also reset with tiers or expansions, so people can't bank and fuck over the people who spent their points to benefit the raid.

[makoho]

Most good DKP systems also reset with tiers or expansions, so people can't bank and fuck over the people who spent their points to benefit the raid.

i often saw DKP divided by some amount at such times.

[Reiker]

Ok, so your merit system is based off of attendance, right? Doesn't DKP, in essence, distribute out points based on participation?

They are basically the same thing.

If someone wants to pass up 2 expansions worth of loot in order to get one specific item, that is his choice; meanwhile, everyone else is gearing up.

Calling the DKP system is, as a whole, completely stupid based on one or two unlikely (yet not impossible) examples is, in itself, asinine. Any system can be abused, even a merit system.

My most successful system was basically a merit system. We had a loot council that based loot distribution on attendance, attitude, work ethic ect.

DKP is still a viable way to distribute loot.

Merit is a lot more flexible. It's not just "I saved the most points and I'm the right class so I can get any loot I want." Merit allows you to reward loot to the specific players that benefit the guild as a whole. I've even seen players denied loot for passing on everything for months to try to get 1 super item. As long as you have competent leadership, one person or a council rewarding loot is always going to end up with a stronger raid force than any sort of point-based system.

[theguyy]

You're horrendously retarded if you can't see the logic in his post, and you honestly don't even understand what greed is. Are you 12 years old?

I've seen NBG abused so many times in Live by greedy people who didn't really need the item they were after. Yeah you can always say 'oh if you abuse the system you'll get a bad rep' but what's the point really? Rolling for items is a 100% fair system that can't be abused, and if any item worth more than 1k drops you can sure as shit bet that I'll be rolling on it.

That said, if the item is worth less than 1k or I'm playing with friends, NBG is fine by me.

Lol Irony at it's very best. You e-rage about my statement about justifying greed then continue to banter on justifying greed. Hmmm NBG being abused more then Greed? Not a snowballs chance in hell. Hey guys Spell: Sunstrike dropped......sorry wizzies we are greeding this. Sounds fair to me.

Can you imagine a raid letting a rogue roll on a 2 hander just for the sake of fairness? It makes no more sense to do this in a group setting.

[stormlord]

I've never been in a group that was GBN unless everyone agreed about it. Same for NBG. If you're complaining that tells me you don't know how to be a leader and how to engage and manage a group. If you feel NBG is important than you must bring this up with your group. Quit the group if you feel you're not being listened to, but I've never met a group of people who couldn't compromise or listen. If you can't find a middle ground, it's equally your fault for not giving good impressions. Don't be afraid to draw a line - to set the rules. Confront it.

If someone is a **** and ninja loots it, then let everyone on the server know.

Sorry, this sounds to me like someone who didn't speak up or didn't communicate well and then was the unwilling victim of a greed loot. Then they yelled and screamed and came here. Like I said, and i'm honest about this, i've never been in a group that couldn't compromise or listen. Never. This person is probably partly to blame for their experience.

Communication is so important to prevent mishaps like this. People need to talk and not hold their feelings to themselves. A good group exchanges information and sets up the ground rules early.

Know what else? People expect rewards for playing. Of course they want an item for an upgrade or to sell it. That's how this game and others work. Greed is a natural element of gameplay. It helps to motivate us. It gets out of control when the rules are skewed or disorderly. Blaming greed is a scapegoat. Blame the lack of leadership. The lack of communication and rules that everyday people understand. That's the culprit.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

try getting a cleric to join the fbss camp with no chance of winning one.. lol

[stormlord]

Merit is a lot more flexible. It's not just "I saved the most points and I'm the right class so I can get any loot I want." Merit allows you to reward loot to the specific players that benefit the guild as a whole. I've even seen players denied loot for passing on everything for months to try to get 1 super item. As long as you have competent leadership, one person or a council rewarding loot is always going to end up with a stronger raid force than any sort of point-based system.

Reiker, you can combine the best of what numbers offer with the advantages of human wisdom. What we did was kept track of attendance points, but the actual determination also accounted for other factors, like leadership, attitude, and so on. I think a combination is best. (Points are not the enemy.)

I was in a raid guild earlier this year on live and i was impressed how organized and professional they were about everything, including loot. It was eye opening for me. A few of the fights were probably the most wild and rewarding things i've EVER done in EQ. A lot of that is due to the devotion the guild had for the activities. It added meaning to what we were doing and we could trust it. It was a thrilling experience and taught me that raid guilds are probably, on average, the most coordinated and commited guilds in EQ. I had been a grouper for all my life before that point. I swear group guilds are great bunches of people who deserve a lot of respect, but I simply cannot compare the group guilds i've been in to the raid guild. Very little comparison. One was casual and friendly, but it didn't have the determination and professionalism that the other one had.

It didn't have a website, either. Lol. Or DKP. Or a really cool website feature where we could login and browse all of the raids and the attendees and the loots that were allotted. On and on.

I don't think people understand how much time it takes to build a loot system and to manage it. In the guild I was in, it was practically a part-time job. The people who did it hardly got a chance to play so they only did it periodically rather than long term. Kind of like shifts. Imagine if you sacrificed half of your time playing EQ to do guild activities instead? Would you do that? Somehow, people do. They do it for a lot of reasons.

It makes me feel sorry for the less organized, less able guilds, but ... to each his own. I mean, it's not like there's anything wrong with being a grouper or playing casually. It's a style of play. It deserves respect. Not everyone can devote enough time to play hard. Not everyone likes to play hard, even if they do have time for it. People are different and the game has a diverse array of content (thankfully).

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

wait, the raid guild didnt have website, or dkp?

[stormlord]

wait, the raid guild didnt have website, or dkp?

You misread. The group-based guild didn't have a website or dkp or all of the other management matters that the raid guild attended to. It's like night and day. It worked to the raid guilds advantage.

And look, I'm not taking a shot at group guilds. I quit playing after 2 months because raiding was taxing my time, but I think people who play well and put in the extra effort deserve credit for it. That's all.

I do take the issue personally when someone thinks that raid guilds don't earn their weight. I saw it before my eyes how much effort they put into it and how organized they were. No one can take that experience away from me. No one can make me forget the win we had in the last raid before I left. Raid guilds will always gain my respect, but I've always been a grouper, and know where they're coming from. I respect them too.

[Dersk]

Hey guys Spell: Sunstrike dropped......sorry wizzies we are greeding this. Sounds fair to me.

Can you imagine a raid letting a rogue roll on a 2 hander just for the sake of fairness? It makes no more sense to do this in a group setting.

So, according to your original post, 'greed' rolls that you're seeing in your groups are a horrible thing that are a blight upon the game, but to respond to critics you'll use what-ifs in raids that don't actually happen. Classy.

What piece of loot dropped that you thought you were entitled to that you didn't get? You sound like a butthurt warrior that didn't get his uB3r proccing weapon.

[Pico]

Lol Irony at it's very best. You e-rage about my statement about justifying greed then continue to banter on justifying greed. Hmmm NBG being abused more then Greed? Not a snowballs chance in hell. Hey guys Spell: Sunstrike dropped......sorry wizzies we are greeding this. Sounds fair to me.

Can you imagine a raid letting a rogue roll on a 2 hander just for the sake of fairness? It makes no more sense to do this in a group setting.

Greed is wanting excessive amounts or more than your fair share.

Please. Explain to me how wanting 1/6th of the loot you see drop (in the long run) is greedy. I dare you.

Hint: it's not possible.

[Bubbles]

I mainly liked greed groups because I tend to enjoy having at least one person who can cast a spell in my groups. Call me crazy.

This made me laugh, and yeah, it's also very, very true.