NPC melee fix(ed?)

[Tollen]

anyone got some reports back on how npc melee is now? for those of us at work and cant play tell tonight

[EliteJackson]

I'm curious as well but I'm stoked to see it was tweaked.

[Aeolwind]

If you are having issues with this tonight when you get home, post your log file combat snippets at the thread listed below
VVVVVVVVVV
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1131
^^^^^^^^^

Only post in this thread we are talking now if you are experiencing no problems & are pleased with the change or think mobs should hit a bit more frequently than they do post change.

[NotInventedHere]

Well, as a level 17 monk I can now solo "risky" dark blue cons without having full life and mend up, so it seems to be working for me.

[Aeolwind]

Well, as a level 17 monk I can now solo "risky" dark blue cons without having full life and mend up, so it seems to be working for me.

Now, here is the question, is it too easy, a touch tough or "just right".

[Tollen]

now I wish I had /log on before the change so I could compare.

thanks for the info Aeo, and NotInventedHere that gives me hope.

[NotInventedHere]

Now, here is the question, is it too easy, a touch tough or "just right".

Well, from the handful of mobs I've fought so far they seem to, on average, do about 1-2 bubbles of damage to me. This seems to me to be about what it was like in the old days, but that's just anecdotal.

[Aeolwind]

a 50 ogre warrior, in "normal" gear vs a 37 zol gets taken to ~35-40% life. That same warrior gets owned by a BTG.

Before the change, that 50 warrior would be dead and the zol would be at roughly ~50% life.

[Reiker]

Yeah this is waaaay better Aeolwind. Definitely feeling more like live but not broken, but obviously haven't had a ton of time to test it (and I play a mage). But, a mob half my level actually missed me a few times, and a brown bear couldn't even hit me, which is nice.

[Aeolwind]

The change I made was fairly drastic and I have some tweak room still. I'm still looking for my old parses, I'd found conclusive information on hit rates way back when but I can't find them now. I'm betting they are on my old PC Cowboy2, but omg the noises it makes.

[girth]

I hopped on and killed a dark blue con aviak in SK. I was full hp, the fight ended with me winning but having like 2% health left. I did not use Mend.

The fact that my monk could even solo 1 dark blue con means something has changed big time. Although I did not record one dodge or block during the fight, it does seem much better in that I don't get ROFLstomped every time I try to solo a dark blue.

[Myrkskog]

Thanks for being so vigilant on the issue, its really appreciated.

[Kantan]

I hopped on and killed a dark blue con aviak in SK. I was full hp, the fight ended with me winning but having like 2% health left. I did not use Mend.

The fact that my monk could even solo 1 dark blue con means something has changed big time. Although I did not record one dodge or block during the fight, it does seem much better in that I don't get ROFLstomped every time I try to solo a dark blue.

Well you lived so I have to agree, that it is better. I think it has to do with the old classic monk AC calculation and this being the titanium edition.

I tried to look on the old boards for the post I made about it. Had some quotes from Abashi but the boards are not available. Way later they nerfed monk ac and block. We need to somehow unerf it.

[Aeolwind]

Well you lived so I have to agree, that it is better. I think it has to do with the old classic monk AC calculation and this being the titanium edition.

I tried to look on the old boards for the post I made about it. Had some quotes from Abashi but the boards are not available. Way later they nerfed monk ac and block. We need to somehow unerf it.

We checked through the code, block and AC calculations are done equally for all classes. So, there is nothing to un-nerf. IE 900 ac on a warrior is the same as 900ac on a cleric or (holy crap tank) 900ac wizard.

The defensive skills not firing correctly has me puzzled. Rogean has more experience poking around, but the seem to fire for other classes, just not monk.

[guineapig]

We checked through the code, block and AC calculations are done equally for all classes. So, there is nothing to un-nerf. IE 900 ac on a warrior is the same as 900ac on a cleric or (holy crap tank) 900ac wizard.

The defensive skills not firing correctly has me puzzled. Rogean has more experience poking around, but the seem to fire for other classes, just not monk.

This is not how it should be. Wizards and monks have completely different AC soft caps than warriors or clerics.

There are separate soft caps for plate, chain, leather and cloth and hence AC should only be calculated the same until a soft cap is hit, then it starts changing drastically. 900AC for example is way beyond all soft caps in classic.

[stormlord]

a 50 ogre warrior, in "normal" gear vs a 37 zol gets taken to ~35-40% life. That same warrior gets owned by a BTG.

Before the change, that 50 warrior would be dead and the zol would be at roughly ~50% life.

Depends what the level 37 zol is (is that a named?), but that seems a bit harsh. Hopefully this new change is accomodating but doesn't break any rules. If anything, getting owned at 50 by a level 37 sounds like that would break some rules...

I played earlier and noticed the change, but my druid was still getting pounded plenty hard by a yellow con mob even though he's geared up in patchwork leather (which is pretty good for his level).

[Haynar]

This is not how it should be. Wizards and monks have completely different AC soft caps than warriors or clerics.

There are separate soft caps for plate, chain, leather and cloth and hence AC should only be calculated the same until a soft cap is hit, then it starts changing drastically. 900AC for example is way beyond all soft caps in classic.
Programming different mitigation schemes based on type of armor being worn is extremely difficult. Especially since the chain and cloth armor wearers tend to not have very much parse data from days old.

Maybe if the wizards and mages would tank more, and get us a ton of parses, a better job could be done.

Silly mages...

Sometimes programming to be exactly like live is easy to say, but not always easy to do.

Haynar

[stormlord]

The change I made was fairly drastic and I have some tweak room still. I'm still looking for my old parses, I'd found conclusive information on hit rates way back when but I can't find them now. I'm betting they are on my old PC Cowboy2, but omg the noises it makes.

Gl on finding them and thanks for all the work you're doing. A change to melee will help to bring some people back who left because of it.

[Cribanox]

for my 11 ranger dodge is working, but Im not sure how often it's actually supposed to happen. I can solo much better now at 11 with Med and Melee working much better. I appreciate the hard work!

[messiah_b]

Depends what the level 37 zol is (is that a named?), but that seems a bit harsh. Hopefully this new change is accomodating but doesn't break any rules. If anything, getting owned at 50 by a level 37 sounds like that would break some rules...

I played earlier and noticed the change, but my druid was still getting pounded plenty hard by a yellow con mob even though he's geared up in patchwork leather (which is pretty good for his level).


-zol is not named.
-There are no rules to break.
-Reading comprehension: before patch warrior dead - zol 50%, after patch zol dead - warrior 40%
-Your druid should be getting pounded like a telephone pole at a New Deal work program to a yellow especially in PW. Edit: Unless you are like lvl 2 in which case you shouldn't be posting about it anyways it isn't relevant.

[Kantan]

We checked through the code, block and AC calculations are done equally for all classes. So, there is nothing to un-nerf. IE 900 ac on a warrior is the same as 900ac on a cleric or (holy crap tank) 900ac wizard.

The defensive skills not firing correctly has me puzzled. Rogean has more experience poking around, but the seem to fire for other classes, just not monk.



Monks have a different AC multiplier and cap than other classes also block should work much more frequently than it currently does. I'll see if I can find the abashi comments.

[Aeolwind]

That should not be the case. Monk and warrior had same AC softcap, and with the advent of all the ALL/ALL Gear in velious, monks could tank as well as warriors. At that point is when they invented plate AC, Cloth AC, Leather AC, and Chain AC and broke it down. So monks and druids mitigated the same, and clerics and warriors mitigated the same, etc.

Before, they were all equal, they just controlled the amount of AC available by controlling classes. When all that lucious TOV ALL/ALL stuff came into play, it went foul. 5ac of cloth was the same as 5ac of bronze.

[Tenudil]

Haven't had enought time to get significant parses, but from what I have seen, it looks pretty good overall. Hit rates seem to be pretty close to what i would expect on green through even con mobs without having all the avoidance skills yet. Higher con mobs might actually be missing more then they should right now.


This is not how it should be. Wizards and monks have completely different AC soft caps than warriors or clerics.

There are separate soft caps for plate, chain, leather and cloth and hence AC should only be calculated the same until a soft cap is hit, then it starts changing drastically. 900AC for example is way beyond all soft caps in classic.

I doubt those existed in the forms you are familiar with in classic, if they existed at all then. They were likely introduced in the Kunark expansion and involved the actual total raw AC of the items before being equipped. IE not based on the AC value shown by the client.

Just posting this to show that they aren't likely to get met anytime soon here anyway.
Cloth..........= ~75 worn AC
Leather......= ~100 worn AC
Monk..........= ~120 worn AC
Chain.........= ~200 worn AC
Plate .........= ~300 worn AC

I did find an interesting post from a pre PoP parse that was actually made by SOE when dealing with the monk nerf. It is obviously from the Luclin era and involved lvl 51's and lvl 60's fighting mobs 3 to 4 levels lower, but you might find some use from it.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11039&highlight=monk+nerf

Class War Pal Mnk
Level 51 51 51
Raw Item AC 184 181 107
Agility 157 144 169
Dodge 3.4% 3.1% 4.4%
Block 0 % 0% 10.2%
Riposte 4.4% 3.9% 4.1%
Parry 5.2% 4.6% 0%
Skill Evasion 12.9% 11.5% 18.7%
Hit Rate 61.2% 61.3% 58.2%
Avg Hit 72.6 72.9 74.6
% Hits for Max 10.2% 10.5% 11.5%
Avg Dmg / Round 59.7 61.1 54.5
DPS 28.2 28.8 25.7


Class War Pal Mnk
Level 60 60 60
Raw Item AC 296 281 163
Agility 177 152 187
Dodge 4.3% 3.9% 4.9%
Block 0 % 0% 11.4%
Riposte 4.8% 4.3% 4.5%
Parry 5.8% 5.2% 0%
Skill Evasion 14.9% 13.4% 20.8%
Hit Rate 59.4% 59.7% 59.3%
Avg Hit 107.3 109.9 113.6
% Hits for Max 10.4% 11.7% 13.6%
Avg Dmg / Round 87.4 91.7 86.1
DPS 50.8 53.3 50

[Haynar]

I thought all classes with same worn (not item) AC mitigated equally until either SoL or PoP. Then they had the great monk nerf, cuz monks of same AC, with their higher avoidance, were the best tanks. Then they got nerfed into oblivion. Then sometime later they got restored to be almost as good as they were. But nowhere near as good as they were in Velious.

Haynar

[Kantan]

Whats the calcl. For ac per pt of agility? Is it the same across the board? Maybe the damage problem with isolated to block and the extra 10% avoidance.

[Halladar]

Look I don't have any parses, but when I first started pre-kunark there wasn't all these jokes about rangers dying quickly. They took hits it seems to me as well as any other melee. Warriors were preferred because they had more hp's, and their gear had better stats for tanking (AC, hp's, etc.) And they held aggro much better than pallies and sk's did then.

Pallies had problems holding aggro because they couldn't dual wield, and didn't do much damage. At the time taunt worked better, but aggro was a weird thing.

Fast weapons with procs were what let you get and hold aggro.

Pallies really didn't start using spells to get aggro till Kunark. Before that most hybrids didn't use their mana much in groups. That is a statement of things as I remember it. SK's didn't do much other than toss a few taps if their hp's were low at the end, or snare if no one else could.

I'm not sure when the delay thing happened but it used to be that it spellcasting delayed a swing for hybrids, so they usually didn't cast in combat because they lost dps. They changed it later so that it kind of didn't interfere as much. (ex say your weapon was a 40 delay and you cast a 25 delay spell. Your spell time could be contained in the weapon delay time, so you didn't lose an attack.) That was just for hybrids though.

Basically until Kunark at least what separated a caster from a melee were the skills like parry, riposte, and much higher dodge caps that let them evade more hits. And higher hp's and gear that had higher ac.

[Halladar]

Just wanted to add, in 1999 two handed damage sucked. They changed the main hand damage bonus later to give the high delay weapons more viability.

That main hand bonus made some funky problems for verant.

Which I guess you intend to duplicate with the moss covered twig/branch thing.

[Halladar]

Aggro was an odd thing back then. Maybe it still is.

Just another addendum. If you doubt me look at the old Paladins of Norrath or steelwarrior boards from that time.

A yak would hold better aggro than a 2 hander with a better ratio. The Electrum Bladed Wakizashi was good for that too.

More fast swings, just gave you more aggro somehow, independently of the main hand bonus that made some low delay weapons so much freakishly better than weapons with a higher ratio.

[Zarniwooop]

Anything was better.

I recall soloing fairly easily on dark blues way back. Not like a joke at all, but one mob wasn't a serious danger unless it was yellow.

[lr672931]

"Look I don't have any parses, but when I first started pre-kunark there wasn't all these jokes about rangers dying quickly." - Halladar

I was a ranger in 1999 and rangers were the bottom of every joke..at least on Quellious >< Or maybe it was just me! Either way rangers used to be pansies in 1999, they slowly found their niche later on though.

Anyways, I definitely seem to tank a bit better after the patch. Whether it's where it is supposed to be i dont know. However, taunt never works for me. As stated above i was a ranger back in the day and didn't switch to a warrior till PoP days.. so I don't have classic taunt experience to compare it to. Was it really this bad back then?

Seems to be that the only mobs that i can succesfully taunt if i'm lucky, are light blue or green.

wtb AE taunt or provoke/intice(sp?)

-Yopie 27 war.

[Halladar]

I don't remember it starting until kunark when the ranger defense cap was something like 215 or 220.

Paladins and sk's had tanking woes in kunark too, but it got to be common to use spells for aggro then as well.

[messiah_b]

The origin of the Ranger joke thing was from classic. It comes down to their skill sets and skill caps which didn't give them place in the group that couldn't easily be filled better by other classes.

If you want melee dps, rangers certainly had the skills to have high dps. Dual-wield, double-atk, combined with high dexterity and something like double yakks made them dps machines. Big problem was that they were paper thin and didn't have any aggro or dmg mitigation. Their dodge / parry / riposte skills were laughably low capped and they were given taunt instead of evade.

Anyone remember seeing this scenario...

Mob gets ~40%

*Ranger snare
*quad proc - yak proc, quad proc, quad proc - yak proc
*has aggro and starts to get chain stunned
*Warrior presumably fails taunt and cleric's heal goes off on a dead body.
*Everyone looks around wondering wtc just happened

Results are either
a) You have a ranger laced for dps, but you encounter the scenario above. Even if the ranger doesn't die he will take enough dmg in short duration to be a drain on the healers.
b) You have a ranger along for snares / off heals but a Druid was 10x better.

Edit: To the point above about taking hits as well as melee, they did okay. Certainly not as well as the plate classes or monks (due to skill caps). They took hits as well as rogues but rogues shouldn't have aggro for more than 5 seconds after a backstab.

[Halladar]

Just did some googling to try and find a list for all classes of skill caps pre-kunark.

Didn't find much, but looking through the links a lot of changes have been made over the years. Probably someone at the safe house or steel warrior or something has it all in their heads or on a computer.

But this server uses something. So maybe the devs could put up a skill cap list. Or we could ask people in game that have maxxed the skill what the cap is, and put it up on a thread.

[Aeolwind]

Here is one for mage

http://www.magecompendium.com/skill-cap-library.html

There is one site that has them all that I based most of the skill cap levels on. But I can't find it. Will have to check my notes at home, someone can search the old forums as well, no access at work. The links should be there.

[Aeolwind]

Here are the skill caps for level 75 http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=15392

[messiah_b]

I think this one still has classic values for the pre-50 section. All of the levels at which the skills are attained I verified against a pre-kunark site.

http://www.eqthieves.com/class-ranger-skills.htm

compare this to a monk's defensive skills

http://www.eqthieves.com/class-monk-skills.htm


Although maybe not. Rogue's did have evade didn't they? I don't see it on some skill lists.

[Aeolwind]

Bam, my search fu is strong.

http://www.eqthieves.com/class-ranger-skills.htm

replace ranger with whatever class you are looking for. Some are wrong, but you can get a general idea looking at all of them.

Since a few of my other fixes (Like ZEM's) were lost, I'm going to double check these over the weekend and make sure they all stuck.

[Elerion]

Evade = Hide. It's not a separate skill.

[messiah_b]

Bam, my search fu is strong.

Quoting failure :cool:

[Aeolwind]

Quoting failure :cool:

Only reason you beat me to the poll is cause my phone rang :mad:

[guineapig]

I would just like to add how much fun I'm having doing/reviewing research with you guys and helping the admins troubleshoot and find tweaks. :D

[Halladar]

I had found that eqthieves site, but didn't mention it because of some of the oddities.

Like Ranger defense post 50 going to 255 while warriors were capped at 252.

I don't know enough to post knowledgeably on the history of some of this stuff. But I do remember Pallies and SK's were on a different melee damage when kunark came out. Warriors had a different one, and monks had yet another.

Plus at some point warriors got that thing where the max hit (di/db stuff) was shifted for them.

I don't think this was the case pre-kunark.

Anyway I sent a tell to a 48 paladin in game (thanks Barthorn).

He said his skills were:

Dodge 125
Parry 175
Riposte 175
Defense 210

which is the same as the eqthieves site.

If the eqthieves site has skill caps the same as what we have on this server it will be for Rangers:

Dodge 137
Parry 185
Riposte 150
Defense 200

I haven't tested it here, but I seem to remember that 1 def = 5 ac. If that is true top end Rangers will be -50 ac to true tank classes. Plus most of the gear they can wear has less ac. I don't think lower riposte caps would make that much of a difference.

Basically unless the mitigation tables are different for different classes, or soft/hard cap ac stuff is in, I'd think a ranger is fine in the tank role for most stuff except things like ghoul lord or raids.

Which is the way I think it ought to work honestly.

But I haven't grouped with any high level rangers on this server, so I have no idea how it actually plays out.

[messiah_b]

I agree that on paper it doesn't look so terrible, but the problem had to do with the synergy that the multiple effects created on each other and the group. If you take 25% more damage that is a lot more heals that have to be dished out. Since they have lower hp's it's not as efficient to cheal and they have nothing special to bring to a group...the list goes on and on.

These are complete estimate numbers, but I think it illustrates the point.

Paladin: 5% less skills, same ac, 5% less hps, + LOH = not as good a tank as warrior but probably better whenever LOH is up.
Ranger: 5% less skills than warrior, 10% less ac, 10% less hps = just a really bad tank.

[Danth]

It's a safe assumption that if you have a Ranger tanking, it's because a Warrior, Paladin, or Shadow Knight cannot be found. The question, then, isn't so much how a Ranger compares to the above, but rather how it tanks compared to that Druid or Wizard. For that purpose Rangers can be rated adequate, if just.

Danth

[stormlord]

I parsed my naked level 6 monk before and after the patch and this is what I got:

Before:
240 total checks: 184 hits, 48 misses, 8 dodges (me);
After:
290 total checks: 181 hits, 102 misses, 7 dodges (me);

Btw, this was me idling next to a decaying skeleton (face to face).

Essentially:
Hit % went from 76.6% to 62.4%...
Miss % went from 20% to 35.1%...
Dodge went from 3.3% to 2.4%...


First thing I gather from this is that mobs aren't hitting me as often now. The second thing I gather from this is that with more parses my dodge % will probably be similar to what it was before. However, it might be that I'm only dodging hits (rather than misses), and that's why I'm dodging less than before (because I'm getting hit less). Assuming this is the case, dodge fires in about 4% of hits.

Does anyone know if dodge % goes up as you improve the dodge skill, or does it only allow you to dodge against higher level mobs?

[Halladar]

I haven't tested it here, but I seem to remember that 1 def = 5 ac.

Hmmm this can't possibly be right. It is more than one but my memory is definitely faulty.

I don't think I heard of anyone cracking 1000 AC before kunark. Maybe even velious. I'm not sure what best gear was, but I'd bet it was full indicolite, with stuff like Naggy's cloak in the other spots.

Anyway too much time has gone by. What it seems like I remember may not have been the way it was.

[EliteJackson]

Anyway too much time has gone by. What it seems like I remember may not have been the way it was.

The story of life after 30.

[Tenudil]

First thing I gather from this is that mobs aren't hitting me as often now. The second thing I gather from this is that with more parses my dodge % will probably be similar to what it was before. However, it might be that I'm only dodging hits (rather than misses), and that's why I'm dodging less than before (because I'm getting hit less). Assuming this is the case, dodge fires in about 4% of hits.

Does anyone know if dodge % goes up as you improve the dodge skill, or does it only allow you to dodge against higher level mobs?

You are correct, the dodge rate going down is due to how avoidance checks are calculated after the check for an actual hit or miss. On live the skill avoidance checks are calculated first and then if they fail another check is made to see if it is a hit or miss.

Dodge % does go up as the skill improves.


AC is comprised of both a mitigation and avoidance component.

Avoidance = (AGI T from table) + trunc(Defense * 16/9), never less than 0
Caster Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/3) + trunc(Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Anyone else's Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/4) + trunc(Defense/3) + trunc(Equipment * 4/3)
Displayed AC = trunc( (Avoidance + Mitigation) * 1000 / 847 )

I think monks get a bonus of lvl+5 added to their equipment ac value

So a non caster gets roughly 2.5 of displayed AC from each point of defense.


As to the War vs Pal/Shd vs Rng debate, you also have to rememeber how many people were still running around in stat gear at the time. The plate classes that maximized AC in combination with higher avoidance skills and Defense caps tended to tank significantly better then the chain classes and even other plate classes that went the STR/DEX/AGI route.

[Tenudil]

Evade = Hide. It's not a separate skill.

Evade isn't actually a skill but the ability was not present in hide until Feb 2000.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000217a.html

A new rogue-specific ability has been added to the "Hide" skill. It is called "Evade". This skill has the effect of lowering the amount that the targeted NPC hates the rogue, and has the potential of making the engaged NPC switch to another target (preferably a tank) within the rogue's group. It is essentially a "reverse taunt". This ability helps mitigate the negative effects of the rogue's exceedingly high damage-output potential. It also will in-turn help the rogue do even more damage as the NPC is much more likely to expose its back. It is engaged by targeting the NPC you wish to "Evade" and pressing the "Hide" button. As a note, you must not be in combat mode in order to use this ability.


There was a reason that every rogue didnt tend use things like an SBD in 99', and that 12/22 dagger would be useless unless he wanted to commit suicide. It also is likely helping to raise the DPS of entire raids by stacking hate on tanks, assuming its in and working correctly.

[Halladar]

You are correct, the dodge rate going down is due to how avoidance checks are calculated after the check for an actual hit or miss. On live the skill avoidance checks are calculated first and then if they fail another check is made to see if it is a hit or miss.

Dodge % does go up as the skill improves.


AC is comprised of both a mitigation and avoidance component.

Avoidance = (AGI T from table) + trunc(Defense * 16/9), never less than 0
Caster Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/3) + trunc(Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Anyone else's Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/4) + trunc(Defense/3) + trunc(Equipment * 4/3)
Displayed AC = trunc( (Avoidance + Mitigation) * 1000 / 847 )

I think monks get a bonus of lvl+5 added to their equipment ac value

So a non caster gets roughly 2.5 of displayed AC from each point of defense.


As to the War vs Pal/Shd vs Rng debate, you also have to rememeber how many people were still running around in stat gear at the time. The plate classes that maximized AC in combination with higher avoidance skills and Defense caps tended to tank significantly better then the chain classes and even other plate classes that went the STR/DEX/AGI route.

I find this very interesting. But what is the definition of the trunc function?

[messiah_b]

Truncate to an integer.

[Tenudil]

Trunc just removes the fractional part of a number IE 2.65 would just be 2.

I probably should have prefaced that saying there is no proof those are the actual numbers used on live. Its possible they are but there could still be other factors added in. If i had run into this formula years ago i would have done some serious parsing to find out. I've been tinkering around with them lately, and I can't find any fault in them though. The evasion portion seems to follow a warriors level*10 pretty closely, up until you stop getting defense increases.

http://www.magelo.com/forum/messages.jspa?topic=19&page=3