"old world" charm level cap

[nilbog]

While researching, I've come across a few quotes which make me want more details.

Was there a charm cap level limit hardcoded for certain zones, continents, or eras?

Did you play an enchanter in classic? What do you remember?

Discuss/research more.

I think the reason for it has to do with the "old world" code that has problems with charm. For example using Command of Druzzil in Plane of Fear on light blue mobs would give you the "this mob is too high a level to be charmed" message because of the "old world" charm cap. Cazic Thule is still old world and may be affected by these rules as well, thus the no charm flag.
You have had to leave CT since the zone was released and Manastone outside. They nerfed that quite quickly, I do not even think manastoning in CT on the revamp made it to live servers, what they missed on test was the old world rules on what could be taunted and what could not be taunted.

So in the revamped CT for the first month you could not taunt anything, it made the zone quite fun.

Eventually they modified the zone so that taunt worked and the zone suddenly required far less skill http://www.therunes.net/forums/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

Charm however still does not work in CT and they fixed the old world charm and stun caps some time ago in the hole and the planes of fear and hate so it seems the charm caps in CT remain by choice.
http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1122

It's not charmable. Old world charm code won't allow you to charm anything over some prohibitively low level (52 I think) even the light blue trash gives you the "this mob is too high a level to be charmed" message even though it clearly shouldn't be.Some mobs are charmable, and some are not. The uncharmable mobs give you the "too high level to be charmed" message and they were light blue, meaning a blue con mob would be uncharmable. Fear does have charmable mobs, they're just lower then the Old World charm cap.http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=844

In certain old world zones, such as the Hole, creatures over level 52 cannot be mezzed. This is a legacy of the days when 50 was the highest level a player could reach, and only gods and other super bosses were 53 or higher. http://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html#charm

Acctually, in today's game, with exp so much better in other zones, charm would not be all that overppowering in CT. However I *think* there was something hardcoded in old world zones about charming over level 50 mobs...http://www.eqarchives.com/archive/index.php/t-59008.html

I never got the "this mob is immune to charm" message, but i was repeatedly getting the "too high for this spell" message using CoT on *light blue* (level 48) mobs.
The issue with charm is an old one... pretty sure you can still charm in there. Think it was something like at the time there were probably no plans for upgraded charms so if something was too high for charm it was flagged as uncharmable all together (it still shows the too high msg - which would have been true at the time). Just kill it off and move along to the next if it doesn't work.http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-7668.html

[Harrison'sNewName]

I believe those charm changes came with Dire Charm. Don't quote me exactly, I just remember only having these issues once Dire Charm (AA) got nerfed and a bunch of changes went in.

[nilbog]

I believe those charm changes came with Dire Charm. Don't quote me exactly, I just remember only having these issues once Dire Charm (AA) got nerfed and a bunch of changes went in.

I don't think so. Dire charm affected npcs up to level 46(?). These threads are prior to the 2004(?) dire charm nerf. My dates and levels are arbritrary as I don't think that was what these people were discussing. It could be though. More input requested.

[RevengeofGio]

I don't think so. Dire charm affected npcs up to level 46(?). These threads are prior to the 2004(?) dire charm nerf. My dates and levels are arbritrary as I don't think that was what these people were discussing. It could be though. More input requested.


I stopped playing long before 2004 and I remember reading about the dire charm nerf.

[nilbog]

Wells, we can talk about dire charm, but I don't think that is the point. Firstly, the revamped cazic thule didn't have npcs < 46, or even < 54ish iirc.

[Ele]

CastersRealm Wayback Snapshot has a listing of the level caps for each of the Enchanter charms. The charm strategy links are busted though :(

December 2000 capture:

http://web.archive.org/web/20001209190200/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spells.asp?Class=Enchanter

Charm Single Target Random Duration Charm Spell (Level 25 Cap)
Beguile Single Target Random Duration Charm Spell (Level 39 Cap)
Cajoling Whispers Single Target Random Duration Charm Spell (Level 45 Cap)
Allure Single Target Random Duration Charm Spell (Level 51 Cap)
Boltran's Agacerie Single Target Random Duration Charm Spell
Dictate Fixed Duration Charm Spell (48 Secs)

[Finias]

I did play an enchanter on live and I do remember there being an old world limit on charm and mez.

This was only really relevant in hate/fear (rarely) and in the hole (somewhat more common with the golems and ghosts). Plane of air was on kunark rules, so boltran's and dictate worked fine there.

Unfortunately I don't remember the exact level cutoff, but my suspicion is this level cutoff is based on the allure level cap since that was the highest level charm spell in the old world.
51 and lower - charm can land
52 and higher - charm will resist (I don't remember if the resist message actually told you why it bounced initially or you just got resists.)

[nilbog]

Yep. It sounds like there was possibly additional effort (hardcoding) put into zones, or npcs in zones of old world to prevent charming npcs over level X.

For example, if the (at this point theoretical) cap was set to 50, that would allow for very few npcs in fearplane to be charmed. More npcs in hateplane could be charmed than fear, but it'd still be a rare occurrence (lvl 49s).

With allure being <= 51, it seems like there would be a plethora of more charming possible. I never played an enchanter or bard, but I can clearly remember our enchanters charming ice giants in perma for vox (lvl 50 max on those btw), but not in fear and hate.

We have a large enough community here that I hope someone can remember specifics.


edit: Thanks, Finias. That is how it is currently set, but due to the spell, not the zones. i.e. can't allure a level 52.

[Finias]

Just based on design considerations, it would seem to make sense to make the old world rules to be <= 51 for charming and <= 54 for mez/stun. That doesn't mean that's what sony did however, and I can't seem to find anything definitive either way. Along similar lines, the p99 wiki lists Cazic Thule as stunnable. Is that true? If so, is that correct?

I suspect charm being so much more common on p99 during the old world era than back in 1999 being due to 1) general knowledge of the power of charming and 2) the p99 calculation formula for charm weighting charisma too heavily initially. If you replayed the old world era with the current charm formula, charm would be used in hate/fear, but less commonly since durations would be less reliable for mobs near the caster's level. Giants weren't mezzable, making charm and root the only crowd control tools, hence their increased use in those situations.

[Pringles]

Ive always wondered why I didnt remember charming in sky back in the day... but we do it here?

[Ele]

Ive always wondered why I didnt remember charming in sky back in the day... but we do it here?

You mean Sirran? Because he is the wrong level and Dictate isn't capped to <=58. Fixed pending update(TM).

[Finias]

Sky is kunark rules, so charming should be possible as long as the level cap restriction for the spell is met and the NPC is not de facto flagged uncharmable due to jacked magic resist. Sirran charming is another matter, and is slated to be removed next patch.

[RevengeofGio]

Wells, we can talk about dire charm, but I don't think that is the point. Firstly, the revamped cazic thule didn't have npcs < 46, or even < 54ish iirc.

Sometimes its fun to flex our nerd muscles.

[webrunner5]

I think Enchanters didn't charm as much back in the day because very few people had a clue about Charisma effecting duration so much. Or how powerfull it really is.

[nilbog]

Sometimes its fun to flex our nerd muscles.

Yours or mine? I'm just wanting this discussed without clouding the issue at hand.

Next up, are npcs >= 55 stunnable? I think/remember stuns generating aggro, but not actually stunning the npcs.