"Who gives a %#$" - EQ devs on Bard NPCs, 1999

[Stinkum]

Anyone else think it really takes away from the game how never at any point/era of Everquest did the developers actually implement Bard NPCs being able to sing and twist songs?

Due to lazy programming or rush to release the game, it was just one of those things that fell through the cracks.

Every other "class" NPC works as intended. Wizard NPCs cast Wizard spells, Clerics heal, Shamans slow and DoT, Necros have pets, SKs harm touch, etc.

Yet on Live if you'd fight a Bard NPC, they wouldn't even cast ANYTHING. They'd rarely even have weapons. They'd just punch you with extremely low damage and very weak HP. That's why people always solo'd the shit out of them (specially Necros) even though they were single spawns -- because they were such safe XP.

At least on P99 they gave Bard NPCs some type of nukes instead.. but you can't help but think it's weird that a Bard is casting spells.

/Toggleimmersion off

[pasi]

They learned to stop making bard NPCs after Xygoz for that very reason.

[xCry0x]

They learned to stop making bard NPCs after Xygoz for that very reason.

Could you imagine a bard npc kiting a raid?

F**** he got selo's off!

Sh** I can't get in range to land snare!

[kaev]

Could you imagine a bard npc kiting a raid?

F**** he got selo's off!

Sh** I can't get in range to land snare!

Tactics the players developed to deal with it could then be retrofitted to NPCs in large outdoor zones, the nerdrage of subsequent PC Bard victims would be epic.

[Atmas]

Bard raid mob fight, how would that go?

1. Mob Highsuns maintank
2. Mob AoE Mezzes raid
3. Mob charms rogues and turns them on clerics
4. Mob AoE DoTs
5. Mob DAs at low health to return to full with Dragon Regen
6. Mob runs away at Selos speed.
7. Mob cures itself of DoTs.
7. Mob hospitalized for carpal tunnel.

[xCry0x]

I just like the idea of zoning into OT and see an entire TMo raid force moving as a giant blob around the zone and all the lvl 30s going "Ah tmo is here being kited by Dragon_01 again"

[Stinkum]

Thread is not about dragons or AE kiting.

[xCry0x]

Anyone else think it really takes away from the game how never at any point/era of Everquest did the developers actually implement Bard NPCs being able to sing and twist songs?



If the NPC in question is a Dragon who happens to be classified as a bard then the discussion is absolutely about Dragon Bards.

Since bards spend 99% of their time AOE kiting (1% of their time complaining about exp penalty when grouping) this thread is absolutely about Dragon Bards that AoE kite.

I mean, is your expectation of a Bard NPC that twists songs one that simply sits there playing a flute for + Atk speed, + Regen, + Resists while a raid beats on it? I definitely imagine this alleged song twisting bard kiting vs meleing.

[Messianic]

http://futileposition.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Dragons-Bard-1024x766.png

[Stinkum]

I mean, is your expectation of a Bard NPC that twists songs one that simply sits there playing a flute?

lolwut? I don't even know what you're smoking but I would imagine the non-dragon Bard NPCs would melee while twisting songs appropriate for whatever level the NPC is (slows, PBAEs, DoTs, charms, etc). This is the same way any other class mob works.

[Rhaj]

Do you think other NPC mobs would bitch about NPC bards hogging all the PC spawns?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

well, it is a rather large gap in the lore and immersion aspect. The Maestro should be a bard. I always thought it was pretty lame he wasn't.

[porigromus]

And "twisting" songs does not ruin your immersion? I think it's ridiculous that they never fixed the issue, that being single songs being too weak rather than allow people to continue to "sing" all songs at once (Imagine how that would sound?).

If bards were ever customized on this server, I for one would hope twisting wouldn't exist anymore and all songs would get a boost as well as bard's melee dps.

[citizen1080]

Bard raid mob fight, how would that go?

1. Mob Highsuns maintank
2. Mob AoE Mezzes raid
3. Mob charms rogues and turns them on clerics
4. Mob AoE DoTs
5. Mob DAs at low health to return to full with Dragon Regen
6. Mob runs away at Selos speed.
7. Mob cures itself of DoTs.
7. Mob hospitalized for carpal tunnel.

I giggled

[Vexenu]

And "twisting" songs does not ruin your immersion? I think it's ridiculous that they never fixed the issue, that being single songs being too weak rather than allow people to continue to "sing" all songs at once (Imagine how that would sound?).

If bards were ever customized on this server, I for one would hope twisting wouldn't exist anymore and all songs would get a boost as well as bard's melee dps.

Behold, the Bard!

http://kevinoliver.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/colch_one_man_band_352_352x470.jpg

[t0lkien]

And "twisting" songs does not ruin your immersion? I think it's ridiculous that they never fixed the issue, that being single songs being too weak rather than allow people to continue to "sing" all songs at once (Imagine how that would sound?).

If bards were ever customized on this server, I for one would hope twisting wouldn't exist anymore and all songs would get a boost as well as bard's melee dps.

It would sound fine if they were all in the same key, or related keys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0YpAE8HwWA

Twisting was by design. It's brilliant as well, and resulted in the best class mechanic I've ever played.

[Swish]

Behold, the Bard!

http://kevinoliver.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/colch_one_man_band_352_352x470.jpg

They really get an invis song? They must sing that very quietly..

[falkun]

Twisting was by design. It's brilliant as well, and resulted in the best class mechanic I've ever played.

This. Twisting is a fantastic mechanic, especially combined with only allowing 8 possible songs at a time. While the "twitch finger" mechanic is very similar to WoW, WoW allows you to utilize all your spells, so it becomes a cut and dry rotation due to spell_A always outDPSing spell_B. EQ limits you to 8 spell slots, so you need to pick the best variety for your expected encounters. Also, unlike WoW's "rotation" button mashing, twisting changes depending on situation. I have to drop a song to add another to the rotation, so what song do I skip when I have to charm/mez a mob?

EQ Bard twisting is the genesis of WoW's rotation button mashing, but has a much better system than WoW for checks and balances to keep it interesting.

[Droog007]

There was a chick in Katta Castellum (?) that I think was supposed to be a bard. Tangling with her was always a chaotic mess. Couldn't say she acted anything like a PC bard, but it was a different experience, at least.

Not sure I fought Xygoz on live... is that NToV or VP?

[Stinkum]

Thread is all over the place.

But yeah, twisting songs is what made EQ, EQ. What you are describing is how Bards/Minstrels were on DAoC, which was a great game and might be more your style.

[Nirgon]

Being insulted for immersion levels prevents me from explaining to you how twisting songs is entirely plausible

[Halfelfbard]

/Facepalm

[Stinkum]

/Facepalm

?

[stormlord]

Well, if you want a realistic reproduce of the classes then the standard NPCs in classic EQ weren't a good example anyway. The rangers I killed on live, for example, never were smart enough to try to root/snare me and then run away a safe distance to heal up. And if I was on a warrior they feasibly could have rooted me and used their bow to supplement their killing power. Instead they just stood there within melee range and I killed them. For that matter, none of the classes were very smart. So while they did implement an abysmal example of the bard, the rest of the examples weren't great, either. Don't skip over that, please.

Bottom line, don't expect much from NPC AI. In fact, I've seen many examples in the MMORPG arena from different companies that they think smart NPCs would be too hard/grindy for players to kill. Honestly, would you enjoy it if an NPC kited you or used the walls to protect itself while it healed up? Would you like it if they always ran to other NPCs even when they were above 70% health just to ensure they'd win?

Good AI would make the game more inaccessible. Think about the warrior example I gave. I tested the idea several times with a lvl 17 ranger and lvl 17 warrior. Basically, the ranger's root gave him infinitely more power versus the warrior. The warrior had no chance. So if we had good AI in classic EQ then soloing warriors would never touch a ranger or any class that roots/snares. And we all know that one of the compaints warriors had was that they couldn't solo well. Imagine their ability to solo being even worse...

This is why on the pvp servers most starting players would do hybrids or casters. Doing a warrior or monk, by comparison, put you in harms way because it exposed you to twinks AND new players, unless you had a close knit group of friends to play with. The other thing was that there were less players on pvp servers and non-hybrids couldn't find groups. So the beforementioned warrior will wander from zone to zone looking for a group and then get potentially killed by a random hybrid that's not even twinked.

[Spitty]

This is a bizarre thread.

The OP brings up a point, discussion begins and the OP freaks out because his thread has encouraged ideas and discussion based on said point.

This is a bizarre thread.

[Stinkum]

This is a bizarre thread.

The OP brings up a point, discussion begins and the OP freaks out because his thread has encouraged ideas and discussion based on said point.

This is a bizarre thread.

Lol, man I am so freaking out right now.

[Happyfeet]

Back on track - you're right about normal bard NPCs, they should cast bard songs, but they didn't on live so they won't on here.

And in reference to the bard dragons, all dragons have a set 1-5 AEs/spells they cast. Most being just AE DD/ AE Fear.

Except for a couple exceptions, Silverwing and Hosh buff each other and other mobs. And Silverwing will Wind of Tashania mid-fight, but I've never noticed them use any of their other class specific spells mid-fight.