EQ Next: Best of show at E3!

[Pyrion]

EQ next wins Best of show award from MMORPG.com:

Say what? You thought this one wasn’t at E3? Well, really... it wasn’t in any official capacity. But we were treated to an early look at what SOE has planned for the game’s unveiling in August and we were quite simply blown away by every little detail we saw. This is going to sound like a cop-out, but we can't say why we are choosing EQN as our Best of Show because we've been sworn to secrecy until the big debut in August. What we can say is that we saw grand plans for the world's largest sandbox and it was more than enough to stand head and shoulders above any game we saw at E3. When Sony pulls back the curtain later this summer, you will not be disappointed. EverQuest Next is this year's E3 Best of Show, and in just a couple months you'll all understand why. We promise.

Here is the URL:
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7501/page/1

[t0lkien]

Spin and rhetoric. That's all I'm gonna say.

[Pyrion]

This may be a reason why EQNext may indeed be nice:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/04/27/tattered-notebook-eq-next-and-storybricks-sitting-in-a-tree/

[t0lkien]

"If there is anything the EverQuest franchise is known for, it's for the quests. Lots of quests."

Say, wat?

[Shocore]

EverQuest and other MMORPG's are supposed to be about saving the world and vanquishing evil. But since you share a world with hundreds of other people with their own desires, said evil always has to reappear a few minutes later. So its less like being a fantasy adventurer and more like being a social worker.

[Mappo Runt]

"If there is anything the EverQuest franchise is known for, it's for the quests. Lots of quests."

Say, wat?

EQ2 had a ton of quests, but EQ1 did not have a ton or if they did it was not easy to find them.

[TWDL_Prexus]

EQ2 had a ton of quests, but EQ1 did not have a ton or if they did it was not easy to find them.

I'm not really sure what game you played but Everquest has the most quests I've ever encountered in any MMO. Just because the NPC's don't have giant !'s over their head doesn't mean they don't have a quest...

[xCry0x]

I'm not really sure what game you played but Everquest has the most quests I've ever encountered in any MMO. Just because the NPC's don't have giant !'s over their head doesn't mean they don't have a quest...

Considering whenever the WoW vs EQ comes up someone inevitably says "Ugh, all you do in WoW is run around by yourself doing stupid quests to level, in EQ you have to group up and grind exp and build a community." I would make the claim that EQ is not known for quests comparatively.

EQ def has some of the more involved quests with the epic weapons and high end dungeon keys though.

[gotrocks]

Will wait for the reveal to pass judgement.

I've never trusted mmorpg.com's opinion on anything. In general those guy kind of suck.

[skipdog]

"If there is anything the EverQuest franchise is known for, it's for the quests. Lots of quests."

Say, wat?

Yeah, the author is clearly not experienced with classic Everquest. I laughed at some of the lines.

[skipdog]

I'm not really sure what game you played but Everquest has the most quests I've ever encountered in any MMO. Just because the NPC's don't have giant !'s over their head doesn't mean they don't have a quest...

EQ stilll has nowhere NEAR the number of quests that any MMO made in the past 5 years has...

EQ was never about quests. They existed and we did some, but it was not the defining feature in any way.

[Hex]

Cannot wait!

[Atmas]

My friends and I used to joke and call this game NeverQuest. Truthfully though there are a lot of quests that have more of a bearing on your charcter's progression. That is to say, WoW has a ton of quests but most of them don't really mean anything except a little xp and a little bit of coin. In EQ some of your best armor, weapons, and class essential items come from quest.

[stormlord]

EverQuest and other MMORPG's are supposed to be about saving the world and vanquishing evil. But since you share a world with hundreds of other people with their own desires, said evil always has to reappear a few minutes later. So its less like being a fantasy adventurer and more like being a social worker.
Hence, this is why some of the MMORPGs are now changing how the zone looks for each individual player. In EverQuest 2, for example, when you complete a quest, that NPC might not be available/visible to you anymore. This won't be true for players who haven't completed the quest. Similarly, in DDO you would complete a series of quests and the zone would change to reflect your progression. Other players, of course, would not see this change until they had also completed the quests. So it's kind of like a single player game in a mmo.

Of course, the reason these things aren't normally shared is because it might block off portions of the content for players who might have the desire to play it, as you state.

[Sirken]

didnt make it to the EQnext video yet.. got grabbed in by a ESO video

[Hex]

Yeah, I think my WoW main has something like 10k+ quests done. It's ridiculous. But, as you said, most of them are mundane, and don't mean anything overall, just something to disguise the exp grind.

[Hex]

didnt make it to the EQnext video yet.. got grabbed in by a ESO video


Been playing ESO beta and Wildstar beta, and honestly, between to two, even though they play completely different, I think I'm going to skip out on ESO. I've played every other ES game, and loved them to death, but ESO itself, is just meh. Wildstar on the other hand, is insane. It's so unique. Yes, it looks like WoW kinda, but plays completely different. Has one of the most unique combat systems, the classes are already very well balanced, and fun. The biggest thing for Wildstar so far, is that you literally have like 5 to 7 skills by level 10, so you're not running around, casting the same spell, at the same boars, over and over.

All in all, EQNext is going to be awesome, it has to be. Especially if they bring back anything old school about EQ.

[Droog007]

...so you're not running around, casting the same spell, at the same boars, over and over...

Chlorophyll? More like BOARophyll! Haw haw haw!

[Messianic]

I think there's a dimension people are missing with the whole "EQ was about quests" statement. It's somewhat true if placed in context of where EQ started. For its time, it had a lot of quests. Pretty much anything you played in that same time period hadn't developed the multitude of, nor the depth of specific individual quests and subquests (soulfire, epics, monk robe quests, etc) EQ had - as rudimentary as they seem to us now. At that time, people did rave about how many unique quests and NPC interactions you could complete that would affect your gear/gameplay, etc.

WoW Vanilla basically took what EQ did there and massively multiplied its applications - be it quests for useful trinkets, gear, money, or exp; or even epic-type quests (think Hunter Rhok'delar). They did it really, really well, too - so much so that it outshined the quest aspect of EQ by a long shot.

But Quests were the intended focus of EQ (Ever-Quest), it was just the way people thought at the time that pure grinding (i.e. sit in dungeon X and kill as many mobs as quickly as possible) was a necessary evil and was unavoidable to make the game "challenging". WoW and a number of successors changed that thinking.

[Hex]

WoW Vanilla basically took what EQ did there and massively multiplied its applications - be it quests for useful trinkets, gear, money, or exp; or even epic-type quests (think Hunter Rhok'delar). They did it really, really well, too - so much so that it outshined the quest aspect of EQ by a long shot.

But Quests were the intended focus of EQ (Ever-Quest), it was just the way people thought at the time that pure grinding (i.e. sit in dungeon X and kill as many mobs as quickly as possible) was a necessary evil and was unavoidable to make the game "challenging". WoW and a number of successors changed that thinking.

^^THIS^^

YES! I mean, sure, I turned in, god knows how many Crushbone belts. But give me my Carrot on a Stick, I must have it! EQ = Dungeon squatting for X amount of hours, while WoW, was just do dungeon once for some gear, and then head back to questing for X amount of hours. Execept vanilla WoW, where grinding was actually the fastest method of leveling.

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

http://youtu.be/AKbk4qGfBGE

[Faerie]

http://youtu.be/AKbk4qGfBGE

Other than this video (that says nothing about EQ3), I'm not seeing a video about the game. Am I missing something?

[Atmas]

Other than this video (that says nothing about EQ3), I'm not seeing a video about the game. Am I missing something?

Nope, things are under tight lock and key as far as visuals and gameplay. I think there is a big reveal coming Aug 1st?

[Knots]

Other than this video (that says nothing about EQ3), I'm not seeing a video about the game. Am I missing something?

You aren't missing anything. There won't be any information about EQ next until it is revealed in August. Anything you see before then will have no details at all, just boring hype.

[Messianic]

You aren't missing anything. There won't be any information about EQ next until it is revealed in August. Anything you see before then will have no details at all, just boring hype.

Eh, sometimes development teams will intentionally leak legitimate info to stoke internet hype. So if someone is really excited about EQNext and wants to sift all kinds of possible leads all over the internet, I say go for it - I don't know if they'll get any real info or not.

But I'm with you, I'm not going to worry about it until they specifically release info about it.

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

i was just sharing, no need to get edgy

[fadetree]

"...where your decisions will really matter!'

everytime I hear something like that, I die inside a little.

[Rezonation]

This thread made me curious so I did some research on Allakhazam. Numbers may not be 100% due to changes over the years, but here are the numbers.

EverQuest - 909 Classic Era quests
(To obtain this number I did a Quest Search and the only search criteria I selected was "Original" for the Era field. Copied and pasted each page of the search results to Excel to get a number count since the site does not calculate a total number.)

World of Warcraft - 770 Classic Era quests (12,348 quests in current Live WoW)
(Ran a Quest Search limiting the search criteria to "None" for the Added In Expansion field. 2 of the results were level 80 and were dailys. Those 2 have been omitted in the numbers. Numbers according to WoWhead.com)

EverQuest II - 9082 Current Era quests (Unable to search quests by Era here. This number also includes ~500 obsolete quests.)

[fadetree]

A lot of stuff called 'quests' in mmorpg's nowadays shouldn't be, in my opinion. They are mostly just 'tasks'. run here, bring this, find these, kill that, now do it some more. Those aren't quests...quests are supposed to be something that is daunting and takes a long time and research and luck and staunch companions. Yknow, like in the movies. I like to think that the original EQ quests are more quest-like, and the zillions of teeny little 'quests' in WoW and I assume in EQII are more of the task variety.

I think the epics in EQ are still some of the best examples of actual quests worthy of the name you can find in any mmo.

[t0lkien]

Re. the "many quests" thing, it's irrelevant how many quests EQ did/didn't have. Questing isn't what the game was built around at all, and anyone who played it knows that. That's a function of XP reward, nothing else. The way to progress in EQ is to kill mobs. EQ2, I can't comment on as I lasted only a week in it, but to say the franchise is built around the number of quests offered is totally ignoring the game that started it.

WoW changed that by making completing quests by far the biggest XP earner, and so in one unintentional swoop turned MMOs into online single player games.

[Messianic]

WoW changed that by making completing quests by far the biggest XP earner, and so in one unintentional swoop turned MMOs into online single player games.

In WoW Vanilla, I found it much faster to solo grind mobs (in carefully chosen areas which were away from PvP) from 50-60 than to attempt to quest. I know a ton of others who preferred instance grinding with a group than attempting to solo quest and deal with perpetual PvP (although that was fun sometimes).

Basically, Mannoroth was a high population PvP server with a crapton of roaming gankers and hit squads. You'd end up broiled in PvP before you could get any real questing done.

Which was cool sometimes. Other times it was damn annoying.

[TarukShmaruk]

A lot of stuff called 'quests' in mmorpg's nowadays shouldn't be, in my opinion. They are mostly just 'tasks'. run here, bring this, find these, kill that, now do it some more. Those aren't quests...quests are supposed to be something that is daunting and takes a long time and research and luck and staunch companions. Yknow, like in the movies. I like to think that the original EQ quests are more quest-like, and the zillions of teeny little 'quests' in WoW and I assume in EQII are more of the task variety.

I think the epics in EQ are still some of the best examples of actual quests worthy of the name you can find in any mmo.

Agreed.

WoW's version of epic quests are legendaries and are released one at a time, require consolidating all drops to a specific player, and are really nothing like EQ's epic quests.

Sure, lots of classes had bottleneck epics that required waiting in line within their guild, but in general people of different classes could all be working on and completing their epics at once.

[t0lkien]

EQ's epic quests are the best single implementation of quests and reward in any game I've played (the Coldain Ring quest is up there also). They were inspired. As a friend said recently, getting his Ranger epic was a life achievement. Ok, he was being ironic - but only a little.

[Pringles]

MMORPG.com also gave SWTOR an award in 2011.... and it sucks. http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/5294

Just sayin....

[TarukShmaruk]

EQ's epic quests are the best single implementation of quests and reward in any game I've played (the Coldain Ring quest is up there also). They were inspired. As a friend said recently, getting his Ranger epic was a life achievement. Ok, he was being ironic - but only a little.

Personally I think the design of triggering a mob that is specific to the epic quest is ideal. Show up with a bunch of people willing to help you, take down a challenging mob, get the piece.

Packing items on to normal raid targets sucks (unless raids are instanced).

[Sarius]

But the wait makes the reward that much more gratifying

[Calibix]

Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock into what mmorpg.com says. That being said however, my guild already has been confirmed for testing, so I am eagerly awaiting that.

[Hex]

Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock into what mmorpg.com says. That being said however, my guild already has been confirmed for testing, so I am eagerly awaiting that.

Who gave you that confirmation?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I hear it's even better than eq2

[Tiggles]

MMORPG.com also gave SWTOR an award in 2011.... and it sucks. http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/5294

Just sayin....

They gave it most anticipated because...it was the most anticipated MMO the hype was unreal.

[Ahldagor]

the hype makes me suspicious

[Anderdale]

saving up for my new laptop just for this game. Hope it doesn't disappoint

[citizen1080]

didnt make it to the EQnext video yet.. got grabbed in by a ESO video

they are porting eso to console...prety much given up on it now

[Telin]

The hype scares me too. Like I'm getting prepared for an ugly blind date

[kaleran]

The things that are hyping the game for me:

1. Brad McQuaid was brought back to work on EverQuest by SOE. Perhaps he has a hidden "development" role with EQNext moving forward?
2. Smed has been making these games for almost 2 decades now, so they definitely have the experience
3. I greatly enjoyed how they handled the Planetside 2 release. They listened to players and just did an overall solid job.

The only real question is, how much can the MMO market be milked nowadays? No game, no matter how great, ends up losing players at an insane rate after 1 year. It's hard to make a successful MMO now. But, I have hope.

[Kagatob]

they are porting eso to console...prety much given up on it now

This, coupled with the fact that Elder Scrolls is entirely about you becoming the single hero of the entire era, that doesn't translate to MMO no matter what way you swing it.

It's just going to end up being another generic MMO that grabbed an audience with the name/setting. I predict F2P in 2 years.

[Kagatob]

Brad McQuaid

Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Nuff said. :(

[Ahldagor]

darkfall is the closest i've come to finding a game that compares to eq for me. the time factor and patience, but darkfall fails horribly in the return for effort part.

[Millburn]

Vanguard Saga of Heroes. Nuff said. :(

Well here's to hoping he doesn't pick up vicodin again.

[Hex]

they are porting eso to console...prety much given up on it now

I have beta for it. It's just meh. And as you said, now that it's going to console, PASS. Wildstar beta is super fun though, VERY promising game.

[t0lkien]

Smedley's design style is well known to those who played EQ during the handover from Verant to SOE and beyond. No thanks (I'll be very happy to be wrong about this where EQN is concerned, but I doubt I am).

ESO has three separate levels of instancing. No thanks.

Wildstar is (if possible) even more cartoony than WoW, and triter. Again, no thanks (yes, it matters a lot).

There's a huge hole in the market right now. I'm amazed noone has the nous to step up and fill it.

[Kagatob]

ESO has three separate levels of instancing. No thanks.

I thought it wasn't going to have instancing at all. Shit. Not even going to consider touching that garbage then.

[Kagatob]

In "Elder Scrolls Online," the loot system is instanced, meaning that if you're part of a party and your party slays a monster, loot doesn't fall to the ground. Instead, all the loot from that kill gets allocated to your party members only
/puke

[t0lkien]

Yep. They also instance "public" areas (a la EQ2), and have instanced dungeons. I stopped following it as soon as I discovered that.

I don't know why these games don't just release as single player games with a shared online chat interface. It's the same thing and would save a lot of time, money, and disappointment.

[Hex]

Smedley's design style is well known to those who played EQ during the handover from Verant to SOE and beyond. No thanks (I'll be very happy to be wrong about this where EQN is concerned, but I doubt I am).

ESO has three separate levels of instancing. No thanks.

Wildstar is (if possible) even more cartoony than WoW, and triter. Again, no thanks (yes, it matters a lot).

There's a huge hole in the market right now. I'm amazed noone has the nous to step up and fill it.


Wildstar doesn't even have finally graphics in. It is cartoony yes, but is' also a sci fi comedy mmo. It's story and just general interaction is hilarious. The combat system is awesome, crafting system awesome, housing idea is pretty cool, even if it is instanced. You get instant gratification, even at low levels, as by level 10, you already have 5 to 7 abilities. It's still in early beta testing, but it is quite a promising game. Most fun I've had in a long time in a game.

[Hex]

Yep. They also instance "public" areas (a la EQ2), and have instanced dungeons. I stopped following it as soon as I discovered that.

I don't know why these games don't just release as single player games with a shared online chat interface. It's the same thing and would save a lot of time, money, and disappointment.

With bigger games this is necessary. No one wants to wait on spawns anymore. Who wants to be in an area that you have to kill 10 of something, and you have to literally wait an hour to do so, because there are 200 other people in the same zone. Instanced public areas for large scale MMOs is a must anymore, but some of them do well with it, and instance only if the number of people get higher. I mean, I guess they could just tune up spawn rate, the faster things are getting killed, but where's the fun in killing a monster, only for it to spawn instantly, right where you killed it?

[Hex]

/puke

Would you prefer that loot all drops, and the person getting it, is the person that clicks the fastest, has the fastest macro, or the better connection, and you don't get anything?

[Dracosy]

I try to avoid most SOE games mainly because of the Cash Shop. SOE likes to nickel and dime ya on exp potions, faction potions, fancy looking armor, mounts, etc, etc. If I Sub a game I expect that stuff to be automatic threw quests and much better than what you can buy. I personally don't see EqNext doing any thing in the MMO market.

[Kagatob]

Would you prefer that loot all drops, and the person getting it, is the person that clicks the fastest, has the fastest macro, or the better connection, and you don't get anything?

I don't know about you but I communicate with my group and we fairly distribute loot every time with no problem and if it turns out that there's a loot whore who is ninjaing everything he sees we boot him and find another person to replace him np because we aren't grouping in a fucking instance. :)

[TarukShmaruk]

I try to avoid most SOE games mainly because of the Cash Shop. SOE likes to nickel and dime ya on exp potions, faction potions, fancy looking armor, mounts, etc, etc. If I Sub a game I expect that stuff to be automatic threw quests and much better than what you can buy. I personally don't see EqNext doing any thing in the MMO market.

So what?

All that stuff is optional.

People need to get over this entitlement complex they have. F2P is here to stay. It lets those without time, but money, to keep pace with those who have lots of time AND those people foot the bill for the content that the freeloaders with lots of time get to play.

It's about as win/win as you can possibly get.

[Khaleesi]

I am of full belief that EQN will be Vanguard 2.0 - and I say that with lots of anticipation.
However, whether it's a semi sandbox MMORPG with real time combat(including active defense) + all of the revolutionary feature sets of Vanguard, is yet to be seen - and most likely will not happen.

[Hex]

I try to avoid most SOE games mainly because of the Cash Shop. SOE likes to nickel and dime ya on exp potions, faction potions, fancy looking armor, mounts, etc, etc. If I Sub a game I expect that stuff to be automatic threw quests and much better than what you can buy. I personally don't see EqNext doing any thing in the MMO market.

I love the F2P with a micro transaction shop option. That's how all games are going anymore, it's the new scheme. They make a lot more options, and it gives the players much more of an option, as to what they get for their money, as opposed to a sub based game. I'd like to believe WoW is the last sub pased game we'll ever see.

Also, you don't HAVE to buy any of those things, and a lot of them are just things to speed up your leveling process, or cosmetic things.

[Hex]

I don't know about you but I communicate with my group and we fairly distribute loot every time with no problem and if it turns out that there's a loot whore who is ninjaing everything he sees we boot him and find another person to replace him np because we aren't grouping in a fucking instance. :)

Yes, in a perfect world, that would be great. But anymore, with the directions that players and video games are going, that's not an option. I'm hoping they do something to where this is an option though. Would love to see MMOs go back to the way they were, not just full of trolls and children, that need shit handed to them, or they get all pissy.

[SamwiseRed]

i just want open world pvp, faction/deity based teams, and moar sandbox. id like to see something like EVE or Age of Wushu where everything is made by and for players.

[Nytch]

i just want open world pvp, faction/deity based teams, and moar sandbox.

Sam wants Sullon Zek...

[Droog007]

So what?

All that stuff is optional.

People need to get over this entitlement complex they have. F2P is here to stay. It lets those without time, but money, to keep pace with those who have lots of time AND those people foot the bill for the content that the freeloaders with lots of time get to play.

It's about as win/win as you can possibly get.

People get off on exclusivity, and the concept of "buying your way in" is all sorts of taboo across many human endeavors.

I get why it happens - on paper it makes sense - but in a virtual world where you can't get shit unless your PLAY your ass off for it, that shit means a lot more.

[Hex]

I'd be almost willing to guarantee that EQ Next is going to be the same model, that all games are going now. F2P with a micro transaction store. On release they're going to have their Founder's Packs, and they're Collector's Editions. It's just the way of the market.

[kaleran]

Smedley's design style is well known to those who played EQ during the handover from Verant to SOE and beyond. No thanks (I'll be very happy to be wrong about this where EQN is concerned, but I doubt I am).


Smed was the producer of EverQuest from it's inception. The only handover that occurred was McQuaid stepping down as lead developer and then moving on to his own company. EverQuest has always been SOE intellectual property.

The downturn occurred when they tried to match WoW punch for punch. And new producers would join the team along the way. Smed will likely be the lead producer on EQN like he was for Planetside 2, then hand it off to someone else once it's been off the ground for awhile.

I still have high hopes for EQNext. But even if it sucks, I still have p99 to dick around with on my off-time.

[NachtMystium]

EQ Next: SOE's attempt to cash in on the modernized MMORPG market. It will not be anything like classic EQ.
That "Tons of quests" quote is just a taste of all the casuals who have never played EQ who will be flocking to this game without any idea of the original. Srsly made me cringe lols.

Expect instanced zones with minimaps and fetch quests to max level, changing bland, non-memorable gear out every level like "Breastplate of the Owl" etc. etc. I've really given up on hoping for something new... I'm really just hoping for Velious sometime soon.

[SamwiseRed]

Sam wants Sullon Zek...

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/yes/yesjacknicholson.gif

[Gadwen]

I love the F2P with a micro transaction shop option. That's how all games are going anymore, it's the new scheme. They make a lot more options, and it gives the players much more of an option, as to what they get for their money, as opposed to a sub based game.

Bull, bull, bull. You are just repeating what the publishers are telling you. SoE is especially horrible with their F2P crap. When you watch game breaking bugs persist for weeks and 2 dozen new sweet cosmetic items roll out, you should really be happy that you can "play your way."

F2P is the new strategy to gouge gamers at every single turn. And no, it's not "cosmetic" items only that F2P games sell.

I'll take a $50 game and a $15 a month subscription any day over the F2P garbage. At least then the devs will be thinking about how they can improve the game to bring new players in and make more people buy it, rather than having meetings about what the most profitable pieces of gear they sell in the in game shop are.

[Ahldagor]

Bull, bull, bull. You are just repeating what the publishers are telling you. SoE is especially horrible with their F2P crap. When you watch game breaking bugs persist for weeks and 2 dozen new sweet cosmetic items roll out, you should really be happy that you can "play your way."

F2P is the new strategy to gouge gamers at every single turn. And no, it's not "cosmetic" items only that F2P games sell.

I'll take a $50 game and a $15 a month subscription any day over the F2P garbage. At least then the devs will be thinking about how they can improve the game to bring new players in and make more people buy it, rather than having meetings about what the most profitable pieces of gear they sell in the in game shop are.

PREACH BRUTHA! so true too. if eqn is like vanguard, but with eq lore then it won't be horrible. we can't expect it to be like eq1 at all because that's not what is seen as appealing by the devs, unfortunately. if they had something as massive and immersive as eq then it could be great if they keep on top of bugs and improving play. they also need to have enough content for the hardcore and the adventurous need the open spaces, and not have a player base that whines because there's no helm graphics.

[t0lkien]

Smed was the producer of EverQuest from it's inception. The only handover that occurred was McQuaid stepping down as lead developer and then moving on to his own company. EverQuest has always been SOE intellectual property.

McQuaid and Smedley founded Verant, and then SOE bought it. You may be right that EQ was always SOE IP as part of that deal, it's not really clear:

http://www.silkyvenom.com/pages/devtracker/index.php?go=posts&get=thread&fromsite=1&id=51141

What did happen when McQuaid left/stepped down is that Smedley took a much more active role in the ongoing design. I know this first hand not only from the forum posts he made regarding changes at the time, but the clear change in ethic and tone of the game from then on. Perhaps the classic quote of that time came from Verant CEO Kelly Flock: "Players don't know what they want; we just want to know if they have a valid credit card". No really, he said that in an interview regarding EverQuest. I met the guy years later with that quote still ringing in my ears, and he was pretty much what I expected.

The downturn occurred when they tried to match WoW punch for punch. And new producers would join the team along the way. Smed will likely be the lead producer on EQN like he was for Planetside 2, then hand it off to someone else once it's been off the ground for awhile.

The "downturn" occurred with Luclin and everything else after the Sony acquisition of Verant (the first expansions done without McQuaid and only Smedley at the helm - you see the theme here). We all left for WoW in droves (me in beta) because Smedley and SOE had already destroyed the game we loved via a war of attrition firstly, and straight out bad design secondly.

I still have high hopes for EQNext. But even if it sucks, I still have p99 to dick around with on my off-time.

I hope you're right, I really do. But my experience with games and the people who make them is EQN is doomed to be what it will be from the beginning because of the people making it. The proof of this already is that Smedley, in usual form, threw away 18 months of development based upon the awesome idea to recreate and reboot classic EQ, and instead make a "world changing, genre redefining" MMO, yadda yadda.

For anyone who has been around the traps even a few years, that sort of talk is the kiss of death from people who are more adept at hyperbole, spin, and straight out dishonesty (combined with the parsing of player data to find new ways to exploit them) than making great and memorable game experiences.

As I've said though, I want to be wrong about this.

[Hex]

Bull, bull, bull. You are just repeating what the publishers are telling you. SoE is especially horrible with their F2P crap. When you watch game breaking bugs persist for weeks and 2 dozen new sweet cosmetic items roll out, you should really be happy that you can "play your way."

F2P is the new strategy to gouge gamers at every single turn. And no, it's not "cosmetic" items only that F2P games sell.

I'll take a $50 game and a $15 a month subscription any day over the F2P garbage. At least then the devs will be thinking about how they can improve the game to bring new players in and make more people buy it, rather than having meetings about what the most profitable pieces of gear they sell in the in game shop are.

I get where you're coming from, I personally like the microtransaction model better. Honestly, I'd pay a sub for a game, and have a store, if the game was deserving. I don't buy anything in a game that sucks.

[Shilver]

The devs seem genuienly good guys who want the game to be fun. It sounds like it's August is gonna be huge; gonna get interesting to see how they get the EQ1 elements down. It doesn't have to be a clone..but use the same type of blueprint - non-instance, group, exploration of a vast world. They seem to mention the original EQ a lot more then EQ2...a lot more. So maybe there's hope.

[killa0885pve]

Not all Free to play/Micro-transaction models are actually bad. I was against the idea as it started to get influence here at first. But I have spent a lot of game time playing Planetside 2, have about 150 hours logged. The Transaction model they have setup there is actually really good. Every weapon available to someone who just throws $100's of cash down is available to any player via Cert's in the game. I know MANY players who are near max level and have not spent more than $15.

It really all depends on how they setup the microstransaction system. If it's pay to win. Then every whale who throws down $250 on a triple station cash day is going to be miles ahead of the pack. If they were to somehow follow the Planetside 2 style microtransaction system, I'd be more than happy.

I'm not exactly sure how you would convert it over to a Fantasty/RPG genre, but I'm sure people can come up with some ideas.

[Pyrion]

They win another best of E3 show award, this time from TenTonHammer:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/251130/page/8

We’ve been looking forward to EverQuest Next for quite some time now. Even though our expectations heading into our private viewing during E3 were high, EverQuest Next exceeded those expectations on all fronts.

While we are sworn to secrecy on exactly what we were shown, what we can say is that EverQuest Next was hands-down the best game we had the pleasure of seeing during E3 2013. Franchise fans and MMO gamers across the globe will be able to learn exactly why that’s the case on August 2nd during SOE Live when EQNext is given its grand unveiling.

Trust us when we say that you’ll want to mark that date on your calendar, and be prepared to bask in the warm glow of EverQuest Next in all its glory. In the meantime, kudos to the folks over at SOE for winning our Best of Show award; we’re as excited as you are to witness the impact EverQuest Next is surely going to have on gamers this August!

[Cheeb]

As with any MMO that's come out in the last 10 years I'll believe the hype when I play the game. Nothing past Burning Crusade has been worth playing for an extended amount of time. That said I am excited yet reserved about what EQN will be.

[Gadwen]

Not all Free to play/Micro-transaction models are actually bad. I was against the idea as it started to get influence here at first. But I have spent a lot of game time playing Planetside 2, have about 150 hours logged. The Transaction model they have setup there is actually really good. Every weapon available to someone who just throws $100's of cash down is available to any player via Cert's in the game. I know MANY players who are near max level and have not spent more than $15.

It really all depends on how they setup the microstransaction system. If it's pay to win. Then every whale who throws down $250 on a triple station cash day is going to be miles ahead of the pack. If they were to somehow follow the Planetside 2 style microtransaction system, I'd be more than happy.

I'm not exactly sure how you would convert it over to a Fantasty/RPG genre, but I'm sure people can come up with some ideas.


The PS2 model is....everything is for sale. Which would be an awful model for an MMORPG. Achievements are trivialized for everyone when progression through the game can be purchased.

And uhh....$250 in SC on PS2 will put you miles ahead of the pack or more like hundreds of hours of grinding ahead of the pack. Planetside 2 is pretty damn close to pay to win. And it is a prime example of SoE rolling out new fins for jets or new camo or new gun while the game is in an unplayable state for a good portion of its playerbase.

[killa0885pve]

Gadwen it is true that you are able to buy all of the weapons in PS2 if you were to throw down $250, but the reason I say that it's a balanced system is the fact that that does not make you superior. The game is all about getting attachments For your weapons, and THIS CANNOT be bought, it must be earned through in game XP.

Like I said, I'm not sure how you would make this system work in an MMORPG successfully, but i'd wouldn't mind some developer trying.

It happens to be the best micro-transaction system that I have seen implemented.
I never liked the idea of micro-transactions, but after seeing PS2's model I think that they can work.

[Thulack]

Gadwen it is true that you are able to buy all of the weapons in PS2 if you were to throw down $250, but the reason I say that it's a balanced system is the fact that that does not make you superior. The game is all about getting attachments For your weapons, and THIS CANNOT be bought, it must be earned through in game XP.

Like I said, I'm not sure how you would make this system work in an MMORPG successfully, but i'd wouldn't mind some developer trying.

It happens to be the best micro-transaction system that I have seen implemented.
I never liked the idea of micro-transactions, but after seeing PS2's model I think that they can work.

He doesnt care if you can get the items through Cash shop and playing. His beef is that he spent X amount of hours to get something where someone else just paid cash for it.

[kaleran]

I enjoyed PS2's payment model. I thought it was a great idea to allow those of us with jobs that sometimes require 60 hours of work a week a chance to stay competitive. And has been said, the only thing you could buy were different weapons, not the individual upgrades (which were the more important aspets).

To make it fit into the MMORPG mold I could see them adding the following for sale:
1. XP potions (obv)
2. If there are corpse runs, a "buy your corpse" feature. Which would be a HUGE win for us players that can only play 2-3 hours a night at most. One death in a dungeon and I'm out *two* days of playing.
3. Appearance items. They are the cash-cow of EQ2, so I don't see how they launch EQN without appearance slots.
4. Mounts (duh)
5. Bonuses for any other unknown EQN feature

That is SOE's kind of model when it comes to their cash shops. Have things buyable that makes things look prettier or go faster. But you can't buy a new step in a quest. You can't buy a new weapon that puts raid weapons to shame.

Also on Smedley. I'm sure at one point he did think of players as just Credit Cards, but that stance sure seemed to change with PS2. A lot of the changes/balances to the game occurred because he was in game asking players what they thought of the balances and direction of the game. Heck, they even had a poll at some point (don't know how that turned out, stopped playing after 3 months). So while it may be true that his vision hurt original EQ, I think he learned.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Selling cosmetic items, that have appearance only value I can understand.
Selling anything with even slightest effect on gameplay - I am out of here.

[Rhambuk]

Selling cosmetic items, that have appearance only value I can understand.
Selling anything with even slightest effect on gameplay - I am out of here.

Agreed, though I wish they wouldn't have those appearance only items. I can't help myself and easily spent $200 on eq2 to make my chars look cool then quit a month later...

[Faerie]

If you're able to purchase anything in EQNext that gives you an advantage, I doubt I'll be playing it. This includes runspeed increases, and mounts (unless they're really easy to get in game). I'd kinda forgotten that SOE had moved away from subscriptions and were going the microtransaction route.

This is unsettling.

[Shilver]

On the bright side..it is a sandbox. Having a normal cash shop isn't something that can be done; it has to be tailored specifically to not effect gameplay. Really it's so easy to avoid cashshops, and if you really do like the game..put some money down. I've spent over $300 on League of Legends and don't regret it because it's a great game.

[Gadwen]

If you're able to purchase anything in EQNext that gives you an advantage, I doubt I'll be playing it. This includes runspeed increases, and mounts (unless they're really easy to get in game). I'd kinda forgotten that SOE had moved away from subscriptions and were going the microtransaction route.

This is unsettling.

Check out the EQ 2 shop, I can only imagine that their next game will have even more stuff to buy.

[t0lkien]

Just FYI, increasing runspeed has a subtle but deep impact on the entire game flow. Being able to buy it undermines the fundamental feel of the world (the genius of the Bard in EQ is that it's a class whose core mechanic is runspeed).

If you can buy runspeed (item, mount), you *can* buy power.

[Faerie]

The impact of runspeed is not at all subtle, lol :P

Bard class got a big nerf when mounts were introduced in Luclin.

[t0lkien]

The impact of runspeed is not at all subtle, lol :P

Bard class got a big nerf when mounts were introduced in Luclin.

Totally agree (and Thott had a great post pointing it out back in the day).

It's really surprised me that people have not understood the fundamental effect of movement speed, and have had to have it pointed out to them over and over again (I laboured to explain the point as a dev on other games, and those making the decisions neither understood nor agreed - so I'm left with the assumption that it must be a more subtle point than it appears to be to me).

Giving it away via ingame purchases or to everyone via mounts removes an element of RPG progression and possible class distinction that EQ got beautifully right. The same can be said for porting, healing, CC etc.

[Faerie]

I remember I was excited about the "Fleet of Foot" bard AA (slight speed increase for Selo's) when PoP was released, only to discover that it was broken :(

People often do underestimate the power of runspeed, and I'll never understand why.

[killa0885pve]

I haven't played EQ2but I would of thought if you could buy mounts at the cash cash shop, they wouldn't have the higher runspeed %. Kinda like how Wow did it, at the time I played you could never buy a mount, That had a higher % run speed than of one that you had naturally acquired.

I find that a pretty fair solution. As long as the higher run speed stuff is raid dropped etc, people who can just drop cash on the cashshop can't just go buy it. But they can go buy themselves a pretty new Froglock mount maybe.

[t0lkien]

"All compromise is based on give and take, but there can be no give and take on fundamentals. Any compromise on mere fundamentals is a surrender. For it is all give and no take."

Mahatma Gandhi

[fastboy21]

I have to call BS on this...

As much as I am an SOE fanboi and want desperately for EQN to be ground breaking and awesome (I am going to Fanfaire just to see the unveiling) it is absolute BS to give them an award at E3 for showing the public nothing.

Its like Obama winning the Nobel Peace prize...even if you like him you know he didn't do crap to deserve it.

I will hand it to SOE for running one of the best publicity campaigns in MMO history...without even showing their product. Not only that...they have somehow managed to keep a lid on their black box. How they are doing it I have no idea...nothing stays secret for very long when you have that many people working on it for this long, especially now that they are expanding their team.

Smed knows how to build interest and sell a product...unfortunately, those are his best skills. I hope he can deliver on this hype.

[stormlord]

Totally agree (and Thott had a great post pointing it out back in the day).

It's really surprised me that people have not understood the fundamental effect of movement speed, and have had to have it pointed out to them over and over again (I laboured to explain the point as a dev on other games, and those making the decisions neither understood nor agreed - so I'm left with the assumption that it must be a more subtle point than it appears to be to me).

Giving it away via ingame purchases or to everyone via mounts removes an element of RPG progression and possible class distinction that EQ got beautifully right. The same can be said for porting, healing, CC etc.
It has to do with the reliance on other classes. As EQ1 evolved, you can see how all the classes either adopted the abilities of other classes so that they were not as reliant on them or the feature that made them reliant was removed. This was done mostly because EQ1 was getting old and losing popularity and, as a result, there were not enough players for a healthy grouping population; especially for new or returning players. This led to the need for players to be able to solo better or to perform better in small groups.

I think there's another reason that's more subtle. Players might want more abilities because the class they're playing is not interesting enough. AS a matter of reason, this is why I enjoyed the hybrids so much in EQ1. I wanted to have lots of things I could do. If you're limited to only one or two things, it becomes boring. So by having more abilities available, you can stay interested longer.

[Gadwen]

This was done mostly because EQ1 was getting old and losing popularity and, as a result, there were not enough players for a healthy grouping population; especially for new or returning players. This led to the need for players to be able to solo better or to perform better in small groups.


I think the biggest influencing factor was the overall change in play style of the average player. Even on this server there is a lot of people who just want to solo so they can race to the top, really only settling for grouping 50+. Game mechanics can only take so much blame for the lack of community in MMOs now, this server (while it has a better community than a lot of games) is just more evidence of that imo.

Hell, I played L4D2 for a long time on a custom 20 player server that had a better community than most MMOs do now.

[fadetree]

The irony is that if you give players what they say they want, you ruin the game. They *say* they want it easier, better, faster, more powerful, more convenient...but if you give it to them, they get bored and wander off.

[Swish]

Just based on the thread title - wasn't there a time when awards meant something? When there weren't hundreds of different awards annually for the same industry?

[Gadwen]

The irony is that if you give players what they say they want, you ruin the game. They *say* they want it easier, better, faster, more powerful, more convenient...but if you give it to them, they get bored and wander off.

The accountants disagree.

[Swish]

The irony is that if you give players what they say they want, you ruin the game. They *say* they want it easier, better, faster, more powerful, more convenient...but if you give it to them, they get bored and wander off.

P99 would be a perfect example of it if everyone on here got what they wanted. There's a quote from nilbog somewhere about the server being some kind mutant creation if they implemented everything.

WoW just got stupid, still might look at an emulator for pre-Lich King but I was glad I quit :p

[OMGWTF420]

heard it all before, eqnext is vaporware

[Sirken]

how did EQNext show absolutely nothing, and win an award.

smells fishy

[Gadwen]

how did EQNext show absolutely nothing, and win an award.

smells fishy

Because the press that was invited to the private showing needs to show their gratitude and kiss SOE ass so they get invitations in the future.

[Alarti0001]

how did EQNext show absolutely nothing, and win an award.

smells fishy

They had a press showing. not a public showing.

[t0lkien]

Because the press that was invited to the private showing needs to show their gratitude and kiss SOE ass so they get invitations in the future.

This is actually pretty true. Games journalists are often fans as well, and get caught up in the hype and spin - and the coercion of exclusives in return for positive press. I don't trust any games sites, especially the bigger ones. Their bread and butter is dependent upon maintaining good relationships with the big companies. It's all pretty nepotistic.

However, it's going to be interesting to see what they saw that has them so pumped. I have a feeling they've been blown away by some sort of demo and/or preview footage that promises it's ingame but is actually specially scripted and modified for a focused press showing. Games companies do this all the time unfortunately. There have even been instances of builds being driven by programmers manually firing off scripts in response to the player's actions in the demo (remember the awesome boss fight in the D3 demo that never materialized in the final game?) We'll see though.

[kaleran]

Everything is conjecture, but the only thing that has me worried about EQNext is what the preview builds for EQ2 were. Back then they showed a world that basically looked like Oblivion/Skyrim, which individual animations for armor that 'fit' to the body. The final game didn't look anything like that.

I still played EQ2 for years tho. It just wasn't quite what they were showing in the early builds. But I still have faith in SOE's maturity. Their job with PS2 awards them that much from me.

[stormlord]

The irony is that if you give players what they say they want, you ruin the game. They *say* they want it easier, better, faster, more powerful, more convenient...but if you give it to them, they get bored and wander off.
Not true. All you gotta do is make them think you're making it easier, better, faster, more powerful and more convenient. Of course, with mudflation, you're limited somewhat in what you can do, but there're techniques they can use to reduce that effect. All they gotta do is understand player psychology.

People really do not fully consider the effect of declining populations, though. Companies panic when they start to lose popularity. As the numbers of incoming players go down and as mudflation wreaks havoc on the game, the quality goes down. The companies usually respond by giving the players easier access to the content and by copying what other games are doing. By copying what other games are doing they're ensuring that players who visit the game are less likely to feel like they're in unfamiliar territory. Essentially, games in decline will kill their own mother just to survive. And this is the ugly side, especially of big business.

Strangely, things are not always as they appear. Over the past 10-15 years I was led to believe that MMORPGs will only look more and more like WOW. They will degenerate and destroy all that's 'unnecessary' to the goal of addicting the player base. They'd become fancy slot machine games! Well, that's the feeling I HAD. However, I first played Wurm Online in July 2012. I gotta say that it impressed on me a feeling that surpasses Everquest 1. I first played Everquest 1 in March 1999. It burnt into my brain memorable moments. Even as I tried to play Ultima Online, I always felt drawn to Everquest 1 because of its 3d environment and more developed non-player world. But Wurm Online has created a sense of immersion I never felt in Everquest 1. That's mainly because the danger level in Wurm Online was higher, at least during my stay there, but it's more than that: everything in the world could be changed by the players. It truly feel like a breathing living world that slowly changed. It even had seasons. That moment when I stood on that hill, cold and frightened, in the clearcut and watched the stars and heard the wind is etched so permanently in my mind I will have to remember it for the rest of my life. NO moment in any other game has been so powerful. And I've had many similar moments in Wurm Online.

Wurm Online has a lot of grind because the skills aren't well fleshed out (and players like to grind, you know), but if you can stomach that part of it, this mmo sandbox is a beautiful gem.

Wurm Online is the spiritual successor to UO: Second Age and classic Everquest 1. But it too will grow old and degenerate. Even now I can see the "mudflation". I can see the age coming on.

No, immersion is not dead. It will be killed and resurrected forever, just as people die and children are born. I predict that in the future we will see game worlds far more complex and difficult than Everquest 1 was at its height. And I think that the line between 'game worlds' and 'worlds' is blurring too. It's hard to call these 'games'. They're more like fake realities than they're like games. You immerse in them and make another life. They're not there for you to have fun, they're there for you to create new unplanned experiences.

[Kope]

Bull, bull, bull. You are just repeating what the publishers are telling you. SoE is especially horrible with their F2P crap. When you watch game breaking bugs persist for weeks and 2 dozen new sweet cosmetic items roll out, you should really be happy that you can "play your way."

This all depends on how F2P is setup. How MMOs have generally set it up yes F2P is kinda ridiculous.

How F2P can work well? League of Legends. That system is brilliant. Yes the system can't be cut and pasted into EQN but it can be done similarly.

Look up Extra Credit's videos, they explain what to do and not to do in F2P quite well.

[Gadwen]

This all depends on how F2P is setup. How MMOs have generally set it up yes F2P is kinda ridiculous.

How F2P can work well? League of Legends. That system is brilliant. Yes the system can't be cut and pasted into EQN but it can be done similarly.

Look up Extra Credit's videos, they explain what to do and not to do in F2P quite well.

LoL and moba games in general are designed to facilitate new champs coming out every month, in fact it's a key feature and the only thing that keeps the game interesting long term. Skins are just that, skins. I don't hate F2P, and I don't hate the idea of micro transactions, but the way they are implemented...especially in MMORPGs.

"Cosmetic" items usually turn out to not be purely cosmetic, and it creates situations where if you want to play the high end game, you have to buy stuff from the shop with real cash to get there. This in itself wouldn't be terrible if the amount required to invest was reasonable, ie around the purchase price of the game + subscriptions. But that's not enough for them, they want you to sub, and buy expansions and buy stuff from the store if you really want to experience all the game has to offer. This...I will not do.

[Kope]

LoL and moba games in general are designed to facilitate new champs coming out every month, in fact it's a key feature and the only thing that keeps the game interesting long term.

I agree that the MOBA thing is all about the new champs being released, which is why I said they couldn't just cut + paste it in, but the skins are the real piece of work here.

Skins are just that, skins. I don't hate F2P, and I don't hate the idea of micro transactions, but the way they are implemented...especially in MMORPGs

"Cosmetic" items usually turn out to not be purely cosmetic, and it creates situations where if you want to play the high end game, you have to buy stuff from the shop with real cash to get there. This in itself wouldn't be terrible if the amount required to invest was reasonable, ie around the purchase price of the game + subscriptions. But that's not enough for them, they want you to sub, and buy expansions and buy stuff from the store if you really want to experience all the game has to offer. This...I will not do.

That's the thing though, Skins aren't anything but cosmetic. There are regular skins and then the Epic skins (or whatever they're called now). They don't add any power to the champs, they're purely aesthetical which is the entire reason I point to LoL as a good way to implement micro transactions.

Like I said before you can't just copy + paste what LoL does in an MMO, it just straight up won't work for anyone. What LoL does is allow people to purchase something with RL currency that they can easily purchase from just playing the game and building the in-game currency. Even when they purchase said item/champion it doesn't add power, it just unlocks an option (that even the champions are rotated free each week anyway).

The true trick of micro transactions is not allowing people to purchase power, but to purchase aesthetics and ease of play that they could have gotten in game, just with a little more elbow grease. People who buy LoL stuff know they don't HAVE to, to participate but do it for the ease and the option. This is where the win/win comes into play. The company can make money and the person knows exactly what they're getting and knows they don't have to buy it unless they really want to.

This is also where the sub comes in, LoL doesn't have subs. With MMOs and a proper micro transaction system in place you wouldn't need subs, but there will always be new expansions, and that's the MMO equivalent of new champions.

[Gadwen]

I agree that the MOBA thing is all about the new champs being released, which is why I said they couldn't just cut + paste it in, but the skins are the real piece of work here.



That's the thing though, Skins aren't anything but cosmetic. There are regular skins and then the Epic skins (or whatever they're called now). They don't add any power to the champs, they're purely aesthetical which is the entire reason I point to LoL as a good way to implement micro transactions.

Like I said before you can't just copy + paste what LoL does in an MMO, it just straight up won't work for anyone. What LoL does is allow people to purchase something with RL currency that they can easily purchase from just playing the game and building the in-game currency. Even when they purchase said item/champion it doesn't add power, it just unlocks an option (that even the champions are rotated free each week anyway).

The true trick of micro transactions is not allowing people to purchase power, but to purchase aesthetics and ease of play that they could have gotten in game, just with a little more elbow grease. People who buy LoL stuff know they don't HAVE to, to participate but do it for the ease and the option. This is where the win/win comes into play. The company can make money and the person knows exactly what they're getting and knows they don't have to buy it unless they really want to.

This is also where the sub comes in, LoL doesn't have subs. With MMOs and a proper micro transaction system in place you wouldn't need subs, but there will always be new expansions, and that's the MMO equivalent of new champions.

I know skins in LoL are purely cosmetic, but capes for example in EQ2 are not, even tho they pass off a lot of stuff as cosmetic, they do something else for your character as well.

Also, I don't know of any MMORPGs that have gone F2P that give you full character slots, have access to all items, or for many of them even use simple features like an auction house without subbing.

Just log into EQ2, expect the same and more in the next EQ.

[Kope]

I know skins in LoL are purely cosmetic, but capes for example in EQ2 are not, even tho they pass off a lot of stuff as cosmetic, they do something else for your character as well.

Also, I don't know of any MMORPGs that have gone F2P that give you full character slots, have access to all items, or for many of them even use simple features like an auction house with subbing.

Just log into EQ2, expect the same and more in the next EQ.

Giving you your full quote but going to talk about this:

Also, I don't know of any MMORPGs that have gone F2P that give you full character slots, have access to all items, or for many of them even use simple features like an auction house with subbing.

What I was actually thinking about is something I saw on EQ1 when I went back for a month to play it to see how it was. They have items that drop that change the aesthetic of that piece of armor to look a certain way (I think that's how it worked anyway, I never actually used them).

What you could do is allow people to buy a piece of armor from the shop with RL money and attach that to the piece of equipment you want the visuals to change for. It would be purely aesthetical and the people would have to purchase it again if they wanted to look the same way when they got a new piece of gear in the slot they had already purchased the aesthetic change for.

[t0lkien]

Wurm Online is the spiritual successor to UO: Second Age and classic Everquest 1.

I don't see how you can say Wurm Online is anything like EQ or UO. It's a sophisticated Minecraftesque world builder, not an RPG. It's a completely different genre IMO. It's like people who pimp Fantasy Star as some sort of EQ successor. They are so fundamentally different it's almost absurd to compare them.

[t0lkien]

Giving you your full quote but going to talk about this:



What I was actually thinking about is something I saw on EQ1 when I went back for a month to play it to see how it was. They have items that drop that change the aesthetic of that piece of armor to look a certain way (I think that's how it worked anyway, I never actually used them).

What you could do is allow people to buy a piece of armor from the shop with RL money and attach that to the piece of equipment you want the visuals to change for. It would be purely aesthetical and the people would have to purchase it again if they wanted to look the same way when they got a new piece of gear in the slot they had already purchased the aesthetic change for.

This is a perfect example of the negative effect of F2P and ingame purchases. It seems harmless right? The problem is that carefully designed piece of high end armor that someone spent months getting now is not unique looking. So you can no longer gauge the power or value of something from the way it looks, and you lose the value of the effort it took to get there, so you just undermined your entire game. Colours and detail - basic visual rewards - now mean nothing. This is game breaking, as it breaks the implied visual contract that undergirds all games. Now this contract can be broken, but the point is the breaks are exceptions and being exceptions gives them value (for example, a really weak looking item that is in fact potent, like the Mossy Twig). You can't have an exception unless you have a clear status quo.

Apart from that, it makes your world ugly. Everyone is running around in horrid colours (or all black, which is inevitably the most popular), and that talented, expensive Art Director just had his/her meticulous, carefully chosen colour palette and colour tagging made completely redundant. Colour is a language as powerful and subtle and expressive as any other, and by allowing everyone to mess with it you just made that language useless. It's now noise.

I'm telling you, F2P ingame purchasing violates games. You can't make it alright, no matter your careful justifications. In the end it's about money pure and simple, and nothing to do with fun, authenticity, or making games better.

[stormlord]

I don't see how you can say Wurm Online is anything like EQ or UO. It's a sophisticated Minecraftesque world builder, not an RPG. It's a completely different genre IMO. It's like people who pimp Fantasy Star as some sort of EQ successor. They are so fundamentally different it's almost absurd to compare them.
No it's not. You're thinking too strictly and not seeing the forest.

Wurm Online versus classic EQ1:
1) No in-game map
2) Corpse runs
3) Trains and tight aggro
4) Autoattack
5) Less hand holding
6) Night-time (you can turn up gamma, but it's still washed out)
7) Lose skill experience when you die (similar to losing level experience)

Wurm Online versus Ultima Online: Second Age:
1) Skill-based (not class-based)
2) Sandbox; cutting trees; making campfires; building houses; primitive ecology(!); nuff said!
3) No rules pvp on epic servers and semi-restricted pvp on Chaos
4) Boats; UO was famous for its implementation of boats

Wurm Online even has some basic quests. It steers away from the casual idea that everything has to have a symbol floating above it or a exclamation mark so you don't (by chance) miss it. So I may see a corpse in the distance while swimming and miss it because it's so small. And yet if I see it and then swim to it I might discover a treasure trove of old rotting gear that I'll be able to repair and take home with me. (This actually happened to me several times. Most of the time corpses only have 'less' valuable stuff left behind by the owner.)

I'll admit that Wurm Online doesn't have the deep lore and npc population that Everquest 1 had. It doesn't have nearly as many quests as Everquest 1 had. Almost all of its weapons/armour are player-made. Its dungeons are player-made (and yes creatures can be inside them; in fact, 'dungeons' are actually old mines).

Wurm Online doesn't have the recall/mark spells that were used in Ultima Online to travel across the map. It doesn't have the treasure chest quest maps, but it certainly has old corpses and items leftover from bygone era's that're LIKE treasure. There're official map dumps that show the whole world. So you can actually hunt down areas that look built up on the map and explore them for old treasure. It doesn't have the mini-map. Creatures don't "talk". There're no wandering healers. Dragons were a lot more common in Ultima Online.

Wurm Online does have hte ability to spawn at your (deeded) settlement if you die. And you may also spawn at any allied settlement on the map. But this teleportation only allows no-drop items to carry-over.

Wurm Online is less combat-focused than EQ1 or Ultima Online too. HOWEVER, there's still lots of combat and if you seek it you shall find it. Oftentimes, it finds you. Early on, you're much more defensive-minded. But as players get better they can hunt more. And on pvp servers there're sieging mechanics as well.

But you know what? These differences are minor to me. Wurm Online is a more advanced sandbox than Ultima Online: Second Age. That, combined with some of the mechanics you found in classic Everquest 1, makes it feel very much to me like a spiritual heir to them. It feels more like them than it does Minecraft.

I played Ultima Online and EQ1 for several years off and on. I know how they feel. I'm referring more to how they play than anything else. Minecraft is too soft without the hard edges. EQ2 doesn't have a sandbox and is also too soft. Vanguard-soh is too streamlined and wasn't developed in the sandbox direction. I wanted so much to see Vanguard-soh be THAT game, but it never came to be and instead became too cautious. There's a long list of MMO's that're somewhat similar to Wurm Online but they do not share similarities with classic EQ1 or old-style UO. Most MMO's out there have abandoned the tight aggro and corpse runs and no in-game maps and free-for-all pvp and various other mechanics associated with old EQ1 and/or old UO.

I expect Wurm Online to degenerate as it ages. It has been around since 2006 and you can see all of the things it has axed as it has aged. Despite all that, for now it has been amazing. My contention is that we will see games like this pop up now and then for eternity. It's just the way things are. I don't necessarily mean they have to have corpse runs for eternity, I mean they're dangerous and not friendly to players. Obviously, the normal is to treat players like they're royalty. This is especially true if a company feels desperate or greedy; like most do. So it's very hard to find a game like this where it's not ocd about being friendly.