Rogue hide and sneak being invis to mobs should be skill dependant

[Nirgon]

Now here's the proof I've been looking for on this one.

Your ability to be invisible to mobs when using hide + sneak on a rogue should be dependent on the level of your hide and sneak skill.


Source (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=3540):

Here's the general guide line, though I do not have the exact formula available:

Hide/sneek depends on the level of you and the guy that sees you. at low 30's an occasional Vampire Bat in Lower Guk would see through but now in my 40's not a one has seen me.


2002 here but, worth noting as it is close to the era.. and this didn't change since then

Hide/sneak does not depend on level, they are actually skills, like,say...Alcohol Tolerance. It's your skill level that decides it.)


Some report unable to hide from him...

Blue to a 33 rogue, sees through Hide/Sneak


Others report a success, again, based on level...

He does NOT see through hide. I killed EEs around him all day, and hid from him successfully over and over.


I should further note that the racial hides for non rogues should have a very low success rate.. and NOT give you invis to undead or be based on anything other than its base effectiveness at lvl 1.

Thanks for readin'.

[Scoresby]

Not sure, but I did make a level 1 rogue forever ago to walk all over Lower Guk to become familiar with the zone without incident. I also parked a L1 rogue in the temple in Kael to spy on Idol. Although I needed a raid to clear from Vindi forward I had no issue moving close at L1....which I think is normal for that area?

Two different time periods obviously. The latter I'm less sure of as I did use a raid to clear some of it. 100% positive I ran a L1 through lower guk way early though (before I knew the zone).

It was miserably slow moving and took a while to get hide/sneak to both work.

[Droog007]

I don't have any "proof", but I am quite certain that hide and sneak are simply on or off.

There may be cases where a mob sees through HIDE, but sneak is actually the deciding factor - sneak's effectiveness (if any?) in the frontal 90 may vary with range and level and skill, but in the rear 270 is either on or off.

[Nirgon]

bamp

Prolly needs more evidence but it is an immersive feature of the rogue class

[this user was banned]

http://web.archive.org/web/20010823015014/http://eq.castersrealm.com/creationguides/skilldetails.asp?Id=88&Class=Rogue&Category=Skullduggery

SNEAK/HIDE, By Fiely (7/16/2001)

I noticed that if I hide and Sneak at the same time I can move around invis from everything. I ran all the way to and through Keal on a lvl 3 rogue.

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HIDE, By Bamboozley (7/4/2001)

From my experience hide is much like a type of improved invisibility. For example, undead and NPC casters cannot see it, and I'm pretty sure that level doesn't have anything to do with it. But it does not fool every mob. In Sol B, I was able to hide and sneak from zone to the FG's (sonic bats scowled) and then the FG's who conned indif, killed me. Whatever.

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THE ULTIMATE IN CORPSE RETRIEVAL, By Maporfic (6/27/2001)

I play a 42 druid in a guild of over 70 chars, mostly over lvl 30. One of my very very smart guildies has a lvl THREE rogue that they use for corpse dragging from wipeouts on DRAGON RAIDS. Indeed, there is no lvl difference if a lvl 3 rogue can easily hide/sneak around a lvl 60 dragon. I have seen 6 people at a time go crying for coffins - blowing 200pp each to get a corpse back, when all they really needed was a low lvl rogue to prance in there (see invis mobs, do NOT see rogue invis) and drag out the corpses. Sheesh that would have saved the group over 1kpp. Not chump change at any level.
Anyways, word to the wise - keep a lvl 3 or better rogue alt handy if your doing dangerous zones. (BTW - there ARE mobs that see through rogue invis, so look up the zone before you decide to explore plane of fear ect.)


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HIDING FROM SPECTRE'S & GIANTS, By Pavlova, 24th rogue, erollisi marr (1/28/2001)

From Personal experience I can confirm that Hide for Rogues does not appear to have a limit to the difference of levels between you & the thing you are hiding from.
I have hidden from SG's & Specs in Oasis when I was only level 14/15 & have actually had a HG from West Commons stop ON me & still not see me, whereas I believe that with the Invis spells, the greater the level difference between caster & mob the more likely the mob is to see through the spell.
On other thing I've noticed is that if the puller in your group decides to pull, for example the entire Sarnak Fort, you can hide & not aggro any of the mob, even after they rest of the party have zoned, as long as you don't attack them.
This would have been my 2cp, but actually it's yours, I stole it :-)


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BETTER THAN INVISIBLE, By Balak (1/28/2001)

For Rogues, Hide gives the benefit of both Invisible and Invisible to Undead. Good if you hear a train coming since it works instantly, while the spells would have a casting time.

[this user was banned]

Can anyone confirm this is how it's working here?

I was able to hide and sneak from zone to the FG's (sonic bats scowled) and then the FG's who conned indif, killed me. Whatever.

[SamwiseRed]

what i DO remember is people making lvl 1 rogue alts to drag corpses out of the hole. so im thinking this may not be correct.

[Thulack]

I remember the level 1's for Kael to check on spawns.

[Furinex]

Having played a rogue on live from the beginning, the only time I ever felt screwed was when AA's came and brought SoS. It was like they nerfed us and made us earn what we already had back in AA's.

[Nirgon]

Most mobs in Kael are warriors btw :P

[Dullah]

Is sneak hide ever going to be fixed? Rogue sneak/hide was never just ivu+invis prior to AAs. I've seen evidence posted here in dozens of threads including lists from classic era that list every mob that could actually see lvl 60 rogue sneak/hide (it was like 6 other than a few dragons/gods). As someone posted here, the rog sos AAs were silly because thats when you had to earn back the abilities rogues naturally had during classic era.

Lets fix this, taking rogue ability to drag corpses and so forth is a huge bug.

[Dullah]

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2855

[Baxter]

I never played a rogue in classic, but right now sneak/hide just doesn't feel right. How can a class defining skill be equivalent to a 10p invis pot? I don't even use the skill at all anymore and just use crystal mask for gather shadows. It couldn't possibly have been working like this on live, just imo.

edit: its WORSE than a 10p invis pot because sneak/hide also slows you. No thx, id rather use other alternatives to it.

[Dullah]

Rogues do use sneak and hide together to move 'invisibly'... in fact better than invisibly in many cases. If you 'hide' without sneaking also, once you move you are unhidden. The order in which you hit sneak and hide are unimportant, except for when you are levitating in some manner. In that case you have to 'sneak' before 'hide' in order for hide to work. You can 'sneak' on the move, but must be still to start to 'hide'.

Many mobs will never see thru hide. Very very few mobs will notice you sneaking when you are behind them. Mobs that see invisible will usually have a 'chance' to see through sneak/hide. This chance is affected by difference in level between you and the mob, and also your skill rating, if not maxed once you get over level 39 or so (as a rogue).

This becomes more and more of a factor in higher levels. For the most part at lower levels something will either see you or not, and it will be consistent. Still, /con mobs to be safe. I know that some mobs that saw through my rogue's sneak/hide at level 50, don't now see through it when he's level 59. Also, some types of mobs can spawn able to see through sneak/hide, but do not always do so. Goos in City of Mist are one example.

Sneak/hide also renders you invisible to undead in most cases. /Con is your friend to find out when it doesnt.

You cannot start to sneak and hide underwater, but you can continue to sneak/hide from dry land into the water. Hurts in places like Kedge Keep.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/skills.html?skill=43

[Dullah]

After reviewing both p99 forums and the history of EQ on the internets I've found the vast majority of the misconceptions about how sneak/hide worked during classic era (launch-velious) seem to always be derived from the same false assumptions.

Assumption 1) a mob that sees thru low level racial hide must see thru rogue sneak/hide.
- they worked differently and sneak/hide effectiveness was also based on skill levels

Assumption 2) a mob that sees thru the sneak/hide of my level 30/40/50 rogue must see thru the sneak/hide of a level 60 rogue.
- again, sneak/hide power proven to have increased with level

Assumption 3) after Luclin, a mob that sees thru sneak/hide without SoS AA must have seen thru sneak/hide the way it worked prior to Luclin.
- though shroud of stealth may have provided better stealth than previous sneak/hide, normal rogue sneak/hide seems to have been nerfed at this point allowing mobs that did not previous see rogue sneak/hide to see in order to further increase the value of the SoS AA.

Assumption 4) because players see rogues using sneak/hide via see invis spell, mobs that see invis ability (not spell) must see thru sneak hide.
- Mob see invis ability did not work the same as the see invis spell.

These assumptions account for almost every disagreement I've seen both here and across the internet concerning EQ rogue sneak/hide ability over the last 14 years.

[Treats]

Assumption 5) Rogue believes mob does not see through Sneak and HIDE just because he is behind it, then wonders why his Sneak/Hide is broken when he moves into the frontal arc of the NPC.

[Dangermouse]

what i DO remember is people making lvl 1 rogue alts to drag corpses out of the hole. so im thinking this may not be correct.

This was a faction thing ... Brell worshiping halflings were not KOS to the elementals in the hole. There were places such a rogue couldn't go, even with sneak/hide - for example all (some of?) the undead would see right through it.

This is just my memory though, I'm prepared to be corrected.

[Ele]

Pre-Luclin Comments:

2000 Comment
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/DJgVUjqFFFU/ooFc7W1oYvwJ
A successful hide will make you invisible from nearly all living and
undead monsters. There are some mobs who can see through Hide itself,
but they are few and far between. Other than that, a plain 'see
invisible' spell will show up Rogues to other players.

2000:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/NX9pt6-xDnQ/DUd3h4Yu_qsJ

> My level 8 rogue, when coupling hide+sneek, was able to walk right past
>anything in my way. All of which con'ed red to me. It is my understanding
>that this is = to invisibility with the exeption you can actually loot
>without breaking it.

It is equal to Invisibility in that See Invisible will allow creatures / PCs
to see you.

Looting breaks Hide instantly, but it *doesn't* pop the button. You are no
longer hidden. Same thing applies for stripping your corpse. You can drag
your corpse without breaking Hide, but you cannot strip it.

Hide / Sneak combo works for anyone who has both skills. However, Rogues
get the bonus of a message saying when the skills work.

>>Note he is incorrect about non-rogue Halflings being able to move while sneaking AND hiding to the same effect as rogues
Halflings have both skills, but don't get the messages and can never
increase the skills. Thus, it's harder for a non-Rogue Halfling to invoke
the combo. It can be done, however. My L5 Druid went to HH. I did Sneak
until I was moving slowly (the proof that it was working), then I did Hide
until an Orc in view was Indifferent (the proof that Hide was working).
After that, I was able to slowly creep through HH to the Keep.

Hide / Sneak will make many creatures ignore you. However, it won't work
against higher-level Undead, some lower-level Undead, and many non-animal
monsters. My L18 Rogue has used Hide to look directly up at a Griffin,
because it will ignore me. However, Hill Giants have always (so far) seen
through it, so I stay well away from them. I also run from Deadly Black
Widows and Vampire Bats, because both will attack me on sight, whether or
not I'm using H/S.

2001
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/IPpkDSrTBrY/5NyioQZCS0MJ
Hide and sneak is vastly superior to any form of invisibility, with very
rare exceptions.

Hide and sneak is invis to living AND dead, nobody else can do that.

Hide and sneak never wears off (except zoning), all other invises (even
bards) do.

Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through regular
invis or IVU. Nobody puts on invis spells to pull corpses in Hate.

Some other comments from same thread:
> >
> > Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through
regular
> > invis or IVU.
>
> uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
> you will see a hidden rogue just fine.
Any creature of 'appropriate' level (whatever that may mean) has a tiny
chance of seeing through the S&H. In some areas caster mobs may buff
themselves or any other nearby mob with See Invis. Beware.


>uuh, you should say "sometimes" or "rarely". If you just cast see invis,
>you will see a hidden rogue just fine.

See invis works, and some creatures just innately see through it. Level and
skill have a lot to do with this. And there are exceptions. Ghoul Assassin
in Lguk will see a hiding rogue, but not one with IVU on.

But the fact remains, there are many, MANY creatures that cannot see a
rogue that will see everyone else.


2001
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/6_ZH1Qrftro/4hJ1jXYBXIoJ
One off the top of my head is Drolvargs. Drolvargs will aggro an Invis-by-
spell character if they're close enough and dawdle. A rogue can sneak
and hide (in front of) a Drolvarg all day and they won't notice.

Some critters that are "born" seeing Invis might not see a rogue
hiding. Any critter which CASTS See Invisible on itself and its
friends WILL see that rogue hiding, although you can still sneak
behind 'em.

Some other responses in that thread
Kobolds in Sol B apparently see through Invis. My rogue can go anywhere
in the kobold areas of Sol B without detection, including the front arcs. I
can't verify that kobolds see through invis, but when I claimed they didn't
(based on my rogue's experiences) I was plastered here so I assume they do.
8)

****
That's the rub. Some stuff is "born" seeing invisible. Hide may or may
not work on them. Kobolds in Sol B do NOT see through invis by
default, but many of 'em have a friendly neighborhood shaman come
by and cast See Invisible on them. That spell sees through everything.

If you're lucky and can stay out of the front arc you can still sneak,
however, but even monks can do that.

It's just like the frogs in Guk. None of 'em are spawned seeing
invisible except some of the named (frenzied, assassin, etc), but many
times if you happen to be near, for instance, an Urd Ghoul Wizard
you'll see one of his buffs being See Invisible. And he'll cast it
on all his friends nearby, too.


Post-Luclin and PoP comments:

2002 on Hide/Sneak system:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/4hGDuWtkKeQ/RJhtDjTf7eUJ

Some other S/H info.

It used to be that when someone cast a spell on you, you would be visible.
They have fixed that now so that buffage/healing doesn't affect your
visibility.

Some mobs see through S/H. Bats in Sol B, Assassin in LGUK, Dragons can
all see through S/H... HOWEVER, if you remain BEHIND the line of sight of
these mobs, you can stay alive. I love to see screenshots of brave rogues
standing behind dragons and other Boss mobs with only sneak on.

Sneak / Hide isn't as reliable against mobs many levels higher than you. If
your level 20 and the mob is level 40, there is a greater chance of you
becoming lunch.

Learn to con mobs with the "c" key rather than "right-click", if you
accidentally loot something, you will unhide and you will get creamed.

>>Would imagine this post meant "cannot start...while swimming"<<
You can start sneak/hide while swimming... but!... you can start on land and
then go into the water S/H, you WILL swim SAH (Slow as Hell) though.

Another 2002 comment:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/WAckle0jCyI/HDFONRmrF7gJ
Spell invis and just plain Hide isn't "real" invis, only, ONLY rogue
hide and sneak works on all non-see invis mobs. Thats
real invis, all other forms are a pale substitute.

2002:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/oY-7RDHQpxw/i77ZFWehOwcJ
Hide/sneak works against undead, and also against most things that see
invis. E.g., the goblin Wizards in Sol have no trouble seeing through my
50+ Wizard's invis, but my 7 Rogue hid/snuck among them with no problem at
all. When my Wizard had an accident in Lower Guk, my 7 Rogue had no trouble
walking past the undead to drag the corpse out. The bats in LGuk see
through it, though, so my Rogue got nailed when he went exploring after
dragging the corpse out.

2002
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/oY-7RDHQpxw/VegSou2-acQJ
That's because some mobs are just immune. Emperor Crush,
Ambassador D'Vinn, A Royal Guard, and Lord Darish all STILL
see through level 60 rogues' sneak/hide...and Emperor Crush
still aggros (as do bixie drones...but at least they don't see through
sneak/hide).

You took one mob's peculiarities (and some are just like that)
and let it sour you on one of the best parts of being a rogue.
Not only that, but there are some (very few) mobs that see
through Invisibility spells but not sneak/hide (Drolvargs come
to mind). Also, some caster mobs will buff themselves and their
friends with a See Invisible spell. It's only fair, and no different
than PC's in EQ's PvP worlds (where see invis is more useful
than enduring breath).

2002:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/oY-7RDHQpxw/zIAmR8cTMDgJ
>I kept reading how wonderful and necessary rogues were at corpse retrieval.

Well, in Kael, we suck. I HATE the see-invis only portions of Kael...even
places like Chardok where the dogs sometimes sniff you out, you can at least
work on pathing to sneak past. In Kael off the path, everything fucking
sees you and that's just anti-rogue coding as far as I see. But I am a bit
biased...

[Titanx]

Sneak/Hide was generally good against every mob in game except Bosses, and also any mobs who were able to see thru invis/ivu.

With the way it is now, there are too many creatures that now see hide/sneak that shouldn't.

[Dullah]

Some good stuff there Ele.

I've come across most if not all of those comments, and unfortunately I've come across a few comments that negate all of those quote (both in favor of better sneak/hide and against it), all from the classic (1999-2001) era.

This is why I've compiled the aforementioned list of misconceptions which I believe account for all of these conflicts and only serve to confirm the belief that rogue sneak/hide was much more powerful prior to Luclin than it currently is on p99. Almost all the exceptions that keep popping up are dated later than velious.

The evidence in favor of sneak/hide which does much more than just invis+ivu greatly outweighs that which is against it. Based on all the evidence, its apparent that rogue sneak/hide underwent serious changes with the introduction of AAs and luclin. Theres also some data to support the notion that certain mobs, perhaps from later expansions (ie kunark and velious), required a higher level of sneak/hide to move past undetected.

[Sundawg]

Pre Planes of Power, Hide did not protect you against see invis mobs. I do not remember having this discussion or I would have made it clear already. I played a Rogue for 10 years on live.

[Nirgon]

Rogean is absolutely correct.

However, check out a little bit on my skill based findings.

I had access to a rogue or two along the way and remember on my alts not being able to sneak/hide past things a higher level rogue could.

I would be very interested in Rogean's opinion there but it may be the case he didn't try sneaking around in zones that were much higher level.

I DO know that getting single pulls could be level dependant as when I hit 58 I could single pull the entrance of seb with non-damaging spells. Or I could pull the higher level frogs away from pack without aggroing the lower ones at that point.


With the way it is now, there are too many creatures that now see hide/sneak that shouldn't.

In my lurkings since the change, it looks like they hit the nail on the head tbh.

[Kender]

Rogean is absolutely correct.

However, check out a little bit on my skill based findings.

I had access to a rogue or two along the way and remember on my alts not being able to sneak/hide past things a higher level rogue could.

I would be very interested in Rogean's opinion there but it may be the case he didn't try sneaking around in zones that were much higher level.

I DO know that getting single pulls could be level dependant as when I hit 58 I could single pull the entrance of seb with non-damaging spells. Or I could pull the higher level frogs away from pack without aggroing the lower ones at that point.



In my lurkings since the change, it looks like they hit the nail on the head tbh.

Are you sure that wasnt due to agro radius?

The sneak/hide skill check should only performed when you click the buttons. the higher the skill, the more likely it works first time

A higher level rogue has a smaller agro range than a lower level rogue so although it appears that the higher level rogue sneak/hide is better it might just be that he wasnt close enough to the see invis mob to trigger agro.


As for brell halflings. the reason why they had to be rogues was the undead. they could walk past everything else, but had to sneak past the undead. Yael is one mob i believe that always sees rogues. not sure about others

[Dullah]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogean View Post
Pre Planes of Power, Hide did not protect you against see invis mobs. I do not remember having this discussion or I would have made it clear already. I played a Rogue for 10 years on live.
About 50 quotes from 1999-2001 exist on this forum alone that negate his memories. Fortunately for some of us, we actually remember the way it worked because we didn't play after Velious.

If staff is going to make their decision based on one players opinions in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, then I just don't know why we are wasting our time trying to work towards a more classic server.

[krazyGlue]

Sorry pal I played a rogue during classic . Sneak/hide never worked in places like seb . Becouse of the see invis mobs . But I do think there is to meny mobs that can see invis like in solb and the lower level zones but 1

[krazyGlue]

100% never worked in any plane . Or high level dungeon such as vp seb . Ect

[Dullah]

Cool story, but fortunately there are dozens, if not hundreds, of quotes from that era that disagree with you not to mention my personal memories of players dragging corpses right in front of mobs that saw my wizards invis. Many of which exist in this very thread...


2001
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt....Y/5NyioQZCS0MJ
Quote:
Hide and sneak is vastly superior to any form of invisibility, with very
rare exceptions.

Hide and sneak is invis to living AND dead, nobody else can do that.

Hide and sneak never wears off (except zoning), all other invises (even
bards) do.

Hide and sneak will make you invis to things that will see through regular
invis or IVU. Nobody puts on invis spells to pull corpses in Hate.

troll harder.

[Vandy]

NPCs that could see hide/sneak had a CHANCE to see through the rogue's sneak/hide, that chance was based on a Roll vs the Rogues skill and their Level from what I remember.

Level 60 Rogue in Seb vs a lvl 50 Rogue. The NPC that sees the lvl 50 Rogue may not see the lvl 60 Rogue.

[Cecily]

100% never worked in any plane . Or high level dungeon such as vp seb . Ect

The Hate portion of the rogue epic revolved around it working the planes. There were two mobs that saw rogues, Lichs and Scorn Banshees. Lich's dont even buff themselves with see invis here so they dont see. Plenty of the wrong mobs do though.

As far as the original post, hide = hide = hide. The only impact of higher hide skill was more success rate and higher evade chance. Same with sneak, more skill meant you would go sneak mode easier.

Skill had nothing to do with whether something saw you or not.

[Cecily]

NPCs that could see hide/sneak had a CHANCE to see through the rogue's sneak/hide, that chance was based on a Roll vs the Rogues skill and their Level from what I remember.

Level 60 Rogue in Seb vs a lvl 50 Rogue. The NPC that sees the lvl 50 Rogue may not see the lvl 60 Rogue.

That's completely wrong. Mobs had a chance to spawn with see invis.

[Holey]

That's completely wrong. Mobs had a chance to spawn with see invis.

confirmed

[Nirgon]

Yes there was the occasional "the see invis one was up".

Level based does need more more pushing. I'd doubt it was true, but I seem to remember something like that.

[koros]

Rogean is absolutely correct.

However, check out a little bit on my skill based findings.

I had access to a rogue or two along the way and remember on my alts not being able to sneak/hide past things a higher level rogue could.

I would be very interested in Rogean's opinion there but it may be the case he didn't try sneaking around in zones that were much higher level.

I DO know that getting single pulls could be level dependant as when I hit 58 I could single pull the entrance of seb with non-damaging spells. Or I could pull the higher level frogs away from pack without aggroing the lower ones at that point.



In my lurkings since the change, it looks like they hit the nail on the head tbh.

It was not level dependent. People used level 1 halflings to corpse drag the hole all the time.

Although, in retrospect that may have been due to brell faction

[koros]

Attempting to prove it wasn't so cut and dry as rogue invis = ivu+invis

Dated Feb 1, 2001: http://bcope1.www6.50megs.com/monk/guides/solb.html

Regarding normal invis:

"All monsters can see invisible, so corpse recovery can be a pain, plus you can't easily get to your destination without killing everything on the way"

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2855

Regarding rogue invis:

"List of Creatures That Can See Through Hide
Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)"

Less mob types could see rogues than could see other classes. There was substantial overlap tho.

[Velerin]

Rogue hide/sneak was never skill dependent. I remember well my main was a rogue til about 2001. Hide > invis + ivu but there were some mobs that saw thru hide. Pretty much all bosses, FGs, and then some random stuff. I remember well in Sol B that the see invis kobolds did not see hide but the sonic bats did see hide (I'd take a wrong turn in SolB pulling corpses and bam dead by bats). When trying to get to assassin room in Lower Guk (human rogue on VZ sneaking into darkie territory to ninja a DE mask, yay!) as rogue you could hide/sneak past everything except those damn vampire bats could see you unless you hugged wall really well or got lucky on ticks. (Bats seemed to hate rogues) In Plane of Hate a lot of see invis stuff didn't see hide but you had to watch out for liches and something else. You could make it all the way to the epic book drop with hide if you got lucky with spawns. Level 1 Brell rogues could pull corpses in the Hole because the elementals could see hide (but were good faction with you) but the undead (KOS) couldn't see thru hide. As others have posted I'm sure all this stuff has to be up on the Safehouse archives somewhere.

[Xelris]

Chiming in with my personal experience from live. I did not play a rogue, however I did have a close friend I leveled with on a constant basis.

-The rogue was able to perform CRs for us in Sol A, Sol B, Lower Guk, and Old Sebillis without issues, without assistance. This is because he
A)Knew exactly what to look out for and
B)There was a far, far smaller rate of see HIDE in these zones

He was not level 60. He was leveling along with us and after we collectively hit 60 our rate of needing CRs in seb went way down because we were used to the zone and our power levels had collectively gone up.

-The rogue had a HARD time CRing us in the following zones:
A)Dragon Necropolis (due to nasty traps)
B)Sirens Grotto (see-hide seahorses)
C) Plane of Hate / Fear (roving see-hide mobs)
D) Deep Old Sebilis. This means Fungal and Juggernaut areas, nothing before it posed significant risk (including the rassafrassin zone in!)

Really hoping this gets fixed, as it was one of the aspects of the rogue class I was looking forward to playing. As it is, my enc can initiate corpse recoveries better.

[Titanx]

This still needs to be addressed/fixed.

[koros]

I think a good way to solve this would be to level a rogue up on a live server to a decent level and do some reporting on old, mostly unmodified zones.

[Xelris]

I think a good way to solve this would be to level a rogue up on a live server to a decent level and do some reporting on old, mostly unmodified zones.

I could probably do this easily enough. Hide/sneak isn't based on skill level, it's a binary pass or fail. All that would be needed is for me to help a level 1 with the key quests briefly and then report as needed, unless I had to test planar zones. Cleric would rez and retest at will as well.

Would this suffice to help resolve this issue? As it is it feels like a whole sub-section of benefits to having a rogue in the group is completely nullified, not to mention the perk of zone exploration.

[koros]

I could probably do this easily enough. Hide/sneak isn't based on skill level, it's a binary pass or fail. All that would be needed is for me to help a level 1 with the key quests briefly and then report as needed, unless I had to test planar zones. Cleric would rez and retest at will as well.

Would this suffice to help resolve this issue? As it is it feels like a whole sub-section of benefits to having a rogue in the group is completely nullified, not to mention the perk of zone exploration.

Agreed it's a binary pass/fail, the only thing skill level ever did was help you hit the "pass" more often. I think a good test would be solb. I'm pretty damn sure the shaman kobolds didn't see rogue invis.

[Byrjun]

I think a good way to solve this would be to level a rogue up on a live server to a decent level and do some reporting on old, mostly unmodified zones.

The problem with this is the argument that sneak/hide was nerfed substantially upon the release of Luclin.

[koros]

I played a rogue... no it wasn't.

[Titanx]

The issue is that they made it where more mobs can now see through hide/sneak then it was ever like on live.

[kanras]

Bumping this one for myself.

[4WOFURY]

As stated many times in this thread, Rogue hide is not skill dependant vs what mobs see through it. The only thing skill effects is the rate of success (on)/fail (off), and if you are hidden, you are invis. There is no check afterwards; Verant was not that complicated or complex.

I, along with many other young rogues, remember hiding/sneaking to places to wait on loot drops such as the DE mask. I also remember exploring zones just to see new content long before I was supposed to be there.

[Nirgon]

Another mechanic missing here that might be somewhat related is being able to single pull more things based on being a higher level.

I could single pull at the least with non damaging spells when I dinged 58 from the zone in all the way down to the triple spawn with bug in seb.

The ability to single pull might some how over lap with level based hide/sneak or something for rogues.

But to be sure, yeah, 58+ was a badge of honor to be able to make these single pulls. Lots of green cons remain here that should agro regardless of level in dungeons too.... really a head scratcher of what ties it all together or how mobs are determined to behave one way or the other.

Not sure how any of that might be related if at all, but there is absolutely something involved with levels and agro. I don't even know where I'd look for research on something like that. I guess try doing that shit in seb on live with a lvl 51 then a lvl 60. Rogue sneak has probably been heavily changed, but I doubt agro mechanics have.

[lurk]

I remember sneaking a lvl 1 rogue to Zlandicar during velious. Skill just effects success rate and speed.

[kanras]

The potential skill-based functionality I've come across was specific to certain NPCs (I've seen mention of it for hill giants and vampire bats I think), not a global mechanic. So it wouldn't impact the ability to sneak/hide through the zones you guys are talking about.

[Dullah]

The potential skill-based functionality I've come across was specific to certain NPCs (I've seen mention of it for hill giants and vampire bats I think), not a global mechanic. So it wouldn't impact the ability to sneak/hide through the zones you guys are talking about.

Exactly.

The fact that some mobs never saw through hide doesn't mean its safe to assume all mobs that saw thru low level hide saw thru high level hide. Theres tons of quotes here and throughout these threads that show some mobs saw through hide but not thru high level rogue hide. At high levels, the words "never saw" are used time and time again.

[Axebeard]

duplicate information

[capco]

Fwiw, I also played a rogue during kunark/velious (stopped playing shortly after luclin) and I never remember these issues with sneak/hide.

I really don't understand why the devs don't just change/fix this, even if they aren't 100% sure that it's classic (even though there seems to be sufficient evidence to support such a change). Is 95% certainty not good enough?

You would permanently shut up all the rogues, the vast majority of whom say that rogue sneak/hide is nerfed.

There would be no negative repercussions involved with making such a change. The problem would just go away and no new problems would arise.

The only reasons I can see for not changing it is that the change would either be resource-intensive (which I doubt but it is entirely possible)... or that it would create a precedent so that other classes could get class-specific alterations, thereby opening up a can of worms (which I also highly doubt since I never see any posts about broken abilities for other classes).

This same argument also applies to pickpocketing.