Anyone tried EQLive with its 50 expansions?

[TarukShmaruk]

It's confusing and atrocious. Talk about feature bloat.

Makes me love this server even more.

(I do miss the caster focuses that came with Luclin on gear though. Was fun twinking with the low level gear that got focus effects)

[Thulack]

offline trading and agrometer were what finally did it for me. Some of the features were nice and i enjoying playing more then 1 toon just because it kept me busier but i didnt buy the latest xpac and never plan on it. I like it here to much and will like it even more once velious hits because that was the era i was more familiar with hunting and have more memories then kunark.

[TarukShmaruk]

I don't get how they could possibly make the spell effects so much worse compared to the original set which were simple and effective.

[Lemiddar]

I thought about it, but ultimately decided to come here instead. What do I miss? Well, the auto-combine tradeskill interface for sure. The only other thing is translocators. I was happy to take the boats a few times, but frankly I'm over it now. :D

I can't see myself ever going back. Even when I considered it.. it would have just been for a week to see what it was like, and no more. I left in 2004/5 for a reason. The game barely resembled what I enjoyed about Everquest. I came back for Combine, but that wasn't what I was hoping either.

I wonder how many people I knew on EQ still play. That's about as far as my curiosity with "Live" goes.

[Beaniron]

Really, the only thing I miss from Live were the Alternate Advancement skills, and that was because they added a new dimension of depth to each class once they were at the appropriate level, and gave you something to do with your experience after reaching the cap.

But I can live without it. Beastlords, on the other hand, I REALLY miss that class. Half Shaman, half Monk, all badass.

[khanable]

The only thing I miss from live is Legionnaire Scale Armor from the Plane of Hate.

[Beaniron]

The only thing I miss from live is Legionnaire Scale Armor from the Plane of Hate.

Well, if you wanna talk about equipment, there's two nice paladin items I miss, though I don't know what era they're from: Blade of Disruption, and Brightstar Buckler.

[khanable]

I should note I did dick around on Live not all that long ago.

For anyone wondering you can play the Test server free with all of the expansions included up to the newest one IIRC.

I played around in Dec. Made level 60-ish in about a day. Lol.

They have poison potions that add a proc to your weapon -- at 40ish it was about 600dd.

All stats were 255 with basic junk gear that drops off any mobs.

Funny shit.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I should note I did dick around on Live not all that long ago.

For anyone wondering you can play the Test server free with all of the expansions included up to the newest one IIRC.

I played around in Dec. Made level 60-ish in about a day. Lol.

They have poison potions that add a proc to your weapon -- at 40ish it was about 600dd.

All stats were 255 with basic junk gear that drops off any mobs.

Funny shit.

Welcome! Play Now! Enjoy Please Internet Game!



playing eq live is like clicking through an ad on a website. Or, just any random free game.

[zanderklocke]

I logged on and every zone I like was empty. Dumb.

[Nirgon]

Logged my old char on a few months ago.

Saw the orc models, spider models, what they did to South Ro.

What happened next to old classic Nirgon... was not for the faint of heart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kotNxb2YApk).

http://www.citrenz.ac.nz/bacit/0502/images/2006aung_03.jpg

[Sarius]

Defiant armor killed live. It was an absolute joke.

[Shocore]

The problem is that EQ listened to its players too much. I don't mean that game devs should ignore player feedback, but sometimes you have to dangle the carrot a bit to keep people playing, instead of giving them exactly what they ask for.

I quit playing after Depths of Darkhollow came out. You know, the expansion that added monster missions; where you could now theoretically reach max level without actually playing your actual character. Resulted in many people at high level with good gear who didn't know dick about how to actually play.

[Spacebar]

One decent thing about live is just getting on and exploring some of the zones. Many of the zones are shit, but there are still some cool ones to check out. You can also get on and familiariaze yourself with Velious zones before it comes out. Effing Siren's Grotto is confusing as shit to me, but I've been doing my monk's epic 1.5 for the hell of it and have been going to all kinds of zones while doing it.

[Visual]

Tho playing does not interest me, I wouldn't mind seeing images of the new boss mobs and BIS gear if anyone has them readily accessible. Always good for a laugh

[Thaeryn]

Yeah I hopped back onto EQ Live just this past week. After finding P99 I wanted to see if Live would be better since I still have some toons there. It has changed so much. Gear is ridiculous. Leveling is super fast with the new hot zones and mercs. The old world I loved so much is deserted. These are all the reasons I left in the first place.

I've been on WoW and EQ2 quite a bit. EQ2 is pretty, but the mobs are handed to you on a silver platter, and everything feels so linear. The world feels a millions times smaller than Classic EQ and there really are no interesting battles that I've seen so far. Granted I only played to mid 40's... but I remember seeing a whole lot more by mid 40's in classic.

I realize the things I loved most about EQ Classic was that you could discover little out-of-the-way NPCs to farm, dungeon crawls felt a lot more intense, and it feels like I had a lot more options to lvl up. The scarcity of good loot is definitely better for the game, IMO. In EQ2 you get amazing gear from quests that you can solo, but I much prefer EQ Classic's system. I love seeing the auctions in EC. I love saving my plat to buy my next piece of gear. I loved waiting for spells, too! I don't want new spells every level. Having to wait made it much more rewarding.

It may just be that since EQ 2000-2002 was my first MMO, that it would be my favorite, but I think even if I were starting for the first time, I would enjoy EQ Classic much more.

[AdamM01]

It may just be that since EQ 2000-2002 was my first MMO, that it would be my favorite, but I think even if I were starting for the first time, I would enjoy EQ Classic much more.

I agree, but that is coming from a stance of playing EQ first and I loved it. I think that the majority of people nowadays just want to play end game content. Most don't really care about getting to know their community or grouping, they just want max level and good gear to brag about. I think that most WoW, Rift, or other new MMO players would hate classic EQ if they played it now, only getting 1-2 levels after playing for a few hours.

That however, is what I loved about it. I had to group and get to know my fellow players to advance in the game. I personally think that any game is more fun with others to play with, I don't buy most of my games to play the single player, I like interaction with others.

I did try out EQ live back in December, I actually renewed my membership with them. I quit back in 2003 about 4 months after PoP was released, and then a brief 2 month stint when LDoN was released because I wanted to see what the instanced dungeons were like. I didn't like it, I enjoyed the realistic competition for mobs and camps. As for EQ live now, it is horrible, the community is virtually gone unless you are 90-100, which I am nowhere near. I was able to create a new Magician character and go 1-40 in about 2 days which is insane (playing only a few hours a day). Although I enjoyed going through old zones and reliving the best parts of EQ, it was way to easy and boring. I'm so happy I found project 1999, I have been playing for a couple days now and have a whopping level 4 mage and level 3 bard. Absolutely loving it.

[Vaildez]

The worst part of live is nobody groups and everyone is running around with a posse of multiple of their own characters... It's pretty much not the same game at all.

[t0lkien]

I jumped in just this week, and after the initial "hey, this is cool to be back" I spent most of my time chatting in General to catch up. Mercenaries, greatly increased experience gains (can max a character to level 100 in 4 days if you're keen), player quests that offer amazing gear reward and XP, instant travel everywhere via new veteran items, just totally outlandish item mods and augments and ... it was all too much. Everyone solos or molos and most of the game is an empty wasteland. EQ was always about difficulty, rewards that had to be really earned, and grouping (and guilds) i.e. the game forced you into community in a good way. The new EQ has utterly lost all that.

I spent the next few hours in chat reminiscing with some really old school EQ players about the pre-Luclin days of EQ. Then I realized, I really should be playing p1999. So here I am. And by the way, the Velious style UI is just awesomely minimalist and elegant compared to all the bloated nonsense that went on after it. I always missed it, and now I don't have to.

[TarukShmaruk]

^

It's just the result of massive mudflation. They have crammed so many features into a 15 year old engine that just wasn't designed to support it.

It's the same in WoW, honestly, which is on its 4th expansion pack and already feeling silly.

One thing EQ did right, I think, was keep the expansions relatively incremental - you didn't have massive gear resets every xpac, and ~tons~ of guilds were using new expansion power boosts to go raid older content they couldn't handle before. I know we used Omens of War & level 70 to get RZTW down and finally get into the EP.

And that was pretty fun. All raid content stayed relevant for a long time.

But it's time for an EQ3 - an EQ3 that captures the essence of EQ1 in a new engine and improves on it. Nostalgia is a very powerful sales driver - and IMO if they're smart they'll even try to recapture the cartoonish graphics from EQ1 rather than pursue the horrid plastic look they have in modern EQ and EQ2.

I mean how stoked would you be if you hopped into EQ3 and went to make an ogre/troll/dwarf/gnome/whatever and not only could you easily identify the EQ1 influence on the models, but they even had facial options that were similar to ones from EQ1?

[t0lkien]

I've done a bit of reading and listening about EverQuest Next and... it's going to be another cup of fail I think. The very big problem is that the people making these games no longer understand what made them great in the first place. They are designing them by committee via marketing, and it's a complete cluster of second guessing and ego driven mediocrity in the end. I say this as someone in the industry who has watched it all happen up close many times - so many times I just bail at the first smell of it now. People disdained Brad McQuaid for his at times infuriating and arrogant "vision", but he had one. And it shows.

EQ got it right in all the big ways (as did UO I hear, though I never played it). WoW, while starting off great, has destroyed the entire genre for a while. WoW did some very good things, but it's just visually, narratively, mechanically, and thematically a vile and vomitous mass now. I hesitate to say it's a game for people with no taste, a bloated sense of entitlement, and no experience of much else besides cheeseburgers, straight to DVD action movies, and miles and miles of inch deep, because that's probably not true. It just feels like it's true.

What they need to do is remake the original EQ with modern tech and some UI/functionality improvements, some mechanical improvements, and maybe some new extensions on old areas, but keep the feel the same. That is a game a large niche of dedicated players would upgrade their systems just to play. SoE have already talked themselves out of that idea with EQ Next, as was inevitable because they really don't understand it, and never did IMO. I believe it's individuals who make these things great, and EQ was lost as soon as Verant sold to Sony, and then Brad inevitably quit later on.

[TarukShmaruk]

I've done a bit of reading and listening about EverQuest Next and... it's going to be another cup of fail I think. The very big problem is that the people making these games no longer understand what made them great in the first place. They are designing them by committee via marketing, and it's a complete cluster of second guessing and ego driven mediocrity in the end.

I say this as someone in the industry who has watched it all happen many times. EQ got it right in all the big wasy (as did UO I hear, though I never played it). WoW, while starting off great, has just destroyed the entire genre for a while. WoW did some very good things, but it's just visually, narratively, mechanically, and thematically a vile and vomitous mass now. I hesitate to say it's a game for people with no taste or experience of much else, but that's probably not true. It just feels like it's true.

WoW is still AAA in a lot of ways - especially production values. It's just that the 'hold your hand theme park' has grown quite stale.

It's funny how things people want - including myself - ultimately end up sucking the life out of the game. Flying mounts mean everyone is just soaring through the sky. Raid Finder means I log in, do some ridiculously easy pug raid bosses, get bored and quit.

But, as to the rest of your post, I think SOE has proven it can still succeed with PS2.

You're right that EQ3 could just end up being a massive fail, and Smed/Brad egos play a huge factor. Yes, they learned a big lesson when they got their asses kicked by WoW, but that doesn't mean they won't find some other dumb game mechanic to staunchly say "you're in our world now" about

[RevengeofGio]

offline trading and agrometer were what finally did it for me. Some of the features were nice and i enjoying playing more then 1 toon just because it kept me busier but i didnt buy the latest xpac and never plan on it. I like it here to much and will like it even more once velious hits because that was the era i was more familiar with hunting and have more memories then kunark.

Yeah I spent a lot of time in Velious... I love snow areas too :(

Lots of fond memories.

[mostbitter]

Welcome! Play Now! Enjoy Please Internet Game!



playing eq live is like clicking through an ad on a website. Or, just any random free game.

yeah this is definitely true, every few levels they try to sell you something else.

[RevengeofGio]

I've done a bit of reading and listening about EverQuest Next and... it's going to be another cup of fail I think. The very big problem is that the people making these games no longer understand what made them great in the first place. They are designing them by committee via marketing, and it's a complete cluster of second guessing and ego driven mediocrity in the end. I say this as someone in the industry who has watched it all happen up close many times - so many times I just bail at the first smell of it now. People disdained Brad McQuaid for his at times infuriating and arrogant "vision", but he had one. And it shows.

EQ got it right in all the big ways (as did UO I hear, though I never played it). WoW, while starting off great, has just destroyed the entire genre for a while. WoW did some very good things, but it's just visually, narratively, mechanically, and thematically a vile and vomitous mass now. I hesitate to say it's a game for people with no taste or experience of much else besides cheeseburgers and straight to DVD action movies, but that's probably not true. It just feels like it's true.

WoW pre BC was an amazingly fun experience. I hope in my heart of hearts that EQ Next does a great job.

[Droog007]

But it's time for an EQ3 - an EQ3 that captures the essence of EQ1 in a new engine and improves on it. Nostalgia is a very powerful sales driver - and IMO if they're smart they'll even try to recapture the cartoonish graphics from EQ1 rather than pursue the horrid plastic look they have in modern EQ and EQ2.

I mean how stoked would you be if you hopped into EQ3 and went to make an ogre/troll/dwarf/gnome/whatever and not only could you easily identify the EQ1 influence on the models, but they even had facial options that were similar to ones from EQ1?

^^^T^^^H^^^I^^^S^^^

I just had my first thisgasm...

[t0lkien]

WoW pre BC was an amazingly fun experience. I hope in my heart of hearts that EQ Next does a great job.

I agree for the most part. Beta and Vanilla were fantastic, and made a great contrast for me to the then dying and dreary mess of what EverQuest had become in Luclin and beyond.

[fadetree]

No large corporation will ever make a game that is not more of less like EQ now or WoW or Rift or blah blah blah <insert any modern mmo >.

The reason is that they don't care about a niche of gamers. They don't even care about the game, really, except as a vehicle to glue a bunch of eyeballs to the screens for a while for yet another chance to sell them crap. I'm starting to think its all about the money!

The only chance for an actual game is for a very small company to produce it. But, even then, it takes a LOT of cash to get it rolling. All that cash is afraid. That cash is afraid that mean people who want to add hard stuff to the game will make it actually difficult.

[Nune]

It's just "chasing the dragon" .. P99 will never be the Classic experience you remembered, and logging on live will never bring back the memories you want. EQnext is doomed I've always said. EQ2 was fun, the first MMO I neckbearded and was a "leet" dude in, but it just felt nothing like an EQ game. The purist crowd here only serves to get buttuhurt. We'll wait a few more years, and EQNext will launch, you'll run to some dock and get to click port somewhere and everyone will make posts about how lazy and not-EQ everything is.

[Vaildez]

From what I read about EQN they want the game to be more of a sandbox which I think is good and include a lot of elements from the original EQ. I thought EQ2 was a good game but it was nothing at all like the original. I think there are enough players like me that are sick of how current MMO's are built for those with ADD. I want to see the high risk/high reward back in games!

[Nune]

From what I read about EQN they want the game to be more of a sandbox which I think is good and include a lot of elements from the original EQ. I thought EQ2 was a good game but it was nothing at all like the original. I think there are enough players like me that are sick of how current MMO's are built for those with ADD. I want to see the high risk/high reward back in games!

I'll tell you one thing it won't be, and that's a sandbox. This was one of the driving ideas behind Vanguard to "make big zones, realistic zones" and that shit flopped. They've already rebooted the entire graphics and texturizing engines for EQNext since the last time they showed it publicly. I'm sure at this E3 the shit they show will look just a like/ similar, but when you're pushing a game into alpha and you're rebooting the art style of your game, to me, says that as usual this is 1 game being seperatly made by all the teams required to launch one, not everyone working together.

EQ has so much "feel" and character because it was 1 guys vision put to reality through a team of people who believed in it. That just won't happen anymore, you can't appease old school EQ1 people, new MMO people, and 14 year old asian kids at the same time. 3 purchasing markets, with 3 100% different desires from this game. Obviously, the bigger sect will get the larger chunk of wishes met, and that's def not us.

[Vaildez]

I'll tell you one thing it won't be, and that's a sandbox. This was one of the driving ideas behind Vanguard to "make big zones, realistic zones" and that shit flopped. They've already rebooted the entire graphics and texturizing engines for EQNext since the last time they showed it publicly. I'm sure at this E3 the shit they show will look just a like/ similar, but when you're pushing a game into alpha and you're rebooting the art style of your game, to me, says that as usual this is 1 game being seperatly made by all the teams required to launch one, not everyone working together.

EQ has so much "feel" and character because it was 1 guys vision put to reality through a team of people who believed in it. That just won't happen anymore, you can't appease old school EQ1 people, new MMO people, and 14 year old asian kids at the same time. 3 purchasing markets, with 3 100% different desires from this game. Obviously, the bigger sect will get the larger chunk of wishes met, and that's def not us.

This was a recent conversation about the game. In an interview the Dev discussed interacting with the environment i.e. using a fire spell to burn down a forest.

"After several months of working together with Sony Online, we can finally reveal that we are collaborating on EverQuest Next," the post reads. "EQN is 'the biggest sandbox ever designed' and we are extremely happy to be working on the most innovative MMORPG under development."

[Briscoe]

...I wouldn't mind seeing images of the new boss mobs and BIS gear if anyone has them readily accessible. Always good for a laugh

I was looking at the last updates from the Legacy of Steel archive, dated 2005, and you already had items that were adding 350+ points to mana and HP, with multiple effects, modifiers, etc. I don't see how modern expansion content doesn't have items adding over 1000+ at this point.

[Nirgon]

One good part of coming back was talking to CSR and hearing "Damn! When was this thing created? This one's a relic!"

[Swish]

The worst part of live is nobody groups and everyone is running around with a posse of multiple of their own characters... It's pretty much not the same game at all.

This, and if boxing was allowed here you'd see people leave in droves.

No idea if the EpicEmu server is still running but I couldn't bear seeing it :(

[TarukShmaruk]

Devs are learning that sandbox MMOs get the best bang for buck - the long term costs of continually developing quality content like wow expansions and raids are very high.

On the other hand a good sandbox game will have player driven content, much like UO, and this becomes more profitable in the long term.

[Gadwen]

But it's time for an EQ3 - an EQ3 that captures the essence of EQ1 in a new engine and improves on it. Nostalgia is a very powerful sales driver - and IMO if they're smart they'll even try to recapture the cartoonish graphics from EQ1 rather than pursue the horrid plastic look they have in modern EQ and EQ2.

I mean how stoked would you be if you hopped into EQ3 and went to make an ogre/troll/dwarf/gnome/whatever and not only could you easily identify the EQ1 influence on the models, but they even had facial options that were similar to ones from EQ1?

If there ever was a game modeled after EQ they would model it after the most popular era, which unfortunately for us...was after PoP.

There are a lot more people out there who see WoW and post PoP EQ when they think of MMOs than see classic EQ.

[Thulack]

I've done a bit of reading and listening about EverQuest Next and... it's going to be another cup of fail I think. The very big problem is that the people making these games no longer understand what made them great in the first place. They are designing them by committee via marketing, and it's a complete cluster of second guessing and ego driven mediocrity in the end. I say this as someone in the industry who has watched it all happen up close many times - so many times I just bail at the first smell of it now. People disdained Brad McQuaid for his at times infuriating and arrogant "vision", but he had one. And it shows.

EQ got it right in all the big ways (as did UO I hear, though I never played it). WoW, while starting off great, has destroyed the entire genre for a while. WoW did some very good things, but it's just visually, narratively, mechanically, and thematically a vile and vomitous mass now. I hesitate to say it's a game for people with no taste, a bloated sense of entitlement, and no experience of much else besides cheeseburgers, straight to DVD action movies, and miles and miles of inch deep, because that's probably not true. It just feels like it's true.

What they need to do is remake the original EQ with modern tech and some UI/functionality improvements, some mechanical improvements, and maybe some new extensions on old areas, but keep the feel the same. That is a game a large niche of dedicated players would upgrade their systems just to play. SoE have already talked themselves out of that idea with EQ Next, as was inevitable because they really don't understand it, and never did IMO. I believe it's individuals who make these things great, and EQ was lost as soon as Verant sold to Sony, and then Brad inevitably quit later on.
What made EQ great was that for many of us it was our first MMORPG or atleast 2nd or behind UO. It was the thrill of something new and challenging. No one will ever make a game again that was a challenging as EQ was in 1999 because it was a whole new world and no one really had any idea what to expect. Eq players brains are wired differently then most MMORPG players because we like(d) the challenge and sense of new that EQ brought. No other game has been able to reproduce that for me and many others and none will because its not capable of being done.

[Droog007]

What made EQ great was that it rode you hard and put you up wet.

Today's gamers prefer to be trotted around the corral for a few minutes at a time, and indulged on apples and oats.

[kotton05]

Can only hope for EQ next. D3 showed how bad you can fail.

They just need to make it like EQ classic with graphics upgrade and very similar zones... some new ones. If they want a large player base include a few new type mechanics but keep it minimal so the old school players don't feel like wtf easy button.

[Gadwen]

Can only hope for EQ next. D3 showed how bad you can fail.

They just need to make it like EQ classic with graphics upgrade and very similar zones... some new ones. If they want a large player base include a few new type mechanics but keep it minimal so the old school players don't feel like wtf easy button.

The sad truth is that old school MMOers are far far outnumbered by people who have never experienced anything but easy MMOs, we just have to accept that we will never be the target demographic of another big budget game.

[AdamM01]

The sad truth is that old school MMOers are far far outnumbered by people who have never experienced anything but easy MMOs, we just have to accept that we will never be the target demographic of another big budget game.

Very sad but true. There is a reason P99 had to be created independently. No major developer really cares enough to bring challenge back to a game, what would that create for them? Certainly not a huge profit (which is what they want), all they would get is complainers that the game is too hard and that their subscribers don't have the time to sit down and grind out levels and gear. People would quit because they want things easy and they want to be able to show off their fancy looking gear, not actually put in the major game time to get it.

Most are more concerned with graphical content and user friendliness nowadays (why do you think the iPhone is so popular?). It doesn't matter that the content of the game is shitty or that the game is easy, just as long as they can achieve the highest level and cool gear. Sucks, but that's just how it is.

[Sarius]

The bazaar also killed live for me, hanging out in the tunnel and selling shit was half of the fun of the game.

[t0lkien]

The bazaar also killed live for me, hanging out in the tunnel and selling shit was half of the fun of the game.

Agreed. I worked on an MMO with a guy (who was lead designer) who was so intimidated by the genre that while "trying" WoW, he freaked out because someone was following him. He literally freaked out. It was an NPC from a guard quest he had just picked up. I tried to show him EQ and he pretty much threatened to sack me for even looking at it (not that he had the power) because it was everything he hated about games. The company's GM hated MMOs, and thought he could rescue the genre for the "normal" people. You can guess how that all worked out. That guy was a good designer by the way, he just shouldn't have been anywhere near an MMO.

This is what is happening - MMOs are being designed to the lowest common denominator by people who like the idea of them (abstractly), but have no clue, and money people who dream of the billion dollar gravy train. I'm not saying that was the reason for the bazaar being implemented, but it was the thin edge of a really nasty wedge. They probably didn't realize that at the time though. Things can look good on paper and end up being bad once implemented.

All that to say, it's *totally* possible to make a game on the same level as EQ and for it to be successful - CCP have proved that. You just can't make it for any other reason except you want to play it, and you want it to be great, and you understand that you won't be mass market and don't care. I was at E3 in 2003 and tried to interview the guys from CCP for a website at the time. There was a bit of a buzz about them. But I couldn't get even 5 minutes. They weren't interested in the media. They didn't care what people thought, or to jump through any hoops. They were certain of their own direction and screw the rest of the industry and the way it did things. I remember thinking they were either going to be spectacular failures, or maverick successes. And they succeeded, because they loved what they were making.

I wouldn't be surprised if another EQ is being made right now actually, but by an independent. If not, I know one is being designed and pitched ;)

[fadetree]

One suggestion, should anyone be listening who might have any creative input on a game being pitched...

Keep the mechanics a mystery for the most part. Don't put numbers all over everything. Don't clearly label stuff with exact game effects. Don't give everything categories and colors and statistics and countdown timers.

Oh, and kill people hard when they mess up.

[webrunner5]

Yeah, but most of you "knocking" EQ live is that the game has been going 14 years. So you want Sony to do nothing for 14 years. Hell people on here are bored shitless now. Ok Velious will come out, then what? A year from now everybody will be bored shitless again. And guess what that is the end. People are crazy as hell. :eek:

[Nirgon]

Hell people on here are bored shitless now.

No.

There's nothing out now.

And after something does come out, and we get tired of it, we come back here.

We fly. No lie. You know this.

[big league chew]

BALLIN

no i played last night tho live still sux

[Gadwen]

Yeah, but most of you "knocking" EQ live is that the game has been going 14 years. So you want Sony to do nothing for 14 years. Hell people on here are bored shitless now. Ok Velious will come out, then what? A year from now everybody will be bored shitless again. And guess what that is the end. People are crazy as hell. :eek:

I don't think anyone expects an MMO dev to do nothing for 14 years. But it's a completely different game now, do you really expect people who play on P99 to NOT knock Live? It's the exact opposite of what people here want from an MMO. You are on the wrong forums if you are seeing something you didn't expect.

[TarukShmaruk]

I don't think anyone expects an MMO dev to do nothing for 14 years. But it's a completely different game now, do you really expect people who play on P99 to NOT knock Live? It's the exact opposite of what people here want from an MMO. You are on the wrong forums if you are seeing something you didn't expect.

MMO's that have gone on that long always look like ass.

The engine gets stale and they tack on too many features as selling points for expansions and it becomes a giant clusterfuck.

EQ Live is a great example of this. UO is a great example of this.

There's something to be said for simplicity - in UI, in gear stats, in damage numbers, in abilities. One thing EQ did really well for its first several expansions was keep things simple - some more spells, some more disciplines (very much needed to keep melee from being so boring), and minor mudflation.

WoW is starting down the path of 'too much crap' - ever tried WoW PVP in the latest expansion? In the early days you knew what people were capable of because everyone had a set of abilities, now it's just shit going off everywhere with procs and instant casts and cooldown abilities and it's just blah.

[Arterian]

I can promise you they will not make EQ1 with better graphics.

They are going to invest more money in market research than the game itself, determine that WoW is the most profitable MMO ever, and build a WoW clone in Norrath.

Game over.

[Gadwen]

I can promise you they will not make EQ1 with better graphics.

They are going to invest more money in market research than the game itself, determine that WoW is the most profitable MMO ever, and build a WoW clone in Norrath.

Game over.

You forgot one detail, a WoW clone with micro transactions.

F2P is shitting all over this genre.

[TarukShmaruk]

You forgot one detail, a WoW clone with micro transactions.

F2P is shitting all over this genre.

Actually F2P is allowing games to succeed and thus financial investment incentives for new games to be made.

It lets people with money (but no time) pay for the development that the pure F2Pers get to take advantage of.

[Arclanz]

...They are designing them by committee via marketing, and it's a complete cluster of second guessing and ego driven mediocrity in the end.

...People disdained Brad McQuaid for his at times infuriating and arrogant "vision", but he had one. And it shows.

...I believe it's individuals who make these things great...

Great post. Highlighting parts I especially agreed with. Whenever a committe tries to please the masses, everything gets washed over and watered down = sucks for everyone rather than being epic for some.

[Vondra]

I don't know what EQnext will be like but I don't think it's going to be another straight themepark.

Those types of WoW clones have been doing consistently badly for several years now and I think people have noticed.

[t0lkien]

Actually F2P is allowing games to succeed and thus financial investment incentives for new games to be made.

It lets people with money (but no time) pay for the development that the pure F2Pers get to take advantage of.

Actually, I know this is the theory, but that's not how it works. Games are designed from the ground up for F2P so that the design is fundamentally changed by the F2P element. It ruins good games. Designers can no longer come up with an idea they think will be fun, they have to come up with ideas that can be monetized. Trust me on this, it's )&*)*ing awful, and creates poor gameplay (which is the real point). As a designer you are no longer concerned with creating fun, delight, depth, charm, joy, challenge etc. You are forced to shoehorn any idea into the format of how it can be leveraged to get the player to spend money on it.

That, my friend, is the death of gameplay as we know it (and one of the reasons the industry is imploding right now, and studios closing down left, right, and center).

[TarukShmaruk]

Actually, I know this is the theory, but that's not how it works. Games are designed from the ground up for F2P so that the design is fundamentally changed by the F2P element. It ruins good games. Designers can no longer come up with an idea they think will be fun, they have to come up with ideas that can be monetized. Trust me on this, it's )&*)*ing awful, and creates poor gameplay (which is the real point). As a designer you are no longer concerned with creating fun, delight, depth, charm, joy, challenge etc. You are forced to shoehorn any idea into the format of how it can be leveraged to get the player to spend money on it.

That, my friend, is the death of gameplay as we know it (and one of the reasons the industry is imploding right now, and studios closing down left, right, and center).

It doesn't create poor gameplay when people pay out the ass for cosmetic things and minor boosters.

[t0lkien]

It doesn't create poor gameplay when people pay out the ass for cosmetic things and minor boosters.

In F2P (or P2W) games, every part of that game is a carrot to get you to spend money. It has to be that way. Almost every aspect of the design is intentionally plugging into psychological elements - the same ones that get people addicted to slot machines by the way, and is the reason slots are now implementing lots of RPG elements. This is why there is so much discussion about "Skinner boxes". There are lots of articles online about this for anyone who wants to read about it.

You cannot have a game like the original EQ within that model, because it's intentionally difficult, slow burn, challenging, subtle, and long term. It plays on foreshadowing, delayed gratification, and rewards genuine thought and effort. You don't get a trophy just for turning up. There are so many touches of "unreasonable detail" because it was for the most part a labour of vision and love. The difference is clear for anyone who loves games and RPGs in particular, and it's the same in all works of creativity.

F2P games can't do that. Their game mechanics can't do that. Their reward schemes can't do that. Honestly, it affects absolutely everything from art style to time between level ups, to the layout of geometry. It's built upon instant gratification and ADD attention spans. There is nothing, in the end, that is untouched by the single-minded pursuit of mass market mediocrity and profit.

So, by its nature it can't create anything but shallow, mercenary, exploitive, manipulative gameplay - which is the antithesis of good gameplay. And it can't do anything but undervalue ingame effort and reward. Buying game progression devalues everything about that game, and cheapens it irreversibly. It is the death of everything that under-girded RPG games, and people are just beginning to realize it en masse, and stop handing over money to it. They've been tricked, and they see it. The games industry is imploding right now, as I've said. In the past few months dozens of studios have closed, some major. Zynga, that abortive mess of a Skinner box shop, just laid off 500 employees. Most of my ex-colleagues are out of work - all over the world. So much about games is crap right now, and this coercive F2P philosophy is a big part of the reason why.

Great post. Highlighting parts I especially agreed with. Whenever a committe tries to please the masses, everything gets washed over and watered down = sucks for everyone rather than being epic for some.

Thanks man. For my part, it's really been heartening to read the posts here showing that there are lots of people who feel the same way. There's this saying that a camel is a horse designed by committee, and it's brutally true.

[TarukShmaruk]

In F2P (or P2W) games, every part of that game is a carrot to get you to spend money. It has to be that way. Almost every aspect of the design is intentionally plugging into psychological elements - the same ones that get people addicted to slot machines by the way, and is the reason slots are now implementing lots of RPG elements. This is why there is so much discussion about "Skinner boxes". There are lots of articles online about this for anyone who wants to read about it.

You cannot have a game like the original EQ within that model, because it's intentionally difficult, slow burn, challenging, subtle, and long term. It plays on foreshadowing, delayed gratification, and rewards genuine thought and effort. There are just so many touches of "unreasonable detail" because it was for the most part a labour of vision and love. The difference is clear for anyone who loves games and RPGs in particular, and it's the same in all works of creativity.

F2P games can't do that. Their game mechanics can't do that. Their reward schemes can't do that. Honestly, it affects absolutely everything from art style to time between level ups, to the layout of geometry. It's built upon instant gratification and ADD attention spans. There is nothing, in the end, that is untouched by the single-minded pursuit of profit.

So, by its nature it can't create anything but shallow, mercenary, exploitive, manipulative gameplay - which is the antithesis of good gameplay. And it can't do anything but undervalue ingame effort and reward. Buying game progression devalues everything about that game, and cheapens it irreversibly. It is the death of everything that under-girded RPG games, and people are just beginning to realize it en masse, and stop handing over money to it. The games industry is imploding right now, as I've said. In the past few months dozens of studios have closed, some major. Zynga, that abortive mess of a Skinner box shop, just laid off 500 employees. Most of my ex-colleagues are out of work - all over the world. So much about games is crap right now, and this coercive F2P philosophy is a big part of the reason why.



Thanks man. For my part, it's really been heartening to read the posts here showing that there are lots of people who feel the same way. There's this saying that a camel is a horse designed by committee, and it's brutally true.

Just because lots of companies have made shitty cash-in F2Ps doesn't mean there aren't any good ones - look at LoL ; it's a huge success.

Cosmetics alone make up a huge portion of income because people always want to look special.

[t0lkien]

I don't mean to say there are no good F2P games, maybe there are. I wouldn't know because I despise the entire idea where MMOs are concerned, but people keep telling me there are good ones so I have to defer to that. I can say every one I've played, every previous subscription game that went F2P, has been mediocre at best (and in that regard EverQuest is a good example, though it was dying before that for other reasons).

I can also say the money grabbing philosophy behind them has negatively impacted the games industry, and games in general. And that's being thoroughly diplomatic about it ;)

... and I'll shutup now.

[webrunner5]

I don't think anyone expects an MMO dev to do nothing for 14 years. But it's a completely different game now, do you really expect people who play on P99 to NOT knock Live? It's the exact opposite of what people here want from an MMO. You are on the wrong forums if you are seeing something you didn't expect.

I have said it on the Forums before. You can play the Test server. Get everything for free there. you DO NOT have to use the Stones, have a merc, pick up uber drop gear, etc, etc. If you play with no real good gear it is as slow there as it is here. And there is a ton more places to go and things to do. You can make it what you want compared to here. If you like going to KC, Seb, and HS 75 times a week, killing the same mobs over and over like on here, well enjoy. :o:o

[t0lkien]

I have said it on the Forums before. You can play the Test server. Get everything for free there. you DO NOT have to use the Stones, have a merc, pick up uber drop gear, etc, etc. If you play with no real good gear it is as slow there as it is here. And there is a ton more places to go and things to do. You can make it what you want compared to here. If you like going to KC, Seb, and HS 75 times a week, killing the same mobs over and over like on here, well enjoy. :o:o

Well, considering they have changed the way XP works and so many of the original mechanics, there's really no way to go back. It's a different game now (and a bit of a mess IMO, but it's just my opinion).

Also... I was using the live S3Ds to get the updated textures. I tried to zone into the Commons and crashed. They have changed it totally on live (I didn't know that).

[webrunner5]

Well, considering they have changed the way XP works and so many of the original mechanics, there's really no way to go back. It's a different game now (and a bit of a mess IMO, but it's just my opinion).

Also... I was using the live S3Ds to get the updated textures. I tried to zone into the Commons and crashed. They have changed it totally on live (I didn't know that).

I didn't say it was perfect, but it sure as hell isn't here either. The XP is no faster if you start off with a Orc pick and a Cloth Robe. There is high Zem zones there just like here. I am not a big fan of the way they re did EC EFP etc but having tons more zones to go to is a plus for me. I play on all of the EQ servers. So I get to play the best of all of them. The Sleeper server is a lot like P1999 was when it first started and you get to 2 box. I like it, Firepots and all.

[Anelion]

Someone said something about Beastlords? Uh ya give me that.

[bluejam]

I was looking at the last updates from the Legacy of Steel archive, dated 2005, and you already had items that were adding 350+ points to mana and HP, with multiple effects, modifiers, etc. I don't see how modern expansion content doesn't have items adding over 1000+ at this point.
They do.

e.g.

Twilight Greaves of the Performer
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PRESTIGE INFUSIBLE
Slot: LEGS
Purity: 50
AC: 223
STR: +35+11 DEX: +38+12 STA: +31+10 CHA: +31+10 WIS: +28 INT: +29+10 AGI: +36+12 HP: +2410 MANA: +2267 ENDUR: +2386
SV FIRE: +45 SV DISEASE: +45 SV COLD: +45 SV MAGIC: +45 SV POISON: +45
Combat Effects: +5 Shielding: +2% Spell Shield: +2% Avoidance: +5 Accuracy: +7 Stun Resist: +2% Strikethrough: +1% DoT Shielding: +2% Attack: +30 HP Regen +3 Mana Regeneration: +3 Damage Shield: +2 Spell Damage: +17 Damage Shield Mitigation: +2 Heal Amount: +17
Required level of 100.
Effect: Ferocity IX (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
Focus: Wind Resonance 26
WT: 9.4 Size: LARGE
Class: BRD
Race: HUM ELF HEF VAH DRK
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)
Slot 2, Type 13 (Energeiac: Group)
Slot 3, Type 21 (Special Ornamentation)


http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=111597

[Ripp]

I really miss spell sets but other than that, live is an ugly mess.

[Gadwen]

In F2P (or P2W) games, every part of that game is a carrot to get you to spend money. It has to be that way. Almost every aspect of the design is intentionally plugging into psychological elements - the same ones that get people addicted to slot machines by the way, and is the reason slots are now implementing lots of RPG elements. This is why there is so much discussion about "Skinner boxes". There are lots of articles online about this for anyone who wants to read about it.

You cannot have a game like the original EQ within that model, because it's intentionally difficult, slow burn, challenging, subtle, and long term. It plays on foreshadowing, delayed gratification, and rewards genuine thought and effort. You don't get a trophy just for turning up. There are so many touches of "unreasonable detail" because it was for the most part a labour of vision and love. The difference is clear for anyone who loves games and RPGs in particular, and it's the same in all works of creativity.

F2P games can't do that. Their game mechanics can't do that. Their reward schemes can't do that. Honestly, it affects absolutely everything from art style to time between level ups, to the layout of geometry. It's built upon instant gratification and ADD attention spans. There is nothing, in the end, that is untouched by the single-minded pursuit of mass market mediocrity and profit.

So, by its nature it can't create anything but shallow, mercenary, exploitive, manipulative gameplay - which is the antithesis of good gameplay. And it can't do anything but undervalue ingame effort and reward. Buying game progression devalues everything about that game, and cheapens it irreversibly. It is the death of everything that under-girded RPG games, and people are just beginning to realize it en masse, and stop handing over money to it. They've been tricked, and they see it. The games industry is imploding right now, as I've said. In the past few months dozens of studios have closed, some major. Zynga, that abortive mess of a Skinner box shop, just laid off 500 employees. Most of my ex-colleagues are out of work - all over the world. So much about games is crap right now, and this coercive F2P philosophy is a big part of the reason why.



You are right on the money here, great post.

Every F2P game that I have played for a decent amount of time has just been a huge letdown. When game breaking bugs persist but 20+ new purchasable items roll out every other week you can really see what the devs are focused on. (but don't worry, the hats team is different from the one man bug fixing team so they still care)

[Gadwen]

I didn't say it was perfect, but it sure as hell isn't here either. The XP is no faster if you start off with a Orc pick and a Cloth Robe. There is high Zem zones there just like here. I am not a big fan of the way they re did EC EFP etc but having tons more zones to go to is a plus for me. I play on all of the EQ servers. So I get to play the best of all of them. The Sleeper server is a lot like P1999 was when it first started and you get to 2 box. I like it, Firepots and all.

How is sleeper doing? I logged in last night and did a who all 1-30 during peak (est) hours and it came up with 15 people, and I was one of them. Assuming they are all 2 boxing thats 7 people between levels 1-30...didn't look like a good sign to me.

[Thulack]

I was looking at the last updates from the Legacy of Steel archive, dated 2005, and you already had items that were adding 350+ points to mana and HP, with multiple effects, modifiers, etc. I don't see how modern expansion content doesn't have items adding over 1000+ at this point.

Here is my ranger's bow on live:

Crab Point

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE PRESTIGE PLACEABLE
Slot: RANGE
Charges: Unlimited
Skill: Archery Atk Delay: 25
DMG: 134 AC: 101
This item is placeable in yards and houses.
STR: +38+6 DEX: +30+5 STA: +17+7 CHA: +31+6 WIS: +30+6 INT: +20+5 AGI: +40+7 HP: +2488 MANA: +2415 ENDUR: +2415
SV FIRE: +50 SV DISEASE: +68 SV COLD: +60 SV MAGIC: +70 SV POISON: +52
Combat Effects: +5 Shielding: +4% Spell Shield: +3% Avoidance: +9 Accuracy: +9 Stun Resist: +3% Strikethrough: +3% DoT Shielding: +2% Attack: +41 HP Regen +8 Damage Shield: +3 Clairvoyance: +39 Spell Damage: +24 Damage Shield Mitigation: +2 Heal Amount: +16
Recommended level of 95. Required level of 92.
Effect: Prismatic Ward IX (Any Slot/Can Equip, Casting Time: 0.5)
Effect: Improved Dodge VII (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
WT: 6.2 Range: 215 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR PAL RNG SHD ROG
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 4 (Weapon: General)
Slot 2, Type 8 (General: Raid)
Slot 3, Type 20 (Ornamentation)


I find it funny when people post parses from p99 considering with this bow and discs can hit 30k DPS. My ranger also raid buffs to 100k+hp

[webrunner5]

How is sleeper doing? I logged in last night and did a who all 1-30 during peak (est) hours and it came up with 15 people, and I was one of them. Assuming they are all 2 boxing thats 7 people between levels 1-30...didn't look like a good sign to me.

How many people were on P1999 when it started? You were here.

But I like Sleeper because Nobody is pissing about the Raid scene, MM, Unrest, etc. At least not this week yet. :cool:

[Vondra]

I started playing on the test server some recently. You get everything except extra merc slots there for free, so it's good for playing on the side.

[Faerie]

How is pvp on Zek now?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

There are two meanings to the word "nerf."

Originally, it meant making us less powerful. The earliest example I have memory of was the mosscovered twig, I think. It got "nerfed" -- and the ultimate nerf: removed from game.

But a second sense of "nerf" is what started to happen: that is where not the player, but the game, is made less powerful or is made easier.

The first sense of nerfing was when they were still trying to keep the game hard.

The second type of nerfing became the "best practices" sheet for expansion developers.

And that is what happened. The game got nerfed a long, long time ago.


It is like playing minesweeper with the ability to "peek" before you actually click on a tile.

[Gadwen]

How many people were on P1999 when it started? You were here.

But I like Sleeper because Nobody is pissing about the Raid scene, MM, Unrest, etc. At least not this week yet. :cool:

Within the first few months there were several hundred people online here during peak hours, and it just continued to grow from that point.

And yeah there's definitely nobody complaining about any of that stuff on sleeper, but I'm pretty sure that just comes down to lack of players to create the drama.

[Swish]

How is sleeper doing? I logged in last night and did a who all 1-30 during peak (est) hours and it came up with 15 people, and I was one of them. Assuming they are all 2 boxing thats 7 people between levels 1-30...didn't look like a good sign to me.

Surprised Toop hasn't just called it a day and given it up. I'd rather play on one of the green coloured custom servers on EQemu.

[Clark]

I logged on and every zone I like was empty. Dumb.

http://s8.postimg.org/z2e9fj1hx/Man_Wearing_Tin_Foil_Hat.jpg

[Korisek]

The things I miss most from Live are AAs (dat Pally mount) and Iksars being capable of wearing plate armor.

But I think the final straw for me were the Drakken. I was cool with new classes and races up until that point because at least with the Vah Shir and Frogloks it looked like SOME effort was taken into their modelling and texturing. But then they added in the dracogackts with their world-destroying Crescent Reach and I just felt there was no point to it anymore.

[Khaleesi]

There's a lot of comments about people going onto Live to see how the zones have evolved both graphically and geometrically. The majority feedback is negative.
My suggestion is that instead of EQ Live, you go onto EverQuest II. Identifying similarities (and differences) was the first thing most people did when the game came out - and zone art and layouts was one aspect that was no exception.

At least when playing EQII you don't feel so dirty about the way things changed.

[t0lkien]

There's a lot of comments about people going onto Live to see how the zones have evolved both graphically and geometrically. The majority feedback is negative.
My suggestion is that instead of EQ Live, you go onto EverQuest II. Identifying similarities (and differences) was the first thing most people did when the game came out - and zone art and layouts was one aspect that was no exception.

At least when playing EQII you don't feel so dirty about the way things changed.

...however you have to live with not being able to assist anyone realistically (combat is locked out once it starts), and every single damn zone is instanced. No thanks. It's a completely different game, and fundamentally exchanged the MMO experience for something else. Also, character models looked like Plasticine.

(This is all unless they changed things after launch. I gave up on the game after a week and never went back).

[Khaleesi]

...however you have to live with not being able to assist anyone realistically (combat is locked out once it starts), and every single damn zone is instanced. No thanks. It's a completely different game, and fundamentally exchanged the MMO experience for something else. Also, character models looked like Plasticine.

(This is all unless they changed things after launch. I gave up on the game after a week and never went back).

Yes, which is why you do not feel so bad about it.

[Visual]

and every single damn zone is instanced.

I don't like this trend at all. Seemingly counterintuitive, seeing as the first word in the acronym mmorpg is Massively :p

[Nirgon]

Scrubs don't like capitalism

[Droog007]

But I think the final straw for me were the Drakken. I was cool with new classes and races up until that point because at least with the Vah Shir and Frogloks it looked like SOME effort was taken into their modelling and texturing. But then they added in the dracogackts with their world-destroying Crescent Reach and I just felt there was no point to it anymore.

I thought the Drakken (along with a scant few of the Luclin models, like perhaps the human female) were actually modeled pretty well. Their animations, however, were terrible.

How did Crescent Reach destroy the world? It was a extremely convenient place to do tradeskills, granted... but the precedent had already been set.

Also, [EQ2] character models looked like Plasticine.

With few exceptions (horses, ogres), I thought EQ2 was gorgeous - at least with settings on high. Dumbed down to where you could play it on an affordable machine - yes, it could look pretty sucky sometimes.

[Nirgon]

I had some fun with EQ2. Even the PvP a few levels with the open world stuff. There was single item loot (GOOD) but it got f'd with the honor system/token stuff being no drop... and frankly... existing at all. Slowly lost interest from there.

[Korisek]

How did Crescent Reach destroy the world? It was a extremely convenient place to do tradeskills, granted... but the precedent had already been set.

The thing is, the PoK and Gloomingdeep DID shrink the world significantly and DID make all the old systems surrounding faction and the ways characters were forced to interact with the world around them less significant, but in the end the PoK still required players to have at least visited their character's non-homogenous home cities at least once in their lives, and gloomingdeep dumped players off in their home cities just a little bit richer/more experienced than if they hadn't done the "tutorial." But Crescent Reach finally did away with home cities by allowing EVERYONE to start there, and every new alt did.

The individual, varied, and quite frankly very colorful home cities of all of the races of norrath, from the fairly austere Freeport and Qeynos to the majestic Erud to the ramshackle Grobb, were the biggest draws to me as a player. Different players got different starts and different beginner experiences through those opening cities, and often got relatively unique items from the quests in those areas. It helped make the world feel more... well, like a world.

I could grok the Nexus, the PoK, and Gloomingdeep because those zones didn't do what Crescent Reach did, in my opinion, to the largest sources of individual race lore in the whole game.

Also, I think the Drakken were just horridly ugly and generic-looking and I would have vastly preferred playable gnolls or orcs over them, because at least those had precedence. I would vote frogloks as the well-modeled new player race, personally.

[Droog007]

I forgot about non-Drakken being able to choose it as your starting city. That is dumb. I remember when I came back to the game after Hiatus02 it gave me the option between Halas and CR. I don't think I realized that it would affect the then-unknown-to-me "Origin" ability, but I'm glad I went with my gut and picked Halas anyway.

[Faerie]

Starting area didn't matter anyway, after the PoK books.

Luclin was the beginning of the end, with their wiz spires porting to an area where PvP was not allowed, and bazaar where PvP was not allowed. It really ruined the trading experience, where lights traded in gfay and darks around Neriak. So much for meaningful RP...