Deciding my offhand.

[zforrestal]

I'm debating what I should use as my offhand. I'm a lvl 45 bard currently using Breath of Harmony as my primary and Short Sword of the Ykesha as my offhand. Until I get my Singing Short Sword I need help deciding on my offhand. I've been pulling too much aggro in groups when Yak procs due to my charms and Mezzes. So should I get CSS or Guardians Mace. Opinions please thanks.

http://wiki.project1999.org/Crystalline_Short_Sword

http://wiki.project1999.org/Guardians_Mace

[Ele]

guardian's mace, ez

[Rhambuk]

Id say go with the css and get rid of that ssoy asap.

As much as bards like to think they are, they are not a dps class. The ac proc off of Gmace isnt bad for a bad but i think the +6 cha/int on css would get you a lot farther than 2more dmg.

[zforrestal]

I'm also thinking Symphonic Saber

[orsk]

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Sionachie%27s_Partisan

Nice wep i liked it on my bard because the low delay and decent stats although i did mainly choose it for the SV magic due to pvp

[falkun]

BOH + Gmace is highest DPS pre-epic. When you get epic, the instrument mods only function in primary:
The Singing Short Sword can be equipped in both the primary and secondary slots. The innate instrument effects will only be utilized when equipped in the primary slot until just a bit before Luclin when it can be held in either hand and still have the instrument bonuses applied.
But the stats from CSS aren't bad either and Rhambuk is correct, bards are NOT a DPS class.

Sionachie's is a fantastic, cheap weapon.

[zforrestal]

I think I'm gonna go with Guardians Mace. Thanks for the input guys!

[zanderklocke]

Guardians mace for dps
Jagged blade of mourning for magic resist (I always swap this for gmace in seb after it has procced)
Symphonic saber when you are taking too much aggro due to slow/snare
Trochilic's skean in weird chance you need to tank (plop in harmonic dagger in primary for more aggro)
Orb of tishan (off hand or dual wield) if you ever need a mob tashed that is resisting spells
Melodious truncheon dual wielded to interrupt casters

I carry these all around at once in a tink bag.

I've never been a huge fan of CSS as I feel like that stats are somewhat negligible. Int and Agi don't add much. By high levels, I see cha having diminishing returns for mez/lull/charm. 4 Str, eh whatever. However, this is all just my personal opinion.

[webrunner5]

DPS with weapons on a Bard after say level 22. Crazy.:eek::eek:

[HeallunRumblebelly]

DPS with weapons on a Bard after say level 22. Crazy.:eek::eek:

Right? I'm like uh, just use the drum...

[zanderklocke]

If a bard is going to be twisting melee buffs (haste, damage shield, slow/snare, mana song), which is typical for most groups, weapons are going to be more useful for dps (although not great dps) compared to twisting in a DoT song with a drum equipped. Every DoT song used is removing a group beneficial buff.

[astuce999]

Dont mean to highjack the thread, but what is considered high dps in a regular group?

'stuce

[HeallunRumblebelly]

If a bard is going to be twisting melee buffs (haste, damage shield, slow/snare, mana song), which is typical for most groups, weapons are going to be more useful for dps (although not great dps) compared to twisting in a DoT song with a drum equipped. Every DoT song used is removing a group beneficial buff.

Right, but if you've got a rogue (who of course by lvl 10 should have his epic on p99!) are you even going to notice the bard dps?

[Vadd]

Dont mean to highjack the thread, but what is considered high dps in a regular group?

'stuce

Just a guess, but I'd say.... around 50dps?

So maybe 60's is "high?"

[zanderklocke]

Right, but if you've got a rogue (who of course by lvl 10 should have his epic on p99!) are you even going to notice the bard dps?

Maybe not, but it's at least a little more additional dps. I mean it never hurts to add even just a bit more dps. Everything adds up.

[Tecmos Deception]

A solid group of 60s would probably be something like 250 sustained DPS (tank 30, 3 dps at 50-60 average, a 4th dps or charming enchanter/druid/necro with +50-60 more). You might see 300+ in some fights, when charm lasts the whole time and positioning is just right and all, but when you think about positioning and CC happening and charm breaks and stuff, 250 over long periods of combat is probably right.

An excellent group might average up to 350 sustained (a group with only charms, epic rogues, and/or well-geared monks as dps)?

[webrunner5]

Right? I'm like uh, just use the drum...

You probably would kill about as fast lol. :D

[zanderklocke]

Bard dps about 20-25.

It's funny, back on Live, I never remember people actually parsing out the numbers. Did the tools even exist back then? Presently, I've seen some people do some pretty dumb things on hate/fear clears to try to out dps the experience group or show up at the top of the dps counter.

[zanderklocke]

Webrunner, if I look half as sweet as the guy in your avatar picture when I grow older, I know I have succeeded at life.

[falkun]

Bard DPS is around 20-25 with BOH+Gmace. I can believe epic+VP weapons pushing 35-45, especially if you stack DoT songs in there. Either way, thats 1/4 to 1/2 of rogue/monk DPS.

[astuce999]

So if as a bard *working hard*, playing 3 dots at 78 a piece, plus a measly 10-15dps from melee, I’m reaching close to 50 dps. If you add the occasional charm (or if I’m not tanking, pretty much all the time), you’re looking at close to another 30-50 dps in 18 second bursts (rarely need to charm more than twice during a battle).

So if in total I’m doing 70-100dps in a typical fight, am I then considered high dps?


'stuce

[Vadd]

Presently, I've seen some people do some pretty dumb things on hate/fear clears to try to out dps the experience group or show up at the top of the dps counter.

Haha, I'm surprised from time to time when I see who I come out ahead of as a Warrior.

[Tecmos Deception]

I'd be flabbergasted to see a bard above 30 DPS with melee alone.

[Tecmos Deception]

So if as a bard *working hard*, playing 3 dots at 78 a piece, plus a measly 10-15dps from melee, I’m reaching close to 50 dps. If you add the occasional charm (or if I’m not tanking, pretty much all the time), you’re looking at close to another 30-50 dps in 18 second bursts (rarely need to charm more than twice during a battle).

So if in total I’m doing 70-100dps in a typical fight, am I then considered high dps?


'stuce

The issue here isn't DPS, it's reality. What is the third dot that does as much as the frost/fire chants? How are you chanting for that much while also meleeing (that's selo's damage on those chants, after all). Charming doesn't really ADD 30-50 dps I wouldn't think, since you are sacrificing something else in order to do the charm. And how does the rest of your group feel about you doing this stuff instead of the usual bard stuff? Or are you really that fucking amazing that you can twist a few chants while somehow also meleeing and charming without requiring total attention from the healer to keep you up and/or costing the rest of the group DPS because stuff is chasing you all over the place?

:p

[Swish]

Whatever you do, don't be that afk bard that leaves mana song on. Waste of a hybrid slot.

[falkun]

So if as a bard *working hard*, playing 3 dots at 78 a piece, plus a measly 10-15dps from melee, I’m reaching close to 50 dps. If you add the occasional charm (or if I’m not tanking, pretty much all the time), you’re looking at close to another 30-50 dps in 18 second bursts (rarely need to charm more than twice during a battle).

So if in total I’m doing 70-100dps in a typical fight, am I then considered high dps?


'stuce

With epic+L60, the top 4 DPS songs yield ~55/55/56/45 per 6sec, so 35DPS. Add in ~30DPS for melee (high estimate) and you're at 60DPS, ballpark 1/2-2/3 of rog/monk DPS for similar gear. Meanwhile, you aren't playing mana song and you are AoEing so CC is shot to hell, not that you'd have time to twist that song in anyways. Add in the occasional charmed pet at 50DPS (110 (medium-high hit for charm at 60) x (2 swings) / (4 sec per attack) ~ 50DPS), and you are around 90-110DPS. I'd consider that high DPS for an exp group. I'll have to start parsing myself and my charmed pets in exp groups to see how realistic this is.

[Tecmos Deception]

With epic+L60, the top 4 DPS songs yield ~55/55/56/45 per 6sec, so 35DPS. Add in ~30DPS for melee (high estimate) and you're at 60DPS, ballpark 1/2-2/3 of rog/monk DPS for similar gear. Meanwhile, you aren't playing mana song and you are AoEing so CC is shot to hell, not that you'd have time to twist that song in anyways. Add in the occasional charmed pet at 50DPS (110 (medium-high hit for charm at 60) x (2 swings) / (4 sec per attack) ~ 50DPS), and you are around 90-110DPS. I'd consider that high DPS for an exp group. I'll have to start parsing myself and my charmed pets in exp groups to see how realistic this is.

I'd love to see this done.

[astuce999]

The issue here isn't DPS, it's reality. What is the third dot that does as much as the frost/fire chants? How are you chanting for that much while also meleeing (that's selo's damage on those chants, after all). Charming doesn't really ADD 30-50 dps I wouldn't think, since you are sacrificing something else in order to do the charm. And how does the rest of your group feel about you doing this stuff instead of the usual bard stuff? Or are you really that fucking amazing that you can twist a few chants while somehow also meleeing and charming without requiring total attention from the healer to keep you up and/or costing the rest of the group DPS because stuff is chasing you all over the place?

:p

>>The issue here isn't DPS, it's reality. What is the third dot that does as much as the frost/fire chants?

Lvl 59 Denon’s Bereavement

>>How are you chanting for that much while also meleeing (that's selo's damage on those chants, after all).

Clicking in instruments in the fraction of a second that it takes for the dot to land, than clicking back my weapons.

>>Charming doesn't really ADD 30-50 dps I wouldn't think, since you are sacrificing something else in order to do the charm.

I use a 5 song twist +BoH click, so since with the 3 dots that gives me 2 more songs, one being mana song and since don’t need to snare until end of fight charming recast works fine.

>>And how does the rest of your group feel about you doing this stuff instead of the usual bard stuff?

At first they’re usually apprehensive, but after a while I get some very positive feedback. Then at the end, they all talk about making bard twinks or never being able to play a bard like that, you know, the usual stuff.

>>Or are you really that fucking amazing that you can twist a few chants while somehow also meleeing and charming without requiring total attention from the healer to keep you up and/or costing the rest of the group DPS because stuff is chasing you all over the place?

Usually the necro healer keeps me up fine, or the mob is slowed, or I have my “tank gear” on including shield et. Al, or stuff is feared so we are chasing it and no one needs heals. Ask around about me (or other top bards) ;)


sorry for the replies like that I am doing this at work so can't stay logged in haha.

Astuce Subterfuge

[zanderklocke]

I don't understand doing 5 songs + BoH click. I do 4 songs +BoH click, and if I get a fizzle or don't time things perfectly, one song always drops.

5 songs + BoH click just seems like you are guaranteeing a bunch of dropped songs.

[astuce999]

I don't understand doing 5 songs + BoH click. I do 4 songs +BoH click, and if I get a fizzle or don't time things perfectly, one song always drops.

5 songs + BoH click just seems like you are guaranteeing a bunch of dropped songs.


http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14926

[zanderklocke]

>>The issue here isn't DPS, it's reality. What is the third dot that does as much as the frost/fire chants?

Lvl 59 Denon’s Bereavement

>>How are you chanting for that much while also meleeing (that's selo's damage on those chants, after all).

Clicking in instruments in the fraction of a second that it takes for the dot to land, than clicking back my weapons.

>>Charming doesn't really ADD 30-50 dps I wouldn't think, since you are sacrificing something else in order to do the charm.

I use a 5 song twist +BoH click, so since with the 3 dots that gives me 2 more songs, one being mana song and since don’t need to snare until end of fight charming recast works fine.

>>And how does the rest of your group feel about you doing this stuff instead of the usual bard stuff?

At first they’re usually apprehensive, but after a while I get some very positive feedback. Then at the end, they all talk about making bard twinks or never being able to play a bard like that, you know, the usual stuff.

>>Or are you really that fucking amazing that you can twist a few chants while somehow also meleeing and charming without requiring total attention from the healer to keep you up and/or costing the rest of the group DPS because stuff is chasing you all over the place?

Usually the necro healer keeps me up fine, or the mob is slowed, or I have my “tank gear” on including shield et. Al, or stuff is feared so we are chasing it and no one needs heals. Ask around about me (or other top bards) ;)


sorry for the replies like that I am doing this at work so can't stay logged in haha.

Astuce Subterfuge

You use a shield when tanking as a bard...what?

I would want to kill myself if I was focused on swapping in a drum for weapons every time a DoT song landed while I was also maintaining other bard beneficial songs.

Here's my typical twist, and I always feel busy:
Cantana, Villa's Chorus haste (unless there's another haster, then verse of victory or chant of battle, depending on whether warrior is proccing enough and needs more dex), psalm of warmth for damage shield and to avoid ice comets in sebilis, and add in largo a absonant binding (assuming no slower/snarer). Add in Breath of Harmony click, and dang I'm getting busy.

If someone else is slowing, snaring, I guess I could be charming and landing DoT instead, but charm is more of a means of more crowd control for me when too many mobs are in camp.

I think biggest thing bards bring typically is our crowd control, haste, pulling, and slow/snare abilities in a group. I mean obviously we vary our play styles based on what is needed, but I just feel like DoT's have diminishing returns usually when other beneficial buffs can be provided to the group.

But holy shit man, you are a beast to be doing everything you describe yourself doing in a group. However, that's the cool thing about bards. There's tons of ways to play them, as well as many ways to gear them.

[Splorf22]

So I have only played a bard to 38 but the Deajay/Astuce math seems hugely optimistic in my experience.

First, I don't think a charmed pet is 50 dps or even close. An enc pet is about 100 and gets a bonus of maybe 1.6*1.8 for haste/dw. 100/(1.6*1.8) = 35 which is a bit more realistic. Plus if the bard is pulling 2 at a time, the charmed pet is only fighting half the time. Basically I see bard charm as 'mez with benefits' more than huge dps.

Second, I never manged to do more than 4 songs, especially when charming because unless you time it perfectly the pet will interrupt you periodically, or the tank won't have aggro, or whatnot. If you are singing 5 I have to imagine that stuff like haste and cantata is dropping all the time. but hey, maybe I was doing something wrong.

Third, I found that in a good group the dots weren't that effective because shit would die so fast (~30s). I would usually be pulling so I would twist say Haste/Slow/Mana/DoT and maybe I would get 2-3 dot ticks off.

Fourth, I would miss a lot of melee rounds due to targeting or chain pulling or whatnot.

So I think a more reasonable estimate for the dps bard (reasonable if there are both an enchanter/shaman to handle haste/slow) is 15 dps melee, 15 dps charm, 100/tick from two songs = 15 dps, so 45-50.

This is making me want to dust off Dramor though :D I've been trying a mage and the lack of root is driving me crazy. If you are on sometime I'd be happy to bust out Sakuragi and see your bard in action Astuce, maybe i'll eat my words!

[zanderklocke]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14926

"depending on the server tick, a normal song will last anywhere between 12-18 seconds."

I've read your post before, didn't realize until now that you wrote it, but I've never understood this statement. Do server ticks vary; do not all songs last 18 seconds? I've never understood what you are explaining in that sentence.

For me, being a bard and twisting has been more about feeling things rather than knowing when a song will disappear. I always 'feel' when a charm will break or when a song will drop. For this reason, I feel like I can feel out 4 songs + BoH clickie being twisted, but 5 songs + BoH clickie just doesn't feel right to me. I like to be able to keep all songs up without frequent drops of a song or two.

[zanderklocke]

Random question: Do any other classes change as much as a bard once getting their epic? I mean the bard epic is completely game changing and changes what songs you twist in groups (mcvaxius) and raids (psalm resists as opposed to drum resists).

It's going to be weird sort of relearning my class a bit once I get the bard epic.

[astuce999]

The best example I can think of about a server tick is that no matter when you are casting a dot, and stacking dots on a mob, the damage the mob will take will be from all dots all at once. The server ticks every 6 seconds, and when its time is up, anything that is “on” at the time will be applied. Whether it is HP regen, mana regen, or dots, it all happens when the server ticks.

I’d like to be able to draw a nice little graphic that shows all the seconds within the server tick, all the time you have to apply new songs or refresh old effects that have dropped off before it makes any difference at all, but I don’t have those capabilities from work.

Maybe someone else can explain

Astuce

[zanderklocke]

So does this mean only certain songs can be twisted as a 5th song, or no?