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astuce999
04-18-2013, 01:59 PM
Introduction: I got to thinking of my dream EQ server. Please, only read if you are bored at work or like the ‘what ifs’ type scenarios.


CODE:
-Use p99 current code (all nerfs and changes in), with modifications below.
-Figure out a way to make stamina loss and regeneration classic.
-Bring back the book for meditating under lvl 35.


TIMELINE:
-Start with Vanilla Only.
-Follow timeline for Kunark release.
-Follow timeline for Velious release.

ACCOUNTS:
-2 Accounts per IP maximum.
-2 Characters per account maximum.
-No boxing. (1 IP exemption per household, no increase on limits of accounts)

Notes: Having 2 accounts per IP maximum makes it so that IP exemptions are allowed for 2 people to play from the same household, but it will also prevent rampant account buying/selling that is occurring on p99 right now. Having 2 characters per account maximum will prevent people from having multiple alts camped at specific raid targets, if you want to re-roll an alt, just delete your current one and make a new one, keeping things fresh.

EXPERIENCE:
-Increase the amount of experience required to level by 1200%.
-Remove all class experience modifiers (keep racial ones).
-Add an extra 100% experience per group member so that a group of 6 will effectively gain 600% experience of someone alone.

Notes: This will hopefully make it so that people group more. If it takes 12 times the amount of time to solo from lvl 1-50 compared to p99, but only twice the time on p99 by being in a group, it should motivate people to form full groups. Removing class penalties will also level the playing field in group selection.

ITEMS:
-No legacy items. (GM Events only)
-No item recharge.
-No multi-questing.

Notes: I’d like the playing field to be as level as possible, and if a server like this were to pop up the legacy item camps would cause all sorts of drama. Item recharge to me is something that was classic, but was rarely used since it was largely unknown. On p99 it’s a daily routine, and it makes a lot of events and travel trivial. Multi-questing encourages greed and also takes the journey out of completing quests.

MOBS:
-Raise mobs above level 20’s effective level by 3, without raising their actual level (so that they are more difficult but don’t give more xp).

Notes: This is also made to keep the spirit of making things harder. P99 has found a great way of making the caster mobs spell selection much smarter, but melee only mobs are pushovers. If anyone can think of easily implemented ways of making mobs tougher I’d love to hear it and would want it in my fantasy server.

ZONES:
-Increase ZEM’s in zones that are notoriously vacant.
-Planes are available from the start, with their current ruleset except with the original p99 fear spell that actually made it slightly dangerous.

Notes: Hot Zoning is a good way to motivate people to be more adventurous, especially on a server with vanilla only to start, and incredibly prohibitive xp requirements. We all know the zones that are always empty, this would give them a chance to see some action.

CLASSES:
Bard;
-AE kiting nerf (AE dots don’t deal any damage if mobs are chasing)
-All bard group v1 haste becomes v3 haste (overhaste).
-Cassindra`s Elegy (lvl 44) has a component added: +15% to single target detrimental spell damage (nuke focus).

Notes: AE kiting is one of those things like item recharge, or 2boxing; it was possible in classic, but it was so rare that no one payed it any mind. As soon as the word got out, in PoP, AE kiting was nerfed 3 times (until it was successful). Initially, bard haste was meant to stack with all other hastes. On EQ beta, there are some reports that it actually did. Over the years, a lot of people thought it still did, and then they eventually created overhaste. When they did, melees really started to love bards a lot more. PoP gave bards the ability to increase the spell damage of other casters in the group. Cassindra’s Elegy is a song that no one ever sings except to do tradeskills. Since it was +int/wis I felt that it was natural to add this very group-friendly component to a song that is never used. These songs make bards a solid group class, and with the hybrid penalty removed, they should find takers.

Cleric;
-Whenever a cleric casts a beneficial spell, there is a 25% chance that it will only cost 1 mana.
-Critical heals added.

Notes: As the premier healing class of classic, clerics don’t need a lot of tweaks to be desired in groups. With the difficulty of mobs increased, their demands will only stay the same if not increase. I thought that adding those 2 abilities would make the class slightly more enjoyable and make up for the increase in mana demands from more difficult mobs.

Druid;
-Heal modifier is changed from -10% to +50%
-Regeneration line has a component added : +2 mana regeneration. (no longer same spell as a shaman)
-Whenever a druid casts a detrimental spell, there is a 25% chance that his next beneficial spell will cost 1 mana. (blinking buff icon for 3 ticks upon successful trigger)
-Whenever a druid casts a beneficial spell, there is a 25% chance that his next detrimental spell will cost 1 mana. (blinking buff icon for 3 ticks upon successful trigger)

Notes: Druids needed a lot of work. Their utility ended when you said “kthxbye” after a port. Since they don’t have slows like shamans, formulas have shown that they spend a lot more mana on heals than the other two priests. It also takes forever to med, and with the increased difficulty of mobs they would never keep up. They sometimes would get invited to groups thinking they can heal and nuke, but would spend all their mana on heals and get the evil eye if they nuked once in a while. These abilities all address those shortcomings, and should make them much more desirable in groups.

Enchanter;
-Insight/Brilliance line has a component added: whenever specialization check is successful on a spell (minimum cast time 3 seconds), player gains 100 mana.

Notes: enchanters are already super awesome, so not much work was needed. Due to the reality of more mana-intensive fights, this new ability should continue to keep their desirability very high in groups.


Magician;
-Single target damage shield line has a component added: chance to proc a 400 point DD, with a high modifier, can only be cast on other player characters, 5 minute cooldown, 5 minute duration.

Notes: Magicians were already fairly high on the desired list, especially in vanilla, but they always soloed. With the new reality they should want to get in on groups more, and now they can make 1 player deal a lot more damage.

Monk;
-Secondary attack abilities (i.e. dragon punch, flying kick) have a component added: +25% chance to proc silence for 30 seconds on target (standard stun rules apply).

Monks are well known to be overpowered in classic, so it would have been very difficult to justify giving them many things. Casters mobs are also a very tough customer in p99, so having monks able to deal with them better than anyone made sense. Plus I also think that lore-wise it is justifiable.

Necromancer;
-The Vampiric Embrace line can now be cast on other player characters.
Critical dots added.
-Shadowsight can now be cast on other players. It now takes 1.5 seconds to cast. It has components added: (2) See invis, (3)Feign Death. It has a 5 minute cooldown. Standing will not dispel the buff, the other components will remain in effect.

Notes: Necros are used to solo’ing. It’s because of 2 things; one, they get much better xp by solo’ing, and two, they aren’t very highly desired in groups. It’s not that they were hated, it’s just people picked other classes in the dps slot instead. The new reality will change that. Solo’ing is horrible now, and by having a buff that should be fairly highly sought after by tank types, and critical dots to increase their damage output in short fights, it should make their lfg tag have a shorter lifespan. Being able to FD someone else in group every 5 minutes will also make for some interesting situations, the first one being able to save the cleric when things go terribly wrong, but many others that players will discover.

Paladin;
-Yaulp line has a component added: +25% chance to proc a 100 point group heal. (add 50 points per Yaulp upgrade)
-Paladins start with an extra 100 points to all resists.

Notes: Once the hybrid penalty is removed, paladins don’t need much to be desired in groups. I thought it would be fitting to add more to the defensive aspect of the class, first to alleviate healing for the group, and second to bring a specialization to the type of tank the pally should be.

Ranger;
-Remove Feel Like Cat spell, instead add a spell called Spirit of Nature (lvl 15) that has a +2 mana regeneration and a +2 HP regeneration component.
E-yes of the Cat can now be cast on other players. It has a component added: +10 avoidance.
-Double bow damage.
-Snare line for rangers has a component added: 20% slow that scales up to 50% at lvl 60.

Notes: even with the hybrid penalty removed, Rangers need a ton of help. It wasn’t until PoP that they started to come on their own. I thought that by adding a beastlord twist to the type of utility that they have would bring their desirability in groups up tremendously.

Rogue;
-Backstab has a component added: +25% chance to proc a 400 attack buff on other group members for 6 seconds.
-Throwing has a component added: +50% chance to stun (0.1 seconds).

Notes: Being the premier DPS class in EQ, rogues have always been welcomed in groups, and they stack well. I tried to come up with ways they could help the group increase the damage output, without it directly being the rogues’ dps. I also wanted to add a little utility, and the thought of a well placed throw interrupting a spell caster just felt natural.

Shadowknight;
-Secondary attack abilities (i.e. bash, slam) have a component added: +25% chance to process a 50 point heal and a 20 point mana gain for the group.
-Deadeye may now be cast on other players. It also has an added component: +25% damage added to damage over time spells. It is no longer the same as the necro spell.

Notes: Much like the paladin, once the hybrid penalty is removed, they are in good shape for groups. Added a little utility, and a unique dot focus to help them find their niche.

Shaman;
-Shaman statistical buff spells ignore the cap (overstats).

Notes: Shamans are already overpowered in classic. The only thing I added is something that came later on and I felt respected the class’s nature.

Warrior;
-Whenever a warrior deals damage, the mob registers is as three times the hate it should generate.
-Whenever a warrior deals a critical hit or a crippling blow, the mob has a 25% chance to lose 500AC for 6 seconds.

Notes: warriors main problem is aggro, so by giving them a natural edge, it should help. Added a nice little twist to critical hits.

Wizard;
-Add spell critical hits.
-Whenever a wizard casts a detrimental spell, there is a chance that it will only cost 1 mana.
-The wizard Damage shield line now has a component added: +250 attack.
-Wizards now have the lvl 29 spell: Stone of Sorcery. It is a beneficial single target spell that has the component: -10% mana cost to all spells. Duration 27 minutes.

Notes: wizards have problems with mana, with all the changes to the other classes it should help them with that. I felt it was important to add that Gift of Mana-like ability, as well as critical nukes. The last 2 abilities are to help with group desirability, one for melees, the other for casters.


What do you guys think of this attempt at balancing classes? Did I neglect or give too much to a specific class? Let me know what you think, and thank you very much for reading!

Astuce Subterfuge

billpaleq
04-18-2013, 02:09 PM
You sir just made EQ next

Swish
04-18-2013, 02:46 PM
build it and they will come

SamwiseRed
04-18-2013, 02:49 PM
my dream eq server involves perma death. build and they will grief.

Itap
04-18-2013, 02:49 PM
I like a lot of your ideas. This reminds me of Vanilla WoW, to an extent. If this server existed, I would definitely play.

Stinkum
04-18-2013, 02:51 PM
I like about 75% of your ideas. Good stuff.

Bidoof
04-18-2013, 03:00 PM
I like a lot of the ideas. Obviously not classic, but still good balance thoughts that a lot of classes needed and never really got.

The only one I'd disagree with is bard overhaste, and that only really sticks out because my main for years was a bard on live. I think all v3 haste maxed at 10%, maybe 15% (been a few years). 10-15% adds a sizable bit of dps to a melee group, but anything over it, which most bard v1 haste songs are, would be too much.

quido
04-18-2013, 03:03 PM
make it happen bub

Cars
04-18-2013, 03:08 PM
I wrote a really long post critiquing why this wouldn't work then realized I could just sum it up as; very silly.

I understand that you want to encourage grouping more so that all classes are equally viable, but by outlawing solo play not only do you completely destroy the connection one person can make with the world on his/her own, but you make all time spent in that world without a group a waste of time. That's not a roleplaying game, thats a cooperative adventure game.

NoWaiJ
04-18-2013, 03:16 PM
please put your ideas into action. :D

some of the class changes are a little weird, but i like about 70% of this.

astuce999
04-18-2013, 04:03 PM
First, thanks very much on the comments so far, it's very appreciated!

Second, I wanted to address a comment;

I like a lot of the ideas. Obviously not classic, but still good balance thoughts that a lot of classes needed and never really got.

The only one I'd disagree with is bard overhaste, and that only really sticks out because my main for years was a bard on live. I think all v3 haste maxed at 10%, maybe 15% (been a few years). 10-15% adds a sizable bit of dps to a melee group, but anything over it, which most bard v1 haste songs are, would be too much.

You are right and wrong at the same time, it's my fault, I should have clarified. When I quit playing live the overhaste cap was 30%, so I went with that in mind. There is only 1 haste song (lvl 54) which gives more than 30% haste, and the way I intended it to work was that bard haste would now stack with other spell haste, all the way to the overcap; so a player (100% haste) with dragon item haste (41% haste) and chanter epic haste (61% haste), and bard song haste (45% haste) would hit the 230%haste cap. The difference in dps from 200% to 230% haste should be about 15%.

Keep the comments coming, and thanks for the input :)

billpaleq
04-18-2013, 04:31 PM
I understand that you want to encourage grouping more so that all classes are equally viable, but by outlawing solo play not only do you completely destroy the connection one person can make with the world on his/her own, but you make all time spent in that world without a group a waste of time. That's not a roleplaying game, thats a cooperative adventure game.

I agree the solo penalty can not be this severe but I do like the idea of grossly encouraging grouping

fadetree
04-18-2013, 04:33 PM
Too much aggro love for the warriors. I agree there should be some, but triple hate plus multiple 500AC debuffs are gonna make aggro control completely trivial. Since its a key mechanic and one of the few things that make boss fights 'hard', I think you are jacking it too much.

Like a lot of the rest, though.

Nihilist_santa
04-18-2013, 04:55 PM
Forcing people to group like this is just strange to me. Grouping takes tons of time in this game IMO where you can solo casually.

I see where your thought process is going and I understand trying to make the game more social but honestly the downfall for games like wow not being social enough for me is because their idea of class balance is to make everyone the same and giving everyone items/tools to make things quicker (mounts, innkeepers etc) .

The social aspects from EQ come from classes with clearly defined roles and others that can fill in multiple roles without specializing in one area. This is what facilities grouping and cooperation where as penalizing people for not doing so is just bad design from my point of view. This is like a just add friends label on the box because that's the only way you are getting anything done.

Bidoof
04-18-2013, 05:34 PM
Stupid work, can't post responses as soon as I see I have a reply.

I guess I was thinking of the spell dmg focus song when I remembered 10-15%. I apologize to those who remember those sorts of things. Apparently my age is getting to me. Since 30% is apparently what v3 was, then always hitting the 125% cap makes more sense, and isn't a balance issue.

As to the question "why force grouping", I see it as the opposite of most emu servers. Most servers are ok with, and sometimes promote, boxing up to 6 characters. While you still can group up with others, it promotes playing solo. P1999 is kind of the median, where it strives for the classic balance of solo and group. This would be the other side, where grouping is promoted above soloing. I think the exp penalty may be too steep, but its still an interesting idea.

Frieza_Prexus
04-18-2013, 05:38 PM
Some of your suggestions are exceptionally well done. Kudos.

sambal
04-18-2013, 05:39 PM
I would play this in a heartbeat. I especially like the beneficial-detrimental aspect of druids.

LizardNecro
04-18-2013, 05:54 PM
Sounds cool! Hope you code it. You'd still need to address the raid cockblock situation though, imho.

Kieu
04-18-2013, 06:11 PM
tldr

eqravenprince
04-18-2013, 08:23 PM
-Bring back the book for meditating under lvl 35.


No, a game meant to be fun, and staring at a book is not.

Vermicelli
04-19-2013, 01:38 AM
Monk;
-Secondary attack abilities (i.e. dragon punch, flying kick) have a component added: +25% chance to proc silence for 30 seconds on target (standard stun rules apply).

"Silence" is not a P99 spell or ability effect.

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu340/hellboy667/3b9f4cf5-burn-the-witch-burn-witch-kill-monty-python-demotivational-poster-1223816026.jpg

astuce999
04-19-2013, 10:41 AM
Thanks again for the feedback everyone, it is much appreciated.

The reasoning behind the trippling of hate on warrior damage, is that once you remove the hybrid penalty on knights, warriors fall way behind on desirability. Keeping aggro as a pally or SK is pretty trivial itself, and since they are gaining utility with what I give them, I thought it would be important that the warrior become very strong in the aggro department.

If anyone can think of other ways to make warriors more relevant in the environment, I'm very interested in hearing about it :)

I am also wondering if anyone can think of other ways to encourage grouping a lot without "outlawing" solo'ing as some have mentioned.

keep it all coming, and thank you again!

Astuce

Menemas
04-19-2013, 11:31 AM
I am also wondering if anyone can think of other ways to encourage grouping a lot without "outlawing" solo'ing as some have mentioned.

Increase the grouping xp modifier until it is at least as beneficial as soloing, leave solo xp alone.

porigromus
04-19-2013, 12:23 PM
I enjoy reading about other's ideas. I think it is fun to see what people think would improve the game. I hope one day we get to see how Nilbog and Rogean think Everquest should have been after Velious has been out a while.

I believe that they wouldn't do anything over the top, I for one trust them because they love EQ classic like us. Maybe we will get a new server starting at classic that isn't customized while this server goes goes on to be Nilbog's vision.

I would too encourage grouping in someway over solo if I was to customize the server, I would increase the group xp bonus to the more you have in party the more xp you recieve.

I would also find a way to remove currency from the game in a way to prevent saturation. The rarer the gear you are wearing, the more costly to repair or possibly a tax to use city utilities such as banks and vendors. I would add a option to pay an existing NPC in the city to allow you to interact with the NPCs granted faction allows. The tax increases as you level and it must be paid after a number of game time days continously.

After doing both of these things, I would tweak all classes to give them a unique way to solo outdoor regular mobs (all outdoor mobs would have their strength lowered and dungeons would have mob strength increased).

Though grouping would provide the most experience points, while you are looking for a group you would be able to kill and gain xp. By the time a character could solo in a dungeon they mobs would con green and not provide any xp.

Named mobs would still drop the same nice items but I would also add quest to existing NPCs that would be epic in length that would allow other avenues of obtaining the same items.

Lastly I would provide a way for all guilds to have a chance to raid. Most all raid zones would be instanced and have the gear drop rate reduced by an extreme amount. Some may not like this but I think it would add to the game. Also after entering an instance, you will be locked to that instance for two weeks.

My main goal would be to not make any of my changes visible in game changing the asthetics of EQ. No blinking you NPCs named "Pay taxes here" or moving zones around, etc. I hate that about some of these custom EQemu servers. Shards of Dalaya is the worst offendor. I also hate all these EQemu servers that start you in some random zone with npcs in lines handing out gear and buffs etc.

It's no longer a world. Even the instances I speak of wouldn't be visible.

eqravenprince
04-19-2013, 02:15 PM
I would make forming a group way easier and with less downtime waiting on people to arrive.

1. EQ needs a player search screen where I can tell if a person is in a group or not, what zone they are in, what class they are, and comments on what they are looking for "group, raid, don't bother me, etc".

2. Speed up how fast a person can arrive to group. It could be done in a variety of ways, but the easiest way might be every player gets a port to group skill that can be used once every hour.

3. Upon death, you respawn with your equipment and in a safe spot in the zone. If it's a dungeon, you respawn at the entrance in the zone outside of the dungeon. You also get your port to group skill button re-enabled after a few minutes to safely get back with the group.

4. Give every player a skill to exit a dungeon that they can use once an hour. So when that Warrior wants to leave, the whole group doesn't have to stop their progress and fight back to the entrance.

5. Experience for grouping should be about double or maybe triple that of soloing.

For me, it's all about maximizing what makes the game fun for me and minimizing what isn't fun. Whatever gets me in a group quickly and fighting quickly makes more sense than all these artificial time sinks that are not fun. But with that being said, there are people that actually enjoy finding ports, getting binds, running through multiple zones to get to the group, nakid corpse runs, sending tells to people that may or may not be in a group in order to form a group, and helping group members get back to the entrance who want to leave the group. I personally do not, which is why I usually solo.

Frieza_Prexus
04-19-2013, 02:24 PM
The suggestion I liked the most was giving paladins increased resistances - follow me for a second.

I always thought it was a bit awkward that warriors were the only raid tanks out there. It seemed silly that the knights were just reduced to off tanking something at best. There should have been Raid NPCs that were specialized casters. Imagine if Innoruuk fought with resistible harm touches instead of just melee hits. You'd want someone with both a good AC and very high resistances available to tank it. We saw these types of encounters a bit in PoP, but imagine if there were certain circumstances where you'd want a paladin tanking over a warrior. Not only would such varied encounters be refreshing, it'd give knights something to do.

fadetree
04-19-2013, 03:25 PM
I would make forming a group way easier and with less downtime waiting on people to arrive.

1. EQ needs a player search screen where I can tell if a person is in a group or not, what zone they are in, what class they are, and comments on what they are looking for "group, raid, don't bother me, etc".

2. Speed up how fast a person can arrive to group. It could be done in a variety of ways, but the easiest way might be every player gets a port to group skill that can be used once every hour.

3. Upon death, you respawn with your equipment and in a safe spot in the zone. If it's a dungeon, you respawn at the entrance in the zone outside of the dungeon. You also get your port to group skill button re-enabled after a few minutes to safely get back with the group.

4. Give every player a skill to exit a dungeon that they can use once an hour. So when that Warrior wants to leave, the whole group doesn't have to stop their progress and fight back to the entrance.

5. Experience for grouping should be about double or maybe triple that of soloing.

For me, it's all about maximizing what makes the game fun for me and minimizing what isn't fun. Whatever gets me in a group quickly and fighting quickly makes more sense than all these artificial time sinks that are not fun. But with that being said, there are people that actually enjoy finding ports, getting binds, running through multiple zones to get to the group, nakid corpse runs, sending tells to people that may or may not be in a group in order to form a group, and helping group members get back to the entrance who want to leave the group. I personally do not, which is why I usually solo.

1, 4, and 5 might be ok, but I'd hate to see 2 and 3. This is supposed to be a hard game. Learning how to plan for and handle dungeon travel is part of the deal. And, death should always suck hard, no popping up in a nearby spot with equiment for me, thanks. That kind of thing is what ruined live.

eqravenprince
04-19-2013, 04:23 PM
1, 4, and 5 might be ok, but I'd hate to see 2 and 3. This is supposed to be a hard game. Learning how to plan for and handle dungeon travel is part of the deal. And, death should always suck hard, no popping up in a nearby spot with equiment for me, thanks. That kind of thing is what ruined live.

I'm with you on it is supposed to be a hard game. I just disagree on what in the game should be hard. I think content should be harder, not setting up and getting to the content. In EQ the group game becomes painfully easy if you got a full balanced group. What makes it hard is getting that group together and setup, that's not fun at all. Fun is fighting to me. Make that hard.

eqravenprince
04-19-2013, 04:27 PM
Ever play WoW or EQ2? You might like it.

Thanks for your insight. While the death mechanics of WoW or EQ2 are better, there are plenty of things about those games that I don't like. Without getting into too much detail, I didn't like WoW because I couldn't stand the cartoony graphics. While the graphics in EQ2 were better, the game just seemed too rigid, I never felt the freedom I do in EQ, hard to explain I guess.

One Tin Soldier
04-19-2013, 04:45 PM
I don't hate your ideas. If you set up a server with those rules I'd probably give a it a try.

The main thing that stood out to me though is what you gave pallies. A random chance to proc a fairly weak group heal while using yaulp and a lot of resists. My main back in the day was a paladin so I feel I have to whine for all pally-kind.

A randomly occuring heal spell isn't going to look very attractive to anyone I don't think. Why would anyone get excited about that when they will still need a dedicated healer in the group anyway?

And the resists, while nice, aren't going to mean a whole lot untill the raiding stage of the game. As someone who just doesn't have any interest in raiding it wouldn't thrill me all that much. At times it would be nice to have but....meh.

And you're also giving warriors a lot more agro controll which cuts into one of the primary reasons why people would choose a hybrid tank over a warrior.

So, that's how I feel about that.

On another subject I think you are getting a little carried away with the experience nerfs.

Also, since I personally don't care at all for the end-game as it exists currently on P99 I wonder if you have any ideas for doing things different there.

Faerie Blossom
04-19-2013, 04:56 PM
OP's server sounds very cool, but it's missing one key component: pvp.

Frieza_Prexus
04-19-2013, 05:00 PM
And the resists, while nice, aren't going to mean a whole lot untill the raiding stage of the game.

I think the paladin resist change would have to be more than just some extra numbers. It implies a sweeping change to both the resist mechanics and the design of encounters. I think the goal would be to create a class that is universally tougher tanking all forms of damage and shrugging it off be it melee or spell while warriors remained as the kings of straight up melee tanking. By giving paladins such massive resists, you could make them extremely desirable for encounters tuned to specifically require that skill set. Imagine that if instead of flurrying, the AoW proc'd a fear or a 1200 point DD. A knight might be preferable.

While we're throwing out hypothetical changes, CH should never have existed in its current form. It should have either a massive cool down, or it should cost X mana per point of damage healed. You could make it still be very efficient, but the cost is that it will drain a lot more mana.

I'd also like to see epics completely reworked. Making them all weapons was completely stupid and it totally invalidated so many items in the game. The rogue epic should have been a cloak or boots. The wizard epic could have been a ring or a hat. Sure, some of the epics could have been weapons, but to do it across the board was just silly and it homogenized everyone. Gone were the days of melees fighting over what weapons to use, they all just equipped their epics and called it a day.

Kika Maslyaka
04-21-2013, 10:44 AM
IMHO one of the inherited EQ class disbalance problems is that there supposedly 3 potential tank classes, yet one of them has such a huge mitigation bonus, that in 90% of encounters warrior is automatically preferred over knights. Similarly, out of 3 healers, only one is considered to be true raid healer. That forces raids and sometimes even groups to go beyond mandatory holy trinity concept of tank+healer+dps to even much more restricted and class specific war+cleric mandatory base. The better approach would have been to put all tanks on equal level damage mitigation wise but give then 2ndary rank variety. Same way, all healer classes should be equally potent raid level healers - each capable of raid healing, but with a different approach (see how EQ2 did healers).

And yes, old EQ raids are too blunt - all boss mobs end up with insane melee and occasional Death Touch/AOE for flavor. Funny how Verant diehard DnD fans never thought about it as extremely dull.

Swish
04-21-2013, 10:52 AM
I dunno I think you're coming at it with a better level of hindsight than they ever had. Games moved on, WoW came along and shook up the raid scene a ton (then trivialised it to shit)...we look through our "2013 sunglasses" and 1999 content looks uninspiring, flat and even boring.

My memories of raiding Velious/Luclin/PoP saw improvements for sure (though flagging in PoP for me was a bastard as I couldn't attend as many raids as a Euro player on a US server as I'd have liked :p).

Point taken though, there's no eclipsing CH or a well geared warrior's damage mitigation.

porigromus
04-21-2013, 11:28 AM
IMHO one of the inherited EQ class disbalance problems is that there supposedly 3 potential tank classes, yet one of them has such a huge mitigation bonus, that in 90% of encounters warrior is automatically preferred over knights. Similarly, out of 3 healers, only one is considered to be true raid healer. That forces raids and sometimes even groups to go beyond mandatory holy trinity concept of tank+healer+dps to even much more restricted and class specific war+cleric mandatory base. The better approach would have been to put all tanks on equal level damage mitigation wise but give then 2ndary rank variety. Same way, all healer classes should be equally potent raid level healers - each capable of raid healing, but with a different approach (see how EQ2 did healers).

And yes, old EQ raids are too blunt - all boss mobs end up with insane melee and occasional Death Touch/AOE for flavor. Funny how Verant diehard DnD fans never thought about it as extremely dull.

I think everyone forgets you are comparing hybrids to pure classes. I am sorry if the hybrid isn't hybrid enough, that is another topic. Maybe they should have their hybrid skills improved. A hybrid though should not do the job equally of a pure class.

WoW screwed up there game eventually the same way because no one understands a hybrid. A hybrid is a mix of two or more classes and should be

Kika Maslyaka
04-21-2013, 11:57 AM
I think everyone forgets you are comparing hybrids to pure classes. I am sorry if the hybrid isn't hybrid enough, that is another topic. Maybe they should have their hybrid skills improved. A hybrid though should not do the job equally of a pure class.

WoW screwed up there game eventually the same way because no one understands a hybrid. A hybrid is a mix of two or more classes and should be

this is EXACTLY what is the problem with EQ - you have pure classes who will always be better in a group/raid situation, where all the hybrids will be sub-par and you have hybrids who do better at solo (thought nowhere as good as a "pure" necro and with hideous Xp penalty)

The proper approach would be think about ALL classes as hybrids where a class has a PRIMARY role and a SECONDARY role. For example:

Paladin: Primary - Tank, Secondary: Support Healer

where

Warrior: Primary - Tank, Secondary: Support Melee DPS

This way each tank class can tank (read mitigate) equal well, but each can have his own side perk.

If you don't do this you will always have a situation where pure class will exist only for raid purpose, and hybrids only for soloing, essentially playing 2 different games on the same server.

Concept of a "hybrid" works well in a single player game, or in a more solo friendly MMO, but not in a hard core group/raid oriented game like EQ.

webrunner5
04-21-2013, 12:50 PM
[QUOTE=Kika Maslyaka;928845]this is EXACTLY what is the problem with EQ - you have pure classes who will always be better in a group/raid situation, where all the hybrids will be sub-par and you have hybrids who do better at solo (thought nowhere as good as a "pure" necro and with hideous Xp penalty)

Well I think that is why Sony-Devs came up with AA's to help even out classes. The problem with P1999 is even when Velious comes out a Ranger, SK, Pally will still not be worth a crap. Mobs hit hard as hell in Velious meaning a Warrior and a Cleric are king even more plain and simple in a group.

Arterian
04-21-2013, 04:21 PM
Many of these suggestions are why EQ begin heading toward easier progression and why WoW is easy mode.

As much as the difficulty of EQ added to its charm, at the end of the day, people tend to enjoy easy vs. hard.

Swish
04-21-2013, 04:47 PM
...people tend to enjoy easy vs. hard.

I'd say its more to do with Blizzard's WoW subscribers being typically younger than Verant/SOE's where EQ was concerned.

Levels of ADHD have increased in the last 10-15 years and certainly where I'm from I can see kids are more distracted and have ever shortening attention spans (more distractions, iPods, smartphones, etc). That kind of stuff filters into the game. If an encounter is too hard, people might unsubscribe because "the game is stupid". As long as the bucks roll in, the game is considered successful.

Problem is now though, people have seen their hard work go to the dogs each time as Blizzard trivialises and gives the smaller casual guilds the chance at the same gear...happened as early as The Burning Crusade, I worked for weeks/months to get to the top of the PvP ladder on my server during vanilla (10-15 of us versus another 10-15 on another premade team) to then see the window lickers just buy shit up like it was nothing :(

To those who earnt it, it sucks to see everyone wearing/wielding it. That's just my take on Blizzard, shitting on the "try hards" to keep the casuals subscribed :p Quit during WotLK when big fight PvP got stupid with Death Knights pulling random people into a mob of 40 to be gangraped. Saw the Panda expansion and figured it'll be dead soon... I guess they must have found a set of younger players again :)

So easy versus hard... hard wins for me every time. Learning an encounter or putting the required effort in was part of the fun :)