Suicide Kings Raid Proposal

[astarothel]

Suicide Kings Raid Proposal (Last updated: June 21, 2010)


Outline
This Suicide Kings raiding proposal is an adaptation of the Suicide Kings loot distribution system.

Suicide Kings is essentially a dynamic list formed to decide what raid group has the right to engage a mob. It allows for target prioritization, and fairness while maintaining a competitive atmosphere and rewarding those groups which put forth the effort to know when a raid target is available.

I know many of you will be thinking "Wow, that's way too long, there's too many rules". Be rest assured it is only to ensure the integrity of the system as a whole and avoid potential loopholes -- the actual mechanics of Suicide Kings are straightforward.

While it is my hope that raid groups can all get along in a competitive, and courteous manner, and that none of the reprimands for committing acts unseemly acts are needed, but experience has taught me it is best to lay out punishments for said behaviour ahead of time.

Raid Targets
The following is a list of current raid targets that will be followed for Suicide Kings.
PoSky targets will be incorporated once full details are known and the zone is released.

Voxx
Nagafen
Cazic
Inno
Maestro
Draco

Random trash clears in Planes while there is no raid target to claim in a zone are free for all, although

Types of Raid Groups and the Suicide List

There are three distinct types of raid groups that will be recognized for entry into the Suicide Kings "Suicide list".

The first is a guild raid group. A guild group/s raid must consist of a 2/3 majority of its members belonging to their affiliated guild.

The second is a coalition raid group. A coalition raid group must consist of two to four smaller guilds that have chosen to engage on an extended agreement to raid targets cooperatively. A coalition raid group must consist of a 2/3 majority of its members belonging to their affiliated coalition. A coalition raid group's component guilds may not simultaneoously belong to both a guild raid group and a coalition raid group.

The third is a premeditated pickup group hereafter referred to as a PUG raid group. A pug raid group cannot consist of more than ten members from the same guild, or one third of the raid force, whichever is less.

The Suicide List
All registered raid groups are entered into a numbered list. Position on the list, as shown later on will be a significant factor in engaging a raid target.

Position on this list will be randomly rolled for by raid groups at the inception of Suicide Kings.
Any group wishing to enter into the Suicide Kings system must declare their intent to enter into the system.
After a one week waiting period, they will be allowed to roll a random number based upon the number of guilds on the list,
and placed at that spot on the list.

An example list at the inception of Suicide Kings after rolling would be as follows:
1. DA
2. Remedy
3. IB
4. Divinity

If an upcoming raid group, for example Wrathful Inquisition, felt they were ready to raid, they would declare on the forums their intent to raid and be entered onto the list. After a one week wait, they would roll a number between 1 and 5 and be placed on the list accordingly. If they were to randoms a three the updated Suicide List would look as follows:

1. DA
2. Remedy
3. WI
4. IB
5. Divinity

Raid Group Inactivity

If, over the course of two full weeks, your raid group has moved neither up nor down on the Suicide List your raid group will be deemed inactive, and removed from the list. If you wish to be entered into the Suicide List again after those two weeks your group will be required to abide by the one week waiting period before you are eligible to raid again. Bouncing between active and inactive could be considered a form of List Manipulation, so please abstain from doing so excessively.

List Manipulation

The one week wait before being added to the Suicide List is an unfortunate necessity to prevent attempts at manipulating the list.
Without it there would be nothing to stop raid groups from forming and dissolving until they received a good roll in number.

Any attempts to pervert or distort the Suicide List will be severely punished.
If a guild or raid group should pseudo-splinter in an attempt to claim more mobs this would be another example of manipulating the list in an attempt to get more targets. Such an action will result in the splinter group being removed completely from the Suicide List and require another waiting period should they wish to continue to raid, after which time they will be placed at the dead bottom of Suicide List. The main group will be considered to have suicided to the bottom of the list for attempting to manipulate the list, may not move up any places on the Suicide List for a period of one week, and in this time may only engage raid targets deemed to be free for all.

Should it be necessary to verify or vindicate claims of list manipulation and collusion via chatlogs, a GM may be called in and their decisions deemed final.

In the event of a merger of one or more raid groups they will inherit the worst position on the Suicide list one of their component groups held. They will not however be required to declare their intent to raid again.

Rollcall and the Initial Claiming Procedure

When a raid target is up, it is the responsiblity of each individual raid group that wishes to raid it to know its availability, be it through
tracking, or other forms of intelligence gathering.

The first individual to establish a raid target is up in a zone must screenshot a /shout across the zone annoucing the target is up, along with a /who of the zone. This shout opens a 10 minute window where any raid group present (or otherwise informed of the target being up) must declare they are present and which raid group they represent in a /tell to the individual that opened the 10 minute window, or by using a similar zonewide /shout in the raid target's zone. In the case of disputes over the 10 minute window, these timestamped rollcall screenshots will be used as the primary source of evidence.

There is no minimum number of people required to claim or opt in, simply knowledge that the target is up, and participation in the rollcall.

Of the raid groups aware the target is available, the highest on the Suicide List has five minutes to decide whether they will be the first to engage the target, or if they will pass. If that group opts to engage, they have "Suicided", and their place on the list is lowered to one spot beneath the lowest listed group present. If the highest eligible in group present opts to pass, the next highest receives the option to engage with another five minutes to decide, and so on. Should it progress to the lowest numbered raid group present on the list, they are free to engage it at no cost -- they have no further to suicide.

In the rare likelihood the lowest raid group on the totem pole opts to not engage the target, the raid target is declared free for all.

Engagement

Engagement of a raid target occurs after a group has opted to suicide (or in the off chance they are not required to suicide). The raid group that suicided has a two hour window to attempt to kill the raid target. Due to the nature of some encounters which require the clearing of associated trash, this two hour window begins when the last trash mob is killed.

Failure to Engage

There is no undoing a suicide. If you opt for a suicide, and are unable to follow up and engage the mob it is the fault of your raid group. If the raid group has not engaged the raid target and pulled by the halfway point of their two hour window, they will likewise have suicided for nothing and the option to suicide in and claim the mob resumes where it normally would on the Suicide List. This one hour mark includes any necessary mobilization time, so it is important to be ready to go when your raid group opts to suicide.

Selfless Suicide

There is no such thing as selfless Suicide. One raid group cannot opt to take a Suicide, and then give their raid target over to a different raid group. If the raid group wishes to pass on any further attempts following their Suicide, the option to Suicide resumes where it left off on the list.

Rules of Engagement

As previously mentioned, the raid group that suicided has two hours to down their target barring any failure to engage.

No other raid groups, or their members present in the zone, shall attempt sabotage via training or other douchebaggery within this two hour window. To do so will cause your raid group to suicide straight to the dead bottom of the list, in addition to any punishment GMs decide inflict upon guilty individuals.

The Two Hour Window

The two hour window immediately begins after a suicide, and any required and associated trash is killed. It is highly recommended that the start of a window is recorded with a timestamped screenshot in the event of a dispute over when a window opens and closes.

At the end of that two hour window the next group down on the list present at the rolecall will have the option to suicide to one spot under the group which had previously engaged the target. The group currently attempting to defeat the raid target will be required to break off further attempts, and in the case of the window ending mid-attempt, stop any further attempts upon the target after that attempt is completed. If the next group eligible to suicide choose to pass, the option to do so travels further down the list.

Should no other groups wish to suicide on the target at that time, the group who took the suicide for the target is eligible to continue with no need to suicide again.
If said raid group should give up on raiding their target, and no other raid group wishes to suicide in, the raid target is deemed free for all.

Raids in Progress

Through the course of a raid if a new raid group becomes aware a raid target is up one of two things happens.

1) If the raid group currently engaging the mob did not have to suicide on (because no other raid group was aware of the target, the raid target was declared a FFA target, or the raid group can claim the target indefinitely because they are the lowest on the Suicide List), a fresh two hour window is granted to the raid group currently attempting the target, after which the second raid group can opt to suicide in.
2) If a window has been called and is already in place, the new raid group is eligible to suicide in when the window closes if they are in the appropriate position on the list, or they will move up in the event another raid group suicides in before them.

Free For All Targets

There are two free for all targets in Suicide Kings

1. Spawned planes trash when no raid targets are up.
2. A raid target that has passed through the initial claim procedure, and those eligible raid groups present have passed.

Both types of FFA targets will still abide the no douchebaggery policy and its punishments. Negative interference such as training will still be punished as if it were a raid target within a two hour window.

FFA raid targets can be opted into for suicide by a group later on, subject to the rules outlined in above.

In the event a raid group is clearing trash and one of the raid encounters within the zone spawns the situation is resolved as normal via Suicide Kings. Just because you're there clearing trash doesn't give you any dramatic edge. Of course if no one else is there tracking and knows about it you're free to engage, no suicide required.

Repeat Offenders

Offenses for raid groups are accrued and cumulative.

A raid group's first offense for training and interference will be one week at the bottom of the list. A raid group's second offense for training and interference will be two weeks, and so on.

A raid group's first offense for Suicide List manipulation is they may not move up any places on the Suicide List for a period of one week, and in this time may only engage raid targets deemed to be free for all. A raid group's second offense for Suicide List manipulation is two weeks, and so on.

Suicide List Management and Maintenance

Management of the Suicide List will be done in a restricted thread in the forums to prevent trolls and outside interference from shitting up the post. Four or five members per raid group will be granted posting privileges. For guild and coalition raid groups it is highly recommended eligible posters be officers.

The first post in the thread will have the initial Suicide List.
A reply to the thread will be made each time a raid target is claimed.

The thread reply should use the following template:

Raid Target:
Suicide by:
Raid groups present:
Date:
Suicide Time:

Updated Suicide List:
1.
2.
3.
[...]

[astarothel]

Reserved for addenda and discussion points.

[Akame]

I may not be raiding yet but if I can vote I'd like to vote no, I really am against any system that allows the rights to a mob to be determined before it is spawned.

[Taxi]

I need my lawyer to take a look at it first.

[Aadill]

I may not be raiding yet but if I can vote I'd like to vote no, I really am against any system that allows the rights to a mob to be determined before it is spawned.

Actually rights are determined by whoever is present when the mob spawns. You are already aware of your spot in line, though.

Astarothel: Am I mistaken in thinking that it was originally one engage = end of suicide i.e. if you screw up that's it?

[Akame]

Actually rights are determined by whoever is present when the mob spawns. You are already aware of your spot in line, though.


Yes but you are still saying if guild A is there and guild B is there and guild A is higher on this "list" than guild B, they have first rights.

It may be a slightly twisted description but it still stands, a predetermined right to the mob due to outside influence. It goes against the idea of competition and a pickup group is under no compulsion to ever follow the rules of this list.

[Beau]

100% against any form of rotation. It does not make provisions for open raiders and not only makes it very difficult but discourages growing guilds from joining the competitive raid scene. I am fairly certain there are enough people on this server that would be in opposition to rotations for one reason or another that it's honestly not even worth bringing up. It's a nice gesture but I personally came back to this server for a classic feel. I don't know about your servers but where I came from you had to compete and earn your keep. It wasn't just handed to you. That's just boring.

[astarothel]

Actually rights are determined by whoever is present when the mob spawns. You are already aware of your spot in line, though.

Astarothel: Am I mistaken in thinking that it was originally one engage = end of suicide i.e. if you screw up that's it?

Right now as written the raid group's suicide is good for their full two hour window (provided they haven't pooched it by failing to engage).

It allows for a little bit of wiggle room if a GM has to reset an encounter, a quarter of your raid DCs (like always somehow happened to in classic >> LOLVOXX), raid groups that are just learning an encounter, etc. Learning isn't as much issue in the content we have right now, but when Sky comes out it certainly will be.

[astarothel]

not only makes it very difficult but discourages growing guilds from joining the competitive raid scene.

A growing guild can either coalition up with another group of people to form a raid group or sign up themselves under Suicide Kings.

A growing guild that enters into the Suicide List will receive the benefit any raid group at the bottom of the list does with an increased availability of easier, lower priority targets.

A growing guild would not be forced to camp 15+ in a zone like is currently happening, and requires only one tracker to participate in the rollcall.

A growing guild will face as many challenges under the FFA policy you would prefer as they would a straight rotation. They would just be different types of challenges.

I am fairly certain there are enough people on this server that would be in opposition to rotations for one reason or another that it's honestly not even worth bringing up.

I am also fairly certain that there are enough people on this server in opposition to FFA. This is what is deemed a "compromise" between FFA and a straight rotation. It is also not so different from the unstated rotation currently in place between guilds that camp to /roll for it or switch it up.

I am also fairly certain there are enough people on the server that would argue what the correct time in on the atomic clock is, and how many hours there are in a standard day.

It's a nice gesture but I personally came back to this server for a classic feel.

Many people did. That's why they're here.


I don't know about your servers but where I came from you had to compete and earn your keep. It wasn't just handed to you.

You are correct, you don't know what servers I came from, but rest assured they were ones that never had a rotation.

Your raid group is responsible for the chance you have a target, that is what makes it competitive. Your raid group is in no way obliged to tell another group when a raid target is available. Nothing in Suicide Kings is straight up handed to you.

[Skope]

So the drawing of position is done a week beforehand? and when/how?

I don't agree with some of the timers. I think 10minutes is a tad short, and I think the 2 hours after a full clear is way too long. I'm also not quite sure how it addresses an engagement prior to a full clear (something like draco and leaving the northern part of fear up). I also think that it may be a bit too open for new guilds to join the suicide kings system (or at least the draw). A guild who can kill naggy/vox in a single try shouldn't have to be waiting for 3-4 other guilds who are clearly not in contention to have their timers tick away so the big guild gets their shot.

I'm assuming it's essentially a rotation system, but instead of being "gifted" a raid mob you're responsible for being there during or shortly after it's spawn to be get a fair shot. I do think it's a great idea, but I believe the hardest part will be having these 4 guilds agree on anything atm.

[Loke]

Anyone who read the Nizzarr thread can probably guess that I am against any sort of rotation and already think that we have too many rules governing raiding on this server. That being said - as I told astarothel in game - if FFA (or as close to FFA as possible) isn't an option and a rotation style system must be implemented - I think this is far superior to a straight rotation (i.e. guild a gets mob 1, guild b gets mob 2 - switch next week).

Regardless of what happens - I'd like to applaud your effort in putting this together. While it not be the system that I personally want, it is definitely a well put together proposal and an interesting idea.

[Skope]

The GMs definitely don't want an FFA system as it would create even more problems for them (if that's even possible). I think a mix of FFA with rotation, such as this suicide kings system, is a great idea. Hopefully we'll see some effort behind pushing this forward


EDIT: are all raid mobs on their own individual draw? Or is it a single lottery with your choice as to which to pick?

[Akame]

Where was it stated the GM's would not allow an FFA raiding system? I'd like that one in writing because I can't think of any better way to kill the enjoyment of raiding than to implement any form of list or rotation system and fully intend to not put one foot in that direction.

[Aadill]

The important thing to remember is that only the active participants move around on the list. If only guilds A and B show up consistently, you may see just guilds A and B switching off targets while everyone else is inactive. If guild C shows up every once and a while, then there isn't as large of a kink in the chain as there would be like there was in the original rotation ruleset. Even with all 4 guilds participating, you have to be on your toes and able to mobilize and defeat the encounter within a reasonable timeframe; it's not handed to you.

The only thing that this still doesn't take into account is future raid encounters but it is implied they can be added as needed.

[astarothel]

So the drawing of position is done a week beforehand? and when/how?


At the onset of SK, those wishing to be included I figured would just /random 100 it all in the same zone and then placing them in order hi to low would be the SK list.

The one week waiting period is to stop people from just trying to roll in to get good numbers, and then dissolving/going inactive/etc. Their random would be done with other guilds to witness and be from 1 to X, where X is the current number of raid groups +1 (the one being them).

There was some discussion amongst people I mentioned this to that new additions to the list should be forced to start at the bottom after their week waiting period and not get to roll in at all. I left it at a /random in for now because that makes it more PuG friendly.

I don't agree with some of the timers. I think 10minutes is a tad short, and I think the 2 hours after a full clear is way too long.

Noted, the timers are one of the major things up for discussion. Two hours is in part looking forwards to new content like PoSky that will have issues and challenges that need to be overcome.

I'm also not quite sure how it addresses an engagement prior to a full clear (something like draco and leaving the northern part of fear up).

When I referred to associated trash I meant the trash that was needed to safely engage a boss. I can go back and amend that as needed.

I also think that it may be a bit too open for new guilds to join the suicide kings system (or at least the draw). A guild who can kill naggy/vox in a single try shouldn't have to be waiting for 3-4 other guilds who are clearly not in contention to have their timers tick away so the big guild gets their shot.

One week roll in, plus the inactive are simply the deterrents I came up with, along with the Failure to Engage stuff. Two hours isn't that incredibly long to wait for something like Voxx in my eyes, and as I mentioned PoSky _is_ coming. :)


I'm assuming it's essentially a rotation system, but instead of being "gifted" a raid mob you're responsible for being there during or shortly after it's spawn to be get a fair shot.

Thanks for the awesome summation for all those people that are going to see it and go TL;DR.

My three main goals with a proposition like this is to
1) End raid target camping
2) Being back tracking to ensure a degree of competition
3) Stop just /rolling at a raid target when two groups are there. Some groups will perpetually have a horseshoe up their ass, while others get shit on by Lady Luck frequently.

I believe the hardest part will be having these 4 guilds agree on anything atm.

That would be a safe assumption but I won't know for sure unless I try.

[Akame]

You know I didn't think I'd done anything worthy of being completely ignored today.

[astarothel]

are all raid mobs on their own individual draw? Or is it a single lottery with your choice as to which to pick?

One list for all raid targets. You move up and down according to your raid group's presence at any target when it's up.

[randomer]

i like the idea its a shame ib wont agree to anything that would let anyone else enjoy the server!

[Aadill]

Please keep flames like that out of this thread. This is a matter that is being presented here as a level of transparency and as a forum of discussion for future discussion and approval (or not) at the next guild meeting.

[sidgb]

For the most part this looks good....except.

The raid types are too restrictive. Nothing should preclude a guild sponsoring a raid and filling out its ranks as they see fit. A raid half guild and half pug is just as legitimate as any other claim under these guidelines.

[Akame]

Please keep flames like that out of this thread. This is a matter that is being presented here as a level of transparency and as a forum of discussion for future discussion and approval (or not) at the next guild meeting.

No one has responded to my concern about non premeditated pickup raids yet. I'm waiting for the discussion.

[Skope]

For those of you calling it a rotation system, please take a good look at the current rules and then stop and think a minute. It is far FAR from a rotation system, and in fact favors activity and a more FFA style than the rules we have now.

With the camping that's going on, guilds (two of them, really) are picking targets as if they were raiding on a rotation system, with the other guild generally picking another uncamped target. With the suicide kings system guilds won't have an incentive to camp and will be forced track and to mobilize immediately after a spawn (something that really hasn't been happening the past 2-3 weeks whatsoever). This is actually more in line with an FFA system that favors guilds that are active, mobilize well -- and if the timers are figured out -- guilds that are well organized.

[Aadill]

For the most part this looks good....except.

The raid types are too restrictive. Nothing should preclude a guild sponsoring a raid and filling out its ranks as they see fit. A raid half guild and half pug is just as legitimate as any other claim under these guidelines.

The first is a guild raid group. A guild group/s raid must consist of a 2/3 majority of its members belonging to their affiliated guild.

The third is a premeditated pickup group hereafter referred to as a PUG raid group. A pug raid group cannot consist of more than ten members from the same guild, or one third of the raid force, whichever is less.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guild raid filling out 1/3 of it's ranks = on permanent SK list as a guild, or can apply to become one when necessary.

PuG with 1/3 of it's memebers as a single guild entity = possibly maintained on SK list, or at least with premeditation appears on the list at the appropriate time.

There is a small gap in there but that's what the coalition type is for. If a guild is struggling to maintain 50% of a raid force as it's composition it probably shouldn't be raiding as a guild. If that's the case just recruit a few more members to put themselves under the 1/3 or 10 cap

[Aadill]

No one has responded to my concern about non premeditated pickup raids yet. I'm waiting for the discussion.

There are no targets that are going to live long enough for on-the-spot pickup raids to happen, at the moment.

[astarothel]

For the most part this looks good....except.

The raid types are too restrictive. Nothing should preclude a guild sponsoring a raid and filling out its ranks as they see fit. A raid half guild and half pug is just as legitimate as any other claim under these guidelines.


The raid group would still be responsible for it being their suicide, they can't get a second entry into the list.

The rules as written are in place mainly to stop any smurfing by "splinter" groups, and to prevent guilds from giving away their suicide.

I admit the weakest link in Suicide Kings is the problem of how to deal with raid groups that are not formed from a majority of one guild -- leaving it open enough for non guild raids while avoiding massive bloat on the Suicide List.

[Akame]

There are no targets that are going to live long enough for on-the-spot pickup raids to happen, at the moment.

So this system is only valid until when? Kunark?

[Kainzo]

The suicide loot system was flawed, so is this.

[astarothel]

So this system is only valid until when? Kunark?

After Kunark opens up, I suspect that several of the targets would be eligible to be reclassified as FFA. Those targets required for epics might still have to be on the list.

[Akame]

The raid group would still be responsible for it being their suicide, they can't get a second entry into the list.

The rules as written are in place mainly to stop any smurfing by "splinter" groups, and to prevent guilds from giving away their suicide.

I admit the weakest link in Suicide Kings is the problem of how to deal with raid groups that are not formed from a majority of one guild -- leaving it open enough for non guild raids while avoiding massive bloat on the Suicide List.

What is going to keep members of DA from disbanding and calling themselves a Pug? Also in an opposite argument, how is this fair to guilds with twice the population as other guilds who are only allowed a chance at loot as often as guilds half their size? Are they expected to just "deal with it" when they can mobilize double raids at the moment?

(If you want me to take this seriously, expect me to pick apart every hole you've got in this).

[Akame]

After Kunark opens up, I suspect that several of the targets would be eligible to be reclassified as FFA. Those targets required for epics might still have to be on the list.

No, you are not going to be able to list epic mobs. Even non raiding guilds will want a chance at epic mobs when they won't be normally raiding themselves and therefore will not want to be on a full target list. Next thing you'd know you'd have individual lists by raid boss and it'd be care bears and rainbows for everyone. At best you can hope for is to use a system like this until Kunark/Epics come out.

[Kraftwerk]

The suicide loot system was flawed, so is this.

Glad you took time out of your day to troll a valid topic in Server Chat forum.

Stating something is wrong or flawed without support or reasoning =/ an argument or discussion. Keep attempted flames out of this thread unless you are going to actually support your claims not just make them and vanish.

[Beau]

For those of you calling it a rotation system, please take a good look at the current rules and then stop and think a minute. It is far FAR from a rotation system, and in fact favors activity and a more FFA style than the rules we have now.

With the camping that's going on, guilds (two of them, really) are picking targets as if they were raiding on a rotation system, with the other guild generally picking another uncamped target. With the suicide kings system guilds won't have an incentive to camp and will be forced track and to mobilize immediately after a spawn (something that really hasn't been happening the past 2-3 weeks whatsoever). This is actually more in line with an FFA system that favors guilds that are active, mobilize well -- and if the timers are figured out -- guilds that are well organized.

It will be a rotation. Because people will not be dumb enough to lose their once every few weeks targets. And if you think camping still wont happen no matter what the set rules are you are kidding yourself.

[astarothel]

The suicide loot system was flawed, so is this.

Every system will be flawed in some manner.

Simply stating that the original Suicide Kings loot system was flawed, and that the variation proposed is _also_ flawed without stating any reasons to why is neither helpful, nor productive.

[Kinamur1999]

What is going to keep members of DA from disbanding and calling themselves a Pug? Also in an opposite argument, how is this fair to guilds with twice the population as other guilds who are only allowed a chance at loot as often as guilds half their size? Are they expected to just "deal with it" when they can mobilize double raids at the moment?.

I would say yes. Guilds that can't camp a raid target for a week have to "deal with it"

If the raid rules change guilds will change and adapt as they did before.

[Skope]

What is going to keep members of DA from disbanding and calling themselves a Pug? Also in an opposite argument, how is this fair to guilds with twice the population as other guilds who are only allowed a chance at loot as often as guilds half their size? Are they expected to just "deal with it" when they can mobilize double raids at the moment?

(If you want me to take this seriously, expect me to pick apart every hole you've got in this).

Windows are +/- 48 hours, and you sometimes see two mobs in a very short amount of time. Big raid guilds should be big by choice, not by necessity. Currently it's the latter, as they need people from different time zones and many members to make sure they'll have 15 in a zone for 3-4 days before the target pops. if they choose to remain big, then that's ultimately something they chose :P

EDIT: Beau, I hope you realize that many don't WANT to camp, they're doing it because they're forced to. It sure as hell ain't fun, and it's not very productive. It's burning people out at an incredible rate, so why are they camping again? Because they want to leave their PC on for 3-4 days even if it doesn't give you a clear advantage at all? No. If camping a zone doesn't give you a drastic advantage then you'd better believe it'd stop.

The only reason to camp with these rules would be because you can't mobilize fast enough, or quite frankly don't care any other targets other than a couple. Even then the camping wouldn't help unless you were #1 on the list.

[astarothel]

if you think camping still wont happen no matter what the set rules are you are kidding yourself.

What incentive to camping will there be, when one tracker has as much chance to opt to engage as a group of fifteen?

The only advantage camping would have is that your mobilization time would be shorter, thus giving you more attempts and tries at the target within your window.

[Akame]

Windows are +/- 48 hours, and you sometimes see two mobs in a very short amount of time. Big raid guilds should be big by choice, not by necessity. Currently it's the latter, as they need people from different time zones and many members to make sure they'll have 15 in a zone for 3-4 days before the target pops. if they choose to remain big, then that's ultimately something they chose :P

Well currently it produces results, at the moment we're all trying to force them to conform to player rules outside of game mechanics because everyone else wants a shot too.

[astarothel]

What is going to keep members of DA from disbanding and calling themselves a Pug?

See the section on List Manipulation. The punishments are _not_ very pleasant at all. Your quandry is also the reason for the raid composition numbers and one week wait in period as written right now.

There's possibly better solutions to handle this sort of thing, but it definitely did come up in discussion with a few people.

how is this fair to guilds with twice the population as other guilds who are only allowed a chance at loot as often as guilds half their size? Are they expected to just "deal with it" when they can mobilize double raids at the moment?

Two raid targets pop almost simultaneously? More trackers so more targets covered? There's a couple reasons large guilds are still viable.

[Akame]

See the section on List Manipulation. The punishments are _not_ very pleasant at all. Your quandry is also the reason for the raid composition numbers and one week wait in period as written right now.

There's possibly better solutions to handle this sort of thing, but it definitely did come up in discussion with a few people.

Two raid targets pop almost simultaneously? More trackers so more targets covered? There's a couple reasons large guilds are still viable.

Right but they aren't allowed to go after both mobs correct? Are you expecting the GM's to remove the 48 hour variance on the mobs?

[Kainzo]

Glad you took time out of your day to troll a valid topic in Server Chat forum.

Stating something is wrong or flawed without support or reasoning =/ an argument or discussion. Keep attempted flames out of this thread unless you are going to actually support your claims not just make them and vanish.

Well, I actually had a well thought out reply but I jumped the gun and hit the first line, I'm at work, I read these forums leisurely until a call comes in.

I'll go ahead and opt not to post what I had spent the last 20 mins writing, because it obviously will fall on deaf ears.

In short, any system is better than no system at all, this is true. However, which system is chosen is best decided by the guilds who are doing the targets day in and day out. Something the leadership should decide on. A de facto system is already in, its just not really anything, anyone likes. I also propose a FFA system, a chaotic harmony if you will, so that the deciding factors, the ones who kill the targets, can gain much needed perspective to see what they would rather be doing.

It will give a chance for the guilds attempting these targets to see that a compromise must be met or continued conflict will result. Temporary anarchy is usually a good thing for things such as this. Pain, or wasted time/loss of items, is needed to have a clear unbiased union for all parties.

Something like this should not be enforced by the server staff either, it should be community based, as it was in classic.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Personally, I think this system is terrible. I also think the current situation and anything else we've come up with so far are worse.

Until someone comes up with something brilliant, this is our best proposal. Mad props to Astarothel for all the work he put into this.

[sidgb]

Guild raid filling out 1/3 of it's ranks = on permanent SK list as a guild, or can apply to become one when necessary.

PuG with 1/3 of it's memebers as a single guild entity = possibly maintained on SK list, or at least with premeditation appears on the list at the appropriate time.

There is a small gap in there but that's what the coalition type is for. If a guild is struggling to maintain 50% of a raid force as it's composition it probably shouldn't be raiding as a guild. If that's the case just recruit a few more members to put themselves under the 1/3 or 10 cap

Actually a lot of guilds use this method of composite raid as a way to increase their numbers. They build a core and invite prospective others to fill out the raid. Thereby showing off their ability to organize and mobilize in an efficient way.

By my thinking they are the biggest threat to more bloated guilds controlling content with sheer numbers.

I think we can agree the pug option was only included because no one truly expects it to be a factor under this system.

[astarothel]

I think we can agree the pug option was only included because no one truly expects it to be a factor under this system.

A pug gets more boned in a FFA system than it does under SK in my eyes.
Why? Because by the time you are all set and ready to pull, another more organized guild or raid group will have killed it fifteen minutes ago. At least under SK you can plan ahead, ensure numbers, raid composition etc and send out a tracker. This is why I called it a predetermined pug raid group.

Do I think a pug raid group would sign up for Suicide Kings, get their waiting week period done, roll in and then sit waiting for Voxx to pop her entire window? Probably not. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be given accommodation and chance to do so under the ruleset.

I loved pugging raids, I just think that they need to be incorporated into the system. "We're a pug we don't have to follow your rules" is a cop out, especially when they have just as much a chance as any other group under the proposal.

[Skope]

A pug gets more boned in a FFA system than it does under SK in my eyes.
Why? Because by the time you are all set and ready to pull, another more organized guild or raid group will have killed it fifteen minutes ago. At least under SK you can plan ahead, ensure numbers, raid composition etc and send out a tracker. This is why I called it a predetermined pug raid group.

Do I think a pug raid group would sign up for Suicide Kings, get their waiting week period done, roll in and then sit waiting for Voxx to pop her entire window? Probably not. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be given accommodation and chance to do so under the ruleset.

I loved pugging raids, I just think that they need to be incorporated into the system. "We're a pug we don't have to follow your rules" is a cop out, especially when they have just as much a chance as any other group under the proposal.

We need to keep in mind that pug raids only came into the scene during kunark, when the old classic stuff wasn't on perma-lockdown and many guilds simply bypassed targets like draco/maestro and sometimes inny/CT. I think pug raids should only be addressed when they actually prove a threat to the current guilds. I know that may sound like somewhat of a harsh statement, but I can't think of a single instance where a pug downed a raid target in the past 3-4 months.

[Aadill]

Addressing issues that we know will arise later is a good way to build a more solid ruleset that doesn't have to be cobbled together on the fly. That's why the original rotation didn't work - no one accounted for more guilds to join in.

[sidgb]

A pug gets more boned in a FFA system than it does under SK in my eyes.
Why? Because by the time you are all set and ready to pull, another more organized guild or raid group will have killed it fifteen minutes ago. At least under SK you can plan ahead, ensure numbers, raid composition etc and send out a tracker. This is why I called it a predetermined pug raid group.

Do I think a pug raid group would sign up for Suicide Kings, get their waiting week period done, roll in and then sit waiting for Voxx to pop her entire window? Probably not. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be given accommodation and chance to do so under the ruleset.

I loved pugging raids, I just think that they need to be incorporated into the system. "We're a pug we don't have to follow your rules" is a cop out, especially when they have just as much a chance as any other group under the proposal.

Oh, I agree completely.

I am just trying to say it's a non-threatening option in most people's minds at this point that would not present an obstacle to agreement to this plan. But, there are a lot of people being excluded between alliance raid and pug raid that are legitimate threats to availability of content. Some guilds want to raid with potential recruits, not alliances. That is unless they are trying to steal members of other guilds which opens up a whole new source of fodder for the flame boards.

Anyway, time will tell I suppose.

How would a PuG raid leader get recognized and gain access to the closed forum?

[sidgb]

We need to keep in mind that pug raids only came into the scene during kunark, when the old classic stuff wasn't on perma-lockdown and many guilds simply bypassed targets like draco/maestro and sometimes inny/CT. I think pug raids should only be addressed when they actually prove a threat to the current guilds. I know that may sound like somewhat of a harsh statement, but I can't think of a single instance where a pug downed a raid target in the past 3-4 months.

You exclude anyone from fair participation in your ruleset you give them the right to operate outside it in every way.

[Gandite]

Personally, I think this system is terrible. I also think the current situation and anything else we've come up with so far are worse.

Until someone comes up with something brilliant, this is our best proposal. Mad props to Astarothel for all the work he put into this.

There isn't anything brilliant to come up with. Any solution will ultimately involve collusion hidden behind the thin veil of cooperation. Collusion, as game theory tells us(lol pun), works until someone cheats. Someone will in fact most certainly cheat at some point leading to a collapse and an even greater shitfest than what we have now.

Live alleviated this problem by putting content into tiers and putting up roadblocks for guilds. This spread the hardcore endgame playerbase across content like butter on hot bread. It worked fairly well but there has always been and will always be fighting amongst guilds and players. I'm surprised at how venomous it is on this server and its forums, but that is partly because we're all allowed to essentially run fucking wild with little to no worry of being punished.

All that nonsense said this suicide kings shit is rubbish.

[astarothel]

Personally, I think this system is terrible. I also think the current situation and anything else we've come up with so far are worse.

Until someone comes up with something brilliant, this is our best proposal.

Couple things I would like to say on that note.

Suicide Kings is not perfect, there are definitely areas where it is weaker than others. I will be the first to admit that.

Suicide Kings is not my ideal choice for raiding either. I am relatively competitive, take pride in my in game achievements, and would prefer a more FFA system than that which I have proposed.

That being said, I think that at this juncture in time Suicide Kings is feasible where others like a FFA or straight rotation would not be.

We would all love to see Kunark. The GMs would love to work on Kunark.

FFA at this juncture would be a mess that would require heavy GM intervention initially, and who knows how long it would be before things settled down between accusations at other guilds, claims of GM favoritism or fallibility, and the like. The current raiding environment and even forums are poisoned -- hopping straight into a FFA situation will be a snakepit. Who knows how long Kunark would be if they need to spend that much time babysitting us.

An enforced rotation would be a whole other clusterfuck of rules that will have to be perpetually reviewed to ensure all raid groups have followed them., in addition to any GM required situations.

Unlike either of the other two situations I believe strongly Suicide Kings *CAN* work where the others would ultimately fail and need more GM involvement, whether it is having to forever check first to engage, or ensure a guild is actually moving in on their rotation target.

There is the distinct possibility that after things calm down Suicide Kings could transition to a different system with fewer rules, or open it up to be more FFA. The reality is that sort of thing can only happen when the server tones down the present levels of hatred and dickery, and as it stands right now if I have to choose between a FFA clusterfuck, continued camping or Suicide Kings I will take Suicide Kings every time.

[astarothel]

All that nonsense said this suicide kings shit is rubbish.

Thanks for your particularly relevant and progressive input as to why this Suicide Kings shit is rubbish!

As for tiers being the way to go, Suicide Kings favours the route of target prioritization. This is what opens up raid content to other raid groups. If a raid group wants to ensure their shot at Voxx it will mean they will potentially give up one or more targets along the way.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

What stops guild <ABC> from not joining the suicide kings list, and then camping the zone and just killing the raid mob while the people on the SK list are busy going through their procedures to determine who will get the shot?

[astarothel]

What stops guild <ABC> from not joining the suicide kings list, and then camping the zone and just killing the raid mob while the people on the SK list are busy going through their procedures to determine who will get the shot?

Point noted.

Mechanically? Nothing as it stands right now.
The idea is to get all raid groups on board so it won't be an issue.

You can always hope that people would opt to not fuck over an entire system the majority of the server has agreed upon, but you just pointed out one case when dipshits could.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

To be honest, I do not favor your system over FFA, but I damn sure favor it over a traditional rotation.

That said, I would like your system to be as refined as well as it can be to make sure we are aware of any potential problems should your system be chosen by the majority.

[astarothel]

To be honest, I do not favor your system over FFA, but I damn sure favor it over a traditional rotation.

That said, I would like your system to be as refined as well as it can be to make sure we are aware of any potential problems should your system be chosen by the majority.

Me too on both cases.

[Jify]

WTB coles notes.

[astarothel]

Coles Notes super short version:

Numbered list of raid groups/guilds
Each is reponsible for tracking mobs and knowing when they're up
When a target pops those groups represented at the target go to the list to see who has first shot.
If they take their chance they go to one spot on the list beneath the lowest group that was there.
If they pass it goes to next on the list present to choose if they want it or not.

[Cyrano]

Couple things to say here:

1) Whoever called that guy a flamer for saying Suicide Kings as a loot system was flawed is missing the point of why the original Suicide Kings was developed in the first place. Later in EQ, and notably in WoW, guilds must clear through various easy targets to get to the "good loot bosses". Guilds that use DKP often had to deal with upgrade attrition due to people hording DKP, thus rather than helping themselves and the guild by taking minor upgrades they would let items rot in order to maintain higher DKP ranking. Suicide Kings offset this by not punishing the lower value members on upgrades, if you're at the bottom of the SC list why not take every minor mainset and offset item right (whereas in DKP you could go into an endless hole)? Once you catch up in gear you can start biding your time to climb up the list.

The reason Suicide Kings is flawed for this server is because we do not have that attrition with raid mobs. We currently have a handful of targets with two tiers; Gods/Dragons on the upper half and Draco/Maestro on the lower. As such, there are a ton of people fighting for a few things whereas Suicide Kings was meant to get people to take items who NEEDED them, not determine who should lay claim when multiple people or groups were arguing over said claim.

2) I have yet to see a PUG legitimately compete for anything on this server. As it stands now if you guys wanted to make a 200 person pug to camp something you could do it, there is no room for that on this form of Suicide Kings.

What this tells me is that people championing the PUG corollary need to realize that your time will come (as has already been stated) when the raiders move to level 60 and go after Kunark and Velious. Do you really think IB and DA will spend their time competing for Maestro/Draco or a level 52 capped Naggy/Vox?

3) This is a rotation whether you want to admit it or not and completely takes out the competition aspect of it unless there is certain collusion leading to the FFA scenario which, by your standards, is against the rules. Going forward with the collusion, if IB or DA can do certain mobs with roughly 20 people and we now have 40+ active members, why shouldn't we be able to splinter off into two guilds? Why is a guild merger considered acceptable but a separation is not?

4) What we need are less rules, not more. This system will lead to more waiting, arguing, and ultimately less killing all in the name of what? Keeping a headache for the GMs? I have a solution for the GMs - STOP LISTENING TO PETITIONS OR COMPLAINTS ABOUT PLAYER RULES - if there isn't blatant training, ksing, or cheating the GMs really shouldn't be involved and those going to pester them should be ignored. If you want to talk about saving GMs time, think of all the finger pointing that will go along with issues of collusion for SC. According this system GMs will check logs and parses... we know the nature of the server so who's going to stop everyone from pointing fingers anytime a boss is up? And then what happens when the GMs become disconnected and stop enforcing it and true collusion runs rampant due to their lack of involvement?

5) The time constraints are ridiculous. Two hours to clear Naggy or Vox? And who is going to be there to police whether or not the guild attempting a target is compromised of the correct percentage of members? What's to stop a guild from simply tagging random pickup people to keep their side of the deal kosher?

Asto you know I like you, but this idea is not a fit for P99. We simply have too many knowledgeable players with a wealth of experience. In my opinion who gets what mob should come down to dedication; not a pseudo-rotation. Currently dedication is measured in time sitting a mob, will that change? I imagine it will, but this doesn't seem to be the answer.

[Wonton]

didn't read because I don't know who you are, sorry. Astarothe? an erudite tradeskill whore? it would be cool if I actually knew you in game rather than having to read these god forsaken forums.

[astarothel]

Going to address a couple of Cyrano's points.

First, SK DKP and SK for a raid rotation written it are quite obviously different. I wanted to offer a way to change the current state of raiding as it stands right now.

The simplest way to deter camping would be to offer it no advantage in a ruleset. Even if the camping were agreed upon to be stopped right now, another guild in three weeks might try it and it simply escalates right back to camping and countercamping.

Right now camping guilds are /randoming when something pops, or making an unofficial rotation. Despite often being that guy with the horseshoe up his ass (See: Sunday) I think there's a better way to handle who gets to go. A dynamic list allows for some degree of prioritization of targets to take place between tiered mobs.

As it stands now if you guys wanted to make a 200 person pug to camp something you could do it, there is no room for that on this form of Suicide Kings.

Sure there is. They can wait their week just like every other raid group that wants in does.

This is a rotation whether you want to admit it or not and completely takes out the competition aspect of it unless there is certain collusion leading to the FFA scenario which, by your standards, is against the rules.

Don't see how it gets rid of competition. It's actually the exact same as what is happening right now, except you only need one tracker there to roll rather than one tracker and 14 other semi afk people.

As for collusion and list manipulation it had specifically to do with me being worried groups on the list would create secondary smurf groups in order to get more chances in. "This is totally our raid group we suicided with. What do you mean there's only actually 5 of us in the guild and everyone else is from another raiding group on the list". I will review that section of the proposal and word it better.

You could try and convince everyone to pass to make it go to FFA if you really wanted, except there's not much benefit to actually passing for the last group on the list represented there. I don't really see _that_ as collusion, since it offers no advantage.

if IB or DA can do certain mobs with roughly 20 people and we now have 40+ active members, why shouldn't we be able to splinter off into two guilds?

If crossover between the two wasn't likely I wouldn't really see a problem with it, except that it would be. You'd basically be given twice the number of spots on the list.

In short, if IB split into two separate entities for some reason and pursued separate raiding that would be one thing, but if they split into IB1 and IB2 with overlap in their Suicide Listed raids it wouldn't be kosher.


Why is a guild merger considered acceptable but a separation is not?


I already explained why separations could be perceived as a problem.
The merger would actually be removing one or more entities from the Suicide List altogether.


What we need are less rules, not more. This system will lead to more waiting, arguing, and ultimately less killing

This entire concept started as six lines. It is players seeking nonstop loopholes in everything that made me have to spell out every single minute detail and possibility. They'll seek loopholes in any system used, it won't matter.

think of all the finger pointing that will go along with issues of collusion for SC. According this system GMs will check logs and parses... we know the nature of the server so who's going to stop everyone from pointing fingers anytime a boss is up? And then what happens when the GMs become disconnected and stop enforcing it and true collusion runs rampant due to their lack of involvement?

The GMs' only major role in SK was just like it is now -- to ensure that people who train and interfere are accounted for.

You took far too broad an account for collusion as I mentioned earlier. Their role in List Manipulation would only be to look out for smurf guilds essentially giving away their suicide.


The time constraints are ridiculous. Two hours to clear Naggy or Vox?

That includes any time to get there, so for Voxx that's getting to Perma. Two hours for an encounter seems like a lot now, but as I said it is a cushion for a multitude of things. In Sky it would certainly be nice to get in multiple attempts on things for learning purposes. One and outs are going to be very painful with new content, especially if theres as many surprises in store for us as Aeolwind has promised.

And who is going to be there to police whether or not the guild attempting a target is compromised of the correct percentage of members? What's to stop a guild from simply tagging random pickup people to keep their side of the deal kosher?

The raid percentages were there as all I could think of to stop any aforementioned smurfing suicides. If anyone has a better idea, feel free to let me know.

In my opinion who gets what mob should come down to dedication; not a pseudo-rotation. Currently dedication is measured in time sitting a mob

If camping a mob with 15+ people is dedication, then I won't be dedicated -- I will find another way to enjoy my time on P1999 aside from raiding, either with alts or research and tradeskill implementation.

[nicemace]

personally im for a rotation TYPE system, but more of a ruthless rotation.

-dont need to announce to anyone mob is up, guilds should be responsible for their own tracking... as long as your tracker/whatever has timestamp with trackwindow of mob or actual visual of mob you are good to go.

-1 attempt and 1 attempt only... you fuck up and wipe. too bad. LD's? too bad get better internet. If no one is challenging you for the spawn then sure you can take another shot. but if another guild has 15 - 20 (not yet decided) ready to go and you wipe, they get next shot with a 30 min timer on them (assumed you have recovered from your wipe and rdy to go again)

-as little as possible engage timers, obviously for plane clearing shit, can be altered but 1 hour to get people there, buff up and start fighting for naggy and vox is fair. but pretty much you want it so the guild that is up for their turn HAS to get their ass into gear and be on game, if people slack off... the first guild with 15 - 20 there after the 1 hour from spawn of mob gets first shot.

all of the above means other guilds can still pressure whoever is up on the rot and if they make any mistakes can come in and take the mob.

essentially you need a system that has no room for errors and does not cater to people who stuff around. this is what will create the competition between guilds.

then you just have a basic rot to figure out 'first shots' and first shots only.


lets just say divinity is up on voxx and they get unlucky and voxx spawns at 4am, DA have a tracker and catch the spawn, batphone and people start logging on to move to perma. for the first hour from 4am divinity have first shot, but if they cant muster the force or fail on their first engage DA can swoop in and take the mob.. this means divinity lose their mob and has no affect on DA's position in the rotation.

but of course if voxx spawns in the middle of the day and divinity is on in full force, they can get there, have an hour to engage, buff up and get the kill.. this means they actually get some mobs of sorts.



i sure as hell dont want a basic rot that gives guilds as much time as possible to ensure that they get whatever mob each week. thats just boring and gay. but i also want a system that isnt a complete cluster fuck like FFA (stupid idea people) and gives good chances to other guilds who are on their game to 'steal' mobs from the rotation.

but i dont really care cause i can keep camping forever :D

[astarothel]

personally im for a rotation TYPE system, but more of a ruthless rotation.

-dont need to announce to anyone mob is up, guilds should be responsible for their own tracking... as long as your tracker/whatever has timestamp with trackwindow of mob or actual visual of mob you are good to go.

-as little as possible engage timers, obviously for plane clearing shit, can be altered but 1 hour to get people there, buff up and start fighting for naggy and vox is fair.

You realize that both of these are effectively in Suicide Kings right?

Nothing requires you to announce to another raid group when a target is up if no one else is there. You aren't there too bad. I think I might know where you got that from so I will make it a little clearer in the original post.

I standardized the timer for all encounters out of simplicity. You have one hour to engage after a suicide regardless of target, otherwise the second hour of your two hour window is forfeit. This includes getting there.

[girth]

Give me FFA or give me death!

[Cyrano]

This entire concept started as six lines. It is players seeking nonstop loopholes in everything that made me have to spell out every single minute detail and possibility. They'll seek loopholes in any system used, it won't matter.

And it won't stop so long as you keep putting in rules, that's the nature of this server.

The solution is FFA with perma-banning for blatant and repeated training, ks'ing, and cheating.

[kaos057]

When I heard about this server I was excited. Could it be true? The EQ that was actually fun all over again? Then I saw this thread. I don't even want to install the game now. You claim that this is classic EverQuest but Verant never had any kind of rotation list on any servers. In your FAQ you should put something more like "Classic EQ the way we think it should have been." At least then people won't get the wrong impression.

[Akame]

This entire concept started as six lines. It is players seeking nonstop loopholes in everything that made me have to spell out every single minute detail and possibility. They'll seek loopholes in any system used, it won't matter.

Until you get to page six typed with all the addendum's added it probably won't be functioning properly. You MUST address every potential loophole when creating a system you expect people to abide by. The civil majority doesn't want to be bad, or cheat, but the civil majority is also LAZY!!! Unless it is addressed it falls in a gray area and gray areas get trampled into the ground in the laziest person's favor.

When I heard about this server I was excited. Could it be true? The EQ that was actually fun all over again? Then I saw this thread. I don't even want to install the game now. You claim that this is classic EverQuest but Verant never had any kind of rotation list on any servers. In your FAQ you should put something more like "Classic EQ the way we think it should have been." At least then people won't get the wrong impression.

Remember this is just one players suggestion, I think in reality they aren't going to be able to implement any form of list system at all, it goes against the entire nature of EQ and will crumble quickly if implemented, already it's been shown it can't really be used post Kunark, so at best even if every loophole in the system were addressed and the whole thing enforced, you are still talking about only a few months worth of use.

[Erasong]

people keep saying FFA, correct me if im wrong but didnt the devs say they do not want FFA? They feel theyll have to babysit more. It doesnt matter if they will or will not, or if you think they are wrong, or if you have some foolproof way to avoid it. They said no, move on. Its crying spilled milk at this point and if we want to fix the 100% everyone agrees shitty situation right now, people need to wake up and seriously consider other opotions they may not like a lot, but are more viable that lolcampfor4days raiding atm.

[Beau]

I would imagine the gm stance would be something along these lines Elaida-

posted by Nilbog 6/16/2010 -
You misunderstand. I said "we do not care wtf you do" as long as we do not have to hear about it. I *personally* agree with a first to engage type ruleset. The current setup and operation of things do not allow for this. We want to make EQ, not mitigate your raids. You could all mutually agree to settle your disputes with PVP for all we care. You could impose a first to engage scenario on each other based on your own logs. The issue is whether or not it is brought to us. When you summon a guide or GM, expect results based on our server rules.

With 6ish raid targets and your huge guilds, I assume some degree of camping would still be happening. It amazes me that there are so few guilds for so many people. You could create competition with yourselves if you made new guilds.

We need a solution that makes sense. *GM-enforced* rotations make no sense to me. Player-made ones do, if that's what you want. GMs should be used for extraordinary circumstances but are presently being called for petty disputes over who gets what pixels.

Is there not a poet amongst you? Designate an ambassador and talk to your rival guild.

[Extunarian]

When I heard about this server I was excited. Could it be true? The EQ that was actually fun all over again? Then I saw this thread. I don't even want to install the game now. You claim that this is classic EverQuest but Verant never had any kind of rotation list on any servers. In your FAQ you should put something more like "Classic EQ the way we think it should have been." At least then people won't get the wrong impression.

It's a good thing this guy didn't join, considering everyone on this server gets started as fully geared level 50. At the character select screen you simply check either the IB or DA box, then you are immediately transported to your home city of Sol A.

Indeed, a non-binding debate on one of many possible raid plans should certainly be considered a deal breaker.

[Erasong]

I pretty much got from that quote that it may be that as a player the GM's would want FFA but they recognize how its not really possible currently. Pretty much from the first line or two from the quote. Not trying to go 1 for 1 with ya just defending my original position that the saber rattling of FFA! FUCK YEAH! isnt helping. I seriously doubt that it would happen and im in the camp that wish it would. I truly believe this suicide kings method is a fair compromise ( comprimise? w/e i suck at spelling ).

[G13]

And it won't stop so long as you keep putting in rules, that's the nature of this server.

The solution is FFA with perma-banning for blatant and repeated training, ks'ing, and cheating.

People would just sit on the boss spawns spamming bard songs with FFA

The raid encounters in EQ are not designed very well. It's basically one straight shot to each mob through some trash. The only exception is Fear and CT summons every damn mob in the zone if you engage him early.

[Beau]

I pretty much got from that quote that it may be that as a player the GM's would want FFA but they recognize how its not really possible currently. Pretty much from the first line or two from the quote. Not trying to go 1 for 1 with ya just defending my original position that the saber rattling of FFA! FUCK YEAH! isnt helping. I seriously doubt that it would happen and im in the camp that wish it would. I truly believe this suicide kings method is a fair compromise ( comprimise? w/e i suck at spelling ).

I like ya man, you're a good guy. I just don't agree on this. What may seem fair to some is the direct opposite of what many others would like to see. It would be a compromise no doubt. But a fair compromise? Hardly.

And I should clarify I guess when I say "FFA" I have been referring to first to engage, that is just how we always referred. Now I'm understanding people are calling "ffa" just everyone engaging and the ultimate victor would be the group with the most dps. That is just silly.

But yeah, can first to engage work? I would imagine as easy as any other raid rules would work to include this one proposed. There will always be someone who has a problem with it. And as I stated earlier, I personally would never be in support of any form or variation of a rotation. And I know there are many who would agree with that. It eliminates the competition, and is no fun.

Nice work on the proposal. I know you worked hard and it's very well organized and makes great sense for what you are trying to accomplish.
But like I said, I don't agree with it at all. :(

[Beau]

And it won't stop so long as you keep putting in rules, that's the nature of this server.

The solution is FFA with perma-banning for blatant and repeated training, ks'ing, and cheating.

That is what I agree with :)