My America

[Alawen Everywhere]

These are hard times in America. Our economy is in disarray and many of us are out of work. Some of us have even lost our homes. Our manufacturing capacity is diminished. We are at odds with ourselves over two unpopular wars with no end in sight. Our immigration policies are troublesome. Our political process is overrun by special interests and we have lost faith in our politicians. We are watching a corporation from another nation destroy our southern shores.

It has become fashionable to discuss the fall of the American empire. Intellectuals compare us to Rome and nod wisely at one another.

So easily we forget what is right with America. Despite our shortcomings and failures, this remains the greatest experiment in the history of the world. We are the bright light of liberty and justice. We continue to believe in the rule of law and the rights of man.

Even as our corporations are villified, they are creating technologies to help feed a hungry world, produce cleaner energy, expand communications to all mankind and protect both our allies and our enemies from barbarism and destruction. Even as our educational institutions are disdained, they attract and educate the brightest minds from all countries and cultures, helping to develop tomorrow's leaders and entrepeneurs and philanthropists.

When there is disaster and hardship in the world, America is the first to stand up and offer help. Year after year, this country accused of greed and selfishness digs deep and sends out more aid than any other in the form of our young volunteers, our soldiers, our food and our financial assistance. We stand accused of exploiting the world's poor, yet it is we who help more than any other to develop industry, education and democracy in the poorest countries.

We are accused of racism and xenophobia, yet our doors are open and we are the melting pot of the whole world. She still stands there, Lady Liberty, in New York Harbor, welcoming the world's outcast and downtrodden. The teaming masses bypass our system and we do our best to accommodate them. We take them into our hospitals and cure them when they are sick, educate their children and make them citizens, and help them build a better life than the one they left.

The American dream is still alive. We can all feel it, deep down, a fire that we all share, burning in our bellies. We will overcome these dark days. Our system of life promotes individualism and creativity. We will rebuild our industries and infrastructure. We will drive the corruption from our government. We will develop technologies to create clean energy. We will fix our health care system. And, yes, we will conquer the stars. We are Americans and we don't know how to give up. We know how to dream and strive and make those dreams come true.

My name is Alawen Everywhere, and I am proud to be an American patriot.

[astarothel]

Americans are people.

All people can:

Create or Destroy
Love or Hate
Fail or Succeed

"The world is my country, mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." (Thomas Paine)

[ryuut1]

all i know is i fought in iraq and some cops still give me traffic tickets. assholes.

[Daywolf]

Three facts:
1. We owe our victory in the Revolutionary war to Pirates.
2. We owe our form of democracy to Pirates that practiced democracy first in this land (on our seas nonetheless).
3. The world can shove it, this is my land, get your own.

[pickled_heretic]

We are accused of racism and xenophobia, yet our doors are open and we are the melting pot of the whole world. She still stands there, Lady Liberty, in New York Harbor, welcoming the world's outcast and downtrodden. The teaming masses bypass our system and we do our best to accommodate them. We take them into our hospitals and cure them when they are sick, educate their children and make them citizens, and help them build a better life than the one they left.


COMMUNIST

[Daywolf]

COMMUNISTActually I think it would be globalism. Communism they would actually need to be citizens rather than foreign invaders. Falls under fact #3 for my response. :)

[rioisk]

http://noadventure.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/nerd-46422.jpg

I say deep things on P1999 cause nobody listens to me irl.

[Taxi]

http://www.jedreport.com/pics/theonion.png

http://blogs.gnome.org/muelli/files/2009/06/america.gif

http://emergent-culture.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/killing-hope-william-blum-cia-covert-ops.jpg

US vetoes on UN resolutions:

1972-2002 Vetoes from the USA
---
Year -----Resolution Vetoed by the USA
1972 Condemns Israel for killing hundreds of people in Syria and Lebanon in air raids.
1973 Afirms the rights of the Palestinians and calls on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.
1976 Condemns Israel for attacking Lebanese civilians.
1976 Condemns Israel for building settlements in the occupied territories.
1976 Calls for self determination for the Palestinians.
1976 Afirms the rights of the Palestinians.
1978 Urges the permanent members (USA, USSR, UK, France, China) to insure United Nations decisions on the maintenance of international peace and security.
1978 Criticises the living conditions of the Palestinians.
1978 Condemns the Israeli human rights record in occupied territories.
1978 Calls for developed countries to increase the quantity and quality of development assistance to underdeveloped countries.
1979 Calls for an end to all military and nuclear collaboration with the apartheid South Africa.
1979 Strengthens the arms embargo against South Africa.
1979 Offers assistance to all the oppressed people of South Africa and their liberation movement.
1979 Concerns negotiations on disarmament and cessation of the nuclear arms race.
1979 Calls for the return of all inhabitants expelled by Israel.
1979 Demands that Israel desist from human rights violations.
1979 Requests a report on the living conditions of Palestinians in occupied Arab countries.
1979 Offers assistance to the Palestinian people.
1979 Discusses sovereignty over national resources in occupied Arab territories.
1979 Calls for protection of developing counties' exports.
1979 Calls for alternative approaches within the United Nations system for improving the enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms.
1979 Opposes support for intervention in the internal or external affairs of states.
1979 For a United Nations Conference on Women.
1979 To include Palestinian women in the United Nations Conference on Women.
1979 Safeguards rights of developing countries in multinational trade negotiations.
1980 Requests Israel to return displaced persons.
1980 Condemns Israeli policy regarding the living conditions of the Palestinian people.
1980 Condemns Israeli human rights practices in occupied territories. 3 resolutions.
1980 Afirms the right of self determination for the Palestinians.
1980 Offers assistance to the oppressed people of South Africa and their national liberation movement.
1980 Attempts to establish a New International Economic Order to promote the growth of underdeveloped countries and international economic co-operation.
1980 Endorses the Program of Action for Second Half of United Nations Decade for Women.
1980 Declaration of non-use of nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states.
1980 Emphasises that the development of nations and individuals is a human right.
1980 Calls for the cessation of all nuclear test explosions.
1980 Calls for the implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples.
1981 Promotes co-operative movements in developing countries.
1981 Affirms the right of every state to choose its economic and social system in accord with the will of its people, without outside interference in whatever form it takes.
1981 Condemns activities of foreign economic interests in colonial territories.
1981 Calls for the cessation of all test explosions of nuclear weapons.
1981 Calls for action in support of measures to prevent nuclear war, curb the arms race and promote disarmament.
1981 Urges negotiations on prohibition of chemical and biological weapons.
1981 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development, etc are human rights.
1981 Condemns South Africa for attacks on neighbouring states, condemns apartheid and attempts to strengthen sanctions. 7 resolutions.
1981 Condemns an attempted coup by South Africa on the Seychelles.
1981 Condemns Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, human rights policies, and the bombing of Iraq. 18 resolutions.
1982 Condemns the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. 6 resolutions (1982 to 1983).
1982 Condemns the shooting of 11 Muslims at a shrine in Jerusalem by an Israeli soldier.
1982 Calls on Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights occupied in 1967.
1982 Condemns apartheid and calls for the cessation of economic aid to South Africa. 4 resolutions.
1982 Calls for the setting up of a World Charter for the protection of the ecology.
1982 Sets up a United Nations conference on succession of states in respect to state property, archives and debts.
1982 Nuclear test bans and negotiations and nuclear free outer space. 3 resolutions.
1982 Supports a new world information and communications order.
1982 Prohibition of chemical and bacteriological weapons.
1982 Development of international law.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment .
1982 Declares that education, work, health care, proper nourishment, national development are human rights.
1982 Protects against products harmful to health and the environment.
1982 Development of the energy resources of developing countries.
1983 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 15 resolutions.
1984 Condemns support of South Africa in its Namibian and other policies.
1984 International action to eliminate apartheid.
1984 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1984 Resolutions about apartheid, nuclear arms, economics, and international law. 18 resolutions.
1985 Condemns Israel for occupying and attacking southern Lebanon.
1985 Condemns Israel for using excessive force in the occupied territories.
1985 Resolutions about cooperation, human rights, trade and development. 3 resolutions.
1985 Measures to be taken against Nazi, Fascist and neo-Fascist activities .
1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.
1986 Imposes economic and military sanctions against South Africa.
1986 Condemns Israel for its actions against Lebanese civilians.
1986 Calls on Israel to respect Muslim holy places.
1986 Condemns Israel for sky-jacking a Libyan airliner.
1986 Resolutions about cooperation, security, human rights, trade, media bias, the environment and development.
8 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to abide by the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of the Palestinians.
1987 Calls on Israel to stop deporting Palestinians.
1987 Condemns Israel for its actions in Lebanon. 2 resolutions.
1987 Calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon.
1987 Cooperation between the United Nations and the League of Arab States.
1987 Calls for compliance in the International Court of Justice concerning military and paramilitary activities against Nicaragua and a call to end the trade embargo against Nicaragua. 2 resolutions.
1987 Measures to prevent international terrorism, study the underlying political and economic causes of terrorism, convene a conference to define terrorism and to differentiate it from the struggle of people from national liberation.
1987 Resolutions concerning journalism, international debt and trade. 3 resolutions.
1987 Opposition to the build up of weapons in space.
1987 Opposition to the development of new weapons of mass destruction.
1987 Opposition to nuclear testing. 2 resolutions.
1987 Proposal to set up South Atlantic "Zone of Peace".
1988 Condemns Israeli practices against Palestinians in the occupied territories. 5 resolutions (1988 and 1989).
1989 Condemns USA invasion of Panama.
1989 Condemns USA troops for ransacking the residence of the Nicaraguan ambassador in Panama.
1989 Condemns USA support for the Contra army in Nicaragua.
1989 Condemns illegal USA embargo of Nicaragua.
1989 Opposing the acquisition of territory by force.
1989 Calling for a resolution to the Arab-Israeli conflict based on earlier UN resoltions.
1990 To send three UN Security Council observers to the occupied territories.
1995 Afirms that land in East Jerusalem annexed by Israel is occupied territory.
1997 Calls on Israel to cease building settlements in East Jerusalem and other occupied territories. 2 resolutions.
1999 Calls on the USA to end its trade embargo on Cuba. 8 resolutions (1992 to 1999).
2001 To send unarmed monitors to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
2001 To set up the International Criminal Court.
2002 To renew the peace keeping mission in Bosnia.

[mitic]

We are the bright light of liberty and justice. We continue to believe in the rule of law and the rights of man.


http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/778667/80650836.jpg

[ryuut1]

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f23/Rbless/nonono.gif

[mitic]

there is no real difference between old sovjet russia and the propaganda machinery of the united states of america.

alawens post is proof

[Excision Rottun]

Alawen are you a stand-up comic?


Also, this.

There are hard time in America.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Alawen are you a stand-up comic?


Also, this.

Thank you for the constructive comment. I fixed the typo.

It comes as no surprise to me that there are many who seem to have given up on America. I wish I could inspire you to stand up and harness your anger to do something, anything. There are many things that we need to improve. It all starts by believing that things can be improved and that you, personally, have the power to help.

The disaster in the Gulf of Mexico has been a wake up call for me. If we do nothing, the world will be continue on this path of ignorance, corruption, abuse, war and destruction. We have the choice, right now, beginning today, to use our powers for good and not evil.

I will not be taking part in any more tit-for-tat squabbling. The world needs me for other things. The world needs you, too. Your country needs you and your grandchildren need you. We can make this world a better place, but only if we work together.

[Excision Rottun]

Found a pic of Alawen:

http://i47.tinypic.com/j9sf43.jpg

[mitic]

If we do nothing, the united states of america will continue on this path of ignorance, corruption, abuse, war and destruction. We have the choice, right now, beginning today, to use our powers for good and not evil.

I will not be taking part in any more tit-for-tat squabbling. the united states of america needs me for other things. the usa needs you, too. Your country needs you and your grandchildren need you. We can make this world a better place, but only if we work together.

i agree

[Taxi]

Alawen, your country is the center through which emanates the fascist regime style support all over the world. One of the first thing you could do to help is remove those rose-tinted glasses.

Might i suggest, at the risk of sounding condescending, these news sources which will give you a different point of view than Fox news:

http://www.democracynow.org/shows/2010/6/21

(Yesterdays show with an hour long interview with Oliver Stone talking about his documentary about the changes happening in latin america)

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

http://www.commondreams.org/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/

http://english.aljazeera.net/

http://www.flashpoints.net/

http://electronicintifada.net/

[Excision Rottun]

^^^
Excellent post.

[yaaaflow]

America's action plan (1945-today):
1. Make broad statements and goals that highlight America as a great altruistic power who will fix the world.
2. Don't act upon those goals, instead go deeper and deeper into debt, continue bombing third world nations and work towards leading the world in the category of political corruption.
3. ???
4. profit

[Excision Rottun]

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/07/17/mn_casualty_of_war.jpg

[Daywolf]

*yawn*

http://storyfanatic.com/images/2007/06/us_canada_war.jpg

#3

[Aarone]

It comes as no surprise to me that there are many who seem to have given up on America. I wish I could inspire you to stand up and harness your anger to do something, anything. There are many things that we need to improve. It all starts by believing that things can be improved and that you, personally, have the power to help.

The disaster in the Gulf of Mexico has been a wake up call for me. If we do nothing, the world will be continue on this path of ignorance, corruption, abuse, war and destruction. We have the choice, right now, beginning today, to use our powers for good and not evil.

I will not be taking part in any more tit-for-tat squabbling. The world needs me for other things. The world needs you, too. Your country needs you and your grandchildren need you. We can make this world a better place, but only if we work together.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. - Mahatma Ghandi

[astarothel]

DemocracyNow is a good show, it's broadcast through my University's local radio station and usually coincides with a break in between my classes so I get to hear it a fair bit.

I recommend any American, be they Democrat, Republican or Libertarian, give it a listen because it reveals a lot of accurate information about workings of state governments at home and abroad that often gets swept under the radar of big media.

[ryuut1]

i just watch jon stewart like it's the most real news in the world.

and you know what it kinda informs me better than fox or cnn =P

[Omnimorph]

i just watch jon stewart like it's the most real news in the world.

and you know what it kinda informs me better than fox or cnn =P

http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/8194/John.jpg

John steward knows everything!

[Xenephex]

Alawen, your country is the center through which emanates the fascist regime style support all over the world.
And your country is Canada. Looks Like Alawen 1, Taxi 0 from here.

By the way, if you could translate that into Chinese, I think you'd have a hit.

[astarothel]

Looks Like Alawen 1, Taxi 0 from here.

Pretty sure a state supported healthcare is a +1. We'll call it a draw.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Canada's banking system is really solid, too. I think America would do well to emulate both of those Canadian systems. What I don't know is how to make that happen given the money and power behind the insurance "industry" and the financial "industry" in America. We could also use some lessons in campaign reform and environmental regulation.

I like Jon Stewart, too, and I think he's a bright guy, but he has some extreme biases. I also enjoy Rachel Maddow. For contrast, I like to read The Economist. I used to like The Wall Street Journal but I don't care for what has happened to it since Rupert Murdoch took over.

[Excision Rottun]

Canada's banking system is really solid, too. I think America would do well to emulate both of those Canadian systems. What I don't know is how to make that happen given the money and power behind the insurance "industry" and the financial "industry" in America. We could also use some lessons in campaign reform and environmental regulation.

Truth. Wow. I just agreed with Alawen.

Also, see our low crime rate and low prison population when compared with our southern neighbour (esp. gun crime). Another +1.

Yes, I just used a U in neighbour, the proper spelling.

[Taxi]

And your country is Canada. Looks Like Alawen 1, Taxi 0 from here.

The only place i could see myself living in the states is NYC or california, maybe Colorado as i think its one of the progressive places in the US. But having visited NYC in 2009 and seen how segregated it still is, i still prefer Montreal. You have to live here to appreciate it, NYC pretends to be a melting pot while everyone stays segregated in their own neighboorhoods.

My friend is of vietnamese origin, raised in Montreal and living in NYC. He says each time he comes back to Montreal its like a 1000 pound weight off his shoulders, because he says in NYC even the asians are segregated between themselves, cambodian Laotian, etc... and there is lots of racism there.

Single-payer healthcare system like someone mentioned, the list is long why i prefer living in Montreal rather than in the states.

I dont mean to turn this into a USA vs Canada flamefest but its another proof of your rose-tinted glasses, you thinking everyone obviously would prefer to live in the US rather than in their own country of origin.

Not to say i hate everything American right? Or else i wouldnt have listed democracy now!, wouldnt listen to american music, etc etc etc... The fact that i have to specify that im not "anti-american" is kind of telling of whats the atmosphere right now in the US, like you have to babytalk americans into reality. Or just slam them in the face with it, which is what i did in my first post.

I thought that what was annoying in your post is the misinformed naiveté of it, the HOO-RAH wrestling match USA USA USA! vibe to it, which is why i chose the slamming option.

[Erasong]

The only place i could see myself living in the states is NYC or california, maybe Colorado as i think its one of the progressive places in the US. But having visited NYC in 2009 and seen how segregated it still is, i still prefer Montreal. You have to live here to appreciate it, NYC pretends to be a melting pot while everyone stays segregated in their own neighboorhoods.

My friend is of vietnamese origin, raised in Montreal and living in NYC. He says each time he comes back to Montreal its like a 1000 pound weight off his shoulders, because he says in NYC even the asians are segregated between themselves, cambodian Laotian, etc... and there is lots of racism there.

Single-payer healthcare system like someone mentioned, the list is long why i prefer living in Montreal rather than in the states.

I dont mean to turn this into a USA vs Canada flamefest but its another proof of your rose-tinted glasses, you thinking everyone obviously would prefer to live in the US rather than in their own country of origin.

Not to say i hate everything American right? Or else i wouldnt have listed democracy now!, wouldnt listen to american music, etc etc etc... The fact that i have to specify that im not "anti-american" is kind of telling of whats the atmosphere right now in the US, like you have to babytalk americans into reality. Or just slam them in the face with it, which is what i did in my first post.

I thought that what was annoying in your post is the misinformed naiveté of it, the HOO-RAH wrestling match USA USA USA! vibe to it, which is why i chose the slamming option.

I got more of a feel of "loving a disfunctional family member even tho you know they are flawed becuase, hey, they're family". Nothing at all wrong with national pride. It didnt seem to boarder on the fanatical to me which would put me in the same boat as you if it were. BTW I live in NYC and I wouldnt call it racist here. I'd say prejudiced but not racist. There is a subtle difference.

[astarothel]

Canada's banking system is really solid

While I'm sure we'd like to take credit for that, our banking system as it is now by and large happened as a fluke. We pushed through some changes on bank monopolization a couple years prior that weren't necessarily all that grounded in economics. In fact, a number of the changes were advantageous to larger banks. Our condensed model was sheltered more in the recent financial crisis as a consequence :rolleyes:

[Xenephex]

The only place i could see myself living in the states is NYC or california, maybe Colorado as i think its one of the progressive places in the US. But having visited NYC in 2009 and seen how segregated it still is, i still prefer Montreal. You have to live here to appreciate it, NYC pretends to be a melting pot while everyone stays segregated in their own neighboorhoods.

My friend is of vietnamese origin, raised in Montreal and living in NYC. He says each time he comes back to Montreal its like a 1000 pound weight off his shoulders, because he says in NYC even the asians are segregated between themselves, cambodian Laotian, etc... and there is lots of racism there.

Single-payer healthcare system like someone mentioned, the list is long why i prefer living in Montreal rather than in the states.

I dont mean to turn this into a USA vs Canada flamefest but its another proof of your rose-tinted glasses, you thinking everyone obviously would prefer to live in the US rather than in their own country of origin.

Not to say i hate everything American right? Or else i wouldnt have listed democracy now!, wouldnt listen to american music, etc etc etc... The fact that i have to specify that im not "anti-american" is kind of telling of whats the atmosphere right now in the US, like you have to babytalk americans into reality. Or just slam them in the face with it, which is what i did in my first post.

I thought that what was annoying in your post is the misinformed naiveté of it, the HOO-RAH wrestling match USA USA USA! vibe to it, which is why i chose the slamming option.
I'm the one who brought up Canada, and it was intended as a joke, but if you want to go there... let's get real about it.

I grew up more or less at the latitude of Montreal; we had no racial problems where I lived either. Of course we only had one race. The nearest black people at that time were about 100 miles due south and playing football for Vince Lombardi. Oddly enough, I currently live just outside Atlanta in a small town that has been identified as one of the most ethnically diverse small towns on the planet.

In a town of around 7,000, students at the local high school were born in 54 different countries and nearly half the population is foreign born. I find this immensely satisfying, because this is a country built on (and made great by) immigration and diversity. Yes, every wave of immigrants has been met with resentment and mis-understanding; that is a part of our history too, but in the end they have always been absorbed into the great melting pot and made this a better place.

There's is no denying that this country has done some bad things, both in the past and recently. Above all, slavery and the subsequent decades of Jim Crow and segregation are an enormous shame virtually unmatched by any other civilized country. And we have sometimes behaved heavy handedly and ignorantly in our foreign affairs.

But, we have done good things as well. We have fought ably and at great sacrifice in two world wars and, as the phrase goes, never asked for more land than was sufficient to bury our dead. And our dead are buried in great numbers in places like Normandy.

Alongside, it should be noted, many Canadians, who fought as ably and in disproportionate numbers in both those wars. But, the history of the first of those wars (from Canada's perspective) highlights something about your country that ought to give you pause. Because as much criticism as can be rightfully laid at the feet of the U.S. in regards to our racial and ethnic difficulties, you still have to wonder at the long history of a country who really only ever had two significant ethnic groups.

Two groups who are as closely related as almost any pair of distinct countries (remember the Normans); two nationalities separated orginally only by a narrow channel and who have had considerable interaction with each other since Europe became civilized.

And yet those two groups, in comparison to the multitude of cultures in the U.S. have been unable to get along for the majority of the country's history and still maintain considerable enmity on some issues. The vast majority of your population is of European descent and the overwhelming majority of that is still from France or the British isles, and you still have trouble getting along. Explain that please, especially in light of your criticism of the U.S.

You can choose to participate or not participate in foreign conflicts and have been able to remain free from any concerns about foreign military intervention in your country in no small part because of the presence of a large and very powerful nation immediately to your south, with which you have a rock solid relationship. Who the hell is going to attack Canada when they know they will face the wrath of the U.S. in response?

You derive considerable benefit from your geographical location in terms of our culture and your extremely favored status as a trading partner, and face few of the pressures on the international front that we do.

And you feel free to sit up there with your one Vietnamese neighbor (I couldn't throw a rock from my house without risking hitting a Vietnamese or a Somalian) and judge us. Judge away, my friend; nobody here is going to stop you, but hold off on the frickin' fascist accusations and accompanying rhetoric. We've done a little too much on that front to deserve that one.

[pickled_heretic]

during the olympics, i watched a canadian man take a dump on the american flag

[astarothel]

I grew up more or less at the latitude of Montreal; we had no racial problems where I lived either. Of course we only had one race. The nearest black people at that time were about 100 miles due south and playing football for Vince Lombardi.

That's Quebec. Urban south western Ontario is a completely different ballgame.

[Xenephex]

That's Quebec. Urban south western Ontario is a completely different ballgame.
I said same latitude - I was referring to the upper peninsula of Michigan in the 1950's and 60's.

[astarothel]

I said same latitude - I was referring to the upper peninsula of Michigan in the 1950's and 60's.

My bad. Trying to forumwhore while exping my enchanter.

[Taxi]

Alongside, it should be noted, many Canadians, who fought as ably and in disproportionate numbers in both those wars. But, the history of the first of those wars (from Canada's perspective) highlights something about your country that ought to give you pause. Because as much criticism as can be rightfully laid at the feet of the U.S. in regards to our racial and ethnic difficulties, you still have to wonder at the long history of a country who really only ever had two significant ethnic groups.

Two groups who are as closely related as almost any pair of distinct countries (remember the Normans); two nationalities separated orginally only by a narrow channel and who have had considerable interaction with each other since Europe became civilized.

And yet those two groups, in comparison to the multitude of cultures in the U.S. have been unable to get along for the majority of the country's history and still maintain considerable enmity on some issues. The vast majority of your population is of European descent and the overwhelming majority of that is still from France or the British isles, and you still have trouble getting along. Explain that please, especially in light of your criticism of the U.S.

Its quite simple actually, the french canadians were Canada's version of black people, although we were not subjected to slavery like blacks were. Montreal in 2010 has lost most of its linguistic animosity where most people are like me, bilingual. Its mostly gone, with uncertainty about if Quebec will ultimately decide to stay within Canada or become sovereign.

Your question lies on a flawed premise, that why couldnt you guys get along? Well thats cause anglos used to tell us to "Speak white" (english) and treated us like shit and economic slaves for a long, long time, so it takes time to heal. I think this is one of the reasons why french canadians are noticeably less racists than some other places in North America, because we know how it is to be oppressed, even though we are "whites" by skin color.


You can choose to participate or not participate in foreign conflicts and have been able to remain free from any concerns about foreign military intervention in your country in no small part because of the presence of a large and very powerful nation immediately to your south, with which you have a rock solid relationship. Who the hell is going to attack Canada when they know they will face the wrath of the U.S. in response?

Well, we might now be attacked by terrorist groups because Harper is a little puppet of the US. You say it increases our national security, i say its detrimental to our national security because we are seen more and more as lackeys of the US. All these "gifts" from the US that people dont want. I dont want your fucking protection. If the russians invade (lol) ill pick up a gun and join a militia. Its like profiting and getting protection off a mafia boss, you could argue that there are advantages, but there are also consequences and it can spiral down quickly and blow up in your face.


And you feel free to sit up there with your one Vietnamese neighbor (I couldn't throw a rock from my house without risking hitting a Vietnamese or a Somalian) and judge us. Judge away, my friend; nobody here is going to stop you, but hold off on the frickin' fascist accusations and accompanying rhetoric. We've done a little too much on that front to deserve that one.

I worked in a school in Montreal in 1998, thats 12 years ago. We had 84 different nationalities of children at the school. 84. So yea "You canadians with your igloos and maple syrup and hockey rinks and hmmm your 2 nationalities" speel needs a little work on. The haitian community in Montreal alone has 100,000 people, with 3.5 million people living in Montreal. To compare, France, a country with 60 million people (With historical links to Haiti and partly responsible for the sad shape it is in, in 2010), has a community of 80,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Montreal

For the fascist part, its just history. The US has supported, armed, trained, supplied fascistic groups/regimes in the rest of the world alot since WW2.

Your country is also in the midst of a disturbing transformation (that is also radiating throughout the western world, another "gift") and its not a given that the US will stay a democratic country. I have been looking to confirm that it is now illegal in the US in 3 states to film police officers while they are on duty. I could give many examples of how the US's democracy is slowly getting flushed down the drain but its late and i dont think im up for it right now, i can elaborate tomorrow if you really want me to. And its not a surprise given the US support and spawning of fascistic regimes around the world for the last 60 years that the chickens are now coming home to roost, like Malcolm X said.

Heres a lecture by Naomi Wolf talking about the disturbing trends that are emerging in America that im referring to if you feel like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

[Xenephex]

Your question lies on a flawed premise, that why couldnt you guys get along? Well thats cause anglos used to tell us to "Speak white" (english) and treated us like shit and economic slaves for a long, long time, so it takes time to heal. I think this is one of the reasons why french canadians are noticeably less racists than some other places in North America, because we know how it is to be oppressed, even though we are "whites" by skin color.


So, you're saying that a majority of Canadians are racist (towards people of the same race), but not you or your group.

Gotcha.

[Xenephex]

Oh, and you toss out the Haitian population as if it's an example of your internationalism. Haitians speak French and it is a crappy place that generates a lot of refugees. Where are they gonna go? Cameroon? Switzerland? They're not an example - they are a relatively singular population in Canada for reasons of their language.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Thank you for your help identifying more of the things that we Americans need to look into and likely correct. It would be very helpful if we could count on Canada, one of our closest allies and trading partners, for support and guidance during these dark days. I am not at all surprised that an Austrian citizen, whose grandfather was likely a member of a thread-ending and thus unnamed fascist regime, hates America, but I am a bit surprised by the Canadians.

I stand by my original post.

[Taxi]

Oh, and you toss out the Haitian population as if it's an example of your internationalism. Haitians speak French and it is a crappy place that generates a lot of refugees. Where are they gonna go? Cameroon? Switzerland? They're not an example - they are a relatively singular population in Canada for reasons of their language.

Actually Haitians speak Creole, they have to learn french, a new language to them, although similar in the same way that french and spanish is similar. Only the professional class such as doctors and lawyers speaks french.

[Taxi]

And im not gonna fucking argue in here with you about if Montreal has one vietnamese guy or not lol... just fuckin google it. Montreal.

[mgellan]

On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that I am truly sorry.

I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron but it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all it's not like you actually elected him.

I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you, doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own.

I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey (again). In our defense I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much better than yours.

I'm sorry we burnt down your White House during the War of 1812. I notice you've rebuilt it! Very nice!

I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer but we feel your pain.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler and three years against the Kaiser, but that was different. Everyone knew they had weapons.

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this.

We've seen what you do to countries you get upset at.

Thank You.

(Just to lighten the mood - thanks to Canadian comedian Colin Mochrie for this :) )

[ryuut1]

Canada - everyone looks at you like a retarded little brother. i bet you fuckers fly down for our specialist healthcare providers when your state-run HMO's give you poopies for medication.

You suck.

America, fuck yah! +infinity, bitches!
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f23/Rbless/america.jpg

[pickled_heretic]

Actually Haitians speak Creole, they have to learn french, a new language to them, although similar in the same way that french and spanish is similar. Only the professional class such as doctors and lawyers speaks french.

Lol. creole isn't a language, it's a type of language. Hatian creole (the language) is based on French and French is one of Haiti's official languages.

[Taxi]

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler and three years against the Kaiser, but that was different. Everyone knew they had weapons.


http://static.pyzam.com/img/funnypics/0/nutshottj.jpg

[mgellan]

i bet you fuckers fly down for our specialist healthcare providers when your state-run HMO's give you poopies for medication.

* Canada's health care system is not state-run - it has a single payer public universal insurance system with care provided by independent contractors (physicians) using government funded facilities obligated to provide care at no cost to all Canadians.

*One of the largest classes of internet businesses in Canada is online pharmacies providing medication to Americans.

Just a couple of factoids in case you have enough brain cells remaining to assimilate them. Put the beer can down when you type and your capitalization will improve.

Regards,
Gord

[Taxi]

Lol. A creole isn't a language. Hatian creole (the language) is based on French and French is one of their official languages.

Yes, i meant they speak haitian creole, i thought it was obvious. I speak french and i can positively tell you that although being "based on french" its quite impenetrable to me, although ive been hearing it for 20something years. So its not like, emigrate to Canada, sit in school, start studying in french. Its really learning a new language. And although french is listed as the second official language of Haiti, that is only because the tiny economic elite of the country speaks it.

[pickled_heretic]

Yes, i meant they speak haitian creole, i thought it was obvious. I speak french and i can positively tell you that although being "based on french" its quite impenetrable to me, although ive been hearing it for 20something years. So its not like, emigrate to Canada, sit in school, start studying in french. Its really learning a new language.

But it's not, because French is one of Haiti's official languages. They receive their public education in French from what I understand.

[Taxi]

But it's not, because French is one of Haiti's official languages. They receive their public education in French from what I understand.

Most Haitians are poor, like dirt poor, they cannot afford to pay for books or even get their child to school. So its kind of like an american child who would learn french at the primary level, then drops school. Hes not gonna learn much from that.

Aristide wrote a book in 2000 that estimates that only 15% of the country speaks french.

And Alawen this was R&F material from post 1 lol.

[ryuut1]

* Canada's health care system is not state-run - it has a single payer public universal insurance system with care provided by independent contractors (physicians) using government funded facilities obligated to provide care at no cost to all Canadians.

*One of the largest classes of internet businesses in Canada is online pharmacies providing medication to Americans.

Just a couple of factoids in case you have enough brain cells remaining to assimilate them. Put the beer can down when you type and your capitalization will improve.

Regards,
Gord


Dear Gord:

Who cares, youre a fucking canadian. Noone likes you. Loser.
If you were American I mighta listened to what you had to say.
I've got a flag tatted on my left asscheek, kiss it you canuck fuck.

[wangerinlee]

As an American soldier thats fought in Iraq for 2 years I can say that president Obama is the 1st president that has made me concerned about the future of my country. Besides spending unthinkable amounts of money we dont have and shoving Reform that 58% of people are opposed to, He has now pretty much turned his back on Israel. Turning his back on Israel could easily be the most costly mistake this counrty has ever seen. I love America and will fight to the death for it, but I cant support a president that breaks ties with Israel. (And FYI im not Jewish or from Israel).

[ryuut1]

As an American soldier thats fought in Iraq for 2 years I can say that president Obama is the 1st president that has made me concerned about the future of my country. Besides spending unthinkable amounts of money we dont have and shoving Reform that 58% of people are opposed to, He has now pretty much turned his back on Israel. Turning his back on Israel could easily be the most costly mistake this counrty has ever seen. I love America and will fight to the death for it, but I cant support a president that breaks ties with Israel. (And FYI im not Jewish or from Israel).
As an American soldier who fought in Iraq during OIF3, fuck you and your views. Obama rocks.

[wangerinlee]

Im glad you can bring supporting facts on the great job he's done.

[ryuut1]

obviously our opinions clash, despite any facts.

so i skipped to the shit talkin, the good part!

btw- thanks for serving with me, and welcome home =)

[wangerinlee]

You obviously dont know any facts judging by all the posts you've made on this thread and your the one who started the "shit talk". You of all people should know the importance of our relationship with Israel being a military man. I wasn't trying to start a flame session just stating a fact.

[ryuut1]

youre in the military with skin that thin?

quit being a wuss, every post i've put up here has been in a joking and humorous manner.

and thicken up. obama has made my GI bill 3x better than it was. there's one fact for you.

<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

[Daywolf]

Besides spending unthinkable amounts of money we dont have
Gotta be goin somewhere...

http://www.jesseshunting.com/images/motivational_debt_star_obama.jpg
http://www.siiaonline.org/files/rockstar.obama.jpg
http://www.xmission.com/~psneeley/Personal/contact.gif
http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/obama_pimpdaddy-240x300.jpg

[wangerinlee]

How is asking you to provide supporting facts rather than an insult being thin skinned? I am more than capable of having a conversation about politics without getting mad or butt hurt. Anyway I love the post 9/11 G.I. Bill, got my degree with it and loved the entire process. But when it comes down to having a good president I look at a little more than what he has done for "ME". I'm sure your grandkids sons and daughters will be pleased to be paying for Obamas great ideas.

[mitic]

As an American soldier thats fought in Iraq for 2 years I can say that president Obama is the 1st president that has made me concerned about the future of my country. Besides spending unthinkable amounts of money we dont have and shoving Reform that 58% of people are opposed to, He has now pretty much turned his back on Israel. Turning his back on Israel could easily be the most costly mistake this counrty has ever seen. I love America and will fight to the death for it, but I cant support a president that breaks ties with Israel. (And FYI im not Jewish or from Israel).


less weapons sold
less oil for america

thats the costly mistake u are refering to, rite? ;)

[ryuut1]

you and i should move this to a different thread if you really want to discuss it all.

paying for obama's great ideas? they will be if they're successful.

at least they'll get a chance to know me, unlike the families paying for Bush's great ideas, like invasions.

[Taxi]

As an American soldier thats fought in Iraq for 2 years I can say that president Obama is the 1st president that has made me concerned about the future of my country. Besides spending unthinkable amounts of money we dont have and shoving Reform that 58% of people are opposed to, He has now pretty much turned his back on Israel. Turning his back on Israel could easily be the most costly mistake this counrty has ever seen. I love America and will fight to the death for it, but I cant support a president that breaks ties with Israel. (And FYI im not Jewish or from Israel).

lol break ties with Israel? Israeli army just shot and killed 9 civilian activists on a boat in international waters and the obama administration pushed for an investigation run by Israel. You tea partiers are really quite a mindjob. Thats another reason why i dont wanna live in the US, cuz you got all those alternate reality people armed to the teeth talking about being ready to die and shit.

[wangerinlee]

Israel is ruthless theres no doubt about it. Picture your counrty surrounded by hostiles that want nothing more than to wipe you off the map. Israel is pretty much the only reason all the rogue states arent armed with nuclear weapons. As far as Obama goes I could care less how much debt he creates, all I'm saying is turning his back on Israel is a bad idea, that will cost more lives in the long run.

[Taxi]

Israel is ruthless theres no doubt about it. Picture your counrty surrounded by hostiles that want nothing more than to wipe you off the map. Israel is pretty much the only reason all the rogue states arent armed with nuclear weapons. As far as Obama goes I could care less how much debt he creates, all I'm saying is turning his back on Israel is a bad idea, that will cost more lives in the long run.

Yea now picture yourself in 1930 with nazis being surrounded by jews on all sides. Fast forward 80 years and switch jew thugs for nazi thugs and palestinians for jews. Youre starting to get the picture.

[wangerinlee]

Hmm, if the Israeles wanted to take the entire middle East out is there really any doubt they coundnt do it? The fact that they give up land and take it back only after their attacked from it puts them on a completely different page as the Nazis. Israel isnt on a conquest to dominate the world, but protecting a tiny piece of land the Muslim world wants for themselves. Its easy to sit back and judge a country about its defensive actions when its not your back yard thats full of hostiles.

[Taxi]

Lebensraum mean anything to you?

We are in serious shit lol... Lots of peoples concept of reality is so fubared and this aint the time to be lost.

[wangerinlee]

The only thing Israel did wrong there is not send a massive ground force in to clean up all the stragglers the air raids didnt hit. Imagine if Canada decided to start shooting rockets accross the boarder into populated US towns. What do you think would happen?

Gah read your post wrong.....thought it said Lebanon

[Taxi]

The only thing Israel did wrong there is not send a massive ground force in to clean up all the stragglers the air raids didnt hit. Imagine if Canada decided to start shooting rockets accross the boarder into populated US towns. What do you think would happen?

Its border you ignorant scary robot.

[wangerinlee]

Lebensraum has nothing to do with anything Israel has done.

And sorry, I forgot spelling and grammer is more important than content of the conversation. I'll try to use more words like "fubared".

[Daywolf]

i dont wanna live in the US, cuz you got all those alternate reality people armed to the teeth talking about being ready to die and shit.
Hell yeah, born to die, buddy.

http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/450/u798_450.jpeg

Best to heed #3 :cool:

[wangerinlee]

Most of the people who bash America for the way we conduct our military operations are people that havent ever served in the military and probably couldnt even if they wanted to. And as far as Taxi not wanting to live in America i'm happy. We have enough spoiled worthless Americans here that have no pride in their country, we dont need more. Enjoy the Freedom that was HANDED to you cause you know you'll never have to earn it by looking down the sights of a rifle.

[astarothel]

The evolution of this thread is why the world can't have nice things.

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_86/1159416062popwfI.jpg

[mgellan]

Dear Gord:

Who cares, youre a fucking canadian. Noone likes you. Loser.
If you were American I mighta listened to what you had to say.
I've got a flag tatted on my left asscheek, kiss it you canuck fuck.

Thanks for letting us know we can ignore you! Ad hominem attacks are not the best way to argue, y'know? Don't know what that means? Here's try this:

http://tinyurl.com/ylc67sp

Regards,
Mg (Gord, whatever LOL)

[ryuut1]

rofl! you're alright, gord!

except for the canajun part.

[Excision Rottun]

Because as much criticism as can be rightfully laid at the feet of the U.S. in regards to our racial and ethnic difficulties, you still have to wonder at the long history of a country who really only ever had two significant ethnic groups.

Right....

Except we have significant communities of Sudanese, Somalian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Indian, Pakistani, (including both large Hindu and Sikh groups), Philippine, Lebanese, etc, etc

Do your research, then you can holla.

[Erasong]

You know america is a big place with political views all over the place. Its kind of wrong to lump all americans together when it seems most of the foreigners are against right wingers and/or tea baggers and not even all of them. Just extremists. The " you elected George Bush" thing is sort fo weak considering that his opponent, John Kerry, ran on a platform of "Hey look at me, im anything but George Bush" and won states with it. There was also the famed Florida Ballot. So in my eyes Im not even sure if we did elect G.W. again.

Point is every country has pro's and con's. Alawen started this thread as " We know we are flawed but we are trying to be better people" but instantly was attacked for being patriotic. Last I checked that wasnt a crime. USA =\= Nazi Germany. Nothing wrong with loving it, flawed as it might be. I said it in an earlier post. Its like a disfunctional family member, Its not 100% correct but you love them becuase they're family. Ill tell you what canadians, we will all move to canada and then you wont have to worry about american pride anymore ok? We'll all be in YOUR country.

[ryuut1]

Snap, erasong, snap.

but i'm not moving to canada, it's cold up there.

most of the country is inhabitable anyways

[Xenephex]

I'm sorry I ever posted in this thread. I do not have a problem with Canada or Canadians in particular, and most of what I posted I thought would be recognized as hyperbolic prose in response to what I considered unwarranted attacks. Too many extremely literal people.

I do have a problem with anyone in any other country making broad generalizations and employing perjorative terms like 'fascist' to attack my admittedly imperfect homeland, which seems to present a large, stationary target to anyone who is inclined that way.

-30-

[guineapig]

most of the country is inhabitable anyways

Quoted before edit! :p

Yes, it's actually quite a bit cleaner up in Canada.
I try to visit Toronto as often as I can. Awesome city, lots of fun!

[Taxi]

Point is every country has pro's and con's. Alawen started this thread as " We know we are flawed but we are trying to be better people" but instantly was attacked for being patriotic.

Actually what he said was that the USA was the greatest experiment in the history of the world. That poor american corporations (like Monsanto) are vilified while they make the world a better place. Thats it is a bright light of liberty and justice when it is the country that is single handedly responsible for most of the fascistic regimes that spawned in latin america for the last 50 years.

He said that the US stands accused of exploiting the worlds poor yet it is we who help more than any other to develop industry, education and democracy in the poorest countries. Actually if you look in latin america, its cuban doctors there and american military advisers. The US runs the IMF, which is responsible for exploiting the worlds poor, doing things in Africa like privatizing water and putting water meters.

If he said "I love america, i wish it was a better place" he wouldnt have attracted all that flak. It was really inflammatory on purpose to begin with, or naive and mis-informed to the point of ridicule, so either way... it was bound to attract this kind of reaction. Also im not saying some americans are not doing some good things around the world, its just please... with the Pravda style propaganda.

[PhelanKA]

People who misuse the word "fascist" are fascist.

And people who use the word "fascistic" are fascister.

[Taxi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

[Alawen Everywhere]

The most interesting thing to me in this thread is learning that European and Canadian gamers argue about things in an exceedingly polarizing and extremist manner, just as American gamers seem to. This mirrors the way our politicians and media personalities behave. I am now curious how much of the general population in the world responds to things this way.

[PhelanKA]

I am now curious how much of the general population in the world responds to things this way.

Most people don't give a rat's ass.

[Taxi]

The most interesting thing to me in this thread is learning that European and Canadian gamers argue about things in an exceedingly polarizing and extremist manner, just as American gamers seem to. This mirrors the way our politicians and media personalities behave. I am now curious how much of the general population in the world responds to things this way.

Thats funny considering your first post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

or?

[PhelanKA]

So does that make you a fish, Taxi?

If you were a fish what kind of fish would you want to be?

[Taxi]

So does that make you a fish, Taxi?

If you were a fish what kind of fish would you want to be?

a tropical fish.

http://www.tropicalfishspecies.co.uk/images/tropical%20fish%20group.jpg

Cuz i like color and warmth.

But lets not derail this thread.

Lets go back to america being the greatest country in the history of the universe and how american corporations are planning their next move, to feed the hungry on planet Yxmar, that orbits around Alpha Centauri.

[Toony]

Lets go back to america being the greatest country in the history of the universe and how american corporations are planning their next move, to feed the hungry on planet Yxmar, that orbits around Alpha Centauri.

Ok lets, the United States is the most charitable nation, by GDP and overall.

[Excision Rottun]

Also, I invented the moon.

[PhelanKA]

But lets not derail this thread.

Yes, because this topic hasn't been discussed ad nauseum by every pseudo-intellectual on the Internet thru every available medium since 1996.

http://bombmatt.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

[Taxi]

Yes, because this topic hasn't been discussed ad nauseum by every pseudo-intellectual on the Internet thru every available medium since 1996.

http://bombmatt.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

what topic, its just a big ole troll fest. And i like the term pseudo-intellectual, it leaves the guy doing the ad hominem subtly in a position to be able to judge who isnt an intellectual and who is. Like stfu, your stupid, im not. At least im not trying to hide im trolling since a couple of pages ago. Oh, and pseudo Frank Zappas rock amirite?

[Loke]

Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is I'm not. i honestly just feel that America is the best country and all the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called 'patriotism'.

...and if you disagree you can kiss my ass and suck my dick... everyone.

[Taxi]

Thats the america i like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSE_saVX_2A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDkhzHQO7jY

[Excision Rottun]

...and if you disagree you can kiss my ass and suck my dick... everyone.

I'm fuckin' in and you're fuckin' out!

[mgellan]

Ok lets, the United States is the most charitable nation, by GDP and overall.

"While exact figures are impossible to come by, the highest estimates from recent years put individual U.S. donations to overseas aid at 0.16 percent of national income, according to the Center for Global Development’s Steven Radelet. (More conservative estimates suggest that this number may actually be as low as 0.03 percent; an OECD estimate put the number at 0.06 percent.) Add the optimistic 0.16 percent estimate to the 0.16 percent of national income in government donations and you reach a combined 0.32 percent of national income—which is still less than the governmental aid alone of roughly half of the world’s wealthiest nations."

(retrieved from http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2676)

[Toony]

"While exact figures are impossible to come by, the highest estimates from recent years put individual U.S. donations to overseas aid at 0.16 percent of national income, according to the Center for Global Development’s Steven Radelet. (More conservative estimates suggest that this number may actually be as low as 0.03 percent; an OECD estimate put the number at 0.06 percent.) Add the optimistic 0.16 percent estimate to the 0.16 percent of national income in government donations and you reach a combined 0.32 percent of national income—which is still less than the governmental aid alone of roughly half of the world’s wealthiest nations."

(retrieved from http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2676)

2005 eh? Below from Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development 2006

1. United States - $22.739 billion
2. United Kingdom - $12.607 billion
3. Japan - $11.608 billion
4. France - $10.448 billion
5. Germany - $10.351 billion
6. Netherlands - $5.452 billion
7. Sweden - $3.962 billion
8. Spain - $3.801 billion
9. Canada - $3.731 billion
10. Italy - $3.672 billion


Or something as recent as 2007

1. United States, 1.67 percent of GDP
2. United Kingdom, 0.73
3. Canada, 0.72
4. Australia, 0.69
5. South Africa, 0.64
6. Ireland, 0.47
7. Netherlands, 0.45
8. Singapore, 0.29
9. New Zealand, 0.29
10. Turkey, 0.23

Sources: Charities Aid Foundation, Canadian Centre for Philanthropy

[Coalrymer]

While I would have liked to post back about the other soldiers. My time in Iraq was the worst waste of my life I can remember. I personally think any moron that thinks blowing himself up to hurt others. All the while thinking they will go to 30 virgins... How long do they stay virgins anyway.. or do they just keep spawning new ones? /cough sorry. I won't go into too much details, but I left there wounded, and nearly stranded when I got back to the US.

As for Obama, well, I won't judge until the end of his term.. and IF the changes actually help. I would like to shake his hand for making my life easier with that GI bill change. He was handed a shit platter and so far I'm only seeing spices added. But I'm glad he lowered taxes for the lower income and raised for the higher.

Bush however was a complete moron. He IS one of the reasons the oil spill in the gulf even happened. Helping loosen the regulations on oil companies... Oh yea he still owns one right... Acting like our nation was regressing economically, until nearly the very end. Handing it off to Obama to make it seem all a Democrats fault. Aside from that and making up words... still just looking at him gives me feeling I wanted to punch him. Even before any stupid remark. ALSO lower taxes for the rich, in hopes, it will trickle down to the poor... wow... just.. wow...

Last few coppers if anyone cares. Everyone is racist to some degree.
United States does NOT have a national language set. Majority speak English, but in their stupid arrogance they forget this fact. Somehow we bleed our influence on other nations, and make them speak English so they can make money. /cough money talks I guess...

Ok done ranting, commence flaming. :)

[Excision Rottun]

Or something as recent as 2007

1. United States, 1.67 percent of GDP

3. Canada, 0.72

Sources: Charities Aid Foundation, Canadian Centre for Philanthropy

Per capita we just blew you out of the water.

We donated aprox. 50% of what USA donated with 10% of the population.

[Toony]

Per capita we just blew you out of the water.

We donated aprox. 50% of what USA donated with 10% of the population.

Awesome! Congratulations to all ten of you!

[Taxi]

Theres a quote somewhere where Lawrence summers says something to a chamber of commerce conference that goes like "Dont worry guys, for every dollar in foreign aid we put, 1.30$ goes back to american corporations".

Im not 100% sure cuz i cant find the quote on the net, but its in a movie about the theft of public water resources by corporations called Blue gold. Maude Barlow is a rock solid source so i dont doubt the figure, its an extremely disturbing movie, i suggest to everyone to seek it out and watch it.

Well, its on youtube lol check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLp1ZnjsIXc

Watch it and now check out a map of where i live:

http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/auth/francais/maps/reference/provincesterritories/quebec/map.jpg

See all the "oil" deposits there? Thats why im worried.

[JaVeDK]

http://mdgs.un.org/unsd/mdg/SeriesDetail.aspx?srid=650

Net ODA (Official Development Assistance) to LDCs (Least Developed Countries) as percentage of OECD/DAC donors GNI (Gross National Income) ranking 2008:

1. Luxembourg 0,38
2. Norway 0,33
3. Denmark 0,32
4. Sweden 0,32
5. Ireland 0,30
6. Netherlands 0,23
7. Belgium 0,19
8. United Kingdom 0,16
9. Finland 0,15
10. Canada 0,13
11. France 0,11
12. Switzerland 0,11
13. Germany 0,10
14. Portugal 0,10
15. Spain 0,10
16. New Zealand 0,09
17. Austria 0,07
18. Italy 0,07
19. United States 0,06
20. Greece 0,04
21. Japan 0,05
22. Korea, Republic of 0,03

[Toony]

http://mdgs.un.org/unsd/mdg/SeriesDetail.aspx?srid=650

Net ODA (Official Development Assistance) to LDCs (Least Developed Countries) as percentage of OECD/DAC donors GNI (Gross National Income) ranking 2008:

1. Luxembourg 0,38
2. Norway 0,33
3. Denmark 0,32
4. Sweden 0,32
5. Ireland 0,30
6. Netherlands 0,23
7. Belgium 0,19
8. United Kingdom 0,16
9. Finland 0,15
10. Canada 0,13
11. France 0,11
12. Switzerland 0,11
13. Germany 0,10
14. Portugal 0,10
15. Spain 0,10
16. New Zealand 0,09
17. Austria 0,07
18. Italy 0,07
19. United States 0,06
20. Greece 0,04
21. Japan 0,05
22. Korea, Republic of 0,03

In 2009, the United States was the largest donor providing USD 28.7 billion in net ODA flows, representing an increase of 5.4% in real terms over 2008. Its ODA/GNI ratio rose from 0.19% in 2008 to 0.20% in 2009.

http://www.oecd.org/document/11/0,3343,en_21571361_44315115_44981579_1_1_1_1,00.ht ml

[JaVeDK]

The flaw with that statistic is, that it includes aid to countries like Isreal, which is not an "underdeveloped country" thus distorting the numbers. Aid like that is not a result of the altruistic goodwill of the USA, but merely a way to preserve own interests / protect investments.

Still if you sort and rank the numbers from http://webnet.oecd.org/oda2009/ by ODA/GNI the USA is still at the bottom with quite a difference in % to the top countries and far from the UN ODA target of 0.7% of GNI.

[Akame]

My country donates more than your country.

Nu uh! Well my country is more GREEN Than yours!

Get real! Mine has freedom of choice!

Well mine has real healthcare!

My country could totally beat up your country. Srsly, we have nukes.

.....

...

Bitch!

[Toony]

The flaw with that statistic is, that it includes military aid and aid to countries like Isreal, which is not an "underdeveloped country" thus distorting the numbers. Aid like that is not a result of the altruistic goodwill of the USA, but merely a way to preserve own interests / protect investments.

"Underdeveloped countries" like Haiti? http://www.unohrlls.org/en/ldc/related/62/

The United States leads all countries with its commitments of $713 million — with Canada, France, Spain, the United Kingdom, Japan and the European Union among other top donors.

Several of the counties on the underdeveloped list contain less than a million people, go ahead and run those countries through the same filter if you like.. it hardly paints an accurate picture.

And I'm sure the lives saved by the United States military aid would hardly describe that aid as a flaw.

[Toony]

My country donates more than your country.

Nu uh! Well my country is more GREEN Than yours!

Get real! Mine has freedom of choice!

Well mine has real healthcare!

My country could totally beat up your country. Srsly, we have nukes.

.....

...

Bitch!

I agree actually, it's a ridiculous argument, it was in response to an equally ridiculous premise.

[JaVeDK]

"Underdeveloped countries" like Haiti? http://www.unohrlls.org/en/ldc/related/62/

And I'm sure the lives saved by the United States military aid would hardly describe that aid as a flaw.

Or the lives lost due to this military "aid" (or meddling to serve own interests if you will) - the afghan war in the 80's anyone? Let's call that a tie, and that's being generous.

[Toony]

Or the lives lost due to this military "aid" (or meddling to serve own interests if you will) - the afghan war in the 80's anyone? Let's call that a tie, and that's being generous.

Oh, you want to have a different discussion now?

[Akame]

I agree actually, it's a ridiculous argument, it was in response to an equally ridiculous premise.

The bottom line Toony is there is nothing wrong with the OP's pride in his country, or his desire to want to see it become a better place than it is now. And to each his own in his decision on how to go about doing that.

Encourage one another in the things we choose to stand for and fight for, don't belittle them just because their battle is not one you would pick.

[JaVeDK]

My country donates more than your country.

Nu uh! Well my country is more GREEN Than yours!

Get real! Mine has freedom of choice!

Well mine has real healthcare!

My country could totally beat up your country. Srsly, we have nukes.

.....

...

Bitch!

I agree also, but then again this seems to be the underlying point with this whole thread. If you use statistics to serve your own point, expect to be called out on it if they are wrong or misleading.

[Akame]

I agree also, but then again this seems to be the underlying point with this whole thread. If you use statistics to serve your own point, expect to be called out on it if they are wrong or misleading.

http://www.tanyakhovanova.com/Jokes/xkcd/duty_calls.png

[Toony]

I agree also, but then again this seems to be the underlying point with this whole thread. If you use statistics to serve your own point, expect to be called out on it if they are wrong or misleading.

Misleading? That's having to dig down into aid spent to countries with less than a million people to somehow undermine the BILLIONS spent elsewhere.

Who's misleading again?

[JaVeDK]

Misleading? That's having to dig down into aid spent to countries with less than a million people to somehow undermine the BILLIONS spent elsewhere.

Who's misleading again?

Are you dense? The figures are nearly identical whether you sort by ODA to LDCs or not, the USA is still at the very bottom compared to the GNI. It makes no real difference other than illustrate a small possible flaw with the statistic in relation to the context it was being used.

[Taxi]

http://www.tanyakhovanova.com/Jokes/xkcd/duty_calls.png

I guess people will stop having discussions on the internet because of that picture lol

[Akame]

I guess people will stop having discussions on the internet because of that picture lol

I doubt it, but you got to admit it fits the scene quite nicely.

[Taxi]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cSnUkhOOngc/Rp_u3eDRwzI/AAAAAAAAAgs/XCmLRG58He0/s400/us-foreign-policy-flow-chart.gif

[Loke]

If this is going to turn into a 2nd grade school yard type argument, I'd just like to chime in that my country can beat up your country.

End. Of. Discussion.

[Taxi]

If this is going to turn into a 2nd grade school yard type argument, I'd just like to chime in that my country can beat up your country.

End. Of. Discussion.

The first post was a wrestling style USA! USA! USA! post, what do you expect? There was actually some interesting discussion in this thread, unlike what you just posted.

I. dont. care. about. when. you. think. discussions. should. end.

[Gorgetrapper]

The first post was a wrestling style USA! USA! USA! post, what do you expect? There was actually some interesting discussion in this thread, unlike what you just posted.

I. dont. care. about. when. you. think. discussions. should. end.

This coming from a Canadian, that's rich.

[Loke]

The first post was a wrestling style USA! USA! USA! post, what do you expect? There was actually some interesting discussion in this thread, unlike what you just posted.

I. dont. care. about. when. you. think. discussions. should. end.

Yea, because I wasn't being facetious or anything.:rolleyes:

[Excision Rottun]

http://monsterblog.lzsportsource.com/images/news/081906/usa2.jpg

[Taxi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYzJLzTZduk&feature=player_embedded#!

[Alawen Everywhere]

The first post was a wrestling style USA! USA! USA! post, what do you expect? There was actually some interesting discussion in this thread, unlike what you just posted.

I. dont. care. about. when. you. think. discussions. should. end.

You can feel free to disagree with me, but fuck you trying to reduce what I said to mindlessness. I am an extremely intelligent and thoughtful individual. If you want to correct me, that's fine. If you want to add your opinions and statistics, that's fine.

How dare you pretend that what I said can be reduced to a sports chant? I did not dismiss your ideas or arguments. How dare you presume to dismiss mine as if I'm subhuman and my thoughts are valueless? What kind of person are you? Do you exhibit this kind of megalomania and arrogance in real life or are you just a fucker on the internet?

Your response to anyone that disagrees with you is to attempt to discredit the source of the argument. Every single one of your attacks is ad hominem. You're a one trick pony and it's not interesting in the least.

Fuck you, asshole. Fuck off out of my thread.

[Excision Rottun]

Taxi wants you to get mad!

http://knicknacnook.com/beale.jpg

[Toony]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYzJLzTZduk&feature=player_embedded#!

lmao, god help any simpleton that takes videos like this at face value.

[Taxi]

You can feel free to disagree with me, but fuck you trying to reduce what I said to mindlessness. I am an extremely intelligent and thoughtful individual. If you want to correct me, that's fine. If you want to add your opinions and statistics, that's fine.

How dare you pretend that what I said can be reduced to a sports chant? I did not dismiss your ideas or arguments. How dare you presume to dismiss mine as if I'm subhuman and my thoughts are valueless? What kind of person are you? Do you exhibit this kind of megalomania and arrogance in real life or are you just a fucker on the internet?

Your response to anyone that disagrees with you is to attempt to discredit the source of the argument. Every single one of your attacks is ad hominem. You're a one trick pony and it's not interesting in the least.

Fuck you, asshole. Fuck off out of my thread.

"We are the bright light of liberty and justice. We continue to believe in the rule of law and the rights of man."

My first post was quoting all the vetoes of the US at the UN on such things as:

1982 Condemns apartheid and calls for the cessation of economic aid to South Africa. 4 resolutions.

1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.

it goes on and on like this till 2010, when someone is this far off reality, satire is often a good antidote. Im not saying youre a subhuman chill out, youre just way off the reality lane.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1074/carcrash2.jpg

No, youre on a rooftop not going anywhere soon. You need to go back to the road dude.

[Taxi]

Taxi wants you to get mad!

http://knicknacnook.com/beale.jpg

I do!

[Taxi]

lmao, god help any simpleton that takes videos like this at face value.

Right, how about this one? Its about american soldiers showering the town of fallujah with chemicals that burn the skin right to the bone, while they are ironically searching for weapons of mass destruction that dont exist:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8905191678365185391#

[Loke]

Right, how about this one? Its about american soldiers showering the town of fallujah with chemicals that burn the skin right to the bone, while they are ironically searching for weapons of mass destruction that dont exist:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8905191678365185391#

Taxi, you ever been in a War? If not, I'd suggest you don't judge the actions of those who have since you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[Taxi]

Taxi, you ever been in a War? If not, I'd suggest you don't judge the actions of those who have since you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

I havent, but the soldiers in the video have been, and these guys also:

http://www.ivaw.org/

"We were just following orders" didnt cut it in Nuremberg, you dont have to have been a soldier to know that, and every soldier should know that.

[Toony]

Right, how about this one? Its about american soldiers showering the town of fallujah with chemicals that burn the skin right to the bone, while they are ironically searching for weapons of mass destruction that dont exist:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8905191678365185391#

Question, when you watch the evening newscast do you miss the violins?

[Taxi]

Question, when you watch the evening newscast do you miss the violins?

See thats the america i hate. Cold, empty, mean people that are HOO-RAH more war because the killing isnt on their streets. See how the mask of what alawen is talking about falls off quickly. The mask of captain america.

[Taxi]

Im off for the weekend, enjoy this tom tomorrow cartoon!

http://www.thismodernworld.com/arc/2009/TMW2009-07-15colorlowres.jpg

[Toony]

See thats the america i hate. Cold, empty, mean people that are HOO-RAH more war because the killing isnt on their streets. See how the mask of what alawen is talking about falls off quickly.

Better before the edit imo, have a great weekend!

[yaaaflow]

Thank you for the constructive comment. I fixed the typo.

It comes as no surprise to me that there are many who seem to have given up on America. I wish I could inspire you to stand up and harness your anger to do something, anything. There are many things that we need to improve. It all starts by believing that things can be improved and that you, personally, have the power to help.

The disaster in the Gulf of Mexico has been a wake up call for me. If we do nothing, the world will be continue on this path of ignorance, corruption, abuse, war and destruction. We have the choice, right now, beginning today, to use our powers for good and not evil.

I will not be taking part in any more tit-for-tat squabbling. The world needs me for other things. The world needs you, too. Your country needs you and your grandchildren need you. We can make this world a better place, but only if we work together.

This is an inspiring post (and I'm not even American) but it's kinda vague though. What types of actions are you encouraging others to take? What actions have you taken yourself since having this epiphany? I'm no saint myself though I do some volunteer work, but I am always a bit put off by these posts that talk grandly about "The world needs us" without talking about actually taking action.

[Akame]

This is an inspiring post (and I'm not even American) but it's kinda vague though. What types of actions are you encouraging others to take? What actions have you taken yourself since having this epiphany? I'm no saint myself though I do some volunteer work, but I am always a bit put off by these posts that talk grandly about "The world needs us" without talking about actually taking action.

I'm currently changing careers so I can put my money where my mouth is and help people.

I think I'd fall under that "action" list.

[Alawen Everywhere]

"We are the bright light of liberty and justice. We continue to believe in the rule of law and the rights of man."

My first post was quoting all the vetoes of the US at the UN on such things as:

1982 Condemns apartheid and calls for the cessation of economic aid to South Africa. 4 resolutions.

1986 Calls on all governments (including the USA) to observe international law.

it goes on and on like this till 2010, when someone is this far off reality, satire is often a good antidote. Im not saying youre a subhuman chill out, youre just way off the reality lane.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1074/carcrash2.jpg

No, youre on a rooftop not going anywhere soon. You need to go back to the road dude.

Is there some particular part of fuck you and fuck off that you are just too goddamned dense to understand?

[astarothel]

Just in case people would like to claim Canada as being infallible:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100625/g20-security-perimeter-100625/20100625?hub=TorontoNewHome&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Toony]

Just in case people would like to claim Canada as being infallible:

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100625/g20-security-perimeter-100625/20100625?hub=TorontoNewHome&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Pay no attention to the massive abuse of civil liberties here, must get back to bashing the US!

[astarothel]

and I am a staunch Canadian federalist for the record, I just felt it necessary to say that every country pulls stupid shit.

The United States is by no means unique in this regard, it's economic and military strength simply permits it the potential to commit greater mistakes more often on both a national and international level than any other nation currently.

[Alawen Everywhere]

and I am a staunch Canadian federalist for the record, I just felt it necessary to say that every country pulls stupid shit.

The United States is by no means unique in this regard, it's economic and military strength simply permits it the potential to commit greater mistakes more often on both a national and international level than any other nation currently.

I completely agree with this. To balance that potential for abuse and neglect, I think it is essential for the United States and the rest of the world to hold us to a higher standard. I believe it is critical for the United States government to disclose every possible policy and procedure in order to enforce that higher standard and set an example for both our allies and adversaries.

[Alawen Everywhere]

This is an inspiring post (and I'm not even American) but it's kinda vague though. What types of actions are you encouraging others to take? What actions have you taken yourself since having this epiphany? I'm no saint myself though I do some volunteer work, but I am always a bit put off by these posts that talk grandly about "The world needs us" without talking about actually taking action.

I am not trying to take charge of or instruct anyone, but if anyone wants to talk about his or her particular talents and how they can be applied, I would be more than happy to offer my ideas and I'm sure others would as well.

The greatest gift I can provide on a volunteer basis is literacy. I live close to Oakland, California. If I can increase the knowledge and judgement of just one individual from a troubled area by teaching him or her to read and write to the point where he or she becomes an asset to the community instead of a liability, I will feel great pride and motivation to continue.

As a professional, I am an entrepreneur. Among my successful startups are a software company, three hardware companies and an internet service provider. I've been slacking for the last few years, but it's time for me to do everything I can to build another business, creating jobs and valuable services. I'm devoting my days to developing a business plan for my most ambitious project to date, with the goal of creating 16 local subsidiaries in the next 60 months, with employment for skilled workers and a business model that cannot be outsourced.

Each of us have unique skills, knowledge and talents. There are myriad possibilities for every one of us to contribute. Maybe the question to ask is less what can I do and more what CAN'T I do? It's time to step up.

[Loke]

Edit: Posted a big rant about stuff - but decided it's not worth it. Carry on with your argument.

[Xenephex]

Im off for the weekend,

Al Qaeda meeting?

[StinkyGreenBud]

Not your America MY America. I'm full blood mohawk and all you europeans did was steal,rape,kill and fuck this land up. Should of left it alone. To this day we still fight for the chunk of shit land you so "nicely" gave us. Bitches.

[Daywolf]

Not your America MY America. I'm full blood mohawk and all you europeans did was steal,rape,kill and fuck this land up. Should of left it alone. To this day we still fight for the chunk of shit land you so "nicely" gave us. Bitches.
And what would have the native americans done if the europeans (and others) didn't show up? Kill each other off? Two way street. Half my family is native american (not me), they don't complain. I know some peoples views are obscure though, gives em' something to bitch 'bout.

[Gorgetrapper]

Not your America MY America. I'm full blood mohawk and all you europeans did was steal,rape,kill and fuck this land up. Should of left it alone. To this day we still fight for the chunk of shit land you so "nicely" gave us. Bitches.

Quit your bitching. Because of all that, you're now pretty much "protected people" who have a shit load of fucking benefits now. Go to college for free? Sure why the fuck not! Why? Because you were born that way.

[Daywolf]

Quit your bitching. Because of all that, you're now pretty much "protected people" who have a shit load of fucking benefits now. Go to college for free? Sure why the fuck not! Why? Because you were born that way.Yeah, and they get government health care... though funding runs out by June every year. Hey well something for the rest of us to look forward to lol

[StinkyGreenBud]

And what would have the native americans done if the europeans (and others) didn't show up? Kill each other off? Two way street. Half my family is native american (not me), they don't complain. I know some peoples views are obscure though, gives em' something to bitch 'bout.

Kill each other off? I highly doubt that man. You even know anything about the cultures of native americans?

[StinkyGreenBud]

Quit your bitching. Because of all that, you're now pretty much "protected people" who have a shit load of fucking benefits now. Go to college for free? Sure why the fuck not! Why? Because you were born that way.



Protected? After whiping out 80% of us first and our shit lands are not well protected. Contractors and shit are always trying to find a way to build some bullshit on them. Also don't know where you are getting your facts from but the US government does not give us 1 penny in benefits. You "whites" and your ego's. Think you helped us out in the long run. Fuck you.

[Neno]

Protected? After whiping out 80% of us first and our shit lands are not well protected. Contractors and shit are always trying to find a way to build some bullshit on them. Also don't know where you are getting your facts from but the US government does not give us 1 penny in benefits. You "whites" and your ego's. Think you helped us out in the long run. Fuck you.

If I throw something on the ground will a tear roll down your cheek?

[Daywolf]

Kill each other off? I highly doubt that man. You even know anything about the cultures of native americans?
lol after reading your past few posts, now I know you are BSing for kicks :D
You are quite possibly one of those brat college kids with deep resentment for his Europe born immigrant father. So you took up a little conservation and ethnic diversity indoctrination in your liberal public college and now practicing for the day when you can key SUV's, paint fur red and work for the government counting "endangered" mice. Mohawk? Most likely a Night Elf Mohawk. But funny, man, real funny lol

[Gorgetrapper]

Protected? After whiping out 80% of us first and our shit lands are not well protected. Contractors and shit are always trying to find a way to build some bullshit on them. Also don't know where you are getting your facts from but the US government does not give us 1 penny in benefits. You "whites" and your ego's. Think you helped us out in the long run. Fuck you.

Funny.

You act like this happened to YOU specifically. If you really wanted something to change, you wouldn't hold on to your outdated buffalo runs and fucking moved on in the world. Stop crying over spilled milk and fucking doing something.

[quido]

I'm afraid of Americans.

[Hasbinbad]

"We were just following orders" didnt cut it in Nuremberg, you dont have to have been a soldier to know that, and every soldier should know that.
Brilliant.

[Hasbinbad]

In MY America, 37% of Americans cannot locate America on a world map.
In MY America, Coach, Versace, and Louis Vuitton mean more to the majority of people than Chomsky, Orwell, and Aldous Huxley.
In MY America, my brother cannot get the surgery he needs because he doesn't have health insurance.
In MY America, more is spent on killing foreign civilians than on feeding, clothing, schooling, transporting, and keeping healthy domestic civilians combined.
In MY America, people actually think we have a democracy.
In MY America, it is possible for corporations to do hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars of damage to the environment of the people and wildlife of this and other countries, yet only be liable for $75 million.
In MY America, you are a number, with an assigned value; if the negative value incurred by letting you die is more than the negative value of a lawsuit brought up at your behest, you die, sucker.
In MY America, people think socialized means evil.
In MY America, shell games aren't really a joke anymore.

I dunno what the fuck country you "patriots" belong to, but it's not MY America. Get the fuck out. We, the ruling class and corporations of America have absolutely no need for you or your "thoughts." Be sure to visit the gift shop on your way out.

Kthxbyela~

[ShadowWulf]

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs498.snc3/27210_104681949565163_100000700761364_93178_124751 9_n.jpg

You didn't get mad when the Supreme Court stopped a legal recount and
appointed a President.

You didn't get mad when Cheney allowed Energy company officials to dictate energy policy.

You didn't get mad when a covert CIA operative got outed.

You didn't get mad when the Pentagon misplaced $2.3 trillion.

You didn't get mad when the Patriot Act got passed.

You didn't get mad when we illegally invaded a country that
posed no threat to us.

You didn't get mad when we spent over 600 billion(and counting) on said illegal war.

You didn't get mad when over 10 billion dollars just disappeared in Iraq.

You didn't get mad when you saw the Abu Grahib photos.

You didn't get mad when you found out we were torturing people.

You didn't get mad when the government was illegally wiretapping Americans.

You didn't get mad when we didn't catch Bin Laden.

You didn't get mad when you saw the horrible conditions at Walter Reed.

You didn't get mad when we let a major US city drown.

You didn't get mad when the deficit hit the trillion dollar mark.

You didn't get mad when the debt went up $5 trillion under Bush.

You finally got mad when.. when... wait for it... when the government decided that people in America deserved the right to see a
doctor if they are sick.
Yes, illegal wars, lies, corruption, torture,
stealing your tax dollars to make the rich richer, are all ok with you
but helping other Americans... well fuck that

Yes, im a democratic socialist. Right now, the powers that be, and most of all those who defend and enable them, can go fuck themselves.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs319.snc3/28601_123782497655108_100000700761364_167903_54367 77_n.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

Shadow, hav mai babbiez.

[nicemace]

well new zealand smashes all you fools.

[Taxi]

Back from my Al Quaeda meeting. (its a joke if that wasnt obvious, please dont send me to the legal twilight zone in an orange jumpsuit)

Well Toronto just spent 1.2 BILLION dollars into policing the g-20 summit. In comparison London spent 30 million on its g-20 summit last year. Im glad we have a great country (sorry, the best) to look up to when it comes to repressing our citizens. It seems Harper is well on his way to out-american the US.

[astarothel]

1.2 billion dollars, and they still weren't able to keep the black bloc under control. Pretty big embarrassment if you ask me. They even knew what to expect from those groups with their year long 'infiltration', but still couldn't have spent one day to investigate into how police groups in continental Europe have successfully dealt with bb management and suppression.

[Taxi]

1.2 billion dollars, and they still weren't able to keep the black bloc under control. Pretty big embarrassment if you ask me.

Ive been to protests since 1998. Heres how the routine goes:

--- THE PLAN ---

Cops use people who break property as an excuse to beat up, arrest, harass everyone else. Corporate media takes pictures of said broken stuff and makes sensational headlines about why protesters are bad.

--- END OF PLAN ---

When you start from there, its not a failure or embarassement, its the plan. They need part of the people at demos to break stuff, so their repression is justified.

And when theres no people that break stuff, well, you just have to dress cops as protesters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St1-WTc1kow

Theres a history of agent provocateurs in Canada and the US, i never take it for granted that these black bloc protesters are actually protesters.

[astarothel]

nah, there was no great master plan on the part of the city or the police.

Given that I have seen some of the bb memorandums, notes, and the like passed around university campuses starting near the end of last semester for g20 (U of G for the record, one of the four supposed 'ringleaders' [double lol] originates from there) and even heard about them less than subtly from several sympathetic university protest groups, I am fairly certain there was no setup. They simply adopted a highly disruptive and effective plan (black bloc) to do it.

[Taxi]

nah, there was no great master plan on the part of the city or the police.

Given that I have seen some of the bb memorandums, notes, and the like passed around university campuses starting near the end of last semester for g20 (U of G for the record, one of the four supposed 'ringleaders' [double lol] originates from there) and even heard about them less than subtly from several sympathetic university protest groups, I am fairly certain there was no setup. They simply adopted a highly disruptive and effective plan (black bloc) to do it.

Im not saying no protesters ever break stuff, im saying its presented as an excuse as to why police have to act the way they do.

Im not talking about some big top secret documents ive looked at, ive attended more than 100 protests over the course of 12 years. Its an observation. It always works the same.

A few people break stuff, cops beat up everyone and break up the protest, and images are run at 6pm in the news to justify the police state.

Heres a good article on what happened in Toronto this weekend:

http://toronto.mediacoop.ca/story/erosion-rights-quick-descent/3886

It comes back to what i was saying earlier, the US has been at the forefront of the support for fascist-like regimes in the world for 60 years, and now the chickens are coming home to roost. The western world better wake the fuck up or its byebye constitution/canadian charter of rights and freedoms and their similar counterparts.

If people arent profoundly disturbed by videos such as this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7OA920pbv8&feature=player_embedded#! they deserve whats coming next.

[Alawen Everywhere]

So our latest crime is that we didn't set a good example for our dim-witted little brother?

Thanks for making sure everyone realizes that your brain doesn't work very well.

[astarothel]

So our latest crime is that we didn't set a good example for our dim-witted little brother?

In correlation to a previous post you could say America didn't set a good example for the rest of the world at large.

Likening Canada to being America's dim-witted little brother isn't going to help you win any arguments. That's the pot calling the kettle black, when America exhibits massive signs of derp too. It's Three Stooges at best, and America just likes to think it's Moe all the time.

[Toony]

I'm afraid of Americans.

Perhaps you should be just as afraid of canadians

http://cms.mumbaimirror.com/portalfiles/1/4/201006/Image/280610/w123.jpg

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00729/protest-06_jpg_729386gm-a.jpg

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00729/protest-09_jpg_729389gm-b.jpg

[Akame]

Perhaps you should be just as afraid of canadians

http://cms.mumbaimirror.com/portalfiles/1/4/201006/Image/280610/w123.jpg

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00729/protest-06_jpg_729386gm-a.jpg

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00729/protest-09_jpg_729389gm-b.jpg

Taxi's weekend party?

[Taxi]

Journalist Amy Goodman spent the weekend in Toronto. Seems like this is to be the new model for large protests. (Shadow laws passed at 5 to midnite that gives temporary powers to police to arrest people for any reason. Soon temporary will become permanent if people dont wake up)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

http://www.democracynow.org/

[Alawen Everywhere]

In correlation to a previous post you could say America didn't set a good example for the rest of the world at large.

Likening Canada to being America's dim-witted little brother isn't going to help you win any arguments. That's the pot calling the kettle black, when America exhibits massive signs of derp too. It's Three Stooges at best, and America just likes to think it's Moe all the time.

Perhaps it was lost that I am not the one blaming America for Canada's troubles. I think Canada is a big boy and responsible for its own problems. I think it has been pointed out several times that America has plenty of troubles of our own.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Why are people standing around watching willful destruction of private property? I would have felt obligated as a concerned citizen to stop that senseless violence.

[Toony]

Why are people standing around watching willful destruction of private property? I would have felt obligated as a concerned citizen to stop that senseless violence.

Cowards watching bigger (masked) cowards.

[Extunarian]

I do have trouble believing that those people dressed in all black and covering their faces were really there to protest peacefully. Perhaps if these people didn't need to break windows to get their rocks off than the temporary laws that Taxi speaks of wouldn't have been necessary.

[astarothel]

Perhaps it was lost that I am not the one blaming America for Canada's troubles. I think Canada is a big boy and responsible for its own problems. I think it has been pointed out several times that America has plenty of troubles of our own.

Not on me, however the need to belittle Canada by referring to it as a dim-witted little brother to America when the entire international family tree has the collective intelligence of a plethora of monkeys armed with machetes came off hypocritical to me, hence my response.

[astarothel]

Why are people standing around watching willful destruction of private property? I would have felt obligated as a concerned citizen to stop that senseless violence.

Many did try and stop it. A number of concerned citizens were injured attempting to stop those that stepped out of the black bloc formation to permit acts of vandalism.

From an enforcement perspective it is easier to control the damages than it is to police potentially violent opposing factions. You have to limit your variables.

The other issue with citizens stopping it is the technique of black bloc itself. In black bloc you get out of the black and back into your streetclothes in the mob so it is impossible to distinguish individuals. This makes it almost impossible for law officials to distinguish concerned citizens from plainclothes black bloc members. Black bloc uses this technique to protect their own members, while endangering every day civilians that attempt to stop them.

As soon as a civilian is injured for being anywhere near the black bloc, private presses roar over police brutality. I'm sorry, involvement in a mob situation, either to attempt to stop it or abet it, carries risks. The police can't tell the difference between someone that tries to stop black bloc, or assist it.

What I can tell you is that law enforcement officials didn't look at how to break black bloc up ahead of time. If they had their response could have been much more effective.

[Taxi]

What I can tell you is that law enforcement officials didn't look at how to break black bloc up ahead of time. If they had their response could have been much more effective.

Its not like they need a manual for it. There was so much manpower and brutality available that a few hundreds people dressed in black is nowhere near a threat. Why did the police let them trash up the place? Like i said before, its the same pattern every time. They let people smash stuff up (wether they are protesters or police undercovers) and then they move in and arrest, beat up, disperse everyone else.

I dont subscribe to that view that police were incompetent. They were competent, they did what they were there for. Justify their 1 billion dollar tag price and intimidate, beat up, harass, arrest legitimate protesters and journalists.

People often think this is just radical protester bullshit. I did too until i saw cops intentionally hurt people with crazed smile on their faces, run after random pedestrian on horses and attempting to baton them on the head, people sitting down getting their glasses crushed on their faces. In Quebec city in 2001 at the summit of the americas, the neighboorhood was so drenched in CS gas that an old lady died in her appartement suffocating.

We are losing our democratic rights in general in the western world. The politicians are pushing in more and more anti-democratic laws in the name of combating "terrorism". If that doesnt sound familiar, it should because its how the nazis came to power. Again it sounds funny, look at that crazy person, talking about nazis. But the things ive witnessed personally in the last 10 years makes me very afraid that if we dont fight for our democratic rights very soon, we will enter a dark age of police states in the western world that will end who knows when. The elites have been doing it to natives, to the rest of the world for centuries, now its us, their own population. We are the enemy.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Not on me, however the need to belittle Canada by referring to it as a dim-witted little brother to America when the entire international family tree has the collective intelligence of a plethora of monkeys armed with machetes came off hypocritical to me, hence my response.

My comment was completely sarcastic. I've already mentioned in this thread several Canadian policies and practices that I admire and that America could do well by incorporating into our own society. In no way were any of my comments meant to disparage any other nation.

I initiated this thread to address America's problems and challenges as well as our strengths and hopes.

[Extunarian]

So it's okay to vandalize property, start things on fire, and put the safety of peaceful protesters at risk because there were only a few hundred of them and they were outnumbered by police?

I'm not as worried about your vast one-world-totalitarian-nazi-government conspiracy as I am about this type of thinking:

"A group of anarchists broke away from the main, non-violent protest by trade unions and other groups around the summit conference centre and began smashing the windows of banks and chain stores and torching police patrol cars in the shopping and financial districts...Footage from the Canadian broadcaster CTV also showed them looting, and threatening photographers."

"This isn't violence," one masked protester told the Toronto Star newspaper. "This is vandalism against violent corporations. We did not hurt anybody. The corporations are the ones hurting people."

Now that is some rationalization right there.

[Taxi]

So it's okay to vandalize property, start things on fire, and put the safety of peaceful protesters at risk because there were only a few hundred of them and they were outnumbered by police?

I'm not as worried about your vast one-world-totalitarian-nazi-government conspiracy as I am about this type of thinking:

"A group of anarchists broke away from the main, non-violent protest by trade unions and other groups around the summit conference centre and began smashing the windows of banks and chain stores and torching police patrol cars in the shopping and financial districts...Footage from the Canadian broadcaster CTV also showed them looting, and threatening photographers."

"This isn't violence," one masked protester told the Toronto Star newspaper. "This is vandalism against violent corporations. We did not hurt anybody. The corporations are the ones hurting people."

Now that is some rationalization right there.

Its not a conspiracy, its what you can deduct from attending just one of those world-class protests. If youre not just trying to "win" here, and youre truly interested in finding out what goes on, just go to one. All it takes is one direct observation on how cops behave during these protests.

Heres one quote i found about how police are justifying all this repression:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/g8-g20/news/g20-related-detentions-biggest-mass-arrests-in-canadian-history/article1621198/

“Unfortunately, their criminal activity was made a lot easier by the complicity of the crowd,” he told CP24. “And so we had to contain and control the crowd in an effort to control those criminals.”

This is the exact same logic that US soldiers have been fed in Iraq, that anyone around someone firing on US troops is a fair target because they are "letting" them shoot on US soldiers.

So now every protester needs to be "controlled" (beaten up, penned, arrested and released without charges, intimidated) because they are "complicit" in the criminal activity.

Im not going to cry over a starbucks windows getting smashed, but i think its counter-productive to what these protesters who are using black block tactic are probably trying to accomplish. When they arent undercover cops accomplishing just what they set out for.

That being said, using this as an excuse for all the fascistic behavior you can be witness to if you go to one of these protests, is whats really criminal.

[Hasbinbad]

..boy you guys are gonna shit bricks when you find out the CIA is behind black bloc..

[astarothel]

They let people smash stuff up (wether they are protesters or police undercovers) and then they move in and arrest, beat up, disperse everyone else.

So I guess they should just let them vandalize property and do nothing, right?
Everything warrants a response. Proactively disperse a crowd when it is on the border of violence, and you will get people calling you for infringing their rights, that is just how it goes.

Quebec city in 2001 at the summit of the americas

I was at that for the record. I just happened to be at a more peaceful section when the gas cannisters dropped elsewhere, at places where numerous groups were throwing rocks, and resisting arrest.

For every account of police brutality there, there was an equally matched account of protester violence. If you're gonna be around the protestors that throw bricks at the riot shields, expect to eat the dirt, its eye for an eye.


“Unfortunately, their criminal activity was made a lot easier by the complicity of the crowd,” he told CP24. “And so we had to contain and control the crowd in an effort to control those criminals.”

Referring specifically to the actions of black bloc, this is a very real and accurate statement.

[Taxi]

So I guess they should just let them vandalize property and do nothing, right?
Everything warrants a response. Proactively disperse a crowd when it is on the border of violence, and you will get people calling you for infringing their rights, that is just how it goes.

Who was suggesting the should let them vandalize property? Certainly not me, im not sure why youre asking me this question. Ive been trying to make the point that cops DONT stop certain protesters (or undercover cops) from breaking stuff because its the excuse they need to close protests down and how they justify their violence and repression.


I was at that for the record. I just happened to be at a more peaceful section when the gas cannisters dropped elsewhere, at places where numerous groups were throwing rocks, and resisting arrest.

I highly doubt you were there. The St-roch neighboorhood was drenched in CS gas. We knew we were approaching the fence 10 blocks away, when we started getting itchy eyes and smelling pepper spray in the air. If you were there, youd know the extent to which the gas was used. It is laughable to say that you could have evaded the gas if you werent standing next to people throwing rocks. Its just flat out false.

At 1:30 in this video you can see what im talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiSg2F5D1iA&feature=related

You dont evade a huge toxic could like that from not being close to people who throw rocks, unless you wanna protest at some other part of the city where the people you are protesting against arent. The locals (look at the footage, theres people living in those buildings) were so angered to be drenched in gas like that that some of them opened up their windows and started giving water to people by the bucket to clear eyes and drink.

[Gorgetrapper]

CS gas, that shit is laughable now after having been hit multiple times by the cs grenades.

[Taxi]

CS gas, that shit is laughable now after having been hit multiple times by the cs grenades.

Meaning what? CS gas is a military grade tear gas. Ive seen a 6 foot 4 guy vomiting violently from inhaling it. Ive been caught in a cloud and you panic because your lungs just stop breathing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

[astarothel]

I highly doubt you were there. The St-roch neighboorhood was drenched in CS gas. We knew we were approaching the fence 10 blocks away, when we started getting itchy eyes and smelling pepper spray in the air. If you were there, youd know the extent to which the gas was used. It is laughable to say that you could have evaded the gas if you werent standing next to people throwing rocks. Its just flat out false.

I was at the summit protests, but not consistently near the security perimeter -- I saw the road that was going down pretty fast. People at flashpoints had been asked to disperse an hour before the gas really started flying. "Please leave the area or we will be forced to use methods to make you disperse" is pretty straightforward to me. Here's how a short conversation with someone I met on the bus ride there went. (his name was Matt or some shit I think)

"So they told you all to leave or they'd gas you?"
"Told us twice actually"
"And you stayed after they said this why?"
"We didn't think they'd actually do it."
"People all around you were throwing shit at the fucking fence. What did you expect?"

[Taxi]

I was at the summit protests, but not consistently near the security perimeter -- I saw the road that was going down pretty fast. People at flashpoints had been asked to disperse an hour before the gas really started flying. "Please leave the area or we will be forced to use methods to make you disperse" is pretty straightforward to me. Here's how a short conversation with someone I met on the bus ride there went. (his name was Matt or some shit I think)

"So they told you all to leave or they'd gas you?"
"Told us twice actually"
"And you stayed after they said this why?"
"We didn't think they'd actually do it."
"People all around you were throwing shit at the fucking fence. What did you expect?"

LOL thats so funny, you trying to convey the summit of the americas in one sound bite that says cops warned people they would be gassed. Again, if you would have been there, you would know why im laughing, because its so absurd. So where do you come from? Are you a young conservative, whats your angle on trying to portray things this way? Come on just for my reading pleasure, its just some little EQemu forum, not alot of people will read it. Because fuck me if im going to beleive you came from Ontario or the US to protest and you just packed your shit up once the police started shitting on the Canadian charter of rights and freedom.

[astarothel]

So where do you come from? Are you a young conservative, whats your angle on trying to portray things this way? Come on just for my reading pleasure, its just some little EQemu forum, not alot of people will read it. Because fuck me if im going to beleive you came from Ontario or the US to protest and you just packed your shit up once the police started shitting on the Canadian charter of rights and freedom.

I am a social democrat living in Ontario. Would that Ed Broadbent were willing to run again, the party has lost its way.

I am a staunch pacifist.

I have taken more than one week long course in high pressure conflict management and resolution, and will probably take one or two more before I die.
I opted against taking the LSAT over several aspects of the Canadian legal system I personally find disturbing and appalling that violate my code of personal ethics.

I have no angle to portray, other than one using my own experiences that are in contrast to your own.

I went to QC with the intent to peacefully protest, in addition to helping provide emergency first aid and medical assistance since I had my certs at the time.

I spent 2 days and a night trying to track down where some of the more involved and aggressive protestors that I arrived with got sent to (not an easy task for an Anglophone who only took french up to grade nine, when every quebecois is yelling in their own tongue).

I did not just pack my shit up once the police began "shitting on the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms", I got the "joy" of seeing both civilian and protester hurt, and it certainly wasn't all from the police you'd like to set up as being the inevitable relentless aggressor.

Feel free to try and paint me as a coward simply because I don't agree with violent protest over these summits. I am sure you would like that.

Feel free to tell me who I am and who I should be since you seem to think you know everything about everyone.

You know me so well!

va te crosser

[Taxi]

I am a social democrat living in Ontario. Would that Ed Broadbent were willing to run again, the party has lost its way.

I am a staunch pacifist.

I have taken more than one week long course in high pressure conflict management and resolution, and will probably take one or two more before I die.
I opted against taking the LSAT over several aspects of the Canadian legal system I personally find disturbing and appalling that violate my code of personal ethics.

I have no angle to portray, other than one using my own experiences that are in contrast to your own.

I went to QC with the intent to peacefully protest, in addition to helping provide emergency first aid and medical assistance since I had my certs at the time.

I spent 2 days and a night trying to track down where some of the more involved and aggressive protestors that I arrived with got sent to (not an easy task for an Anglophone who only took french up to grade nine, when every quebecois is yelling in their own tongue).

I did not just pack my shit up once the police began "shitting on the Canadian charter of rights and freedoms", I got the "joy" of seeing both civilian and protester hurt, and it certainly wasn't all from the police you'd like to set up as being the inevitable relentless aggressor.

Feel free to try and paint me as a coward simply because I don't agree with violent protest over these summits. I am sure you would like that.

Feel free to tell me who I am and who I should be since you seem to think you know everything about everyone.

You know me so well!

va te crosser

I wasnt saying you were a coward, i was doubting you ever went to the summit of the americas. Cause you spoke like if people were hit by gas it must be because they must have been close to the rock throwers, when everyone that was there knows that the whole neighboorhood of St-Roch was smothered in a cloud of CS gas. It really sounded like you saw a cop throw a canister of gas at a protester on TV and you made up a story about how you could dodge the gas by not being close to the guy it was aimed at.

Thats what it looked like, which made me doubt you were there:

http://www.elainebriere.ca/struggle/images/003_strug.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/86781184_d89e6307ef.jpg?v=0

[ShadowWulf]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs319.snc3/28601_123777780988913_100000700761364_167803_35099 87_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs329.ash1/28601_123782517655106_100000700761364_167905_86221 5_n.jpg

What was I doing?
Oh, nothing much. While the earthly gods and rulers
fought each other in battles cruel and fierce
and mercilessly razed all that my hands
have lovingly put up,... See More
I went on building, carving, molding, forging...

[Xenephex]

From the song by Phil Ochs:

Where were you in Chicago?
You know I didn't see you there.
I didn't see them break your head,
or breathe the tear gas air.
Oh where were you in Chicago,
when the fight was being fought?
Where were you in Chicago,
'cause I was in Detroit.

----

Chicago, Democratic National Convention 1968 is still the gold standard for police brutality in the lifetime of anyone on these boards (on this continent at least). You can go to various riots during the same decade for honorable mention.

If you want to get into a pissing contest about protests, best not to do it around anyone from my generation. Oh, and I wasn't in Chicago - I got there about a week later. In a rather incredible coincidence, I was just outside Detroit.

Taxi, you are just never wrong about anything are you? I can only be grateful that I will never have to get stuck in an actual conversation with you.

[Taxi]

Taxi, you are just never wrong about anything are you? I can only be grateful that I will never have to get stuck in an actual conversation with you.

Of course im wrong sometimes, i tend to stick to talking about stuff i know though, so i dont look like Alawen with Lollerskates on going by whoosh whoosh like AMERICA!! BEST FUCKING THING SINCE THE EARTH COOLED DOWN AND LIFE APPEARED ON THIS PLANET!! ITS GOT ELECTROLYTES!!

[Gorgetrapper]

Meaning what? CS gas is a military grade tear gas. Ive seen a 6 foot 4 guy vomiting violently from inhaling it. Ive been caught in a cloud and you panic because your lungs just stop breathing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

Yeah, after being hit by it multiple times, it's laughable as I said earlier. Just because someone is 6 foot 4 means NOTHING, height means NOTHING. The guy apparently was a little bitch.

[Hasbinbad]

Yes Taxi, but WHY do plants crave electrolytes?!?

[ShadowWulf]

Yeah, after being hit by it multiple times, it's laughable as I said earlier. Just because someone is 6 foot 4 means NOTHING, height means NOTHING. The guy apparently was a little bitch.

I have been gassed. And apparently you linked an article you didn't read.

Although described as a non-lethal weapon for crowd control, many studies have raised doubts about this classification. As well as creating severe pulmonary damage, CS can also significantly damage the heart and liver

On September 28, 2000, Prof. Dr. Uwe Heinrich released a study commissioned by John C. Danforth, of the United States Office of Special Counsel, to investigate the use of CS by the FBI at the Branch Davidians' Mount Carmel compound. He concluded that the lethality of CS used would have been determined mainly by two factors: whether gas masks were used and whether the occupants were trapped in a room. He suggests that if no gas masks were used and the occupants were trapped, then, "...there is a distinct possibility that this kind of CS exposure can significantly contribute to or even cause lethal effects."

Many reports have associated CS exposure with miscarriages. This is consistent with its reported clastogenic effect (abnormal chromosome change) on mammalian cells.

When CS is metabolized, cyanide can be detected in human tissue. According to the United States Army Center for Health Promotion and Preventive Medicine, CS emits "very toxic fumes" when heated to decomposition, and at specified concentrations CS gas is an immediate danger to life and health. They also state that those exposed to CS gas should seek medical attention immediately."

With exposure, or proper precautions you can continue to operate in CS gas but that is not its intent, and depending on exposure it not only makes sense for said person to nearly pass out, especially if he had breathing issues to start with, but such an effect is in fact exactly what is desired and hoped for by the gassing in the first place.
Thats why its USED.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs299.snc3/28601_123782457655112_100000700761364_167896_44548 0_n.jpg


Hasbinbad: Because its whats plants CRAVE!

[Hasbinbad]

..but WHY do they crave it??

[Gorgetrapper]

I have been gassed. And apparently you linked an article you didn't read.

I didn't link anything, i just quoted his message. After being exposed in CS gas for 10 minutes, your body is barely affected by the effects of the CS gas. I should know, there was little 'contest' to see who can stay in the longest and after you reach the 10 minute mark it didn't matter much. It's getting to that point which sucks.

[Taxi]

I didn't link anything, i just quoted his message. After being exposed in CS gas for 10 minutes, your body is barely affected by the effects of the CS gas. I should know, there was little 'contest' to see who can stay in the longest and after you reach the 10 minute mark it didn't matter much. It's getting to that point which sucks.

Clearly it wasnt the stuff we were exposed to, it wasnt at the same concentrated level or you have an unusually high tolerance for it. I experienced symptoms which are listed in this wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CS_gas

"The chemical reacts with moisture on the skin and in the eyes, causing a burning sensation and the immediate forceful and uncontrollable shutting of the eyes. Effects usually include tears streaming from the eyes, coughing, running nose full of mucus, burning in the nose and throat areas, disorientation, dizziness and restricted breathing. In highly concentrated doses it can also induce severe coughing and vomiting. Almost all of the immediate effects wear off in a matter of minutes."

I panicked at some point in the tight quebec streets because i couldnt breathe anymore. I was trying to suck air in, but the lungs were not taking anything in. That started happening about 20 seconds after I started breathing in a heavy cloud of CS gas. It can get dangerous because when people panic the only thing on their minds is getting out of the cloud so they can breath again, and it can lead to stampeding. In Quebec city there is alot of tight streets like you would see in some European cities, so the gas gets concentrated pretty bad in close quarters, thats part of how i experienced it.

You can say the 6 foot 4 guy was a pussy but i never heard such deep down vomiting and shortness of breath before or after i heard that guy alternate between puking and trying to breath in from his gas mask and he was built like a fridge. Maybe he had a condition, but everywhere around me i could see the effect described in the wiki article.

[Hasbinbad]

There is a lot to be said for the mental preparedness of individuals who KNOW #1 that they are about to be gassed and #2 the effects / what to expect.

An average person, out for a protest, is going to be effected a lot differently when surprise-attacked with a gas cannister, for example, than someone in a controlled military situation where individuals are being acclimated to the effects of CS gas.

This is indisputable.

[astarothel]

It really sounded like you saw a cop throw a canister of gas at a protester on TV and you made up a story about how you could dodge the gas by not being close to the guy it was aimed at.

You can dodge the gas by not being close to the guy it was aimed at.
It's called not being in the same area/street/block/quarter as him.

Plenty of civies were smart enough to manage that, either dipping out for the weekend from their homes/jobs, or when they saw the situation begin to deteriorate.

I will admit what I saw at QC shocked me, maybe because I was twenty years old at the time and didn't think it would get that far out of hand. That being said I continue to contend to this day that there is nothing at this particular juncture in time in the western world that necessitates violent protest, but that is just my belief for now. Do what thou wilt.

==

Aside: Anyone else interested to see how next years' G Summit in France goes? Sarkozy's promised it will be protest friendly and have 1/10 Canada's security budget, but I'll be damned if French students don't know how to throw a good riot.

[Taxi]

You can dodge the gas by not being close to the guy it was aimed at.
It's called not being in the same area/street/block/quarter as him.


Right. So i guess if i was "smart" and went to another neighboorhood than the one where the protests were and gave up my right to voice my opinion publicly then i wouldnt have been gassed. :rolleyes:

One other thing to keep in mind, banks could be targeted because of anger at the recent bailouts. Oxfam recently said that the money used to bail out banks could have eradicated extreme poverty off the face of the earth for 50 years. So although i dont think breaking windows is ever a good idea for a tactic or to make your point, i can understand where some of the anger might come from.

[astarothel]

Right. So i guess if i was "smart" and went to another neighboorhood than the one where the protests were and gave up my right to voice my opinion publicly then i wouldnt have been gassed. :rolleyes:


I guess if you were "smart" and went to another neighbourhood -- you know one where other protesters were -- and maintained your right to voice your opinion publicly there, then you wouldn't have been gassed.

Because clearly there weren't numerous other options around QC with protest groups that weren't being gassed. I mean obviously the only one that was available to voice your opinion publicly just coincidentally had people moving in on the security fence and perimeter. I mean obviously the only one that mattered was the one that got gassed, right? The one you coincidentally happened to be attached to. You, the great revolutionary Taxi. Hey look I can use an appropriate emoticon too: :rolleyes:

[Taxi]

I guess if you were "smart" and went to another neighbourhood -- you know one where other protesters were -- and maintained your right to voice your opinion publicly there, then you wouldn't have been gassed.

Because clearly there weren't numerous other options around QC with protest groups that weren't being gassed. I mean obviously the only one that was available to voice your opinion publicly just coincidentally had people moving in on the security fence and perimeter. I mean obviously the only one that mattered was the one that got gassed, right? The one you coincidentally happened to be attached to. You, the great revolutionary Taxi. Hey look I can use an appropriate emoticon too: :rolleyes:

lol wanting for Quebec/Canada to live up to their democratic ideals doesnt make me a great revolutionnary.... If the police are allowed to tell us when and where we are allowed the rights of the charter, then its just a piece of paper not worth wiping your ass with. Of course i know cops can block roads etc etc... but when its blantantly anti-democratic and done with the purpose of preventing people from peaceful association then people are justified in fighting back.

[astarothel]

http://www.youtube.com/user/templeofjohn#p/a/u/0/oq8rkP1O5dA

check out all those provocateurs. oh wait...
Perhaps all those people were simply misinformed as to what a security perimeter and fence is actually for?

Take another look at the grise films while you're at it. The officers there show some incredible restraint in some cases. The guy that goes right up to the line and feels out their riot shields?

Since you were there you'd have seen plenty of aggressors that were most definitely not police agitators. Those people cost you your democratic rights as much as any law enforcement officer present did.

[Taxi]

http://www.youtube.com/user/templeofjohn#p/a/u/0/oq8rkP1O5dA

check out all those provocateurs. oh wait...
Perhaps all those people were simply misinformed as to what a security perimeter and fence is actually for?

Take another look at the grise films while you're at it. The officers there show some incredible restraint in some cases. The guy that goes right up to the line and feels out their riot shields?

Since you were there you'd have seen plenty of aggressors that were most definitely not police agitators. Those people cost you your democratic rights as much as any law enforcement officer present did.

The fence itself was police provocation, but lets leave that aside for the moment.

I never said anyone breaking stuff is an undercover cop. But once you accept this excuse from the cops that they can start busting heads, arresting anyone because of a few who are breaking stuff, then you leave the door wide open to abuse from police and planting of provocateurs. I saw this pattern repeated over and over and over again.

There is no reason as to why a few people breaking stuff should cost us our democratic rights, they can just arrest those few people.

Heres one example:

At the Montreal Jazz festival, 5 people smash up a store window. The cops let them do as they please, and 30mins after theyve left, they round up people attending the event and arrest them en-masse, charge them with horses, put them in cattle pens after removing their shoes on a cold hard floor, cram them in cells for hours and release them without charge. Whats wrong with that picture? We would never accept that for any other event, why isnt the same logic applied to political gatherings than the one applied to commercial gatherings? If you think about it a bit, well theres not many answers to that question.

[ShadowWulf]

the recent bailouts. Oxfam recently said that the money used to bail out banks could have eradicated extreme poverty off the face of the earth for 50 years. So although i dont think breaking windows is ever a good idea for a tactic or to make your point, i can understand where some of the anger might come from.

http://www.un.org/rights/poverty/poverty1.htm
(From a 1997 UN report on this issue)
The additional costs of providing basic social services for all indeveloping countries is estimated at about US $40 billion a year over the next 10 years. This amount is less than 0.2 per cent of the world income of US$ 25 trillion. The sum needed to close the gap between the annual income of poor people and the minimum income at which they would no longer be poor is estimated at another US$ 40 billion a year. Thus, to provide universal access to basic social services and transfers to alleviate income poverty would cost roughly US$ 80 billion, or less than the combined net worth of the seven richest people in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

For the 2010 fiscal year, the president's base budget of the Department of Defense rose to $533.8 billion. Adding spending on "overseas contingency operations" brings the sum to $663.8 billion.[1][2]

When the budget was signed into law on October 28, 2009, the final size of the Department of Defense's budget was $680 billion, $16 billion more than President Obama had requested.[3][4] An additional $33 billion supplemental bill to support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan was expected to pass in the spring of 2010, but has been delayed by the House of Representatives after passing the Senate.[5][6] Defense-related expenditures outside of the Department of Defense constitute between $216 billion and $361 billion in additional spending, bringing the total for defense spending to between $880 billion and $1.03 trillion in fiscal year 2010.

And ill say it again, fuck you America.

But oh no we cant help, because that might be Sooooociaaaaaalismmmmmmm ohhh boogey man coming to get ya!

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs329.ash1/28601_123778120988879_100000700761364_167807_21761 56_n.jpg

Unfortunately ideas are so ingrained into the American psyche that only something totally spectacular, overwhelming and attention getting has any chance of being even moderately noticed. Hence the riots. The same applies to most of the western world with a few exceptions.
I will not condemn them for at least TRYING where most do nothing, their methods could definitely use some work however.

[Alawen Everywhere]

And all of this helps improve the world how?

I'd say the recent posts in this thread demonstrate that free speech is alive and well in both America and Canada. Both countries are so tolerant that most of the children smashing Starbuck's windows in their ninja pajamas won't even serve jail time, but instead will return safely to their suburban homes and dorm rooms paid for by daddy.

[mitic]

And all of this helps improve the world how?

I'd say the recent posts in this thread demonstrate that free speech is alive and well in both America and Canada. Both countries are so tolerant that most of the children smashing Starbuck's windows in their ninja pajamas won't even serve jail time, but instead will return safely to their suburban homes and dorm rooms paid for by daddy.

so speaking of free speech and the like, death penalty has been abolished in the usa yet?

[Alawen Everywhere]

so speaking of free speech and the like, death penalty has been abolished in the usa yet?

I think you already know the answer to that. That guy who beat his two-year-old stepdaughter to death in Texas because she wouldn't stop crying during the USA-Ghana game is definitely going to die.

I don't have a problem with that.

[Xenephex]

so speaking of free speech and the like, death penalty has been abolished in the usa yet?
Austria?

Don't worry, we'll never catch up.

[astarothel]

the actual "vote for nobody" mural is from my city of downtown Guelph, Ontario just around the corner from a Chinese food restaurant. :D

http://smallredbox.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/vote-for-nobody.jpg

[Alawen Everywhere]

Austria?

Don't worry, we'll never catch up.

Careful! The thread ends if you ask about his grandfather!

[mitic]

Austria?

Don't worry, we'll never catch up.

true that, i.e. the excellent austrian health insurance

Careful! The thread ends if you ask about his grandfather!

doubt it since my grandfather was italian as i am.

besides that, how many native american indians died to your genocide?

[Gorgetrapper]

besides that, how many native american indians died to your genocide?

Not enough, they're still around.

[astarothel]

how many native american indians died to your genocide?

You mean the one begun by the europeans dating back to the time of Melinche?

[Alawen Everywhere]

true that, i.e. the excellent austrian health insurance



doubt it since my grandfather was italian as i am.

besides that, how many native american indians died to your genocide?

Fascismo! Wow, Italian doesn't work so well for distancing yourself from... you know, that political party.

Since we're ducking responsibility based on heritage, I'm fourth generation German and Swedish. My people were dairy farmers and carpenters. Since immigrating, none of us have ever owned a slave or shot a Native American. And we were all in America in time to avoid belonging to... you know.

[mitic]

well alawen, you started it with my grandfather, not me ;)

[Alawen Everywhere]

well alawen, you started it with my grandfather, not me ;)

It was Xenephex who pointed out your citizenship, I just made a joke about it.

I'm not really into the whole "sins of our fathers" thing. We are responsible for our own actions, not theirs. None of us can go back in time and change things, but we can change the future. That's what I've been trying to talk about in this whole thread, but many seem determined to waste their lives with grudges and score keeping on past events, frequently very old events and thereby ensure that the future looks just like the worst of the past.

[mitic]

I'm not really into the whole "sins of our fathers" thing. We are responsible for our own actions, not theirs. None of us can go back in time and change things, but we can change the future. That's what I've been trying to talk about in this whole thread, but many seem determined to waste their lives with grudges and score keeping on past events, frequently very old events and thereby ensure that the future looks just like the worst of the past.

by changing the future u mean things like the following, rite?

I think you already know the answer to that. That guy who beat his two-year-old stepdaughter to death in Texas because she wouldn't stop crying during the USA-Ghana game is definitely going to die.

I don't have a problem with that.

i just lost my hopes completely about america :D

[Taxi]

I think you already know the answer to that. That guy who beat his two-year-old stepdaughter to death in Texas because she wouldn't stop crying during the USA-Ghana game is definitely going to die.

I don't have a problem with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

I dont have a problem with the death penalty, but only if a judge makes a mistake and kills someone that wasnt guilty, he has to die too. Fair enough?

[Erasong]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exonerated_death_row_inmates

I dont have a problem with the death penalty, but only if a judge makes a mistake and kills someone that wasnt guilty, he has to die too. Fair enough?

i support this.

[Alawen Everywhere]

There were 52 executions in America in 2009. There is an extensive appeal process and very few cases of alleged wrongful execution. This is not one of our major issues. Most Americans approve of capital punishment and this is a democracy.

[Xenephex]

There were 52 executions in America in 2009. There is an extensive appeal process and very few cases of alleged wrongful execution. This is not one of our major issues. Most Americans approve of capital punishment and this is a democracy.
For those who kill or molest children, I approve of putting them out in the general prison population.

[Cogwell]

There were 52 executions in America in 2009. There is an extensive appeal process and very few cases of alleged wrongful execution. This is not one of our major issues. Most Americans approve of capital punishment and this is a democracy.

1 of those 52 was fairly widely covered recently as a (by all outward appearances) innocent man. He was in Texas, of course, and was convicted of killing his 2 (?) young daughters by burning his own home. In hindsight, the state of Texas used extremely outdated and incorrect data and assumptions on how fires are started and spread in its investigation through which he was convicted, the man was a very loving father according to all who knew him, and went to his grave protesting his innocence.

If you feel that a 2% wrongful conviction rate is fine (and judging by releases through DNA evidence in recent years, that number is probably a lowball estimate), then consider the cost to taxpayers to execute as opposed to live imprisonment, and you have to come to the conclusion that it is only "not one of our major issues" because the media is too busy freaking out about some white girl that got killed to actually cover our judicial system in any meaningful manner.

[astarothel]

I dont have a problem with the death penalty, but only if a judge makes a mistake and kills someone that wasnt guilty, he has to die too. Fair enough?

Let's toss any jury that wrongly convicts someone to prison in for an equal amount of time too?

How about the judicial system simply addresses the fact that in many states it holds ridiculously low standards of transparency and accountability?

[Taxi]

Let's toss any jury that wrongly convicts someone to prison in for an equal amount of time too?

How about the judicial system simply addresses the fact that in many states it holds ridiculously low standards of transparency and accountability?

Serving time is not the same as getting killed. As bad as it must be to serve 10 years in jail when youre not guilty, certainly you can agree that its not as bad as dying?

If judges knew that if they sentence someone to death and its a wrongful conviction, they could face the same punishment in return, how many judges would push the button?

Of course i dont support the death penalty, im just trying to paint a picture.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Serving time is not the same as getting killed. As bad as it must be to serve 10 years in jail when youre not guilty, certainly you can agree that its not as bad as dying?

If judges knew that if they sentence someone to death and its a wrongful conviction, they could face the same punishment in return, how many judges would push the button?

Of course i dont support the death penalty, im just trying to paint a picture.

Personally, I'll take lethal injection over gang rape.

[ShadowWulf]

Personally, I'll take lethal injection over gang rape.

Its not so much rape as violent death. Marked men do not last very long in general pop.

[Daywolf]

Serving time is not the same as getting killed. As bad as it must be to serve 10 years in jail when youre not guilty, certainly you can agree that its not as bad as dying?
What, to Siberia? Heh no way. They gotta start the civil war first before we go peacefully… or I mean pry our guns from our cold dead hands. I think that would no doubt spill into Canada and Mexico as well. I mean even yesterday, they were trying to strike down our second amendment rights again; they want us to be more like Europe or it’s lackey Canada. So they (these globalists) try to set up laws to make our rights illegal, then to imprison us thinking we’ll just play along. Too many people will choose death and victory though, that’s a fact. We are not Canada and we have no love for the UN as has been exonerated in this thread. But for now it’s upheld, thought far from a 9-0 vote it should be, so for now…

So no, guilty or not, it does not matter. There is a rule of law and there is wrongful law. In the end, the death rate is 100% no matter what, applies to each person. Canada should stand up for it's own rights, choose liberty. I know it wont though, it'll only slip further, so it's a wasted breath and no one bothers to say it. Lots of big mouths to say against the US though, lots of hot air to spare. Is it 1984 yet?

[ShadowWulf]

So no, guilty or not, it does not matter. There is a rule of law and there is wrongful law. In the end, the death rate is 100% no matter what, applies to each person. Canada should stand up for it's own rights, choose liberty. I know it wont though, it'll only slip further, so it's a wasted breath and no one bothers to say it. Lots of big mouths to say against the US though, lots of hot air to spare. Is it 1984 yet?

What IS liberty? I am rather interested in your definition.

[Erasong]

interesting clip from an old new york times article. its a few paragraphs but worth the read. I am not in favor of the death penalty. I feel NO person is beyond redemption. Even for the most brutal crimes. Not saying that its easy or that we should be lenient, just saying it should never be ruled out entirely. Basically, i feel our entire justice system is itself fundamentally flawed. Privatizing prisons is terrible plain and simple. Profiting off of crimes as a way of life is as deplorable as commiting them. Here goes.




But from inside the criminal justice system, the whole debate about the death penalty can sometimes seem like a distraction. The reality is that for every person on death row, there are many more who will die before completing their sentences. They will die alone in their cells or in the prison yard. They will die from jailhouse violence or natural causes hastened by stressful conditions and substandard medical care.



The main causes of these virtual death sentences are three-strikes laws and mandatory minimum sentencing. Because of them, more and more people receive prison terms of 20 or 30 years or life with no chance of parole. In California, there are inmates serving life sentences for petty theft, receiving stolen property or possession of marijuana for sale. All over this country governments are spending more and more money on aging inmates - creating entire geriatric wards for prisoners no longer able to walk or talk, let alone maim or kill.



Long sentences are not rare. The next case I am likely to take to trial carries a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 years to life. Why? Because my client is charged with possessing more than four ounces of cocaine. Just about every public defender I know has a horror story about a client who was the victim of a long mandatory sentence. Almost no one else remembers these prisoners. They do not face the needle or the electric chair, so there is no debate about them.



Because of the complexity and the potential punishment, defendants in death penalty cases are in some jurisdictions afforded better than average lawyers and greater than average resources. Many appellate courts look more closely at a case when the defendant has been sentenced to die. And yet we still make mistakes - not a few, but many. In Illinois, there were more innocent death row inmates exonerated than guilty ones put to death. There is no reason to think the error rate is any lower in cases that receive less scrutiny

[Gorgetrapper]

I'd rather pay for the death penalty than have criminals who are in a prison for 30+ years getting food/water and shelter every day with OUR tax money, when it could easily be going to reputable charities to help homeless people in the US (fuck the other countries, they get more donations than we do here)

[mitic]

according to amnesty international, 90% of official death sentences have been executed worldwide (2009) in

#1: china
#2. iran
#3. irak
#4. saudi arabia
#5. usa
#6. yemen

[Taxi]

they want us to be more like Europe or it’s lackey Canada.

The ignorance of americans never ceases to amaze me.

[Hasbinbad]

Taxi, please qualify that statement with a "most."

[Taxi]

Taxi, please qualify that statement with a "most."

Of course i dont think all americans are ignorant :D

I linked democracy now! in this thread its certainly not because i think Amy Goodman knows nothing about the world.

I was talking about americans in general yeah.

[Hasbinbad]

There ARE a few of us who look around and hang our heads in shame..

It certainly is frustrating.

[Alawen Everywhere]

And then there are a few of us who have actually served our country and hold our heads high.

[ShadowWulf]

And then there are a few of us who have actually served our country and hold our heads high.

How, and why? Simple questions.

[Taxi]

And then there are a few of us who have actually served our country and hold our heads high.

Thats right, hold that head high!

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JjGd1C6E4ys/0.jpg

[mitic]

How, and why? Simple questions.

if they served to defend their direct boundaries then i would have understood it (like fighting those mustached people with sombreros, armed with pitchforks and the like) ...but going out to fight other countries thousands of miles away and being proud of it is just the outcome of successful propaganda

[Gorgetrapper]

You guys can handle Hitler all you want then!

[Taxi]

You guys can handle Hitler all you want then!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRMeRVHq03o

[Hasbinbad]

Why is paying taxes not "serving ones country" ?

Bonus question:
Why is getting paid for services rendered called "serving" ?

edit: ok so upon rereading this, i see the silliness of the semantics in the bonus question.. but seriously people throw around the term "serving my country" as if its some great selfless act to get paid and get medical benefits and all kinds of other bennies for something that is voluntary, and I just think it's cute.

[mitic]

You guys can handle Hitler all you want then!

comparing a police state in the 1940ies with a federal republic in 2010...there is something wrong rite here.

[Alawen Everywhere]

How, and why? Simple questions.

United States Marine Corps. My dad was in the navy and died from chemicals (agent orange) he was exposed to in Vietnam. His dad was in the navy in World War II and in Korea. I am a veteran son of a veteran son of a veteran. Both of them are now buried in the Fort Snelling National Cemetery. (My grandpa died this spring.) I expect to join them in 50 or 60 years.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Why is paying taxes not "serving ones country" ?

Bonus question:
Why is getting paid for services rendered called "serving" ?

edit: ok so upon rereading this, i see the silliness of the semantics in the bonus question.. but seriously people throw around the term "serving my country" as if its some great selfless act to get paid and get medical benefits and all kinds of other bennies for something that is voluntary, and I just think it's cute.

It's nice that you live in a country where you get to have opinions like that and vocalize them in public, isn't it? Here's a 2010 pay chart (http://www.navycs.com/2010-military-pay-chart.html). Obama just made the GI bill not completely suck again recently, so that compensation is worthwhile again. VA hospitals are still awful.

Now tell me how much I'd have to pay you to put your life on the line.

Edit: Blaine just reminded me that we got taxed on our housing and all our benefits and those are valued way above market so we'd end up with a few hundred bucks a month. The only way you make much is if you're deployed to a war zone.

[Taxi]

Now tell me how much I'd have to pay you to put your life on the line.

When the US army comes up north here on some bogus terror alert to come and steal our water and kill my nephew, thats when ill put my life on the line, and nobody is gonna need to pay me nothing.

[Gorgetrapper]

It's nice that you live in a country where you get to have opinions like that and vocalize them in public, isn't it? Here's a 2010 pay chart (http://www.navycs.com/2010-military-pay-chart.html).
Now tell me how much I'd have to pay you to put your life on the line.

You can't pay any of these ungrateful pricks anything to put their life on the line.

[Gorgetrapper]

When the US army comes up north here on some bogus terror alert to come and steal our water and kill my nephew, thats when ill put my life on the line, and nobody is gonna need to pay me nothing.

Instead of preventing an issue, you would rather wait until something happens and THEN scream patriotism.

"I don't care about anything else in the world, as long as it doesn't happen to me I don't care!"

"You killed my 'soandso' omg rage i'm going to kill you now"

[Taxi]

Instead of preventing an issue, you would rather wait until something happens and THEN scream patriotism.

"I don't care about anything else in the world, as long as it doesn't happen to me I don't care!"

"You killed my 'soandso' omg rage i'm going to kill you now"

Thats what ive been doing in this thread... prevention. Thats what ive been doing for most of my adult life. But deep down i think its a waste of effort, mainstreet america is hopelessly lost in Foxnewsland. The US is draining its water at a crazy rate and when theyll run out of it theyre just gonna come here and take it, like theyre doing now with the oil in the middle east. Its like a blackhole folding on itself and Canada is going to get swallowed alongside it.

This quote from George Orwell illustrates my feelings at this point in time:

Everything one writes now is overshadowed by this ghastly feeling that we are rushing towards a precipice and, though we shan't actually prevent ourselves or anyone else from going over, must put up some sort of fight.