We need a clarification of "bug abusing" ruling... desperately

[Nordenwatch]

In the "Server Rules" thread posted, this is included:

- If you witness, discover or hear of an exploit it becomes your responsibility to report that exploit. Some exploits could include: Loot dropping improperly for large monetary gain, pathing exploit allowing you kill NPCs at ease, or a quest rewarding you experience and giving you back the quest item to turn it in over and over for experience. We ask for everyone’s cooperation in this matter. It is important for us to stomp out any issues as quickly as we can so that things stay legit.

The problem I find is that there is no definitive way to prove that something is an exploit or an intended part of the server.

My favourite example and the one I "abuse" the most personally is the Necromancer heal ability. I have read the bug thread forums and this has been revealed to be an exploit of sorts. Are we not allowed to use this because it is an "exploit"? Should we be reporting people who do?

What about the recent drama around the dropping of the Lockets of Escape? They were not supposed to be dropping and was obviously a bug that was exploited. Should people be punished for this?

Where do we draw the line? I don't want to be banned for using the necro heal that 90% of necros use on this server, but I think that the monopolization of the Locket of Escape drop is a clear example of exploiting a bug.

[maverixdamighty]

In the "Server Rules" thread posted, this is included:



The problem I find is that there is no definitive way to prove that something is an exploit or an intended part of the server.

My favourite example and the one I "abuse" the most personally is the Necromancer heal ability. I have read the bug thread forums and this has been revealed to be an exploit of sorts. Are we not allowed to use this because it is an "exploit"? Should we be reporting people who do?

What about the recent drama around the dropping of the Lockets of Escape? They were not supposed to be dropping and was obviously a bug that was exploited. Should people be punished for this?

Where do we draw the line? I don't want to be banned for using the necro heal that 90% of necros use on this server, but I think that the monopolization of the Locket of Escape drop is a clear example of exploiting a bug.

lockets were reported as soon as it was discovered. not sure how that is an exploit.

[Nordenwatch]

lockets were reported as soon as it was discovered. not sure how that is an exploit.

So as long as you report it you can do whatever afterwards? What happened to all the lockets that dropped?

[maverixdamighty]

So as long as you report it you can do whatever afterwards? What happened to all the lockets that dropped?

no idea, but i think if what i heard was correct and they reported each one that dropped then they went above and beyond the requirements.

[KotBK]

This has already been discussed and cried about at length in other threads with GMs/Staff already having tended to it, please give it a rest as you just appear overly butthurt and pathetic as it has been done with for quite some time.

[Nordenwatch]

This has already been discussed and cried about at length in other threads with GMs/Staff already having tended to it, please give it a rest as you just appear overly butthurt and pathetic as it has been done with for quite some time.

? Its not about the lockets, I used them as an example and you guys are jumping all over it. I'm wondering what the general rule on BUG EXPLOITING is, and if they can clarify it.

[Swish]

Anyone playing the game doing things they shouldn't be allowed to do (manipulating pathing etc) knows they're doing it.

Its that grey middle ground. Banking through the walls etc, I've been at it for a year but if it was never fixed on live then why should there be a problem with it? Maybe that's a precedent... did whatever the bug happens to be get fixed on the Live timeline?

[Dualform]

This has already been discussed and cried about at length in other threads with GMs/Staff already having tended to it, please give it a rest as you just appear overly butthurt and pathetic as it has been done with for quite some time.
Please leave this community, asap

[Nocte]

What is this 'necro heal' thing I'm hearing about?

[Swish]

Not the heal other dude, cancel magic yourself to take the dot away? Hardly worth bothering with...just lifetap the next mob if its a big deal.

[Tecmos Deception]

I PMed Sirken recently when they were trying to scare people straight with exploiting and punishment announcements and stuff.

I specifically asked about bugging through locked doors sans rogue/key, the lev trick, and a handful of other "tricks" that almost certainly weren't intended/expected by the EQ or p99 devs... but still exist, go unchanged, and are used frequently.

rule of thumb, if theres 0 risk to you, its probably not legit.


That doesn't shed any light on a situation like the lockets, of course, because even if someone reports the bugged drop... what are they supposed to do? Stop trying to get items that ARE supposed to still be dropping and then someone else just comes in and gets a bunch of lockets and then maybe it gets decided that it was ok that some more lockets dropped? So you're SOL for trying to follow some perceived but never specifically enumerated spirit of the rules while some douche is 200k richer because he did something questionable and no one ended up giving a shit? Yeah, right.

[Swish]

People still lev'ing up that tree to get to Dhamp?

[Nocte]

People still lev'ing up that tree to get to Dhamp?

That's a bug? I thought it was just a good use of terrain objects.

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah. And this is what Norden is asking about.

When does doing something clever (or just doing what you normally do but there is something different in the game even though you yourself aren't doing anything differently, whatever) go from "being innovative and good at the game" to "exploiting unintended design/implementation of the game"? Nobody knows.

[Itap]

The necro heal/cancel magic has been discussed thoroughly in another thread. Since it's been addressed and brought to devs attention, I feel it's legit to use. It's like item recharging, it trivializes certain things, but the devs choose not fix the code to change it.

[Lazortag]

If the bug existed in classic, I could understand it not being considered an exploit (unless it's really egregious like a dupe bug). You can get an eye of zomm through certain locked doors on here, but that was possible in classic, so I don't think that should be considered an exploit. I agree there really needs to be some clarification as to what's against the rules and what isn't.
I think what's important is that people report exploits and benefit in no way from them, unless the staff says it's okay. If an item is dropping that shouldn't be, the staff should remove those items afterwards - no one should be punished unless they benefited from those items dropping (either by selling them, using them, recharging with them, etc.). Just my thoughts.

[Lorraine]

Most of the times, this is a grey area - one could say it falls into the 'moral code' of individuals. You're asking people on the internet to adhere and abide to a certain number of 'unwritten rules'. The first guy plays along. The second guy plays along. But there will always be someone down this chain, sooner or later, who simply says 'screw it' and goes on doing what he wants to do it. And suddenly you have pretty much everyone doing it, simply because they 'don't want to miss out'.

Were small races meant to have Wallhack? Being able to actually SEE what is going in in certain parts of a dungeon you don't have 'visuals' on - also imagine what kind of advantage this is in red, while planning a group vs group pvp ambush/guerilla tactic.
Were small races/illusions meant to actually be able to sneak past The Hole locked rock? (iirc people used a similar tactic to 'bypass' a big part of Siren's Grotto via duck/crouch and camp).
How about intentionally summoning an Eye of Zomm inside a wall, so as to make it appear next to the zone line, and being able to invite+summon people straight to the point you currently are?

What classifices as "clever use of ingame mechanics" and what as "plain exploiting" - will almost always be grounds for debate (even in the eyes of the Guide/GM moderation here, you will have/find people who disagree with different things).

Remember this?
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5813/pictureroom.jpg

[Byrjun]

I think what's important is that people report exploits and benefit in no way from them, unless the staff says it's okay. If an item is dropping that shouldn't be, the staff should remove those items afterwards - no one should be punished unless they benefited from those items dropping (either by selling them, using them, recharging with them, etc.). Just my thoughts.

Well, I agree and this is also "classic." This kind of stuff happened on live. A good example is when uber items were accidentally dropping off trash in Skyshrine for the first week or so of Velious. The items were quickly removed - completely. I remember there was at least a sword that was never discovered to drop from anything else after that.

[Silo69]

In the "Server Rules" thread posted, this is included:



The problem I find is that there is no definitive way to prove that something is an exploit or an intended part of the server.

My favourite example and the one I "abuse" the most personally is the Necromancer heal ability. I have read the bug thread forums and this has been revealed to be an exploit of sorts. Are we not allowed to use this because it is an "exploit"? Should we be reporting people who do?

What about the recent drama around the dropping of the Lockets of Escape? They were not supposed to be dropping and was obviously a bug that was exploited. Should people be punished for this?

Where do we draw the line? I don't want to be banned for using the necro heal that 90% of necros use on this server, but I think that the monopolization of the Locket of Escape drop is a clear example of exploiting a bug.

necro heal gets nerfed late SoV

we already went over this on the bug forum, its not an exploit it gets fixed later just like fd just recently got fixed


get over yourself because you don't play your necro as your main anymore...

[Nordenwatch]

necro heal gets nerfed late SoV

we already went over this on the bug forum, its not an exploit it gets fixed later just like fd just recently got fixed


get over yourself because you don't play your necro as your main anymore...

Whether I play my necro as my main anymore has nothing to do with the discussion. I'm simply using examples of bugs that have been considered "exploits" in the past to make a point that there is NO clear line and the ruling in this area is extremely vague.

[Handull]

something no one really mentioned is pathing "exploits". sometimes its easy to agree its an exploit (dancing back and forth from one spot to the next and the mob does a whole new path to reach you), but what if just running big circles does this same thing, now even though you can/are running in legit circles to avoid the mob, the mob is still bugging out visually, so are you exploiting? when a mob naturally will path into a wall when u run from one area to another, is that an exploit? are you just not allowed to pull that mob from A to B because the code is such shit as to prevent "normal" pathing there?

while it is all debatable, the key is to just use common sense. the shit gms will likely ban you for is duping, infinite farming, warping, etc. less likely shit is all that middle ground, but avoid it if you really want to play it safe.

in a way it all boils down to the "serious" issue of illegally downloading copyrighted stuff and getting in trouble for it. How can clicking a mouse a few times be illegal in the eyes of the law? But in the end you know what is wrong and what is right. And for that stuff in the middle that is unclear, petition/bug-report/exploit-forum it and then go about your day. Especially if you make it an exploit forum thread the gms will likely either ignore you for stupidity in reporting a non-issue, tell you how cleaver you are and keep on doing whatever sweet strat you found, or tell you you've found a bug and should stop immediately while they fix it. That's just my guess.

[Sithel1988]

should we be reporting people who do?


this isnt communist china or gestapo germany. just play the dam game. if you are looking for more dumb things to worry about. politics is right up your alley.

[Nordenwatch]

should we be reporting people who do?


this isnt communist china or gestapo germany. just play the dam game. if you are looking for more dumb things to worry about. politics is right up your alley.

If you witness, discover or hear of an exploit it becomes your responsibility to report that exploit. Some exploits could include: Loot dropping improperly for large monetary gain, pathing exploit allowing you kill NPCs at ease, or a quest rewarding you experience and giving you back the quest item to turn it in over and over for experience. We ask for everyone’s cooperation in this matter. It is important for us to stomp out any issues as quickly as we can so that things stay legit. to report that exploit. Some exploits could include: Loot dropping improperly for large monetary gain, pathing exploit allowing you kill NPCs at ease, or a quest rewarding you experience and giving you back the quest item to turn it in over and over for experience. We ask for everyone’s cooperation in this matter. It is important for us to stomp out any issues as quickly as we can so that things stay legit.

[Sithel1988]

there seems to be some men in uniform knocking at my door. BRB............................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .........................