Race/Class xp penalties and Velious

[korzek]

When the exp penalties are taken away what happens to the characters that already have the extra stored exp from having the penalty?

Say a 50 troll SK and the patch hits does he stay lv 50 or does he get boosted to 54 or so?

[Thulack]

Nothing happens. It just means from that point on there is no penalty. There is no "stored" xp.

[Shizzam]

lul

[korzek]

Hmm was reading:
http://wiki.project1999.org/Game_Mechanics

and the way I seen leveling due to group mechanics with classes and races with penalties had a bigger xp pool to fill. Such as one example given was:
A human monk with 10,000,000xp is level 20.
A halfling warrior with 10,000,000xp is level 22
A troll shadowknight with 10,000,000xp is level 18

sooo if you took the exp penalties off they would have an huge reserve of extra exp.

[Ele]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

January 14, 2001

Hello all,

Since the launch of EverQuest: The Scars of Velious, the EverQuest Live team has been working on a number of things, from addressing issues in Velious to adding additional content to other portions of the world. At this same time, we've been working towards a point where we can stop tweaking class-based abilities, and declare with confidence that they are as "balanced" as we can make them.

It is a foregone conclusion that the diversity of EverQuest's population will never let us reach a point where everyone will be perfectly satisfied with their class's abilities, as nearly every change we make tends to bother some people while pleasing others. Still, we are confident that we can reach a point where problems in our current game systems can be reduced to the point that those left are either negligible in their impact, or offset inversely by a similar problem affecting gameplay in an opposite direction. We're nearly there, but following heated debate and the review of material and opinions sent in by the players, we've decided to make some exciting and unprecedented changes to a game system that has remained intact since release: the experience system itself.

While the EverQuest Message-board FAQ states that the experience system is not subject to post-production changes, it also explains that as developers of an ongoing MMORPG in a dynamic world, there are times that we need to be flexible and address issues as necessary. Though it has always been our goal to avoid changes to core systems whenever possible, our additional goal of finalizing class balance takes precedence in this case.

We're going to depart from our usual method of releasing information by giving everyone some specific information in regards to how these systems currently work, and how they will work after the patch. It is very important to us that everyone understands our goals, and the fact that these changes are helpful to all of the players. We can only do that by giving you the details necessary for you to draw your own conclusions.

[...]

Experience Penalties - Description

I think that it would be appropriate to say that most players are aware that there are different experience requirements for advancement based upon the race and class you choose to play. Ogres, for instance, require more experience to level than Halflings, and Shadowknights require more experience to level than Warriors. As such, an Ogre Shadowknight requires FAR more experience to level than a Halfling Warrior does. What some people have discovered is that when in a group, everyone shares in this penalty. Before getting into our plan, I think that its important to talk about what our goals were regarding experience penalties and the group sharing in that penalty.

When EverQuest player characters were being designed, it was immediately apparent that some races and classes would be more powerful than others given versatility and other factors. Later, it came to light that the concept of being "more powerful" began to break down at the upper levels, given that everyone capped at the same level. We could not let any one race or class be immensely more powerful than another at that final point, as it would essentially put parts of the game off limits to those who chose the less powerful classes. While we did a good job of making races vary in power, but not so much as to be unbalancing, the same could not be said for classes. Still, though classes would be roughly equivalent in regard to the compelling reason to play them through versatility, the experience penalties were kept.

In regards to the sharing of the experience penalty, it was apparent in beta, before the penalty was shared, that those playing characters without an experience penalty leveled faster than those that did. It was obvious that this would occur, but it was to the extreme that a group of friends, all playing together, would become separated to the point that they could no longer group efficiently in the mid to upper-mid levels. So we chose to distribute experience in the group on the basis of the total experience of each member rather than the level, in order to keep groups together.

As such, a level 20 Troll SK, having more experience total than a Human Wizard of the same level, would get more experience from each kill, while the total experience for the kill was unchanged. Essentially, the SK would take part of the Wizard's share were everything distributed equally to begin with.

Experience Penalties - Resolutions

Over the past week the EverQuest team has been considering experience penalties in all their forms. We had many meetings where the issue was hotly debated from both sides. We had to consider not only the effect on the individualplayer, but also the effect of any changes on the game as a whole. Eventually, we nearly unanimously decided the following:


1. Race-based penalties are appropriate. An ogre, for instance, does indeed make a better warrior than a halfling. It is not so little that the faction and size problems make up for it, and not so much that it is really unbalancing at upper levels, but enough that the penalty should apply. Secondly, the penalty is not so severe (compared with class-based penalties) that it would cause groups to break up on the journey from one to sixty due to level differences.

2. Class-based penalties are not appropriate. Classes are roughly equivalent in power throughout the level ranges, and the versatility does not make up for that penalty. In fact, the majority of changes made to classes in the name of balance in the last year were based on the assumption that, at the high end, each class should still be roughly as needed and balanced as any other.

3. Penalties, in any form, should not be shared with the group. Players know that no one class is immensely more powerful/valuable than another, and as such it is not fair to ask them to share a burden. If classes with penalties were really more powerful or valuable than the other classes, then it might be right, but that isn't the case here. Furthermore, sharing of penalties causes people to reject potential group members on the basis of them "sucking" too much experience.

4. We're going to fix it.

5. Class-based experience bonuses (which warriors and rogues get) are also not appropriate, as they cannot be so if penalties are not. However, we've decided to leave this as-is, since the bonus is not so severe as to be unbalancing. Bottom line: we don't feel the bonus is enough to warrant a fix that could be interpreted as a 'nerf'.


Experience Penalties - Implementation

Though people often refer to the class-based penalties as the "Hybrid Penalty", most classes have a penalty. Hybrids just have the largest. A hybrid requires 40% more experience to level than standard, Monks require 20% more, and Intelligence casters require 10% additional experience.

Unfortunately, we cannot change the experience tables themselves without running each character (which number in the tens of millions) through an "Experience Converter" without existing players changing levels spontaneously. While some might argue that we should grant free levels to everyone with a penalty, that would not be in the best interest of gameplay. After all, who would want a paladin with level 40 skills (skills in the player-sense, rather than the character-sense) in your level 60 group tomorrow? Everyone earns his or her experience under the rules that exist at the time.

This means that we must address the penalty differently: basically, for every kill, after all grouping bonuses and zone bonuses are applied, the experience will be split up according to level, rather than experience. For those classes that do not have a penalty, they will then be given that share. Those classes that have a penalty will get their share, multiplied by their experience penalty. Essentially we are creating extra experience to give to those with a penalty after everyone else has gotten their share.

Since penalties are always a value over "1", this results in the creation of additional experience. And, since shares are determined by level rather than total experience as before, a character will get just as much experience for a kill based upon the size and level of the group, regardless of the class makeup. Finally, everyone in the group gains experience at a faster rate because we're creating the additional experience for those with penalties out of thin air, rather than taking it from other members of the group. That means that after implementation, those without penalties will get more experience for every kill than they would have if they ever grouped with a class with a penalty.

Now you'll notice that we are dividing up experience based upon the LEVEL makeup of the group. For instance, if a level 20 and a level 21 group together, the level 21 will get more experience per kill. That is however only fair since the level 21 does actually contribute more value to the group.

There is a problem, however, with this 'new' formula. Death penalties are currently based off of the level before your current one. Secondly, everyone suffers the same numeric experience loss on death as anyone else of their race, regardless of class or class-based experience penalties. What this means is: if I am a cleric, and you are an SK of the same level and race, we both die and lose the same numeric value of experience (Example: 100,000 experience points). When we go back to recover from death, you as the SK will get your 100,000 points back faster than I will as a cleric, since all of the experience you get is multiplied by your class-penalty (1.4). Essentially, I lose and gain experience at 1.0, but you lose at 1.0, and gain at 1.4.

This is a balance issue we decided was also necessary to address. If we are going to make the statement that class experience penalties should not exist, we then have to do it on both ends (with exception to the two classes that we've decided to leave as-is). As such, rather than losing the same numeric value, loss on death will ALSO be multiplied by the experience penalty. Since everyone currently loses experience as if they are a warrior of their own race, we do not want anyone to lose more relative experience (e.g. experience such that recovery from death is more difficult). Hence, we further multiply the experience loss on death by the class experience modifier for warriors (0.9).

In our example above, my cleric would lose 90,000 XP on death at my level (Same as before since clerics do not have an XP penalty), but your SK will lose 126,000 XP (Same as before, plus something to offset the experience gain bonus). Death is, however, still easier to recover from for both classes since we create experience out of thin air for every kill.

We felt that it was important to announce this as well since those with penalties will see a larger portion of their "bubble" lost upon a death, but will now recover that experience much faster. It's VERY important to understand this. Again, if you play a class that gets a bonus now when you make a kill, you will also lose more due to death. Please remember this when, after your first death post-patch, you see a greater experience loss on your screen: you are ALSO gaining more experience for each kill.

Summary

The changes that we are making in the next patch should have a profound impact upon the game:


Classes no longer have a true class-based experience penalty, making it easier for people to play the class that they want to play, rather than the class that they feel compelled to play due to faster advancement.

Race based penalties are no longer shared with the group, and in truth are not severe enough to greatly impact the advancement speed of any particular race. Even the race with the worst penalty will level no slower than a human monk does now, and in truth will level faster due to the other changes that went in.

The grouping bonus increase, in addition to the other changes, makes grouping much more efficient, without reducing the current efficiency of soloing for those who prefer that route.

Experience modifiers turned up in the other zones should encourage people to spread out, have more fun, and allow those staying behind in other areas to have more fun themselves since the area is less crowded.

All players, assuming that they have an experience penalty, or ever group with anyone who does, will level faster.


Many of these changes are quite involved in regards to their implementation, and as such we want to be sure that everyone interested understands them. Alan "Absor" VanCouvering will be happy to answer any questions that you may have on the EverQuest Message boards. Until then, we sincerely hope that these changes will help all players, whether "uber" or "causal", experience and enjoy EverQuest to their greatest potential.

For Brad McQuaid, Jeff Butler, and every dedicated member of the EverQuest Team,


Gordon Wrinn
Associate Producer, EQLive
Sony Online Entertainment

[korzek]

Thanks soo much for that post, for people tl;dr:

Exp for classes with penalties will now also gain there penalty as a bonus so in all it'll be the same as other classes. Say a mob gives 100 xp the human SK will get 60 xp then a bonus 40 xp on kill.

Race penalties stay in velious.

Penalties are no longer shared among the group. So say a duo (Troll and human) stay group from 1 to 60 the human will get there a level or two sooner.

Death penalties are more harsh for people that had xp penalties so they wont gain more than they loss if revived.